I remember when I was young, I was taught that there was a place called “Abraham’s Bosom.” The way it was explained to me made perfect sense at the time. You go to heaven if you trust in Christ. You go to hell if you don’t. People go to heaven because Christ’s atonement on the cross paid for their sins. God cannot be in the presence of sin (Hab. 1:13). Therefore, those who are covered by Christ’s death can be in the presence of God. Those who are not, cannot. 

So far so good? But there is a problem: what about all God’s people who came before Christ’s death? What about Abraham, Moses, David, and Isaiah? According to the theory, they were not yet covered by Christ blood. Conclusion: they, before Christ’s death, were not in the presence of God. They were somewhere else waiting for their sins to be covered.

This “somewhere else” was known as “Abraham’s Bosom.” Think “Protestant Purgatory” or something like that. Abraham’s Bosom existed as a holding tank for God’s people until Christ’s death on the cross. Once the atonement was made, Abraham’s Bosom it was vacated as all its occupants were ushered into God’s presence in heaven.

The name “Abraham’s Bosom” came from the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16. “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried” (Luke 16:22). Notice, this parable was given before Christ’s atonement. Therefore, people have said that this must be the place, between heaven and hell, that pre-Cross saints went to.

Why there is no such thing as Abraham’s Bosom

As nice and tidy as that might sound theologically and biblically, it does not really work. There is no such place as Abraham’s Bosom.

First, the idea that God cannot be in the presence of sin is untenable.

The passage in Hab. 1:13 simply means that God is too pure to approve sin. It has nothing to do with sin or evil being in God’s presence. Here are some of the reasons:

  • After the fall, we find God walking in the Eden with Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:8).
  • Satan himself can be in God’s presence. In Job 1:6, we see Satan presenting himself before God (see also 1 Chron 18:18-21; Rev. 12:10).
  • Christians, who are still sinners (1 John 1:8), are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Obviously the Holy Spirit must be able to be in the presence of sin.
  • Christ, God incarnate, was in the presence of sin the whole time he walked the earth (John 1:14). He was even carried in the womb of a sinner!

Second, the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus does not teach that “Abraham’s Bosom” is a separate heaven.

In the parable, Christ is confronting the religious leaders’ bad theology. They were lovers of money (Luke 16:14). They believed that being rich and healthy was a sign that God was on your side. If you were poor and sick then God was not with you. In the parable, the rich man, whom all the Pharisees thought was the best Jew with great rewards waiting for him in heaven, found himself in torment in Hell. The poor sick man, who was, in the mind of the Pharisees, a bad Jew, was ushered by the angels to Abraham’s “side” or “bosom.” The idea is not ontological (dealing with a physical place), but relational. To be at one’s side or bosom represented the closest place of fellowship one could have with another. The one who the Pharisees believed was not a good child of Abraham winds up at the closest place of fellowship that there is—Abraham’s bosom. Christ was being rhetorical. The rich man is unnamed and forgotten forever. Lazarus’ name means “God helps”. The rich man dies and is buried. The poor man dies and is carried by the angels. The rich man goes to hell, “far away” from Abraham (Luke 16:23). The poor man goes to Abraham’s side, in heaven.


Saints in the Old Testament did not need a special dispensation. God can be in the presence of sin. If he could not be in the presence of sin, we are in big trouble. Nevertheless, they were forgiven in anticipation of Christ’s atonement. When David, Abraham, Moses, and other Old Testament saints died, they immediately went into the presence of God on the bases of Christ’s shed blood, though yet future.

Romans 3:24-26
“Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”

C Michael Patton
C Michael Patton

C. Michael Patton is the primary contributor to the Parchment and Pen/Credo House Blog. He has been in ministry for nearly twenty years as a pastor, author, speaker, and blogger. Th.M. Dallas Theological Seminary (2001), president of Credo House Ministries and Credo Courses, author of Now that I'm a Christian (Crossway, 2014) Increase My Faith (Credo House, 2011), and The Theology Program (Reclaiming the Mind Ministries, 2001-2006), host of Theology Unplugged, and primary blogger here at Parchment and Pen. But, most importantly, husband to a beautiful wife and father to four awesome children. Michael is available for speaking engagements. Find him everywhere: Find him everywhere

    335 replies to "The Myth of “Abraham’s Bosom”"

    • patrick


      Num 16:22; 27:16; Prov 16:2 … use the plural ‘spirits’: Ezr.1:3-5 states that God moved the spirits of men to go & rebuild Him a post-Exile house, or contribute money to the cause. Did He make them asthmatic until they departed/contribed? There are 2 many refed OT breathing disorders by your view – what’s the sig? It also seems odd that God should foreordain the mere word for natural breath (ruach) be equated to His HS! Standing back & looking at this (in my opinion) should cause us to say, “Well, either there is a direct connect between a man’s metaphys spirit & his breath, or God is repeatedly confusing understanding on the issue.” Life isn’t natural. No, it’s supernat. Do we agree that life doesn’t come by nat processes? If supernat, then by God, who is Spirit. Adam was animated into life that came from God’s breath. No doubt the HS, BUT after Adam rebelled, he didn’t cease to breath until 900+ yrs later! He lost his glory/eyes were opened right away, but he still understood GOOD. No HS, no breath, no good? No! Something endured a while longer. Man’s ruach made it possible for man to remain a living soul. &, even today, animation ceases when the breath departs. Coincidence? No. Any man’s spirit (little s) is a supernat force, that causes him to have locomotion so that his soul can comprehend the world, both good & evil, for as long as the supernat spirit-breath abides w/ him.

      Prov 16:2 YHWH weighs the breaths (pl). Not air from respiration, but … You are accountable for what you say … For God to weigh an immat metaphys spirit would be silly … NLT +NIV have good trans -God weighs the motives: You mean you have a trans that removes the God-inspired word & replaces it w/ 1 that matches your desired meaning. Only folks w/ itching ears would alter God’s words. You are only following man’s interp, not God’s words. Who is the One who has it all figured out correctly?

    • patrick


      #221 Heb 12:23 … assembly of the firstbornS is plural: Ok, it’s plural and there’s an assembly, as you say. I agree. But the passage reads, “But you have come to Mt Zion & to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly & church of the firstborn(s) who are REGISTERED in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, …” The first group that “you have come to” is a company of angels – multiple spirits; the second group listed is the church of the firstborns who are “registered” (written in a public record – Book of Life? – not currently staying) in heaven. Hmmm. I wonder where they are now? For you see, nothing is being said of souls, as you say. What souls are referenced here? None. Where are they?? Why aren’t they there? Currently, this appears to be a 100% spirit place. Paraphrasing, the passage MIGHT be better understood to say, ” But you have come to … the heavenly J, where there are currently abiding angels (spirits), to the place where the souls of the church are registered in the Book of Life, to the place where God the Judge (Spirit) of all currently is, to the place where the spirits of the righteous who have been made perfect through the HS now reside, …” The term “the spirits of just men” is “the spirits of (Gk) dikaios (the righteous)”. So I will ask you again: Whose spirits have been made perfect (COMPLETE – like through a union w/ the HS)? It certainly cannot be angels, because God does not take hold of such. That leaves men, or animals (which would just be very strange to apply, given the context of the chapter). “YOU have come …” Who has come? The context indicates those who are accounted sons of God, & they have come to hear Yeshua, the Mediator of the New Covenant (vs.24) …

    • patrick

      … But then you state: “God’s plan of redemption of these many HUMAN SPIRITS, now found innocent through Jesus, is fulfilled and complete.” What!? Many human spirits? You?? So mens spirits were dead (which to me is oxymoronic), but have been made alive (not “made complete”, as it reads, but evidently “raised from the dead”). Personally, I do not believe spirits can die, they merely leave the body/soul & return to God. But let’s pursue that. Where do the dead spirits of men reside while souls are still in the body? How is a spirit raised from the dead if it has always been dead? You couldn’t exactly call it being revived, resurrected, redeemed, because these all imply prior life. If it has never been alive until the Spirit comes, then what is the connection between the HS and a man’s spirit who has received Him? Is the HS like the stork that brings a baby spirit to man? Is it born again, or just being born for the first time? Such a man must enter into NEW life, not the ONLY life. The Spirit comes with a bit of Himself? But then there is nothing to be made perfect (complete) – is there? It sounds like a grafting out of the HS, as opposed to a grafting. Please go over this w/ me again. I thought I understood you, but greatly doubt that now.

    • patrick


      I finally got around to you on my backlog of responses. Welcome to the discussion. I think the Scriptures have a lot to say about the spiritual realm(s), but as I believe Jay said before, from man’s perspective, it’s like trying to glimpse something through a distorted piece of glass. I would basically agree with your 3 concentric realms, assuming the outermost circle you describe is eternity. In that we are told that the High & Lofty One inhabits eternity – Isa.57:15 – yet we often see angels and hosts about Him, I IMAGINE that He is sitting on a throne in the 3rd heavenly, while His (the Father’s) mind occupies the only aperture into eternity. I have come to understand eternity as the mind of God. But the manifestation of God must be in the 3rd heaven, where there’s an innumerable company of spirits, even evil ones, such as Satan, who stand before the Father to accuse the saints, as refed in Job 1 and Rev.12:10. Eternity is, and always will be, Sovereign ground, where God has absolute control; the 3rd heavenly is like a neutral zone that God enforces control over, and the universe is a territory occupied where open warfare is raging. Actually, I take the earth & sky as the 1st heaven, our solar system & beyond as the 2nd, the 3rd is beyond that, and eternity is not a heaven at all. Inside the 1st is another inner realm, broken into sub-compartments, designated for captives (living angels/dead souls). All within (even Christians) will continue to be detained until the last days.

