I remember when I was young, I was taught that there was a place called “Abraham’s Bosom.” The way it was explained to me made perfect sense at the time. You go to heaven if you trust in Christ. You go to hell if you don’t. People go to heaven because Christ’s atonement on the cross paid for their sins. God cannot be in the presence of sin (Hab. 1:13). Therefore, those who are covered by Christ’s death can be in the presence of God. Those who are not, cannot.
So far so good? But there is a problem: what about all God’s people who came before Christ’s death? What about Abraham, Moses, David, and Isaiah? According to the theory, they were not yet covered by Christ blood. Conclusion: they, before Christ’s death, were not in the presence of God. They were somewhere else waiting for their sins to be covered.
This “somewhere else” was known as “Abraham’s Bosom.” Think “Protestant Purgatory” or something like that. Abraham’s Bosom existed as a holding tank for God’s people until Christ’s death on the cross. Once the atonement was made, Abraham’s Bosom it was vacated as all its occupants were ushered into God’s presence in heaven.
The name “Abraham’s Bosom” came from the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16. “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried” (Luke 16:22). Notice, this parable was given before Christ’s atonement. Therefore, people have said that this must be the place, between heaven and hell, that pre-Cross saints went to.
Why there is no such thing as Abraham’s Bosom
As nice and tidy as that might sound theologically and biblically, it does not really work. There is no such place as Abraham’s Bosom.
First, the idea that God cannot be in the presence of sin is untenable.
The passage in Hab. 1:13 simply means that God is too pure to approve sin. It has nothing to do with sin or evil being in God’s presence. Here are some of the reasons:
- After the fall, we find God walking in the Eden with Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:8).
- Satan himself can be in God’s presence. In Job 1:6, we see Satan presenting himself before God (see also 1 Chron 18:18-21; Rev. 12:10).
- Christians, who are still sinners (1 John 1:8), are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Obviously the Holy Spirit must be able to be in the presence of sin.
- Christ, God incarnate, was in the presence of sin the whole time he walked the earth (John 1:14). He was even carried in the womb of a sinner!
Second, the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus does not teach that “Abraham’s Bosom” is a separate heaven.
In the parable, Christ is confronting the religious leaders’ bad theology. They were lovers of money (Luke 16:14). They believed that being rich and healthy was a sign that God was on your side. If you were poor and sick then God was not with you. In the parable, the rich man, whom all the Pharisees thought was the best Jew with great rewards waiting for him in heaven, found himself in torment in Hell. The poor sick man, who was, in the mind of the Pharisees, a bad Jew, was ushered by the angels to Abraham’s “side” or “bosom.” The idea is not ontological (dealing with a physical place), but relational. To be at one’s side or bosom represented the closest place of fellowship one could have with another. The one who the Pharisees believed was not a good child of Abraham winds up at the closest place of fellowship that there is—Abraham’s bosom. Christ was being rhetorical. The rich man is unnamed and forgotten forever. Lazarus’ name means “God helps”. The rich man dies and is buried. The poor man dies and is carried by the angels. The rich man goes to hell, “far away” from Abraham (Luke 16:23). The poor man goes to Abraham’s side, in heaven.
Conclusion
Saints in the Old Testament did not need a special dispensation. God can be in the presence of sin. If he could not be in the presence of sin, we are in big trouble. Nevertheless, they were forgiven in anticipation of Christ’s atonement. When David, Abraham, Moses, and other Old Testament saints died, they immediately went into the presence of God on the bases of Christ’s shed blood, though yet future.
Romans 3:24-26
“Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”
335 replies to "The Myth of “Abraham’s Bosom”"
Michael I have a good word and a bad word for you. Upbeat first, you said: “This is why it’s so important to have an interpretive paradigm that takes into account the differences between the Old Testament and the New Testament in the progress of Revelation.”
My point exactly. I could not have said it better, you have echoed my whole thesis. I believe in soul sleep for the OT believer before the resurrection of Jesus, but sentient existence in heaven after death for NT believer. As you said: there is a difference between the OT and the NT. Amen. The apex of cosmic history is the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is a turning point, a pivot point, a watershed. The resurrection changes everything.
Now the bad word, I’ll be gentle: you said “soul sleep…finds little support in the Bible.” And that the OT contains “deficient eschatology.” Did you hover over those sheol verses from my previous post and read them? How can you read Ecc 9:10 and conclude that soul sleep is not taught explicitly in the Hebrew Scripture? To have no thought means no brain activity, even dreaming is thought. No brain activity whatsoever is flatline EEG, perhaps soul sleep is a misnomer. We should call it soul dead. Isa 26:14 no memory means you wouldn’t even know who you are-total amnesia and nobody would know you. How could Dives (Latin for Richman) ask for a favor to his brothers if he had truly been in sheol? He wouldn’t even know that he had brothers. Unless as you propose the OT has deficient eschatology. Did the HS make a goof when he was inspiring David to write Psalms and Qoholeth to scribe his wisdom of vanities?
I agree with progressive revelation. I hope that is what you were trying to say. God reveals tidbits at a time. Like the tip of an iceberg. When you get to the end of it, the big picture is totally different than what you had imagined in the beginning. But that original tip is still there and still relevant and still true…
… (continued from above) Muslims and Mormons believe in supercessionary revelation. As God continues to reveal Himself the most recent revelation is dominant and all other past revelations become void if and when conflict exists. This is a clean incontrovertible excuse to explain discrepancies between Bible and Quran. Quran trumps the Bible. Unfortunately, there do exist some Christians that use this hermeneutic between OT and NT. Most believers reject it based on Heb 13:8.
Whatever is said in Ecc 9:10 is absolutely true at that point in time (perhaps not literally-we must allow for hyperbole and figure of speech). ‘At that point in time’ is an important qualifier. For instance Gen 2:15 obviously that situation did not last real long. There was a point in time when Adam was supposed to keep a garden. Stuff changes. However there is not any newer more important revelation that retroactively unsays what at an earlier time had been true. Ecc 9:10 is not deficient eschatology. It displays that before the resurrection of Jesus death and non existence was the fate of mankind.
Michael, I’ll take your advice. You asked for NT verses with a similar teaching of a dead soul before Christ and a living soul after Christ.
Eph 2:1, Eph 2:5 and Col 2:13 Paul repeats this 3 times. I think it might be important. Notice you had been dead, past tense, but now the believer is alive. They were not bodily dead. Before their conversion, their heart pumped and their brain was thinking. They were spiritually dead. We call it the soul, the immaterial aspect of man. All humans had been dead ever since that fateful day in Eden.
Why were they dead? Because Rom 6:23 It does not say that the wages of sin is separation from God or life in hell. Death according to Webster is non- sentience, non responsive, no thinking, no knowledge, no action, no emotion. The dead know nothing, but I’m not quoting at your request OT passages here.
Gloriously, stuff changes. 2 Cor 5:17 what is created when an person comes into Christ? I propose, it is a new soul.
John 6:63 GIVES life means that before the gifting, life was not there. What is the absence of life? Ask any dictionary –that answer is death.
1John 5:11-13 Notice the Greek verbs are present active tense. We HAVE life now. This is not a future promise. It is today for us that have the Son.
If the soul had previously to Christ been dead, truly ontologically dead, then all of those OT verses are perfectly correct at their face value. Jesus was the firstfruits of resurrection, the very first to conquer death. But he is not the last. The very kernel of the gospel message is that LIFE is available by Jesus. Yes it means bodily physical eternal life in the resurrection per Randy Alcorn and NT Wright. But it also means Soulful life now. This means that during the intermediate period (before the resurrection) dead Christians go to heaven.
Jay, I think you are defining death according to a dictionary definition rather than according to the theological definition, derived from the Bible.
It is true death means the absence of life. However, the absence of life is defined theologically, I believe, by our relational separation from God. Therefore, as Revelation states, even those who have been resurrected and judged, will experience the second death which is a maternal death. There souls remain alive, even though they are still dead to God. This must mean spiritual death which is a relational breach between God and man. This is not an ontological death.
And, the New Testament seems to be very clear about the absence of the body meaning that we are present with The Lord. If this is the case then there is a life without the body. This would be a relational life and a life of the soul. Therefore, I do not believe that there is ever an ontological extinction of the soul for once created people.
