Is the Mormon Faith a True Representation of Christianity?

I had a good reply but it didn’t make it in somehow so I will try again

Hey Jared,

Seems like I’m not the only one that doesn’t think we are talking about the same Jesus. A very high up in your own church has apparently said the same thing:

“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).”

http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/hinckley-says-mormons-believe-different-jesus

First off, sorry this came later than the promised one hour. Straight “A” kid, he deserved ice cream 😉

Now, based on the answers I at least got from Alma, I would like to make the case that Mormonism is not Christian. Why ?

Let’s focus on number 9 in particular. I can provide the answers to all 10, but I think everyone here agrees that they are pretty basic stuff. Considering number 9, I think Christians would answer that question without doubt as “Yes, there is only one God for the entire world, galaxy, universe, all the planets, stars, comets and everything in it”. If not, I will write a supportive essay on the answer.

Now my case as to why Mormonism is not Christian.

It is easy to say that billions of Christians over millennia have had a wrong interpretation of Scripture and to claim that Mormons have the right interpretation of Scripture. Even though both interpretations are completely opposite in fundamental beliefs, such as only one God. For at least 1,800 years, Christians have believed in only one God. We may have struggled with the concept of the Trinity, but never have we questioned that there is only one God. Consider then that the Mormon interpretation of Scripture didn’t really surface until 1,500 years or so after the first Christian interpretations of Scripture.

Allow me to make a, admittedly far-fetched, comparison: I am an immigrant in the United States (note: LEGAL immigrant 😉 ) Yet I am not (yet) a citizen. Now I could make the claim that I am an American because I have a better understanding of the constitution and therefore I am a true American. And you, who have lived here all your lives, who have US passports, etc, are not really Americans because you don’t understand the Constitution.

You can see this doesn’t hold. We have come to acknowledge the term “American” to apply to those people that hold US passports and that are US citizens. I could make the case that that is a wrong definition, that we really should look at how well people understand the Constitution to determine whether they are American or not, etc. Likewise, we have come to apply the term “Christian” to people who adhere to at least the fundamentals of the Christian faith. This includes the answer to question 9.

The three major Judaic faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, are absolutely mono-theistic in nature. There is not an inch of doubt on that. But clearly from a Mormon answer to the same question, you accept a poly-theistic interpretation. Hence I would like to conclude that Mormonism is not only not the same as Christian, it is not even a Judaic faith. Don’t get me wrong, I believe there are some other interpretations that call themselves “Christian”, yet fail this simple test as well. I would no more call them Christian than Mormonism

Hence, and based on your answer to question 9, which indicates you adhere to a poly-theistic view, I would say that you are free to call yourselves Mormon, Church of Latter Day Saints, claim you have a better understanding of Christ, etc. Just like Islam claims to have a better understanding of Christ, in that they accept him as a prophet. But Muslims won’t call themselves Christian. I couldn’t accept that and Muslims admit it would be wrong. I believe it doesn’t hold for Mormons either. This is not a condemnation nor derogatory comment, but a statement of fact.

Once we agree that we have different faiths, Mormon on one hand and Christian on the other, now we can engage in a debate on whose interpretation is the most Biblically accurate. But at least we’re calling each other for what we really are without murking the waters. And once we’re there, we can have a healthy respect for each other and engage productively. At that time we can have the same conversation I would have with a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim or Jew on what we believe to be Christ and God. As long as you adhere to the statement that we have the same belief, faith and that Mormons are the true Christians, we are delusional and can not have a serious theological debate. Any discussion becomes pure speculation on words, terminology and an exercise in translation or grammar. But not theology. Stop calling yourself Christian, we have different fundamentals.

I hope this clarifies my position. Perhaps this was helpful. I do look forward to that acknowledgement and then continue a conversation on why believe there is only one God. One of the examples my be the translation of Deut 6:4 aka the Shema and accepted by Christians and Jews alike. We believe it says “One”, you believe it should say “First”. But until such time as when you agree you differ from any Judaic faith, I’m afraid we’ll be talking “past” each other instead of “to” each other.

In Him

Great point Michael L!

for some reason my posts are not coming in

Kara,

I found that if you have more than one link in your post it goes to moderation. Is that maybe why you are having probems?

1) A mention of the mercy of thy Lord unto His servant Zachariah. (2) When he cried unto his Lord a cry in secret,
(3) Saying: My Lord! Lo! the bones of me wax feeble and my head is shining with grey hair, and I have never been unblest in prayer to Thee, my Lord.
(4) Lo! I fear my kinsfolk after me, since my wife is barren. Oh, give me from Thy presence a successor
(5) Who shall inherit of me and inherit (also) of the house of Jacob. And make him, my Lord, acceptable (unto Thee).
(6) (It was said unto him): O Zachariah! Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him).
(7) He said: My Lord! How can I have a son when my wife is barren and I have reached infirm old age?
(8) He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me, even as I created thee before, when thou wast naught.
(9) He said: My Lord! Appoint for me some token. He said: Thy token is that thou, with no bodily defect, shalt not speak unto mankind three nights.
(10) Then he came forth unto his people from the sanctuary, and signified to them: Glorify your Lord at break of day and fall of night.

