I remember when I was young, I was taught that there was a place called “Abraham’s Bosom.” The way it was explained to me made perfect sense at the time. You go to heaven if you trust in Christ. You go to hell if you don’t. People go to heaven because Christ’s atonement on the cross paid for their sins. God cannot be in the presence of sin (Hab. 1:13). Therefore, those who are covered by Christ’s death can be in the presence of God. Those who are not, cannot.
So far so good? But there is a problem: what about all God’s people who came before Christ’s death? What about Abraham, Moses, David, and Isaiah? According to the theory, they were not yet covered by Christ blood. Conclusion: they, before Christ’s death, were not in the presence of God. They were somewhere else waiting for their sins to be covered.
This “somewhere else” was known as “Abraham’s Bosom.” Think “Protestant Purgatory” or something like that. Abraham’s Bosom existed as a holding tank for God’s people until Christ’s death on the cross. Once the atonement was made, Abraham’s Bosom it was vacated as all its occupants were ushered into God’s presence in heaven.
The name “Abraham’s Bosom” came from the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16. “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried” (Luke 16:22). Notice, this parable was given before Christ’s atonement. Therefore, people have said that this must be the place, between heaven and hell, that pre-Cross saints went to.
Why there is no such thing as Abraham’s Bosom
As nice and tidy as that might sound theologically and biblically, it does not really work. There is no such place as Abraham’s Bosom.
First, the idea that God cannot be in the presence of sin is untenable.
The passage in Hab. 1:13 simply means that God is too pure to approve sin. It has nothing to do with sin or evil being in God’s presence. Here are some of the reasons:
- After the fall, we find God walking in the Eden with Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:8).
- Satan himself can be in God’s presence. In Job 1:6, we see Satan presenting himself before God (see also 1 Chron 18:18-21; Rev. 12:10).
- Christians, who are still sinners (1 John 1:8), are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Obviously the Holy Spirit must be able to be in the presence of sin.
- Christ, God incarnate, was in the presence of sin the whole time he walked the earth (John 1:14). He was even carried in the womb of a sinner!
Second, the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus does not teach that “Abraham’s Bosom” is a separate heaven.
In the parable, Christ is confronting the religious leaders’ bad theology. They were lovers of money (Luke 16:14). They believed that being rich and healthy was a sign that God was on your side. If you were poor and sick then God was not with you. In the parable, the rich man, whom all the Pharisees thought was the best Jew with great rewards waiting for him in heaven, found himself in torment in Hell. The poor sick man, who was, in the mind of the Pharisees, a bad Jew, was ushered by the angels to Abraham’s “side” or “bosom.” The idea is not ontological (dealing with a physical place), but relational. To be at one’s side or bosom represented the closest place of fellowship one could have with another. The one who the Pharisees believed was not a good child of Abraham winds up at the closest place of fellowship that there is—Abraham’s bosom. Christ was being rhetorical. The rich man is unnamed and forgotten forever. Lazarus’ name means “God helps”. The rich man dies and is buried. The poor man dies and is carried by the angels. The rich man goes to hell, “far away” from Abraham (Luke 16:23). The poor man goes to Abraham’s side, in heaven.
Conclusion
Saints in the Old Testament did not need a special dispensation. God can be in the presence of sin. If he could not be in the presence of sin, we are in big trouble. Nevertheless, they were forgiven in anticipation of Christ’s atonement. When David, Abraham, Moses, and other Old Testament saints died, they immediately went into the presence of God on the bases of Christ’s shed blood, though yet future.
Romans 3:24-26
“Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”
335 replies to "The Myth of “Abraham’s Bosom”"
Jay,
Is 1Chr.21:17 poetry? But see 1Chr.17:7 – David tends 1 flock, then another. Jer.25:34/see Jer.23:2-4; Eze.34/Eze.34:31. You say it is childish to be a literalist – so with a child’s faith I believe every word from my Father. To comprehend spiritual matters, locales, etc… using earthy perspectives (common sense) is impossible (John 3:12). To explain the spiritual using the earthly, most difficult. Trust in the Lord … lean not …
Consciousness & Ecc.9:5&10: Solomon advised epicurean living (Ecc.8 & 9:6&7), displayed no wisdom in disobeying God’s marriage ordinances, unwisely pursued strong drink, was a hedonist pursuing the fullest life, built himself a better house than the Lord’s, built temples to foreign gods, his many wives led him astray, he feared death (it meant he would lose all he had under the sun), did not believe in afterlife; He, like all Israel after the flesh, misunderstood wisdom (he’s an antitype of the covering cherub, making the same mistakes). Solomon had fleshy wisdom – Pharisees embraced his ideas. As Sampson “after the flesh” had great physical strength, but was weak in self-control (spiritual strength), so Solomon was given great earthly wisdom (managerial skills), but lacked spiritual wisdom (brotherly kindness). Rehoboam’s bad decision proves that. My point: Solomon was not spiritual; he only understood the “here & now”. His emphasis, therefore, was on the present – enjoy life. I’m not taking his afterlife advice any more than I would Job’s friends’ advice – all unrighteous souls will be turned into the LoF. The smoke of their TORMENT will rise 4ever & ever.
Death is the equalizer: These kings on thrones may not be men. I personally believe them to be nephilim &/or their fallen angel sires.
Sheol & Abaddon are not the same. Sheol = the abode of Death & the dead. The firstborn of Death is Destruction (Destroyer/Abaddon). The words “destruction” & “corruption” are highly confused in English translations. They…
are equivalent.
Patrick said “mistaken to mean souls are, by definition, living; but the soul is living because it has received God’s breath. It is the Spirit that makes alive.” You seem to be saying that nephesh is only alive because of the spirit. I disagree. I am saying that nephesh is by definition living. Animals are said to have nephesh (Gen 1:20; Gen 1:30; Prov 12:10), but God didn’t breath on them. Animals have no spirit, only man is tripartite made in image of God. Patrick said “vigorous part of chai (life) comes from the ruahk.” Chai is also used of the animal world (Gen 1:20; Gen 1:25; Gen 6:19; too many to list- KJV translates chai as beast 73x). Animals do have breath, as mammals breath air with lungs, but they do not have spirit. Thus since animals have nephesh and animals have chai, but animals do not have spirit; then nephesh does NOT derive its life from spirit. Point being life and nephesh in people is not dependant on the spirit. Rauch and nephesh are 2 different things, I don’t see the connection that you are trying to make. What verse leans you to think that nephesh w/o rauch is dead?
Patrick said “A sleeping soul is a dead soul.” Again I totally agree, except the “sleeping” part is metaphor. It is a euphemism. These are those unflagged figures of speech, not literal sleeping. Sleeping people still have thoughts and knowledge. It is illegal to kill and bury a sleeping a sleeping person. Where did you get the mooth nephesh from? I can’t find it. I feel that is oxymoron.
Patrick said “spirit has no good/evil nature.” I disagree the spirit part of man is Godlike and without sin. Gal 5:17 As the flesh is fallen, the
spirit of believers is not prone to evil. 1Pet 1:23 and 1 John 3:9 exemplify that sin does not come from the spirit. However, this is only applicable for believers, because only believers have a living spirit as a new creation. The spirit of the rest of humanity is literally, ontologically dead.
Sorry, i’m way behind on…
Now, if you develop this tripartite insight theologically into traducianism, you are well on your way in understanding this on-going process which will enhance the meaning of First Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” (ASV)
Jay,
pst 148 – Do we HAVE eternal life: Whom he foreknew… The perfect pattern of who we will be in Messiah (conformed to His image) is predestined – a done deal. This is the only way to get over the eternal aspect of our lives as far as I know. I can handle everlasting (beginning, but no end), but it is difficult for me to grasp my own eternal nature, unless it’s God’s foreknowledge of me. Eternal & everlasting are used interchangeably in Scripture. Not sure how to handle that one, because, to me, there is a HUGE difference. What is your take on that one?
Excellent question about 1Thes 4:14! I take 1&2Thes as tribulation books. The Thessalonians were upset because of martyrdoms going on. Only until you acknowledge those resting under the altar in heaven can you realize Paul is smack-on correct. Martyrs return with Messiah. A good indication of who God considers His witnesses under the altar! Graves are yet to be opened, but the 7th (last) trump will sound one day and THEN will be brought to pass the (OT) saying, “… oh HADES, were is your victory? (1Cor.15:55)” In other words, Hades will prevail over dead (non-martyred) Church souls until the the last trump sounds.
YOU are part of the dry bones, because YOU are a part of Israel, right? Don’t go Replacement on me now! If those (dead) bones ever rejected Messiah, then they never were a part of Israel, don’t you agree?
God hasn’t reneged on His promise, but those souls are in AB – awaiting the promise. He’s not slack. The twinkle is the amount of time it takes all to receive the Spirit. Bodies are reassembled, God calls for souls and breath, And bam! in a twinkle we are awake & standing. Much of what you have said figuratively I would not necessarily dismiss – I believe there is a figurative aspect as well, but the literal holds the meat & potatoes. The figurative, to me, is like icing on the cake. First the literal, then the figurative that complies.
I am a few posts behind you – hope you can…
Jay,
You said, “dead rise at the same time the living are caught up”. See warning in 1The.4:13-15. The dead PRECEDE the living. Not by only a twinkle(!) – that’s the split-second needed to receive the Spirit. Check out the word “then (epeita)” in 1The.4:17. Epeita can means 2,000+ yrs (1Cor.15:23). “Twinkle/then” lends immediacy that conflicts w/ “by no means precede”. Watch out! Paul just warned you (see also 1Pet.4:12): Yeshua descends in clouds w/ a shout & trump blast; Shout raises bodies – bodies are reassembled (bone/sinew/flesh) & stand on earth (fleshy/dead to sin); Trump raises souls from AB – souls enter bodies (still no life). Spirit descends in a twinkle (Eze.37:10); We will not see Messiah (yet) – only a cloud w/ glory (think Exodus); We will have authority like Yeshua had while bodily on earth; Martyrs will have bodies (also standing in the valley of bones) that will be caught up into the cloud; Mid-Trib confirmation time for God’s house, where judgment begins. The GT IS the judgment; Time to do His will, walk His walk. The testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy. Rapture happens before the Bowls (3.49yrs after res). 2nd chance? Born again!