Jay as I said we will have to agree to disagree and I am only willing to listen to the holy scriptures.
Your theory disregards a group of people seated in heaven PRIOR the the opening of the judgement seals. (Angels are never pictured seated before the throne in the scriptures, the church is) You disregard their song
Rev 5 “9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”
According to your view these must be disembodied spirits. These disembodied spirits are pictured as conscious seated and singing. This naturally does not fit with your view of soul sleep therefore it has to be disregarded and not to be literally interpreted and yet when something in revelation does fit your view you will take it literally to back up your argument.
Even if we put revelation in the too hard basket you still refuse to believe the plain text of Jesus coming for us so that we can be with him in heaven. You refuse to address the clear scriptures saying that our citizenship is in heaven and that we are to be seated in heavenly places.
To finish Jay, I am “LOOKING for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Tit 2:13 that “….when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is” 1Jo 3:2 and that “Because THOU hast kept the word of my patience, I also will KEEP THEE from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try THEM that dwell upon the earth
To those who want to be here for the worst period in earth’s history
Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
anyway Jay we have digressed. This forum is about abrahams bosom. I apologise fellow posters.
My last comment on the subject.
Regards
Bill
…(continued) Figures of speech abound in the pages of the Bible, much more so than some Fundy types will admit.
However changing the definition of words from what they originally meant to accommodate your opinion is cheating with the HGH. Death as separation was a medieval Catholic invention of Thomas Aquinas. He was smart enough to know that he had serious problems with the text, but stubborn enough to never admit Church tradition could be wrong.
My opinion is that theological definitions are bogus. Words are words. They mean what they mean. If you discover that they blow your hypothesis, then like a good scientist you go back to the laboratory (in our case the Book) and find a new theory. You never cook the data to make it fit your pet theory.
Michael,
Are there other words in Scripture that use a “theological definition” instead of a normal useage? I find it disturbing that God would play semantic games by using words in a fashion that nobody understands. Personally, I think it is tantamount to lying. If death does not really mean death, then maybe eternal life has a “theological definition” that’s totally unexpected for a person with only basic language skills. I wonder if faith, repentance, and love have theological definitions contrary to a dictionary.
What verses are you thinking about to redefine death away from its normal dictionary meaning into “relational separation from God”? Pls advise, this is of critical importance to support your hypothesis.
Consider Isa 53:9 this is Messianic about Jesus. Notice the parallel between grave (Heb qeber- not sheol-this is the common word for burial place) and death. Did Jesus not ontologically die? If so, then we are not ontologically saved. Parallelism is a common feature of Heb literature signifying the synonymy of these words. Death+grave are metonyms. Does grave have a secret meaning too? …
Sorry for cheating on the 2000character limit, you got me worked up (in a good way my friend)…
The Hebrew verb ‘muth’ (translated as ‘to die’) and the related noun ‘maveth’ (translated as ‘death’) are used 1000x. It is an extremely common word. It commonly carries the standard dictionary meaning. NT Gk noun ‘thanatos’ and its related cognates (verbal ‘thanska’) also are used in the normal way. How do we know when to apply theological definitions and when to read it for what it says? Does God speak in theological code language? Do we need priests and philosophers to figure out these hidden theological definitions?
I am proposing a standardly accepted historical grammatical hermeneutic, the words mean what it originally meant in the day of the audience. We have over 1000 examples. ONE THOUSAND EXAMPLES. I believe that the dictionary is correct. Webster has more theological insight than the philosophers. Death means the total and permanent cessation of all vital functions. When applied to a spirit it means the same thing. Go to a funeral home. Dead people don’t move, think, have action or emotion.
Michael, To prove your point of anything other than normal language with special theological definitions to be selectively applied to certain passages, the onus of the burden of proof is on you.
‘Nough for now. Blessings for a Christ filled day. JAY
Whoops- I messed up. this is supposed to be part 1 of 3.
Ouch, let’s back up Michael. I think you’re a smart guy and I like your posts, but let’s start from the beginning, placate me please:
We believe in plenary (from Latin plenus-filledup) inspiration of the original manuscripts. Another words: the text is true. Correct?
We believe in divine preservation of the Scripture so that today the text we have is really really good. I’m not claiming some extreme right wing fundy dogma that there is zero typo errors (how many horses did Solomon have? 1 Kings 4:26 cf 2 Chron 9:25). But when it comes to important stuff, our text is accurate. Life and death is pretty dang important. You with me so far?
We support an historical grammatical hermeneutic. A passage is best understood within the context, culture, history, and language of the author. This is standard among conservative scholars. Will you classify yourself as reasonably conservative? An HGH means that we attempt, like a good scientist, to remove outside influences, our personal and cultural bias. So that we read Scripture as it was originally intended to Israelite and Greco-Roman audiences.
I believe that you likely agree with me so far. But I am concerned that this last point, removing our preconceived ideas, is where you fell off the wagon.
The acceptation of vocabulary is part of the grammar. It is the structure of the language. The intent, message, and significance of a particular word meaning must be within the time and culture of the prophet. I am NOT advocating wooden literalism. The Hebrews were knee deep in hyperbole and symbolism. Matt. 23:24 but the Pharisees had eyesight vision, and nobody ever ate camels (they did literally stain gnats with gauze). John 1:29 Jesus is not really a farmyard lamb. It is a symbol of his gentleness and obedience. Rev 13:1 There will not literally be a big nasty dragonesque beast with 10 horns stomping on people in the last days. It is a symbol for an evil government.
Bill, I agree that this is not time/place to dig into rapture. Some of your ideas are about the intermediate state which is directly relevant to the AB blog.
Phil 3:20 Paul was a Roman citizen, but he hailed from Cilicia city of Tarsus. Paul did not live in Rome. Just because we are citizens of heaven does not mean that we live there. Man are made for earth (Ps 115:16). The resurrection will be bodily and physical. Here is the great part, per NT Wright (and me) heaven and earth will merge. They will synthetically combine, so that spiritual things will become plainly visible to the naked eye. We will see God (Mat 5:8).
Eph 2:6 This seems to support my position. Remember I believe in soul sleep before the Resurrection and NO soul sleep after the resurrection. For me Res of JesusCh is key to life, even an afterlife. Note Greek verb is active aorist. It means we currently +continually arebeing made to sit WITH Jesus in heavenly places. Sitting is going on now and was in Paul’s day 55ad. This appears to support the idea that Christians go to heaven when they die. It appears that if this verse means present tense current reality as I suggest, then it contradicts your position of the soul’s conscious existence in a holding tank like AB (per JusMartr as you noted). It specifically says they are in heaven.
As to the 24 elders, I’m not sure if they are men or angels, but I won’t quibble with your assumption that they are men. As you pointed out, Yes I would say that they are disembodied spirits of believers in heaven. This fits perfectly with my view of Death before Jesus’ advent and Life after Jesus’ advent. Remember, if you’ve been reading my posts- my theory breaks the curse the grave (soul sleep) at the Resurrection of Jesus Christ circa 33ad. The Revelation was written about 96ad, so this is well into the creation of afterLIFE for believers. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead (Col 1:18). Another words, He was the very first human to beat death.
Jay, in repsonse to
“Phil 3:20 Paul was a Roman citizen, but he hailed from Cilicia city of Tarsus. Paul did not live in Rome. Just because we are citizens of heaven does not mean that we live there.”
In isolation and when using human reasoning one could come to this conclusion. However when comparing scripture with scripture the following scriptures make it clear exactly what Paul is talking about.
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:9….Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Hi Bill, I do not understand your point. I agree that dead Christians are spiritually in heaven with Jesus. My point had been that resurrected physical bodies do not live in heaven (notwithstanding the temporary anomaly of a possible pre-trib rapture if you insist).
I thought you believed that Christians were not in heaven per Justin Martyr? Pls clarify what we are talking about. Sorry, but you lost me at the heavenly place.
Hi Jay,
Sorry I meant to add more but ran out of time and space. Hopefully I will unlose you. The point I am trying to make is that a christians calling is a heavenly one, full stop and not an earthly one. The christian/old testament saint is promised a heavenly jerusalem not an earthly jerusalem, The elect of Israel are promised that not us.
