Is the Mormon Faith a True Representation of Christianity?

Divides,

Michael L. did not demonstrate that Mormons aren’t Christian, he demonstrated that they are not Christian according to his definition of christianity

There are all kinds of definitions of “Christian” my inquiry is what Jesus taught on the subject, not the derivative theology of a particular sect.

I am happy to accept that Mormons aren’t christians if you can show me (1) a definition taught by Jesus (not your theology), and (2) How Mormons don’t fit that definition. We have established that Mormons don’t fit your definition of christianity (surprise!). My question is who fits Jesus’ definition.

I am not interested in the “Mormons don’t interpret the Bible correctly” arguments. I have enough information about the Bible (I read both the KJV and the NIV) and bible commentary to know that there is no uniform interpretation of the Bible and everybody seems to think that theirs is correct.

Personal attacks on Joseph Smith mean nothing to me too. . . I don’t think it matters much if Joseph Smith believed in magic or men on the moon, etc. Calvin is still considered a (the?) pre-eminent theologian around here even though he could be considered an intolerant bigot who approved of capital punishment for divergent religious opinions.

From my plain reading of the Bible, the typical protestant interpretation is completely off the mark. But I am open to hearing more if you can start with what Jesus said rather than what people interpret Jesus to say about who is a Christian.

My question is who fits Jesus’ definition.

NOT Mormons.

“Only those who believe in the real Biblical God and Jesus Christ have legitimately can use the name “Christian.” The Mormon prophets historically have openly ridiculed those of us who believe in the God, Jesus and Holy Spirit that the Bible reveals.

One question that I would ask all Mormons to ask themselves is this: “If I accept you as a Christian, will you accept me as a Mormon?” Would you accept me as a Mormon if I reject Joseph Smith and all the LDS prophets as being prophets of God. If I do not believe in the Book of Mormon or the LDS Scriptures, baptisms for the dead, the temple endowments, the LDS gospel. . .would you accept me as a Mormon? If I were a Mormon and rejected the LDS church’s teachings would I in fact be a Mormon?

And suppose that I started a new religion which was totally different in doctrine from the LDS church, to the extent that I even denied the true identity of who was the LDS god, would you think me to be a Mormon? The answer is obviously, you would not. In like manner, when Mormonism denies the Bible and every Christian doctrine do you think that biblical Christians should accept Mormons as Christians? Again the answer is very obvious, no we will not. You cannot legitimately claim to be Christians when you refuse to accept what the Bible teaches and a true Christian believes.

I would implore Mormons to honestly and openly examine their teachings about God and Jesus Christ and who the Bible defines as being a Christian. There is no benefit in calling yourself a “Christian” when biblically you are not.

Excerpted from here.

Jared,

Did you read the article that I linked to in comment #42 above?

If what is reported in that article is correct about the way revelations changed that were supposedly given by God, doesn’t it raise some rather huge questions? It seems that sometimes these changes were even made to seem that they were given that way originally. It was speaking specifically of those of Joseph Smith. How then can you not question his integrity AND more importantly the integrity of his supposed revelations from God?

If I remember rightly from the link to a blog that you gave us a while ago where evangelicals and mormons regularly dialog, you are a lawyer. Am I correct? You wouldn’t begin to accept such changing stories and duplicity from a witness in a court room trial as the truth would you? I should hope not or I certainly would never want you to be my defence lawyer if I was in need of one! Seems to me that these facts alone raise way more than “a reasonable doubt” on the validity of Mormonism.

Regarding my comment # 54 above, my last sentence needs to be changed to say, “Seems to me that these facts alone, if they are indeed correct, would raise way more than “a reasonable doubt” on the validity of Mormonism.”

Jared
“Personal attacks on Joseph Smith mean nothing to me too. . . I don’t think it matters much if Joseph Smith believed in magic or men on the moon, etc.”

It should matter to you because he’s the one who made your church, should it not matter what this man believed? Yes, because his teachings are the foundation of the Mormon Church. It does seem to bother you that we are questioning him. Hence, what I am saying…
no Joseph Smith…no Mormonism.

