I remember when I was young, I was taught that there was a place called “Abraham’s Bosom.” The way it was explained to me made perfect sense at the time. You go to heaven if you trust in Christ. You go to hell if you don’t. People go to heaven because Christ’s atonement on the cross paid for their sins. God cannot be in the presence of sin (Hab. 1:13). Therefore, those who are covered by Christ’s death can be in the presence of God. Those who are not, cannot.
So far so good? But there is a problem: what about all God’s people who came before Christ’s death? What about Abraham, Moses, David, and Isaiah? According to the theory, they were not yet covered by Christ blood. Conclusion: they, before Christ’s death, were not in the presence of God. They were somewhere else waiting for their sins to be covered.
This “somewhere else” was known as “Abraham’s Bosom.” Think “Protestant Purgatory” or something like that. Abraham’s Bosom existed as a holding tank for God’s people until Christ’s death on the cross. Once the atonement was made, Abraham’s Bosom it was vacated as all its occupants were ushered into God’s presence in heaven.
The name “Abraham’s Bosom” came from the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16. “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried” (Luke 16:22). Notice, this parable was given before Christ’s atonement. Therefore, people have said that this must be the place, between heaven and hell, that pre-Cross saints went to.
Why there is no such thing as Abraham’s Bosom
As nice and tidy as that might sound theologically and biblically, it does not really work. There is no such place as Abraham’s Bosom.
First, the idea that God cannot be in the presence of sin is untenable.
The passage in Hab. 1:13 simply means that God is too pure to approve sin. It has nothing to do with sin or evil being in God’s presence. Here are some of the reasons:
- After the fall, we find God walking in the Eden with Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:8).
- Satan himself can be in God’s presence. In Job 1:6, we see Satan presenting himself before God (see also 1 Chron 18:18-21; Rev. 12:10).
- Christians, who are still sinners (1 John 1:8), are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Obviously the Holy Spirit must be able to be in the presence of sin.
- Christ, God incarnate, was in the presence of sin the whole time he walked the earth (John 1:14). He was even carried in the womb of a sinner!
Second, the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus does not teach that “Abraham’s Bosom” is a separate heaven.
In the parable, Christ is confronting the religious leaders’ bad theology. They were lovers of money (Luke 16:14). They believed that being rich and healthy was a sign that God was on your side. If you were poor and sick then God was not with you. In the parable, the rich man, whom all the Pharisees thought was the best Jew with great rewards waiting for him in heaven, found himself in torment in Hell. The poor sick man, who was, in the mind of the Pharisees, a bad Jew, was ushered by the angels to Abraham’s “side” or “bosom.” The idea is not ontological (dealing with a physical place), but relational. To be at one’s side or bosom represented the closest place of fellowship one could have with another. The one who the Pharisees believed was not a good child of Abraham winds up at the closest place of fellowship that there is—Abraham’s bosom. Christ was being rhetorical. The rich man is unnamed and forgotten forever. Lazarus’ name means “God helps”. The rich man dies and is buried. The poor man dies and is carried by the angels. The rich man goes to hell, “far away” from Abraham (Luke 16:23). The poor man goes to Abraham’s side, in heaven.
Conclusion
Saints in the Old Testament did not need a special dispensation. God can be in the presence of sin. If he could not be in the presence of sin, we are in big trouble. Nevertheless, they were forgiven in anticipation of Christ’s atonement. When David, Abraham, Moses, and other Old Testament saints died, they immediately went into the presence of God on the bases of Christ’s shed blood, though yet future.
Romans 3:24-26
“Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”
335 replies to "The Myth of “Abraham’s Bosom”"
souls, as well as souls that haven’t formally accepted Messiah as Savior (such as many Jews who truly love God, but despise Messiah based on biases they have too often heard). These should not be conversing until the resurrection.
The souls of the lost are in the torments of Hades (torment means conscious by definition, I think) – by the way, you can’t torment a dead body so sheol is not the grave – because they are deprived of all the material things they loved.
OK, this is where it gets really dicey for me, because I actually wonder some times whether God might want some of the lost to be awake so that they might actually gain a truly repentant attitude and be saved in a resurrection scenario. I can’t justify them rising prior to the GWTJ, but God can do anything He wants – He the God of narrow escapes. This is just a nagging suspicion ,and I can’t really defend it.
Those souls that simply hate God will be awake, reserved for judgment. All souls remain unliving though.
The last enemy to be destroyed will be death – won’t happen till the GWTJ. Death is still alive and well for now (if that makes sense).
I picture Lazarus sleeping on Abraham, both of which are dead for now, or whatever disembodied souls are. See, it’s very confusing. I picture the rich man wanting Abraham to wake Lazarus up and send him on an errand. Funny how opposite conclusions can be reached!
“abode of departed souls” is a phrase that you will not find in the bible, it does however appear in Plato’s Phaedo discourse.
Patrick may very well agree with this, but the whole idea of “life” after death, another words conscious sentient awareness after death is not an OT Hebrew notion. The OT displays death as the end of the road. Sheol is a place of unconsciousness based on Ecc 9:10, Ecc 9:5, Ps 146:4, Ps 115:17, Ps 6:5, Ps 88:10-12, Isa 38:18 and similar genre of verses. Hover your mouse on those verses to read them. There are many of them. Hebrew prophets understood the dead to be weak and powerless, without thought or memory, without work or action.
Gen 25:8 Tells us the ultimate fate happened to Abraham too. He was human, a son of Adam, a man under the curse of sin awaiting a redeemer. Abraham died. There are serious theological problems for you to permit Abraham to be alive in the bosom. Was Abraham first born from the dead, instead of Jesus? Was Abraham not under the curse of sin and death?
Instead of making classes of people per your system (wicked are alive, saints are asleep, Abraham is an anomaly), I see a universal curse. The curse is death, it is caused by sin. Absolutely nobody is immune. But there is a silver lining.
Ps 16:10 notice it says not leave my ‘nephesh’ this is mind(psyche per LXX). When you read ‘soul’ you are thinking spirit, but biblically it should be rendered thoughts or mind. David’s personality will not remain stuck in the grave of unconsciousness. He expects a resurrection when Messiah(holy one) sees no corruption. For the record, David was not a martyr, he lived to a ripe old age.
So in the OT death is unconsciousness for all. This is why the story of Dives and Laz must be a parable. It is contradictory to OT death curse, thus if it causes a logical contradiction, it must be non-literal.
TBC…
However, in the NT something changes. John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47; 6:54. They all say that Christians HAVE eternal life. They all use the present active tense in the Greek. Those who believe currently posses and actively hold eternal life. New life is granted here and now. This has enormous theological consequences as described in my book, Dead Soul Syndrome, but the point for here is that we have LIFE. Life is defined as consciousness. Life is capability of reaction to stimuli. Life is communication, thinking, action. It is contradictory oxymoron to say that someone is alive and also without thought or work.
What changed between the OT and the NT? Praise God the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the pivot point from the grave. It baffles me why that is so hard for people to accept. It is all about the Resurrection of Jesus. There are no exceptions. God does not create systems with an anomaly. His systems are perfect, complete, without hiccup. They are universal for He is not a respecter of persons. They revolve around Jesus Christ.
Yes, I believe Adam had spiritual life prior to the fall. The spirit (colloquially but improperly called soul) died when he swallowed the fruit.
I think your molecule analogy has problems. P+N are large particles at the center of an atom. E are tiny particles that spin around the exterior shell. Maybe P+N are similar enough to each other, but E is totally different type of particle. E can be stripped away quite easily, but separating Ps+Ns from the core requires nuclear physics and extreme energy input. That is why they are called ‘elements’, the quantity of P+N are basically immutable. I do not think man was created in the image of matter.
Instead man was created in the image of God. God is a trinity. 3 persons of God are equal, in perfect balance. Grk Orthodox church uses an equilateral triangle to display the interrelation. The 3 are distinct separate ontological persons, but unified, indivisible and coequal.
Not atomic matter, but God is the correct model for body/soul/spirit.