The heavenly inherit the heavenly. The earthy must bear the image of the heavenly because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 15 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Flesh and blood go into the millenial kingdom, and repopulate a decimated earth. Those in the millenial kingdom are blessed with long life but are still flesh and reproduce. Resurrected saints cannot reproduce as you are no doubt aware.
Isra
Bill, have you read Randy Alcorn’s Heaven http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Randy-Alcorn/dp/0842379428/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1370960820&sr=1-1&keywords=randy+alcorn
And Tom Wright’s Surprised by Hope http://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1370960876&sr=1-1&keywords=nt+wright+books
Before we go any further, I think you would be well served with them as a background. Both books are available used on Amazon for about $7. The resurrection is bodily, just like Jesus, not exclusively spiritual in another worldly realm. It happens here on earth. In my opinion your dispensationalism has you looking at our reward dualistically. I believe that God’s people are one, there is no separation between church and Israel.
Maybe we need direction from CMP or a webmaster, because perhaps our eternal home in the resurrection and the identity of Israel in the NT are too far off topic from intermediate state of AB to be appropriately posted here. If Michael, gives us the go ahead I am pleased to be unlosed.
Sorry I didn’t think we were getting off track. An earthly Israel living on an earthly kingdom is very relevant as it is something clearly promised throughout the old testament and remember that one of your points against AB was that only intermediate saints can be in heaven. I have endeavoured to show that this is not correct by showing the heavenly blessing promised to the church and the earthly promises to Israel.
As to my belief of a literal Israel and their promises blessings, I believe because
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
This includes the old testament promises to Israel
and last but not least because our LORD said that scripture cannot be broken
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
God Bless
Luk.16, AB, is not a parable. No hidden meanings, but is plain. Parable is pushed because the implications otherwise lead to discussions about soul destinations after death, such are here being discussed. We must strive for unity under such conditions, but NOT compromise the Word. Souls go down whether righteous, or unrighteous (except for martys, which go up. Righteous go to AB/Paradise (Eze.’s trees of Eden went down to the depths of the earth). Paradise. All NT refs to Paradise confirm that it is AB – even 2Cor.12 (Paul briefly boasts of visionS in this passage, not vision; the conjunction AND between the 3rd heaven and Paradise, plus the repetitive phrase “whether in the body or out …God knows”, all support two separate (and very brief) accounts of visionS he received – one “up” (3rd heaven), and the other, in contrast, “down” (Paradise). The phrase “caught up”, used twice, has no given direction in the Greek, but means “seized”. Bottom line: Adam was made perfect, but was untested. Adam was ignorant of evil, so God counselled him against it. God tested Adam. Adam failed. Adam died in sin. … Christ died. Through faith in the coming Savior (Gen.3) Adam will rise again to be tested (in other words, God didn’t say, “Oh well” at Adam’s transgression, but means to take him right back to it under enlightened conditions made possible by Christ’s provision). Adam will be dead to sin, filled with the Spirit, and know good & evil. If he abides in the Spirit he will be saved. If not, he will be found in antichrist’s camp at the Lord’s 2nd coming. Salvation, which is life from the dead, is free & irrevocable. The Great Tribulation Period (42 mos., starting with trump 7) is the judgment. We must walk in the Spirit. Christ will not die a second time for sins. The souls of martyrs go to heaven, for they require no further testing (they gave their all like Christ). These and angels are the saints coming with Christ. In the mean time, righteous souls…
require a place of rest until confirmation into heaven. This place is Paradise – AB.
Patrick,
the conjunction “and” is not used within Hebrew literature (Paul was a Pharisee of Benjamin) to conjoin two separate disparate things. That is 20th century usage of the conjunction. In the Bible “and” is used for synonymy and parallelism.
Ps 119:105 this is repetition for emphasis, not giving a bullet list of characteristics
Isa 9:6 were two separate messianic babies born?
Phil 2:7-8 notice the and at beginning of verse 8. Did Jesus come twice? First time born in the likeness of men AND then again in human form?
There are hundreds of examples of this form of Hebraic parallelism.
Point being and use of “and” in 2 Cor 12:2-3 between paradise and third heaven, does not signify an upward AND secondly a downward trip. On the contrary, it is evidence that paradise is identical with the third heaven. They are the same place.
Rev 2:7 is metaphor. We are not saved by eating fruit from some magical tree. Jesus IS the tree of life (Rev 22:14), if we eat Him then we shall have life (John 6:53). Jesus is currently at the right hand of God, in the 3rd heaven=paradise. This is why Rev 2:7 said that tree was in paradise. Jesus=Tree of Life.
Do you propose that Jesus AND the tree of Life are in protestant purgatory?
What is your basis for granting martyrs immediate access to heaven, but other “lesser” Christians must “be confirmed into heaven”?
Jesus said that anyone who thinks about adultery or murder has already committed them in their heart (Mat 5:28, Mat 5:21-22).
So, if I think about being a martyr, does that count to get me into the presence of my Lord and bypass purgatory?
You know the word “martyr” actually means witness, so you may have more folks in heaven then accounted for by this theory.
Jay,
Thanks for your comments.
Not clear about some of your statements regarding the word AND used in 2Cor.12:3 (Gk. kai – used 1000s of Xs in the NT) between third heaven and Paradise. Are you implying it is not a part of the original text? It seems you are saying that Paul, being Hebrew, would naturally improperly apply his Greek by using it as though it were Hebrew? See 2 Cor.11:9, where “kai” is used 4 xs. Seems proper to me. I don’t disagree with your treatment of OT references with regards to AND. The Greek word “kia” is also rendered “also” many times, which I believes lends to support my 2 seperate visionS interpretation. Please help me to better understand what you are saying about the use of “kai”.
Tree of life: was in the midst of the garden of Eden. Eze.31 states the trees of Eden were taken to the depths of the earth in ancient times to a place of comfort. Rev.22:2 states the tree of life has twelve fruits. Please specify what these 12 are in terms of a t.o.l.=Christ interpretation. Eze.47:12 parallels Rev.22 with a startlingly similar description of trees along a river, bearing fruit every month, plus other parallels. Are these figurative visions? Isa.51:3 states that Tseon will be like Eden after Messiah’s returns (compare with Eze.36:35). I have not spoken of the tree of life. You brought that up. I do not believe the Scripture supports God as using magic. I have not stated anything about salvation being linked to the tree of life. Jesus is our salvation, which is life from the dead through His substitutionary sacrifice. Please do not add to my words. I believe the tree of life is a tree in the midst of the Paradise of God (Gen.2/Rev.2). I believe that Paradise is terrestrial (albeit subterranean now)based on every passage available. No record anywhere of it being heaven (or in heaven).
I do not know what Protestant Purgatory is. Again, are you attempting to shift the conversation to more familiar grounds? TBC…
Yeshua (Jesus) is Omni-present – a benefit of being eternal. David (Psa.139) states that God’s presence is both in heaven and sheol. This confirms the special terminologies used in the NT with regards to soul destinations after death (i.e., we are never specifically told “when you die your soul goes to heaven”, which would be a paramount doctrine to be assured numerous times if this were true). Abesent from the body, present with the Lord, etc.. is a strong indication that there are multiple possible locations a believer’s soul could be directed to. Heaven (for martyrs for the word of God and the testimony they held) OR Paradise in the depths of the earth (AB) – the topic of this thread. Yes, Yeshua’s presence is in AB, while at the same time He is seated at the right hand of the Father. Do you confirm Omni-presence is a divine attribute, or not? What does this mean to you? Yes, the tree of life is in AB per Eze.31. If you do not believe in a literal tree of life, then the argument is mute. We will differ in interpretations. I think you should believe though.
I do not consider you, myself, or any believer a “lesser” believer just because they have not had the opportunity to die for the word of God – but many certainly have. Please don’t add to my words. Martyrs are there in heaven (under the altar of souls) not simply because they witnessed for God, but because they died for the word of God. What belongs under God’s altar? Ashes of the burnt offering. Anyone who has demonstrated a love for God to the point of death (I am speaking only within a Christian framework and not any other – reference Stephen’s death in Acts) requires no further demonstartion that he abides in God’s Spirit, which is what opens heaven to souls. I will let God decide who are His martyrs. The resurrection from AB (our salvation) will produce believers that are dead to sin (think about it), filled with the Holy Spirit (think about it), AND, know BOTH good and evil (think…
Hi Patrick, I agree the copulative conjunction “kai” is correctly part of the original text. The bible is NOT written in high classic Greek of the Golden age. It is written in colloquial Greek and contains many Hebraisms brought into it from Semitic languages. So I am claiming that Paul introduced well known Hebrew idiom to the Greek. You agreed with me for the OT usage of parallels. What we call the OT, was in Paul’s day just the Scripture. Scripture should always be interpreted by Scripture. Thus my idea that using OT parallels to rightly interpret NT parallels. I stand by my parallel interpretation of 2 Cor 12:2-3 wherein paradise=3rd heaven. I stand by my thought that the tree of life as used in the Rev is a symbol for Jesus.
