I remember when I was young, I was taught that there was a place called “Abraham’s Bosom.” The way it was explained to me made perfect sense at the time. You go to heaven if you trust in Christ. You go to hell if you don’t. People go to heaven because Christ’s atonement on the cross paid for their sins. God cannot be in the presence of sin (Hab. 1:13). Therefore, those who are covered by Christ’s death can be in the presence of God. Those who are not, cannot. 

So far so good? But there is a problem: what about all God’s people who came before Christ’s death? What about Abraham, Moses, David, and Isaiah? According to the theory, they were not yet covered by Christ blood. Conclusion: they, before Christ’s death, were not in the presence of God. They were somewhere else waiting for their sins to be covered.

This “somewhere else” was known as “Abraham’s Bosom.” Think “Protestant Purgatory” or something like that. Abraham’s Bosom existed as a holding tank for God’s people until Christ’s death on the cross. Once the atonement was made, Abraham’s Bosom it was vacated as all its occupants were ushered into God’s presence in heaven.

The name “Abraham’s Bosom” came from the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16. “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried” (Luke 16:22). Notice, this parable was given before Christ’s atonement. Therefore, people have said that this must be the place, between heaven and hell, that pre-Cross saints went to.

Why there is no such thing as Abraham’s Bosom

As nice and tidy as that might sound theologically and biblically, it does not really work. There is no such place as Abraham’s Bosom.

First, the idea that God cannot be in the presence of sin is untenable.

The passage in Hab. 1:13 simply means that God is too pure to approve sin. It has nothing to do with sin or evil being in God’s presence. Here are some of the reasons:

  • After the fall, we find God walking in the Eden with Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:8).
  • Satan himself can be in God’s presence. In Job 1:6, we see Satan presenting himself before God (see also 1 Chron 18:18-21; Rev. 12:10).
  • Christians, who are still sinners (1 John 1:8), are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Obviously the Holy Spirit must be able to be in the presence of sin.
  • Christ, God incarnate, was in the presence of sin the whole time he walked the earth (John 1:14). He was even carried in the womb of a sinner!

Second, the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus does not teach that “Abraham’s Bosom” is a separate heaven.

In the parable, Christ is confronting the religious leaders’ bad theology. They were lovers of money (Luke 16:14). They believed that being rich and healthy was a sign that God was on your side. If you were poor and sick then God was not with you. In the parable, the rich man, whom all the Pharisees thought was the best Jew with great rewards waiting for him in heaven, found himself in torment in Hell. The poor sick man, who was, in the mind of the Pharisees, a bad Jew, was ushered by the angels to Abraham’s “side” or “bosom.” The idea is not ontological (dealing with a physical place), but relational. To be at one’s side or bosom represented the closest place of fellowship one could have with another. The one who the Pharisees believed was not a good child of Abraham winds up at the closest place of fellowship that there is—Abraham’s bosom. Christ was being rhetorical. The rich man is unnamed and forgotten forever. Lazarus’ name means “God helps”. The rich man dies and is buried. The poor man dies and is carried by the angels. The rich man goes to hell, “far away” from Abraham (Luke 16:23). The poor man goes to Abraham’s side, in heaven.


Saints in the Old Testament did not need a special dispensation. God can be in the presence of sin. If he could not be in the presence of sin, we are in big trouble. Nevertheless, they were forgiven in anticipation of Christ’s atonement. When David, Abraham, Moses, and other Old Testament saints died, they immediately went into the presence of God on the bases of Christ’s shed blood, though yet future.

Romans 3:24-26
“Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”

C Michael Patton
C Michael Patton

C. Michael Patton is the primary contributor to the Parchment and Pen/Credo House Blog. He has been in ministry for nearly twenty years as a pastor, author, speaker, and blogger. Th.M. Dallas Theological Seminary (2001), president of Credo House Ministries and Credo Courses, author of Now that I'm a Christian (Crossway, 2014) Increase My Faith (Credo House, 2011), and The Theology Program (Reclaiming the Mind Ministries, 2001-2006), host of Theology Unplugged, and primary blogger here at Parchment and Pen. But, most importantly, husband to a beautiful wife and father to four awesome children. Michael is available for speaking engagements. Find him everywhere: Find him everywhere

    335 replies to "The Myth of “Abraham’s Bosom”"

    • patrick


      Mal 4:3 was written 150 yrs AFTER Edom fell: Pls read Isa.63:1-4. This is the description of the LATTER DAY winepress judgment spoken of in Rev.19:15. Mal.4:3 is the same. I do not consider your quoted statement about the fall of Edom incorrect, but Mal.4:1 is speaking about the last days as well! What the prophets spoke on (millennial) day 3 will be brought to pass in its FULLNESS on (mil.) day 6 (sometime “today”). If you fail to make the determination that mil. ages are being acted out after the Creation pattern that God declared from the beginning, & if you fail to see that the Creation Days are laid out in the pattern of the menorah (1&4, 2&5, 3&6, 7, or 3 symmetric branches about 1 center branch), then you probably will not realize this (about which I am guessing will be difficult to convince you). The Spirit’s 7 Natures (Isa.11:2) are laid out exactly in this same manner (note the conjunctions “&”), which is precisely backed up by Rev.4:5. Prevailing Spirit Ages (dispensations) are thus so pre-defined. Much of what the prophets spoke only came to pass in their day (3), but only in partiality, which is totally glossed over by the church. The FULLNESS of what the prophets spoke on day 3 will ONLY come to pass on day 6. The church wants prophecy to be consigned to the past because of “modern” reasoning. Even the events spoken of in Mat.24 by the Messiah are largely consigned to the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD, by our most popular “scholars”, which to me is heresy. Edom is Esau – he who despised his birthright & lost his blessing. This has both literal & figurative meaning. The perpetual smoke will commence just prior to the mil. kingdom. Edom will be the location of the LoF – the place we should call Hell according to our current understanding per the common church teachings. What portions of prophecy came to pass on day 3 serves as credibility for the prophet, plus gives us a mini-scenario from which to build latter day event upon – 2Pet.2:19.

    • patrick

      Excellent selection of rauch vrs: Sorry for the misprint – Gen.4:18 should have been Gen.41:8 – Pharaoh.
      Deu.2:30 – qashah (hardened) is also used in Exo.7:3 (God hardened Pharaoh’s heart) & Exo.13:15 (Pharaoh was hardened about letting us go). Does not sound respiratory to me! This is an angry man that his set his jaw against doing something.
      Dan5:20 – tequef (hardened) is also used Dan.4:22 – ” it [is] you, O king, who have grown and become HARDENED; for your greatness has grown and reaches to the heavens, and your dominion to the end of the earth.” This vs., applied to the same person, & regarding the same event, sounds less like breath as opposed to a conscious stubbornness.
      Josh.5:1 – Amorite kings – no ref to ruach, but “heart”, which I take as “guts” or “bowels”. They were afraid at the sight of Israel’s crossing of the Jordan into their land. We have all had that gut-wrenching sensation that makes us want to check our shorts. My guts don’t breath, nor does my heart.
      2Chron 21:16 – the spirit of the Philistines were stirred up. Again, to read hard breathing is not what is being conveyed, but they were upset. Again, anger is the chief emotion that pertains to the spirit of man.
      Prov.16:32 & Jam.1:26 – The tongue & words may be related in the former vs., but that is always the case when your ruakh gets agitated.
      Eze.3:14 – You give an interesting explanation. I agree with the content of your argument, but Ez is not bummed out – he is furious! Again, the one emotion attributed w/ the spirit of man (as I have been saying), which links it with the soul.

    • patrick

      Mal.2:13-17 – Not buying. Take heed to your breath is entirely missing the point. God is soundly warning them about the consequences to setting their wives aside. Same is the AB verse against the money-loving Pharisees. God’s wrath is coming upon such.

      I also did the breastplate study. Made my brain hurt. Can’t figure out how/if that vacant row of stones relates. Evidently there are “nine” tribes of the heavenly host? But, that aside, whether the precious stones (Eze.28:13 – those used to cover) are the same as the fiery stones (Eze.28:14,16 – those walked amongst) seems doubtful to me. Those fiery stones may be coals, but I wouldn’t argue that point after looking at the word for fiery itself (Looks like I need to re-open that study). If the fiery stones are coals, then I would guess them to be altar coals (sacrificial or incense). Since incense is prayer-related (Rev.8:3) and Isaiah’s lips were cleansed, I would say these were incense coals.

      repressed spirit (metaphysical nonmaterial aspect): You are probably correct about repressed not being in there. Sorry. But first you have to answer my Rom.7:9 question from Post 190, before I make my response. That’s only fair, and it seems like I have asked you this more than once. Zero anomaly tolerance.

      new creation only means a “changed heart”?: The change of heart I am speaking of is not a run-o-the-mill changed heart, but involves the grafting of the HS with our own metaphysical spirit, which, if you look at it from a broader aspect, is a new creation.