The 3 are equally important. Many times you hear people putting down the body, talking smack about the body as if it is evil. But God created body and said that it was “good.” So, Yes, I believe Adam had spiritual life prior to the fall. He was a perfect representation of the Trinity. Good and perfect in all 3 aspects of his anthropology. But then, Adam and Eve screwed it up. When they sinned the spirit component immediately died. Dead means without function, no response, incapable of action or thought. It became a spiritual corpse.
Of course the body and mind continued to live at least for a while. When the body died, then the mind (soul/nephesh/psyche) vanished for the software had no dwelling place.
The new birth, a new creation, being quickened are all describing the resurrection of the spirit component. Read the body/soul/spirit link that I sent. It is a long paper, so I’d recommend printing it and read on the couch. I can only take a couple of pages on a computer…
As to non-mayrtrs not making the heaven cut, consider the words of Jesus in John 17. This is known as the high priestly prayer:
John 17:9 he prays for everyone that belongs to God. This is a believer specific prayer, but not a martyr specific prayer. ( I feel silly saying that because martyr means ‘witness’ in the 1st century, not the way you are using it as sacrifice)
John 17:11 and again in John 17:13 Jesus is going to the Father. Jesus is going to heaven.
John 17:20-21 again not just for the 12 disciples, but for ALL believers of all ages.
Here is the punch line in John 17:24. Jesus asks that ALL believers, be where He is. We are to exist with Jesus. Jesus is in heaven, so ALL believers are in heaven. But it gets better, Jesus wants all of us to “see his glory.” The word for ESV “see” or KJV “behold” means to be a spectator, look at, to view attentively, to perceive with the eyes, to enjoy the presence of one.
You cannot see his glory if you are asleep or unconscious or dead. Remember we are the bride of Christ. We are married to Jesus. Is Jesus married to a dead person? Is his bride asleep and unaware? Are only those who sacrifice their lives granted vision and consciousness? All of the fathers of Israel: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph- all died in old age in peace. They were not martyrs. Are the patriarchs still awaiting their redemption, while others who sacrificed more get an early on?
I think John 17 says that ALL Christians will be in heaven with Jesus to be at His side and recognize his glory.Brother Patrick this is good news, I am proclaiming Life for Christians. That is the good news of the gospel.
Jay,
I appreciate many of your points made in the last quadruple thread. I am not really sure I disagree with much that you are saying (but I will comment on a few things in a moment). As I have said, the topic death and the dwelling place of the dead is very confusing to me. It is the most challenging study I have ever undertaken (no pun intended). I have tried to explain that I cannot fathom death, as it relates to the soul. It is similar (for me at least) to that which Paul stated in 2Cor.12:4 regarding his seizure into Paradise. It is inexpessible. Domains such as sheol and heaven go beyond the comprehension of man. Yes, the OT view is just as you have presented with the provided passages. No dispute there, although , as I said earlier, Sheol can stir up its dead (souls), and I believe that the context of such passages is to focus on the soul’s cutoff-ness in relation to the land of the living. They simply can’t perform or learn or progress in any way. Things that the living can do are simply impossible for souls. And yet a consciousness (I know that this is where I will disturb you – with the mention of some form of consciousness after death, but what I am saying is I can’t comprehend this part) that belongs to a different plane of reality from what can be comprehend seems to exist in sheol. Maybe it could be explained as hunger pains for unrighteous souls. Some inexpressible longing that manifests itself somehow. I believe we are arguing semantics to some point and should move on. The soul, apart from the spirit is dead. Let’s agree on that. If you want to go deeper, that’s fine, but I think we’re at the end of the line Scripturally on the topic and entering into mere speculation. It is a hidden truth. Sheol is hidden from our eyes.
Psa.16:10 is strictly Messianic – you cannot try to make it apply to David based on its clear context.
I’m a little confused by your statements about Yeshua’s teaching on Lazarus & the rich man. You say it conflicts with the OT presentation about sheol, but then make reference to a paradigm that Messiah caused, which seems to make the teaching possible. It seems contradictory to some degree.
I see the resurrection of Yeshua as the only action that could make resurrection possible for man. I don’t think souls woke up when He arose. Joh.1:4 states that in Him was life and the life was the light of men. This is from a Creation time reference and so places Him, from the beginning, as the Creator that brought life. When man fell, I don’t think it meant something was taken away from God in terms of His power that He only received back after He rose. Is that what you are saying?
God certainly makes anomalies. The universe is full of them. That’s why we have the word, silly.
The molecule analogy I used only goes so far. To take it farther than I said is too far. I believe Abraham is dead, not living. I appreciate your interest in this topic. I defer to you. I’d like to read some of your stuff when I have time.
I agree that soul/body/spirit is a portrait of the Trinity, I don’t think they are co-equal though. For instance, Yeshua Himself stated that He did not know everything the Farther knows (the day or the hour). By definition, as Ambassador to this world, Yeshua had to be less glorious than the Father. John falls down in His presence in the Revelation, but he would have been consumed in the presence of the Father. That’s why Yeshua said that no one has seen the Father but the Son. Similarly, the Holy Spirit appears to be in complete subjection to the Father and Son. He doesn’t even appear to have His own personal pronoun. I believe they are in unity though, but distinct in glory. Yeshua is working for the Father until He can put all things under His Father’s feet. The Spirit abides with us (least glorious of the Trinity – although still awesome).
I believe martyrs go to the altar of souls because their conduct has verified the genuineness of their faith. The altar speaks of sacrifice – they are under it, where ashes fall. This accounts for the manner of their deaths – that plus their statement about avenging their spilt blood. You actually agree with me that they were slain, don’t you? In terms of “not making the heaven cut”, I believe all Christians (all Israel) will make the heaven cut. The distinction being made here between martyred and non-martyred souls is that one bypasses the resurrection into the Tribulation because it would be redundant to send them there, while the other still requires demonstration that walking in the Spirit is their real eternal choice. The point is ALL of Israel shall be saved. Again, I will allow God to choose who His true martys are.
In terms of the Joh.17 passages you referenced, I interpret these as referring to a future gathering of all Israel, such as is described numerous times in the NT with regards to His second coming. The testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy – Rev.19:10. The dead in AB will arise and see Him at His coming. No contradiction.
We will be joined with Yeshua after the Sabbath Rest (Millennial Kingdom), when those who escaped from the nations and enter the kingdom on their mortal feet (the nations to be ruled, as referenced in the sheep and goat judgement). This requires one last shifting of these mortals, which will take place when the Devil is released to deceive one last time. Those remaining after the battle of Gog will also take part in the Marriage of the Lamb to His bride. This may be of interest to Bill, as he had stated that he believes that the Jews will be performing Levitical priestly duties in the Millennial Kingdom, which I support. They will be performing it for mortals – especially for those nations refusing to come up to observe Succoth, which will commemorate the resurrection wilderness sojourn during the Tribulation.
Patrick said:The soul, apart from the spirit is dead. No I don’t agree with that. The word soul biblically used (Heb nephesh/Grk psyche) means mind or personality (that was your word-I like it). Animals have nephesh. Gen 1:24 (KJV living creature). It is just plain wrong to say that the mind is dead apart from spirit. What about Hitler? All unsaved people have soulish life. Isa 66:3 the evil man’s nephesh (KJV soul) delights in abominations. NT also uses psyche same way. Acts 14:2 evil minds=psyche. The same word is translated soul/life/mind/heart. This is the Greek word used in the LXX for nephesh.
The mind is alive until the body and spirit are both dead. If one or the other is alive (body and/or spirit) then the soul can live. When they are both dead, then the soul perishes. The aforementioned paper has graphic images to display that idea.
What unbelievers lack is spirit life.
Where you would be correct would be to say that the soul/mind/personality cannot live independently. It must have a body or spirit vessel.
Yes, Ps 16:10 is a messianic psalm predicting Jesus. But it is also a personal psalm of worship written by David. Ps 16:1-2 are David’s words. This is his psalm, his poem, his prayer, his worship. To strip David out of the equation, because 1000’s of years later we now realize the messianic implications, is nearsighted. There is a dual focus, a dual fulfillment, both for David locally in the 10th Century BC and for Jesus. Messianic prophecies frequently have a dual fulfillment. example Isa 7:14 Immanuel child is a short term military prophecy given to Ahaz. The historical background of these prophecies is frequently overlooked due to overshadowing of Messiah. Understandably Jesus is more important than David or Ahaz. But Jesus is not the arrogant “give me all the lime light” kind of guy. Jesus is happy to share the prophecies with the original referent. My study here: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/isaiah_7.htm
Yes, Yeshua taught on Lazarus & Dives. Yes, Messiah caused the paradigm by his resurrection that would allow Ab+Laz at least to exist and talk and think. But the timing is not yet. When Jesus walked the earth during his ministry, he had not yet been resurrected and glorified. He was a rabbi, an obedient servant, but the economy of the OT was still in effect at that point in time.