Note the difference in literary style between Eze 31+32 vrs Eze 40-48. Chapters 31+32 are poetry. See the white space at margins in your bible? Ezekiel was the founder in the bible of the apocalyptic poetry style. It is later used by Daniel and John of Patmos. Chapters 40-48 (about the restored temple) are not in poetic form. I think the restored temple section is more literal. Notice these 2 sections were written at totally different times Eze 31:1 11th year and Eze 40:1 25th year. They are 14years apart.
I agree that Eze 40-48 are describing a literal millennial temple. I’m probably historic premil, so I have no qualms with a literal view of those chapters. Big river starts gushing from Zion, Dead Sea turns to fresh water, Arabah turns lush, etc. However, I do not think Rev 21-22 are literal. Revelation is a book of symbols. Rev 21:9 bride of Christ=new Jerusalem. Not literally a place in future. NJ is the church, it is sooo precious, so very expensive, that descriptions of gold and jewels hardly compare to the value of the NJ. God does not care about solid gold walls. He cares about people We, the church of redeemed saints are the precious city that the Messiah died for to possess
Its bad exegesis to use Eze 31, a graphic poem about a pompous king being debased and killed, to prove literal trees are in the underworld. That is a little bit too science fiction for me. How do trees get sunlight in the underworld? Are there animals there too to eat berries and fertilize roots with dung? Is there oxygen in the underworld? If paradise is literally in a sequestered subterranean local, do you think the earth is hollow? I view Eze 31 as poetic analogy between a king and a tree, nothing literal.
Eze31:3 big tree= Assyria. This is analogy. King of Assyria was a man, not a tree. But like a big tree his kingdom provided food+shelter for many small nations. Eze 31:4 God provided the water, all gifts come from God. Assyria grew very powerful. Eze 31:8-9 the hyperbole gets deep now. Taking this literal is a mistake, this is Hebrew apocalyptic poetry. Assyria was so beautiful and powerful, had been the standard of government of 1000yrs, that it was inconceivable that it would collapse. Like a mighty redwood tree in Calif, she was huge. Eze 31:8 Even the trees of Eden were jealous of his comeliness and treehood. Major hyperbole, trees do not have emotions like jealousy. Assyria was a highly advanced nation they excelled in engineering, military technology +astronomy. In context of the analogy “trees of Eden” probably refers to other nations of the world who were jealous of Assyria’s wealth and power.
Eze 31:10 the tree in analogy did not really reach to the clouds and trees do not literally have a heart.
Eze 31:11-12 describes the events of 605bc at battle of Carchemish. Assyria was defeated by Babylon. This was earth shattering (not really I’m using more hyperbole).
Eze 31:14 says that Assyria and her kings died. Ezekiel is giving a warning to Egypt that you too will fall due to your pride and pomp. They will all go to the grave.
Eze 31:15-17 Not ontologically about underworld. It speaks of death in poetic language.
Here’s my view of Rev 21:9-22:5. The chapter break is bad. This is one continuous vision with a tour guide angel. The stated purpose of the vision in Rev 21:9 to see bride. Physical cites are not the most precious thing in the universe, people are.
Rev 22:1 same angel, same vision. Water of life=Jesus (John 4:10-14). Salvation is by Jesus, not by ingesting magical water. Hint: whenever you see an inanimate substance (water, tree, rock, gate, etc) being a Lifegiver, then it is a Christogram. Remember this is apocalyptic poetry written 1000’s of years ago. Do not interpret as a 21st century American.
Rev 22:2 Street=Jesus, River=Jesus, Water=Jesus, Tree=Jesus, Fruit=Jesus, Leaves=Jesus. Please acknowledge this is a Christ centered interpretation. I know it sounds weird , how could Jesus be all that stuff at the same time? Symbolism. He is not really, ontologically any of that stuff. He is a man. 12 fruit, 12 is symbolic number of completeness. Filled up with fruit. There were 12 tribes+12 apostles. 12 is the number of ALL God’s people.
Since the whole vision of the NJ is about the Bride, perhaps these items are also viewing the church. Church +Jesus are bound very tightly. Think GkOrthodox doctrine of Theosis. We are becoming more and more like Him everyday. In the resurrection we will be just exactly like Him. Old married couples think alike, act alike, even look alike. We are becoming exactly like Jesus. Of course this is a resurrectional process, none of us has arrived yet. Point being fruit and leaves are also symbol of Church’s good works. Fruit is frequently a symbol of good works (Mat 7:16; John 15:8; Gal 5:22).
Rev 22:3-4 no curse, this is after resurrection, hence full and final Theosis. God and Church are unified… cont next
New Jerusalem vision continued…
Rev 22:5 This is also not literal, symbolically to have no night means no darkness of sin (John 3:19-20). The literal sun will exist eternally. Ps 72:5; Ps 89:35-37; Jer 31:35-36. After creating sun +moon to rule day and night on day#4 night was called “good.” The resurrection will be a return to Edenic state, a redemption (buying back) of what we had (only better). If night was good, then night need not be destroyed with the curse of sin and death. Only metaphoric night as a hiding place of sinners will be destroyed, not literal night.
Be careful not to confuse the new earth (a literal physical planet for eternity where we live in the resurrection) with the New Jerusalem (an allegory for the righteousness and preciousness of the Church).
Rev 22:14 Tree and Gate, both are symbols of Jesus. Jesus is the door to the Church. John 10:7.
Rev 22:15 Remember symbolism of this passage. Dogs are not evil animals, there will be dogs, wolves and other canine creatures in the New Earth (Isa 11:6). Dog=evil men. Dogs will NOT have eternal life, they are not part of the Bride. Dogs are outside, once you understand the rich Semitic symbolism then this makes perfect sense. New Jerusalem city = church. No evil doggy men in the church.
My bottom line point is that Rev 21+22 New Jerusalem is not literal. This is a symbol for the bride of Christ. It is an urban analogy, likening a city to a people.
No Jesus is not omnipresent. God is omnipresent, but Jesus is a man. People are not omnipresent. Look around you. Do you see Jesus? He is with you in spirit by the omnipresence of the Holy Ghost (God), but Jesus is not literally omnipresent. Yes, Jesus is God and God is Trinity. Father/Son/HG, but we cannot split them apart. They exist as God in a singularity. You are correct that God is in the grave-sheol Ps 139:8. Notice Ps 139:1 directs the praise toward YHWH. YHWH is in the grave, not Jesus. Let’s not get too ruffled over the precise Christological identity of YHWH vrs Jesus. Jesus is YHWH incarnate. He is the bodily form of God. But as such Jesus gave up, put aside, some of the glory of the Godhead (Phil 2:7). At Chalcedon circa 430ad the early church fathers were talking past each other on this Christological identity and a major rift separated the church. Let’s not make the same mistake. What I am saying is that Jesus the physical bodily resurrected man is not omnipresent. Human are saved by the physical bodily resurrected man, who became the 2nd Adam for us. Without the physical resurrection of Jesus our faith is vain (1Cor 15:14). Thus, Jesus the bodily resurrected man= Tree of Life. They are not in the underworld.
Martyrs only in heaven and all others consigned to AB until the resurrection is reminiscent of Islamic doctrine. Please check your sources about the origin of that one. I think you are setting up dual classes of believers. Those who perform and those who didn’t perform. Salvation is by grace alone. A martyr is not deserving of life, he is saved purely by God’s magnificent generosity. Your idea seems to undermine the gospel message of free grace to claim that attendance in heaven with Jesus is by good works.
Consider John 12:26 all servants will be with Jesus. John 17:24 non-martyrs are equally “given by the Father.”
Jay.