We are supposed to bring into the light those deeds and works of evil men because the Bible says that we should. It is now over 150 years since he died and the Mormon Church still relies on what he said. He is the foundation of Mormonism so he is to be brought into question. He must answer to the millions of people who blindly follow him in his fantasy.

Jared, you don’t realize just how much Jesus loves you. And He said He did outside of the BoM. I for one have a great deal of care for you because from the first moment you entered into the discussion you have always answered. Jared, we are striving for your soul now. We are calling out for you to hear the words of Jesus.

Romans 13
11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Jared,
when we stand before Jesus at the Judgment seat…will he ask me if I believed the BoM, where will I stand?

Cheryl,

I read that article and many others along the same lines.

Divides,.

You still are not giving me anything Biblical. You are saying:

1)You are only a Christian if you have our understanding of Jesus
2) You don’t have our understanding of Jesus
Therefore 3) you are not Christian.

This is simply saying “I am right, you are wrong”.

I get that. I don’t see the point in repeating it.

My question, again, is where did JESUS HIMSELF say any of this? ?

All I get is recycled anti-mormon arguments in response.

If your definition of Christianity is so bullet-proof, why can’t you come up with a clear statement from Jesus that you are right.

I am reading the bible and I can’t find where he says anything like what you are saying. I am certainly open to being enlightened.

John,

I appreciate the quotes, tell me how I get from those quotes to a definition of Christianity or to understanding if my understanding is false?

Kara,

I don’t believe Joseph Smith is the author of Mormonism, if God was not its author then its not worth anything. I only believe in Mormonism so long as the Spirit of God backs it up.

. .
“when we stand before Jesus at the Judgment seat…will he ask me if I believed the BoM, where will I stand?”

I don’t know that he will care whether or not you believe the Book of Mormon. Very few people really have read it and understand it enough to have a educated opinion on that.

God is just, so I don’t expect any condemnation for failing to believe in the BoM.

I am sure you will be fine. You are a Christian right?

” Jared, you don’t realize just how much Jesus loves you. And He said He did outside of the BoM. I for one have a great deal of care for you because from the first moment you entered into the discussion you have always answered. Jared, we are striving for your soul now. We are calling out for you to hear the words of Jesus.”

I am striving for my own soul, I hear and love the words of Jesus, I believe that God is love.

I do appreciate what you have told me and what you have said to me.

If I stand before Jesus and say that I believed in the Book of Mormon an Joseph Smith, is that enough to send me to Hell?

Is he going to ask me if I believed that he was inexplicably part of the same substance with his father before he shows me any of his love?

Jared,

Quoting you again, “I read that article and many others along the same lines.”

But you didn’t answer any of my questions regarding this article.

Do you believe it is true or do you believe it is false? If you believe it is true, what do you do with the implications of it that I raised in my comment?

Some of comment 258 was a response to Cheryl.

Cheryl U: “Truth Unites,

You know, that assertion that the revelations that Joseph Smith received kept changing is something that keeps coming to my mind too.”

Cheryl,

In learning more about Joseph Smith and his changing stories (which means that he isn’t a credible witness except to the brainwashed) I learned that Mormonism teaches about a planet Kolob. Can you believe that???!

“Two obstacles must be overcome in understanding Mormon doctrine. The first is historical. Because of changes brought about through ongoing revelation, Mormon doctrine is inconsistent and even self-contradictory. The 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon initially remained doctrinally close to orthodoxy. It declared God to be one, to be spirit, and to be unchangeable in his decrees. Christ was presented as a divine being who is one with the Father. It declared polygamy abominable and commended monogamy as the rule for marriage. Salvation was said to consist of repentance, baptism, remission of sins, and the reception of the Spirit. The unsaved were thought to have no second chance for salvation after death. Yet within a few years, Joseph Smith changed his mind about each of these doctrines. Subsequent Mormon seers and revelators have made additional changes.

The Planet Kolob….