    • patrick

      Angels (As) & demons (ds) are treated distinctly. Fallen As (FAs) are never refed as ds or vice versa. No d is ever refed as being in heaven, but only on earth. A’s are freqly refed as being in heaven. Satan (S) & his FAs fight against Mishael & his As. The battle is in heaven – S & his FAs are cast out. Are ds in heaven? 2 types of OT ds – saweers & shades. What determines the type of d a FA becomes, if ds = FAs? The refs to As indicate their man-ish appearance, not goats, locusts, women, etc. FAs had children by women – no d is refed as doing that. Ds come out the mouths of the dragon, beast & false prophet. If S has a d (FA), this is odd. Gabriel was delayed by the prince of Persia (evidently a FA). Ds are never refed as princes, but As (Mishael). FAs are concerned w/ offspring (sons of God cohabiting w/ women, long hair a covering), or w/ securing realms (heavenly domains & nations) to rule. FAs want to see who’s greatest, pitting nation vs. nation – w/ the stronger god prevailing. No d is ever interested in earthly realms, other than a human host. Ds are concerned w/ possessing men (spirit’ly, phys’ly & ment’ly). No FA ever entered a man as is mostly the case w/ ds – except S, who entered Judas; but S was a cherub, & so is unique, not being in the form of an A, who are in man’s image. S draws 1/3 of the As to himself. His army is woefully small, him being on offense. If ds don’t = FAs, then this helps balance the 2 armies’ sizes (powers of light vs. dark). If there are 2 separate d classes (saweers & shades), & each is prop. in # w/ 1 another & = in # to the FAs, then this balances the 2. If God’s army is 3xs the size of S’s, then where is the glory? Doesn’t God need to show that His righteousness beats great odds? Do d-possessed men actually produce giants when they mingle w/ women? If ds = FAs, then why, when the sons of God (ds) cohabited w/ women because they saw they were beautiful, do ds also possess men?

    • Jay Altieri

      Rom 7:9 Thought I already answered in #177. 0anom!
      #186, good analogy. I like it. Definitely helpful for explaining your perspective. My twist also with non-perfect analogical thought: I would say that Mom is dead. The kid is an orphan living in the house by himself. He doesn’t know anything except trashing the place. He thinks trashing is normal. One day the kid gets old +dies and is held for trial by the Landlord as you said. Another kid who lives down the street, also an orphan with the same problem of a dead mom, meets a glory-kid named Jesus. Miraculously, mom comes back to life. Kid shapes up his behavior. Mom +Kid live happily ever after with Landlord.

      One difference would be you said that all moms are basically the same. Mom is a commodity. Everybody has mom. All moms are alike. No so for my system. My mom is different from your mom, just like my house is different from your house. The orphan kid, tragically never knew his mom. This is where the analogy falls apart- my orphan kid never even had a mom. In your analogy kid+mom are both PEOPLE(soul+spirit are similar structures)

      A better analogy for my system would be 2 HOUSES. Body+spirit are analogous structure. Soul(mind) dwells therein. Every Kid has a valley house, but the termites in the valley are bad. Kids that meet the GloryKid Jesus, receive a Mountain house too. Kid has 2 houses, one in the valley and one in the mountains. GloryKid is our roommate in the mountains.

      #190 “Hope for res” vrs “no afterlife.” Resurrection is the bodily final state. OT prophets anticipated this Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19; Dan 12:2.
      Resurrection is the reanimation of the body. This is the promise to Israel and the hope of believers. It will be eternal life in the redeemed new earth. Sin+sinners will be extinct.

      Afterlife is an intermediate state before the resurrection. It is where dead souls go. My point was that OT prophets believed in the first but not the second.

    • patrick

      Can’t post my reponse to your “spirit has limited emotion” post. The upshot is that some of the words are a condition (not emotive), but that most of the remaining emotive words are anger-based, except for pride & humility, which I need to account for in terms of pride being a bad aspect that the spirit can develop (as opposed to my former statement that all spirits were good, and essentially the same – wrongo!) So a spirit can learn bad things, though it starts out good. Thanks!

    • patrick


      A few brief observations about our views on man’s spirit:

      I have read that you believe man’s OT spirit was merely non-metaphysical breath. I have read that many people in the OT suffered from breathing problems (usually accompanied by a state of agitation) & that this was merely a physical condition as opposed to a SPIRITual one. I have read about the emotional OT breath that is troubled, perked up, anguished, jealous, sorrowful, stirred up, understanding, humble, etc. & all the while you emphasize that the OT spirit was just breath. You have likened our NT spirits to that of the spirits of demons &/or angels that were in existence before OT times, which were & are metaphysical, non-breathing creatures, but it seems after all that man’s spirit is not really his own (nor did he ever even have breath according to Jude), but is the HS, which does not attach with us in any way.

      However, on some points you have shown me certain aspects of the words in play for spirit & soul that do not fall precisely in line with my own interpretations. Yet, it seems you have similar problems concerning the above items. Perhaps we need to discuss the potential that we are both somewhat in error & that the real truth (as often is the case) lies in the middle-ground between 2 views?

    • patrick


      Your quench = my quench, but God’s fury toward sinners, after His warning, will not change – ever. He will not wake up 1 day & say, “I have changed My mind!” God doesn’t change – no shadow of variation in Him. A week after the GWTJ God will not say, “You know, I may have been a little too hard on those depraved souls. Let’s turn down the heat a little.” They will have been found (in the GT) to have been violent, cruel murderers & sorcerers who willfully accepted the Satan’s mark, trampling the cross of the Messiah & counting the Spirit of God as a common thing – which is an unpardonable offense. God will not be changing His mind about Satan either. 7K yrs & His attitude is still the same. 4ever means 4ever. Edom will be burning 4ever. The concept might be that the new earth will have a new core that Edom will be turned into. The new place of the dead returns to the center of the earth.

      Eze.28:18 – I don’t get too hung up on tenses when it comes to God – Rom.4:17. What is an imperfect or perfect verb to Him who is & was & is to come? If the dragon is turned to ash (dust) in the LoF, then the prophecy is fulfilled, but I wonder about efer & afer – is there something going on there? “Afer thou are and to apher thou shall return”, and “you shall eat afer all the days of your life”, and “seeking whom he may DEVOUR”. The dust eater turned to efer? What’s your take on Satan’s trans in form? Nawkhash & taneen are an interesting pair of seemingly interchangeable words, but I doubt that nawkhash, who are poisonous, were ever a part of the original Creation. Transmogrifications seem to be an early-on theme in Gen. This matches the effects of sin, & goes to show the effect the spiritual can have on the physical – much as I was saying about disease.

      Eze.28:19 – after he is turned into efer Satan “will be a terror no more.”

    • Jay Altieri

      #195 Peleg, I don’t think this has any relevance to AB. I feel a little guilty for consuming Michael’s blog disk storage space talking about this. I wish you would email me for these off base conversations, besides I want a personal introduction of who you are. Patrick, you have forced me to rethink, clarify and detail much of my thesis more than my book even includes. Now I’ll have to do a 2nd ed. Thank you, that is a big complement, most people are not as detailed and analytical. Even if we disagree on some points of theology, we are obviously kindred hearts. I love your most recent idea that perhaps we are both wrong. I’m sure I’m wrong on many things. That’s ok. Being wrong helps us to learn and grow. Only a problem when ego gets stuck on our idea. Thanks for your help, Let’s keep learning.

      Back to Peleg-I can’t resist. There are 2 evangelical opinions, both consistent with the text for extent of Mabool.
      1st-your idea: Global. preflood Pangea was small, tight, and flatter. Kangaroos (Austr only) and raccoons (NorthAm only) could easily walk to ark. After Mabool, they scattered to respective regions. After that the continents broke up. Continents didn’t break up during flood, (or kangaroos would be trapped w/ Noah). Overall, your idea is probably consistent w/ text, but has serious problems with history and common sense logic, which I will be happy to detail for you in an EMAIL.
      2nd theory toward which I lean is that Mabool was regional. It was centered in ANE, it wiped out humans (save Noah’s family). Koalas, orangutans, Kodiak bears unaffected. For study of the hyperbolic language about “all high mountains covered” see my study here:
      You said that Peleg was 2 gen after Babel incident. How do you figure that? Genealogies give us names of people but do not benchmark events. Except for Peleg being born during the “Division”, which I think is the Babel incident, self referencing with Gen 11

    • Jay Altieri

      #187 1 Cor 5:5 That is a tough one, but in the end I disagree. I concur with your observation about him being leaven, but note also 1Cor 5:10+11. KJV says this man is “called a brother.” That is a little sarcastic translation as if he is not really a brother but he falsely purports to be one. ESV is a little better. He is named as brother. This word is a verbal cognate of a powerful word ‘onoma.’ To have a name in antiquity is to have character, being, personhood. I don’t have characters to fully develop the significance of naming in Scripture, but would recommend some independent study. To have a name is to have existence and reality. Notice in Eph 5:3 the same scenario, using much of the same vocab. Paul is writing to real Christians in Ephesus. Apparently it is possible for fornication to be named among true believers.
      Thus, my conclusion: I think the guy in 1Cor 5:5 is a born again believer, albeit backslidden and at risk for spiritual death. So his spirit is alive, at least for the moment. Spirits died in the past, so they can die again if you DONT nurture it and if you DO poison it.