Most of the gospels are telling the story during the OT era. Temple was standing, high priests officiating, OT economy was in place. All human spirits at that point in time were dead in the grave without sentientence, ever since Adam. Because the redemption contract had not yet been ratified by God. The contract had been negotiated and approved since before the foundations of the earth, but they had not yet had title closing.
John the Baptist was an OT prophet. During his ministry Jesus was an OT prophet (THE Prophet of Deut 18:15).
After Jesus rose from the dead (Paul tells us that without resurrection everything is a waste of time and bogus hoax), Jesus ascended to the Father and they inked the deal for redemption. Jesus bought the cosmos back. He paid for it with himself. I’m not positive on the exact timing:Definitely after the resurrection, probably at the ascension, or possibly at Pentecost. Somewhere in that time period, is when I am proposing that EVERYTHING changed. It is all about Jesus. When life for his people was paid and guaranteed, He was not slack in giving it to us. At that point, I propose that Christ opened the grave, and called forth everyone who had died that had had saving faith. Only his sheep know his voice (John 10). The unsaved remain in the grave. They were not given the gift of life. But they will encounter a future resurrection for judgment and condemnation. The unsaved have no intermediate state.
So to answer your question, the confusion is on the timing. Before the Res, Gospels speak in the OT economy. After the Res Acts/Epistles/Rev are NT economy.
Patrick, I think you are correct that we getting toward the end of discussable thoughts here. But not quite there yet. I’m going through your comments and trying to be comprehensive.
You said: When man fell, I don’t think it meant something was taken away from God in terms of His power that He only received back after He rose. Is that what you are saying?
Huh? Pls restate your question. I don’t understand.
I might take this back upon further meditation, but I think God does not create anomalies. An anomaly is an abnormality, something that does not behave according to the system rules. God creates with mathematical perfection. He doesn’t round off, so there is zero margin of error. We observe anomalies in nature due to the fall. Congenital birth defects, disorders and mess-ups in planetary motion, inexplicable strangeness in planetary gravitational forces, or anything generally out of whack is because the cosmos, the entire universe is cursed and groaning under the burden of human sin.
If you discover an anomaly in my theology, than I take that as a logical fallacy. Logic is like math. It is perfect and complete. An anomaly means that my system is wrong, out of kilter, requires change improvement. I propose zero tolerance for anomalies within theology of life and death. The curse of death came in Gen 3. It was upon all naturally born humans from Adam (Jesus exempt due to virgin birth).
No anomalies. Everybody had a dead spirit. Nobody had an afterlife. The lot of man was the grave. His wages were death. Death means no consciousness. It was universal. Jesus was divine, so he alone was exempt from the curse. And he beat death and conquered the grave. He shares his victory with his wive, his younger brothers, his co-heirs. (I’m being poetically parallel that means us, I do not intend that he had 3 or more classes of people). I reject anomalies in theology. It means that you are harboring a mistake.
I don’t have a problem with Millennial temple with commemorative sacrifices either. I’m probably historic pre-mil in my eschatology.
I won’t quibble over your glory scale of the Trinity. However, the reason Yeshua didn’t know certain stuff, is because at that point he had not yet been glorified. He came as a servant. A slave to the Father. Slaves don’t have all the answers, they just simply obey. After the resurrection(or possibly at the ascension) Yeshua was given ALL authority. He was coronated king of kings, lord of lords. Today, Jesus certainly knows the timing of his Parousia. See my study here: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/obedient_servant.htm
Thief on the cross is an example of a non-martyr Christian in heaven during the intermediate period. I know that we will have a problem here, but I see paradise=3rd heaven. Jesus is in 3rd heaven during the intermediate period. Thus the thief is in heaven with Jesus during the intermediate period.
I do take issue with the traditional punctuation of ‘today’ in that verse. No commas exist in the greek mss. I think it should properly read “Verily I say to you today, (this day that I hang on a cross, this day that I look like a criminal, this day that I am paying for humanity). You shall be with me in Paradise.” I punctuate it this way because Jesus did not go to paradise that same day himself either.
In John 20:17, he tells Mary that he had not yet been to heaven. Jesus was in the grave. Jesus was dead for those 3 days. Jesus had no consciousness himself for those 3 days. Jesus suffered the curse of death for us. The curse is lack of sentience, lack of thought, lack of soul(psyche/mind). If Jesus was not truly dead, then my sins are not truly paid for. It must the just for the unjust. There must be an even trade fair swap. If Jesus never spiritually died then we don’t get spiritual life.
Jay,
Not sure if my comments are being posted – the app does not show me my latest posts. I will check back later.
We have talked about literal vrs figurative. Consider the conflict between Ecc 9:5; Ecc 9:10; Ps 115:17 and the parables wherein dead people are talking.
Luke 16 Dives knows that Laz is on the other side, he remembers that he has brothers back on earth, he has wisdom that he is in a bad place. Abraham is aware of the great chasm, he remembers about Law of Moses back on earth, he has wisdom that people won’t listen to a dead man. Both of these guys know all sorts of stuff. They are not silent, lots of talking. This is a direct contradiction to above verses.
In Isa 14 and Eze 32 dead people are talking, again not silent. They know that the king who just joined them is a great warrior from earth. Ps 49:17 + 1Tim 6:7 Proclaim that you can take no material possessions with you to sheol (the grave), yet these kings have thrones (Isa 14:9) and swords (Eze 32:27). The dead kings know that they had been slain. They recognize the king of Babylon/Pharaoh when he arrives. In these passages dead people know stuff, they have wisdom, they own possessions, and even rise from a seated position (action, work is being performed).
To avoid a contradiction and logical fallacy (unless your world view allows for anomalies without error) at least one of these genre of passages must be non-literal. Either the Poets and Prophets of Ecc/Ps/Job/Isa etc are speaking literally and dead people are truly dead without thought or consciousness AND the stories are parables.
Or it is the other way around. The stories are literal and the prophets are figurative. CMP has suggested in an earlier post that the OT contains “deficient eschatology” (see post#50 and my reply). Perhaps you could solve the contradiction by saying that these OT prophets used hyperbole. Ecc 9:6 would mean that they are not real smart. Ecc 9:10 means that they are dull. Isa 43:17 (KJV extinct) would mean not faring well, but still in existence.
Continue next…
My point is that they logically cannot both be literal. Something has to give. I have chosen the first option. I take the prophets at face value. Dead means dead. Extinguished means gone. No thoughts means no sentience or consciousness. This forces me to logically accept the stories as parables. Luke 16 is about money and righteousness. Isa 14/Eze 32 are about prideful kings:bigger they are the harder they fall.
Many people choose the second option. The stories are literally true, and the rest of the OT must be partially allegorized, somewhat non-literally accepted, or not consistently applied. I hear lip service that Abraham was dead in the bosom, but you think he was talking. I hear you say that the unsaved are spiritually dead, but then you turn right around and say that they are being tormented. You can’t have both.
My selection of which is literal and which is figurative boils down to a fundamental theological rule. Jesus is prime. Jesus invented life and owns the patent. Human were created with physical life and spiritual life. At the fall, spiritual life perished and returned to pixie dust (so to speak). Physical life started its decay and ends in death and ultimately also returns to dust. We are blest with physical life for a short time period. It is a gift. Nobody had afterlife until after Jesus paved the way. Today, nobody has afterlife without acceptance of Jesus.
The traditional selection of which is literal and figurative is guided by a cultural assumption in the immortality of humans.
Point being everybody has some literal and some figurative interpretations, your fundamental platform will guide how you select.
