Is the Mormon Faith a True Representation of Christianity?

Cheryl,
The whole site is created by an ex-mormon. I was just referring to it in general. Thanks for looking at it. Cheryl, read the names of gods he taught about…I could not believe he actually talked about Molech…and Amalek. Interesting that he would cleverly try to veil it from people who may not know what the Bible says about these particular deities. I was shocked that Joseph Smith got revelation about these demons, it was saddening.

I think I need to get a proof reader. I don’t seem to do so well at times myself!

Cheryl,
you are ok. 🙂

Kara,

I looked at the site, it is filled with distortions. It is anti-mormon propaganda, not unlike the anti-Christian propaganda out there.

You don’t offend me, I appreciate you sharing your experiences.

I trust in God that If you diligently seek him you will find, I find that He hangs out with some Mormons, I am not surprised that he hangs out with some Evangelicals as well,

I do think all of this contention regarding who has it “right’ is not really what Jesus was after at all. But I know the traditions you are coming from, born in violence and contention, so I don’t suppose I can’t expect any more.

I will leave you with the definition of Christianity that I believe in, and the way to find the “true” Jesus:

John 14:21
Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?”

Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. “

Those who “keep his Word” will dwell with God and will be guided by him. I think following any “prophet” true or false at times distract you from following the teachings of Jesus (whether it be Peter, Paul, Mark, John or Joseph Smith) I think the prophet, pastor or leader you follow is not particularly relevant if you, at the same time, put into practice the teachings of Jesus. God will be at home in you.

By my estimation, Joseph Smith appears as inspired as any Biblical author I have read. I think that even if he was heretical, if you follow his teachings in D&C 121 and put into practice the Sermon on the Mount, you are going to be a Christian and will be entitled to have God dwell with you. Not only that, I have seen and felt the presence of God in Mormons, in Mormon Churches and after praying in the name of the “Mormon” Jesus. What better witness can I have then from God?

Jared,
It is easy to say it is anti-Mormon because it is, the owners make no apology for that. The owners were former Mormon. How do you approach those who have left the Mormon faith? By my estimation Joseph Smith is not a prophet any more than one could say Father Divine or Jim Jones was.

But Jared, if your Mormon leaders are themselves confessing they do not worship Jesus of the Bible, then what Jesus are they following?
If it is not Jesus of the Bible, then why use His quotes. If it is Jesus of the Bible then it is in serious error to change His message.

Why would Brigham Young tell people that Joseph Smith is above Jesus of the Bible?

Jared, do you not see your own doubt? “Even if he were heretical, you should follow his teachings in D&C 121”. You just told me, even if he is a liar I should believe him? Even if he is in error, I should follow him?

You seem to think we are saying Joseph Smith is a heretic because he does not follow dogmas….no, we are saying he is a heretic because he taught lies.

Amos 2
4Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:

John 8
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Jared, through all of these discussions you have woven for us another thread into the mass blanket that covers you. Not us. You defend a man proven by scripture, by witness, by evidence, by his own admission to be false and yet you continue to defend him. Do you not see what we see? The truth, Jared, is never found in deception.

Joseph holds no keys, Joseph is not married to his celestial wives, Joseph was not martyred. Joseph was not versed in basic truths of the very Bible he plagiarized. He did not know Hebrew, and used the words wrongly when saying them. I will continue to condemn Joseph Smith for what he did. Am I anti-Mormon? No, I am anti-Joseph Smith and anti-Brigham Young I am allowed by the Bible to speak against them and I will.

Deuteronomy 32

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
5They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
6Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

15But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

27Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.
28For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
30How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?
31For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

1 Corinthians 10
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.

You can’t have it both ways. Either the Bible is true, or BoM is true. They are incompatible and contradictory.

Romans 3

1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

If you can prove to me without using any Mormon book that Joseph Smith is true, then I will repent.

Kara said,

” But Jared, if your Mormon leaders are themselves confessing they do not worship Jesus of the Bible, then what Jesus are they following?
If it is not Jesus of the Bible, then why use His quotes. If it is Jesus of the Bible then it is in serious error to change His message.

Why would Brigham Young tell people that Joseph Smith is above Jesus of the Bible?”

These are distortions. Brigham Young never proposed that Joseph Smith was above Jesus.

Mormons worship the Jesus of the Bible, we don’t worship the traditional notion of Jesus, which is NOT in the Bible. If you read the quotes in context you will understand that Mormons believe the Bible is the Word of God, but we interpret it differently than traditions. The Traditional Jesus, Trinity, etc. are derivative of the Bible, hashed out theological definitions that have been decided upon in an extra-biblical context.

I know we are going to disagree on how you see the Jesus of the Bible but Mormons and Evangelicals are still looking at the same Man.

I don’t know what to tell you. The way you come to an understanding of the truth about God is to ask Him in Faith. I have seen hundreds who have found Jesus in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and received answers from God. I know that does not sit well with some, but I can’t really deny that it is happening. Just as I cannot deny that you have had experiences with Jesus. That is why I can say with confidence some LDS are christians and some Evangelicals are Christians even though they don’t at all agree about how to interpret the Bible.