The second obstacle in understanding Mormonism is language. Mormons radically redefine traditional Christian terminology to fit their altered doctrine. It is extremely important to bear this in mind when talking with a Mormon. The God of Mormonism is not the God of Christianity, but a finite, resurrected man with a physical body who lives on the planet Kolob. The Christ of Mormonism is not the Christ of Christianity, but the literal spiritual and physical son of God. Mormons call Christ their elder brother believing that, like themselves, his spirit was begotten celestially by God through intercourse with a heavenly mother. They believe Christ’s incarnation resulted from God having sexual intercourse with Mary.

“And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that (the earth) upon which thou standest.” Pearl of Great Price 3:2-3

Planet Kolob. U.N.B.E.L.I.E.V.A.B.L.E.

By the way Jared, I gave an answer to some questions that you asked about how you could know whether Mormonism is wrong and you are right. I didn’t answer your questions lightly and I answered them as I would answer one who was truly looking for answers.

Have you given what I said any thought? You have not commented.

Some of it is true:

Implications: I don’t believe that many of Joseph Smith’s revelations came directly from the mouth of God without his own interpretation being mixed in.

Just as I don’t believe that most of the teachings and Revelations of the bible are without the prophet’s human mark on the words.

When Joseph said “Thus saith the Lord” he is saying “Thus saying the Lord, according to me” What the Spirit of God will back up I can consider from God, what it won’t I can consider to be misguided.

The fact that Joseph didn’t get everything right, or overstepped his bounds doesn’t make all that he said false. People are people, and prophets are people too.

Divides:

“The God of Mormonism is not the God of Christianity, but a finite, resurrected man with a physical body who lives on the planet Kolob. ”

This is a false distortion, not one Mormon I have ever met believes this.

Cheryl asked: “You wouldn’t begin to accept such changing stories and duplicity from a witness in a court room trial as the truth would you? I should hope not or I certainly would never want you to be my defence lawyer if I was in need of one! Seems to me that these facts alone raise way more than “a reasonable doubt” on the validity of Mormonism.”

There is reasonable doubt as to the validity of Mormonism,

There is reasonable doubt as to the validity of Christianity

There is reasonable doubt as to the existence of God.

Yet I continue to believe in these things. Which doubts should I follow? Which doubts should I push aside and continue to believe?

The hard evidence for all three of propositions is very slim from a legal perspective. I figure that there has to be something more than dim history and interpretation of an ancient book to guide me.

Am I wrong?

Jared,

I’m sorry, but your answer in comment 64 seems to be quite circular to me. First you say that you don’t think J. Smith received his revelations directly from God without his own interpretations being mixed in. And you don’t think of the Bible any differently. After all, “People are people, and prophets are people too.”

In the next breath you say, “What the Spirit of God will back up I can consider from God, what it won’t I can consider to be misguided.” You are “people” too right? If the prophets chosen by God can get what God says wrong, how in the world do you think you are going to be sure of getting it right?

Divides,

the possibility of the existence of an inhabited planet called Kolob is more believable and has more scientific backup than the the possibility that there was a worldwide flood.

Do you accept that that happened?

Jared,

It seems to me, if you are indeed a lawyer, you would want a jury to decide the case strictly based upon the evidence. As a Bible believing Christian I would require much more proof that 2000 years of Christian belief can be changed on the word of one 13 year old boy called Joseph Smith.

Presenting it through the eyes of facts is where I can see there is a big difference between what Jospeh Smith claims happens, for which there were no witnesses, and the overwhelming historical, as well as biblical evidence, and accounts by hundreds of eyewitnesses that all the events in the Christian Bible took place.

Joseph Smith’s vision has no such backup. Yet, you claim that this account is more real reliable than the Bible’s. As a juror, I would not accept that as a strong enough evidence on which to decide a verdict.

Whereas, the Bible that Christians believe is the word of God was written over thousands of years, and despite the attempts to disprove it, every part of it has been discovered so far, even in different parts of the middle east, does not change.