This is about the birth of John the Baptist and seems to be a very good account, and knowing John the Baptist is in the Bible, this passage seems Christian.

This passage is from the Quran. The Book of Maryam. So even if it sounds Biblical, one should take pause. Christian sounding does not make Christian. Mohammad made a new religion after an encounter with an angel, this angel told him to write a new book…sound familiar?

I discovered that cheryl, ty

Here is a link to an article with quotes from several other Mormon leaders stating that their Jesus is a different than the traditional Christian Jesus.

http://www.watchman.org/lds/gbhjesus.htm

Michael,

I read and understand your response. And, again, I fully accept that Mormons and Protestants have very different views of Jesus. I don’t know that they are much more different than Mark;s view was from John’s or Paul’s, but very different. Jews also disagree strongly about who Jesus was, however, it doesn’t make any sense to say that they believe in a “different” Jesus. Its doesn’t fit in with how we talk about anything else. You and I may have a different view of Barack Obama, but we don’t believe in different Obama’s. The “different Jesus” talk is just nonsense. It only makes sense to say that we believe very different things about the same man, Jesus of Nazareth.

Mormons believe that God has the ability and the prerogative to reveal new things about Himself, even if those things are not in the Bible. It really makes no sense whatsoever to think that the Bible is all God has to say on any subject. Again, believing that is not a biblical idea.

However, you still have yet to give me a biblical explanation of where Jesus said that if you didn’t believe in the Trinity, or sola scriptura, or some other peculiar protestant doctrine, then you are not saved and not Christian. Give it to me in HIS words if you can, for some reason I am not going to trust your opinions on this subject.

Cheryl said: “Can you tell me where in those Gospels you get the idea that Jesus was once a man that attained to Godhood?”

Wasn’t that the entire point of the Gospels?

Jared,

I guess you vastly disagree with some of your own Mormon leadership then on this area regarding if the Mormon Jesus is a different Jesus? Specially that a President of the Church who is supposed to be your prophet would say He is a different Jesus?Doesn’t the fact that they agree with our position on this cause you to at least stop and take a second look?

And the differences are so huge as to not be just different information about Jesus, but so different as to change who He is totally.

We believe He is the eternal God who created all things. We believe He has always God–not a man who attained Godhood. He was God befpre He came to earth. In addition to being God, He took on human form when He came to earth as Mary’s son and lived for 30 some years. They He returned to heaven. He was God all of that time–it was never something He attained to.

As the eternal God, He was active in the creation of all things including the angels. Lucifer was one of the angels who rebelled against God. He was the CREATOR of the angels, not spirit brothers with them.

Also, is it not true that Mormons believe Jesus, as well as all human beings, were spirit children of the Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Mother? That we all had a “premortal” existence before we were born on this earth as human beings? That Jesus has a unique status because He was the firstborn of all of these spirit children and so is literally our elder brother? That He has attained Godhood and we all have the possibiity of doing so too?

Traditional Christians believe Jesus is one with God and always has been. Humans were not spirit children of the Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Mother. We did not have a premortal existence. We see no indication of that any where in the Bible. Human beings were created by God and placed on earth many years ago. We are NOT spirit brothers to Jesus but created beings. To put Him as an equal with us in this way, is definitely to make Him a different Jesus than the one we see revealed in the pages of the Bible.

Cheryl:

” I guess you vastly disagree with some of your own Mormon leadership then on this area regarding if the Mormon Jesus is a different Jesus? ”

You misunderstand what Gordon Hinkley was saying.

Mormons absolutely believe and worship the Jesus of the bible, believe he is the Eternal God, creator of heaven and earth.

HOWEVER, you are still dodging. Where in the bible does it rule out Mormons as Christian? Where does Jesus give the criteria of his true followers? All you are saying is that we disagree on interpretation of the Bible, but you have yet to show me any BIBLICAL definition of “disciple of Christ.”

It would seem that as bible believers, we could go to the Bible, find out what Jesus said about the issue and make our analysis form that. What you are doing is going to the extra-biblical conclusions first, then finding that Mormons are not on the same page, and then putting words into Jesus’ mouth.

Where does Jesus distinguish his true disciples from others? Doesn’t he give qualities of his true disciples? Can’t we trust that He would give sufficient criteria himself and that Matthew, Mark, Luke or John would have somewhere recorded it? If He did not give clear criteria on who his followers were, why do you think you can be so confident as to who is “really” christian?

Where does Jesus say you have to be a “traditional Christian” to be a Christian?

Jared,

You say I misunderstand what Hinckley is saying. Here again is his quote, “”In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

He says, “The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.” What is to misunderstand? Sounds perfectly clear to me.