The actual experiences of people tells me that theology must not be that important to Jesus.

One final comment, since I feel we are starting to talk in circles and have way, way drifted from the original topic.

“Mormons and Evangelicals are still looking at the same Man”

So are Jews and Muslims and even certain atheists and agnostics.

It’s the understanding / interpretations that we have on who He is, what He did and what it means that makes us different.

Here is a Mormon quote that is rather difficult for me to accept:

“The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ”
Gospel Principles.
I find it rather interesting that this is no longer (from what I can find) in the current versions of the Gospel Principles study guide. Or at least not the one I could find online at lds.org

It would mean Christ is a BORN entity, in other words has a beginning, a starting point. Which means He’s not eternal. Which is against John 1.

And there’s more items along the same line in the same authorized “Bible” study material from the LDS Church. And I find it very interesting that this “Bible” study material references D&C as much, if not more, as the Bible.

Jared,
You mentioned we have an “extra-biblical” interpretation of who Jesus is. I’m sorry to say, but so do Mormons. And it is diametrically opposed.

And THAT is the crux (no pun intended) of the challenge.

All I can do is ask everyone, including Mormons, to look at the Bible and the Bible ONLY to form an understanding of who Christ is. Consider Joseph Smith a good biblical scholar if you want. Just like Augustine, Athanasius, Kempis, Schaeffer and hundreds more. But always remember biblical scholars are fallible. If you consider his writing infallible and true, at the same level as the Bible or higher, we will never reach common ground I’m afraid.

ONE God, in Three persons. Jesus not being “Created” (or born as a spirit) by the father, Elohim and Jehova being the SAME God. Those are our understandings, yours are different.

Can some Mormons be Christian. Of course they can.
Can some Evangelicals be non-Christians ? Of course they can.

And that is something we won’t ever find out here in this life. It’s a nice debate, but something I personally never will judge, lest I be judged. (Matthew 7)

I’m not a big “bible quoter” but I do like this one in this particular instance

Eph 1:
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,
18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might
20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Eph 1:17-20). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

May He bless us all with opening the eyes of our hearts !
Once again
In Him

I think saying it isn’t Christianity (it is a part of Christianity, if a heretical part) or calling it a cult is extremely pejorative and builds barriers to effective dialogue with Latter-day Saints

Shouldn’t this be more about accurate meaning of words than whether the usage of accurate terms upsets Mormons who want to avoid negative connotations? We need negative language to describe negative things.

And I’m not willing to let every new religion that is parasitical on existing foundations of Christianity distort basic Christian language without an ideological and rhetoric fight. That’d be irresponsible.

Every “heresy” that has been rejected by the church believed itself to be Christian and members of the church: arians, pelagians, socinians, gnostics, etc. So I think it’s rather pointless to try and convince an LDS that they are not Christian. However, it is entirely appropriate for the body of Christ to denounce their teachings as false and to refuse to have communion or worship with them. It also appears that though they may use the same words as Catholics, Protestants or Eastern Orthodox, they mean different things by them.

LDS reject parts of the Nicene creed. For example, they reject the phrase, “begotten, not made, one in being with the Father.”

LDS mean something different than historic Christianity when they use the word “begotten”. For Christians, the phrase “begotten, not made” is there to oppose the idea that the Son was a creation by God out of nothing. However, LDS believe Christ is “begotten” because all beings are begotten of god parents. LDS explicitly and definitively reject the “homoousion” of the members of the Godhead, that is, they reject the consubstantiality or oneness of being of the Son with the Father. LDS believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all separate and distinct beings and that the Father and Son each have a separate body (the Spirit doesn’t). For LDS, the Father, Son and Spirit are only “one” in the sense that they are perfectly united in purpose and will.

regards,
John

John,

I think you seem to have a pretty fair and accurate view of LDS belief. LDS do believe that Christ has existed for eternity, but we also believe all spirits have had an eternal pre-existence.

There is certainly a very different paradigm here.

I think the only reason for you to accept our paradigm over the traditional one is if you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet.

That is really the crux of the differences. If Joseph Smith was a prophet he would have the ability and authority to correct previous theological errors. If he wasn’t, he is shifting the paradigm on his own.

LDS will tell you the way to find out if Joseph Smith was a prophet, is to examine the Book of Mormon, compare it with the Bible and ask God if the Book is “true”.

Yes, Jared, by the same token it’s entirely fair for LDS to call historic (i.e., pre Joseph Smith history) Christianity in error and to call them back to what they believe is a more pure form of Christianity. It is no different, really, than evangelicals and pentacostals who call Christians back to the original church of Acts, or Protestants who broke from the Catholic (that word means “universal”) Church and who were in turn declared to be “anathema”. The official relationship between the Roman Catholic Church and the protestant churches is no different than that between protestant churches and the LDS church.

Of course, there may be many points of similarity between the RC church and the protestant church that are different from the LDS position on those points. Nevertheless, protestants are still officially anathema to the RC church and teachers of heresy.