Thanks for your responses. It is always good to hear another believer’s points of view on “things Scripture”.
After having read through the Scriptures multiple times, and for the last 10 years or so having focused on many topical studies, I have thought a lot about what God’s word says, as I am sure you have also. As for me, from the beginning of my walk onwards, I have attempted to take God’s word literally, unless the passage makes it plain that something other than literal is intended. This has worked very well for me and I do not believe God is upset with me for having taken Him at His word, giving Him the benefit of the doubt that He is the greatest of Communicators, able to reach any man who is willing to believe and abide in His word. In contrast, you seem to employ an extesive interpretive filtering process (Hebrew idioms, symbolisms, apocalyptic poetical figuratisms, etc…), which has, to a large degree, prevented us from actually getting into the Scriptures. Let’s think about that for a moment. God wrote a complex book (I think we can both agree on that), and He wrote it, in part, with the intent that His word should be discussed between brothers. I do not believe He intends for us to banter over syntax, which adds nothing from the Spirit, but rather He intends that we should share what He has laid on our hearts. It is good that you are informing me that this is your methodology, and I am sure that you are not alone in that line of reasoning, but I have personally not found it necessary to apply such regimented rules of interpretation. I simply try to understand what God is saying within the context of verse, passage, chapter, book.
It also occurs to me that such a sophisticated approach might actually serve as an open door to censure God’s words. If a passage does not match a preconception, then such a filter could be employed to render it in other ways. I find the literalist approach is least likely to make such mistakes.
Patrick:
I agree with you in that it is best to interpret the scriptures literally unless it is clear that the passage, the chapter, and the rest of the Holy book says otherwise. Scripture must be used to interpret scripture and scripture upon scripture upon scripture upon scripture to establish a doctrine and not human argument.
Bill
Jay, you said, “That is a little bit too science fiction for me.” I do not pretend to understand how things work in the abode of the dead, or in heaven for that matter. Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard…, but God has revealed to us that the trees of Eden are accounted for in the depths of the earth. I need to believe God is not lying to me about that, or that I should dismiss what He has said, otherwise I might not trust (or believe) Him in other things He has said, like Jonah got swallowed by a big fish, or it rained for forty days and covered all the mountains, or the Red Sea was parted and people walked through, or that God came in the flesh to die for me and you.
There was no need for God to have added that bit about Eden going down into the account about Pharaoh being likened unto a mighty cedar. You have to admit that it is highly coincidental that Eden is said to have gone down to sheol, that Messiah was with the thief that day in Paradise, and that AB is the Jewish resting place (in Sheol) for departed souls of saints. Are you hearing that? It is a much bigger picture than you are giving it credit for, and I believe you might be missing it on account of your sytax filters.
The Assyria being spoken of would have to be a pre-Deluge nation, according to Eze’s context. It looks as though the post-Deluge Assyria we know about was named after the former. THe pre-deluge world was an altogether different kind of world that has vanished. We have no acces to how that would functioned. The fact that the cedar reached up into the clouds is a clue for us about that world. I believe God speaks the truth all the time.
Trees are mentioned repeatedly as kings and kingdoms. This is well established in the Scriptures, such as in this passage “so-and-so is like a tree”. Analogy defined.
What is said in Eze’s tree passage is perfectly consistent with all other doctrines about sheol
Hi Bill,
Glad we agree! I have read some of the stuff that you and Jay have discussed. I think I’m a mutt mixture between you two. I think Jay believes that the Church and Israel are one (two into one, not replacement theology), whereas I seem to recall that you are starting to believe that believers souls go down to sheol. I believe what the church in general is missing is that much (if not all) of what Messiah has said pertains to either 1) His crucifixion, or 2) the resurrection of the dead. AB makes the resurrection to the feet on the earth in the Tribulation, where believers will be confirmed by God as being able to walk in the Spirit. This is not a works-based doctrine, but the simple reality of showing, “Yeah, I heard what you said God, and I have believed You at Your word. Because I believed I received, and because I received I now walk. Enock walked – and God took him.”
Patrick:
Yeah it is not the first thing I have changed my mind on. You know how it is you read a passage twenty times over the years and on the twenty first time something entirely new will come to understanding. When I first became a christian I was an arminian and would probably come under the tag of replacement theology. Many years of study now has me a limited atonement christian that believes in a literal israel receiving the old testament promises including temple worship during the millenium. My view always has been remain teachable and to put things to the test. As you read my latest is thinking that the souls of christians dont go to heaven. Im not a hundred percent sure that my new view is right . My prayer is that if I am wrong that the Lord would lead me to the correct view.
God Bless
Bill
Bill,
That’s a very encouraging report you gave. Keep going brother! God takes us from wherever we are and grows us with His word. Keep reading! That’s all God expects, along with trust in Him.
You might want to consider whether the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other in terms of your understanding about the relationship between Israel and the Church. I believe your view has improved immensely from that of replacement theology, but you might still be missing something very wonderful where you are now with your belief. I have a lot to say about this, but will try to remain on track with the thread.
Romans states we (Gentiles) are being grafted into the olive tree that is Israel. Messiah is the root of that tree. That speaks of unity between the two. Ephesians is another good source to verify this.
Romans also states that the whole creation groans in anticipation of the revealling of the sons of God (the Church), which I interpret to mean the resurrection from the dead (out of AB) to the feet, standing on the earth. One of the reasons for this earthy resurrection (aren’t all resurrections in the Scriptures earthly for goodness sakes!) is to repay the Jews for the blessing that was temporarily passed on to us. They largely rejected Messiah, and the gospel turned to Gentiles. Israel’s loss was our gain, but God wants the favor returned. With the resurrection of the righteous dead comes a huge ministry. The world will have been shaken by tribulations and many will be ready to hear the gospel message preached from our lips, particularly the Jews.
If AB is the place from which Israel and the Church rises, then I personally believe soul sleep (which is referenced several times in the NT) is the most logical conclusion in terms of our state. We will be dead. We will be in Messiah. Time ceases. Eden (AB) is a place of comfort, not torment, not some kind of purgatory. We rest. We close our eyes in dying and you open them again a moment …
later, despite any duration of time gone by.
Please understand, this state of consciousness part, of course, is only conjecture on my part, but the Scriptures do tell us that the time is short until the Lord returns, and that He is coming at an hour we do not expect Him.
I am not a pre-tribber because there are too many conflicting passages with the notion. Much of that doctrine forces the view that Messiah is coming back to regenerate our dead bodies, with our souls in tow behind Him, whereas I believe the emphasis is not on Him coming back for bodies alone, but to wake up our souls and form them into a unified army under the Lord of hosts. He is coming back for the Body (of souls) who are believers in Him. He will raise us to our feet and be a cloud of protection over us, guiding us just as in the Exodus. Jeremiah makes reference that the day is coming when they will no longer say, “The Lord who brought them out of Egypt,” but will say “The Lord who brought them out of the northern territory.” The seven churches of the Revelation would be considered north of Jerusalem. We don’t go up to heaven and then return to earth. We die and our soul rests in AB until the upward call is heard. In the tribulation, the fields will be white for harvest. Pray that the Lord sends many laborers into that field.
I commend a literal approach most of the time. However, figure of speech is a common feature of language. We use it a lot in English too. When reading Bible we tend to pay very close attention to every word, as it is the word of God himself. This is a good thing. However, occasionally we forget the rhetorical device called metaphor. Scripture is not always written literally. I think it is quite juvenile, like a 6yr old, to believe that everything is wooden literal.
Literalizing is usually an excellent hermeneutic and a worthy trait. However, you get into trouble when literalizing Hebraic apocalyptic literature (esp Ezek,Dan,Rev). The apocalyptic style is highly symbolic. Rev is complete with a 7 headed dragon, Jesus as a lamb, and 2 witnesses described as candlesticks and olive trees. None of that is literal. Its symbolic. Symbols describe something using the imagery of another thing. Eze’s cedar tree is specifically referenced as an allegory in Eze 31:3 “Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon.” The contrast with Eden is set up in Eze 31:8-9 when the trees of the garden are anthropomorphized to be jealous. Please check your literalism at the door, plants are not emotional.