Yeshua appears in cloud 3.5yrs before the GT ends as Shepherd of His flock + He alone tramples the winepress. If we die in the res (Rev.2:10) the 2nd death will not harm us (Rev.2:11 – explain your view on this). This is our immortality. If martyred, we will be caught up to the cloud to join the Lord & martyred bros. Our bodies won’t be dead, even if beheaded – the preferred method (Rev.20:4 – how do you interpret if you aren’t present on earth w/ the beast?) No mortal bodies. A viable army of God, formerly separated across time, is assembled w/ unity commanded (GT helps unity). The Bride’s righteous deeds are done on earth, making herself ready for the Groom; Ruth in the field; Sign of the Son of Man; morning star rises in our hearts; When we see Him we will be like Him; Enter the Promised…
Clearly the use of “fallen asleep” is just another way of saying, “died.” 1Thes 4:14
Concerning: The word “then (epeita)” in 1The.4:17. Epeita can means 2,000+ yrs, and tying it in with (1Cor.15:23). Excellent point, Patrick!
Soul sleep is at best a myth, and at worst heresy. 🙂
Good insight small james.
I think we might have levels of agreement. Maybe you can expand your thoughts from #156, we are listening. I am traducianist, but perhaps not in the traditional way. CMP mentioned this on a different page, I commented about a month ago here:
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/02/on-my-journey-to-become-charismatic/comment-page-1/#comment-100443
Hello Patrick, I’m way behind in commentary to your posts, sorry. Varied thoughts here:
RE#125+153 Nephalim as special class of individuals? Isn’t this a distinction among the dead that my previous post said is unbiblical. How do you justify? Everybody is equalized by the grave, even Nephalim assuming that they are human. Now if you believe in hybrid human/demon as Nephalim, then why did they die? Angelic beings are not cursed with death under Adam. If Nephalim were wiped out “without trace” in the flood, why are they back again in Numb 13:33? Instead of this sci-fi nephalim business, I prefer nephalim as humans with great arrogance.
When you say that the flood was caused by Nephalim (who are a different race of nonhuman), I think you refuse blame. You are passing the buck, you are pointing the finger at somebody else (demons?). I think it is much more biblical to say that the flood was OUR fault. Humans, my ancestors and yours, rebelled against God. We were proud, giants in ego, because of the sin of Adam (not Nephalim/demon sires) the world was destroyed.
RE#126 pls define ontologically, the difference between body/soul/spirit in your theology. I’ve given detailed description of my schema, how do you define these? You appear to be blending soul+spirit.
RE#144+149 Compartments in the 1 place. Ecc 3:19-20 which compartment of the one place do animals go to? Notice in Ps 49:14 sheep go to sheol. Do farm animals go to the happy side or the nasty side? I think this is the grave. One place for ALL humans and beasts. No metaphysical dimensions are intended, you watch too many movies 🙂
RE#147 “Yeshua revealed truth to the Pharisees”? Contraindicated by Mk 4:33-34 ONLY parables to the public; Mat 13:11 Truth NOT given to Pharisees; Mat 7:6 bad idea to give them truth.
You never told me about Mamre and AB. Thanks for your study+thought on all this. Although we disagree on many details, we can agree that Jesus is Lord.
Jay,
Nephilim = hybrids. Demons aren’t fallen angels. Use of “bene elohim” (sons of God) always refers to malukim (angels), including Gen.6:1-4. References in Jude & Peter give full support. Fossil evidence of giants is suppressed, but well documented in many historical writings, such as Josephus (including myth), as well as fossil evidence. Megolithic structures indicate either advanced tech that has been lost, or superhuman strength involved. They were a special class of men – very violent according to all that Scriptures provide. Sethites marrying Cainites would produce no special men, just bad marriages as we see today. Being part human, they were mortals & subject to death. Several possibilities exist in terms of why they reappeared (which Gen.6:4 affirms): Naamah (Gen.4:22) of Cain’s lineage (last generation before Mabool) may have been Ham’s wife. Not sure why she is mentioned in the genealogy otherwise. Midrash states Ham’s wife was impregnated prior to embarking with the result being the birth of Canaan, whom Noah cursed. Either way, all post-Mabool giants stem from lineage of Ham, & specifically Canaan. Fertility rituals, based on concerns about decreased longevity after the Mabool, would have arisen to try to improve man’s genetic stock. Proliferation of giants would have been a natural result. Many references in OT about giants according to their tribes.
All the world (especially man) was wicked – not blame-shifting. But God required a pure strain of man to survive to bring His Son into the world.
Body/soul/spirit: I posted that before, but it didn’t show up (remember?) – I will try again if I can find it. Soul & spirit are very closely associated (Heb.4:12) like joints & marrow (tendons & bones).
I don’t know where animals go. Scriptures don’t address. These views are older than movies.
Truth to the Pharisees: Nicodemus was not of the 12.
Jesus IS Lord, brother!
You are not addressing my questions to you!
Are you actually up to date? I’m still way behind, will catch your ques in order.
RE#146 JohnBap+Jesus not under OT economy? I appreciate that you are trying to reconcile dead people talking in Lk16 with no talking or thinking fromEcc/Ps/Job. But saying that Jesus+JohnBap were not under the OT economy is wrong approach.
Why did Jesus (Mat 8:4) tells lepers to go show to priests+make sacrifice per Lev 13:16-17; Lev 14:3-4? Why was Jesus circumcised on 8day per brit Milah? Why was Jesus presented in the temple at 40 days per Ex 13:2? (FYI on Pidyon Haben -http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/candelma.htm) Why did He obey the Sabbath per the Law(but not per the rabbanim)? Why did He keep the festivals per Lev 23? Why did He keep kashrut per diet laws?
How can you claim that John+ Jesus were not under the OT economy? Changes to this economy come AFTER Pentecost when Peter sees a sheet with a bunch of critters, and Paul tells Galatians not to cut it off and Romans not to fret over day of the week.
Lk 16:16 “until John” John’s message started in 29ad (Lk 3:1). We know from concrete Roman sources that Tib ruled from 14-37ad, so 15th yr=29ad. Jesus gets bapt + starts his ministry about then. What the verse says to me is that the prophets of old had a vague expectation of messiah, but no details. John actually had a name +face. HS revealed to John the details that Jesus will bapt w/ HG (Mat 3:11). That is a Pentecost prophecy 3.5yrs early. That Jesus was God’s lamb(John 1:29). This is particularly insightful. A lamb is an animal of sacrifice, lamb’s die to atone for sin. John was the 1st of OT prophets to get the big picture. He was the 1st to preach the good news of Jesus salvation from death. Jesus’ resurrection changed the paradigm, not Johns’ preaching. It must be ALL about Jesus, claiming that it is about John is near idolatry, for he is just a man.
Patrick, Pls email me jay at drymalla dotcom. Blessings.
RE #146Timing of Lk16 about same as John 11, I’m ok with that. I too have coordinated the harmony and see no obstacle here. But it’s not relevant, Laz Bethany does not equal Laz beggar. Laz Beth was wealthy, not poor. He was buried in a cave tomb-very high class 99% of Israelites were buried in hole in the ground. Only the rich have a rockcut family tomb. Also John 11:19 Jews come to grieve and console. Pharisees were respecters of persons, they would not come to poor house. This is a prominent family. Laz of Beth has sisters and a household (John 12:1-2), while Laz Beggar has no one, dogs are his best friend. Mary uses expensive lotion (John 12:3), poor beggarly families would not have access to nard. My point is that Laz Bethany and Laz beggar are NOT same person. I think you conflate stories just because they have the same name.
RE#149 You said:Adam died with in 1st 1000yr day. Now you’re being non literal. When God said in that very day you will surely die, I think He meant it literally. Same daylight hours as planet circles the sun, Adam’s spirit died. You think ‘day’ is metaphor for an age of 360,000days (Hebrew calendar of course). In order to be literal instead of having said “in this yom you shall die”, God should have said “in this aleph you shall die.” Aleph is Hebrew for 1000. Moses used it in Pentateuch many times. Why does Moses now use yom, when he meant aleph? Patrick my friend, you made a big deal about being literal, and now you’re being figurative. I think that many people have bought the lie of the devil in Gen 3:4, you shall NOT surely die. People claim that the spirit of man is still alive.
Jay,
God did breathe life into animals (compare Gen.2:7 with Gen.6:17). The latter vs. makes no distinction between man & animal, but lumps them under the same umbrella – “ALL flesh wherein the breath (ruahk) OF life (chai)”. They definitely have spirit (ruahk) if they are alive. Spirit OF life; spirit = life.
I agree with you in terms of the soul/spirit/flesh as a component of man being in the image of God (Father-soul, Son-flesh, Spirit-spirit), but the defining & unique (non-animal) characteristic, according to Gen.1:27 & Gen.5:3 is actually the outward form of man; He made us in His image. That word (image – tselem) is the same used for a “graven idol” and means a representation, phantom, likeness, semblance, image. Yeshua chose His image before the foundation of the kosmos. He came as Ambassador from the Father bearing our likeness. He is the Seed. He could take our place of punishment because He was like us in appearance. The Last Adam. The bene elohim (malukim) are also in His image. Cherubim and seraphim are not & should not be lumped into the same class, although they are part of the heavenly host (but not angels/malukim). The malukim are our fellow servants and of our brethren the prophets (Rev.22:9) – also made in God’s chosen image.
You are correct about spirits being good – I mis-spoke – what I meant was that they are all the same (good). Even the unrighteous have good spirits (as I was saying), albeit repressed by their fleshy-natured nephesh.