It says that on the testimony of two or three witnesses a matter is established. This is a tenet of law in a court of law as well. Joseph Smith is unable to provide that, and therefore to me, as a Christian, what he claims remains strictly circumstantial, and therefore I would find it very questionable source, even as a non-Christian, based upon anything but circumstantial evidence.

God bless.

Cheryl,

you ask In the next breath you say, “What the Spirit of God will back up I can consider from God, what it won’t I can consider to be misguided.” You are “people” too right? If the prophets chosen by God can get what God says wrong, how in the world do you think you are going to be sure of getting it right?

Very good question.

I am not sure I am getting it right. . . and that makes me extremely skeptical that you can be sure that (1) you must be right and (2) Mormon belief must be wrong.

I accept that everybody’s belief system is going to be wrong in some ways.

Regarding comment # 64, remember I said, “Way more than a reasonable doubt”. Emphasis on the WAY MORE.

Changing stories and duplicity (to whatever degree this article was accurate–and you agreed some of it was) coming from the very founder of a religion cast way more than a little bit of doubt on its valididty to me.

“I accept that everybody’s belief system is going to be wrong in some ways”

I’m not arguing that point. My point is, and always has been, that Mormonism’s belief system is in many ways very fundamentally different than ours. So different as to turn the Father and Jesus into totally different beings.

mbaker,

You claim that there are “accounts by hundreds of eyewitnesses that all the events in the Christian Bible took place.”

I have not seen more than 4 accepted accounts of the history of Jesus’ life. (matthew, Mark, Luke and John) and three of these seem to be created largely based on one single account, i.e. The Gospel of Mark.

However, there are, in fact, hundreds of much more recent accounts that the events that defined Joseph as a prophet actually happened.

I think the evidence is equally strong, and equally weak.

I am more likely to accept a witness that was interviewed and cross examined over the course of their life, and where we have a record of that cross-examination, than I would accept the testimony of a witness where no such cross examination took place.

There are dozens of witnesses to the prophecies of Joseph Smith and the events of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and these accounts were tested over the course of the witnesses lives.

Hence, I don’t think Christian’s (evangelical or Mormon) get very far trying to argue their case in the same way you would argue a case at law.

There is only one witness of Paul’s vision that called him to the apostleship.

Paul himself.

And he started out brutally killing christians. . . should discount what he had to say based on this?

Cheryl,

I may be wrong but don’t you believe in the Trinity?

Doesn’t the doctrine of the Trinity consider Jesus and God totally different persons?

Jared,

You said:

“Hence, I don’t think Christian’s (evangelical or Mormon) get very far trying to argue their case in the same way you would argue a case at law.”

Nevertheless, to claim that Joseph Smith’s prophecies came true only on the basis of fellow Mormon’s testimony is indeed a weak case. Whereas, there are the accounts of Josephus and other historians of the time, even of non-believers, of Biblical events that occurred as stated. Therefore, the gospels are not only the accounts.

Cross examination, as I understand it from my husband, who is a constitutional law expert does not in itself a case make, because the accused is rarely if ever put on the stand for fear that he or she WILL be cross examined. Therefore, a case is not promulgated on that but on objective evidence obtained from outside sources.

Where is yours?

May I ask exactly how the doctrine of the Trinity fits into the conversation right now? Maybe I can answer your question better if I know what you are really asking.

There are far more witnesses that testify that Joseph Smith was a prophet, that they saw the plates that the Book of Mormon came from than there are witnesses that the Gospels are historically correct. Their testimony is far more detailed and current than centuries old footnotes from Josephus.

There are pages and pages of relatively contemporary accounts testifying to the divine origin of the Book of Mormon.

There may be third-party evidence that Jesus existed. But there is nothing to suggest that Jesus was resurrected outside of these accounts. The Gospels themselves appear to be second or third hand accounts of the events. If you are going the court route, the story of Jesus as Messiah is made based on very slim documentary evidence that would not even be admissible in Court.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think this is a reason not to believe in Jesus, I just don’t think you can accept the Bible as the strongest evidence that Jesus is God.