      The mansions you speak of, to me, are New J dwellings Christians will receive when Messiah returns to receive us to Himself, not when we die. “When you die you go to heaven” is never stated explicitly in Scriptures, which, if it were true, would be a huge oversight in my opinion. Special terminologies are always applied to post-death Christian destinations, which need careful consideration.

    • patrick


      Patrick, I feel that you have taken 1Pet 4:6 out of context … a speed read of the entire book: I will try and do so tonight and let you know.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, thanks for the personal background info, It is always good to understand with whom we are visiting. Many of my personal details are on my website, about me page. Click my hyperlinked name in this post. #244 Quench- back on my #216, I said that a debt is NOT quenched. Debts for sin must be paid in full either by Jesus or by yourself. Quench means to prematurely put out. Debts are exacted, never quenched. I believe that God is fair for the penalty for sin. A 75yr life does not incur infinite debt. It is some finite amount. You should read my book.

      Israel as a nation will always be God’s people corporately, but individual Israelites live or die based on their own righteousness (imputed by Xp). Thus the anger ceasing quotes are valid. Many Israelites will be destroyed (Heb 3:17).

      Hypothetically, to play along, per #245: pride is always a bad thing. We are created from dust and stand before the eternal majesty of omnipotence. Pridefully considering yourself anything bigger than a spec of ash is presumptuous in His presence.

      #246- I think we agree on the born again thing. We are born again NOW, but perfectly/completely re-born again at the BODY resurrection.
      Which brings us back to my original observation: If we are born again now, what aspect is born? To be born means to come forth into existence. My point is that the spirit is ontologically born.
      Agreed on Shirley McLain and a piece of God. I withdraw that comment and thought from #218. The spirit aspect of man’s tripartite nature is man’s spirit. Although it is without sin and perfect. Only believers have a spirit, unsaved are totally without spiritual understanding.

      In #256 to Gary, you spoke of Satan currently be in heaven accusing the saints. I don’t think so. Try this and comment (you too Gary)

    • patrick


      1Pet 4:6 out of context: I read 1Pet. In terms of your ref to me believing the verse is in ref to pre-Flood nephalim, I never meant to imply that. My post #221 states “spirits of antediluvians”. Upon thinking on that, I suppose you could include the neph in that class of people, so sorry for the confusion. I take antediluvian to mean pure-bred men, not nephs. In that light I do not believe I am out of context w/ the vs. You said so many good things in your post, so let me comment. 1Pet. is about suffering, but I might add it is more rightly about showing how confirmation of salvation (both to the Christian himself & to the world observing him) is best demonstrated through patient sufferings for Christ. Multiple examples are given. In that you know we are called to suffer for Him I greatly rejoice! 1Pet. is about suffering while we await His return. Yes! As a matter of fact this book takes you into the res of the dead. We will see Him come, and suffer for His sake until He comes, being dead to sin & having all His 1st Advent powers – Joh.14:12. Every person will be judged. Yes! And, to defend my contextual interp of 1P4:6, that includes the antediluvians (no nephs). They had received no law from God – Rom.5:12-14, Rom.5:20. The anted’s had to have sin defined so that they would be brought under condemnation. The anted’s also needed the gospel proclaimed, so that they would have a chance to escape the judgment. These guys may be bad, but no law, no condemnation. The res will be their judgment. Can they walk in the Spirit? Our judgment is the res. I’ve never met anyone who understood that. What works you do will determine which camp you find your way into (C’s or AC’s). When Yeshua returns there will be no question – you will either have a mark, or you won’t. I do not follow your Acts 10:42 parallel – the 2 phrases refed are not the same, although I don’t nec. disagree with your interp of what Peter meant.

    • Jay Altieri

      You know it is getting hard to find our old posts for reference of what we are debating. So I’ll try to include post # for easy crosschecking.
      Remember back in #113 we thought that we were getting toward the close of this topic. What a joke!

      Heb 12:23 (#231+254). I’m ok with registration in BookofLife. Thanks. You are using this verse to say that spirits return to God in heaven, but souls await the resurrection. By your theory even spirits of wicked return to God in heaven. But they don’t get registered? Where are the wicked spirits? Don’t they have a large assembly too? How come only spirits of just men are here?
      Then you said spirits “not currently staying”, I thought your idea was that ALL spirits go to heaven?
      You correctly note that Heb 12:23 doesn’t mention souls in heaven, but Rev 6:9 does have souls in heaven. I know that you think it is only those who gave their life for testimony of Jesus, so only a few limited first class souls currently make the cut. 2nd class souls must wait?
      However, as you point out “the spirits of (Gk) dikaios” is ALL redeemed by Xp. Not just martyrs (4th C definition- the Greek word means witnesses). So are only martyrs =righteous? We’re not righteous too?

      I don’t think God plays favorites. Our FAITH gets us into heaven, not our actions or which century we were born into. My point is that ALL spirits (and souls although not mentioned in this verse) of believers are in heaven before the resurrection. Unbelievers don’t have a spirit, so their soul(mind) is in the grave awaiting judgment.

      You ask if our spirit(small s) is a new creation and without sin, then how is it being made perfect in Heb 12:23? Does that imply that it was previously imperfect?
      I don’t see a problem with the new creation being perfect to start with and being called made perfect. That is how it was made.
      Heb 10:14 we are prefect NOW, even before the resurrection our righteousness as imputed by Xp is complete.

    • Jay Altieri

      #255 Perhaps we still have a misunderstanding about new birth. I thought I was clear, but apparently not so. Sorry for bungling the words. Adam’s spirit died. No man ever since had an individual spirit at birth(save Jesus). Upon Good Confession (GC), we are given a divine gift of new spirit. I’ve never said that the spirit is re-born, for it is the first time that particular human spirit ever existed. It is a New Creation per Paul. Jesus calls it a new birth. Peter calls it born again. Not that the spirit is born a 2nd time, but that the person is born a 2nd time.

      You asked “Where do the dead spirits of men reside while souls are still in the body?” Spirit don’t exist for unbeliever, so they don’t “reside”anywhere. For the believer, they reside in the heavenly realm and inside your body, cohabiting with the HS.

      “How is a spirit raised from the dead if it has always been dead?” Correct, it is a new creation(Gal. 6:15, 2 Cor 5:17), something brought into existence (Rom 4:17). It is made alive (quickened) by the HS (Eph 2:1).
      Dead does not necessarily mean raised up. Stone idols are dead, but they never had life.
      You could (and I sometimes do) speak of the GConfess as a metaphorical resurrection from the dead of mankind’s spirit. Corporately, but not individually.

      You are correct that my 231 could have been worded better. The spirit is a gift. It is a new creation in the image of God’s HS, both of which are given to us as an token of our inheritance. It is born afresh for that individual, but reborn for mankind. It was perfect (without fault) when it was created. The plan of redemption is complete since Jesus has sat down Heb 10:12. Project complete.

      152/176 Going way back: Please explain mabool as a “spirit catcher.”

    • patrick


      A refute to … dead people … evangelized post mortem: Rom.4:15 & Rom.5:13 require that the anted’s be under some form of law, or they can’t be charged w/ sins, & therefore would escape God’s final judgment. How do you handle that if they never received law? Only Adam trespassed God’s law pre-Mabool. The anted’s are, I admit, unusual when it comes to treatment, but God pre-judged them based on laws that had not been fore-delivered to them. Unusual. That’s why their souls were in Sheol somehow still retaining their spirits. That’s about as detailed as the Scriptures get about it. I won’t consider doctored translations that replace/add/paraphrase. These change what is clearly written into another message, because men think God can’t choose His words very well. That’s a big deal, & should raise no small amount of trepidation for those who follow such lines. “What God meant to say was…” Whoa!

      To say the vs means there were living men who got saved, but later died, is entirely out of the context of the verse. Why would the statement be appropriate at that point? Peter here is stating that even though the anted’s (no law/understood no gospel) won’t escape the final judgment, even they still have hope. We ALL die as wicked sinners because that’s our wages. Duh! Messiah’s work redeems from death. How will He redeem the anted’s based on their situation of no law/gospel? Peter addresses this quite nicely. They retained their spirits in Sheol. Unusual, but necessary. It may seem nice & fuzzy to believe Peter was offering his readers some comfort over Christians who were already dead, & people who were wondering where Yeshua was, but look what that vs is sandwiched between: The Gentiles will be judged for their lusts (before), but you guys be serious, watchful, prayerful lovers (after). God’s love will cover the sins of even a great multitude of (antediluvian) Gentiles.