Eze 31:15 is still in context of the analogy set up in v3. The cedar goes to the grave. To claim that the figure of speech has ceased and now we are really talking about sending plants to the underworld is a contradiction of the gospel. The gospel message is that God became human in order to save humans. He became a man in order to save men. He died in order to rescue the dead. To extend soteriological options to the plant world is beyond the pale of Christianity, and frankly something I have never before encountered. If plants go to AB, then plants are awaiting a resurrection. If plants await a resurrection, then Jesus died for plants.
Assyria means Assyria, not some mythic antediluvian civilization. Now you’re the one being non-literal. Although God frequently uses figure of speech that any teenager can recognize, He does not talk over people’s head in secret code language. I am a firm believer AGAINST Gnostic interpretations. Gnostic means that you must have special clandestine knowledge to properly interpret. This chapter is written by an Israelite prophet in the 6thcentury BC (Ezekiel) speaking to Pharaoh of Egypt. It is a reprimand, a dirge, a warning that because of his pride for his mighty kingdom on the Nile, he will die anyway and his empire will fall just like the great superpower Assyria had fallen at Carchemish. Neo-Assyria of Nineveh was very recent world history that everyone would be aware of at the time of this writing. What you are interpreting would be secret gnostic history that require “clues” to unlock. Absolutely nobody would understand. It would make this message to Pharaoh meaningless and over his head. It is no longer truly about a prideful king, it is about plants in the underworld and collapse of pre-flood world system of which zero history is recorded.
My point being that the passage must first and foremost apply to the man to whom it is addressed. Of course, the words also apply to proud rulers of all ages, but it is originally a word to Pharaoh. It must be intelligible to Pharaoh. It must have meaning for Pharaoh. Its much more probable that Assyria means Assyria of the 7thcent bc.
Btw, the word translated as “Assyria” is the Heb word “ashur.” It is the name of the 2nd son of Shem (Gen 10:22). He was born after the flood. Assyria was founded after the flood (Gen 10:11).
Patrick said “You have to admit that it is highly coincidental that Eden is said to have gone down to sheol.”
It is not at all strange, I believe Eden died. Of course a state like Eden is not a sentient being so it cant experience biological death. I mean that figuratively for cessation of existence. Similarly John says in Rev 20:14 death+hades are thrown in LOF. They cant be tormented, since they are not beings. The LOF is a place of utter total and complete destruction.
When man sinned Eden died. The world collapsed and caved in around him. (Not literally, that is a figure of speech). Instead of living in a garden he must toil and suffer. Paradise was lost. Eden was dead. The tree of life was lost. The opportunity to live forever vanished. Death reigns supreme.
“Sheol” is used 65x in bible. It is used in the poetic books of Job, Ps, Prov+ Eccles most commonly. If you read those fairly literally with parallel equivalency of sheol=pit=grave, then it appears that “sheol” means the grave. Not a metaphysical location for dead people who are alive.
The concept of life after death, another words consciousness after death, only became a possibility with the resurrection of Jesus.
Jesus is the “firstborn from the dead” (Col 1:18). He is the “archegon” of life (Acts 3:15). That Greek word means originator, pioneer, author, inventor. Life means sentience existence. Thinking is a key feature of life. If you can think then you are alive. I reject sheol/AB as an OT location for conscious dead people, because it contradicts the gospel that JESUS is prime.
Try reading this one: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/enoch_and_elijah.htm
Before the resurrection of Messiah, all people simply died. Even after the Res if you don’t belong to Him, you will remain dead–ie:without thought, work or knowledge(Ecc 9:10). This fundamentally precludes any consciousness in sheol. Do you believe that literally?
Patrick, maybe I’m confused on your position. You most recently said that you agree with soul sleep. Everyone awaits the resurrection. Time ceases. No torment, no purgatory.
But previously in post #67, you said that Luke 16 is not a parable, you thought it is a literal real life account. In Lk16 hades is described as a place of torment. Richman and Abraham are not locked in time. They are talking and making decisions.
Time is a measure of change. For time to cease, means that you are frozen, nothing changes. Thinking is a process and it requires time. So in Lk 16 AB/hades time is running in the story.
Of course, if you’ve read my previous posts, I think it is a parable about money (see post #37).
Do you think the dead non-martyr saints are conscious or not? How do you feel about the lost? Conscious or dead?
I agree with Patrick as to rapture timing. There is a full length study about that on my website. And you have correctly understood my understanding of Israel and Church. I subscribe to Olive Tree theology. The Church has been grafted in so that we are Israel, but never a total replacement.
Here is something else you said confused me: “I am not a pre-tribber … Messiah is coming back to regenerate our dead bodies, with our souls in tow behind Him.” Messiah is coming from heaven right? You reference souls in tow from 1Thes 3:13 and 1 Thes 4:14. The dead come WITH him. But you don’t think the dead are in heaven? Does Jesus make a pit stop in AB before appearing at the Parousia to pick up the dead souls in tow? Before you try to answer that, consider Heb 1:13 which is quoting from Ps 110:1. Jesus is currently at the right hand of God’s throne. The Throne is in heaven, not AB. Do you still contend that Jesus the human man is omnipresent? Is God’s throne omnipresent too? (that’s very non literal.) I think the best interpretation is that the dead souls of believers are in heaven with Jesus awaiting the last trump muster call for resurrection.
Isnt is funny brother that your not a pre tribber because there are too many conflicting passages am I am a pretribber because for me it is the only scenario that ties everything together literally. When I read the book of revelation there is no doubt for me it is a book of judgement with God pouring out His wrath on an unbelieving world. I find it hard to reconcile that God would provide a place of refuge for Israel during this time of His burning wrath as is indicated in
Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
and not provide a haven for His elect church.
I personally believe believe Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’S anger.
which ties in with Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
I know you’ll be aware of these verses and there are many more the seem only to back it up for me. If I am wrong I will be here for the worst period ever in earths history and am in agreement with the Lord when He says
Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
but rather
Php 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
Take care Patrick and remain…
teachable
I think we should all fully agree with Bill’s recent posts. We should all remain teachable. Each of us can learn new stuff from the other guy. None of us has it all figured out. Especially on these eschatological matters of the intermediate state. We each currently think what we think because of the study and learning and other life influences that we’ve had up till this point. Hopefully we all remain humble enough to change our minds when confronted with scriptural data conflicting with our ideas. I too changed all this stuff about 10yrs ago during a study of the resurrection and eternal life. I decided that nobody has life without Jesus. Call it fruity, it is definitely contra tradition, but I’m yet to discover how its unbiblical. The ramifications are schema changing. When I truly accepted Jesus alone as prime factor of life, then no one before the Res had afterlife, because afterlife is a type of life-not bodily but still life. This is soul sleep(or more accurately soul dead). The difference between my view and yall’s idea of AB, is that I see the soul to be unconscious, w/o sentience, w/o life. From what I glean, I think Bill believes in a dull conscious existence in AB. Patrick’s idea might be closer, but he is distinguishing heavenly life vrs soul sleep based on martyrdom of the individual, instead of the resurrection of Jesus.
My platform pivots, rotates around the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the exciting part: after the resurrection of Jesus everything changed. This is glorious, because the soul of believers I think per my studies , is quickened. We are reborn spiritually. We once were dead, but now we live. That is not just emotional hype. I’m taking it literally in the spiritman.
However, excited as I may get over this, I realize that I don’t have all the answers. If someone can show me that life doesn’t mean sentient consciousness and death doesn’t mean extinguishing life (as CMP said in post57) I’m still open to learning.
Bill, I fully agree that God will provide a place of refuge during the GTrib for the church. But I see the church as organically part of Israel, so when the woman is protected in the wilderness, it is the church being protected. National unsaved ethnic Israel will not receive God’s protection and favor until they receive Jesus Christ. People who blaspheme God by saying that Jesus is NOT the Christ have been cut off from the family of God. They are anathema [cursed-1Cor 16:22]. The word means dedicated for destruction.
I think dispensationalism is making you see this dualistically. Church and Israel are one. Although much of ethnic Israel has been temporarily cut off. This is not replacement theology, as they will certainly be regrafted in the future. The woman in the wilderness is us.