Thank God there is no patent on the use of the words “Christ” or “Christian”, else protestants wouldn’t be able to use them either (RC’s would have patented them long ago). And I certainly don’t meant the same thing as an RC when I use the word “Christian” (sola fidei, anyone). So why should an LDS have to mean the same thing as me when they use the words? The fact that they use the word doesn’t mean that I can’t disagree with them, or believe that most of them are going to “hell”, or that I have to love them and witness to them.

Thanks Jared, for affirming that I got some things correct. I learned something from the exchange above (though it could’ve been far more informative and less rancorous), and did some reading before I commented myself (as did some of the commenters). There is an LDS church on a highway near where I live, but I can’t say that I’ve knowingly ever met one.

regards,
John

I meant “exchanges” above; i.e., all the comments, not just the one’s by Jared.

By the way, I am forced to use IE 6, which cuts off all numbers except the rightmost ones (of the numbers of the comments). Anyone else have that problem? Also, I agree with other posters that the correction function should be brought back.

regards,
John

I would just like to remind everyone that the first use of the word “Christians” was actually in the book of Acts in the Bible. It was used to describe the disciples at that point.

So is it fair to call any group “Christian” which significantly varies in understanding on fundamental doctrines from the standard of the Bible that those folks were going by, whether those folks are Mormons or some other group?

Jared,
It nice to see you can address the issues fairly. I would never present to you a distorted fact because that would be intellectually wrong to do so. But what I did present to you were verified quotes from verified sources. And those sources were written by Mormons themselves. Not Christian evangelical sources.

To quote again your own prophets from your own sources….

“God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, NOR JESUS EVER DID IT. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).

What is this Jared? A direct quote from Joseph Smith himself, in a book published by the LDS. Can you rebut that he said this? That this is an distortion?

“If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves.”
( History of the Church, 6:303. )

Jared we discussed this so many times…LDS teaches that God was a man living on the distant planet Kolob. Ascended to godhood. So the definition of the character of God being different than LDS makes LDS right even though the Bible came first. Is that also us Jared, are we supposed to be trying to attain godhood? Can we ascend where God is and become Him?

Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none.
Joseph Smith, Jr.

He said nothing about the Bible in this quote. The Bible is not the basis of his religion so why even bother to read it?

Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. (The Young Woman’s Journal, vol. 3, p. 263-264.

Noah came before the flood. I have come before the fire.
Joseph Smith, Jr.

In your hands or that of any other person, so much power would, no doubt, be dangerous. I am the only man in the world whom it would be safe to trust with it. Remember, I am a prophet!
Joseph Smith, Jr.

Never be discouraged. If I were sunk in the lowest pits of Nova Scotia, with the Rocky Mountains piled on me, I would hang on, exercise faith, and keep up good courage, and I would come out on top.
Joseph Smith, Jr.

Perhaps he just got a little confused…he could have been tired that day.

Mormonism is the pure doctrine of Jesus Christ; of which I myself am not ashamed.
Joseph Smith, Jr.

Joseph Smith claims to be greater than Jesus…that is obvious by his quote up at the top. Joseph Smith makes the claim he is the only prophet to come in the last days and I reject his claim. He carried not with him the nature of Jesus Christ.

Smith Wigglesworth and Katherine Kuhlman, read about them. They did fine without the BoM. Now if the BoM is right in it’s claim, then all of us here are apostasized according to Joseph Smith. The Bible we use in ineffective according to him. So Jared, how can people learn under a man who is so double minded that he changes his revelations at any time he comes under scrutiny.

It would be blasphemy to exalt myself above Jesus, but your Joseph Smith did, and was proud to do so. And people followed him.

“When I have proved that I am right, and get all the world subdued under me, I think I shall deserve something.”
Joseph Smith

Do you realize that in every word and deed he is exalting himself above Jesus.

Jared, I would think that an intelligent person as yourself would not be taken in by this. He had a messiah complex, and founded a religion on it. These are your sources. There are no distortions from me.

I like this quote from Brigham Young:

” here is the doctrine, here is the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the revelations that have come through Joseph Smith the Prophet. I have never seen him, and do not know his private character. The doctrine he teaches is all I know about the matter, bring anything against that if you can. As to anything else I do not care. If he acts like a devil, he has brought forth a doctrine that will save us, if we will abide it. He may get drunk every day of his life, sleep with his neighbor’s wife every night, run horses and gamble, I do not care anything about that, for I never embrace any man in my faith. But the doctrine he has produced will save you and me, and the whole world; and if you can find fault with that, find it.” –

I think the doctrine brought forth by Joseph Smith clarifies and makes sense of the Bible more than that brought forth by Catholic and protestant theologians centuries ago.

Ultimately, the evidence for me that God is ok with Mormons is that the Spirit is alive and working miracles within Mormonism. This does not prove that Mormonism is theologically correct, but it does prove, to me, that God probably does not care if they are incorrect.

Jared: “Ultimately, the evidence for me that God is ok with Mormons is that the Spirit is alive and working miracles within Mormonism.”

#1: Misreading the evidence.

#2: I’d say the evidence that you cite actually points to the work of the Adversary within Mormonism, i.e., that the Unholy Spirit is alive and working acts of deception within Mormonism.