      You think John3:3 is future of the bodily resurrection? So you are saying that we are not born again today? It hasn’t happened yet? Rebirth occurs at the Coming of Christ? Ouch, what do we have today? Only a 2000yr old promise, yet unfulfilled? I see this totally differently. After Pentecost, upon salvation the believer is reborn. His pneuma is re-created as new creation. It is an ontological birth in the spiritual dimension. As I said baby spirits can die, so it is important to feed it. For present tense re-generation, see 1Pet 1:3; 1Pet 1:23 both use the word anagennao. Peter uses very similar words from Jesus’ vocab, but this time it is present tense. We are reborn now.

    • Jay Altieri

      #191 Agreed that ‘hell’ mean hidden. The Nordic baggage of that word very heavy. Hel was daughter of chaotic Loki in Viking myth. She shares name with underworld. She presides over unclean halls of shameful dead. Vikings thought heaven+hel were like giant buildings. Val hall is best place reserved for valiant warriors who fall in battle; Thor is there +plenty good beer. There are 9 halls to heaven for virtuous and 9 halls to hel for cowardly. Exactly as you said, in medieval English and German hell came to mean hidden. To hellen onions was to keep them in shallow pit.

      #195 you said that Mabool “wiped away all evidences of man.” But going wayway back to post#85, you were thinking that Neo Assyria of Eze period was named after the pre-deluge mythic civilization also called Assyria. It appears to either be wildly coincidental that they share the same name or the remembrance is an evidence that survived the flood.

      #204 Agreed that hardened breath is idiomatic for “set his jaw against.” I think we are saying the same thing here. My point is that rauch in OT means thought +emotion. Sometimes it is good thought, sometimes it is bad thought. Which by definition, a priori, is from nephesh. In OT I do NOT see tripartite psychology. Which is evidence that in OT 3 parts didn’t exist, only after Resurrection did pneuma gain metaphysical definition.

      Changed heart-new creation means grafting w/ HS? How does that fit with new birth? When you mix 2 preexisting ingredients (think cake batter) it comes out a new item. This is grafting as in Rom 11 olive tree. Israel is preexisting, gentiles are attached. However, new birth language seems more distinct than that. Birth bring something from nothing. What you are describing is a gameo (marriage) of spirits, not a gennao (birth)of spirit. Pun intended. 1John 3:9 our spirit BORN of god, then after that event, you are correct in that we are MARRIED to Jesus. I think you are skipping a step.

    • Jay Altieri

      #180 Unsaved person can’t hold their breath too long proves that they have a spirit? Maybe I didn’t understand your point, but people can’t hold their urine after a certain time, or their farts either. How do these bodily functions (breathing/peeing/pooting) have anything to do with metaphysical spirit?

      #203 We have much agreement. I fully agree with Edom as figurative for endtimes beast, you would like my Edom PP on website.
      I’m ok with Edom as LoF, I agree that LoF is a literal geographic locale. A trash pit (Gehenna) wherein all is turned to ash. You need to read my book, this is covered. However, I disagree that a perpetual burning Edom will suck into the center of the earth. Edom would be a pimple on the face of the NHNE. I like your creation days imaging menorah branches. I understand +do not object. I also like Isa 11:2 =7 spirits of Rev 4:5 =7dispensations. I’ve not studied this, but don’t object. If you have link or reading resource for further studydetails, pls direct. How would you ordinate the 7?
      7= of YHWH
      1+4= wisdom +understanding
      2+5= counsel+might
      3+6= knowledge+fear I’m not sure what any of that means, but possible parallels are interesting.

      I’m definitely more skeptical when this is stretched into 7k time epochs. 4thM= 1adtill 1000ad=understanding. This was millennium of late roman empire, Gothic invasions, dark ages, Islamic birth+ expansion. Only event qualified as “Understading” during this K is Constitintine’s conversion of the West.

      #206 FAs +Ds. Interesting theory. I’m not sure if they are different or same. If you have full length study link or paper that you have written, I’d be happy to review. I don’t have a dog in that hunt and don’t think it is applicable to this AB blogtopic, but am always willing to listen and learn.

    • Jay Altieri

      209- you are on target, brother. I fully admit that I aint got all the answers. I acknowledge my difficulty with OT rauch. OT rauch clearly has pride/trouble/no courage/etc. Yet my theory requires metaphysical spirit to be perfect and godlike image, so as you’ve pointed out my interpretation of OT rauch as purely temporal and not spiritual seems a little contrived. I need to polish that, but I think the nugget is there. Although my position is not JUST physical air breath, definitely has emotion, thoughts and close overlay with nephesh. The way that I figure it, this is all that they knew, because in my thesis man’s spirit had been dead since Eden.

      I do think NT pneuma continues with that same definition many times, eg: Luke 8:55 breath returned; James 2:26 no breathing is dead. But as I’ve said many times, something schema changing and metaphysical happens (Resurrection of Jesus) and a fresh coinage of the old word is introduced.

      I need a slight correction on my rauch study in OT. I’ve been saying that rauch doesnot have a spiritual metaphysical definition. That is not exactly correct. What I want to say is that rauch doesnot have a spiritual metaphysical definition as applied to HUMANS.
      The rauch of YHWH is used about 78x. An evil rauch (demon and/orFA)is used 14x. These are both spiritual metaphysical beings.
      I think the metaphysical aspect was poorly understood by ancient Israelites, it is undeveloped and never applied metaphysically to men.
      But none the less, there is an undertone of spirituality /metaphysical sometimes associated with the word. This gives the NT author a springboard for clarification and application of the pneuma with a metaphysical meaning as directly applied to believers.

    • Jay Altieri

      Quench. Agreed that God never changes. Think of sin as a debt. If I owe Him $100, then He will collect $100. If I owe him $500 then He will collect $500. If Jesus pays my debt for me, then I owe nothing. I am square with God, yet the debt has not been quenched. It was paid in full by Christ (Xp).
      If the sinner does not allow Xp to pay, than the onus of debt is upon yourself. Sin has wages. It must be paid. God always pays a fair and level wage, so that when the debt is paid it has not been quenched (prematurely extinguished), but neither does he exact punitive costs. God carries level scales. Not too heavy-not too light. A precise reciprocal of torment for sin will be levied in LoF.

      However, paying off a debt is totally different then buying into life. Eternal life cannot be bought. It is not for sale. This is the beautiful part. Jesus pays for my sin, as a legally binding contract with the Father, AND he gives me a gift of eternal life. Soo generous.
      The wicked however, do not receive the gift. They pay every last penny for their crimes and then they are snuffed out 4ever.
      You really need to read my book.

      Your no quench means that God’s anger is eternal. Not so, see Ps 85:5, Ps 103:9, Jer 3:12 . It means that somewhere in the cosmos exist wicked who are still acrimoniously cursing God. Not so, see 1Cor 15:28. It means that pain and suffering will be an eternal feature of the New Cosmos. Not so, see Rev 21:4.

      Eternal torment on the right wing says that God will punish and torture sinners 4ever. Universalism on the left wing says that ALL will enter heaven. Conditionalism is in the middle of the road. Sin+sinners will be exterminated. Justice will be had, evenly fairly, without vindictiveness. Then for eternity, every atom and every wisp ofspirit will be in unison with God. Total unity of the cosmos.

    • patrick


      I apologize for getting behind (I think about 8 posts), but work has been really crazy of late, and I have my daughter’s birthday coming up to boot! I am not ignoring you and will resume the posts when things settle down for me a little. Until then, God bless (and please don’t bury me in post sheol – my nephesh would be in agony – ha ha). See ya!

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, don’t worry about getting behind. you’ll catch up soon enough. I’d still like for you to email me with a personal introduction exchange of who we are and where we come from, church/education background, etc. That sort of stuff probably shouldn’t be on the internet. According to the dates on the posts, we’ve been at this since June 24. I’d like to know more about with whom I am conversing. Are you in the US? Are you in jail? Are you in the same building as me? Please email me at jay at drymalla dot com.