Try this link for protection during the tribulation: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/Rapture%2010.htm
Patrick, you are motivating me to go back and reread Eze31 repeatedly. Thank you. More observations upon a close read:
Eze 31:15 ‘deep’ is Heb word ‘tehowm.’ It means depths of the ocean or subterranean aquifers. God closed the aquifers over sheol. God held back the rivers of sheol and dammed up the waters. For me this is poetic, not literal. The grave is only about 6′ deep. No one is ever buried under the aquifers.
But with a literal interpretation: are there rivers in sheol? Are these physical rivers or spiritual rivers? I’m trying not to be sarcastic, but the notion of rivers in the underworld sounds more like pagan myth (Odysseus crossing river Styx) then Bible.
Eze 31:16 Notice the NATIONS quake-plural. In antediluvian period before tower Babel, there was only 1 single human nation-not plural (Gen 11:6).
Did the trees of Eden physically go the AB? Or did the “soul” of the tree go the netherworld? Do trees have a soul? I guess if the trees are physically there then the rivers had better be physical too.
I understand your pre-flood Assyria theory. It is important for this tree theory to work. From Gen 3:24 driven out of Eden till flood and fall of mythic proto-Assyria is over 1000yrs probably. Where were the trees of Eden during that time period? 1000yrs is a long time for humans to not discover it. Maybe the angel was still posted there with a sword? If regular Assyria is to be understood, then the entire tree theory has serious problems. How could the trees survive through the flood? All of Levant was well settled, how could people have not found the original location for over 5000yrs?
I’m trying to ask serious questions and not be sarcastic. But if we want to be literal, then we must also be scientific and logical.
Eze31:16 “all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon.” This says that Eden =Lebanon. Do you propose that the garden of Eden was in Lebanon?
Jay & Bill,
Thanks for all the comments. You know, it is very difficult to hold to the AB topic without going much wider. As such, in trying to keep as close to the topic as possible, I have only caused confusion. My apologies. Let me try to remove some confusion. As Jay I believe you both would agree, Jesus (Yeshua) is our life. There is no other salvation but through Him. The Spirit sanctifies us. Gives us truth. Teaches us and helps us to walk in Him daily. This is (in part) why we should remain calm and pleasant with one another, enjoying our fellowship since we agree in the gospel message – even under topics that really excite us, such as these we are discussing now.
We are going to die physically one day. All spirits of men return back to God who gave them (saved and unsaved alike). Our spirits are our life, but have nothing to do with our salvation. The soul (I still struggle with comprehending the soul), which I believe to be our personality with all its strengths and weaknesses, is neither alive, or dead based on what I read in the Scriptures. Abraham and Samuel speak, and yet are without their spirit. Currently, my best guess about spirit soul and body is like a molecule (analogy): The protron (+) is the spirit, our life; the electron (-) is our flesh, which is now in opposition to our spirit; both proton and electron are surrounding a neutron (our soul), which is the all-important item that defines who we are. Souls are as diverse as planets in the universe. The soul has some ability to function on its own, but needs the other two to comprehend anything like time, touch, taste, etc… The rich man experiences lack in Hades because he is deprived and awake (yet dead!). Lazarus nevers speaks, but is no longer suffering. Abraham is an enigma, because it is his bosom (don’t ask me!). He’s the father of our faith.
When we die, our flesh is buried and corrupts. Our spirits return to God. Our souls (as believers) go to one of two places – either the altar of souls (based on a decision from God whether we laid our life down for a good testimony), or AB, which is Paradise, the garden of Eden. Eden was sent down to the center of the earth as a housing for righteous souls, not because God judges plants, nor so souls could eat of the tree of life, etc… It is a temporary housing, much like that of the the Feast of Booths (Tabernacles, or Succoth). Midway through the Tribulation, at the 7th trump, after 7 seals and 6 trumps, and yet before the 7 bowls, and at the time the mark of the beast will begin being issued, the resurrection will happen. Souls will depart AB (Hades (not the grave) where is thy victory & the gates of Hades will not prevail… ); graves will be opened at the Lord’s descent with a shout. Believers in AB will stand to be confirmed that they will walk in the Spirit, being dead to sin and filled with the Spirit to overflowing. This is the end of our salvation – life from the dead – the part that Yeshua made possible for us all. But note that salvation is also eternal (which is much less mentioned), in the sense that without God, who holds all things together, everything would dissolve. Jay is correct in believing we are Israel, and that God’s hand will protect us, just as in the days of Noah, or the Egyptian plagues, or any other examples from the Scriptures. “Keep you from the hour” = “Protect you within a sphere of safety”. A “keep” is a “fortress”. He is our shield, high tower, rock, etc… There is no conflict. The 3.5 years between 7th trump and 1st bowl is not God’s wrath, but Satan’s wrath, who will have been cast down to earth with his angels, having but a short time. We, the resurrected, will be gathered to the 7 churches initially and given the same instructions as that in the 7 letters in the Revelation. Our great commission still…
stands, with the emphasis on reaching unbelieving Jews, who are about to meet their Messiah. The Church is Ephraim (study him in the OT, noting also that Ephraim is not present in the 144,000 of Israel (Rev.). Jacob, while forming a cross with his arms, prophecied that Ephraim would become a “melo hagoim”, which means a “multitude of Gentile nations”. The prophets, speaking for God, say, “Ephraim is My firstborn”, etc… We are one with Israel, but Jesus, who will be leading the resurrected saints out of the northern territory (Jer.) in a cloud of glory (just like He did in the Exodus), like a Shepherd leading His sheepfold, providing all our needs miraculously, will direct us to the places of ministry while on our way to Jerusalem. Some within the flock will fall away, being found false. These are the foolish virgins (parable), false confessors who never learned to walk as Yeshua taught, seeds sown in thorny or stoney ground, washed hogs who return to wallowing, dogs returning to their own vomit, spots, wrinkles, blemishes, etc… all analogies, per the Scriptures own words – sorry Jay, but I only apply syntax as per specified – if I tell you earthy things and you do not understand, how can I tell you heavenly things? – Joh.3). Many of these traiterous defectors will become false Messiahs, as predicted. To understand the resurrection is to understand Messiah’s ministery on earth. Power will be given us like unto that which He had. We will be tempted on all points based on former life weaknesses. We must abide in the Spirit, using our power only for the spiritual needs of others. For the first time in history the Church will be unified in the Spirit, which is commanded. At His coming on the clouds out of the east (the sign of the Son of Man) every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him (that’s us). He will save His Bride from the beast, and we will all be caught up to Him in the air.
Hope this helps you understand my interpretation.
As I said before, the big picture is in Adam: perfect (filled with the Spirit/dead to sin), until tested; found missing the mark because of ignorance about evil; experiences evil – gains discernment; dies trusting in the Messiah (non-martyr death, unlike Abel); rises in the resurrection to his feet on the earth (now knowing good vs. evil, unlike before); is tested once again (no longer in ignorance), being again filled with the Spirit/dead to sin; is found to be perfect, or imperfect, based on his choice of who he will serve (God, or self); meets the Lord at His coming who will open heaven to him, or destroy his soul in the Lake of Fire.
Jay,
I agree about Asshur, but the mention of the name does not necessarily preclude that it is the first time someone was named Asshur.
A pre-Flood Assyria is not a gnostic concept anymore than the land of Nod. We know about the same amount of information about either. The very passage gives us the historical background otherwise lacking.
The holy angels and souls of the rightous martyrs are the only saints that return with the Lord. We who resurrected, and who are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet Messiah and the martyred saints and angels in the air. Group hugs and high fives!
Yeshua ia not just a man, but also shares the Godhead. This makes Him Omnipresent. I would hope that you do not believe Yeshua is merely a man! He set aside His glory to come down, and did not consider it robbery.
I believe that the souls of the dead, righteous, non-martyred, saints are asleep in AB, just as the OT indicates. Lazarus never speaks.
I am confused about the rich man speaking. The OT states what you are saying, that the dead know nothing. This indicates (also as you have said) may indicate a paradigm in the underworld, but not with the righteous souls, but the unrighteous. Note Isa.14 – the souls in the Pit are stirred up and speak. Sheol stirs them up, right? They therefore can be roused under the proper conditions. What do you think? (Hope you won’t say Isa.14 is poetry and therefore not valid in a literal sense).