Well, Mormons don’t believe that the traditions adequately describe Jesus because more recent revelation gives us a clearer picture of Him.

Hinckley is speaking of the Jesus of the Bible.

You are still dodging. . . .If the Jesus has spoken about who qualifies as a true follower of Him, can’t we just agree on that, do we have to add to it to exclude each other just because we don’t agree on the correct theological formulation?

Jared,

I am not dodging. My whole point is that if you are following a different Jesus than the one the Bible speaks of, what difference does it make if we discuss the Biblical criteria for following the true Jesus or not? The Bibles criteria for the true followers of Jesus refer to the Jesus spoken of in the Bible. You can follow a different Jesus all you want using the Bible’s criteria but you will still be following a DIFFERENT Jesus.

Jared,

Thanks for your responses. My apologies for the delay. I am responding to your post 161.

I never mentioned anything about a “Different Jesus”. All I mentioned was an “understanding of who Christ and God are”.

My point is that Mormonism is not a Christian faith because Mormonism doesn’t adhere to a mono-theistic view. Any of the other arguments become purely polemic if you will not accept there is only ONE GOD. It’s part of Christianity as such, and has been for 1,800 years. Or longer if you accept the Judaic ancestry of Christianity.

Now to your other question on salvation. Nowhere did I indicate that “Trinity, or sola scriptura, or some other peculiar protestant doctrine” is a pre-requisite for salvation. The topic of salvation is an entirely different one, which I am more than happy to engage in as well.

I believe that the topic of this blog entry is whether or not the Mormon Faith is a true representation of Christianity. And IMHO the answer is “No” as long as the Mormon Faith accepts a poly-theistic world view.

Will you at least concede that that particular argument is correct, or prove me wrong where the Mormon Faith does not adhere to the view there are multiple Gods and that you as part of the LDS church can become a God.

Once we get to that stage and we clear that up, we can discuss what is the pre-requisite for salvation 😉

Hope I clarified.
With all respect

In Him

Reference: (note the last two words)
The Teachings of Prophet Smith, Section Six 1843-44, p.370

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.

Jared,

I wrote my last comment before your reading your last one.

You said, “Well, Mormons don’t believe that the traditions adequately describe Jesus because more recent revelation gives us a clearer picture of Him.

Hinckley is speaking of the Jesus of the Bible.”

That is where we totally disagree. We believe that the “more recent revelations” don’t agree with the Jesus of the Bible at all–that some of them, like the ones I spoke of in comment # 62 above downright contradict the Bible.

Cheryl said: ” The Bibles criteria for the true followers of Jesus refer to the Jesus spoken of in the Bible.”

Where is this in the bible, which verse, where does Jesus say this? This sounds like your opinion.

Michael,

I disagree that traditional Christianity is truly monotheistic, as Islam or Judaism is. Traditional Christianity holds that Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit are three personages of equal power and glory. This is why Muslims consider them polytheistic. I understand that this is your criteria for “true” christianity, but my question is what is Jesus definition. In the Gospels, Jesus is clearly a separate person from his Father. Hes also speaks of unity with his Father, the only question is how you interpret that. Do you grasp for the unbiblical, completely unexplainable doctrine of the Trinity, or do you explain their unity in terms of what Jesus said in the scriptures. Mormons prefer the latter, even if you call us polytheistic.

This is all very much beside the point. If the Bible is THE standard, where is its guidance on who is Christian, is there anything that clearly states how we can tell how we can know if we are disciples of Jesus?

Where in the Bible does it say you have to agree with everything said in the Bible in order to be a Christian. . . I have never seen anything like that. That is why Mormons can consider protestants Christian even when they believe in things that do not make any sense in view of the bible (i.e. the trinity).

We radically disagree on what the bible means, we have beat that dead horse. However, I have yet to see a BIBLICAL answer to the question. You simply ASSUME that Jesus rejects people that don’t get theology right.

Cheryl,

My answer may not coincide with all Mormons for a variety of reasons—and I can’t be held responsible for the opinions of others. But wrt #7, the Book of Mormon refers to Mary as a virgin after the birth of Jesus (1 Nephi 11:20: “And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.”)

Whoever your correspondent was who claimed that God had “flesh and blood” was mistaken. It is doctrine that resurrected beings do not have blood in their bodies.

It certainly has always been the teaching that a woman can reach the celestial kingdom without her husband. The requirement for entrance into the celestial kingdom is baptism for those who are over the age of 8. You may be confounding this with exaltation in the celestial kingdom which requires marriage. Neither is the woman without the man nor the man without the woman.” It’s fallacious to apply it only to a woman for a man can’t get there without a wife either.

In reference to Adam begin Michael, we aren’t limited to the Bible for our doctrine. I see no indication of that doctrine in the Bible either, but we have 3 other books of scripture that shed light on many other topics. That the Bible doesn’t refer to it doesn’t mean it can’t be—only that it doesn’t refer to the concept.