      Ok now down to business:
      Your 208″spirit can learn bad things” interconnects with my #200- Mat 10:28 “spirit is not judged.” If the spirit learns bad things then why is it not destroyed along with body+soul? Individual personal spirit would have culpability and should be punished, yet scripture teaches (Gal 5:17) that metaphysical spirit is always pure and just-juxtaposed to the flesh. It is not present in the wicked that get killed per Mat 10:28.

      In post155, we agreed that spirit is always good. 1John 3:9 real life experience confirms that legitimate Christians DO sometimes sin, so I interpret this verse to mean that such sin never comes from the spirit (that which is born of God). Also 1Pet 1:23 we have incorrupable seed. You had previously said that being born again (John 3:3) was still a future promise of the resurrection, I must disagree. We are born again now.

      I like this you said in 209 trying to understand my thesis:”seems after all that man’s spirit is not really his own, but is the HS.”
      Maybe I need to develop that? Perhaps instead of a personal spirit, what we are given is actually a piece of God?

      Rom 4:17 Thanks that is a good verse for me to add to my repertoire. God calls into existence stuff that doesn’t exist. This verse appears to backup what I’m saying. God created something new +fresh in the faithful that had not been there before. I think it is the regenerated, reborn, re-created pneuma.

    • Jay Altieri

      Efer+afer, you have excellent points. I think there is definitely a close association. I suspect the words are related. Consider: Gen 18:27; Job 13:12; Job 30:19; Job 42:6.
      The destiny of man (and also of disobedient spirits per Eze 28:18) is to return to the ashen state. This means utter destruction of everything that is you, holistically even nephesh[mind personality]. All of the sinner is disintegrated, decomposed, atomized. Another words, they don’t exist anymore. Even the pneuma (in case of FA only) is turned to pixie dust, which I’m likening to a spiritual version of physical ash. In my system the human spirit disintegrated long ago, it is only by a resurrection miracle that we have one today.

      Do you have fireplace at home? Take a big oak log. It weighs much. It has bark, wood grain, billions of cells of cellulose and plant fiber. Burn it overnight. It turns to ash. A fine powdery substance. Chemically it is very different from wood. Ash is almost pure carbon, whereas the wood was a much more complex organic molecular structure with lots of O2 and N3.
      Modern science cannot turn back the process. Turning wood into ash is easy with a match, but turning ash into wood is impossible (except for God via resurrection).

      My point is that if Satan and all the wicked are turned to ash, then the remaining pile is not Satan and/or the wicked anymore. It will be irreversible, the consequences will be eternal, for there will never be any resurrection from the 2nd death. This is good news, all sinners all sin all evil will be utterly destroyed and the cosmos will be safe and pure throughout eternity.

      210- 4ever means 4ever? Basically what you are implying is 4ever as used in Scripture means 4ever as defined in modern west.

      I blogged about this elsewhere here: http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/06/folk-theology-twenty-urban-legends-in-theology/comment-page-1/#comment-98169

    • patrick


      Still loaded at work, but thought I would try to get a quick response out.

      Mat.10:28 only mentions body & soul: Yes, because men fear having their bodies destroyed, but the LoF will destroy the soul (not the spirit because there aren’t bad human spirits, although I still owe you an explanation about “proud” spirits – on my to-do list). When the body dies the soul is dead, but it’s not like body-dead. Soul-dead & body-dead are very different. Soul dead seems to be the lack of input – if at rest in AB, lack is not experienced because the soul sleeps; if not at rest, then in the place of torment, than lack will drive you crazy. If under the altar of souls (persecuted to death) then not sleeping or lacking, but awake in a great place of joy.

      Are you saying the spirit is just a “Christian soul bucket”? Please provide refs, if so.

      Which Old Testament human spirits returned to God who gave them, as stated in Eccl., and according to your interpretation?

      I believe martyrs are those who are killed for the 1 of 2 reasons GIVEN in the Rev. There really can be no question about that – can there?

    • patrick

      I had some time last night, and thought I might try some new verses on you. Please interpret the following in light of no spirit of man prior to around the time of the ascension of Messiah:
      Num.16:21&22, Num.27:16, Prov.16:2, Hos.9:7

      Also, here’s one:
      Heb.12:22&23 – if the spirits of just men are made perfect, is that the same as them (spirits) coming back into existence with the good confession? It doesn’t sound so to me. Made perfect kind of sounds like its functioning, but not on all cyliders until the HS comes in.

      1Pet.3:18&19 in light of 1Pet.4:6 – if not the spirits of antediluvians, then who? Angels are not DEAD, as 4:6 states, and these are definitely pre-Mabool spirits!

      1Joh.4:1 – NT false prophets have spirits? Comp. w/vs. 5. I suppose you’ll say these are demon-possessed, but it sounds like just guys to me. Are they saved?

      Rom.7:14, Rom.15:27 & 1Cor.10:3&4 – why would God give Israel “spiritual things” if they were spiritually dead. Seems kind of futile, don’t it?

      I haven’t read your latest posts yet, so hope I’m not missing something there, but, I WILL GET TO THEM SOON, and looking forward to it. Hope all is well. God bless you.

      Rom.7:14 –

    • Jay Altieri

      Christian soul bucket: yes I like that. Thanks. Yes that is the idea. We agree soul=mind personality consciousness. I get it from dichotomy between OT death of being vrs NT with Christ (Phil 1:23; 2Cor 5:6-9) ,seeing His glory (John 17:24), Live even though dead (John 11:25), +many others. Adam DIED the same day he sinned vrs Jesus (2ndAdam) makes ALIVE.
      Body is a soul bucket too. Everybody has a physical soul bucket for about ave70yrs. Christians have restored to them what Adam had before the fall, an immaterial soul bucket. But Eden is only partially restored (Already-not yet tension) someday in resurrection, we will get deathproof body too.

      I think you are confusing the Greek word ‘martyrios’ used in NT with the English word ‘martyr.’ Gk word simply means having testimony, being a witness, it is a legal word from a jury trial. By the 3rd cent it became apparent that if you were a testimony for Jesus- they killed you. English word means to die for Christ. Biblically, you cannot rule out from under the altar Xp’s (Chi-Ro) like me+you who are Witnesses but are not Killed. Your interpretation is superimposing a 4thC definition onto a 1stC text.

      As for Ecc 12:7 see post 133. Ecc 12:5 olam bayit (eternal home) is the grave. Man is granted 70yrs(Ps 90:10). 70 is a drop in the bucket-nothing in terms of the world (Jam 4:14). But the grave is forever (Ps 49:10-11; Job 7:9-10; Ps 78:39) Job 17:13 says sheol is my ‘bayit.’
      Silver cord loosed, golden bowl broken, pitcher shattered, wheel busted: all 4 sayings are parallel for when body dies, which is context of whole chapter. Must ignore New Age garbage about silver cord being life giving linkage to astral self. It is same as wheel busted. When you’re dead you can no longer praise God (Ps 115:17; Isa 38:18).

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, I’m fixen to be away from wifi. I’ll read and ponder your wisdom but probably not post back much. Pile it on deep as you dare and I’ll reply to everything when possible. This is your chance to get caught up. If you email me I’ll give you the whole story.
      But 1quick answer, while I’m here. 1Cor 10:3-4 Israel received MIRACULOUS food and drink. Pneumatikos= pertaining to the spirit. God is a spirit, thus pertaining to God. Manna, quail, water were all of God.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, are you still out there listening and thinking about the intermediate state? There were numerous posts from August to which I never heard your thoughts.

    • Gary Wentz

      Blessings in the Lord to all here.

      This has been an interesting thread to read. Thanks to all contributors.

      It seems to me that the Bible says very little about these things; but that doesn’t stop us from expounding much about them. I hope that none of us is putting too much emphasis on the little things, only to miss the big picture.

      May I take this opportunity to share a theory of mine?

      I see that life exists in 3 realms (but not for us). They are:
      1. The physical realm (the time, space, matter universe we are in)
      2. The spiritual realm (the place where angels dwell – what Paul called the third heaven)
      3. The Divine realm (that place where created beings cannot go; where God alone dwells)

      Think of these as concentric circles, with the physical in the middle; then the spiritual; then the Divine. The angels can pass between their realm and ours, but we cannot (not without divine intervention) and God, of course, permeates (or inhabits) all three.

      I hope that this is biblically consistent.

      My take on the discussion at hand is that if the physical realm is so vast; why can’t the spiritual realm be even more vast (if vastness is a characteristic of it)? Who can say with certainty what divisions or chambers or regions it is made of?