It appears to me that your cosmology is quite complex and I would say highly mythic. From what I understand you envision at least 3 locals of the spirit world: heaven-abode of god and conscious martyrs; AB-abode of sleeping non-slain Christians(not really dead because they occasionally wake up for some reason, then fall back to sleep); and Hades-abode of conscious wicked currently being tormented. By complex I mean that you have several compartments for afterlife residency, You should consider invoking Occam’s razor.
Mythic means the stuff of legend. It really can’t be documented, but cannot be disproved either. It is traditional, but unsubstantiated.
My cosmology is much simpler and does not require as much substantiation, because I reject 2 of those 3 as fictitious locales. I accept only Heaven. Heaven is real. It is the abode of God and now after Resurrection it is the abode of all dead saints (OT and NT). You cannot travel there in a space ship. It is in another dimension, a spiritual dimension. That is it; my cosmology is raw, clean, simple, uncomplicated. The cosmos is divided in half heaven/earth; up/down. Nothing else. AB and Hades are make believe from parables. Similarly in the rich fool with a big barn whose life was demanded that night (Lk 12:16-20), the barn is not a real place. You can’t go to the barn, it is make believe setting for a moral story.
If everybody in AB is unconscious, why even propose a “place” for dead spirits to go to? Is it a big mausoleum? If they are truly dead, wouldn’t it be cleaner to say that they have decomposed and returned to dust, awaiting the resurrection? Return to dust was the promise of Gen 3:19.
The conscious sinners in Hades being tormented during the intermediate period is particularly troublesome.
First, consciousness is a sign of life. These people do not get life. The wages of sin is death. This has been a serious bone of contention for me all through these posts. I consider Jesus as the exclusive source of Life. I consider it heretical (contrary to the gospel) to claim that man has autonomous Life apart from God. No one ever quite has the audacity to directly claim that, however their doctrines belie their claims.
Second, why are the sinners being tormented and punished before the Judgment? Numbers 35:12 + Deut 17:2-6 say that a man accused of murder shall flee to the city of refuge until he has stood before the judges and had a fair trial and is legally convicted based on the testimony of 2-3 witnesses. It is against the Law to kill him until due process of trial has been performed. This is in accord with our sense of fairness. Innocent till proven guilty is a biblical percept. This was the God given law of Israel, and we know that the Law is holy and just.
The Judgment has not happened yet. Acts 17:31 Be it known that Jesus has been appointed!
Rom 2:5 this day of wrath will be revealed at the Parousia (Coming) of Christ.
So if the Judgment has not happened yet, and if the Law prohibits execution of the offender until after the Judgment, then an intermediate contemporary Hades as a place of conscious torment for sinners is unconstitutional, unbiblical and impossible.
If I have misunderstood something, pls explain.
Jay,
I do not see my comments being posted. When I try to resubmit them the App responds that I have already posted them. Not sure what to do here. I would like to address your comments, but am not able.
Is there a web manager that can address the issue?
Jay,
Yeshua said, ” The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” Oddly enough, this is from Luk.16 and just prior to the story of Lazarus and the rich man. It could be that a paradigm happened, but the opening of the door would have occurred with John’s preaching of the kingdom – it is at hand! So if you take the paradigm approach, which I have considered and am not against, then the story stands as truth when Yeshua spoke it.
Where does the Scripture identify consciousness as life? It may sound a silly question, but in terms of disembodied souls, you may want to think on that. I made a prior post that I do not see that gives the Scriptural definition of life.
Jay,
You said, “Christ opened the grave, and called forth everyone who had died that had had saving faith. ”
If this is true, then please comment on Acts 2, as it pertains to king David. Particularly Acts 2:34. This was post-crucifixion, post-ascension, day of Penetcost. David has not ascended. Period.
Jay,
You are correct about anomalies. It was a poor choice of words on my part. I agree with you about anomalies not being a part of the Scriptures. Abraham seems to be an exception (not an anomaly) to the rule regarding the dead souls in AB because it is his chamber. He would be the caretaker. His portrayed righteousness, aside from believing God, seems to focus all around his hospitalities and kind treatment of neighbors in a gospel fashion (love). When we read about Sarah’s death we get one verse. When we read about the acquiring of the tomb from Mamre, we get a whole chapter. Note the presence of the field and trees were included with the cave. I believe there is more being described here than just the family burial plot. I believe there is also a message about AB going on here.
Based on what you said about the belief that the righteous saints graves being opened, doesn’t king David qualify as an anomaly?
Also, Mat.27 states that graves were opened and many of the dead went into Jerusalem. Did Job, Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc……. enter Jerusalem? I don’t remember reading about this anywhere, like in Josephus, for instance. Should have caused quite a stir, don’t you think? I believe those resurrected were the recently deceased – like Lazarus (the brother of Martha and Mary), whom Yeshua raised from the dead. According to Acts 2, the fact that Yeshua ascended alone proves that God has made Him our Messiah.
Also, do you confirm that Isa.53 is poetry?
Jay,
The unrighteous dead speak from sheol when it is stirred up. I do not claim to understand precisely what that means, but, poetry or not, God speaks only truth. Messiah spoke only truth in Luk.16. Isa.53, if you say it is poetry, is actually quite factual in every respect – and important to be understood literally. So who is the all-knowing one that determines what to accept and what to reject? I accept it all, but there will be difficulties that are encountered because of unawareness about spiritual realms on my part. If sheol can stir up its dead unrighteous souls so that they can speak in an incomprehensible tongue that is not according to this world, then so be it. I don’t see the problem. It matches Luk.16 to a tee.
Jay,
This business you raise about thrones and swords in sheol is another matter altogether. I believe the concept about the unrighteous dead’s place in sheol is that every man, in this present world (the land of the living), digs a mini-pit for himself within the Pit according to his works. This is emphasized repeated in the OT. We are also told that the nations are gathered under their respective king in sheol. I don’t claim to understand exactly what that means (I have had several kings rule over me). It may be an angelic reference, as angels (malukim) are mentioned several times as being over nations – Mishael, the prince of Persia, etc… In terms of thrones in sheol, I do not believe a personal chair left the surface of the earth, but a place of distinction is given to kings. The Lord causes the basest of men to rule over the affairs of men. In terms of those with swords resting under their heads, I believe these are a special class of individuals – the nephilim, and/or perhaps their sires. These are those which caused great terror in the land of the living. These lived by the sword evidently (such as this ancient, pre-Deluge Assyria mentioned in the same passage). These perished in the Deluge. These, along with the antediluvian people were literally wiped from the face of the earth – with all their possessions – in God’s wrath. No traces left. Swallowed like Korah and his family/possessions. This is what the whole chapter is saying. Everything, across the board, has been interpreted literally with no anomalies.
Jay,
Nothing has to give, but the understanding that when you die, your spirit returns to God, your body corrupts in the grave, and you soul will rest in the presence of the Lord in Abraham’s Bosom. You will await the upward call of the Lord and be placed in the Great Tribulation with God and all the holy host of heaven on your side.
This consciousness thing seems to be a sticking point with you. You know, in Noah’s days, God said he would destroy the earth, and everything that has breath in it. Later He said he would spare Noah and his family and two of every living creature. Then later He said He would spare seven each of clean animals. This does not mean God was wrong at any point, it means He is telling us precisely what happened. Similarly, if the righteous OT writers say that there is no consciousness in sheol, they were only writing what the Spirit revealed to them. But that does not necessarily mean that Abraham would have to also be unconscious, or those souls disturbed by witchcraft, or those souls in the place of torment, or angels (who do not die, but are evidently in the abode of the dead) who are bound in chains (Why bind a sleeping guy?) – you see what I mean? Our Sovereign God speaks in His own way.
Give it to me literal. You know, one thing I learned from the garden of Eden episode is that the serpent likes to challenge what God has said. Give it to me literal and the truth will make the way. So narrow an explanation that one path remains.