You understand the translation of the Book of Mormon erroneously. Joseph Smith never claimed that the text was given to him by God, he always claimed that he was its translator by the gift of God. Practically all of the editorial revisions (except for minor spelling changes (straight to strait as an example)) were made by Joseph Smith by 1841. He didn’t claim that it was the “most correct book” until 1843—which obviously applied to the most recent edition and clearly wasn’t referring to textual correctness but rather to doctrinal. No doctrines have ever been changed in the Book of Mormon—even from the first edition. Some unclear passages have been clarified but the original intent has remained constant.

Jared,
There is no simple way to discuss this without long passages. So I will try my best to keep it simple.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

John 10
My sheep know my voice and follow me, and a stranger they will not follow.

Ephesians 4
one Lord, one faith, one Baptism

Rev. 21
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Jesus said His people know his voice, they won’t follow another, He is Lord. There is only one faith, one baptism. There is no other theology acceptable if it changes who He is.

Jesus said if you try to go up any other way (because He is the Door) then you are a thief and a robber. Moroni was another way. Brigham Young said Joseph Smith was another way. Gordon Hinkley said there is another way.

There is only one Jesus Christ, this one Jesus Christ is the Word, He is God, He is man, He was, and is and is to come. This Jesus Christ cannot change. It is blasphemy to change the very nature and character of Jesus then use that changed description to build a religion around that difference.

Jared, please if you love Jesus then accept who He is from the Bible. Please search the Bible to discover just who He is. If you say you are my brother in Christ, then you know I have a Bible commandment to exhort you in the faith. I deeply and humbly ask you to see Jesus as He is written in the Bible.

Acts 1
1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This Jesus that went away is coming back as He went. Not another kind, not another description, not one with a different nature and character, not one contrary to the word. This is the one we are to be looking for.

Mormonism is not Christian.

Are there Christians, can there be Christians in the Mormon church?

Of course! God is not so wimpy that He can’t act to choose people even where is Word is extremely weak. He knows the hearts of those whom He chooses.

Christians do not judge the hearts of men/women. We just don’t. Jesus told us not to.

But it is our job to point out false doctrine and to hold up Jesus Christ as the only judge.

Jesus is after faith.

It is a lot tougher to have faith in the work of Christ on the cross within a tradition that places other things (like personal obedience to the law) in competition to faith, and in competition to that work on the cross.

Alma,

You said, “Whoever your correspondent was who claimed that God had “flesh and blood” was mistaken. It is doctrine that resurrected beings do not have blood in their bodies.”

I did make a mistake, it was “flesh and bones”, not flesh and blood. However, that doesn’t change the point being made that the Father had sex with Mary.

Steve Martin: “Christians do not judge the hearts of men/women. We just don’t. Jesus told us not to.”

Well, yes and no. Jesus gave us the Great Commission in Matthew 28:

18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Intrinsically implicit in the Great Commission is the command to judge or discern righteously whether others are even a true disciple of Christ. If not, then the Evangel is to be given and shared.

As you wrote, “Mormonism is not Christian,” then it’s prudent to assume and judge that a significant majority of Mormons are not Christians, and that it’s quite biblically appropriate to evangelize Mormons.

Alma,

Even if it is true in Mormon doctrine that a woman can enter the Celestial Kingdom withought her husband calling her forth, that is again not a doctrine that is found anywhere in the Bible. In the Bible each one stands totally on his own before God as a believer or an unbeliever and no one has to depend on another person in any way for that.

This points up again one of the great differences between us. We accept only the Bible as our standard while you accept many other books and teachings also.

Jared,

You said, “You simply ASSUME that Jesus rejects people that don’t get theology right.”

That is not what I am saying. I am saying, again, that the views of God here are so different as to seemingly be talking about FUNDAMENTALLY different God’s. Is one God going to automatically accept worship given to a fundamentally different God? That is my whole point.

You also said, “This is all very much beside the point. If the Bible is THE standard, where is its guidance on who is Christian, is there anything that clearly states how we can tell how we can know if we are disciples of Jesus?”

Again, my question would be, which Jesus are we talking about being a disciple of??

Kara said in her last comment, “This Jesus that went away is coming back as He went. Not another kind, not another description, not one with a different nature and character, not one contrary to the word. This is the one we are to be looking for.” I agree with her completely.

At any rate, at this point I think it is time for me to back out of this conversation, at least for the time being. It has been interesting. But the more we have talked and the more I have read, the more I realize that our differences are indeed huge. When you have a basically or fundamentally different view of who the Father and Jesus are; who man is, how he came to be, where he is going and who he is becoming; and the place and significance of the Bible in our lives there is no way that we can agree. And while we use a lot of the same terms, they often have a vastly different meaning so that we are constantly talking past each other.

Thanks for your time.

The cross of Christ is not central to the Mormon doctrine as the teachings of Joseph Smith are. Baptism for the dead is a case in point that negates each believers need to personally come to the cross of Christ in repentance BEFORE they die, in order to be saved. If I can just be baptized by those left alive after I’m gone, why would on earth would the world ever have needed the sacrifice of Christ for sin in the first place?