      It seems to me that one of the most profound differences between our temporal state and our eternal state is that we will have perfect knowledge on the other side. I think it is this knowledge that makes all the difference in what Paul calls being in the presence of the Lord. Perhaps it is having an awareness of his presence that we cannot relate to here. ie, when we have shed our sinful bodies and moved on to the next realm, could we not simply be acutely aware of our Lord’s omnipresence?

      Personally, I have no problem with some sort of intermediate state (whatever that is) between this body and the next (which Paul calls a mansion in comparison). I think that there is much more to the reality than we can…

    • patrick


      Still working long hours, but need to catch up some.

      Ham marry Naamah?: Yes, there’s a difference in the # of gens between Cain’s line and Seth’s, but it appears both line are up to 1656AM. Naamah and Ham were the last gens before the Mabool. The difference in gen #s may be an indication about slower giant maturity toward reproduction, or the debit placed on Cain’s line due to a lack of available girls taken. God does care about genetics, that’s why He put discreet boundaries on all kinds (seed within itself). The nephilim are fallen ones – no redemption possible. Might be a soul issue. Do angels have souls?

      Kings in Sheol: In terms of Eze.32 & nephilim speaking from sheol theory, see Eze.32:21 & Eze.32:27 (the mighty are the neph). Most of the kings you sited are NOT the mighty, but some are: Edom is Esau. Esau took Edom (formerly Senir), reckoned mighty in Eze.32:29, from the Horites – giants.
      Kings of the north and Sidonians are reckoned mighty. Sidon was a giant town. The Caucasus (sp?) region (north) is definitely known for giants historically, but don’t think Scriptures ref. I don’t assign any post-Mabool nations as pre-Mabool, unless I am cleared to do so from the Word. But look at the names of places in America – did we name any of our places from past places? I think it would be similar, but wouldn’t want to argue the point. The point is the neph MAY be the mighty who speak from sheol.

      Is Pharaoh nephal?: Mizraim was a son of Ham, & several refs to tall Egyptians; monolithic structures only from the early kingdom, which is otherwise weird (cultures usually aspire to grand works, not start and quickly fall off). Pharaoh means ‘great house’, and Egypt is a figurative portrait of death (not the world as most commonly taught). So I would say ‘Yes’ to nephal.

    • patrick

      #178 Abaddon = Shakhath: Abaddon is not dead – correct – angels do not die. I believe it can be inferred that he is indeed is in Sheol, both from Rev.9 and Job 28:22. Where do you think he hangs his hat? I’m surprised you didn’t relegate him to being just a metaphor. Way to go, bro!

      Bottomless Pit is a sub-compartment of Sheol for spirits only. Shades and saweers – need to look that one up for you. That’s going way back, have to check my notes. Sayir = saweer (I have my own handles, as I write a lot, and have assigned names). Shaggy, tempestuous, sea goat, which is a class of demon. Lends support to sinning. Shade – devouring demon related to disease, though doctors don’t seem to comprehend; best represented by the plagues of locusts mentioned several times in the Scriptures. I also assign the women with wings (Zec.) as demons – call them Astrals. Related to sorcery/divination, etc.. I’ll dig up more for you on this topic when I can.

      All nations are under the jurisdiction of angels. Today, only Israel stands under the watch of a holy one. At least that’s my take on the matter. I don’t remember America that well – seems like a dream that had already faded when I was born back in ’60. It died around the time of the Civil War by my reckoning, maybe a little earlier.

      I live in Indiana, within a 200 mile radius of Indy. Never seen prison. Never got caught! Haha. Am an aero engineer. Been saved since ’90. Don’t have the internet at home – too much distraction/not reliable, so post from work at lunch or after.

      Hope you are still around. I’ve missed the exchanges.

    • Jay Altieri

      Hello Patrick, We have both been away for awhile. Good to have you back. I was on vacation for a couple of weeks. We went to Iceland. Yes Iceland: volcanoes, glaciers, waterfalls, seals, stunning scenery. Email me and I’ll send you a picture.
      #221 Num 16:22; 27:16; Prov 16:2 are interesting because they are among the few verses in the bible that use the plural ‘spirits’ (rauchot). YHWH is the god of the spirits of all flesh. Usually the plural rauchot is used about the 4winds eg: Dan 11:4; Jer 49:36, etc. Sometimes multiple angels eg: Zech 6:5; Ps 104:4.
      I think “harauchot lekal basar” (I wish we could do Hebrew font) is best translated the breaths (pl) of all flesh. That sounds funny in Eng because our word breath is both singular and plural at same time. The meaning is that God is giver of life to all creatures (all flesh types). Satan does not have power of life, only God. Satan cannot even resurrect a bug! Thus the dispensational theory that Satan resurrects the Antichrist in the last days (head would healed per Rev 13:3) is foolishness.

      Prov 16:2 YHWH weighs the breaths (pl). Not meaning air from respiration, but thoughts from talking. You are accountable for what you say. See also Prov 21:2 God weighs the heart; 1Sam 2:3 weighs actions. For God to weigh an immaterial metaphysical spirit would be silly. Are big+tall spirits better then skinny spirits? NLT +NIV have good translation-God weighs the motives.

      Hos 9:7 is probably speaking of demons. “The prophet is a fool, the man of the spirits(pl) is crazy.” Clearly not speaking of God’s prophet or God’s Holy Spirit. Must be demon spirits(pl).

      Good to have you back with stimulating questions and thoughts. Be blessed in Yeshua.

    • patrick


      Regional Mabool: I disagree w/ a local Mabool (Heb word is unique). GLOBAL. The geolog rec confirms, despite science’s musings. Young earth. Clams everywhere up & down the fossil record. Cambrian EXPLOSION. No organisms before, & mostly fish besides clams. Fossil evidence of death on such a wide scale would otherwise make death natural, not a judgment. If natural (per science), then the gospel is silly. 600′ deep mudflow covers the US – all laid down at the same time. To get a fossil a body must be buried fast, & deep, to prevent decay. Also needs the right minerals & watery conditions to assure deposition to replace bone. Nothing accounts better than a global water cataclysm, because fossils are everywhere. The ark’s specified size was overkill if your proposal is correct, but the given dimensions are comparable to a modern (stable) barge, unlike Gilgamesh’s cubic descriptn. Sunken monoliths are worldwide, almost always off continental seacoast shelves, etc… What is ANE (center of flood)? No pre-Mabool “high mountains” as today, but more like what we would call hills. Much evidence exists requiring major mountain ranges to be considered as young. Good read: Ages in Chaos, by I. Velikovsky. Although I don’t agree w/ his theology, he respected the OT & was ostracized for it by science. He gave the global evidences, which really pile up. Several other Christian scientists have similar works, but Dr. V has the best collection, w/ refs. He was multi-disciplined.

      Peleg was 2 gens after Babel incident. How do you figure?: Nimrod founded Babel. Peleg is 2 gens after Nimrod (you have to use the gospel gen, which includes Cainan). Peleg’s name is associated w/ both earthquake & water action. The Scriptures state that in “Earthquake’s” days the earth was divided – Gen.10:25. Not the diaspora from Babel, when man was scattered across, Gen.11:9 – 2 gens gives man enough time to travel far away, animals had even longer.

    • patrick


      You think John3:3 is future of the bodily resurrection?: In the strictest sense, yes! I fully agree with you about the present tense of being reborn – if I didn’t I would not be saved! Upon a good confession of Messiah, we are repeated told we are immediately given the Spirit. We are currently in a state of being nurtured & equipped by the Spirit, which is extremely important & not to be glossed over. We are students, or disciples of Messiah. The Spirit is given us as a seal and a guarantee – 2Cor.1:21-22 & 2Cor.5:4-5 – but to imagine that we are FULLY born again & not account for our resurrection, and our final deliverance from the sin nature would be ludicrous, in my opinion. For some strange reason the Church seems bent upon masking this concept from view. We will stand on our feet to be confirmed in the resurrection under a state of duress. Death is our release from sin, but resurrection through Messiah is truly REBIRTH into new life, and the focal point of our salvation. At that time we will be dead to sin, abiding in the Spirit, shunning all former sins that so easily beset us today. When Paul stated, “that which I will to do…” he was addressing our CURRENT situation, but there is coming a day when “that which we will to do, that WE WILL DO,” through the indwelling Spirit that bodily clothes us with His power and glory. Yes, we are reborn now and figuratively “see” the kingdom of God, but YES, we will be reborn in the resurrection and THEN literally “see” the kingdom of God. Rom.7:24-25 indicates that the flesh must also be dealt with. The last enemy to be overcome is death.