    • patrick


      My extremely condensed, somewhat lacking on side comments, but directly to the point, version of 1Pet.3:18-4:8
      ” Messiah suffered for sins that He might bring us to God. Being made alive by the Spirit, He also went & preached to the spirits in prison, who were once formerly disobedient , when Divine suffering waited while the ark was prepared. Since Messiah suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves! For he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. Live for the will of God! The will of the Gentiles: lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, abominable idolatries. They will give an account to Him who’s ready to judge the living & the dead. This is ALSO why the gospel was preached to those who are dead: that they might be judged like all men in the flesh, but live in the spirit! The end is at hand. Be serious & watchful in prayers, and above all, have fervent love for one another – for love will cover a multitude’s sins.

    • Jay Altieri

      #253 Ezra 1:5 God stirred the spirit of people. For background,see my #199. God stirs their breath, meaning thoughts. In OT I see a lot of overlap between nephesh and rauch. These emotions come from the soul.
      Lots of stirring of rauch in OT: 1Chron 5:26 Pul of Assyria; 2Chron 21:16 Philistines; 2Chron 36:22 Cyrus; Ezra 1:1 Cyrus; Jer 51:11 Medes; Hag 1:14 Zerub.

      I see these verses as idiomatic for “got him worked up”, not literally about his metaphysical inner spiritman. That notion does not exist in OT, you are putting words into mouth of prophet. It is not what he meant. 2Pet 1:20 says Scripture means what it was originally intended to mean. You must get inside the head of author to know what he meant. You must wear his shoes to walk his path. This hermeneutic is called “historical-grammatical“approach and is readily accepted by all conservative scholars. What you are doing is called “reader response” approach. That hermeneutic claims that OT prophets wrote in code language that nobody of his own day understood. It was written for ME. 2500years later, it is all about ME. I understand it because of my 20-20 hindsight. RR is a bad approach, very self serving. HG attempts to understand the history and culture of the period in order to get a feel of what had been intended.
      The Iron age Israelites did not think about metaphysical spirits, thus those verses are likely idiomatic for God perking their interest in something.

      256- “captives (living angels/dead souls). All within (even Christians) will continue to be detained until the last days.”
      I’m still having a problem with this theology. Even after the resurrection of Jesus, our older brother (Heb 2:11), and our betrothed bridegroom (2Cor 11:2), you claim that Christians are still captive to death.
      Regardless of our status as hyper-conquerors (Rom 8:37), we are detained until the finale?

      Shabbat Shalom for a great weekend.

    • Jay Altieri

      Ezra 1:1 and genre of verse about stirred up spirit. If spirit in your paradigm means supernat force of animation, Why would God arouse the life force of Cyrus? What does mean? Was Cyrus nearing death before he was awakened in the spirit? Was his life force slumbering? It doesn’t even make any sense. My interpretation allowing for idiomatic figurative speech at least makes sense. Please explain what it means for a spirit to be aroused. Consult your lexicon, the word “stirred” means awaken from sleep. Was the literal metaphysical spirit literally asleep?

    • Jay Altieri

      #251 Rom 15:27 – Your Q:”why God would give Israel spiritual things if they were spiritually dead?” A: Not ALL of Israel was spiritually dead. God always keeps a remnant. Perhaps we are talking past each other about Israel’s identity. I reject the Dispy idea of Isr= an ethnic group of Hebrews. Israel=God’s people. Followers with faith (not DNA) are children of Abraham. Jesus’ family are those who harken to God (Mat 12:50). You +I are grafted into Israel as adopted sons. Adopted sons have all the same rights as natural born sons. Thus WE ARE Israel. Furthermore, God cuts off rebellious branches. They are piled up to be burned and destroyed. Thus many Hebrews that call themselves Israelites are liars (Rev 3:9), they are not really Israelites because they deny Yeshua. This is important for many various topics of thought. Dispensationalism affects all of us in USA. Try this link, comments always welcome: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/church%20israel.htm Since that is an indepth study, I recommend printing the PDF+reading at home on the couch.

      So back to Rom 15:27. The Jewish church was a CHRISTIAN church. Of course they were spiritually alive. Paul was not bringing an offering to the Sanhedrin, it was to James’ assembly.

      246- My stab at what Gal 4:19 really means: We are constantly growing in Christ. The Galatians were saved, as such they had HS in their heart. But they had problems (legalism, Judaic exclusivity) that was stifling their maturation. Paul was himself feeling great anguish (similar to labor pains) as the Galatians fought internal disputes. I do not think this passage is relevant to NewBirth or resurrection discussion. It does exemplify that none of us have arrived. We are still a work in progress of growing Christlikeness within us.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, 248-“if Ecclesia has already received back what Adam had, then why do we not appear to have received back our glory?” This is an excellent question. I think it is related to the Already-Not yet tension seen so frequently in the NT. Why does Paul say that we are more than conquerors, yet we still struggle every day? Why does 1John 5:4 say that our faith is victorious, yet we are still persecuted and troubled? Why has God delayed for 2000yrs for bringing back Jesus? Why are we not resurrected already?
      Rom 8:37 reminds me of the old hymn “Conquerors and overcomers now are we.” Yes we are overcomers today, yes we have a living spirit seated with Xp in the heavenlies now (Eph 2:6), but we won’t fully be completed until the resurrection at the Parousia.

      I have a modest Charismatic bent, so the way I see this dichotomy is like this: we currently have enormous power in the spirit (small s) through the Spirit (big S). I believe it is possible today for great miracles, and they still happen (but not so much in the jaded, wealthy West). Believers will heal the sick, raise the dead (Mat 10:8); and do greater miracles than Jesus himself ever performed (John 14:12). Wow, that is serious stuff. Today, especially in rich nations, the power available to us in the spirit realm is untapped. Ashamedly, I have never raised anyone from the dead though the power of the gospel. But I know missionaries in Africa who have. I think frequency of miracles have an inverse relationship to material prosperity.

      These miracles are possible because we have a spiritman within the heavenly realm. However the rent/break/tear between spirit realm and material realm is still there. That will finally be healed when NHNE comes. We currently are VICTORIOUS in the spirit realm, but we wait eagerly for the resurrection to have victory over physical. Thus I see a dichotomy between the classic Already-NotYet tension.

    • Jay Altieri

      223/251 Spiritual=Miraculous in 1Cor 10:3-4 Israel got manna from clouds and water from a rock. Manna +water were physical, real life food/beverage service. They were from a spiritual supernatural source, thus they were miracles. Paul is using a linguistic tool called synecdoche. Since you don’t believe in figures of speech, I guess you may have a problem with this. Within a literalist context, how do you interpret this verse? Was Isr’s spirit eating invisible food? What was your original point in bringing it up?

      Here is an interesting verse: Job 34:14-15 I think we agree about the meaning for the dead physically. They cease to exist (Job 14:10). They are forsaken by God (Ps 88:5). Forsake means not remembered, forgotten, having no contact. When God forsakes them, He removes his HS. When he removes HS, the dead return to dust. Because existence is only possible with God’s presence.

      I consider this divine forsaking holistically and completely. God forsakes the WHOLE man (body/soul/spirit), not just the body. So in my paradigm soul+spirit also suffer the wages of sin. The Good News is that after Jesus there is now a cure for this problem. As I understand your theory-God forsakes body of everybody and soul of post Deleuvians, but He receives the personal spirit of everybody back . So that the man isn’t entirely forsaken, only 2/3s. While AnteD’s were only 1/3 forsaken. Correct?

      As well as the intermediate condition, Job 34:14-15 has relevance for the final eternal condition. What is good for the goose…gander too. Sinners after GWTJ cast into LoF are FORSAKEN by God. He forgets(Prov 10:7) and blots out the name of the wicked (Deut 29:20).
      Forgotten and forsaken means that the HS does not abide with, does not fellowship with, with not associate with any sinner in Gehenna.
      HS is withdrawn from Gehenna. What happens when HS is withdrawn? Everyone in LoF returns to dust.
      Do you agree that HS will ultimately forsake wicked in LoF?

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, 259/262 Rom 5:13 you said”AnteD’s had to have sin defined so that they would be brought under condemnation.” Retroactively?
      If there is no law about eating bananas on Wed, And I eat 3bananas every Wed, Then 2000yrs later somebody tells me Oh, BTW, we have a rule now that you may not eat bananas on Wed, And we’re going to judge and hold you accountable for those retroactive sins.

      Is that fair? I think AnteD’s will be judged based on the light that they had been given during their lifetime. Even nature itself gives some guidance Rom 1:19-20. Conscience gives some guidance Rom 2:15. The HS whispers to everybody. So yes they will be judged, but you and I will be accountable to much more stringent measures, because to whom much is given…

      Why do AnteD’s get a second chance? How about Australian aborigines before Capt Cook landed in 1700s? How about Vikings in Iceland before Irish monks came in 900ad? How about Romans in 50ad before visited by early saints? How about Egyptians in 200BC? Or Moabites in 1300BC? How about people today that are just too busy too seriously sit down and listen?

      All humans only have this 1 life to respond to God. But the exact same sinful act performed by different people under different circumstances will receive different punishment based on their opportunity to respond. Consider: Prov 24:12; Heb 10:28-29; 2Pet 2:20-21; Mat 11:22-24; Luke 12:47-48; John 19:11.
      Christ’s comment to Pilate verifies that there exist weighted penalties based on personal knowledge. The Jewish leaders that condemned Him had the Torah+prophets at their fingertips. They should have known better. Thus they will be held to a stronger judgment.