That to me is the central point in separating the two belief systems, one which cannot be adequately explained away.

I follow and worship the Jesus of the Bible.

mBaker- you have no clue as to what Mormon thought about Baptism on the Dead is. Mormons believe that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ and everyone will have an opportunity to accept their baptism. Baptism for the dead was commanded by God. That is why Mormons do it. I get that you don’t believe that.

Kara, Steve, Divides, Cheryl and Michael:

I recognize that you will always misunderstand Mormonism. I also recognize that even if you did understand it you would find it to be quite different than what you believe. It is supremely boring to try to correct all of the errors and understanding, and I am not really interested in that at all. I don’t think we are talking past each other on what Mormons believe, you are trying to tell me what Mormons “really” believe and why its wrong and bad, and I have studied and thought about these things my entire life and know that Mormon teaching may be unorthodox and heretical to you, but it seems to be as supported by the Bible as what you believe. I don’t have any interest in convincing you of that.

My purpose and interest in this entire discussion is to try to bring out a point made by Jesus, not by the doctrinal commentators.

The clearest statement by Jesus about who is his disciple is in John 13:35-
“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

After the Sermon on the Mount he is quoted in Matthew 7:

15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

In John, Jesus gives this definition:

34 A new commandment. I give to you,(that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”John 13 34-35 (NIV)

Again in John, Jesus is quoted as saying that the choice to do the will of God was the path to understanding if Jesus was really of God, as opposed to relying on your interpretation of scripture the Pharisees were doing) :

John 7: (NIV)16Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.

17If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

18He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

He does not say: ” By this shall men know that you are my disciples, if you have the correct creed and teaching about my true substance” or ” By this shall people know that you are my disciples, if you belong to my one and only true church”.

I think there are plenty of people that claim to follow Jesus but don’t, and are caught up in policing the theology of others, or policing the conduct of others, or being “right” theologically or “righteous” in their lives. Perhaps most people who try to follow Jesus fall into these categories at times and focus on their own understanding.

I think that is pretty clear from my search of the Bible that even if you believe in “strange” un-biblical doctrines (such as the trinity, evolution, three heavens, an embodied God, baptism for the dead, etc., multiple Gods), this is not particularly relevant to whether you are a follower of Jesus and a Christian. Ultimately we only know in part now anyway (1 Corinthians 13) its not whether we get theology wrong (we all do) it is just a matter of degree. I can’t see How Jesus would even care about who we thought His brother was, or whether we thought he was a single substance with the Father so long as we are His followers.

Jared,

Once again, thank you for your response. Some comments
1) “Traditional Christianity holds that Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit are three personages of equal power and glory.” Correction: Father, Son and Spirit. If so, absolutely
2) “I disagree that traditional Christianity is truly monotheistic”. You may disagree but for 2,000 years Christians have held this belief. Anyone who doesn’t, I would call non-Christian.
3) “Do you grasp for the unbiblical, completely unexplainable doctrine of the Trinity, or do you explain their unity in terms of what Jesus said in the scriptures.” The Trinity is a human and therefore not perfect, attempt at reconciling the view of ONE God in three persons. When Augustine wrote his “De Trinitate”, around 400 CE, the concept was already quite prevalent in Christian environments. The fact that the Word “Trinity” does not appear in the Bible itself does not make it less true for the Christian faith. The concept itself is quite prevalent all througout the new Testament.
4) “This is why Muslims consider them polytheistic.” False. I work with a lot of them and have firsthand experience. Even though they only accept Jesus as a good prophet, and they don’t understand how we can call Christ God, they do accept we are mono-theistic. They just believe that our attempt at explaining it is not very convincing.

As long as you see Jesus Christ in a poly-theistic perspective, which you still haven’t admitted, you will have a different opinion. Just like Muslims have a different perspective since they don’t accept the deity of Christ. You accept the deity of Christ, but as just ONE of the DIFFERENT deities. And that is a non-Christian approach.

In addition, which would go back for instance to question #1 in my little shortlist. When you believe and accept that in the afterlife you can become a god (small or capital G), that you can raise people from the dead, that you will have an entire “planet” or “system” to rule, etc.. those are EXTRA biblical concepts. And adhering to EXTRA biblical concepts is what makes Mormonism non-Christian.

When Luther mentioned “Sola Scriptura” it was exactly that same concept he opposed. We have misused the term. Luther protested the fact that the Roman Catholic church in the 1500’s was using a lot of extra biblical material to guide people. Since the reformation we have rejected that as being truly Christian.

All 10 questions highlight that you have a worldview influenced by extra-biblical material and accept more than Scripture as truth.

In Summary, Christianity would say
“Christ Alone”, not others such as other prophets.
“Scripture Alone”, not other writings
“Grace Alone”, not other works, actions and activities.