    • Jay Altieri

      #221 Heb 12:23 Grammar, grammar, grammar. Notice assembly of the firstbornS is plural. Prototokon not Jesus (He is singular in person), this is many. It don’t mean firstborn chronologically, that was Jesus. It means that their spirit is firstborn before the flesh (body res). This agrees perfectly down to the conjugation of the genitive adj with my theory. The spirit of believers is born first at salvation and spiritual regeneration, then at the Parousia+resurrection the body is reborn too.

      Notice that these spirits are an assembly/company/church. To have a congregation of spirits strongly implies they are awake +conscious. There is no church of dead unconscious people in the grave. Sheol is a place of solitary loneliness, not a place of communal assembly.
      Notice that the verb enrolled/registered/written is perfect tense. Past tense and completed action. Since the body res hasn’t happened yet, it must mean the spirit’s new birth.

      “and to the spirits (pl) of righteous people who have been perfected”
      The root verbal ‘perfected’ =’telos’= aim, event, purpose. God’s goal was redemption/salvation.
      The verb is plural, masculine and perfect (past) tense, meaning that the goal is fully complete.
      Put it all together and what we have= God’s plan of redemption of these many human spirits, now found innocent through Jesus, is fulfilled and complete. Notice it does not say the souls (mind) of righteous people, because that would require body resurrection for completion.The whole passage is a comparison Sinai vs Zion. Law=death, but Jesus=Life. Do you think these perfected spirits are dead?

      Sorry, but your notion that to be completed there must have been an incomplete spirit preexisting to start with is not supported by the text. I humbly suggest that is only in your head. God’s completion of His plan is not contingent on our preexistence.
      Thus, yes I agree with your 1st thought: It is “same as them (spirits) coming back into exist with the good…

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, I feel that you have taken 1Pet 4:6 out of context. There is nothing about pre-flood nephalim in the passage. Step back for a moment and do a speed read of the entire book. Forget your pet theory momentarily. The book of 1Pet is about suffering for the sake of Jesus, while we eagerly await His return. I wish pre-tribbers would do a speed read, but that is another blog. 1Pet 4:5 the wicked will have to account for every action, God will judge every person at the last day. Not just those who are currently alive at the time of the Parousia; the dead will also be judged. The gospel was preached (evangelizo) to people who are now dead. Of course they had been alive at the time of hearing it. This was written in the mid 60s. Peter has 30years of memories, people who have died, and still Jesus has not yet comeback.

      Peter used same phrase in Acts 10:42, where he was commanded to evangelize living people of his own time.
      “judged in the flesh as men are so judged” means that they died. Death is the judgment given to men, because death is the wages of sin. This death happens after the evangelizing. Notice first they were evangelized, then they died bodily. But because they had been evangelized, their spirit (inner man) lives. NLT has the best translation of this oft bungled verse: “That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead–so although they were destined to die like all people, they now live forever with God in the spirit.”
      I prefer a small “s” indicating a personal spirit. Pneumati (in the spirit) is opposed to sarki “in the flesh”. The flesh of man dies, but the spirit of man can live. The life of the spirit is not universal for all humans, but is contingent upon acceptance of the gospel as presented earlier in the verse.

      This is the comfort of 1Pet 4. Although we are persecuted and hated, and will likely die for our faith, know that our spirit lives on.

    • Jay Altieri

      A refute to the notion that dead people from before the flood have been evangelized post mortem:

      If they die as unbelievers then they died as wicked sinners, correct? Consider Ps 115:4-8
      The idols are made of wood. Wood logs have carved ears, but cannot hear. Notice Ps 115:8 the people that make idols (implicating ALL sinners- your modern idol may be money or sex) will become as the log without sight, hearing, taste, smell, touch.

      Pre-mabool sinners are dead. Also non-Christians who died last month are dead. None of them can hear or respond to the gospel. According to Rom 10:17 without hearing it is impossible to be saved.
      Thus the opportunity for repentance is only available to the living, for the dead cannot respond. TODAY is the day of salvation (2Cor 6:2).

    • Jay Altieri

      As for 1Pet 3:18-19 partially answd in#176-spirits=demons, not human.
      Notice that Christ goes to “spirits in prison” AFTER he is quickened by Holy Ghost. The holy ghost does not teleport around with dead cadavers. He makes alive. Quicken means to make alive, to resurrect, to animate something. So after Jesus was resurrected, THEN he went to the prison house of demons. Point being-many people think Jesus did this during those 3 days while he was dead. That is silly since dead people can’t DO anything.
      The word preached=kerusso. This not sameword used 1Pet 4:6 (evangelizo). Kerusso means proclaim as victor, a herald. What was Jesus proclaiming? His resurrection! Conquering death and sin! Crowned Master of Universe to whom ALL authority has been grntd! This is further evidence that event occurred AFTER the Res. Paul says that w/o Res all is waste time. There is no victory w/o Res. Preaching doesn’t necessarily mean sharing of the gospel. In this case, I think no option for salvation- because it was giving to FA+Ds.

      I associate 1Pet 3:19 with 2Pet 2:4 tartaroo (prison with chains) and with abyss (bottomless pit) Luke 8:31, Rev 9:2, Rev 20:3 and Jude 1:6 (under darkness). See my book at the end of chapter 1 for a review of these verses.

      The way I’m seeing it, a long ago these demons did something extra bad and got locked up in solitary confinement. No roaming about, they are chained. They are cutoff from rest of spirit and temporal world, so they had no clue what Jesus had accomplished. Satan+Legion and all the other regular duty demons probably had it figured out shortly after Easter morning. After the resurrection (possibly after Ascension), Jesus went to Tartaroo (2Pet2:4) in the spirit (1Pet 3:18) In the spirit another words it is not a temporal locale. Possibly it is chamber of LoF. He proclaimed God’s victory over creation. These prisoner demons would be sentient beings “under the earth” to fulfill Phil 2:10.

    • Jay Altieri

      For reasonable explanation about the “spirits”of 1Pet 3:19, Try this link: http://www.jba.gr/spirits-in-prison.htm
      My only critique is demon-human sex.

      RE#221 Good catch on 1John 4:1-3. 2possibilities: Either pneumata are breaths (preaching-witness) of the prophets (both false +true) which need to be tested. Or maybe these spirits are angels+demons which guide the human witness. Personally, I prefer the angel+demon guardianship idea but it could go eitherway w/o contradiction. False prophets do not have an inner man living spirit because they are not saved.

      #226 Abaddon. The Heb word used 6x (eg: Job 26:6) is synonymous with sheol, qevar, bowr. They all mean grave/death in poetic fashion. Rev 9:11 speaks of an individual badass FA of that name. Not Satan, but some other guy who has been locked up since days of Noah (see my post about preaching to spirits- Abaddon was presumably one of those spirits). The angel named Abaddon is not in sheol, (although he is named after that place) because he is alive and sheol is not a real geographic locale- my position is that sheol is poetry for state of death.

      Abaddon the bad FA is currently in the abyss, tartaroo, under darkness. This is a real place with demons locked up, possibly it is a chamber of LakeFire. So our only difference is that you are ascribing it to sheol a metaphoric place of death, no action, no thoughts, no behavior.

      Agreed on modern medicine and politics denying spirit world involvement. Disagree that modern political nation of Israel is protected by angels. Holy angels encamp among the righteous only (Ps 34:7). Ps 91:11 believers only have guardian angels, notice the antecedent to “you” as given in Ps91:1.

      Modern nation of Israel does not dwell in the shelter of God. Jewish religion denies the messiah, as such they have become anathema (1Cor 16:22).

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, hope your having a good day.
      If Naamah was a hybrid giant and if Ham married Naamah, then Naamah got a boat ride on ark, so that Canaan/Anak and later descendants could still be hybrid giants. In #162 you said purpose of mabool was to wipe out nephalim. Did God fail his purpose since Naamah got past?

      My thought is that mabool was judgment on MEN (adam is Hebrew word for man), not on mystic hybrid demon/people soulless creatures. Have you been watching Doctor Who again? 🙂

      God’s discreet boundaries of seed within each kind is a good point. Are humans and angels of the same kind? 1Cor 4:9; 1 Cor 13:1; lists angels +men in contrast, they are different kinds.
      Ps 8:5 man is different kind from angels.
      Heb 1:13 Angels do not sit on Christ’s throne, but humans have that permission (Rev 3:21).
      Heb 2:5 Angels do not have dominion over the world, but humans do (Gen 1:26).
      Thus my conclusion, angels and people are of a different kind. Hybridization between different kinds is not possible.

      You ask: Do angels have souls? Although I don’t think the Bible gives a direct answer; Yes, I think they do. Our definition of soul is mind/thoughts/emotion/being, so obviously angels+fangels+demons and all other creatures have a soul. God is specifically said to have a soul in Lev 26:11; Lev 26:30; Isa 42:1; Zech 11:8; Mat 12:18; Heb 10:38.