      Also look at James 3:1. Point being that AnteD’s are not judged based on OUR knowledge and do not require continuing education classes. They are not retroactively condemned. They are justly judged based on what they had to work with. God knows.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, hope you are well. Sorry if I’m getting ahead of you. Fate of the Unevangelized is probably an entirely different string. To say that God kept spirit+soul together in conscious prison for anteDs, but not for AmerIndians, appears contradictory. Your rule is the point at which God gave a law (Noahide law: be fruitful+no murder Gen 9),
      But what good is a law if people don’t hear it? The law must be advertised so that it is available to people in order to hold those people accountable. If Moses makes a Law in Sinai, people living in China at that time are not bound by Moses’ law.

      I believe that All humans are exclusively responsible for their own behavior during life, because God gave a law in the beginning (Even before AnteD’s) that has been proclaimed loudly every day in all countries of the world. Eg: Sunrise, Sunset, Green trees, furry animals, night stars, etc. Rom 1:20 says ever since creation. AnteD’s are responsible for the nature of divinity as seen in creation. This is a small light compared to Scriptures that we have. Thus they will be judged based on what they had been given, not what we have been given.

      All humans have received some light from God. God only judges based on inform that they had. Thus some people will be judged and condemned more severely. However the ONLY forum for obedience and repentance toward God is this life. There is no reincarnation or 2nd chance.

    • patrick


      1Pet 3:18-19 … spirits=demons, not human: If true, then Pete is taking a detour from the context, per my last post. Where does it say ds are in Sheol? In the gos, Messiah’s light shows them plentifully pres on earth’s surface, awaiting a predetermined torment, evidently per Rev.18:2. If ds, then why are they punished early? No more ds on earth’s surface/all in Sheol? How do we learn their doctrines, & what about the post-ascen ds in Acts?

      Christ goes to “spirits in prison” AFTER he is quickened: Good point, & it does appear to be an ok conclus from the vs, but isn’t nec so, because I know of no other Scriptures that suppt such a seq, BUT the maj of evidence suppts those 3ds/3ns. The emph is placed on the Jonah acct by Yeshua. The OT portrayal of resting souls also matches this precisely, which you do not attach any signif to. According to this OT view of the immediacy of Sheol for departed souls, this makes a post-res return trip by Messiah unlikely. He was there, left, & went back. This issue also seems to be related to your later stmnt: ” dead people can’t DO anything “. You quote vss that suppt this, but you dismiss all vss that say otherwise. I take all the vss & harmonize. I believe the maj of vss you favor may simply be saying, “the dead are out of touch w/ the living.” Messiah (the Truth) stated that, like Jonah, He would be in the earth’s belly 3ds/3ns. If, unlike your theory, souls can functn somewhat in the earth’s bowels, which IS suppted by Scriptures, then the difficulty disappears. You run across the grain of the Scriptures on several sep subjs. Also, if Messiah’s ref to Jonah was intended to mean His soul was in a cave for 3ds/3ns, He wouldn’t have said it the way He did. Your view gens 2 much confus on 2 many topics that are otherwise clear. This is not my exp w/ the Scriptures/the way God speaks. God is very clear about things. The real diffs come w/ our own ig about spirit realms. We’re looking thru coke-bottles.

    • patrick

      … The portrait of Jonah is also an antetype for the res. In his “former life” J believed, but ran from God’s will. In death (while underwater) J went down to the mntn moorings. Altho J couldn’t see, he still knew God wouldn’t forget him. Spit up on the earth’s SURFACE after 3ds/3ns (the res),& despite suffering due to his new red-tinted body (Adam=ruddy), he went & preached to Gentiles. The Gents saw/heard this suffering red man & repented. God provided all his needs. J wanted God to judge the city for all his people’s shed blood, but God was merciful.

      1Pet 3:19 = 2Pet 2:4: The burden is on you to prove ds = fas. We are given plenty of info to know better. 2P2:4 are the fas from Gen6 – they departed from their appointed habs & went after strange flesh (women). Perfect descripts. “Cutoff from the temporal world” – this is a good obsrvatn, & goes w/ what I said earlier about interpreting your pet vss (that dead souls are out of touch).

      What was Jesus proclaiming?: The law to anted’s. 2P2:4 – Pete is talking about fas. The way I see it is that procreation was the issue w/ the angels. Man had it – they wanted it. A few got it on earth w/ women, nephs being the result. Most got it w/ idols they made that came to life, like in the Rev (“image” being a collective noun – many images). These may be 1 class of ds. “Angel babies” from images that were later destroyed. Spirits looking for images to possess. Study the collection of Heb words for “sin” – all the word meanings tell a story. An angel’s ability to proc may come from Myst Bab (“I will not know loss of children, or widowhood”). The false “qn of hvn” in the prophs speaks the same. She’s every false goddess worshipped: goddess of fecundity. Sorceress, lust personified, seductress, market city, false relig, etc.. A prin of drkns. The spirit of materialism in all its forms. She’s a princess (Venus), as well as today’s super-action fighting babe (Ishtar).

    • patrick


      Abaddon … is synon with sheol: I disagree Ab=Destruction=Corruption, not sheol. Not in Sheol? He’s in the Bottomless Pit, which is a subcmprtmnt of Sheol. He is a fallen angel. He is the angel of the BP.

      Disagree that modern political nation of Israel is protected by angels: Not angels, but angel – Mishael according to Dan.12 – read it.

      Mish is top-dog angel w/ myriads under him. God keeps perpetual watch on His land. Messiah’s seat will be there in the mil kngdm. Satan wants the land back to break the prophesied return of the Jews, but God will continue to protect. Wake up! So many latter day vss that focus directly on the place. Satan would rather see it nuked from the map – but for God’s will. The NJ will come down there – our future home, sweet home. You don’t think He’s watching over it? The Eklesia is PART of Israel, but not replacement. They meet Messiah near the end – some are true Israelites/some are not.

      Naamah … got a boat ride: That would be the idea, which is supported by Gen.6:4 in terms of the presence of giants after the Mabool. This is one possibility, and I can’t prove anything here – speculation only. God wiped out the purest lines of the neph under this theory. Yes, Mabool was a judgment on men. Man’s fault, he was wicked only continually, yada, yada, yada. No argument there. A lot like today (w/ no giants – yet).

      Humans/angels not the same kind: See prior post on Mystery Babylon. You mean hybridization between different kinds is not possible FOR MAN TODAY. We are talking potent sorcery here my friend.

      Angels have souls? Interesting. Why are they just refed as spirits then? I agree they have all the personality traits I use under nephesh. See, here’s another weird one about the spirit realm. I’m telling you, we don’t have a good handle on it!

    • patrick


      You said, “Adam’s presence in the spirit world ceased (died).” Now that is an interesting statement! I believe I can go along with that!! That’s probably exactly correct!!! I don’t think Adam’s spirit died, but his presence definitely expired in the spirit world. I consider that your genius statement of the week! Let me think about that for a while. This could be the common ground we’ve been throwing stones at each other for! How exciting!!

      Whatever happened to Gary? I feel bad it took me so long to get back to him.

      No way we have a good handle on the physical “sphere”. We still haven’t learned much in my opinion. Afterall, we are going to destroy the earth eventually.

      The only dead saints w/ Yeshua (in heaven) are under the altar of souls – those class A murdered guys, as you like to call them. Praying to saints is not “sort” of worthless – it’s “totally” worthless. One Mediator between mand & God, bro, not a few. God is jealous about such stuff. Do you pray to dead guys?

      reanimation of the inner man within that spirit realm: See, you believe in grafting too! We have too many semantics issues.

    • patrick


      To say that God kept spirit+soul together in conscious prison for anteDs, but not for AmerIndians, appears contradictory: Does it? The AmerInds received the law through Shem. God told Noah & sons to do no homicide. Yeshua said not even to hate. This is one of the chief reasons longevity dropped right after the Mabool. If it doesn’t live 900+ years, then it has received some law from God. The Chinese got the law through Shem too. In terms of the Mosaic laws, you are correct. The Chinese aren’t under the ML until they hear it.

      All humans are exclusively respon for their own behav: Agreed. But, in sin my mother conceived me. I came out yelling into this world, not at peace.

      God gave a law in the beginning (before AnteD’s): Which was? Rom.1:20 is saying that every man knows a Creator exists, but some try to suppress this fact, which is excusable. What a man reckons his Creator expects from him is not covered under Rom.1. Some might view a storm, fire, flood, etc.. &conclude He is a God of wrath, & respond accordingly. Some might see furry animals & expect that He is cuddly. God overlooked this up until the Appian Way missionary (Acts 17:30-32).

      There is no reincarn or 2nd chance: On the contrary, I would say there is a reincarn for believers, called the res. It puts the Spirit back in a man who is DEAD to sin – just like pre-fall Adam! The only diffs are that 1) the res’ed man will KNOW good from evil (the main reason for this present age), & 2) he will be thrown into great trib, which will serve as his judgment. Knowing good from evil, & being born into new life that gives him the chance to FINALLY wage a decent fight, WHICH WILL HE CHOOSE – the GOOD, OR the EVIL? Messiah won’t be dying a second time for him, should he freely decide to defect from the faith like Adam did. That’s why martyrs go the heaven, while others remain in Sheol. The “class As” have already been judged – & they passed! No need of further testing.