Jay,
The Scriptures are not legend. That is where I read and get my substantiation about these things. I suppose I could say similar things about some of your beliefs being post-Modern. The modern church began the dissection of God’s word through the blossoming of the scientific method as viewed from a Darwinian vantage. There was no need (or sanity) in adding ages to the word of God, unless evolution, which rejects the Scriptures, is desired to be inserted. But many dull Christians compromised their beliefs because they did not want to appear silly by holding on to outdated notions in a modern world. Science has continued to pollute our world with its infantile notions for the last 200 years, and in its wake the post-Modern church has emerged, scissors in hand. Now nothing can be known for sure. If you make sheol a fictitious place, you are rejecting an important portion of God’s word. To claim that it is make-believe from parables is incorrect. Much has been said about sheol/hades and it is not possible to diminish its condition to the grave. I grant you that the OT treatment of sheol/grave is messed up in most versions of the Scriptures due to bias (righteous go to graves while the unrighteous go to sheol), but we still have the word of God if we don’t mind digging. Now I know you are a digger because you don’t just say the things you do without having dug deep. So few seem to do so.
I believe you have magnified the unconsciousness soul beyond reason. You, or I, cannot possibly hope to understand spiritual realms and be able to give any extensive explanations for them. Maybe you should try viewing all the writings of Solomon as poetry and see what that leaves you. Man was created body/spirit/soul. The body dies when the spirit returns to heaven. The soul departs at the same time and ceases further development. The flesh corrupts. Disembodied souls do not have consciousness like unto our own because they are not hooked up to a function brain with sensory receptors. Disembodied soul are dead (they have no independent locomotive ability, nor breath, nor blood), and are in need of a spiritual world, which sheol and heaven are.
Jay,
You said, “The conscious sinners in Hades being tormented during the intermediate period is particularly troublesome.” Aside from what I have already said about your sticking point on consciousness (that’s where you always jump off), this concept of pre-judgment torment bothered me for a long time as well. I basically wondered what’s the rush? Why not wait and turn them into the LoF after judgment? This is where that nagging feeling I mentioned in a prior post came in. It is none of our business, and certainly not anything to be preached, but my suspicion is that God wants those sinners to know what is coming. God could be priming the pump to save more souls, but it may require a tremendously fiery ordeal for them to be saved. He would have to literally wear them out in the resurrection in order to validate them, possible as mortals entering the Millennial Kingdom. No one should be preaching such a means of salvation, for it is not Scriptural, but if God’s love is as intense as stated, and some children cannot learn without the rod of correction, then He may have another way lined up for such. You would tell your kids not to lie, but you already know they will. But we need to listen to Yeshua. I don’t really want to say any more than that about that topic except God, in His infinite love toward the unjust, might justly punish them in order to save them. In a sense, we too get punished every day. I chose God, but still feel the trials of the world.
Another possible explanation to the dilemma is that they did it to themselves. By pursuing evil they left their soul in a damaged/underdeveloped state that is prone to torment.
Execution of the soul happens in the LoF, not sheol.
Good catch about David. I drew from John 5:25. It says that only those hearing the call live. Many dead are unsaved and deaf to call of shepherd. Jesus said time for this resurrection is now (circa 30ad). When Jesus rose, He raised the spirits of the saints.
Notice John 5:28-29, Jesus said soon (2000yrs and counting) ALL the dead rise from the mnēmeion. Thats simple Gk word for grave/tomb/sepulcher. It is literal, so this is now speaking of resurrection at the Parousia.
Notice contrast between 5:25 and 5:28-29. V25 only some hear, v28 all hear. V25 they given life; v29 they given life or krisis (damnation) based on acts.
So there is a resurrection that follows Jesus’ resurrection. I think this is supported by Eph 4:8. When Jesus ascended, he took with him the captives of the grave (sheol). They were prisoners in greatest jailhouse of all time. He didn’t take everybody, only whom he is giving a gift. What is the gift of God? Eternal life. Of course at this point, it is only a spiritual gift of life, there is a pause between the spiritual res and the bodily physical res.
Acts 2:29 I think is referring to the body of David. Notice the word mnēma (grave), this is always used of a literal physical sepulcher. The discussion on Pentecost day that Peter is preaching about is the literal bodily physical resurrection of Jesus that had happened less than 2 months ago. Peter said that David has not bodily risen, since the tomb was as yet undisturbed. They are not talking about the intermediate period.
Acts 2:34-35 Again I think this is in reference to a body resurrection, not a spirit resurrection. A lot of scoffers in Jerusalem were debunking the foolish idea that Jesus’ tomb literally opened and he walked out. Peter says that David did not bodily go up to heaven and sit at the right hand of God. But Jesus actually, literally with a body did just that. The bodily resurrection of Jesus is the topic of this passage.
I think that life involves consciousness is self evident, but excellent question for the exercise of concordance flipping. In Hebrew chai and nephesh are the two words translated as life. They are paralleled in synonymy in Job 33:18; Job 33:20; Ps 88:3; Ps 143:3. In Gen 1:20; Gen 2:7; Jer 38:2 they appear side by side in a double whammy of living lifeforms. Sort of redundant but definitely expresses that life is alive. Do a concordance search, these words are used together in over 60 verses.
Dictionary definition of consciousness is perceiving, knowledge or awareness: capable of or marked by thought: having mental faculties. My statement that consciousness is indicative of life is interpretive. I don’t think Bible ever says that straight up as that word is not used, but it seems intuitive that they go together like peas in a pod. Only living things are conscious.
Bible says that life is animated. It moves+runs, its active. When applied metaphorically to inanimate objects, we understand living water to be not stagnant. Movement and quickening is only possible by conscious beings.
Ps 119 uses a verbal form ‘chaiyah’ 11x over. It is translated as quickened, having action. Again idea of movement.
Life +seeing are associated in 10 vrs, eg Job 7:7. Sight is organic process that requires brain power to process.
Brain power is consciousness. Its movement +action on a mental level(not muscular). Again idea is relationship between life and motion/activity.
Isa 26:19 gives the idea that living is related to being awake. Dan 12:2 shows that awake is the opposite of being asleep. Sleep, as you have pointed out, is a euphemism for being dead, because of the sedentary, non-active, non-responsiveness of sleep. Being conscious and being awake are reasonable synonyms in English.
Eze 18:24 ff displays the obvious that life is the opposite from death. So whatever we determine “life” means, then “death” must be antithetical. Common sense, huh?
Luke 16:16 is about persecution for the name of Jesus. Its freqntly misunderstood due to poor translation of KJV. The Grk word biazotai is better translated in the parallel text (exact same word) of Mat 11:12.
It is ridicules to think that people can forcefully barge their way into the kingdom. You only get into the kingdom if the Father draws you, never based on your aggressive zealous work.
Instead of storming the kingdom and capturing it by righteous zeal, it means that they are storming AGAINST the kingdom. The kingdom suffers violence is much better translation. Another words, the Jewish nation (and whole world) hate Christ. They persecute believers, they rally to fight against the kingdom. These are strong verses against a pre-trib rapture, that we will be whisked off the earth never to face persecution, But I don’t think it has much anything to do with our talk.
The shift in universal eschatology, the watershed between grave and heaven occurred at the resurrection of Jesus Christ. John was a precursor, heralding that event by about 3 years. Why would John’s preaching open the grave? Only a risen Christ has that power.
I fully agree that the “story stands as truth when Yeshua spoke it.” The question is what truth is He driving at? Is he revealing to the Pharisees, his arch enemies, about heaven and hell? Jesus advised against such in Mat 7:6.
Or is he telling the Pharisees “who loved money” (Lk 16:14- the context of the parable) that riches do not equate to righteousness?
I too have had problems with posting. Once I totally lost a long winded, detailed study. Now I write it in a word processor, save it to my pc, then copy paste. Thank you very much for your interaction on this topic. Most of what we’ve said is in my book, its not like I made all this up last night. I’ve been studying it for 10yrs now. Always learning more too. You’re very knowledgable and scripture savy. Thanks.
Ok, When I said “Christ opened the grave at his resurrection” I meant it metaphorically. Of course today the bodily resurrection has not yet happened (Maranatha Lord). Literal cemeteries are still intact and full of cadavers. I meant it in the poetic vein of sheol and hades as figurative expressions for the grave. I speak in terms of my own theology. When encountering folks of a variant theology, our own words can be misread, sorry for the confusion. My bad.