Maybe I should ask you, what function does the spirit serve? Have you checked out Job 33:4? Please comment. I feel it’s pretty important to understand the Spirit is the ordained life-giving part of the Godhead. Yeshua received the Spirit at His baptism before any miracles, such as raising the dead, could be performed.
You make several good points regarding Lazarus’ family background. Thanks! I believe my argument still stands regarding the Pharisee’s reaction whether these 2 were the same,…
RE#149 For spiritual death see Rom 7:9 Paul was physically and soulfully alive. Eph 2:1 people in Ephesus were physically and soulfully (of the mind) alive. They had been spiritually dead. Eph 2:5 quickened us-animated us-brought us to life. Not dead in body. Not dead in soul See Rom 2:9 I like KJV “every soul [psyche] of man that does evil” Thus evil people have a soul. As we have previously discussed, this is self evident because soul means living.
Again Col 2:13 Paul is preaching to bodily living people. They are dead in spirit, which is an equally real ontological structure analogous to the body but in a different dimension.
1 Cor 15:44-46 notice difference between Psychikos (soulish- of the mind) vrs pneumatikos (spiritual -of the spirit). KJV translating psychikos as ‘natural’ is bad. That makes it sound like the body. This is the soul- the mind, personality, ego. Everybody has one, even Hitler. But only believers have the spirit-because spirit is from God.
Thus is disagree with your statement “man’s spirit is as it should be.”
#149 I agree gates of hades keep people inside. The grave is inescapable and permanent (Job 7:9 come up no more). But that’s not the end of the story, the hallelujah part is that Jesus conquered the grave. By Him we can live. Except you think that Jesus has not yet fully delivered on the promise. Not yet released the prisoners. I say that Jesus has ALREADY conquered death, you think that victory is still future.
Correct me if I err, but it appears to me that your Jesus is too small. He is not yet Lord of Lords, because in your system AB still stifles believers who are the bride and wife of Christ. In my system, yes the body awaits resurrection, but the person is with Xp.
#159 I disagree with James Les about soul sleep as heresy. I think it is incorrect for the NT believer, but I wouldn’t call it heresy.
I’m not sure I’ll ever catchup. Pls email for some tangent topics (adam’s generations, mid trib…
… or not.
JohnBap+Jesus not under OT ecomony: Yeshua came to fulfill the technical requirements of the law, as you have well documented. As I stated earlier, in this sense you are correct about Yeshua belonging to the OT economy. John was only His herald (Isa.40:3), so it’s still all about Him, not John. New perceptions about the paradigm came only after the ascension/coming of the Spirit, yes, but the Spirit was upon those men prior to that also (Luk.10:1-24), when they cast out demons who were subject to them (pre-crucifixion). THere are some very interesting statements made in this passage. Yeshua was slain before the foundation of the kosmos. This has significant meaning. The formality of conquering death in the image of man was essential to the end victory – man being born again into new life, which, in the big picture sense, is the resurrection of the dead in Messiah. Melchizedek came before Aaron. Messiah has always been Chief Priest of the former. That’s the everlasting priesthood. Aaron’s order was temporary, like Adam’s tunic of skin. Messiah’s order is permanent, a covering in glory, predetermined before the foundation of the kosmos. The OT ecomony (the parameters of love, graven in stone and leading to condemnation) are swallowed up by the former order. Messiah was merely continuing on in his ministry as High Priest of the former order in order to fulfill the technical requirements of the latter while in the flesh. He does not change.
I am very interested in carrying on this exchange, as it helps me sharpen my focus on what I believe, plus we are sharing in harmony. I hope you are benefitting as well. I would be very concerned that if I were to go to your alternate site that the exchanges would become tedious, due to the vast amount of words I am fully confident we are both able to generate when it comes to the Scriptures.
I am still 2 or 3 posts behind.
RE#153 no poetry in 1 Chron 21:17. My point was that it uses figurative language without flagging. You were claiming all literal unless flagged. Poetry and prose may both be either literal or figurative, but statistically poetry goes figurative more frequently. I’m not down on your being literal. Overall, Literalism is a good thing. When taken to ridiculous length, it is little too wooden for my taste, I love metaphor and hyperbole. I think we should be literal UNLESS specifically flagged as you say OR the context is impossibly non-logical. EG: transparent gold in NJ is an internal contradiction-logical impossibility. If God made some new element that was like gold but transparent, then it would not be gold, it would be something else. Thus making God a liar by falsely calling it gold. Thus, since God don’t lie, it must not be woodenly literal. Notwithstanding my concerns over literalism, there are bigger issues at stake than that. Ironically, you take death as figurative. You say that people are dead in Sheol, but then next post you say they are stirred and talk to each other. Which is it? For me, death means the permanent and total cessation of life. For you it is more like a coma. The wages of sin is coma? I find it very odd that a literalist takes death so figuratively. Perhaps you disagree with my definition of death?
If Sheol and Abbadon are not the same, then where is Abbadon? Who is there? What is it? I think you got cut off by the 2000character Nazi. Firstborn of Death? Like Death is a real guy? Not in my bible. Sheol is the grave, not a grave, but poetically for gravedom. Abbadon is destruction/corruption/ decay all of which are fair translational ideas. What happens in the grave? Bodies decompose. They go together, Abbadon is in literary terms called a metonym. It uses a key feature of the grave to describe the entity.
I agree let’s keep the relevant stuff here. Although id love to hear from you for a proper introduction?
#165 Unsaved have good spirits? Would God punish the righteous alongside the unrighteous? (Gen 18:23) Maybe He should just punish the wicked’s body +soul if they are bad, and not punish their good spirits? This is highly dualistic. Man is ENTIRELY wicked, holistically every part of man is bad. Man does not have a good bone in his body, or appropo for our talk he does not have a good spirit in his constitution. Only exception is the born again believers, who are given a new creation, a new birth, a new spirit.
If you agree that spirit is good +sin does not come from the spirit, and if agreed that wicked are without goodness holistically en toto, then it follows that unsaved have no spirit.
Only man is made in tselem b’elohim. God is a spirit (John 4:24). Tselem of God is not a physical manifestation. It cannot be reproduced iconicly. Gorillas and human look very close, are gorillas made in God’s image? Of course not because gorillas have no spirit.
Spirit is godimage. Rauch/pneuma can have 2 meanings: breath or spirit.
You ask what is function of spirit? Short answer is for communion with God. Have you read my paper yet? Body+spirit are analogous. Body has senses (sight, hearing, et al) that enable the person (psyche-soul-mind) to interact with its environment. Body provides sensory data for mind (personality) to act+react to the physical world. Spirit is similar structure but in spirit world. Spirit allows psyche to act+react with spiritual world. God is a spirit, so a spirit is necessary for communion with God. For seeing God, for hearing God an operable spirit vessel is needed. It is impossible for unsaved to understand spiritual things (1Cor 2:14), because their sensory collection apparatus of that dimension is broken.
Jay,
1k yr day: Non-literal? As I have already said, there is often a figurative side to the Scriptures that I have noted. Lit first, then fig, if present & noted. I am approved to take 1k yrs = 1 yom from Scriptures. Within the word (yom) an age may be implied with a supplied indicator, which is present (Psa.90:4 & 2Pet.3:8) as a 1k year Day’s duration; the death of Adam (he did not die spiritually, for spirits, by definition, do not die – but the flesh & soul do!); Personally, I can live with the 1st 6 Days being 24 hrs (the eve & the morn a day, n), however, that phrase is not used (oddly enough) for the Creation Sabbath. No formal closure is ever given for the 7th Day (an exception).
Let me challenge you w/ the following: After a week cycles through, a new wk starts all over, right? Now apply that principle to the Scriptures, only use 1 day = 1k yrs for each Day (& Ussher’s literal chronology). The Creation Sabbath would have ended about 1k AM (Anno Mundi). Adam died at age 930 yrs, because God told Adam, “In the day you eat of it…”, which is a big check-in-the-box for proceeding, as I see it. But move ahead – The Mabool, then, came (literally/Ussher) in 1,656AM – a bit past the middle of a new 1st Day. NOW, what does Gen.1:2 (Day 1) figuratively have in common with Gen.8:9, in light of Mat.3:16? If you can assemble this conveyance, then you will find a consistent pattern throughout the Scriptures that indicates God “declaring the end from the beginning” (Isa.46:9&10). There are 7 ages to be discovered (figuratively out of the Creation Days) that represent the true dispensations of God. These foreshadow 7, 1k historical yrs that follow the Creation Days, consistently & figuratively outlined throughout the Scriptures, that tells us God’s general timetable, concluding with the 1k yrs reign of Messiah as the 2nd (7th Day) Sabbath Rest. You only get this with Usher’s chronology, but I believe you have already dismissed this as being childish.
Yes Ps 90:4 & 2Pet 3:8 do speak of 1day=millennium. But not Gen3. It is not good exegesis to claim that since yom is figurative in Ps90, then it is ok to use it figurative in Gen3. Each context must stand on its own. Example: since Jesus is called a lamb in Rev 5:6, maybe lamb in Lev 14:13 is a reference to human sacrifice. If lamb was used that way over there, then it is ok to interpret lamb that same way over here.
This is bad exegesis and totally runs bulldozer over the context. In context, Peter’s point is to be patient for the 2nd Coming. Ps 90 speaks of the eternal nature of HaShem. They are not revealing a code language to decipher the hidden meaning of prophecies given thousands of years ago in Genesis.
God’s warning in Gen3 of Adam’s impending death was delivered directly to Adam. Adam was the referent and the object. God+ Adam were talking about boundaries and limits of human behavior. Hence, the terms and words that God used must have had sense and meaning to Adam. Or else God is a trickster. God was not talking past Adam or over his head in a cryptic riddle to which mankind would not have the key for several millennia. The Lord is not a God of riddles. God speaks the plain truth.
Thus, Adam’s body death is not intended. God is speaking about a different sort of death, but still a literal one with which Adam would surely die the same day that he sinned.