    • Jay Altieri

      247- Pretty much agree on use of rahab/levithn/tananeen/neckesh/dragon.I have no problem with a literal neckesh having been created as big snake dragon animal that was hijacked by Satan. Later that specie died out. However memories of it lingered in myth about dragons in China+all around world. Perhaps that animal was Leviathan of Job 41:19-20 it breathed fire. Dragon? Thus animal that was used to deceive Eve was (maybe) same dragon animal spoken of by LORD from the whirlwind unto Job. You should be proud of my literalism here. I’m ok with that. However these are probably not dinosaurs, those fossils are much older. It is possibly a modern dragon that cohabited with humans and went extinct.

      But other passages are not literal. Instead of literal 7 headed monsters, I see metaphor. Isa 51:9 +Ps89:10 use of rahab is borrowed from Ugaritic myth. She had 7heads. Ps 74:13 headS(pl). Rev 13:1 picks up with rahab in prophecy. Not a literal animal that will terrorize earth in endays, but a metaphor based on Isa 27:1 et al for a government that will terrorize believers. See my Islam in prophecy study: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/islam1.htm
      Thus when Isa 51:9+Ps 89:10 speak of God destroying rahab, this has not yet happened. It is prophetic of final battle of the eschaton between Antichristic beast +Messiah. Ainein Theon. Iesous kyrios estin!

      Job 7:12 is direct reference to Ugarit. KJV has a bad translation yam=name of Ugarit’s diety. There is no reason to lock up the ocean. That doesn’t make sense. Thus it should read “I am Yam or Tananeen, that you[God] must incarcerate me?” Most important detail here is Job has early date. Ugarit prominent 2ndMilBC Age of Patriarchs, Captivity+Exodus. Liberal scholars think Job was written during Exile, but I think much earlier, probably during captivity.

      Relevance of all this to our blog: Not all dragon references are literal. Some are metaphoric, spiritual. Opening up possibility of spirits being destroyed.

    • patrick


      If there’s no law about eating bananas on Wed … : Have you not read how Jonathan unwittingly ate honey after Saul had cursed any1 in his army who ate before evening? After Paul realized who he was addressing, did he repent of his insult aimed at the chief priest AFTER that CP had him struck unlawfully? The Mabool came w/out prior law. You can get a ticket for jaywalking, even if you don’t know it’s illegal, etc..

      The HS whispers … So they will be judged …: Then what’s the sig of Rom.5:13 & like vss?

      … you will be accntbl to more strngnt measures : I’ll never be judged based on law. I’m under grace. You know this, but may be confusing chastisement & damnation.

      Why do AnteD’s get a 2nd chance?: Every1 must 1st be brought under condemnation of law, & then hear the gospel & decide. True, or false? ALL Vikings must hear. I doubt your doctrine covers this. Is it fair? This huge heresy maintains that certain societies in time need never have heard the gospel. Wrestling w/ this will help you see my view. Do YOU believe that SOME need not hear the gospel? I believe every1 must hear – even the anteD’s. Some peoples will hear in the res. Rom.10:14-15

      Consider: Prov 24:12; Heb 10:28-29; 2Pet 2:20-21; Mat 11:22-24; Luke 12:47-48; John 19:11: These vss suppt my view. Luk.12:47-48 is worth noting: Both servant-types KNOW their Master, but 1 didn’t hear His instrctns. Beatings are not damnation, but are the conditions under which servants live. He who didn’t hear will receive fewer stripes. He is the one who will rise, having believed in his Creator, but never hearing of Messiah spcificlly. All are called to SUFFER for the Master. Those receiving more stripes will be chastised for knowing their own unfaithfulness, not for lawbreaking.

      Christ’s comment to Pilate … wghted penalties based on persnl knwldg: Messiah told P his sin was a result of others’ sins, & His suffering was despite P’s jdgmnt.

    • patrick


      in your system soul death is an anomaly: No, you are dismissing all vss that state the “anomalies” are there. “Every word of God” bro – got a problem w/ that?

      I don’t understand how to define death as anything other than ontologically: Use the Scripture’s complete def.

      you are stuck on the immortality of the soul: Guilty as charged.

      1Tim.6:16 – are angels mortal?

    • patrick


      the contemp spirit birth … is the pt that you had been denying: I already answered this 1. I believe at the time of confession the process of sanctified renewal begins, which is a new birth caused by our grafting (reconnection) w/ the HS. I have been thinking about our new common ground a bit (Adam’s presence in the spirit world ceased, or died). New analogy: At the point of confession, the “spiritual umbilical cord”, originally severed by Adam & defectively passed on to all men, is spliced back together. We don’t get the glory coat Adam had right off the bat, but we do have newborn eyes that are opening to the spirit realm. Like Paul, scales pop of our eyes? We develop, gaining strength to see more clearly (focused) aspects of the invisible realm through the provided teachings, which nourish us. Adam could see it fine, being fully developed – both spirit’ly and phys’ly, but we are starting in the phys hole – trying to climb out. The phys world retards progress due to constant bombardments of materials/needs/distractions. In the res we will be able to see the spirit realm because we will be fully clothed. The clothing is different from what we understand phys’ly. This glory provides all – our food, protection, needs, etc.. When Adam lost that, then he quickly identified his great lack – his bread from heaven was gone, the rivers of water flowing from his belly dried up, he was cold & hungry, thirsty & naked. The phys world pressed in & he ceased from the spiritual. He started to acquire for himself instead of receiving what God provided. Leaves for coverings, fruit instead of fellowship, etc.. He forgot about the spirit realm.
      I would say Adam performed a spiritual self-lobotomy (still breathing, but no recollection of spirit-side), but you seem to think Adam performed a spiritual self-beheading.

    • patrick


      A 75yr life does not incur infinite debt. It is some finite amount: “The wages of sin are death.” Would you say that’s perm, or temp? If you are preaching temp, then you are talking about purgatory, which I don’t do. If you pay your debt, you get to go free. I know you believe you will go out of existence after you pay, but that’s not the way your system should work. Once you pay, you get restored; you say that once you pay, you cease to exist. Why is that? That’s not the way it should be, if man can pay his own sin debts – is it? Not really sure why “quench” is so relevant here – seems like you are trying to introduce it to make your point.

      anger ceasing quotes are valid. Many Israelites will be destroyed: I disagree. Those who experience God’s wrath do so 4ever.

      Prideful spirits – 2 types, as I see it. The 1st is based on youth (like a kid who calls me an old geezer); the 2nd is based on materialism (every1 look what I have). I guess this could include knowledge as well, since it can puff up. Time always takes care of the 1st, and no one can take it with them concerning the 2nd. If you take your smarts, you won’t feel as smart then. I suppose spirits can pass through a challenged phase, but when they go back I think they revert to what they were when they left God. Just musings here.

      the spirit is ontologically born: see prior post analogy – does that help?

      Satan currently be in heaven accusing the saints: Rev.12:10

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, some new fodder for thought: please explain 1 Thes 4:14 within your paradigm. God brings the saints WITH Jesus when he comes. is Jesus bringing a tub full of unconscious spirits? Does this include the soul (conscious mind) only of martyrs who died for the testimony of Jesus? Or is this including all who sleep in Christ?

      What do you think happened to Enoch and Elijah? Before answering that question, read this: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/enoch_and_elijah.htm
      Comments welcome. Have to run have a good weekend.

    • patrick


      even wicked spirits return to God … Where are the wicked spirits?: There are few insights given. I still don’t think men’s spirits are wicked, but only unrepentant souls. I admit, I do not have difficulty imagining angels (spirits) in heaven, but struggle w/ the spirits of men (no soul attached) being there. I doubt angels have souls – they don’t seem highly emotional. For them to be pure spirit seems natural, but regarding man, it’s his soul that defines him. I don’t picture men’s spirits floating around & interacting w/ angels in heaven; I picture them as stones (crystals) in the NJ walls, some full of light, others not. It could be that the “wicked” spirits (your term) are sent back (recycled) into other men (at their births) until the full (predetermined) # of spirits adorn the walls w/ their light. The day of the Lord draws nearer as more of the NJ is completed, & is hastened as the Eklesia fulfills its commission. Don’t ask me to defend this, as I cannot. Mere speculation.

      “(spirits) Not currently staying”: This ref I made was to the SOULS of registered men. Sorry for the confusion.

      only a few limited 1st class souls currently make the cut (Rev.6:9). 2nd class souls must wait?: I don’t understand your repeated denial that the souls under the altar belong to men murdered for their faith! The passage is very CLEAR:

      ” When He opened the 5th seal, I saw under the altar the souls of THOSE WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN (shaphazo – butchered) for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried w/ a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge & AVENGE OUR BLOOD on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; & it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants & their brethren, WHO WOULD BE KILLED (apokteino – inflict mortal death) AS THEY WERE, was completed.”

    • patrick

      … Since these are the ONLY souls mentioned in heaven, I understand your extreme desire to make them include every dead believer, but that is simply NOT what the passage clearly states. This is an emotional issue, more than likely. I see it all the time. No one wants to believe there can be any other place for souls to rest. Even unbelievers despise Sheol, but the Scriptures are very clear. I don’t think I can go any further w/ this topic until I can get an acknowledgement from you that these are murder victims. I do not understand your prior defense of this verse. Please reconsider your argument. Please bring on your vss that support

      I don’t think God plays favorites. Our FAITH gets us into heaven, not our actions or which century we were born into: It doesn’t matter what you think, what matters is what the Scriptures say. Please provide your vss that support “when a believer dies his soul immediately goes up to heaven.”