“spirit returns to God” comes from Ecc 12:7. I think it is a biased backloaded translation. It should say “the breath returns to God who gave it.” It is itself a quote from Gen 2 “man formed from dust” and filled with the “breath of God.” It would be better to use the simple meaning of rauch as breath/wind. To say that the spirit as in the immaterial ontological being of the 4th dimension, returns to God would be saying more than you intend. In context Ecc 12 is about ALL people good bad and ugly. Do you propose that the spirit of the wicked are in heaven? When I say breath returns to God, I do not mean to be hyper literal that exhaled air goes to heaven. Life is a gift from God to all creatures, even animals. When we breath our last the life vanishes.
What is the message of AB at Mamre?
Mat 27:52-53 is a cool verse. Of course, I think it occurred AFTER the resurrection of Jesus, because I am hung up on Him being the firstfruit. V53 specifically says “after.” I agree probably recently deceased. Saints that the living would recognize. Definitely quite a stir! If Isaiah walked down the street nobody would know who he was. But if Uncle Joseph that we buried last year suddenly walked into the temple grounds, people would freakout. But just like news media today, it makes a big stir, and then people forget by next week. This would be in agreement with Abraham’s lesson that even if they return from the dead nobody will listen. I said temple grounds because the text says “holy city” I don’t think they made a beeline to the marketplace or the Roman garrison. They went straight to the temple to worship. Some people think that these saints were raptured and taken to heaven physically after they were resurrected, or some say ascended with Jesus 40days later. I don’t think so. I think they died again shortly afterward (like next day or 2). For a final and glorified resurrection they will have to wait with the rest of us per Heb 11:40. We are all perfected (completed, glorified, theosified) together at the same time. Like Lazarus, they would have received normal unglorifed nonperfect bodies, subject to re-death. Not actually Lazarus though, he lived quite a while.
Yes Isa53 is poetry. Poetry does not mean that it is fake or not true or to be discounted. About 50% of the OT is poetry. It means that it may use more figurative language and not be wooden literal. ESV +NIV and other newer translations designate poetic sections in stanzas with lines indented. There is usually a big white margin on the printed page. This is a modern conveyance. The mss do not have indentations or scansion of Hebrew lines. Scholars may differ on stanza lines, but the general idea is valid. Hebrew poetry (Job, Ps, most of Isa) is recognized from regular prose (like most of Joshua or Chronicles) by parallel repetition in balanced lines. These stanzas would be easier to memorize in an oral society then flat out prose chapters.
For figurative language, see v6+7 we are not really sheep we are like sheep. Messiah is not factually a lamb, he is like a lamb. This is analogy, not literal. In both cases the word “like” or “as” in not in the Hebrew text, translators provided it to make comprehension for English readers. This is obvious enough that people don’t get hung up on Jesus factually being a farm animal, buut they do get hung up on people talking while dead.
Look at all the repetition in Isa 53 (also in Eze 32+Isa 14) almost every verse is a balanced couplet. Modern Americans hate poetry, so this doesn’t usually go over well, but as a society we need more training and appreciation in the fine arts. Our God is a master bard.
Jay,
I agree with your interpretation of Joh.5, that this is speaking about two distinct resurrections – I agree that there was a resurrection in 30(ish)AD, and that they were only recently deceased people (still having intact eardrums), like Lazarus (Mary & Martha’s bro.), who subsequently died again. So, based on your interpretation that ALL the righteous saints ascended somewhere around that time, you believe David did not rise from the dead bodily, but his soul (although I think you said spirit) only ascended along with all the other OT saints? OK, then what is the purpose of the dry bones resurrection pertaining to the WHOLE house of Israel (Eze.37:11), and why is their hope cut off? Are you saying that souls that went to heaven have to return to suffer the Tribulation on earth? Yeshua said that once He gathered us we would be with Him forevermore – right? Please comment.
Jay,
I think a lot has been made of Eph.4:8 concerning this fantasy ascension of souls into heaven. Let’s be reasonable and first admit that to base such a critical theology on such a vague verse is highly suspect. I say “vague” in the context that you are trying to make it say something that simply isn’t there, thus making the verse obscure. It shows that there is scanty evidence, otherwise you would have something more explicit. Secondly, a good hermeneutic to remember here in rendering this verse might be to take the verse and put it in the context of the chapter. “…and GAVE gifts to men” (the latter part of Eph.4:8) certainly is addressed in the same chapter – don’t you agree? “He GAVE some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers … for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” (Eph.4:11-12). So, if the gifts are mentioned, how about this “He led captivity captive” business? I think so! Read the rest of the chapter (Eph.4:12-32). When He ascended He led sin captive BY SENDING THE HOLY SPIRIT TO MAN. Remember, Yeshua told His disciples that it was good that He should depart so that the Comforter might come (Joh.16:7)? Yep, and when the Spirit came it made it possible to set the captives (the LIVING Church) free from the bondages of sin (the captivity). When He ascended, He led sin captive, and gave gifts to men. The whole of the remainder of the chapter speaks of “how it was before His ascension”, and “how it now is after His ascension”. Again, compare the captivity referenced in Eph.4:8 with that of Luk.4:18, when Yeshua read from Isaiah’s scroll in the synagogue. And who were the captives to whom liberty was proclaimed? To the LIVING, not the dead (Luk.4:20-21)…
Is Eph.4:8 really the best you can do to prove the ascension of souls up into heaven? Even the verse itself says “When HE ascended”, not “When THEY ascended”. A matter is established by two or more witnesses, so what other passage can you bring to bear in support of the ascending souls interpretation?
Jay,
I appreciate your insights. I have gleaned some things from you and am thinking over old things in light of these. Very interesting. I still haven’t budged on doctrine though, but am starting to see how you see it too.
Just because two words are used back-to-back does not make them synonomous. “red ball”, “living creature”, chai nephesh”. I don’t get it. The fact that living is being applied to nephesh in the concordance definition could be somewhat misleading. The two words, “chai” and “nephesh”, used in conjunction frequently could be mistaken to mean souls are, by definition, living; but in actuality the soul is living because it has received God’s breath. It is the Spirit that makes alive (Joh.6:63). You had mentioned the common confusion between nephesh and ruahk that too often takes place – is this to what you were making reference?
If I were you, I would ask myself about the implications of the use of “consciousness” in light of absence of much Scriptural support – I mean, what does it do to your doctrine if you subtract it out of it? Does it make it ineffective, or weaken it significantly? If so, then I would start looking for motives behind relying on the conscious aspect of life.
The animated/vigorous part of chai (life) comes from the ruahk (spirit), not the nephesh (soul). Note that it was the Spirit of God (not His Nephesh) that was hovering (moving vigorously/ hovering/energizing) the face of the waters in Gen.1. The Hebrew definition for spirit includes this aspect of animation or locomotion.
Jay,
I understand living waters to literally mean living waters.
I interpret Job 7:7, speaking of sight and life, as meaning when he dies his soul will go unconscious. Sleeping people can’t see. A sleeping soul is a dead soul (that’s the part that confuses me – I can’t comprehend, but that is what the Scriptures say repeatedly).
Isa.26:19 is a big resurrection passage. The souls of the righteous dead (non-martyred) will be raised from sleep (death) out of AB. Note the terrestrial aspect of the resurrection in the passage – to the feet on the earth, as I have been saying. Souls need to stay on earth, not yo-yoing up and down.
Dan.12 is also a resurrection passage. Israel (including the Church’s non-martyrs) evangelizing the world in the last days. These verses tend to support soul sleep, just as defined throughout the OT and NT. Apart from the ruahk, the nephesh is dead (asleep – you know, Joh.11:11-14, “Lazrus sleeps – let’s go wake him up/Lazarus is dead” – see also Acts 7:60, Acts 13:36, 1Cor.7:39, 1Cor.11:30, 1Cor.15:6, 1Cor.15:18, 1Cor.15:20, 1Cor.15:51, 1The.4:13, 1The.4:14, 1The.4:15, 2Pet.3:4) because the ruahk is the soul’s life – the presence of the spirit makes the nephesh chai. The life is in the blood. The blood needs breath (ruahk). Try stop breathing and see what happens. It is not your personality that throws the fit – it’s your spirit! If there is such a thing as a living creature, and there is certainly also such a thing as a dead (mooth) creature (nephesh)…
I can go so far with the life/consciousness thing, and you make a good point about sleep/death and conscious/alive, but the parameters for life, according to the Scriptures, are having a body that possesses independent locomotion that is brought on by the breath of life (spirit) flowing through a network of contained blood. This affords us having a nephesh begin to develop from the womb up until the spirit departs, where further development is restricted until the Spirit re-enters our regenerated bodies and further development commences again. We keep our nephesh because it has all our discernments about good and evil.