Jay,
Spiritual death: Rom.8:6 speaks of carnal vs. Spirit-MINDED, which pertains to soul, not spirit. Carnality produces WILLful sep. from God (REJECTing Him in PREFERENCE for PLEASING the flesh) leading to physical death, but being Spirit-minded puts the mind (soul) in SUBJECTION to the Spirit by DENYING the flesh. Rom.7:7&8 speaks of KNOWING the law & evil DESIRES (soul), leading to death. Even Rom.7:9 speaks of the “commandment coming”, which indicates CONSCIOUS RECEPTION of the word. Paul HEARD & PERCEIVED what was evil & was thence forward ACCOUNTABLE. These are all soul-ish things. The spirit is our life – breath – animation, & that’s it – Isa.38:16. Yeshua’s spirit returned to God at the moment of death (Luk.23:46 – He breathed His last) – nothing to do with His soul. The Holy Spirit, by grafting with our spirit, gives us eternal life – see Jhn.6:63, Rom.8:2, Rom.8:10, Rom.8:11, 1Cor.15:45, 2Cor.3:6, Gal.6:8, etc.
I believe you posted earlier that no one was spiritually alive between Adam’s fall & Messiah’s res/ascension; in Rom.7:9 Paul states that he was once alive until the law came (pre-salvation), & then he died – doesn’t this contradict your statement?
Col.2:13 speaks of TRESPASSES (no doubt some conscious). 1Cor.15:44-46 – note the links between spirit/life. Adam was a soul who quenched the Spirit; Yeshua was a soul who gained the (life-giving) Spirit. I agree, “natural” is a bad trans, & had not known it, so thanks! I had taken it to mean fleshy, but the verse still reads good per my interpretation. The Spirit (big S) is from God, but every man also has a spirit (little s) from God, until they die – 1Cor.5:5.
My Yeshua is your Yeshua – He’s not too small – this type of talk leads to divisions bro. He has the keys to Hades & Death & will use at the right time. Victory is still in the future like Rev. states.
Why does Rev. make a distinction about the souls under the altar, vs. all other souls that you say are already in heaven?
Jay,
no poetry in 1Chr.21:17: My point:”sheep” are flagged as “God’s people” in this vs. The Scriptures therefore are saying that we may apply a fig. meaning to sheep refs wherever a lit. meaning does not otherwise make sense. What I am hearing you say is that YOU get to decide when to invoke the fig. meaning option. Dangerous. If we leave this up to men, we will not be able to agree on much & wicked men will (already have) come in & dissect(-ed) the word to no end. Man can’t possibly hope to be left in charge of such without resulting dire consequences. The conservative thing to do is to let God be our sole Instructor/Interpreter. You have to admit 1Chr.21 does indeed clear up your frequently ref’ed sheep issue – right?
In terms of your “impossibly non-logical context” fig. invocation principle, I believe it is a dangerous usurpation on your part. I have noted several of your prior comments, such as “too sci-fi for me”, or “you watch too many movies”, etc., but we are dealing w/ spiritual realms here. I have already admitted my own ignorance to certain aspects of these realms (how can dead souls speak, etc.) because earthly principles just do not seem to always apply. They are shrouded in mystery because the principles of the phys. (logical) world just do not always apply there. But you seem to be saying, “Well, since I know nothing about translucent gold, it must be fig.” Perhaps God has refining abilities that go far beyond our own phys. world’s tech. Perhaps 24k isn’t as pure as gold can be. Perhaps real pure gold is indeed translucent.
#170 “spirits do not die” How do you interpret Eze 28:18-19?
Eze 26-27 are addressed to the city of Tyre. Your walls will collapse, the sea will beat you down, etc. These are fulfilled.
Notice Eze 28:2-10 is addressed to the PRINCE of Tyre, not just to the city but it specifically references the prince (nageed). The prince is a man (Eze 28:9). This would be Ethbaal3. He died in Nebuchadnezzar’s attack per Josephus.
Eze 28:11-19 is addressed to the KING (melek) of Tyre. I propose that the king is different than the prince. 2 different Hebrew words.
The KING of Tyre was in Eden, was a covering cherub, Here is an odd one: he was created the same day as all those pretty stones. What day were rocks created? Not 6th day. This king had been on the mount of God among the stones of fire (v14). That is heaven of God’s abode. There are no stones of fire on Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Ethbaal never went to Jerusalem and certainly never went to heaven. Do you agree that this is talking about Satan, not some human? Dan 10:20 mentions prince of Persia as a demon too. So there is precedent for spiritual powers being called ruler of cities.
Eze 28:18 ESV has very poor translation. Hebrew verb is imperfect-Future tense. I will consume you with fire. I will turn you to ash. This did not literally happen to Ethbaal. But it will happen to Satan and all unsaved. Ash (Mal 4:3).
Eze 28:19 the verb is hayah- to exist-to be. Satan will not exist forevermore. This is the Universalist Hope. Eventually God will be all in all. The Spirit of God will be brimming overfill in all being that remain in existence.
Thus, either Eze28:11 is Satan and spirits can die. Or Eze28:11 is Ethbaal and that man was in Eden and performed asGod’s covering cherub.
I agree with Ussher+ straight forward bib chronology from Abraham forward. Ab was from Ur. We have early bronze (Akkadian period) archaeological evidence in Iraq substantiating a date circa 2300bc. That fits very well with Bible dates, Exodus early about 1450bc, United Monarchy in 11thCbc, etc. These are conservative dates, I am not a minimalist. I think we fully agree. My doubts are before 2300bc. Ussher takes literal approach to adding numbers from Adam to Noah+Ab. I think that is a bit simplistic, and I probably see gaps in genealogy, Flood till Abram leaves Haran at 75old (Gen 12:4) =465yr (lunar). This isn’t enough time to disperse at Babel, build pyramids+ have a dozen dynasties at Sumer/Akkad.
I am not particularly opposed to the 7day=7epocs/dispensations. Remember I said that possibly 6 days of creation were literal 24hr days with evening +day, but not contiguous. Maybe there is a gap of abillion yrs between day 1+2. Enough for dinosaurs+fossils. Then another gap of billion betwn literal days 2+3, enough for Grand Canyon erosion. We can be both literal+geologically responsible.
Carry forward to 7 dispensations. Ussher 4004BC =1AM. Today we are past 6000, should be in 7th day Millennium, but we are not. Perhaps there are gaps. But as I said before I don’t see relevance toward the intermediate state with this line of talk. Email me to continue.
#149Yes, fallen angels eventually die in LoF. Currently fallen angels are spirit(immaterial essence) and soul(life), but no body. They are not governed by covenants given to man. They are not partakers of curse on Adam of death, nor of Jesus’ gift of eternal life. You said demons are not fallen angels? Pls clarify. What are they?
Patrick, I’m almost caught up.
RE#152 spirits in prison (1Pet 3:19) Never does the bible refer to man as a spirit. Saved men HAVE a new spirit, but they ARE a soul. Angelic beings (Good+bad) ARE spirits. Pneuma is used for demons+angels many times. Evil/unclean pnuema is used 54times (I counted).
If pneuma in 1Pet 3:19 are human then this is first +only. If they are demons, then it fits with huge body of evidence. My book covers this.
I see where you are going with Mabool as a spirit catcher because no AB yet. This is a classic dilemma for literal AB advocates. If it is ABRAHAM’s bosom, where did the righteous go before Abraham? What happened to Able+Seth? They did not get “caught” in the flood. Where did you get the idea that flood waters “catch “spirits? Bible reference pls.
#165 breath of life Gen 2:7 and Job 33:4 the breath is neshamah. Sometimes it is related to rauch, which simply means wind. In Gen 7:22, as you noted, the 2 words are hyphenated to show synonymy. Also for synonymy see Job 4:9 neshamah=rauch. Nothing spiritual happening here, just air.
I’m hung up on your idea that “unsaved have good spirits” (165). And “spirits never die”(170). So your theory is that Adolph Hitler had a good spirit; that he was spiritually alive. You think that Hitler was a spiritual man. You think his good spirit was approved by God. You think his spirit returned to God when he shot himself in the head inside the bunker, so that Hitler’s spirit is now with God in heaven. Common Christian sense tells us that is not true. The HS should be tugging on your strings about now telling you that something is terribly wrong with that idea. This point is a keystone. It is foundational to our disagreement.
#172 Rom 8:1 “walk after spirit” is a better translation. Should not be “walk after the Spirit.” No article in Greek. Small s-your personal spirit, not HS. Same construct is used without article in Rom 8:4+9. Theseare saved people after Pentecost.
Rom 8:2 THE Spirit of life is correctly capitalized.
Rom 8:5 I would probably split down the middle. “people living after spirit (small s) dwell upon thoughts of THE Spirit (big S).
I agree with you that the thinking and minding and living and walking are all functions of the psyche. Notice that the unsaved can’t walk after spirit (because it aint there). Saved have an option, sometimes we focus on the sarx, when we should be focused on pneuma.
Rom 7:9 Whole paragraph is a personification of inanimate behaviors. Sin is not really alive. It is not even a thing, it is a verb. 7:8 Sin jumps at a chance? Sin lies dead? Don’t take this literally. Sin is not a bogeyman being that can jump or die. Major analogy here. Rom 7:3-4 Mr. Law is also personified as a tough demanding husband that allowed Mr. Sin to abuse his wife. Mr. Law is a good guy, but totally unforgiving and a stickler for detail. When his wife (humans) make a mistake about every day, he permits Mr. Sin to beat the tar out of her. Rom 7:6 the wife dies, so that she is legally no longer married to Mr. Law and is able to escape that weird household, where Mr. Sin waits in the basement to ambush her. The dead wife is able to marry another dead guy-Jesus. But He is not dead anymore, so they both LIVE happily ever after.
That is my paraphrase of Rom 7. Pls don’t get too literal. These characters living and dying is part of the story. Not literal unless you are prepared to advocate that Sin and Law are real beings.