Lastly, I’d say that the quote by Brigham Young regarding Joseph Smith actually has the opposite effect than what he intended. I think the bad seed of Joseph Smith produced corrupted fruit that continues to corrupt to this day, all under the auspices of the Enemy.

P.S. Here are three positive things I believe about Mormonism:

1. They are against gay marriage.

2. They are against abortion.

3. Led by Mitt Romney they did a wonderful job hosting the Winter Olympics at Salt Lake City in 2002.

Jared,

I’m not at all convinced that the presence of miracles proves anything. Here is some food for thought. The two verses below are from the Bible and the last two quotes are from Mormon sites:

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And here are the thoughts of some Mormon writers:

Satan Imitates the Gifts of the Spirit
“Satan can imitate the gifts of tongues, prophecy, visions, healings, and other miracles. Moses had to compete with Satan’s imitations in Pharaoh’s court (see Exodus 7:8–22). Satan wants us to believe in his false prophets, false healers, and false miracle workers. They may appear to be so real to us that the only way to know is to ask God for the gift of discernment. The devil himself can appear as an angel of light (see 2 Nephi 9:9).

Satan wants to blind us to the truth and keep us from seeking the true gifts of the Spirit. Mediums, astrologers, fortune tellers, and sorcerers are inspired by Satan even if they claim to follow God. Their works are abominable to the Lord (see Isaiah 47:12–14; Deuteronomy 18:9–10). We should avoid all associations with the powers of Satan.”
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c7e97befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____

And from “Miracles–The Encyclopedia of Mormonism”
“Although God brings about marvelous events to bless humankind, it is known that not every spiritual manifestation necessarily comes from God” (TPJS, pp. 202-214; Rev. 13:13-14; see also Sign Seeking).
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Miracles

(I forgot you can’t comment with more than one link without it going to moderation. I just tried to submit what is in this comment and the one below it as one post and it didn’t go through. So, if it ends up being here twice, it is because of my forgetfullness.)

Jared,

I’m not at all convinced that the presence of miracles proves anything. Here is some food for thought. The two verses below are from the Bible and the last two quotes are from Mormon sites:

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And here are the thoughts of some Mormon writers:

Satan Imitates the Gifts of the Spirit
“Satan can imitate the gifts of tongues, prophecy, visions, healings, and other miracles. Moses had to compete with Satan’s imitations in Pharaoh’s court (see Exodus 7:8–22). Satan wants us to believe in his false prophets, false healers, and false miracle workers. They may appear to be so real to us that the only way to know is to ask God for the gift of discernment. The devil himself can appear as an angel of light (see 2 Nephi 9:9).

Satan wants to blind us to the truth and keep us from seeking the true gifts of the Spirit. Mediums, astrologers, fortune tellers, and sorcerers are inspired by Satan even if they claim to follow God. Their works are abominable to the Lord (see Isaiah 47:12–14; Deuteronomy 18:9–10). We should avoid all associations with the powers of Satan.”
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c7e97befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____

(Here is the end of my comment with the second link.)

And from “Miracles–The Encyclopedia of Mormonism”
“Although God brings about marvelous events to bless humankind, it is known that not every spiritual manifestation necessarily comes from God” (TPJS, pp. 202-214; Rev. 13:13-14; see also Sign Seeking).
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Miracles

I’m sorry about my forgetfullness here and any confusion it has caused.

Interesting video clip about what goes on inside a Mormon Temple.

Maybe someone can tell us if it’s accurate ot not.

http://thesidos.blogspot.com/2009/03/what-pretty-building.html

Cheryl, Divides,

Its pretty obvious that you think Mormonism is false. I disagree with you, I don’t think you are getting very far with the pages of quotes. I have read most of this stuff before, much worse as well. I am sure I could make a better case against Mormonism than you are making now.

But. speaking of the “true representation of Christianity”

Tell me, how should I go about finding the truth, from your perspective?

How should I go about finding out that people like you are the true christians and the devoted Mormons that I have grown up with are hell-bound idolators?

Give up trying to become a god, and just be yourself…sins and all, trust that Jesus, the only God, has died for all your sins and has forgiven you completely, and that there is nothing at all that can be added to that to raise your stature in the eyes of God.

When you believe that…you’ve got it.

If I do that, will I recognize that you are the true Christians?

Who says that I am trying to be a god?

You might be one at this very moment.

There are Christians in the Mormon church, no doubt (God can grab a hold of whom He will)

There are plenty of non-Christians in my church.

Where the Word is present in it’s purity and where the sacraments are administered in accordance with that pure Word…and people believe it…there is the church.

In many places there are barnicles covering the pure Word, so much so that that Word becomes another Word…the word of “our efforts’, ‘our sincerity’. It then is no longer about what Christ did, but rather about what ‘we do’. It becomes Phariseeism.

When any church (my own included) gets to that point, for whatever reason, I say head for the door. You’re not going to find any gospel there.

Good morning Jared,

There is a verse in the Bible, Jude 3 that says, (in part), :”I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.”

This faith was once for all, (or once as some have translated it), delivered to the saints, and they are to contend for it–for that faith–because people were coming in and corrupting it. A faith once for all given doesn’t sound to me like there is more to be given close to 2000 years later. It sounds pretty cut and dried to me that what was given then was it.