Breath, spirit – it’s all the same – ruahk! The spirit has no good/evil nature. It does have an angry aspect to it, but that is not a sin (Be angry and do not sin). The spirit of the wicked returns to God just as Ecc. states. In the future, at the GWT Judgment, those spirits will be given back to their respective souls so that they can be judged while alive (see Rev.20:5) – the dead will live again in order to be judged. There is nothing wrong with their spirits – they remain imperishable and strong. But the nephesh dominated the spirit by insisting that the flesh should remain weak through unrepentant sins and thus “wasting their lives”.
Before I answer anything about AB and Mamre (actually it’s not Mamre, but Ephron – sorry), I will first ask you a question: How old is the earth?
Jay,
Isa.53 is poetry: That why it says “all we LIKE sheep”. See, I shouldn’t try to take that literally because the Scriptures have already made the distinction that it is not literal. Actually, when you think about it, you are making a very good case for my “literal insistence, unless otherwise specified” approach. Think about it. If Isaiah is hear waxing poetically, and we have to watch out for figurative zingers popping out without warning, as you say, then why does he say LIKE sheep, instead of saying ARE sheep? You see, at the one and only point where we know that, historically, this passage departs from the literal, the figurative exception authorization flag is waved!
Score one figurative point for Patrick with high fives all around! The crowd literally goes wild!
I’m not dogmatic about how old the earth is. I wasn’t there and can’t say that I know. I’m ok with Gen 1 being non-literal and I’m ok with it being a normal 7 day week. Don’t know. Perhaps each “day” was an age. Or perhaps there is a gap of millions of yrs between each literal 24hr day. Or perhaps (my favorite-if you’re making me pick) perhaps there is a gap after 1:1 +before 1:2. Or perhaps the whole deal was straight up 7normal days.
I like the gap because it appears to treat the text seriously (how can there be millions of yrs between plants created on the 3rd day yet sun not till the 4th?), but it also reconciles geological and natural evidence. Grand canyon, light years of star rays, fossils. I don’t buy the flood made the GC in 40 days, I don’t think God implanted fossils as a red herring to fool us. The rocky earth is probably very old, but not the current system of created life. I do generally think that Adam (literal first man) was created about 5-10k yrs ago. I reject Ussher’s chronology, I think there are gaps in the genealogy, they didn’t write down every single guy, just the highlights.
Patrick said that wicked’s spirit remains imperishable (#142). What about returning to dust? Was that just figurative?Did God only intend the body but not the WHOLE man to return to dust? (Job 10:9; Job 17:16; Job 34:15; Ecc 3:20). The curse of sin was spirit death as well as body death. My understanding is holistic.
Ecc 3:20 hey I just found a new favorite verse. I was looking about return to dust and I discovered that in the OT ALL men go to ONE place. According to v19, animals go there too.
Subdividing the fate of the dead at the time of Solomon into Hades and AB is inaccurate, they are together in ONE PLACE (the grave). Either this verse is mistaken or Luke 16 is a parable.
Pls post back at me, right quick. I was reprimanded for multiple posts. I’m supposed to only do one at a time.
I respect your interpretation of Eph 4:8. Sounds like you are saying that the “gifts given to men” were the gifts of the spirit given to the church. Correct? For my view, in addition to Eph 4 how about Luke 9:31, but read it in Greek. It says that they were talking about His “exodus” that He was about to perform. Most Eng translations read this as death, but when any Israelite hears the word “exodus” (which literally means departure) they cannot help but think of millions of people in a place of bondage breaking out and departing to a place of liberty. I propose that this exodus is the ascension from the grave after the res. of Jesus.
My theory is that at this time soul (mind) and spirit(immaterial aspect) both ascended with Jesus. This is the calling of John 5 for which for you agreed mentions 3 events (1 at v 25 and 2 at v29). But you are seeing v25 as being the temporary resurrection of recently dead folks per Mat 27. Correct? The res of v25 is followed up in John 5:26. Does Jesus give a temporary bodily reanimation to die again only with a few select recently dead people? Also note John 5:24 the verse just before, they HAVE eternal life, they pass from death to life. But are you saying that the life being specified here was only temporary and these people died again? It bothers me that it would only be a select few, it bothers me that they would have died again. I see John 5:25 as more universal and eternal.
For ascension from the grave, how about Ps 30:3 and Ps 40:2. Mark 4:32 tells a parable about the church. It says the church ascends in greek, although this is a parable, it may be a subtle poetic hint. 100s of times Scripture speaks of people ascending to Jerusalem. This is geographically accurate, Jeru is up on top of the mountains. You must walk up hill to get there. Jeru is also a metaphor for heaven in Heb 12:22, we have come there. The very next verse Heb 12:23 appears to vouch for spirits in heaven.
Jay,
Regardless of the way “press” (biazotai) is used in Luk.16:16, I do not believe it changes the context of “The law and the prophets were until John (the Baptist)”. The verse still denotes a dramatic demarcation from the OT economy (or interpretation). John’s message of repentance was the same as the OT message of the prophets, but he, unlike the former prophets (who were searching for when and what manner of time Messiah would come – 1Pet.5?), was saying the kingdom of heaven had arrived with the Messiah and His ministry. The violence done against Him and John by the religious faction during the process does not change the fact that the Paradigm had already come according to the Word. Had they not persecuted them this would not be evident, but these two were preaching a radically different interpretation (obviously) of God’s commandments than what the status quo preached. The fleshy law was revealed under the light of true spirituality. The Pharisees, not recognizing their Savior, nor desiring to lose their own authority, therefore reacted with violence toward Messiah. I’ll grant you that Yeshua’s death and subsequent resurrection had its own dramatic impact on the spiritual world, but to say John and Yeshua were under the OT economy is not correct other than to say Yeshua came to fulfill the law – but the law He fulfilled was to love the Lord with all His heart, soul, strength, and His neighbor as Himself, which, of course, was only the revelation of the parameters Old Covenant in the light of Messiah, which makes the Old Covenant New.
I was reprimanded for multiple posts as well. Unfortunately, I am still several posts behind your latest 2 posts when I was (rightly) asked not to multi-post. I suppose we have been rather hoggish with our prior content. I think it denotes a certain zeal for the word of God on our part though. Michael was very polite in his request.
The story of Laz & the rich man stands as truth in every respect. I believe Yeshua revealed truth to the Pharisees so they should be held under condemnation (I wouldn’t say they were arch enemies – we wrestle not against …). You should check the Harmony of the Gospels for the order of events around this story. Yeshua, almost certainly, was speaking the story while His friend Lazarus (Mary & Martha’s bro) was dead. When Yeshua then departed for Bethany, he went to raise Lazarus from the dead. The Pharisees, after just having heard Yeshua’s story, would have put the 2 (story & resurrection) together & actually realized that He had predicted to them what He was about to do in terms of Laz. He was actually telling them (hardening hearts?) that they would not believe even if Laz was raised from the dead. The Pharisees, we are told, were lovers of money. The rich man’s own lifestyle & personal testimony (he marginalized Moses and the prophets), was pointed right at the Pharisees. The Pharisees certainly would have identified with the rich man – a righteous soul, in their eyes, blessed by God with an abundance; conversely, they would have identified Laz as a sinner having been cursed by God. When Yeshua explained that Laz rested in AB, while the rich man languished in torment, well, they would have flipped out! These guys were always busy justifying themselves in the sight of men, but their doings were an abomination to God (they marginalized Moses & the prophets by making their own set of laws that made them rich – such as permitting a man to divorce his wife – a thing which Moses originally instituted because men compelled him to do so). They would have quickly understood the implications Yeshua was making, thus the Pharisees also plotted to kill Laz. This is no coincidence – the two Lazarus’ being mentioned in such close proximity. Yeshua locked them in on their path to destruction (He knows how to reserve the unjust until the day of judgment to be punished).