Jay,
Abaddon: I take death as lit. Script. literally says that dead souls (separated from their spirits) are stirred up in Sheol. I have no authority to challenge God’s word just because it doesn’t make perfect sense to me. His thoughts are higher than mine. A body not moving/breathing is called “dead”, but we can’t see the soul. The spirit that enabled animation has departed, which also enabled the soul to record/process info. When the spirit left the soul stopped perceiving & it was taken by a 3rd party for safe keeping. The soul can’t learn any more, but can still be activated – I don’t understand, but that’s ok! I’ll just have to trust God on that 1 & proceed. Predest. vs. free will must be fig. because it’s illogical to assume both – right? No!
Where is Abaddon (a fallen angel)? The Bottomless Pit, where he’s king; Shakh-ath = destroying angel that God uses in judgment over nations. The locusts he commands are spoken of in prophecy. I believe they are shade (consuming) demons, who pick up where the saweers (corruptors) stop. Shades bring the living to death’s verge, but don’t kill – only the personage of Death does this. Death is an enemy, not only a condition. He is as real as the seraphim, who have something to do w/ his release as 1 of 4 horsemen. Zec. has some to say about these.
Do dark spiritual realms (including corruption) interact w/& govern over the phys. world? Corruption certainly was never part of God’s Creation. Could Death be king over microbes (known) as Ab. is king over locusts (unknown)? Science doesn’t understand much (except making stuff) because 1 of its fund. assumptions (no God) prevents it. Science only explores phys. realms, & dismisses spiritual realms because they are non-logical (like beliefs in God). Our heads are puffed up w/ science facts that move us away from considering spiritual realms. We don’t want to look silly before the world, and so doubt God words.
Ok, I’m trying to understand your theory of body-soul-spirit. You accept a tripartite view of our constitution.
Body (Soma) is physical animals and people both have.
Spirit (rauch/pneuma) is breath/animation, since breathing is indicative of life. Again animals and people both have. Nothing metaphysical with spirit, it is just air/wind/breath. When you and/or beast dies, the air stops moving. The gift of life returns to God. This is nothing more than the animation force, thus Hitler had spirit in your system. Spirit is always good, because spirit is life, life is from God and God is good. Hence spirit is good.
Soul (nephesh/psyche) is personality/mind. Animals and people both have soul. This is the immaterial aspect of creatures. We have pointed out verses wherein animals have both nephesh and rauch.
So what is the difference between man and beast? If spirit is not the image of God, what is?
Did I get the above correct for your system? Before I attempt to critique it, I want to make sure I’m not fighting a straw man.
#157 eternal vrs everlasting: In NT eternal +everlasting are both equally translating the same Gk word aiōnios. So there is no difference. It is only perceived in English. It is the same Grk word. Man was created, so we are not eternal is the past. I have no objection to your idea that our conception in god’s mind was eternal, but I wouldn’t go around bragging that man is eternal because of that. Instead man is appointed to death, to return to the dust. Eternality is available, even better-we can become godlike, joint heirs with the Son, theoticly grown into his image. But the availability of this option is only upon God’s conditions-faith in Jesus. Not everyone gets eternal life, it is a gift.
Jay,
Unsaved have good spirits?: Yes, that is what I believe. Their spirits (which return at death to God who gave them – who does not give wicked gifts) are good because they are performing their function – invoking animation (via breath) of the body. If they were not good (not wicked, but defective – bad) then there would never have been the possibility for life (animation). The spirit of a man is more than just air; it is a life-force. It is the soul that God will punish with an everlasting punishment, not the flesh (which is dust) or the spirit. The soul is wicked. The flesh obeys the soul, except in extreme survival conditions (hunger, pain, etc…) where the spirit actually insists the soul tend to the needs of the body, lest the spirit depart from it. This is the really close association between soul and spirit I was speaking of. The spirit has some limited form of emotion and will that pertain to matters of life and death – it can actually trump the soul. Try to will yourself to stop breathing – no way, because the spirit (which is your life force) will override your own will (your soul). If it is not the spirit trumping the will, then what is it? Why can’t you will yourself to stop breathing? God doesn’t have bad breath. Born again believers have a better than good Spirit, because they received the Holy Spirit, which grafts with our own spirit and brings together what was prior to separated (spirituall sep.). Sometimes I wonder if you aren’t totally subtracting our own spirit (little s) as if it plays no part, or does not exist. You never answered my question: “What function does man’s spirit serve?” If the unsaved are breathing, then they have a spirit. Do you have any Scripture that states otherwise? I’d like to see it.
I thought you said you do not like it when people degrade the body (you said, “Man does not have a good bone in his body”).
Jay,
1day=1kyrs: The lit. words in Psa.90/2Pet.3 are 1day=1kyrs. You gave the fig. meanings, not the lit. Literally, they mean what they say. Figuratively, they say what you have said they mean. I can apply the lit. Psa.90:4 figuratively to the lit. Gen 3-Gen.11, just as believers rightly do with Messiah’s lit. death account & a lit. Passover lamb sacrifice (Col.2:16-17). The fig. connection is there & was intentionally done by the HS for both. It does not alter the lit. (like lambs being slain) – it is simply an overlaying of significant info (seeing Messiah inside the Passover). I have in no way altered, or ignored, the lit. meanings, as I have said, and figuratively all Scriptures consistently run historically parallel with the Creation Days w/ a 1day=1kyrs condition, even to the point of giving parallel indicators for each age (Spirit hovering over the waters/Dove had no resting place for the sole of her foot – Spirit = fig. dove – both Day 1s, etc.) The farther 1 pursues this theme the more 1 receives confirmation. I didn’t say “code language to decipher the hidden meaning of prophecies”. God said He declared the end from the BEGINNING. That is specific, lit.: “In the BEGINNING was the WORD” – Logos – a declarative Entity (God SAID, “Let there be light”, etc.) There is nothing cryptic, nor is there anything that forbids this in the fig. realm. I take what has been explained literally, & apply it where it belongs.
Adam didn’t die spiritually – he quenched the HS in him & became spiritually separated from God (his spirit apart from God’s Spirit). Man has his own spirit apart from the HS, which I suspect you may be unwilling to see – Gen.41:8, Deu.2:30, Job 15:13, Pro.16:32, Eze.3:14, Dan.5:20, Dan.7:15, Mal.2:16, Luk.1:47, Act.7:59, ROM.8:16, 1Cor.5:5, etc. Adam lost his Spirit-glory coat – 2Cor.5:4-5 – Adam was ashamed in God’s presence. He realized he was naked right off. He died physically within what Moses has literally said to be a day to God.
Hello Patrick, I made a mistake and need to adjust what I said in post #169. Rauch as used in OT always means air, wind, breath. You had made the comment +you’re correct- that animals have rauch. Animals have lungs (at least vertebrates). Nothing metaphysical about rauch in Hebrew Bible. That revelation does seem to come later in NT, but rauch in OT didn’t originally mean immaterial essance. Israelites were a temporal people, they had a hope for a resurrection, but no thought of an afterlife. Many scholars have noted this. At that point in history I think they were correct. There was no afterlife yet, because Jesus had not yet paved the road. I printed out ALL 378x rauch verses as they appear in OT. I think you could insert wind/breath every time with good exegesis. “Spirit” is probably eisegesis. A metaphysical element is not in the text. Gen 1:2 wind of God blew over the deep waters.
Wind is invisible. We can feel its power+see its effects, but we cannot see wind. Jesus plays on this in John 3:8.
So if rauch just means breath with a life force; maybe you are not tripartite? What is the part of man that is reborn (John 3:3)? What becomes a new creation (2Cor 5:17; Gal 6:15)? I see an actual entity, an object, a person, a being. Whereas you are seeing a force but no ontological personhood.
Pneuma appears 384x in NT. I have also printed out and studied every verse. By my counts, 231x it references the Holy Spirit. 55x it means an evil spirit. 4x it is angels. 6x it is Jesus. 25x it could simply mean breath as in OT rauch. This leaves 73 interesting verses for pneuma of men, where I think it is deeper than just breath/life. 69 of those 73 are in the epistles (post Pentecost). 4x in John gospel (John 3:5-6; John 4:23-24). Never, not once, does it speak of pneuma of unsaved.
Jay,
I agree that the covering cherub of Eze.28 = Satan, on the basis that if this were not Satan being described, then someone “wiser” might be a more suitable candidate as God’s adversary. I believe the big picture w/ the heavenly host (as well as w/ mankind) centers around the question “Who is worthy?”, per the several proclamations to this effect in the Rev. God’s authority/sovereignty has been challenged – and if He was not challenged by His “supreme” creation, then His undisputed worthiness will not truly be established by this current confrontation. It is also logical that the most likely candidate would be the one who saw that none were more qualified than himself. The fiery (pretty) stones are probably linked to a means of cleansing atonement, per Isa.6:6-7, which probably has something to do with the slaying of the Lamb before the foundation of the kosmos, since coals should not have such properties in and of themselves. The entirety of these statements is merely speculation on my part though. I also get a feeling from the Eze.28 passage that the stones were involved in Satan’s trafficking.
Prince of Persia is an angel, not a demon. The two are quite distinct in interests and behavior. Angels preside over nations, while demons possess whomever they can. Spirits cannot die – see Rev. 20:10 for Satan’s everlasting punishment. The ASH portion of Eze.28 probably has to do with his change from cherub to nawkhash prior to Eve, as the trafficking does not appear to tie in well with her temptation, plus he is already in serpent form when found in the garden. Mal.4:3 is the winepress judgment on Edom.