I think the Mormons have a stronger case that Joseph is a prophet called by Jesus Christ. In effect, in a court context, Mormonism is stronger evidence that the Bible is correct than history.

(readers, please think this through before you start writing off my reasoning on this issue)

That said, I don’t think the hard evidence for Mormonism or the truth of the Bible is even a preponderance of the evidence. There has to be something more than the text itself and the affidavits and testimonies of witnesses to really be compelling.

There has to be a witness from the Spirit of God. If you believe in Jesus for any other reason I would question the reasonableness of your position.

Cheryl,

you said: ” I’m not arguing that point. My point is, and always has been, that Mormonism’s belief system is in many ways very fundamentally different than ours. So different as to turn the Father and Jesus into totally different beings.”

From my point of view, the orthodox also believe that Jesus and God are different persons but of the same substance in some inexplicable way. That is the mystery of the Trinity.

I think you are trying to say that you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian. I can’t see how this is a biblical definition.

I understand your point and I fully agree with your point. However, being different brings us no closer to deciding who is “REALLY” Christian.

Saying that most Christians believe the way you do is false, Most who claim to be Christians are not Evangelicals . Saying that Mormons are different than historical Christianity does not get you there because the history of Christianity is filled with divergent beliefs that were politically established, not established specifically by God. The Catholic Church is the origin of orthodox belief, yet you reject their authority. I think the Catholic arguments seem stronger than yours if you are using history to decide what is the true representation of Christianity.

If you want to convince the outsider, who believes in the biblical teachings of Jesus, that you are the true Christians all I am saying is that you need to start there and only there. Otherwise it is extremely easy to dismiss your belief system in the same way you dismiss Mormonism.

Michael L. hasn’t convinced me, and I’m not a Mormon. Unless Michael has copyrighted the word “Christian”, Jared is free to call himself whatever he wants. I also fail to see where there is any question begging in Jared’s reference to the showing of love as being evidence of being a disciple of Jesus. What is he assuming about Mormonism and Jesus’ statement? Nothing. He is taking Jesus’ statement and asking who falls within that category. If Christians show love and can therefore be known as Jesus’ disciples, then why can’t Mormons who show that kind of love also be known as his disciples?

Furthermore, CMP has not defined what sort of Christianity is in view (no Catholics need apply?), or what he means by “true”.

I believe that true Christianity is a singlemined devotion to Jesus and Jesus alone. Consider Jesus’ words: “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:37-39). There are other, similar, passages in the Bible that declare that the true Christian’s obsession with Jesus reflected in the devaluation of all other relationships and objects of affection. The true disciple of Christ is one who prizes Christ above all else.

Our allegiance to Christ has two aspects: (1) our belief in certain truths about Jesus and our commitment to those beliefs, and (2) repentance, which is a switch of allegiances. The first aspect is revealed in those verses that speak of our belief and faith in Jesus. The New Testament does not seem to go beyond those two key aspects in describing who is and is not going to be resurrected to new life with Jesus.

The content of the first aspect, belief, seems to be limited but crucial. There is the identity of Jesus with God the father, and Jesus’ role in salvation: John 8:24 “believe that I [Jesus] am He”; He who has seen me has seen the father (can’t find the reference quickly); John 11:27 believe that He is the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world”; John 16:27 believe that He came forth from the Father; John 20:30-31 believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (also found in 1 John); Romans 10:9 confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord; 1 John 4:2 confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh”

Some of these a Mormon could believe (e.g., Jesus came in the flesh), but not others (the identity of Jesus and the Father). From what I’ve read in Mormon scriptures, Jesus would be the dividing line between them and those who belong to Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, Armenian, Protestant, and Pentacostal christianities (all of whom share the beliefs described above). For us, then, that would place Mormonism in the category of other variants of Christianity that have been rejected as “not true”, e.g., Arianism.

regards,
John

Jared, (regarding # 79)

Remember, I told you the best way I know how the way I believe you can put that to a very personal test. But you still haven’t, as far as I have seen anyway, commented on what I said there at all. You keep asking that we give you a way to find out if we are right or not, but when I did, you have seemingly ignored it.