This post is about whether or not Mormonism is a true representation of Christianity. Not about whether someone from LDS can be saved. Doesn’t mean right or wrong. But stop calling yourself a Christian. It’s a non-nonsensical debate. Just like I can’t call myself a Mormon.

We can always start a separate post on “What does it take to be saved ?” I know MCP had a post previously on whether gays, etc.. can be saved. But I couldn’t find it.
Or another post on “The differences in interpretation on the nature of Christ” and let’s invite some Muslims, Jews, BUddhists and even a Zoro-astrianist to it. Now THAT would be a great debate.

In Him

In Summary, Christianity would say
“Christ Alone”, not others such as other prophets.
“Scripture Alone”, not other writings
“Grace Alone”, not other works, actions and activities.

This definition would exclude the majority of the people in the world that consider themselves Christian. (and its not biblical, its simply derivative of an interpretation of the bible)

Jared,

Can you provide specific scriptural back up for this statement you made?

“Baptism for the dead was commanded by God.”

Thanks.

Jared C.

Exactly !

I wouldn’t say the majority thoug. I would say most Protestants adhere to that, most Eastern Orthodox, quite a lot of Catholics (even though works is a bit of an issue there), etc

It’s back to my “I’m an American” example. I can call myself anything I want, but if for the last 500 years someone has accepted a definition of what it means, little good does it do me to come up with something new.

You accept the revelations given to Joseph Smith as God’s word. We don’t. Hence we’re not the same. One is Christian, the other one not. My point, based on at least 2,000 year of tradition, is that the ones adhering to those 3 are Christian. Mormons are not.

Once again, don’t assume I mean that you’re saved or not, that your interpretation of Christ is right or wrong, etc… just that Mormon faith is not a true representation of what Christianity is.

in Him

Here is the circle we are running in.

1. Evangelicals say Mormons aren’t christian because they don’t follow “traditional” christian beliefs

2. Mormons disagree, we believe we have the “correct” interpretation of the Bible, and that Evangelicals are limited by their traditional notions rather than what the Bible really says.

3. We have a never-ending discussion about why we have the correct interpretation.

We are not going to resolve this gap. Mormons will always believe that Protestantism is severely limited and blind to the full truth and Protestants will always think Mormons are extra-biblical. Mormons will tell you the only way to find the truth is to search diligently from all sources and listen to the Spirit rather than tradition.

Believe me, I have heard all of these arguments dozens of times and I have made a real effort to understand where Evangelicals are coming from, but until you do the same your arguments will be wildly off the mark.

However, we don’t have to agree on theology in order to come up with a “Christian” definition of Christianity i.e. a definition of Christianity coming from Jesus, not something that is derivative from other people’s commentary or tradition.

I am open to hearing anything that Jesus had to say on the subject and an explanation of that.

I am not saying you can’t come up with your own definitions of “Christian”, I am just saying they will not be “Christian” definitions unless they come from Christ. We may not interpret what Jesus had to say on this subject precisely the same but I think its worth going there first to seek common ground.

Jared,

Could you answer the question I asked in #183?

Thanks.

Cheryl asked: “Can you provide specific scriptural back up for this statement you made?

“Baptism for the dead was commanded by God.”

The practice originated from Joseph Smith reading the bible in 1 Corinthians 15:29 : Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

And

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

He then asked God what this was all about and received revelation to start the practice within the Temple:

Doctrine and Covenants section 127:

And again, I give unto you a word in relation to the baptism for your dead.Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning your dead: When any of you are abaptized for your dead, let there be a brecorder, and let him be eye-witness of your baptisms; let him hear with his ears, that he may testify of a truth, saith the Lord;

So, God revealed to Joseph Smith that it is his will that his Church start doing this again.

Hope that helps.

sorry Cheryl, it was mbaker who asked.

Jared C

Once again thank you. Your three points are exactly correct. And I am glad we got there.

One thing though: “I am just saying they will not be “Christian” definitions unless they come from Christ.”

If you can point out where Christ mentioned that we should accept
1) Other prophets besides Him
2) Other statements outside of His words
3) The notion that there are multiple levels in Heaven
4) That Jesus and Michael were the same person
5) That Lucifer was his brother
…
Until such time, I would say you believe a bunch of things that Christ never mentioned…. so where does that leave you as a Christian according to your own understanding ?

It’s not what you believe about Christ that’s the crux of the challenge. It’s all the OTHER stuff you believe that is contradictory to what Christ said. That is what makes in non-Christian. It becomes a “Christ Plus” kind of faith. And that is against what Christ himself taught us.

I hope you see the challenge in that.

Yours in Him
Mick

Jared,
You almost got the verse right. It is “Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father”.

And now we are getting into real meat of scripture. Was Paul referring to the dead people in the ground? No, because they have already met their judgment.”It is appointed unto man once to die, then after this the judgment”. And this is where you have to understand…he was talking about me, about you, about Steve, Cheryl, Alma and every person.