Jay,
Why do you imagine gaps it pre-Deluge genealogies? Pyramids show evidence of flooding (pre-Deluge). I don’t know about a dozen Akkadian dynasties, 40 yrs apiece seems reasonable though in terms of kings – if your numbers are correct. What is your source? The only reason to put gaps of billions of yrs between Creation Days is if you want evolution, which rejects the Scriptures anyway. God does not speak of billions anywhere, plus, this approach makes God’s creation haphazard/full of errors on His part with death present long before the fall, which does not match His omniscience/justice. How do you justify? Job was able to describe 1 land & 1 marine dinosaur in his days, including behavioral responses, but science states dinos died millions of yrs prior? Much evidence is present that shows man was contemporary w/ the dinos. Since Mt. St. Helens science has changed its tune on the amount of time involved in laying down mud layers. Check it out! Science still assigns millions between layers in the GC, but for no good reason. Geologically speaking, science has a treacherous history of distorting the facts to fit their theories. Recommend you check out creationscience.com, among other web sites. The church still has some 250 yr old repenting to do (Dan.9) concerning doubting God’s word. Today we are past 6,000 yrs from 1 AM, but this is because you fail to attribute the 1st (Creation) Sabbath as 1k yrs in duration, as I have previously said (no eve/morn statement). Absolutely no evidence of angels dying in the LoF from Scriptures, but just the opposite. They are immortal (Luk.20:36), which, by definition means they cannot die. Origin of demons is indeterminate. Personal speculation has to do with attempts on the heavenly hosts’ part in rearing their own offspring (forbidden fruit), which God never authorized.
Patrick, you are definitely helping me to fine tune my ideas. Thank you. You had brought up the idea of muth nephesh. I found it, you are correct: Lev 21:11; Numb 6:6; Numb 19:11-13;and Judg 16:30. So instead of nephesh meaning life (that’s chai), nephesh means mind, personality, consciousness. Nephesh can die. I have no problem with that. As a Conditionalist, I think the only way for your nephesh to live is by God’s gift. All humans receive the gift of temporal life. Believers in God receive the gift of Eternal life.
During the OT (before Jesus’ resurrection) all nephesh were breathed out in death awaiting redemption or judgment. Redemption has come. Judgment is still future.
Muth nephesh is not a problem for my thesis, but I do need to revise my definition per your correction. Nephesh does not simply mean life, it must mean mind/personality. 2Sam 14:14 when they died, their nephesh evaporated. It was poured out like spilt water on dry ground. Impossible to regather back into the cup. This happened to everybody (righteous and wicked) for God is no respecter of persons.
Gen 9:4; Lev 17:11; Lev 17:14 say that nephesh dwells in the damim (blood). How does that work with our definition as personality? Mind is in the brain, no? Yet no kasrut law against eating brains. You can’t eat the blood, because the nephesh is in the blood. How does that fit with nephesh=mind personality?
BTW, for modern gentile purposes I interpret this as we should not eat living animals. Cooked blood (boudin, black pudding) probably ok. Allow the oyster on half shell to wait 30min after shucking for it to die. Possibly oysters don’t even have nephesh, since they have no blood as vertebrate do.
Pls provide more info (by email would be good since this is totally not relevant + I’d hate for you to spend your 2000# on irrelevance) about difference between fallen angels and demons. I have not studied that topic. Thanks.
Jay,
body-soul-spirit: In terms of man’s spirit it’s not just air/wind/breath I’m thinking of. The spirit is a fusion of the several portraits drawn in the Scriptures. It is a life force that comes from (& returns to) God. It is like the wind (invisible) & is in charge of respiratory life (I’ve never had to define it w/ such detail, so I may retract certain things after reflection – I’m shooting from the hip). I would venture to say that all the spirits of mankind are virtually the same. They have limited emotion.
Analogy: The spirit is like a highly protective mom that scolds her kid (soul) when he is tearing up the house (flesh). Mom is bonded to the kid through certain emotional ties, making the 2 very close, & difficult to distinguish most times. She’s super-sensitive about the house because it falls to pieces quite easily now. In the beginning the first houses were very strong structurally (glory from the Spirit), but not anymore. The spirit is a guardian that wants to remain in the house & be with her kid, who knows carpentry, but is lazy & destructive. It breaks her heart to leave him, but she is eventually forced to go & live w/ her Dad/Landlord (God), while the kid is incarcerated for vandalism until his trial. Everyone (good & bad alike) has a mom. Only the kid can decide if he wants to repair the house. Some kids like the house the way it is, some come to see it really needs restoration. The latter accepts his circumstances & works to improve the house structurally with superb lumber, all supplied by the Landlord.
Don’t take me too literally on all this. Also, there are aspects I didn’t touch on in terms of the conversion experience.
As I said before man is distinct from animal in that he bears the image (form) of God bodily, like the malukim (angels in man’s forms). Messiah came in the form of a man to liberate man (Philippians 2:7-8).
Jay,
Ruakh/Pneuma Occurences: Very interesting findings you bring forth, & very well explained. A lot of work on your part, no doubt. Thanks!
But let’s see – you said “Israelites … had a hope for a resurrection, but no thought of an afterlife,” which seems to be self-contradicting. “Hope of res” vs. “no thought of afterlife”? Please explain, including your def. for afterlife, & w/ a caveat about the 2 shining guys speaking w/ the pre-cruc. Yeshua on the Mt. of Trans. I don’t believe you can replace ruakh w/ breath for the following OT vss: Gen.4:18, Deu.2:30 (the wicked!), Prov.16:32, Eze.3:14, Dan.5:20, Mal.2:16. These seem to be metaphys. refs. Please address. Gen.1:2, when linked w/ Prov.8:22-28 (in light of Isa.11:2 (compare w/ Rev.4:5)) give a much broader OT understanding on spirit, don’t you think? Please comment.
Based on these observations I personally suggest (at least initially) you look at your NT pneuma findings as being info that OVERLAYS the OT teaching, not supersedes it. I say this because the NT would be obliged to make a superseding statement if your interp. is correct. How is John 3:8 to be understood TODAY? I believe it pertains to the future resurrected/changed in Messiah. Apart from 1 another flesh, spirit, & soul are not persons – there is only 1 person formed from the comb. of the 3 (Here, oh Yisrael: The Lord thy God is One (Achad, a compound unity, not an absolute singular). We are such as well, an achad. Each sep. member needs the other 2 to make 1 functioning person.
I believe that John 3:3 is referring to the res. rebirth in its strictest sense.
“New creation” would be in ref. to a changed heart (soul/spirit combo) that no longer rebels against God/has a new grafting, but thinks/lives for the benevolent Savior/King.
1Cor.5:5 – Do you believe this man was truly converted? Ref. to him being like “leaven” makes me doubt this greatly. He has a man’s spirit, unless the HS is in need of salvation! Not!
#184 you think pymds were built before the flood? No way archaeologically. We’re fairly certain who the kings were of giza pymds. Kufu, Kafre +Menkaure were all kings in the 4th dynasty of oldkingdom (OK). Their cartouche on statuary in mortuary temples. Boats of reed are buried at giza. Before the flood it had not even rained yet. Boats were not well used, hence Noah’s ridicule. Reed would not survive flood. Sphinx is from Kafre (some dispute). Statue has great detail even hyglph writing. That would not survive flood.
OK (3rd-6th dyn)has yielded up many temples, stela, grave goods, even papyrus, pottery, etc. Way to much physical evidence for post flood period.
No way biblically either. There were no nations before the flood. Mankind had not yet dispersed. Mitzraim is the Hebrew word for Egypt. It is also guy’s name, he was son of Ham +founder of Egypt. Ham was on the ark, so Egypt was founded after the flood and after Babel dispersion. Babel occurred in the days of Peleg, when the earth was divided. Peleg did not witness Pangea geological division of continental drift (that is reading into text modern ideas), he witnessed division of humanity at babel into tribes/nations.
Note that Gen 10 (Nimrud empire builder of Assyria) is not in chronological order. Gen 11 Babel must come first before Babylon and Assyria are nations that need unification under one empire. Nimrud is proposed as Sargon Great in current issue of JETS, good article. If interested I can email it to you.
I said doz dynasties of Akkad quickly w/o counting. This would include Sumerian. Google it. Jemdet Nasr period is most famous due to large horde of cuneiform tablets at ziggurat unearthed WW1 era. I think excavated by Langdan. His translation of Gilgamesh still definitive, 80 yrs later. Harriet Crawford probably best known modern arch. in this field. Ziggurats are mud brick and cuneiform are clay. Both would dissolve if pre-flood, Sumer/Akkad are post flood.
#162 Heb 4:12 division of soul/spirit? This is an oft mistranslated verse. According to most English translations, the Word of God severs, divides, separates psyche from pneuma. They had been closely knit, but with God’s sharp filet knife, He cuts them in half. At least that is how most English versions so translate.
I think that is incorrect. The word merismou [divide asunder] is only used 1 other time in NT, also in Hebrews (same author). To better understand how the word is intended, we should study other instances of the word. Consistency is important. I reject the idea that Bible uses the same word in totally different ways. Especially not only 2 chapters apart, when the word is still fresh on your tongue. Heb 2:4 God bears witness of the truth of salvation message by displaying miracles in the apostles. He performs diversities [merismois] of the Holy Spirit. Most translations correctly understand this as GIFTS. Literally it means diversity. Not divisions of the HS, for certainly the HS does not cause division-but unity.
God does not divide, He is a combiner. 1Cor 1:10 divisions [schisma]; Titus 3:9-10 dissensions [eris]+ stirring up division [heretikon].
My point is that merismou from Heb 4:12 DOES NOT mean divide asunder. In Heb 2:4 it means various and sundry gifts(tongues, healing, prophecy, etc) given to different people at different items. Diversity, variety, distinction, complementarian. Jay’s amplified targum of Heb 4:12 The Word of God pierces like 2edge sword the thick foggy minds of people to distinguish the differences between psyche and pneuma.
Similarly, the Word can distinguish (not break apart) the purposes between joint+marrow. Unfortunately these 2 Greek words are unique to this verse. I’m not convinced joint+marrow are correct, but I don’t know.
Patrick, I think our talk is furthering the intent of this verse. We are not chopping out soul from spirit, but hopefully we will illuminate their meaning.
Jay,
Notice that the unsaved can’t walk after spirit (because it aint there): Or perhaps the spirit is there, but is repressed by the soul/flesh because of rebellion.