And when I said most Christians, I was referring to most Evangelical or Protestant Christians. I’m sorry I was not clear on that. And yes, we believe differently on some things too–just as you as Mormons do. But nothing so big as changing the very nature of who God is.

John,

” I believe that true Christianity is a singlemined devotion to Jesus and Jesus alone. Consider Jesus’ words: “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:37-39).”

I like this, its seems to be a start of a good definition that we may be able to agree on, at least in part.

To me being a Christian seems to be transcendent than ascent to some particular creed. In fact, it seems that Jesus will choose his own, not the other way around:

Matthew 18:20 – For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

If He is there, then aren’t these people gathered his followers?

Cheryl,

Sorry I didn’t respond specifically (there is a lot being said). Tell me the comment # you are referring to and I will try to respond to the personal test you speak of.

” . . . And yes, we believe differently on some things too–just as you as Mormons do. But nothing so big as changing the very nature of who God is.”

Its hard for me to accept that protestants don’t disagree amongst each other on the nature of God. Most protestants I have spoken with don’t give a theologically accurate definition of the trinity. Most give me some form of the modalistic “heresy”. While denomenational authorities get it “right” the doctrine of the Trinity is so counter-intuitive that I have found few others that do.

Ultimately I think we all should be a bit more humble in our attempts to try to define the “nature of who God is”. I think that both Mormons and Evangelicals have very little to go on in describing precisely what kind of being God is.

Therefore, to me, agreeing on the description of the nature of God, seems a strange qualification for Christianity.

Didn’t Jesus say in John that God will come and dwell with those that follow Him? My guess is that God does not require us to have the right dogma before he will fulfill this promise to sincere followers who want to “give up their lives” for his sake.

Jared,
You asked in comment 259 “If I stand before Jesus and say that I believed in the Book of Mormon an Joseph Smith, is that enough to send me to Hell? ”

Yes Jared.

Revelation 21:27
27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Revelation 22:15
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Psalm 40:4
4Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Jared, the foundation Joseph Smith laid out for the Mormon Church was founded on falesehood, not according to the Christian people, but according the very Bible you claim to read and love. He made a lie.

He might have been called prophet, but he was a false prophet. He committed adultery, he committed idolatry, and he was a sorcerer. These are things we have proven to you over the course of this discussion.

Jared, every one of us must believe this epistle. When Joseph Smith made himself greater than Jesus, he became as any other cult leader. You must believe the Gospel to be saved, pure and simple.
If God were to give special grace to Joseph Smith, then He must give the same grace to Mohammad, Buddha, Jim Jones, David Koresh…and you name it. No one can exalt themselves above Jesus, no one.

And that is where we are at. The Book Of Mormon, a collection of translations and revelation by Joseph Smith. Either believe the Gospel or believe the BoM.

Jared, you might be offended at this. I gave you truth from the Bible and it is your choice to believe it or not. But if you believe the Bible then you must accept what it says. There is hope Jared but that hope is ONLY found in Jesus.

Joseph Smith is quoted “God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, NOR JESUS EVER DID IT. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409)

Read it Jared, what does it say? What did Joseph Smith say here?
Please open your eyes to what he did. He made himself greater than Jesus, and then told Mormons if they don’t believe him then they are not going to heaven.

He perverted the Gospel.

Galatians 1

1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Let Joseph Smith be accursed because he preached another Gospel. So you tell me Jared, where do we stand?

If I choose to believe another revelation, if I choose to believe outside the epistles, if I choose what is contrary to the Gospel then I face the judgment for it. I had to make the choice one day whether I was going to live with Jesus or without Jesus, I chose Jesus.