      Perhaps what you meant was did Nephalim have a spirit? FA+Ds are a spirit, so if they had been sire, did Nephalim have a spirit? My theory is that before Christ nobody had spirit and there is no such thing as a hybrid.

      BTW Patrick, If you don’t have email at home, you could try a web based gmail or yahoo account, Its free. Then you could email me.

      What is your church affiliation and training background? You are quite knowledgeable, I’m impressed with your studies.

    • patrick


      Hey! You are swamping me when I am down! No fair!!! Try & show some restraint here, will ya?

      You stated: ‘#195 you said that Mabool “wiped away all evidences of man.” But … you were thinking Neo Assyria … was named after a pre-deluge civ. It appears to either be wildly coincidental that they share the same name or the remembrance is an evidence that survived the flood.’ Explan: The HS, speaking thru Eze, recalled pre-Mab Assyria – revelation. Noah’s sons would also have recollected it & told their kids. This would account for the reuse of the name. Pre-Mab Asshur may have been a hero among post-Mab men.

      In OT I do NOT see tripartite psych: I do, because all 3 are ref’ed. To me, the spirit is related to our survival instinct. The spirit strives to keep our BODIES alive, reacting to perceived threats – evidently sometimes w/ pride. I still maintain the Spirit-grafting scenario (intro/union of 1 spirit w/ the Other), because I still see the OT refs to spirit as mostly metaphys.

      God Born vs. HS grafting: 1John 3:9, NKJV reads ‘Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; & he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.’ I still sin. The chapter, to me, deals w/ life after our res – see 1John 3:2. Note also in 3:2 that He will be revealed. Does this happen when we die & go to heaven, or when we see Him coming on a cloud? When is Messiah revealed (1Cor.1:7, 1Pet.1:7, 1Pet.1:13)? The res is to the feet on earth. Our ultimate rebirth into new life: when we STOP sinning. Our grafting w/ the Spirit restores the Adam-severed spirit connection so that our eyes are opened to God. Adam’s fall produced eyes opened to his lack (his realized nakedness/shame due to NO MORE Spirit glory). The opening of his eyes did not kill his spirit, but blocked his connection w/ God so that he could comprehend evil. Reconnection allows the Spirit to renew our mind/soul (Rom.12:2), but spirit glory only comes after res.

    • Jay Altieri

      ok, your turn go again.

    • patrick


      I wasn’t being mean when I said you should show some restraint, but I think you posted me 6 Xs in a row! Low blow bro. I see Gary is interested in our posts – why not see what he has to say while I try to whittle down my backlog. You are a VERY curious fellow.

      Unsaved person can’t hold their breath too long proves that they have a spirit?: I never said that, you did. Don’t marginalize me or I’ll hold my breath till my spirit pops out! I was attempting to make the point that a man’s spirit, which animates his flesh, allowing the soul a means of getting around to experience life, is emotive when it comes to survival. Other spirit functions were severed when Adam disobeyed God: his spiritual access to God, along with his Spirit-provided glory. Both are now blocked. Salvation based on confession of Messiah cures the former right away, but the latter only comes when we see Yeshua at His revelation in the clouds.

      I fully agree with Edom as fig for endtimes beast: Edom is the grapes that go into the winepress of God’s wrath, and the lion’s share of the geog of the LoF. You could say that the beast will be cast into “Edom” (the Lof), but the beast is not Edom. I won’t argue whether Edom becomes the new earth’s core, as I can’t support it. Merely musings. I will say that it has to go somewhere, because it is 4ever.

      I like Isa 11:2=7 spirits of Rev 4:5=7dispensations: I haven’t heard anyone else mention this. It’s my personal belief.

      How to ordinate the 7?: Try 2Pet.1:5-7. Virtue (Fear of the Lord) through love (Spirit of the Lord). Love = 7, for it stands alone in Isa.11

      Not 7k time epochs, but 7, 1k yr epochs. The epochs aren’t laid out per our millennial dates, as you presented. Place Dan.9:25 at the 3,500 year mark working backwards & forwards & I suspect you will have it, but I wouldn’t trust to 517BC as being the correct hard date for when Dan’s clock started.

      FAs +Ds: You got my full condensed sermon on why Ds are not…

    • patrick

      …FAs in #206. See ya!

    • Jay Altieri

      Yes i got an email about Gary but oddly his post never showed up. Gary If your still out there, please try again. Feel free to jump into any thoughts or questions that look interesting.

      Your turn. Please catch up.

    • Jay Altieri

      Gary, I found your post up at 225. Guess I overlooked it. I thought it never got posted, but I did get an email. The post date is 10-1, but my email date was 10-3.
      Oh well, thanks for reading and listening to all this between Patrick and myself.

      I like your 3 spheres idea. I would clarify that in the divine sphere nothing really ever happens. Having an exclusive God sphere means that He is above creation, outside creation (contra pantheism). There was a point in eternity past when time nor matter existed, but God was there.
      I agree with your spiritual and physical spheres, but I would clarify that in the beginning before fall, they were holistically united in 1. God did not originally create the spheres disjointed and invisible. That is result of sin. When Adam sinned the spiritual world was rent away from the temporal world. When that happened, Adam’s presence in the spirit world ceased (died). This is the crux of one of our debates on this blog. Now we see darkly into spiritual things, as through a bad mirror, but in the restoration of all things, these 2 spheres will be merged. NHNE will again be like before the fall. The 2 will be synthetically recombined, so that in the eschaton we will have good knowledge of both halves of the universe, but we will never be omniscient.

      Currently, as physical bodies, we have a pretty good handle on the physical sphere, but we lack sorely in comprehension of the spiritual sphere. I suspect dead saints with Jesus during the intermediate period have exactly the opposite problem. They probably understand their own spirit realm well, but have a foggy notion of what goes on down here. Thus praying to saints is sort of worthless.

      The intermediate state is a reanimation of the inner man within that spirit realm (the ALREADY aspect), the synthesis of the 2 realms at the final resurrection will provide the NOT YET aspect.

    • patrick


      The way that I figure it, this is all that they knew, because in my thesis man’s spirit had been dead since Eden: If the Scriptures were merely the writings of men, then they would be useless, but the HS inspired men w/ truth, whether they understood spirit, or not. Breathing is a function of the spirit, just as animation, for the breathing must take place in order for animation to continue. I believe God, by grace, gave the first man his own spirit, & fellowship, through that life force, w/ His Spirit. The outward manifestation was glory, which served as a protection against harm (death) – again, even God’s Spirit is motivated to keep us in/raise us to a new life. If we had no remnant of our spirit left we would be both physically & spiritually dead. I also believe God can be witnessed in the Creation in this way: The Father represents space (in Him we live & move & have our being); the Son represents matter (He was seen & handled by men) – He is Ambassador to man, being the son of God and the Son of Man; the Spirit represents time – He energized the universe & started it in motion – He is the Comforter and Nurturer who raises from the dead. We have similar components w/in our own personages – we have a soul (mind), a body, & a spirit. W/out the spirit we would all be physically dead, & time would cease for us. In terms of OT understanding of spirit, consider the presence of demons – relatively little activity witnessed in the OT – only commentaries from above. But, when Messiah appears, THEN the demons have light shown on them – they are revealed in the presence of the Son of Man. So too, the spirit of men was also newly exposed & understood.

    • patrick


      The wicked … pay every last penny for their crimes and then they are snuffed out 4ever: You use the word quench in assoc. w/ paying a debt, which I am not familiar w/. Refs? The more Scriptural definition is that a debtor remains in prison (here, the LoF) until every last penny is repaid. Of course there is no means for repayment, because the man already rejected the help of the only Man that was willing to bail him out (pay His debt). As such he’ll never get out of his prison. 4ever. & God doesn’t change. Your view of paying for sins & then being snuffed out seems to indicate the snuffing out is better than the rendered payment. Your refs to God’s cessation of anger are all toward Israel, and so, are out of context. Israel has no part in the LoF. Israel is on a circuitous route to meet their Messiah in order to gain the Gentiles in the meantime. You say there will be no more death, but the LoF is the 2nd death. All things will be put under the Father’s feet immediately after the GWTJ, but men are cast in during the GWTJ – this places the duration of debt paying down to a very short time. Nowhere does it say that men will be cursing God from the LoF, but it does say tongues will be dissolved. No more tears deals with physical bodies, not souls in torment – souls can’t shed a drop. God does not punish/torture, but offers deliverance from punishment/torture. God saves.