Rom.7:9: Paul said he was once alive and then the law came and he died. The law would have come to him before Messiah’s death. Isn’t this in conflict with your statement that no one was spiritually alive before the HS came to men after the ascension?
Sin is alive in the embodiment of sin – antichrist. There are many antichrists, and always have been. There are principalities and powers of darkness according to the NT. I believe sin is a power of darkness, same as death. Sin is also a noun, such as in Jhn.19:11. Sin in a man is a driving force that destroys his life and relationships. As such, it is a power. The pervasiveness of sin in an unregenerate man leads to a final outcome, like a disease. Diseases are only known by their symptoms, which are only physical manifestations. There must be a spiritual force behind the physical symptoms. In the spiritual realm we are not looking at non-living entities, but living – Eph.6:12. To underestimate this is a serious mistake. Science does not address the spiritual aspect, but deals only with the physical world. The pervasiveness of this world view is undermining our spiritual understanding about just such matters.
Jay,
So instead of nephesh meaning life (that’s chai), nephesh means mind, personality, consciousness: Correct. The soul apart from the spirit is dead, but not like the body apart from the spirit is dead. The body is matter, whereas spirit & soul are immaterial. The body is mortally dead apart from the spirit, but the soul does not deteriorate – ever. Our understanding about mortal decay of flesh does not apply to the soul, which opens the doors to a murky, unseen world. The word “hell” is German, and means hidden. The hope of grasping this realm’s workings without experience would be highly unlikely. Example: If you precisely understood the world and all things in it, but had never seen it, would you ever have realized that the surface of water would be reflective? No. It would be quite alarming to you, initially, to find this out. This is what we are up against in our hopes of understanding the matters around a dead soul.
Gen 9:4; Lev 17:11; Lev 17:14 say that nephesh dwells in the damim (blood): I do not believe this is necessarily true, but I wouldn’t want to argue against it due to the close association between spirit & soul. Gen.9:4-5 may be speaking about the “blood of the soul”. I believe the spirit inhabits the blood, but of the 3 (body/spirit/soul) God is primarily interested in the soul, & so the emphasis. It may be like asking, “Isn’t the blood part of the flesh?” The answer is yes, but the blood seems to be the link between all 3. The blood feeds the body, including the brain. Spirit is in the blood’s air, interacting, animating, etc.
I will forward my reasoning regarding demons are not angels, but need to refer to my notes first.
Jay,
Yet no kasrut law against eating brains: The OT issue is not about the eating of particular parts of the flesh, but about clean/unclean creatures, and the drinking of blood. The blood courses throughout all the (edible) parts of a body. I believe we can eat any part of any creature today, if it is received with thanksgiving. We still can’t drink blood though, because of Acts 21:25.
Yes, I did answer about function, see #169.
#183 Mal 4:3 was written 150 yrs AFTER Edom fell. Mal was during Persian period circa 430bc. Edom was destroyed by Babylon about 575bc. Reference to Edom+Esau is Mal 1:3-4, is typological for the wicked. Edom has become figurative (I know how you dislike figures of speech) for all wicked people. I have an extensive Edom Powerpoint study on my website if curious.
Rev 14:11 and Rev 20:10 both draw from Isa 34:10. Sorry, Not literal. Isa is saying that Edom will be destroyed and the wasteland will smoke forever. Southern Jordan is not still smoldering. The symbol means that the destruction will be absolute and total. There will be nothing left, but ash. This is called hyperbole. It is an exaggeration for emphasis. Edom is not still burning but it is utterly destroyed. Likewise Satan and wicked will not be tormented forever, but will die.
#184 Luke 20:35-36 Believers in the resurrection don’t marry and don’t die=to the angels. Angels don’t marry and they don’t die. Read both verses. Evil angels broke the rule, according to your own belief, they married. Consequences they die. I don’t have a problem with fallen angels attempting to procreate with each other and make baby angels. By such, the broke the law (no marriage for angels) and fell. Soon, they will reap the consequences and die.
But I do have a problem with angels hybridizing with humans. My biggest problem with partly-human hybrid people is how it affects the GOSPEL. Jesus only died for the sons of Adam (1 Cor 15:22). If Nephalim were not fully human, then Jesus didn’t die for them. But Jesus died for ALL people (Rom 5:17; John 3:16), thus all people are human. If Nephalim came through the flood and infected the Canaanites with non-human DNA, then are there still Neph Today? Maybe the Taliban? That was sarcasm, Taliban and ALL people are 100% human and need a savior. Belief in non-human hybrid people undermines the Gospel.
By your definition, spirit is the life force of animation and is only operable with a body, then what is a ministering spirit (Heb 1:14) or an evil spirit (used 55x)?
I’m figuring that our personal spirit is analogous to the structure of an angel or demon. They are spirit beings. Do you see our spirit analogous to them?
You said if the unsaved are breathing they have spirit. This is true in the simple windy sense of pneuma eg: James 2:26- nothing metaphysical this verse is just noting the obvious: If he is not breathing then he is not alive.
I find this breathing idea to be the norm in the OT. But elsewhere in NT I think there is more to pneuma than just breathing. Consider Jude 1:19, read it in Greek. No def article, it actually says they have no spirit. Translators mistakenly added THE, which is not in Gktext. Unsaved have no spirit per Jude 19. Obviously have breath, so this means something deeper and I think metaphysical. It is the spiritual inner man (Eph 3:16) they are lacking.
If pneuma is life force of animation only (I think that is a function of psyche), and if believers have the HS superglued to our life force, then why do Christians get old, decrepit, weak and waning in life force? If we have a supernatural life force bound to our own life force, shouldn’t we live strong and healthy forever? But life slips away with old age, even for Spirit filled believers. Why?
If life force is a function of psyche (per my idea), then all humans have the same power. Christians die of old age just like anybody else, because psyche is the same. Granted we have a clean mind, they have a dirty mind, but no HS superglued into our nephesh. HS is superglued to our pneuma, which I see as not related to life force. I see spirit as vehicle for relationship with non-dimensional space (spirit realm).
Rom 8:6 those thinking about sarx have death, those thinking about pneuma have life/peace.
How does this fit with the idea of unsaved have perfectly ok spirit?
Jay,
I retract my statement about the pyramid being pre-Mabool. You are correct. Sorry. As I also stated, the Mabool wiped away all evidences of man. Although the presence of boats, statues, pottery, etc. does not necessarily have anything to do with pyramid dating itself, as such items (even engravings) could have been added at a later time. I will disagree with you about whether there were nations before the Mabool, but agree with your comments about Mizraim.
To make the statement that Peleg did not witness the continental drift but instead witnessed the dispersion of the Babelites is questionable. Peleg came 2 generations after the confusion of tongues. The meaning of his name also becomes irrelevant according to this statement, & so I disagree. The scenario I am proposing is that 2 gens before Peleg there was the dispersion of peoples that populated a solitary landmass (Pangae), and only afterward could continental separation have occurred. There are huge difficulties with the migrations of all creatures (including man) if this were not so. I am not necessarily saying the continental drift was the mechanism that caused the division of land masses. Drift does not account for the relatively short duration of the event. Modern ideas are always used to interpret the Scriptures. The world is not flat! Something certainly happened to get the dry (land) from its original state per Gen.1:9 (solitary) to its current geography. Please explain your view.
I agree w/ your observations about Sumerian/Akkadian cultures being post-Mabool. These cultures are referenced in Scriptures as such. I do not believe I ever commented to the contrary.
Heb 4:12 division of soul/spirit?: I believe the interpretation of Heb.2:4 “gifts” implies unique gifts are given to unique people, which is a division of gifts. That would go hand-in-hand with what Eph.4:11-12. God is involved in dividing, separating, cleaving, etc., as well as gathering, joining, uniting, etc.
Hello Patrick, #181 I agree when you said Adam “quenched the HS.” However, many people have a common misunderstanding of “quench.” It does not mean repressed or separated. Quench means to put out, extinguish. Firemen quench a housefire by adding water. It stops the burning process prematurely while the wooden fuel source is still available. Quenching alters the outcome of the fire.
Isa 1:31, Jer 4:4 say that God’s wrath cannot be quenched. Another words firemen are NOT able extinguish God’s anger. It will burn its course, until it is satisfied. God’s judgment upon sinners as unquenchable (Isa 66:24 et al) does NOT mean that it will burn eternally with conscious torment. It means that people cannot divert, extinguish, derail God’s intent.
Isa 34:10 Edom (Southern Jordan) is not still burning today.
Jer 17:27 the palaces of Jerusalem are not still on fire today.
Ezek 20:47 the forests of Israel are not still ablaze today.
These were never quenched, but in due time they ran their course and naturally ceased without proactive extinguishment.
If firemen “repress or separate” afire then it is contained, not quenched.
Thus, I agree that Adam extinguished the rauch within himself. As you say, Adam lost his glory coat.
#183 Satan destroyed or turned into a nachash?
Eze 28:18 remember Hebrew verb is imperfect (not yet complete). How does that fit with satan changing from cherub to snake? That happened long time ago-perfect tense. Also 28:18 says that the change into ash happens while people watch. Another words satan is publicly executed and humiliated in the process. I don’t see any connection between ash (efer) and snake(nachash). Pls explain.
Being turned to ashes is a long standing warning to the wicked (2Pet 2:6). I take it literally, they will cease to exist as people (nephesh)
You did not address Eze 28:19 satan will exist no more. How do you see that one?
Excellent selection of rauch vrs.
Gen 4:18- check ref-no rauch; Deut 2:30 + Dan 5:20 Sihon+ Belshazzar’s breath were heavy, difficult, harsh+fierce. This is idiomatic same as hardening the neck.
Several vrs speak of evil peopl difficulty breathing. Josh 5:1- Amorites lost breath. Apnea of courage; 2Chron 21:16 Philistines are agitated. These do not refer to the metaphysical-immaterial spirit. That spirit is peaceful, good, wholesome, above anger and reproach. The immaterial spirit comes from God. Perhaps it even is a part of God (I accept Grk Theosis) Spirit is not fierce, cowardly, and belligerent, thus these verse idiomatically mean breath.