By the way, I find it quite interesting that one of the ways this faith was being corrupted was by poeple that were, “denying the ONLY Lord God”. (verse 4) Sounds to me strangely like what Mormonism is doing with their claims to multiple gods!

Now I will agree with you that in the end no amount of discussion is likely to convince any one of the truth. The only One that is ultimately going to convince someone is the Holy Spirit. The only trouble is, the Holy Spirit is supposedly convicting people of the truth of two very conflicting belief systems here. Since truth is truth–God can’t lie–obviously somebody has it very wrong here!
Are you sure you are willing to stake your eternal well being on the conviction that the Mormon Church is right? I’m certainly not. I’m going to stick to “the faith that was once delivered to the saints.

(

Jared,
I am simply going to pray for you.

“Since truth is truth–God can’t lie–obviously somebody has it very wrong here!”

My guess is that we are all very wrong in some way. But the Jesus I believe in is a pretty understanding and merciful person, I suppose he is going to overlook a lot of our doctrinal mistakes, even the really, really big ones.

If he is willing to forgive me of murder or rape, I think he will forgive me (or you) of sincere heresy?

Kara,

I appreciate that, I am sure I can use more help from God as I struggle through this life.

based on your conversation, I can tell you are very sincere and I am sure that God listens to you.

Cheryl,
You said: ” A faith once for all given doesn’t sound to me like there is more to be given close to 2000 years later”

However, there were things that they didn’t know back then for example:

1 John 3:2 ~ Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Mormons believe that God revealed more details about what it is to be children of God and what we shall be through Joseph Smith.

We believe in that same faith delivered once and for all, the core doctrine is very simple and the same as that found in the Bible.

Jared,
While I appreciate your confidence in me as a Christian, please just listen to what we say. I know it may seem hard to believe, but I care about you because I know the joy you can have knowing my Jesus.

There is no replacement for this. There is no imitation. When I say my Jesus it is because I have a personal relationship with Him because He promised to dwell within me. That is what we talk about when we say intimate relationship.

Even though He may be sitting at the right hand of God at this moment, He is also in me. This is the life changing thing we talk about. We can sit all day and say who is in error and who is wrong and who is the ones who are going to heaven. But we have a problem. You were told to listen only to the voices of Mormon prophets while I have been told by Jesus to listen to Him only.

I just want to know one thing, why is Joseph Smith so venerated?
The quotes I have heard from him and about him just exalt him so high it looks as though people consider him the new messiah. But we have to be realistic, what is he? You can say prophet, now the proving would have to be if he were true or false.

A prophet from God is supposed to live a certain way. A prophet from God is supposed to say certain things. And above all, a prophet is never supposed to begin a new religion. Could we compare him to prophets of the Bible?

Hosea is one of the greatest prophets of the Bible. What is so great about him? He is the example of the perfect Bridegroom. Hosea was commanded by God to marry the prostitute Gomer. This was symbolic of God being married to his people even though they walk in adultery. Gomer was out doing prostitution and was taken as a slave. Hosea’s child saw her and told him, he went to where she was to buy her back. And he did, because of the will to love her was so great.

He had no other wives. Just the one. But he loved her greatly and this is where Christians understand Christ as the Bridegroom. He bought us back from the slave master. While we were sinners he did this. Because He loved us. That is the atoning…it was the redeeming. Jesus loved you so much that if you would only just accept His redeeming work finished at the cross.

Why the Cross? Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. That is what the Bible says. Now consider this…

And please for anyone who might be a little on the sensitive side, please forgive me as I try to explain this as delicately as possible.
The purpose for the Bridegroom to shed blood, because in a marriage in the old days, there had to be blood evidence that a marriage had been consummated. That made it legal in the eyes of God. Hence, the groom would wave the sheets out of the window to prove the bride was a virgin. That was her only claim, and if she were not, he had the choice to divorce her immediately.

But humankind is nowhere near virginal, so to make the Church clean (pure), He had to do it Himself. The blood of Christ cleanses from all sin. The blood of bulls and goats only covered sin, Jesus blood cleanses. So in essence the Holy of Holies being torn is representative of (well no need to say, but it is symbolic). And this death was, as real and terrible as it was, brought Christ and the Church marriage.

Marriage is a blood covenant, the first one in the Bible. It was recognized as a God made institution. And all covenants were sealed in blood. Does this mean we need a temple to solemnize this blood covenant? No, because that merely satisfies the legal aspect with an outward vow being made by each other.

Am I saying that the husband redeems his wife? No, I am saying at the moment of consummation, he made a blood covenant with her to give his life for her, as Christ did the for the Church.

The shed blood of Jesus was displayed openly as proof that He redeemed her with his own blood and made her clean. The Bride is the Church.

For this cause shall a man leave his mother and father and shall cleave unto his wife and they twain shall become one flesh. This is echoed by Jesus. He left His Father to cleave unto the Church. Because the death sentence that hung over us, He satisfied it.

Then He went on to say “Fear not, and let not your hearts be troubled. you believe in God believe also in me. For in my Father’s house are many mansions, if it were not so I would have told you. Behold, I go away and if I go away I will return and receive you unto Myself that where I am you may be also.”