    • patrick


      Upon Good Confession (GC), we are given a divine gift of new spirit: Ok, so, since you believe we never had a spirit before (wasn’t essential to our moving around, breathing or fleshy life), & now we do have a spirit after our GC, is this the HS, or not? Everything I read in the Scriptures seems to indicate it’s the Spirit that comes, not a spirit. I believe this would take you back to Shirley McL (everyone gets a little piece of God). You say we get both the little s & big s, but I don’t understand why it wouldn’t simply be big S required here? I believe I need the little s for animation, breath, fleshy life & for an instilled sense of separation from God (sense of something missing – anger), but you seem to need the little s only to be like a little buddy to the big S. Where did the little s manifest from? Supporting vss that specifically state we get a little & big s at our GC? Sorry if I’m making you repeat yourself. My bad! Gal.6:15, 2Cor.5:17 & Eph.2:1, which you site, don’t speak of a new little spirit. I question your use of Rom.4:17 in the context you are placing it in – it refers to Abraham’s old body being rejuvenated (as well as Sarah’s) so that Isaac (who God spoke of in the present tense BEFORE his birth) could be born.

      So re-born, new birth, born again expressions don’t create a snag for you based on the metaphorical res from the dead of mankind’s spirit? Hmmm.. But you have said in the past that man had no life until Yeshua ascended. No?

      I still think I take issue w/ “spirits of just men made perfect”. “Unjust men made perfect through spirits” would make more sense to me according to your theory.

    • patrick


      You must get inside the author’s head to know what he meant: By reading everything he said. I only need the HS to interpret.

      hist-gram approach vs. reader respns: Please provide your supporting Scriptural refs. I don’t need a man btwn me & the word, telling me what it means. It might as well be written in Latin in that case. The Scriptures are clear. Men that interpret according to the HGA were not there when the texts were written, so they’re just as apt to be wrong as right. The word is for ALL times, espec last days times. God knew what to write & how to say it for ALL times. If He can’t get that right, then who should I trust? He would cease to be my God if I couldn’t understand/believe/trust Him at His word. He has magnified His word above His name (Psa.138:2)! We need to study.

      Regardless of our status as hyper-conquerors, we are detained until the finale?: Yep, unless we’re “class A’s,” as you say. The whole body needs to be assembled in unity. The end of the age is harvest time – do you want to go into that field? Unfulfilled paradigms have to take place. The end time is the focal point. The Eklesia needs to be confirmed after receiving its res perfection. If they defect (like Adam did) then they’re spots & wrinkles. The bride makes herself ready, & the saints’ righteous deeds, are done on earth, not in heaven. Yeshua said He was going to prepare a place for us & that He would COME BACK FOR US. That’s His 2nd coming! Adam’s failure granted us knowledge of both good & evil; when we rise we will retain that knowledge. When Adam failed (being evil-ignorant), God didn’t say, “Darn! Guess I’ll try something else.” God fully intends to take us right back to Adam’s pt of defection, BUT He’ll equip us WITH knowledge of evil, AND a new body (DEAD to SIN & FILLED w/ the HS). He hasn’t changed His mind since Adam. He takes us thru trib, not around it. He’s coming at an unexpected hr.

    • patrick


      Why would God arouse the life force of Cyrus?: In the exact same sense that the Scriptures read, Cyrus was stirred up to take action for God’s people. God laid it on his heart, or He made him vigorously desire to do this thing. It is a spiritual condition that drives a man, just like when the Spirit came on an OT man. A zeal like John the Baptist had. Surely you understand what I’m saying? What God didn’t do was to make Cyrus gasp for breath.

    • Jay Altieri

      271you ask”Where does it say Ds are in Sheol?” I never said that. I think sheol is poetic way of saying grave. Nobody is in a mythological sheol. Some Ds or FAs or whatever they are (I don’t make distinctions, but am not opposed to your calibration between these evil spirits) are in Tartarus (2Pet 2:4). Pls reread #234. I agree that the vast majority of Ds+FAs are on earth and teaching men evil doctrines, only a small minority are locked up in Tartarus. Tartarus is not sheol. Tartarus is a real place within the spirit realm, possibly a chamber of LoF. LoF is not yet populated by anyone human or spirit, because it utterly destroys and turns to ash. I didn’t say anything about torment or corporal punishment. It says they are held in chains under darkness, I interpret this as solitary confinement in a tiny cell. They didn’t make bail, for whatever crime they committed. I do not believe corporal punishing may be inflicted until AFTER the last judgment. That applies to punishment of D/FAs too.

      FAs of 2 Pet 2:4 did not go after strange flesh. You are mixing up your verses. Jude 1:7 strange flesh is about homosexuals in Sodom. These are people, not D/FAs.

      So you think Abaddon is in Abyss which you consider to be a compartment of Sheol and Gen6 FAs are in Tartarus? You don’t find the similarities a little too coincidental? Where exactly is Tartarus?
      Did you say that demons are the children of FAs? This is way outside of Scriptural purview, I have no comment.

      You mention Jonah in 271-2. You said “In death while underwater.” I think we agree, except I think dead means really dead, you appear to think it means separated from the body. Try this short study: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/jonah's.htm
      You also mentioned Jonah’s ruddiness. What? Detail please.

      If D+FA can’t die and cease to exist, then sin will remain in the universe for eternity. Yet Jesus came to do away with sin of the cosmos(John 1:29)

    • Jay Altieri

      #271 Where was Jesus for those 3 days? You appear think he was conscious and alive in sheol/ab and took field trips to preach to spirits of men, who have no ears, but apparently can still hear. No soul but they still think and respond. They have no body but were still alive and functioning?
      Ironically, you don’t see any contradictions in this.

      I think Jesus suffered the consequence of sin. He experienced exactly what all people get. Death. Check any dictionary, death means the total and permanent cessation of function. He was body dead, spirit dead and soul dead. All aspects of anthropology (B-S-S)are subject to the curse. Jesus got, what we deserve= cessation of function on EVERY level. So my theory, is that Jesus was in the grave for 3 days, poetically called sheol. There is no good news to preach during those 3 days (even if he could) because w/o resurrection, it is vanity. There is no gospel hope of salvation for anteDs (even if they were alive soulfully), because w/o resurrection, NT is a liar(1Cor 15:17).

      273-Dan 12:1 Michael as guard of YOUR people Israel. Yes, but who are Daniel’s people? Rabbinic apostate Jews who blaspheme God + claim that He has no Son? Or believers in Mosiach? Read my Israel +church paper. WE are Dan’s people. Agreed that Eklesia is part of Israel, not replacement. However before Parousia it is major part. All prophecy must be faith centered not gene centered. Agreed that in end genetic Isr will come to faith. In the meantime they are cutoff. Thus Michael stands over the Church and Believing Israel(very small).

      274- agreed praying to dead people is totally worthless, I was toning down my words to be polite, not knowing where Gary landed on these things. Only guy I pray to is Jesus who once was dead. I don’t think dead saints can hear you, even if they could they are impotent to do anything about it.

    • Jay Altieri

      269/77 bananas on wed. 1Sam 14-Saul’s oath was not binding, just Saul talking big. Jonathon was not punished. Beside that wasn’t retroactive, it was eating in ignorance to his father command. You said that Jesus preached in order to bring the law to AnteDs.

      Acts 23:5 do you think Paul is apologizing? Or is he using sarcasm: A true high priest would not give such an order based on Deut 25:1-2.
      Ananias was a Roman patsy not from the line of Aaron. Paul made the same whitewashed tomb analogy toward the Pharisees in Acts 23:3 as Jesus had made in Mat 23:27. It was not sin, when Jesus said it because He was without sin. Thus it was not sin when Paul said it either. Thus Paul is not apologizing, he is using sarcasm to expose the hypocrisy of the bogus Sanhedrin court. On other occasions Paul made caustic statements with a smack of sarcasm: Gal 5:12; Phil 3:2.
      Paul certainly knew who the HP was. Paul was from a wealthy family in Asia(they were Roman citizens); he half grew up in Jerusalem; he trained at the feet of Gamaliel, a member of Sanhedrin. Thus although never a member himself, Paul would be familiar with these men. It is not that he didn’t recognize the HP, but he didn’t recognize the behavior as high priestly.

      John 18:22-23 has a very similar situation. I think Luke (author of Acts) is drawing a parallel between Jesus and Paul. Both were persecuted by ungodly wolves posing as sheep.
      My point is that no retroactive condemnation is proved in this passage.

      275/85- all unmartyred believers resurrected and put into GTrib. You mentioned this long time ago. I let it slide. Do you have a study link for that before I comment? Who teaches this? I think I disagree, but before I open my mouth I need to hear you out. Is there a name to this doctrine? Give me books, teachers or websites of this persuasion. I’ll listen.