We have the old man nature which is walking death. We were born as this dead person, but through Jesus we have now become a new creature and have now come alive. Even if my fleshly body were to die right now, I have the assurance of eternal life. But not with the corrupt flesh. That is the dead that Paul was talking about.

Did Jesus die? As a man, yes He did. Did He resurrect as a man? Yes He did. And to make it more interesting, at the earthquake at his physical death, many of the graves of the old saints were opened and they resurrected and came out and began to preach.

Romans 6

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We have to be physically dead to be free from sin? Or can we through Jesus Christ walk daily in newness of life? We have a new life.

Colossians 2
6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

He is the fullness of the Godhead, bodily.

1 Corinthians 15
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

That was what was left out. All those who slept is past tense. Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life, he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live”.

We are dead in trespass and sin, when we heard the voice of Jesus saying “Believe in me, repent and be born again” We did just that and are now alive. As I have been baptized into (not unto) Christ, I was baptized into HIS death, not mine. I was resurrected and the old person died and I became a new person.
You must understand that you will not enter into heaven unless you are born again. That is a commandment of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said that self-righteous people are like sepulchers, white on the outside but inside full of dead men’s bones.

Jared, you would probably like to think we all were Christians all our lives. That because we were in a home the practiced Christian traditions that made us automatically Christian. No, it did not, and to think like that is a great disservice. Christian does not mean Christ-follower as some people would like to think, it means Christ-likeness. And what does that mean?

Many people can follow the teaching of Jesus Christ, even Muslims and Hindus. That is a great folly to stop at that point. We have to actually listen to what He is saying. And we have to do it.

Galatians 3
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We must put ON Christ. Him, the Lord Jesus, we must put Him on. If we are to live, we must. We can’t be baptized for someone else, that has been done already for us. You can’t undo the baptism of Jesus by John.

“Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”.

Mick,
“Until such time, I would say you believe a bunch of things that Christ never mentioned…. so where does that leave you as a Christian according to your own understanding ?”

I think your reasoning is a bit silly, EVERYBODY believes things that Christ never mentioned.

We only have a very scant record of the things Jesus said and they are focused on very few topics. My point is that we should look at those topics first before we create derivative definitions of who is a disciple of Jesus.

Jesus said “By this shall men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another”

I think that has to be the start of any definition of Christianity.

For my view on the subject see this post:http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/are-evangelicals-really-christians/

As for the list, which is still totally beside the point:

1) Other prophets besides Him – You are kidding right? are you saying we need to disregard everything in the Bible but the quotes from Jesus?

2) Other statements outside of His words – See above.

3) The notion that there are multiple levels in Heaven – Paul spoke of this to the Corinthians. Jesus himself gave a vision of this to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon.

4) That Jesus and Michael were the same person – Mormons don’t believe this, we believe that Michael and ADAM were the same person. You are thinking of Jehova’s witnesses.

5) That Lucifer was his brother- Jesus is the son of God, Lucifer is the spiritual child (creation) of God. This could be seen as a “brotherly” relationship.

…

Kara said:

” Jared, you would probably like to think we all were Christians all our lives. That because we were in a home the practiced Christian traditions that made us automatically Christian. No, it did not, and to think like that is a great disservice. Christian does not mean Christ-follower as some people would like to think, it means Christ-likeness. And what does that mean?”

I agree with this 100%

This sounds like what I have been taught in the Mormon church all of my life.

http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/are-evangelicals-really-christians/

looks like my reply got lost ? I’ll repost ?

Second try. If it appears twice, my apologies:

Jared C.

Thank you for the reply, and I absolutely stand corrected on Nr 4. I meant Adam and Michael as you point out. It was btw question 2 on my questionnaire in post 129. Now that I have indulged you, I think it’s fair you would come back with your answers 😉

Your reply to the third point is exactly the challenge:

“Jesus himself gave a vision of this to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon. ”

Mormons accept that. I don’t. Why ? Because the BIBLE warns me against it.
Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 6, 1John 4 and throw in 2Peter 2 for good measure.

It’s non-biblical.

Would you say that a Catholic who adheres to the “infallibility of the Pope” is correct ? After all, popes have been around a lot longer than Joseph Smith.

I hope you see the point. The challenge I see is that Mormons see Christ through the colored spectacles of Joseph Smith. Just like Catholics see Christ through the pontifical glasses, Muslims see Christ through Mohammedan glasses, etc.

If there are any things in those glasses that contradict the Scriptures, I believe they’re wrong and non-Christian.

And btw I grew up in a very strong Catholic country. No protestants around, no Mormons. So my glasses were very much tainted at one time.

I invite you to throw away the glasses, start afresh and take the Bible first, then match it against other writings. Read some other stuff like Athanasius, Augustine, Polycarp, etc… They’ve been around much longer than popes or Joseph Smith. If then there’s discrepancies, the book you adhere to will define who you are. If it’s Scripture, Christian. If it’s another book… something else.