Varied thoughts from previous posts+questions:
Heb 12:1-3 is actually a great metaphor when viewed in greater context. Jesus is the runner who first completes the marathon, but instead of going home, remains at the finish line to encourage the other runners to cross it and enjoy their own prizes. Is our prize death without thinking? Or do we currently HAVE eternal life (present tense genitive possessive)?
Also consider Col 3:4, this is very similar to 1Thes 4:14, saints appear WITH Christ. In short all of the resurrection verses say that we will break forth from the grave by the power of Yeshua, yet 2000yrs later it has not happened. I see the already-not yet tension so common in the NT at play here. The soul+spirit have been redeemed but the body still waits.
Dry bones of Eze 37 is figurative for the regathering and salvation of national ethnic Israel. I am not replacement. Currently the bones of Israel have lost hope (Eze 37:11). This is because they reject Messiah and followed after the heresy of Talmud. Paul tells us this is for the benefit of Gentiles.
But God has not reneged on his promise to Abraham, eventually the bones (figurative for the unsaved nation) jitter and come together, and are built up over a period of time (long enough time period that Eze can watch and record). This is not the actual resurrection at the coming of Christ because that event happens in a twinkle. Eze 37:8 the bones had regathered but still had no life, definitely not the resurrection at the Parousia. Possibly this is where we are at today, Israel is regathered in her land but is without Jesus’ life. Then God breathes on the dead body and “all Israel shall be saved” per Rom 11:26. I don’t think this vison is applicable to the intermediate state.
Patrick, if you click my name you can find an email on my website, and we can take some of the tangent issues off Michael’s AB blog. We’re burning a lot of characters with stuff that may not be relevant.
Jay,
Ussher has all generations (excpt Cainan, Luk.3:36) until the Egypt Captivity, which we know the duration of. Time given in yrs btwn entering Palestine and Sol’s temple dedication. Succession of kings is right on, comparing Kngs and Chrns (2 sep dating systems used). Dan’s 70 wks takes the chron to 1st Advent. Milnial Reign is 2nd Sab Age (the 1st at Creation) w/ 6K yrs (6 ages) btwn Sabs accounted for perfectly (per above) according to literal Scriptures.
Wicked spirits imperishable: Adam returned to dust 70 yrs prior to 1st Sab Day’s end, as God said. Spiritual death – oxymoron. Where is spiritual death mentioned? Do fallen angels die? Man’s spirit is as it should be (but needs God’s Spirit to perfect/receive back glory) – man’s soul is the problem – it has the will that rebels against God. Self-awareness came at the fall (eyes opened) due to loss of glory – that’s as close as I get to “spiritual death”. I believe “spiritual separation” is a better term. Flesh, after the fall, went weak. Man fell immediately after eating, but Gen.2:17 refers to returning to dust. 1 Day = 1K yrs. Adam died 930 yrs & w/in the (litrl) Day. Only the body goes to dust. Spirit came from God, not dust. Soul forms thru experience while alive – not from dust. Spirit/soul involve no phys matter – immaterial – things not seen are eternal (2Cor.4:18).
2k words 2 small!
1 place: Sheol – big cave w/ compartmnts – 1 key opens/shuts. Yeshua said “the gates of Hades won’t prevail” – will the Church smash the gates and attack? Those gates are for keeping things in, not out. “Gates will not prevail” means the Church (souls) will come out of Hades (AB) one day – Messiah has the key. Place of Torment/AB (combined) occupies less space than planet earth, where all graves are. Your 1 PLACE (grave) is bigger than my 1 PLACE (Sheol). Ecc.3:19 just states both man & beast die. Both feed the dust w/ bodies, but I don’t believe Scriptures make clear the locale of animals’…
Ok, you agree Isa 53 is poetry and I agree that it is flagged with simile language (prepesitional kaph). But the point is that sometimes poetry is evocative. It is not always “flagged” as you say. Sticking to the sheep simile (because everyone understands that people are sometimes likened to sheep for their following habit) look at 1Chron 21:17; Jer 25:34-36; Eze 34. My point is that flagging is not mandatory, you need to read context and use common sense. Common sense tells me that kings didn’t take weapons of war down to sheol with them. Some non-literal unflagged language is occurring. You need to use common sense, not blind literalism.
I like your suggestion to use biblical language. We won’t go wrong if we stick to the vocab of Word. At your bequest, I will drop “conscious” and go with “thoughts”+”knowledge.” Before the Res people had no thoughts after death per Ecc 9:5 and Ecc 9:10. This prohibits Ab and Dives from talking, also prohibits dead kings from gossiping in Ez32 and Is14. After the Res believers live even though they die (John 11:25-26). Notice the believers NEVER die. Even though the body dies, the person (soul-personality) does not die. I don’t think this change in vocab changes anything in my thesis. It might even be more strict, as some level of thinking is requisite even in sleep and coma within the subconscious.
In post 124 you said sheol stirring the dead to speak (as in Ezek32) matches Lk16 to a tee. Not really. In Eze the dead in sheol are talking to each other+to the king of Babylon who just joined them. In Lk16 the dead in hades (Grk translation for sheol) are making an international roaming call to AB.
In post 125 you said about thrones in sheol ” a place of distinction is given to kings.” This is contraindicated by Ecc 9:2. Death is the equalizer of all men.
Do you agree that sheol and abaddon are synonymous?
See Job 26:6; Prov 15:11; Prov 27:20
Patrick,
You have mentioned dead people returning to suffer the GTrib. This does not fit within my system at all. I am post-trib rapture/resurrection. The dead rise at the same time that the living are caught up (1Thes 4:16-17). It all happens at the Parousia, the glorious Coming, which is AFTER the tribulation. Nobody has a reincarnation for a second chance to prove themselves during the GTrib.
Today is the day of salvation (2Cor 6:2). No second chances.
Yes, when Yeshua returns (after GTrib) all believers will be bodily resurrected and bound forever to Jesus. Not literally with a rope, but we will be at His side always. This seems to preclude a resuscitation for second chance at martyrdom during the GTrib.
When saints are resurrected they are given an immortal body, perfected and like the body of Jesus. Such a body cannot die, so it wouldn’t make sense sending them into the GTrib to become martyrs. They are unkillable.
Are you advocating a resurrection/reincarnation with a mortal body to prove themselves via martyrdom? What verses do you draw that idea from? It doesn’t sound correct, but I’ll listen if you have Scriptural backup.
Jay,
The manner of His exodus: Luk.9:31 is likely in reference to the manner of His death, as also used in 2Pet. He was opening of Scriptures to them, same as He did for those spirits whom He went and proclaimed to in Sheol (1Pet.). Note that “spirits” here (1Pet.) is highly irregular (only place where spirits are in Sheol other than bound angels), but the passage is in reference to men, not angels. These are those to whom no law ever came – antediluvians – who were only then brought under the law by His proclamations to them. Their spirits were trapped under the water of the Mabool. The Mabool was specifically designed to be a spirit-catcher – No AB at that time. AB was established about the time men started dying in mass after the Mabool.
Joh.5:25 & Mat.27:5 are likely the same. Yeshua gave a temporary res as a last call to convert Jews/reveal that forgiveness was yet extended. Compare w/ John 5:20-21. No time is reckoned in AB. Personally, I believe when we die it will be as if no time has passed before we stand resurrected – it won’t matter if you’ve been in AB for 6k yrs, or 6 secs – it will all seem a short time from death to res.
Ascension from the grave: Psa.30:3 & Psa.40:2: Psa.30 is a bad translation – word rendered “grave” is actually “sheol”. Translators have really botched sheol/hell (SH#7585) with grave (6900 – kevura) in the OT. This is the major problem in untangling what the Scriptures actually say. Psa.40 is not necessarily in ref to death. Great res. chapter if taken figuratively.
Nowhere does it say that anyone ascends to the NJ. The NJ comes down. We will ascend up into atmospheric clouds (part of the shamayim) at the Rapture to meet Him. Before that time, we WILL ascend to that literal OT city in the res, being led from the north country (Jer.). Jerusalem has always been God’s earthly seat, even in Gen.(Melchizedek). The NJ will make it official again.