    • Jay Altieri

      277- Jaywalking liability: interesting details from ever reliable Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat
      There are no fake excuses at the GWTJ, God knows what you knew. Human courts can’t excuse ignorance-because we don’t know for sure who is lying, but I think God DOES excuse for valid ignorance. Another words I don’t think Noahide law via Shem finds AmerIndians culpable. Likewise, anteD’s are not culpable for laws given afterwards or toward other folks. The only law that they are judged by is in creation, yet many still died because of their willful arrogance toward the Creator.

      You said:”Every1 must 1st be brought under condemnation of law, & then hear the gospel & decide.” I disagree. They already are under condemnation of whichever law they received Rom 5:18. Even under the simplest laws of creation, we screw up. The gospel is God’s willing to pardon those who seek him, but that repentance must come during this life.

      It appears that you support a second chance for all who have not had a crystal clear opportunity with the specific criteria of the gospel.
      Whereas I think it doesn’t matter what details of knowledge that you know in your head, it matters about your faith and heart condition. We are not saved by the amount of knowledge that we have. Abraham knew nothing about Jesus or Messiah, but he is father of our faith. Your position is held by scholars such as Gabriel Fackre. Whereas, I agree with John Sanders, my position is called inclusivism.

      I’ve read this and recommend:

      #280 is good question. I’ve answered this more fully here: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/purgatory%20hell.htm

    • patrick


      why God would give Israel spiritual things if they were spiritually dead?” A: Not ALL of Israel was spiritually dead: I thought you said everyone was spiritually dead prior to Messiah’s ascension? We are talking OT context in 1Cor.10, so who was spiritually alive in Moses’ day? Please explain.

      I agree that Israel = God’s people, not just an ethnic group. I also believe the doctrines regarding the ethnic group needs to be handled very carefully – even with trepidation! Here is why: The grafting of the Eklesia into a living olive tree (Messiah being the vigorous root) is important to comprehend. BUT, note also that unbelieving natural branches can be grafted back in(!) IF they cease in unbelief. The teaching says that there is a living (spiritual) olive tree that once had a full set of natural branches, but branches were cut out. Branches were then taken from a wild olive and grafted in their place. Those wild grafts are warned not to boast against the removed branches, because God is able to take the wild grafts back out again. The passage also says that those natural branches can be grafted back in if they start believing. Be very sure that you are not boasting in your “Israel” theology!

      Ok, please state who the full set of branches were in the living, spiritual, olive tree. Please also explain who in particular was grafted out of the tree, and what their current state is (dead or alive). Please state who the natural branches are, and how, being under grace, they can be grafted out again. Please also state an example of who, among the natural branches, could be grafted back in again, and why.

      many Hebrews that call themselves Israelites are liars (Rev 3:9): Don’t mix Jew and Israelite – they are not the same! A Jew may or may not be saved. Right? You aren’t claiming to be a Jew are you?

    • patrick

      Gal 4:19 – The Galatians were saved, … had HS … But they had problems … stifling their maturation. Paul was … feeling … anguish: Paul was feeling phobeo – fearful, terrified, scared enough to run away from something – Gal.4:11. Those courting the Gals wanted to exclude (ekleo – shut out) them (Gal.4:17), and Paul didn’t deny that it could happen. He had his doubts about them (Gal.4:20). No, he was terrified for them. Free will enters in (Rom.11:22, Col.1:23). We all have the right to walk away. But what do you think?

    • patrick


      the Already-Not yet tension seen … won’t fully be completed til the res … we currently have enormous power … thru the HS. I believe it’s poss 2day for … Believers (to) … raise the dead (Mat 10:8); & do grter miracles than Jesus … (John 14:12): Interesting stuff! Setting aside, for a moment, your Afr missnaries who raise the dead (as I persnly don’t know any1 who recntly raised the dead), let me suggest a diff interp: The entirety of Yeshua’s words are prophetic & speak to the res day of the body of Messiah. THEN EVERYBODY, frm least to grtest in the Eklesia will be miracle wrkers (not just a few class A’s). Paul, Pete, Jims & John, etc.. also had HS pwr. They were part of the former rain, & wrote about it. They acted like res’ed men, which means they would go to their deaths for Messiah’s sake. They all thot He was coming soon. The LITERAL former rain comes on the land of Isrl to prep the soil for planting (softened dirt tills easier/germs sown seeds readily). FIG’LY, this points to the Pentecost HS outpour that preped for planting the Church. The latter rain brings on harvest after a long, dry summer. Fig’ly this is the last days HS outpour that includes the res & the vast subseqnt conversns (inclding many res’ed Hebs!) for Messiah, brot about under HS pwr. U see, the Church is largely ineffectual 2day(!) ’cause we r merely learning to walk/talk, so only the dopes join. After a hard summer, we will all be assembled (prior to separated by time) into 1. Get that! A united body – not in heaven, but, as commanded, on earth. Yeshua’s 2nd Parous starts the res off, but we still don’t see Him (He’s up in a shek cloud like during Exo). Here’s our Shepherd, we’re His flock (get it?). The Eklesia’s least will be like David, the grtest like the Angel of the LORD. 1 will put 10k to flight. We will see Him coming on the cloud 3.5 yrs later – IF WE CNTNU IN THE FAITH! This places = emph on His teachings, not just His deeds/salv plan.

    • Jay Altieri

      Ecc 12:7 spirit returns to God. I think this simply means that life was originally a gift from God, so at body death, He takes life back. Nothing actually goes to heaven. This is figurative way of speech. But you seem to think rauch actually goes to heaven.

      Heb word for return means to come back again, to turn around and return from where you had previously been.
      Do you propose that all these spirits were originally in heaven and get doled out into bodies? Then when body dies spirit goes back into the warehouse in heaven? Did you actually say they may get re-issued to a different person? Wow, that is Eastern. Perhaps there are a limited #of spirits, +they just reincarnate over +over? Let’s work this out:

      You believe that all spirits are good. But you also believe in eternal conscious torment. So at the GWTJ, the good spirits (which have been in heaven+maybe recycled around to other people) are reunited with the body from the grave and the soul from Sheol.
      But which person to they go to if they’ve been recycled? This was the Sadducees puzzler for Jesus in Mat 22:28.

      Then the whole person BSS is tossed into LoF. Why are you punishing the good spirit?

      278- 1Tim 6:16 God exclusively has athanasia (no death). This means that intrinsic nature of God is unique. No other being in cosmos has immortality outside God. Because God alone is eternal, in primordial past only God existed. Everything was created by his word. Everything exists for his pleasure. Yes I think this includes angels too. Angels receive immortality (no death) as long as they maintain their first estate (Jude 1:6). Humans receive immortality as long as they put trust in Jesus. Outside of God’s covering wing, death will come to all.

    • Jay Altieri

      279-I’m ok with everything you said. Your Lobotomy vrs My Beheading is about correct. Consequence of sin isn’t just blindness+ lack of realization, it is death. Cessation of being, consumed, cut off, destroyed, devoured, and perish. That is the biblical language. It never speaks of death as separation.

      282- Do angels have soul. Remember ‘soul’ is translation of nephesh/psyche. We have agreed that these words mean mind, thoughts, will, emotion. Although I’m coming up short with verse using both psyche and angelos together, I do see these traits of soulishness in angels (including FAs): 2Cor 11:3 cunning; 1Pet 1:12 longing; Job 38:7 joy; Ps 148:2 praising; Luke 2:13 praising; James 2:19 fearing; Rev 12:12 wrath; Rev 12:17 anger; Luke 8:28 begging; 2 Tim 2:26 willpower. Where there is smoke there is fire. Where there exist soulish traits there must be a soul. I think angels have personality. That is the definition of soul. We have pointed out verses that animals have soul, men have soul and God has soul. Why would angels not have emotion or thoughts?

      284 correct I think the spirit element of man is exclusive for interaction within the spirit realm (2nd circle per Gary). Man’s spirit has nothing to do with breathing or life. Those are functions of nephesh/psyche (soul). Numerous OT verses using rauch are lapping over with nephesh in metaphor, seemingly ascribing one to the other. You have pointed out that this may be a weakness in my theory. Duly noted.
      Upon the GC, we have an ontological birth of spirit within spirit realm(new birth) New birth is small s spirit for the HS is eternal and cannot be ‘born.’ He always was. Additionally, separate deal, we are given gift of HS to come into us.

    • Jay Altieri

      Where exactly does HS reside inside of us? I propose in the soul (mind thoughts psyche). In Mat 4:24, Mk 5:2, Mat 15:22 and many other vss, people are said to HAVE a demon (evil spirit), or to be POSSESSED, meaning controlled. Evil possession is opposite but similar to HS possession. (Except HS doesn’t override your thoughts. He is a gentleman)
      My theory is that pre-Jesus Res nobody had a spirit, so this possession must be in the mind. If you do a thorough autopsy, you will not find spirits (Holy or evil) in the flesh, so this possession must be in the mind.

      Lk 8:30-33 Legion entered into pigs(a legion is 6000 soldiers). Animals don’t have metaphysical spirit, only the breath life. Pigs do have a mind, thoughts, fears, willpower. Pigs have soul, Ds entered the soul.
      Notice in Mk 5:8 Ds come “out of the man.” Same word as in Mk 5:2 Jesus came “out of the ship.”
      Mat 8:16 Ds are “cast out”, so they are inside, just as the HS is inside.
      Mat 12:44-45 Ds DWELL in the house.