    • patrick


      In terms of church affiliation, I suppose I would be most oriented toward Baptist because, in my opinion, they have the best overall doctrines, but, as you may have surmised, I do not follow all of their teachings. I am ashamed to say I’ve found little comfort in any church so far. As a result I continue to study at home, and teach my own family. I see my foremost duty as a father is to make sure they understand their spiritual choices, and equip my children to defend the Scriptures against modern science. My background is that I have read the Scriptures multiple times (once out loud), and for the last 10 yrs or so have turned my attention to topical studies. What about you?

      If the spirit learns bad things then why is it not destroyed along with body+soul?: I am still digesting the “proud spirit”, and haven’t come to any final conclusions yet. Before I met you I believed all the spirits of men were good, but oppressed, but now I am facing off with spiritual pride – the pride of life (spirit = physical life)? I have only found 3 verses on the subject: Prov.16:18, Prov.29:23, & Dan.5:27. If you were to believe that every man has his own spirit (I know, but play along), then what would you say about a prideful spirit? Should it be classified as good, or evil?

    • patrick


      You had previously said that being born again (John 3:3) was still a future promise of the resurrection, I must disagree. We are born again now: I never said we weren’t born again NOW – I believe we are, but the testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy, and, in its FULLNESS, we won’t be officially born again until we are raised from the dead to new life. The Scriptures bear this out by telling us to reckon ourselves dead to sin based on Messiah’s finished work. Well, if it’s telling us to reckon, and we know there is a literal time of reckoning coming when we WILL experience bodily death, is there no significance to that? We NEED a post-death body experience to be truly set free from sin into new life. Perhaps you’d like to take a stab at what Gal.4:19 really means. I find no difficulty in assigning our true born again experience on the day I’m raised to new life from the earth’s womb – Psa.139:13-15

      Perhaps … what we are given is actually a piece of God? Ok, so you and Shirley McClain have a lot in common. Come on bro, you’re scaring me! That comes at the marriage of the Lamb, when the 2 shall become 1.

      Rom.4:17: “…(as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he (Abraham) believed – God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;” When I quoted this vs., it was to say I do not get hung up on tense, but I suppose you could apply it to your theology concerning spirit, although Adam had it first (I.e., not something new, but very old).

    • patrick


      Efer+afer: Some of the verses you quote seem to use both terms as a colloquialism. I do not believe disobedient (immaterial) spirits will be reduced to ashes, but only the material dragon. Eze.28:18 therefore eliminates the possibility of the dragon being metaphysical. When you look at the Hebrew word for taneen (great sea creature), one of the meanings comes out as “a mercenary” (see Strong’s). The terms nawkhash and taneen are used interchangeably for Leviathan and Rahab (yes, I know it’s an epitaph for Egypt). The idea I have is that at some point early on, perhaps even during the latter days of the Creation, a taneen was induced to allow Satan to enter into it for some sort of compensation for assisting him in his rebellion. The physical aspect of ashes being the endpoint to the anointed cherub suggests some material manifestation of Satan, as we see in Gen.3. Also, since man’s soul & spirit are immaterial, I would not apply the efer/apher aspect on them either. Bottom line: the verse is applied to an immaterial cherub who has some material-related judgment to his form. Odd, until you find out in the Rev that the serpent of old = Satan.

      4ever means 4ever?: Whether modern or ancient, I believe “perpetual” can be understood as an acceptable trans regarding olam, but I do not disagree that it can also mean a long time. Have to take it verse by verse. Also, Rev.14:11 uses the Greek aeon, which also conveys “perpetual”. Not buying your bread here. You wouldn’t wat to tell your friends, “Hey, even if you don’t accept Messiah as your Lord & Savior, it will only hurt for a minute!” Can’t accept this. Let’s keep the fences up so the children with straying tendencies will be safer.

    • patrick


      Christians have restored to them what Adam had before the fall, an immaterial soul bucket: If this theory is correct, & the Ecclesia has already received back what Adam had, then why do we not appear to have received back our glory (as Adam obviously had) at the time of our good confession toward Messiah? Also, if I am truly overflowing with the HS (having no spirit of my own), then I feel somewhat disappointed based on the lack of power & dominion I have on earth right now – some things which Adam also had prior to falling. You must give an account to this, & concede that we “aren’t all that” yet. To ME, the resurrection of the saints will be the time to show BOTH of these attributes, since that is when they will be fully bestowed. This is the difference between mercy drops (now, before the latter rain) and showers of blessings (then, when the HS is poured out upon our dead corpses). Yeshua came to die on our behalf AND to show us the way to live our lives. Our current attempts to model Messiah (in this body of death) are often pathetic at best. Why is the HS so comparatively diminished in our lives from , say, a Paul? But, IN THAT DAY we will be dead to sin (like Adam was), FILLED with the HS (unlike today – yes, we currently have a connection w/ the HS, having been sealed as a guarantee, but this is primarily for our sanctification), & unencumbered w/ worldly responsibilities concerning families & estates. In that day it will be confirmed whether we use our Spirit-power for our own selves, or for others; we will cure the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead. I see none of these things evident in my life now. Please explain your views on these things.

      Martyrs: Come on bro, haven’t you read the Rev? It says specifically who the martyrs are! Rev.6:9, Rev.6:10. Rev.6:11, Rev.17:6 !!!!!!!!!!! You have to ABANDON that witness stuff. My 4th century view is the same as the 1st century view based on what I read – What do the sited vss say? How could…

    • patrick

      … it be any clearer for you? What will happen when you finally accept that fact??

      Golden bowl = head, silver cord = hair, grinders = teeth, mighty men = shoulders, foundations = legs, singers = voice, etc… – all refs to old age, not death.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick , in your system soul death is an anomaly. #220 you said soul death is NOT like body death. Dead souls can think, have limited emotion, take minor actions. It is a paradoxical system.

      My theory is straight forward +seems to me more logically consistent. Before Xp everyone died (none had life), because He is firstborn from the dead. AD only those who receive the gift have life. There is no life (of any sort, definition or caliper) without Xp.

      Seems to me that you and most Christians are living with an internal contradiction. I don’t understand how to define death as anything other than ontologically dead. Grammatical semantics and acceptation of vocabulary prohibit anything else. (See posts 57-60 for a refresher about this.) Fundamentally, I think perhaps the issue is that you are stuck on the immortality of the soul. Soul death, spirit death must mean something else besides what we understand as dead (incapable of response to stimuli and no internal function), because you have been taught that souls are immortal.

      Welcome to the world of Conditional Immortality, where only God is immortal (1Tim 6:16). Humans have inherited death from Adam our father. However, we can be adopted into the family of God and receive His inheritance of Life. Afterlife and Eternal life are a gift which the wicked do not receive.

    • patrick


      1Cor 10:3-4 Israel received MIRACULOUS food and drink: The word (pneumatikos) does not mean miraculous, but spiritual. You also did not address the other 2 vss (Rom.7:14, Rom.15:27) in relation to why God would give Israel “spiritual things” if they were spiritually dead? The OT is full of meditations by men filled with the Spirit, and are you saying all this was lost on everyone until Messiah came? How could Noah, Abram, Moses, Samuel, etc.. be considered righteous without a spiritual aspect to their lives? Are virtue, humility, mercy, sacrifice, LOVE spiritual traits, or just attributes all people are completely bereft of until they come to Messiah? If Adam’s ruach died (which word you always attempt to render as “breath”), then why did he continue breathing for 900+years? Are you treating the word consistently? Heb.12:22&23 – whose spirit is being made perfect here??

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, #229 yes, there is likely a future body resurrection element embedded in John 3:3. Much NT theology has an “already-not yet” tension. My point was for the contemporary spirit birth here and now upon salvation. This is the point that you had been denying. An actual birth of the spirit NOW. As I understand your position you think everybody already has a spirit, in which case nothing is actually born now. My point is that the spirit birth is ontological, in which case there had not been a pre-existing spirit. But that certainly doesn’t deny a future fulfillment also. I have no objections to your thoughts, bodily resurrection is key and fundamental to eternal life.

      #237 you said”spirit is related to our survival instinct. Spirit strives to keep our BODIES alive, reacting to perceived threats.”
      So animals have a spirit? Beyond just breath, you think animals have a metaphysical self inner-cat?
      This have ramifications for salvation of animals and their presence in heaven or hell. Please explain.

      You said in ref to #218that 1John 3:9 is about the body res when we no longer sin. I’m ok with that. Good observation.

      #239You seem to have 2 functions of spirit in your system 1) it controls breath and animate the body ( Believers, non-belv, and animals ALL have a good operable spirit) 2) it has a metaphysical spiritual dimension of communion with God (only believers have an operable system, non-belv have a living but blinded one and ?animals). Is that correct?
      For me spirit is only that metaphysical stuff. I think your mixing in functions of soul and body.

      have a great weekend filled with Yeshua.

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