He’s taking us to present His bride to His father and the Bride will dwell forever with Him. The redeemed, bought Bride.

Did the prophet Joseph Smith redeem his wives at his death? How could he, he was just a man.

Jesus and his disciples taught about our need for salvation as arising from the entry of sin into the world. Christ Jesus is also recorded as laying down two aspects of our response: (1) a mental assent to and commitment to certain propositions about him, and (2) repentence from our old allegiance to this world/sin and concomitant new allegiance to Christ.

The Mormon understanding of these concepts seems to be significantly different from what is in the Bible. For example, in Alma 12 it is written that

“24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.
25 Now, if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead; but there was a plan of redemption laid, which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, of which has been spoken.
26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.
27 But behold, it was not so; but it was appointed unto men that they must die; and after death, they must come to judgment, even that same judgment of which we have spoken, which is the end.
28 And after God had appointed that these things should come unto man, behold, then he saw that it was expedient that man should know concerning the things whereof he had appointed unto them;”

The above passage indicates that God intended for sin to occur in order that his plan of redemption would occur and so that we could be put through a probationary period. That is substantially different from the teachings of Jesus, who came to save the sinners, save the lost. In the Bible God did not intend for us to sin; it was not his will that we sin. Furthermore, life here is not probation for, and preparation for the life to come. Jesus taught that the world is fallen because of sin and that his return is delayed in order that there is more time for more people to become children of God; he did not teach that we are in probation.

Again, contrast Nephi 10:21 “Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.” The Mormon concept is one of probation and measuring of our cleanness of our life during our probationary period. However, Christ taught that he was the all sufficient answer for our sins and that when Christians appear before the judgment seat, our sins will not matter in the least in relation to our salvation. It won’t matter if we have done wickedly in the days of our probation, it will only matter if Christ claims us as his sheep. God will, as is written, give out rewards that relate to what we have done, but those rewards are given out to those who are saved on the basis of what Jesus has done; the rewards do not pay for or offset any of our sins.

Personally, I’m glad that I’m not on probation while on earth. Of course, the apostle Paul recognized that this could lead to lawlessness and great sin “. . . should we sin that grace may abound? No . . .” However, if we have given our allegiance to Jesus and are thus filled with His Spirit, we will abound instead in the fruits of the Spirit. It is far better, IMHO, to be saved solely on the basis of what Jesus has done, rather than on what I did during probation.

As a reference for my previous post re the unity of God in Mormon conception, D & C 130: “22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.”

I think the above is important, because part of what Jesus requres belief in is a specific relationship between Him and the Father–a relationship that (at least in my reading so far) Mormons deny.

regards,
John

Jared,

You asked, “Who says that I am trying to be a god?”

From the reading I have done, that is the ultimate hope of Mormons. Is that not correct?

If you are not hoping for that, can you tell us what you are hoping for?

Jared C. asks: “Tell me, how should I go about finding the truth, from your perspective?

How should I go about finding out that people like you are the true christians and the devoted Mormons that I have grown up with are hell-bound idolators?”

How about reading material by former Mormons who are deeply knowledgeable about Mormonism?

Here’s an online resource here.

“How about reading material by former Mormons who are deeply knowledgeable about Mormonism?”

I have read all of that stuff before, I am deeply knowledgeable about Mormonism, that is why I am a Mormon.

Is that how I am going to find out if you guys are really Christian, by reading how a bunch of former Mormons tear down the LDS Church?

Seems the absolute wrong approach, even if I discover that Mormonism is bad, I can’t see how that gives your brand of Christianity look any better.

John said:

“I think the above is important, because part of what Jesus requres belief in is a specific relationship between Him and the Father–a relationship that (at least in my reading so far) Mormons deny.”

Where does Jesus require this? I can’t find this in any of his teachings in the Gospels.

“It won’t matter if we have done wickedly in the days of our probation, it will only matter if Christ claims us as his sheep”

I never saw Jesus say this either. . . he seems to say the opposite at times.

I guess my point is that your interpretation is far from being the obvious interpretation of scripture.

What else can I go on aside from your interpretation of Scripture that you are the true Christians (aside from the Catholics or Orthodox)

“I have read all of that stuff before,”

You have honestly read *ALL* of the Tanner’s material before?

What did you think of their testimony?