Now, do I believe stuff that’s not in the Bible. Absolutely ! But theological things ? I hope not, lest someone points them out to me !

God Bless

PS Jared C

I’ve been reading the blog link you posted. Lots of interesting stuff on there. I will pick a couple of lines and post here for others to read, but would you like me to engage here or there ?

Arguably challenging :
1) My argument is that there is only one requirement to be a disciple of Christ, i.e. endeavoring to put Christ’s words into practice and by loving one another.
2) I like what is said because it seems to provide both a method of verification of the doctrine as well as a path to enlightenment that can be tested through practice.

Very, very encouraging
1) Faith is an active belief. Jesus doesn’t seem to endorse anything less.

And once again… anything I have written here is not a personal direct attack, attempt at conversion or honing my skills in debate. Accept my sincere apologies if it came across that way.

As mentioned at the beginning, I have a quite a lot of Mormon friends. I have always found the debate very stimulating for both parties. I’d be more than happy to go over there and continue (it’s less crowded as well LOL 😉

In Him

Mick,

I don’t take anything you have said personally. You seem to be pretty reasonable, even if I disagree 😉

You are welcome over at ldstalk.wordpress.com

The head Blogger is an Evangelical but we don’t have enough Evangelicals over there as it is.

1) If you were to find a contradiction between the Bible and any of the following three books to wit, the book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price. Would you admit the Bible is correct while the others are wrong ?

No,

2) Is Adam the same person as Michael, also known as the prince, the archangel ?

Yes

3) Do you, yes or no, accept the existence of telestial, terrestrial and celestial heavens.

Yes,

4) Can a woman, yes or no, reach the celestial heaven without her husband

yes

5) Can anyone who is not a member of the LDS reach the celestial heaven

yes

6) Are Jehovah and Elohim one and the same

no

7) Do you believe in the virgin birth eg. no physical being besides Mary was required for the birth, eg Elohim did not have sex with Mary

not sure what happened there.

Is Jesus a created being or has He existed forever since before the start of time ? (I will take “Created” or “Forever” as an answer instead of “Yes” or “No”)

Forever

9) Is there only one God for the entire world, galaxy, universe, all the planets, start, comets and everything in it ?

Not sure

10) Can I ever gain equal footing with God ?

No

Jared

Thanks for the responses. I also posted a quick reply on your other blog. The question here and the one on your blog are quite different. And deserve different responses.

I will comment on your responses here and what I believe it implies for answering the question “Is the mormon faith a true representation of Christianity”.

I elaborated on question 9, based on Alma’s comments. I will elaborate on question 1, based on your comment.

Considering the fact that Mormons, in general, hold to other scripture as inerrant and elevate it in truth above the Bible, it would make it not Christian.

It’s back to Luther, the Roman Catholic adherence to concilium statements etc. That is what “Sola Scripture” means. It means the Bible trumps it all. It’s why we accepted a canon 1,700 years ago. It’s part of Christianity. One doesn’t have like it or agree with it. Or even adhere to it. But then it’s not Christianity.

Doesn’t mean, once again, an individual person can’t be a Christian or “be saved”, but that’s a whole different ball of wax.

I hope you can see my reasoning, as flawed as it may be.
In Him

PS: It’s interesting that from all the responses I’ve collected from Mormons and non-Mormons, the Mormon ones seem to show more difference amongst each other. Compare yours to Alma’s. Assuming you are Mormon. Perhaps one day I’ll publish complete statistics somewhere. I’d like to reach 100 or so to make it somewhat meaningful before I publish. Patience 😉

Jared,
As much as this has been interesting and informative, I will have to wait for a much more pleasant conversation. We all know that your Jesus and our Jesus are different.

I will leave you with this weblink and if you still disagree, then disagree with someone who used to be Mormon.

http://www.lifeafter.org/

We will continue to remain Christian, and we will defend it, but we really don’t have to as we have a great Defender for us.

The challenges we presented were that Joseph Smith was a liar. We have shown you from the Bible and Mormon sources that he was. We have shown that the lies are perpetuated from prophet to prophet using Mormon sources. We have challenged every book created by LDS and you have fallen back on them every time.

What more can we say to you? Nothing, because now it is up to you. You heard the truths of the Gospels and rejected them when they contradicted the BoM.

If there is no more than I can say, I will say the foundation of the Mormon church is based on half-truths, outright lies, false revelations and evolving doctrine.

But you Jared, should I offend you? No, not in who you are as a person. But I shall offend your church. If your leader were in front of me right at this moment, I would call him a liar because he perpetuated lies. He continues to teach a lie.

Jared, this is not intended to be cruel or condescending but I will stand in defense of the Gospel. I have to lift Jesus up so that He may draw all men unto Him.

2 Timothy 3

1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their’s also was.
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Don’t stray away from the scriptures already taught by Jesus. Extra-Biblical is wrong.

Kara,

Just a quick question for you–is there a particular place on that website you are referring to? It is rather large. Thanks.