I agree with all you say about Israel and the Church being one, with this caviot: in the resurrection, the Church (being comprised of both believing Jews & Gentiles) will know her Messiah, but the remaining Jews who will believe will be treated distinctly until they do believe. The manner of protection will therefore be distinct for each. Also, this does not mean that saints will not be martyred (beheaded) during the Tribulation. The promises to the Church are to be shielded from God’s wrath, not Satan’s.
Jay,
Sheol & the grave are distinct. “Deeper than sheol, who can know it?” and like passages state that sheol is at least beneath the moorings of the mountains. It is the abode of departed soul, as referenced repeatedly in the Scriptures (You will not leave My soul in Sheol, nor allow Your Holy One to see corruption…”)
Speculating, Eden sat upon pillars that made it stand in the waters (of the sea) and out of the waters (of the Deep). When the fountains of the earth were broken up (Gen.7?), this was precipitated (no pun intended) by the sinking of Eden, which later caused the earth to literally blow apart, releasing the Deep and thereby covering all the high hills by 18 cubits. With the sinking of Eden, landmasses converged to cover Eden and keep the spinning world in balance (I covered the Deep at its descent – Eze.31). This caused the cataclysm of the Deluge. The converging of landmasses formed many mountain ranges (what science calls the older ranges because they appear to be heavily eroded). While these mountains formed the violent waters of the Deluge washed much away. Later, in Peleg’s day (2 gens after the Tower incident) God separated the earth, which formed all the newer looking mountains. That’s just my speculation – I wasn’t there, but it makes sense to me.
Rivers in sheol? Trees need water, but I don’t know about rivers.
There were evidently nations before the Deluge. I don’t see an issue with that, seeing the “bene elohim” and their offspring would have almost certainly have formed nations. Sons of Cain vs. sons of Seth, etc…
I believe only men are said to have souls, not trees.
It is quite possible that the 4 angels loosed in the Revelation are the same cherubim God posted to guard the tree of life. Note Euphrates is in proximity to both. Can the tree of life die? I think Eden may rise again, according to Isa. and Eze. Another reason to believe AB = Paradise, because Eden rises back to the face of the earth (Rev.2:7).
Thanks Patrick, You have a good attitude. You are definitely correct that Yeshua is our life. As you know, I take this very seriously. Life is a precious gift of God. Many people are flippant and caviler about its exclusivity with Yeshua. Life according to Webster means “the ability to function; the force of animate beings; organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism and reaction to stimuli.” Another words as far as people are concerned-thinking is the baseline of life. If a being has the ability to function thought, animate its mind, and react to mental stimulus, then by definition that being is alive. This is true for spiritual beings (angels, demons, deceased believers) and physical beings (all people, animals, plants). Afterlife is defined as spiritual life after we bodily die. Afterlife is a type of life. Spirits can be alive just like bodies can be alive.
As you said Yeshua is LIFE. Acts 3:15 Author is a good translation. Jesus wrote the book! The Greek word is archegon. It means pioneer, inventor, the very first beginning. Jesus is the inventor of life. He holds the exclusive patent. Nobody owns the product that Jesus invented without His blessing and consent. Jesus is the pioneer toward afterlife. Sentient existence in the spirit realm is a type of life. As pioneer, Jesus blazed the trail through the thicket of forest. No one had been there before Him. He was an unprecedented explorer. A conquistador for He conquered all and gave us LIFE.
My repetitive point is that before the ministry of Jesus, nobody had spiritual life. He is the prime factor of existence.
The distinction between body/soul/spirit has caused much confusion. MHO here: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/Body%20soul%20spirit.htm
In a nutshell: body is flesh and bones- no debate on that. Plants, animals and people all have a body. It is purely physical life.
Soul (Hebrew nephesh/Greek psyche) should best be understood as “being.” Personality, as you said, is very good. I would add mind, emotions, thoughts, will power. Animals and people have soul. Plants do not, they have no thoughts and are only body.
Soul is the software, body is the hardware. Soul is the control panel for body. The body allows the soul(mind) to interact with its environment.
Spirit is a non-physical parallel structure analogous to the body unique to people. Animals do not have a spirit. Angels and demons are spirits, so it is similar to theirs. It operates in the spiritual realm, which is like a fourth dimension, another realm, but very real. Bodies operate in the material realm, hence spirits operate in the spiritual realm. The spirit is a vessel, like the body, but non material. The both are vessels that hold soul/mind /personality.
The spirit allows the soul(mind) to interact with the spiritual environment. God is a spirit, so the only way to communicate with God is through the spirit.
Now the confusing part. In English our words are mixed up. “Soul” is biblically used for the mind (Gk-pysche), but in English we call the immaterial aspect the soul. What we call “soul” is more correctly spirit. There is a total difference between soul and spirit. Even on this post, we have been playing loose with the terminology of “soul.”
Without a mind you have no self awareness or existential reality. Body and spirit are vessels that hold the mind.
My theology is that the spirit of unsaved is dead. The spirit before Christ’s resurrection was dead.
Soul is mind, spirit is immaterial. Read link above if interested further.
Thank you for a direct answer to many of those tough questions. Gen 4:16 nod should not be capitalized. They should have just translated the Heb word ‘wandering.’ Same word used in Ps 56:8. Cain entered the land of wandering. He was a nomad. Homeless hobos don’t settle down and have cities, so transliterating the word into a place name of an established settlement was a mistake.
It seems odd that you think non-martyred saints are unconscious, but wicked sinners have mental faculties. Why are the wicked blessed with knowledge and understanding of self awareness, but not the righteous? The wicked are snuffed out(Prov 13:9)
Yes, you called it; Isa 14:9 is poetry. If reading ESV, notice all that white margin surrounding the stanzas. Kings in the grave do not really have a throne. They do not talk or have wisdom (Ecc 9:10). Isa 14 and Ecc 9 are in direct contradiction if you insist on wooden literalness of both. Remember I believe that death has been overturned by the resurrection of Jesus for ALL who partake of his flesh.
Notice also Isa 14:18- sheol is paralleled with the tomb.
I find it odd that you think Lazarus was sleeping. It says that he was on Ab’s bosom/chest. This posture requires an elbow to prop up into that place. Does Abraham have a dead/sleeping guy laying on his chest? The expression is derived from table manners of the ancient near east, possibly tangential but non contentious article here involving table manners and historical context: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/anointed_by_sinful_woman.htm
Dives (Latin for Richman) apparently thought that Laz was awake and sentient, for he asked for Laz to be sent on an errand. Ab said ”No can do, but Laz is now comforted here.” Again this seems to point to sentience of Laz. Point being in the parable, I think Laz is awake. However, remember I think it is a PARABLE. My point is that I see an unfortuitous distinction in your system where the wicked are conscious and the saints are not.
Jay,
Do you believe Adam had spiritual life prior to the fall?
You gave me some food for thought regarding body/spirit/soul. I meant to say before that (using my molecule analogy) that the body (-) is dead, the spirit (+) is the life, and the soul (neutral) is neither dead or alive, which is difficult for me to comprehend.
I would personally capitalize Nod, as I believe it was a place. Cain “dwelt” in the land of Nod. Note despite God’s pronouncement that he should be a wanderer and a vagabond, Cain went right out and built the city of Enoch (Gen.4:17, named after his son). He did not wander, but lived in the land of Nod.
Only the unrighteous souls speak, except in the case of Samuel, who was disturbed by witchcraft, and Abraham (the anamoly, it being his place). I could be wrong that the righteous sleep, but that’s what the NT always indicates. I don’t understand how people can just ignore that. My thoughts about the righteous sleeping, while the unrighteous are awake, run as follows (we are getting a little deeper now and this is NOT Scriptural, but my own reasoning – so it’s probably wrong!): Anyway, there are two basic types of souls at rest in AB; 1) true confessors of Messiah, and 2) false confessors of Messiah. This is based on the free gift of salvation (life from the dead) being an irrevocable gift from God. Once you have it you can’t lose it. 1) rests because he receives comfort in so doing, while 2) is kept comfortable so that he will not be in a repentant state of mind when the resurrection comes upon him. 2) is a Pharisee type that Yeshua spoke strongly against (those who think they see but are really blind). These are the future defectors from the faith. God wants them reserved for His wrath. The go tthrough the Tribulation unprotected, miss the rapture, receive the bowls and are then thrown in the Lake of Fire. God doesn’t want these awake and thinking repentance. Also, righteous souls rest because there are both Christians…