Prov.16:32-notice the parallel. Slow to anger > mighty. Controlling your breath (tongue/words) > conqueror. Fits very well with proverbial wisdom and also with Jam 1:26. What does this mean if it really does mean controlling the spirit?
Eze 3:14 is an interesting verse. This is Ez’s calling. God tells him that he will be a prophet to a stubborn rebellious people (Eze 2:3). I want you to go on a failure mission, no one will listen or obey, but I want you to do this thing. Ez is bummed out. If it had been me, I’d ask: Why can’t I have a job like Daniel? Ez got stuck with a sorry job. Then God tells him to eat a scroll of lament. This is probably to learn and synthesize the message of destruction +exile that Ez was to repeat. Ez is not a happy camper. 1st he is overwhelmed by the glory +power of God. 2nd he gets an impossible assignment where God TELLS him that they won’t listen. In 3:14 God teleports him over to the Kebar river area. Ez is bitter with hot displeasure on his breath. But the power of God prevailed and Ez obeys.
Interestingly Isa was enthusiastic “here am I send me!” Ez is bitter at his assignment. The fact that his rauch was bitter and mad at God is evidence that we are not talking about spirit, this is breath.
You had 1 more rauch vrs worthy of comment. Mal.2:13-17 need to read as paragraph. They are wailing, moaning, crying, and praying loudly at the altar. These are breathy actions. Air is expelled across the larynx as they wail and cry. Yet they are hypocrites because they divorce their wives while they are praying and making sacrifices. Guard your breath, let your voice be in accord with your actions.
As I said rauch OT vrs all seem to indicate breath/wind. This includes voice as speaking is air based.
#I83 Eze 28:13 l liken the pretty stones that were the cherub’s covering to the breast plate of the HP in Ex 28:17. Interestingly, satan’s covering has 9gemstones+gold. High priest’s covering has 12+gold. They are identical except the 3rd row of the breastplate is absent on satan. I have no idea what that means, but I suspect it does have meaning.
Sorry, but I don’t see the connection with Isa6. Perhaps you can explain further. The covering cherub hovers over the mercy seat (Ex 25:22). This was satan’s original job before the fall. The breastplate of judgment (Ex 28:15) so called because it was only worn on Yom Kippur, when the HP was drizzling blood on the mercy seat. So there is a mercy seat connection with these gems stones. Whereas the atoning coals come from the golden incense altar. Different piece of temple furniture.
#190 is the spirit (metaphysical nonmaterial aspect) repressed (your word) or dead? I can’t find “repressed” in bible. But state of being dead even while still breathing is clearly taught (Eph 2:1, Col 2:13). Likewise from #187, new creation only means a “changed heart”? Whereas I understand an entity ontologically comes into existence upon salvation which had not previously been there before.
For me, your version is watering down what the text actually said. Ironically, I who love metaphor and symbolism, take these more literally than you who’s preference is for literalism. Funny, huh?
#186 you said spirit has limited emotion. Consider the following:
Gen 26:35 grieving spirit; Gen 41:8 troubled spirit; Gen 45:27 spirit perked up; Ex 6:9 anguished spirit; Numb 5:14 jealous spirit; 1Sam 1:15 sorrowful spirit; 1Chron 5:26 stirred up spirit; Job 20:3 understanding spirit; Ps 34:18 humble spirit; Ps 106:33 provoked spirit; Ps 142:3 overwhelmed spirit; Prov 11:13 faithful spirit; Prov 16:18 proud spirit; Ecc 1:14 vexed spirit; Ecc 7:9 hasty spirit.
My point is that rauch appears to be significantly more than just limited emotion. OT rauch has the gamut of human feelings. This is evidence for me that it is not speaking (in the OT) of immaterial spirits, but about ourbreath/language. The words that come from our mouth reveal the thoughts of our nephesh. You had said once before, I agree that rauch +nephesh are very closely related. All of these feelings and thoughts come from the mind+heart.
Isa 26:9notice parallel between nephesh and rauch. Both are meaning life/thoughts. Again in Isa 57:15 rauch +leb (heart) are paralleled.
Here is one without theological significance, but funny: Job19:17 his wife thinks he has bad breath. Always about AIR.
I will agree with a metaphysical new spirit in the NT which is ALWAYS good/pure/godlike, but I don’t think it was ever expressed in the OT. Sometimes rauch in OT has bad thoughts (eg: proud spirit in Prov 16:18).
So I’m thinking that the rauch of man is common to all humans. It is source of life+breath. It utters words,feelings, emotions of both good +evil. In the NT, this basic meaning is still evident, but another new definition for pneuma is born. NT includes the OT definition, but also stretches the envelope. A metaphysical immaterial aspect of man that transcends the body and communes with God. This new and improved spirit meaning is unique to man, animals have breath only but not spirit. It is the image in which man was created. Something happens between OT+NT causing paradigm shift.
Mat 10:28 Some people have observed that this verse only has 2 parts of man, not tripartite. It only mentions body[soma] and soul [psyche]. Why? When evil rebels kill the body of a Christian, they have no power to kill the psyche. Psyche is best understood as mind/heart/personality/being. This is good evidence that Christians are not bound to soul sleep. When they kill the body the mind still lives. I think this is because Christians have another structure, an immaterial one, the spirit. When the body dies the spirit still holds the thoughts and consciousness of the individual. This body death and continued life of the mind (via the spirit) is what happens now in the current age to all testifying Christians. I agree with your martyr idea within the strict Greek definition only. Those who bear testimony of Jesus, whether or not they are actively put to death because of it.
Eschatologically, after the Last judgment, unbelievers will be condemned by God and cast into the LoF (Gehenna). The text says that God destroys body and mind. What about the spirit? This is where it gets interesting. Remember in my thesis, the spirit of the wicked is dead, non existing from birth. They have no spirit (Jude 1:19). God will judge and destroy that which rebelled. He will not create a new spirit and then destroy it for sins which the spirit had no involvement. Unsaved people are never given spirit, which is God’s nature. Not even in the final resurrection, they will be judged as they had been in life. This is fair and just. To create a new component that had no culpability in the lifetime of sin and then to destroy it for the mistakes of the other components would not be justice.
So my interpretation of this verse is 1) Christians don’t die just because the body dies. 2) Unsaved are judged in the fashion in which they sinned. How do you reconcile this passage with body-soul-spirit?
Ham marry Naamah? From Cain to Naamah is 6 generations. From Seth to Noah is 9gen. Possible since they lived so long, but unlikely +pure speculation.
Gen 6:9 “pure in his generations” does NOT mean genetically 100% human. Parallelism: righteous man=blameless generation. God does not care about genetics, he judges the mind/attitude not the body/chromosome. Giants+midgets are all good if they honor God. Same word ‘blameless’ is used in Gen 17:1 for Abram.
Gen 6:5 man=Hebrew word adam. Adam’s name means man. Wickedness of Adam caused the flood, not nephalim.
LXX consistently translates Heb ‘adam’ into Gk ‘anthropos’. Both words mean MAN.
Acts 17:30 only anthropos are called to repent. Acts 22:15 we only witness to anthopos
1Tim 2:4 god only wants anthropos to be saved
Thus Nephalim, if sired by demons are not adam/anthropos/men. As such they are not sinners under this covenant and are eligible for salvation under this covenant.
Herein lies relevance toward AB blog: #162 you appear to think Nephalim go to Sheol in Eze32 and do the talk, because they are exempt from silence/noknowledge clause since they are not fully human? Creative. However Eze 32 says that the kings in Sheol are from Asshur, Edom, Elam, Tubal and the north. You’ve explained the pre-deluge Asshur idea, what about Edom+Tubal? Were they also secret unrecorded pre deluge civilizations? Edom was children of Esau-post flood. Tubal was son of Japheth in Gen 10:2 table of nations. Or do you think Ham’s post flood hybrid offspring infiltrate these nations with nonhuman beings? I previously was concerned about impact upon gospel message by non-human people, please clarify your thought.
All the mighty in Sheol were slain by the sword, not drowned in Mabool. Eze 32:31 Pharaoh sees+feels good. Pharaoh has feelings +thought while he is in sheol. Is Pharaoh Nephal?
Patrick, I’m getting ahead of you and almost caught up. Hope all is well.
#178 Abaddon =shakhath. Agreed. Shakhath is a highly poetic word. I equate it with sheol (grave), bowr (pit), abaddon (corruption). Hebrew poetry is strongly parallel. The repetition shows synonymy. They all speak of death. They all refer to the same place-the grave. It is a place of unconsciousness, no action or thought or planning. No one worships God or prays from there. No afterlife, just death.
The angel named Abaddon in Rev 9:11 is not dead. He and all of his grasshopper buddies are quite alive and pissed off. He is never said to be in sheol/bowr/abaddon/shakhath. But he is named after that place. Death is his hobby. He loves to kill. Ironically when he is released from his prison (bottomless pit/tartarus) he will not be permitted to kill, only to torture those with the mark. I take this as fairly literal and future. A bad bunch of demons/fallen angels will hurt unbelievers during the GT. I have a study on website about scrolls/trumps/vials, if interested. You won’t like it because it is a highly symbolic interpretation. Feel free to critique but not in this blog.
Bottomless Pit (abyss) is not a place of no thought. It is different from sheol. It is a real geographic place. Demons in Luke 8:31 did not want to go there. Only angels/demons are in there, no people. The occupants of abyss appear to have mental faculties. These are the angels to whom Jesus preached shortly after the resurrection.
shade (consuming) demons? saweers (corruptors)? Verse? Pls clarify. Perhaps you meant sayir (hairy goat) idol in Lev 17:7.
Yes, I agree that dark spiritual realms interact w/& govern over the physical world. If there was an evil angel over Persia, then I bet there is today an evil dominion over USA.