      I think a demon in an unsaved person (still happens bunches today) is like a parasite inside their mind. I totally believe in D possession today. But the HS is more complete. Instead of a parasite inside your mind, HS FILLS believers-Acts 2:4; 4:31; 9:17 pimplemi. HS isa complete coating across your entire mind. Rom 12:2 renewed mind.

      Likewise Pharisees and unsaved people can be Filled(pimplemi) with confusion Acts 19:29; envy Acts 13:45; indignation Acts 5:17; madness Lk 5:26; wrath Lk 4:28. All these emotions come from the soul-mind. Probably these were demons of envy, madness +wrath.
      This appears to be further evidence that spirit (holy or evil) dwells in the soul/mind.

    • patrick


      1Cor 10:3-4 … how do you interpret this vs?: First, I believe in figures of speech. The passage is a small portion of a cautionary passage to the Church. Basically, it points to the res (here patterned after Exodus events). Messiah’s message about eating His flesh/drinking His blood is clearly being alluded to here. Manna – His body/water from the Rock – His blood, is being transposed back on Exodus Israel. Just as they figuratively ate & drank these spiritual provisions from Messiah, so too have we. We are warned to be sure not to offend God as they did – they are our examples of how not to act. It is very easy to glimpse the res in this passage (vs 11). We will be tested (judged – vs 5) as (all vss 1-4) Israel was tested after being baptized out of death (Red Sea crossing). Note the Rock “followed” them – an indication that when the cloud is in the rear of the camp, testing ahead is coming. Adam failed, Israel failed, the risen members of the true Eklesia will not fail because they will be operating at Adam’s original level PLUS the knowledge of the consequences of sin.

      God forsakes the WHOLE man (body/soul/spirit), not just the body: Even the body is not forsaken forever. Yeshua’s body wasn’t, & neither will ours be. God didn’t forsake the souls of the OT righteous – Psa.139:7-12. God didn’t forsake their spirits (Eccl). The AnteDs souls & spirits were not forsaken – they had a place to wait to hear. Only the flesh/souls of the wicked will be forsaken in the LoF.

      HS is withdrawn from Gehenna: Scary thought! The HS won’t be in there. The people thrown in will never have experienced the HS. So you think the HS will abide w/ the wicked in the LoF until they have paid their sin debts, & then depart from them?

    • patrick


      probably not dinosaurs, those fossils are much older: On what do you base that statement?

      Instead of literal 7 headed monsters, I see metaphor: We are qualified to take this figuratively – both from Daniel and the Rev. Odd that God repeats the figurative link.

      rahab is borrowed from Ugaritic myth: Have you read much about this? Reading recommendations?

      God destroying rahab … is prophetic of final battle … between AC beast & Messiah: Will disagree here, but don’t have anything conclusive on this yet – needs more study on my part. Refs to Rahab are past events, bur refs to Leviathan are prophetic. Seems like you are mixing the 2. On what grounds?

      Job has early date … probably during captivity: I would say more like circa Tower of Babel.

      Have a great weekend – God bless!

    • Jay Altieri

      284 “a little buddy to big S” I like that. Thanks. Youre correct that I cant cite a spcf verse that unequivocally states my thesis. There also is no such verse for Trinity, young earth, immortal soul, ecclesia confirmation after res, and most of your suppositions either. A more fair question would be to ask me for supporting documentation leading into that theory, which you have supplied for me, thanks. I think the new creation vss lend evidence that something came into being that had not been there before the GC. I take this literally that the spirit is created afresh in new birth. You take it metaphorically that your mind is refreshed. I see an ontological birth+creation, you dont.

      285 you said “I don’t need a man btwn me&word, telling me what it means.”
      Patrick my friend, that is short sighted +little bit arrogant. We stand on the shoulders of bible scholars + students who went ahead of us. We listen to our brothers&elders. We know that God speaks to them as much as He speaks directly to us, so if you only need”the HS to interpret” directly to yourself, then you will miss out on 95%of the conversation and what He said. If you seriously believe that, then why are you bothering to talk to me? God should split the skies open +reveal it directly to you, so that you know everything.
      We agree that Scripture is final authority. And that everything written about it is opinion and commentary. And that lots of commentary is flat wrong, so that we must be discerning& always prayerful. Agreed that we need to study +responsibility for our beliefs lies on ourselves. But your lack of regard for history is disconcerting.
      Hist-Gram studies the context +history of a period to understand how people think. Grammatical studies take language seriously. If God inspired the Bible, he inspired the words too. We accept PLENARY inspiration, it is FILLED UP withGod’s inbreathing. You said that you don’t care too much about verbal conjugation

    • patrick


      expln 1The.4:14 …. God brings sts WITH Jesus … is Jesus bringing … unconscious spirits? Does this include the soul (conscious mind) only of martyrs who died for the test of Jesus? Or is this including all who sleep in Christ?: The Scriptures define the following as sts: OT Israel (presumably believers), malukim (angels in the form of men, presum holy ones), and the Church. Per my view, Messiah brings His malukim, as well as the martyred souls under the altar. The spirits of the martyrs come w/ their souls. The spirits of believers never go unconscious, just as the souls under the altar remain conscious – & angry. I believe the expression “those who sleep in Yeshua” in the vs is in ref to the departed souls of Thessaly loved ones (martyred or not). Messiah’s intent is to return for the remainder of the body, whose souls are still resting in Sheol, to confirm their faith in Messiah thru testing. In terms of class B spirits, these would also be in tow, but, as I said, believers’ spirits don’t go unconscious (only souls sleep). Messiah will descend to the clouds w/ a shout/trump call, & the dead in Him (plus BC Israelites – yep!) will be raised. Class A’s receive glory-bodies that are caught up to the cloud, whereas class B’s have their spirits carried by the HS to newly assembled bodies (sinew/flesh on bones) standing on the earth, just as Eze. states.

      What… happened to Enoch & Elijah?: Enoch was trans’ed/Elijah was taken up in a vehicle. Personally, I believe Enoch = Melchizadek, but have no proof to bring to bear other than no one has ascended into heaven but the Son. Elijah would be a similar situation, but, being 1 of the 2 “sons of fresh oil,” he & Elisha are positively id’ed as the 2 Witnesses; besides their strikingly sim names, both provided “fresh oil” to widows. I’m also tempted to say Elijah = JB per Messiah (Mat.11:14), despite JB’s denial, but not sure what He meant : “willing to receive it”.

    • patrick


      Ds or FAs or whatever they are (I don’t make distinctions, but am not opposed to your calibration between these evil spirits) are in Tartarus (2Pet 2:4): But failing to make this distinction causes the 2P2:4 vs to come under scrutiny. Because I distinguish between the 2, FAs (angelos) are the only spirits in Tar. No Ds are ever refed as being in Tar, unless you count locusts in the Pit as Ds. Do you? Because if you do, THEN THEY DON”T LOOK MUCH LIKE ANGELOS, DO THEY! Regardless, locusts are not said to be in chains of darkness, but are rather locked behind a gate, & their release is not their judgment (but 2P2:4 explicitly states these bound angelos’ will only be released at the time of their judgment). No, the only detained FAs (no Ds) in Tar (aka BP, aka Abyss) that we are informed about comes from Peter/Jude (see my Jude comment below). These can only be the FAs of Gen.6 per my view. You, on the other hand, have Ds/FAs that are stuck in TAR for no known reason, it would seem, while a plethora of others are still free to run the face of the earth.

      FAs of 2P2:4 did not go after strange flesh. You are mixing up your verses. Jude 1:7 strange flesh is about homosexuals in Sodom. These are people, not D/FAs: I do not believe it is I who am mixed up. The passage is stating that, just as the men of S&G went after strange flesh, so too these FAs went after strange flesh (women in this case). Read it again:

      Jude 6&7: ” And the angels who DID NOT KEEP THEIR PROPER DOMAIN (matches Gen.6 descrip well), but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting CHAINS UNDER DARKNESS FOR THE JUDGMENT (& therefore the same angelos as 2P2:4) of the great day; AS Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them IN A SIMILAR MANNER TO THESE, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after STRANGE (Grk: heteros – another) flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. “

    • patrick

      you think Abaddon is in Abyss … a compartment of Sheol & Gen6 FAs are in Tartarus? You don’t find the similarities a little too coincidental? Where exactly is Tartarus?: Yes to Abad in Abyss. Abad is Corruption/Destruction, who is occasionally let out to run rampant on earth – particularly during the death of the 1st born in Egypt. Does not sound like everlasting chains to me. Other FAs are there because the BP is evidently the place for living spirits. Tartarus, or rather, the Abyss, is defined as a chasm of surging water (spirit-catcher). Its locale, like Sheol, would be in the depths of the earth, but just where I cannot say.

      Did you say that demons are the children of FAs?: Speculation on my part. Not the nephilim offspring of FAs, but spirits that manifested from an unholy practice likened by the Scriptures as adultery/fornication/sexual immorality/unfaithfulness to God – namely, idol worship. You see, I do not believe these handles are just arbitrary analogies, but that they carry more significance than most would believe. I believe that Mystery Babylon (the great whore) is behind all this.

      You also mentioned Jonah’s ruddiness. What?: Jon.4:6. What do you think it means? Jonah was burnt by the digestive juices of the fish.

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