Excerpts: Statement by Jerald Tanner. I was born and raised in the Mormon Church, and before I was eight years old I felt that it was the only true church. I remember being told that a certain man who was excommunicated from the church was possessed with the devil. I can recall walking past this man’s house and being afraid of him because I firmly believed that he was possessed of the devil. I believed that a person would almost have to be possessed of the devil to leave “the true church.” My conviction was so strong that I was shocked to hear a boy in Sunday school say that he didn’t know for certain that the church was true. I felt that it was strange indeed for a person to be a member of the Mormon church and yet not know it was the only true church. I believed very strongly that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that I belonged to the only true church. When I was about eighteen years old I had to face reality. I can remember that the first time I saw David Whitmer’s pamphlet, An Address to All Believers in Christ, I threw it down in disgust. After throwing it down, however, I began to think that perhaps that was not the right way to face the problem. If David Whitmer was wrong in his criticism of Joseph Smith, surely I could prove him wrong. So I picked up the pamphlet and read it through. I found that I could not prove David Whitmer wrong, and that the revelations Joseph Smith gave had been changed. I later went to Independence, Missouri, and saw a copy of the original Book of Commandments, which confirmed David Whitmer’s statement that the revelations had been changed. Since that time I have found more and more proof that the church in which I was raised is in error. The most important thing that I found, however, was not that the church was in error, but that I myself was in error. I found that I was a sinner in need of a Saviour. The Mormon church had taught me good morals, but they had not taught me much concerning the power of Christ that could change my life. There was much talk about Joseph Smith, but very little talk about Christ. Consequently, I began to think I had the power within myself to overcome sin. I didn’t see how much I needed the help of God to overcome it. So I turned from one sin to another until I was deeply in bondage to sin. I found no help in the Mormon church; they were too busy preaching about the glory of the church, Joseph Smith, etc. They were too busy singing “praise to the man who communed with Jehovah” and “We thank thee O God for a prophet” to tell me about the Saviour I needed so badly. They were too busy talking about missions, tithing, the welfare plan, etc., to talk about the Christ.

Statement by Sandra Tanner. Since I was born and raised in the Mormon church, and am a great-great-grandchild of Brigham Young, I had very strong ties to the Mormon faith. I was about seventeen before I ever attended another church. As a teenager my life centered around the Mormon church. Because I was active and paying my tithing I thought I was in pretty good standing with God. I knew I sinned but I felt my activity in church would somehow outweigh what I did wrong. I believed (as the Mormons teach) that I was inherently good. I had no fear of God’s judgment. Besides the things that were wrong in my own life, I began to have doubts about my church. Could it really be the only true church? Was polygamy really right? Why couldn’t the Negro hold the priesthood? Was temple marriage really so important? Why were its rites kept such a secret? Did God actually command Mormons to wear special under-garments? I had many questions going through my mind.

When I started college I enrolled in the Mormon Institute of Religion class. I started asking questions in class, trying to find answers to my doubts. But one day my institute teacher took me aside and told me to please stop asking questions in class. There was a girl attending the class who was thinking of joining the church and I was disturbing her with my questions. What a surprise! I had hoped to find answers to the many things that were bothering me and now I had been silenced.

Shortly after this I met Jerald and we began studying the Bible and Mormonism together. As we studied I began to see the contradictions between the Bible and the teaching of the Mormon church. I had grown up thinking that Brigham Young was one of the greatest men that ever lived. He was always presented to me as such a holy man—God’s prophet, seer, and revelator. Then Jerald had me read some of Brigham Young’s sermons in the Journal of Discourses on blood atonement. I was shocked! I knew what Brigham Young was saying was wrong but I couldn’t reconcile these sermons with the things I had always been taught concerning him. I knew these were not the words of a prophet of God.

Jerald also showed me the changes that had been made in Joseph Smith’s revelations. The thought kept coming to me that if God had actually given those revelations to Joseph Smith why would they need rewriting? Surely the Creator of the universe could say it right the first time!

“Is that how I am going to find out if you guys are really Christian, by reading how a bunch of former Mormons tear down the LDS Church? “

If you understand what they’re saying, it’ll help *YOU* understand whether *YOU* are really Christian.

“Seems the absolute wrong approach, even if I discover that Mormonism is bad, I can’t see how that gives your brand of Christianity look any better.”

Since you claim that Christians who’ve never been Mormon distort the teachings of Mormonism, then former Mormons should have greater credibility with you.

And if you discover that Mormonism is bad and wrong, then that should at least motivate you to move away from it towards something that is good and right and truthful. A good first step. Moving away from error.

Truth Unites,

You know, that assertion that the revelations that Joseph Smith received kept changing is something that keeps coming to my mind too. Something given by God should be right the first time I should think. If it wasn’t, how in the world would one ever know that the prophet got it right the second time? If those assertions are indeed true, it seems to me like extremely shaky ground to build a whole religion and your eternal destiny on without even having to consider any of the other issues we have spoken of here.

Jared,
If I can prove to you the interwoven pagan theologies that make up Mormonism, would you at least look into it? Because there is so much the Mormon elders do not wish you to know and I can see why.

One question I have is this though, did Joseph Smith ever repent of witchcraft? This is fundamental to know. Please don’t say you think he did, but show us a speech directly by him that denounces it. He certainly covers it up by saying “when he was young” and “but didn’t make any money at it.” I know the Mormons now are told to stay away from it, but that came from later apostles. But I can prove that Mormonism is an amalgamation of witchcraft philosophies.

Just hang around, later today you will have it because there is so much information it will be hard to compile it at this one time.

Here is an extremely interesting article regarding those changes in Joseph Smith’s revealtions: http://www.irr.org/mit/js-revelations-br.html

Divides,

Divides,

I have read this book by the Tanners.

I recognize that there are discrepancies in the historical record, Joseph Smith was a flawed individual, and that the text of revelations has changed over time in some cases.