2 Timothy 1:12
12For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jared, you asked me the question and I answered it with the Bible and will not back down. There is hope for you, if you will just turn to the Bible and really believe it. God did not author the BoM. The Holy Ghost does not signify it. God is not contrary to Himself. God does not lie. Do you believe in Jesus? Then learn of Him from the Gospel because He is not in the BoM at all. That was just another
being that Joseph Smith called Jesus.

Jesus Himself established “creeds”, for example by claiming identity between Him and God the Father. And since Jesus establishes the content for our belief about Him it’s not optional. It goes to the core of who Jesus is and whether He could accomplish what He claims He did. If one does know Jesus, then one will acknowledge the truths about Jesus when one encounters them. To deny that Jesus is one with God the Father and to believe instead that he created by the Father and born of a sexual union is to not know Jesus. I think it is possible to have a mystical or other experience of / with Jesus and know and trust Jesus prior to much or any doctrinal content about Jesus, but the validity of that experience (did I meet the real Jesus) is revealed by the response one has to the truths about Jesus. Denial of those truths is a denial of Jesus.

Christians (in the nonMormon sense) are justifiably skeptical of Smith’s claims because Paul warns: “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:8). This warning describes the revelation to Smith in 1823 when an angel named Moroni, the son of the leader of a people called the Nephites who had lived in the Americas around 400 AD, appeared to Smith and told him that Smith had been chosen to translate a book written on golden plates by Moroni’s father. Smith claimed to receive the plates along with instructions to begin the translation, which was published in 1830 as the Book of Mormon.

regards,
John

Kara,

The quote that you are relying on does not at all say that Joseph considered himself higher than Jesus. If you think that then you are reading it out of context. No Mormon that I have ever known or ever heard of considers Joseph Smith anywhere equal to Jesus.

If you want to hear the background to the quote (as opposed to reposting it) I suggest you read here:

http://www.fairlds.org/Mormonism_201/m20117b.html

however, even if Joseph Smith was a liar as you say, does that make me a liar or whoremonger? Does Jesus hold Joseph Smith’s sins against me?

Also,

I disagree with you that the Spirit is not present among mormons. . . I can’t see how you could possibly know that the Spirit is not in Mormon meetings where they gather together in Jesus’ name.

His presence through the Spirit in these contexts is perhaps the only real reason I have to believe he is God.

John,

on Creedal qualifications for Christianity-

You said: “Jesus Himself established “creeds”, for example by claiming identity between Him and God the Father.”

The authors of this blog even disagree with you. . .

The least plausible way to understand John 10:30 is that it means that Jesus is the Father. Such an interpretation is clearly wrong, for several reasons. . . the utter lack of precedent for identifying Jesus as the Father, the distinction made repeatedly in the immediate context between Jesus and the Father, and the use of the neuter one (hen) lead to the conclusion that Jesus is not here claiming to be the Father.”

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/01/in-what-sense-are-jesus-and-the-father-one-part-i-one-in-person/

Are you going to hell if you don’t get this right?

Its almost as if many Evangelicals are saying that you can make all kinds of mistakes regarding theology and still claim the redeeming blood of Jesus. . as long as those mistakes weren’t also taught by Joseph Smith.

” To deny that Jesus is one with God the Father and to believe instead that he created by the Father and born of a sexual union is to not know Jesus. ”

Mormons don’t believe this.

Also, I think everybody is justified in being skeptical of Joseph Smith’s claims, (as we should be skeptical of Paul’s claims to visions and authority)

However Paul is not saying every angel that shows up must not be from God. Paul obviously believed that angels and visions, and even Jesus himself can appear and tell us the truth.

Jared,

You said:

‘I am more likely to accept a witness that was interviewed and cross examined over the course of their life, and where we have a record of that cross-examination, than I would accept the testimony of a witness where no such cross examination took place.”

We know that the one who is charged is rarely put on the stand by their defense, for the reason that their testimony rarely represents the truth, but always reflects what is in their own best interests.

There is a long history in the Mormon church by the elders of changing the truth of the Bible to fit their theology, beginning with Joseph Smith, rather than the other way around. Whereas the Christian church accepts, (at least the majority of it), the unchanging directives laid down by Christ and the apostles.

I prefer to listen to the Son of God, because His death on the cross assures me of forgiveness of my sins and eternal with him. No matter how venerated in the church Joseph Smith might be,and his visions and prophecies might be, he cannot assure me of eternal life.

That’s where the rubber meets the road, and no amount of arguing the benefits of Mormonism versus Christianity will change that.

Jared: “the possibility of the existence of an inhabited planet called Kolob is more believable and has more scientific backup than the the possibility that there was a worldwide flood.”

Jared, please provide believable scientific evidence for the inhabited planet called Kolob.

Thanks.

MBaker,

“I prefer to listen to the Son of God, because His death on the cross assures me of forgiveness of my sins and eternal with him.”

I agree with you 100%. I am not trying to convince you of the truth of Mormonism. I prefer to listen to the Son of God than all of the stuff derived from his words, including all of the protestant theology, catholic theology, or mormon theology.

You also appear to be under the false impression that Mormons consider Joseph Smith anywhere near the status of Jesus. I will repeat for the 4th or 5th time that I have never heard, nor read of any Mormon that considered Joseph Smith on par with Jesus.

My purpose in this conversation is not really to defend Mormonism or convince you of its truth.

I genuinely want to know if you Evangelicals are Christians and what you really think a Christian is.

All of the anti-mormon debate doesn’t really help me, especially when you all don’t seem to have any real grasp of Mormon history and just take ques from the anti-mormon debaters.

Notice that I am not trying to repeat the anti-protestant rhetoric of the Catholic church?

If you read by blog, or what I have written you should know that I am not a closed minded sort, I really am open to your way of looking at what a Christian is but I can’t see from your answers to my questions how you can square such an exclusionary view with my own experience and the Bible.

Jared you said in comment # 283 to please let you know the number of the comment that you hadn’t answered. It was #249.

Thanks. And you are right–there is a lot being said.

Cheryl said: “If you are truly looking for answers, I would recommend going back and reading the Bible again in a version that hasn’t been translated by Mormons. (My favorite is the New American Standard Bible version.) Read it as if you are reading it for the very fist time, trying to lay aside all the added revelations and teachings that have come through Joseph Smith and those since him. Read it with an open mind as if it may indeed be the final authority God has given us with no new revelations needed to further understand who God is, etc. There is a verse in the Bible that speaks of it being “living and active.” It is God’s Word and He can speak powerfully to us through it. You may be surpirsed at what you discover by doing this one thing alone.”

I think this is a good suggestion. I have read the Old and New Testament in the KJV (not translated by the mormons) I have read the Gospels completely several times, in the KJV and the NIV.

I am really open to hearing the voice of God through the Bible. I was surprised in many ways. That is precisely why I am looking for a biblical definition of Christianity. Why should I accept protestant dogma over Mormon dogma when the text speaks of something a bit deeper than the dogmatic debate.

I will keep reading.

Thanks Jared for your response. And I am praying for you that He will truly speak to you.

Jared, I would like to just leave you with one more thought and then it is off to bed for me for the night. You spoke of seeing something “a bit deeper than the dogmatic debate” in your reading of the Bible. You are right, there is more than a dogmatic debate going on. However, please remember that doesn’t negate the need for correct doctrine. I quoted this verse once before in this discussion, but I would just like to leave you with this reminder tonight:

I Timothy 4:16 “Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.” NASB

(The words doctrine and teaching are used interchangeably in different versions.)

Please note that Paul tells Timothy he needs to pay close attention to two things: himself and to his teaching. Why? So that he could ensure salvation both for himself and his hearers.

I hope you have a good night.

Cheryl,

I like that quote. reminds me of this one:

“. . Beware concerning yourselves, to give adiligent bheed to the words of eternal life. For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God. ”

have a good night yourself.

Jared,

The entire New Testament is a statement of what Christianity is defined as. It all revolves around the cross. I could not explain it better than that. I hope you will read it with that in mind.

God bless, and I pray you find the answer you seek.