If your path to God is THE path, how can I know that? After I have read all of the former Mormon stuff (and I have read every major argument against Mormonism) What do I do next?

What I am interested in is the path to understanding why you think you have got it right, vs. all of the other interpretations of scripture out there?

Mormonism may be “wrong” but why are you right, and how can I tell?

Jared: “It won’t matter if we have done wickedly in the days of our probation, it will only matter if Christ claims us as his sheep” I never saw Jesus say this either. . . he seems to say the opposite at times.”

I was alluding to the Biblical metaphor of Jesus as the good shepherd and his followers as His sheep. For example, Matthew 2:6 “‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.”

Matthew 9:36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.

Matthew 18:12-13 “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.”

Matthew 25:32 “All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

So the question, for Jesus, and for those who wish to be His sheep, is “who does Jesus call ‘His sheep’?”

regards,
John

“But I can prove that Mormonism is an amalgamation of witchcraft philosophies. ”

That’s not possible, its not. Whether or not Joseph Smith believed in magic, Mormonism itself is as magical as any other bible-based faith.

John,

I think that is the right question. . . everybody claims to be the true fold, Catholics, Mormons, Evangelicals, Etc. What is Jesus’ answer?

Jared,
Did you dig deep enough? Did you know before he had the “vision”
that Joseph Smith read the accounts of Captain Kidd in the Pacific and this is verified by eyewitnesses, including his own cousins.

Moroni is the capital city of Comoro in the Grand Comoros Islands of Madagascar. A place where Arab pirates siezed on gold shipments. Moroni is an Arabic word which means “place of fire”. Joseph Smith not only was into treasure digging but hired crews and Brigham Young even made the statement that gold and silver grow like hair.

Now get this…the island was ruled by….12 sultans…could this be the Quorum of 12? We seem to be getting closer. Now it is accepted that reformed Egyptian is actually Arabic, that is accepted now. So imagine this…a treasure hunting captain of a ship buries his treasure after debarking on an island named…Comorah…

Some years later a young boy reads these tales of Captain Kidd, and in a treasure hunting zeal…co-incidentally makes mention of a being named after a city already known to the French in 1572.

Interesting. And you might say, what does this have to do with Joseph Smith? A Judeo-Christian speaking God names an angel an Arab name?

This is one example.

I forgot to mention in the previous post that at his trial…Joseph Smith is quoted “God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, NOR JESUS EVER DID IT. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409)

Comora Islands are known for volcanoes.

Hi again Jared,

You asked some questions of someone in a comment above:

“If your path to God is THE path, how can I know that? After I have read all of the former Mormon stuff (and I have read every major argument against Mormonism) What do I do next?

What I am interested in is the path to understanding why you think you have got it right, vs. all of the other interpretations of scripture out there?

Mormonism may be “wrong” but why are you right, and how can I tell?”

I think the first advice I would give anyone in your place that was asking those questions would be this:

If you are truly looking for answers, I would recommend going back and reading the Bible again in a version that hasn’t been translated by Mormons. (My favorite is the New American Standard Bible version.) Read it as if you are reading it for the very fist time, trying to lay aside all the added revelations and teachings that have come through Joseph Smith and those since him. Read it with an open mind as if it may indeed be the final authority God has given us with no new revelations needed to further understand who God is, etc. There is a verse in the Bible that speaks of it being “living and active.” It is God’s Word and He can speak powerfully to us through it. You may be surpirsed at what you discover by doing this one thing alone.

I was also thinking of John 10: 1 – 30

10:1 “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. 10:2 The one who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 10:3 The doorkeeper opens the door for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 10:4 When he has brought all his own sheep out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they recognize his voice. 10:5 They will never follow a stranger, but will run away from him, because they do not recognize the stranger’s voice.” 10:6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

10:7 So Jesus said to them again, “I tell you the solemn truth, I am the door for the sheep. 10:8 All who came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters through me, he will be saved, and will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come so that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.

10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 10:12 The hired hand, who is not a shepherd and does not own sheep, sees the wolf coming and abandons the sheep and runs away. So the wolf attacks the sheep and scatters them. 10:13 Because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep, he runs away.

10:14 “I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me – 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father – and I lay down my life for the sheep. 10:16 I have other sheep that do not come from this sheepfold. I must bring them too, and they will listen to my voice, so that there will be one flock and one shepherd. 10:17 This is why the Father loves me – because I lay down my life, so that I may take it back again. 10:18 No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down of my own free will. I have the authority to lay it down, and I have the authority to take it back again. This commandment I received from my Father.”

10:19 Another sharp division took place among the Jewish people because of these words. 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He is possessed by a demon and has lost his mind! Why do you listen to him?” 10:21 Others said, “These are not the words of someone possessed by a demon. A demon cannot cause the blind to see, can it?”

10:22 Then came the feast of the Dedication in Jerusalem. 10:23 It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple area in Solomon’s Portico. 10:24 The Jewish leaders surrounded him and asked, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 10:25 Jesus replied, “I told you and you do not believe. The deeds I do in my Father’s name testify about me. 10:26 But you refuse to believe because you are not my sheep. 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. 10:30 The Father and I are one.”

regards,
John