Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod
“The Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod, together with the vast majority of Christian denominations in the United States, does not regard the Mormon church as a Christian church. That is because the official writings of Mormonism deny fundamental teachings of orthodox Christianity. For example, the Nicene Creed confesses the clear biblical truth that Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Trinity, is “of one substance with the Father.” This central article of the Christian faith is expressly rejected by Mormon teaching — thus undermining the very heart of the scriptural Gospel itself. In a chapter titled “Jesus Christ, the Son of God: Are Mormons Christian?” the president of Brigham Young University (Rex Lee, What Do Mormons Believe? [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1992] summarizes Mormon teaching by stating that the three persons of the Trinity are “not… one being” (21), but are “separate individuals.” In addition, the Father is regarded as having a body “of flesh and bone” (22). Such teaching is contrary to the Holy Scriptures, destructive to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and indicative of the fact that Mormon teaching is not Christian.”
Presbyterian (USA)
Presbyterians in many parts of the United States live in close proximity with Mormon neighbors. Historically, these contacts with one another have often involved mutual difficulties. Today Presbyterians are challenged to apply the learnings we are gaining about interfaith relations to our relationships with Latter-day Saints.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, like the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), declares allegiance to Jesus. Latter-day Saints and Presbyterians share use of the Bible as scripture, and members of both churches use common theological terms. Nevertheless, Mormonism is a new and emerging religious tradition distinct from the historic apostolic tradition of the Christian Church, of which Presbyterians are a part.
Latter-day Saints understand themselves to be separate from the continuous witness to Jesus Christ, from the apostles to the present, affirmed by churches of the “catholic” tradition.
Latter-day Saints and the historic churches view the canon of scriptures and interpret shared scriptures in radically different ways. They use the same words with dissimilar meanings. When the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints speaks of the Trinity, Christ’s death and resurrection, and salvation, the theology and practices related to these set it apart from the Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant churches.
It is the practice of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) to receive on profession of faith those coming directly from a Mormon background and to administer baptism. Presbyterians do not invite officials of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to administer the Lord’s Supper.
Roman Catholicism
Question: Wheter the baptism conferred by the community «The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints», called «Mormons» in the vernacular, is valid.
Response: Negative.
The Supreme Pontiff John Paul II, in the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved the present Response, decided in the Sessione Ordinaria of this Congregation, and ordered it published.
Mormons
Yes.
Michael Patton
Since Mormonism has redefined Christianity in such a way that the answer to the question “Who do men say that I am?” is not in accordance with the biblical and historical understanding (e.g. Jesus Christ is the eternal God-man) and since they reject the doctrine of the Trinity as one God who eternally exists in three persons, Mormons cannot be considered Christian without doing violence to the very essence of what it means to be Christian. The Mormon Church follows a different Christ, redefining the designation “Christian” such that the commonality which does exist between Mormonism and Historic Christianity is minimal in comparison to our differences.
Is the Mormon faith a true representation of Christianity? No.
Can individual Mormons be Christian? Only if their belief about who Christ is deviates from official Mormon teachings. In this case, they may be members of the Mormon Church yet hold a traditional view of Christ. Considering the paramount importance of the doctrine of the person of Christ in God’s self-revelation and considering all of the other false teachings of the Mormon Church it is incumbent upon the Mormon to leave the Church in search of a representation of a biblical and historic Church. It is also incumbent upon orthodox Christians to stress the seriousness of this issue, yet with gentleness and respect.
See our new course on Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, taught by Robert Bowman Jr. here. (New episodes weekly).
393 replies to "Is the Mormon Faith a True Representation of Christianity?"
Brian, it seems to me that you’re prone to making sweeping generalizations as though they were fact. I suggested you provide some valid sources behind your assertions, but it seems you’re not interested. I’ll reiterate that your claims about the Book of Mormon were false—perhaps that’s why you elected not to address my challenge to you to verify them?
“everything” I wrote was in error. That’s simply Current Research on Native American genetics are NOT composed in any manner with that of the tribes of Israel. This is not proving a negative, it’s proving the origins of the Native Americans, who were not from the Middle East, but East Asia.
Actually, Brian, that isn’t current research on genetics. It’s a naïve and overly simplistic conclusion from data that can’t demonstrate what you’re claiming. You claim that Native American genetics are not composed in any manner with that of the tribes of Israel. Can you tell me how many of the “tribes of Israel” have been tested genetically? Where did they get the DNA donors? Since all of the tribes except Judah and a smattering of Benjamin and Levi disappeared 2,600 years ago when they were carried off by the Assyrians into …Asia—how were these “current researchers” able to make any findings at all related to those missing tribes? The Book of Mormon claims that the Nephites and Lamanites were of the tribe of Manasseh. How did they do it? Did the 10 tribes return and I missed it?
The Book of Mormon claims to be a history of two ancient migrations from Asia to the western hemisphere. It does not claim to chronicle all the ancient inhabitants of the western hemisphere or give their genealogies. It does claim to give a history of about 25 Israelites and their descendants who left Jerusalem 2600 years ago.
Some scientists think that if these 25 people actually arrived in America 2600 years ago, native Americans would have DNA that matches populations of present day Jews. They have tested the mtDNA of some native Americans and some Jews and have not found a connection—concluding that they have proved a negative.
I think that is really bad science and even worse logic. That would be like comparing the DNA of residents of Hong Kong with that of people in England –two thousand years from now–to see if two dozen British citizens immigrated to Hong Kong.
In addition, Archaeology has ZERO, not one iota, of evidence for the existence of the peoples, places, monetary systems, etc. purported to exist in North America in the BOM. However, we have monumental evidence of the tribes, tools, and culture of ancient Native Americans. None of them corroborate the BOM. Again, not an argument from silence or a negative.
How exactly is that not and argument from silence?
On the other hand, Archaeology has discovered the ancient civilizations of Sodom and Gomorrah, Nineveh, David’s kingship. Evidence colloborates the monies and tools used and written about in the OT and NT. The Garden of Eden? Manna? Come on! Modern science affirms the validity of much of the OT and NT, and does just the opposite for the BOM. That there are some things still undiscovered by archeology doesn’t negate the existing evidence.
Sorry Brian, but neither Sodom nor Gomorrah haven been definitively identified. As Wikipedia notes: “The historical existence of Sodom and Gomorrah is still in dispute by archaeologists.” But let’s assume for a moment that all of the cities you list above have been discovered. By that you seem to conclude that their existence validates the Bible—and conversely, the absence of specific Book of Mormon sites invalidates the Book of Mormon. Let’s examine that premise.
Does the fact that the Mississippi River can be located on a map validate Huckleberry Finn as an authentic history? Mormons have a book of scripture written in Ohio, Missouri, Illinois and Utah. I don’t suppose you think that validates the book of Doctrine and Covenants. That’s because the existence or the non-existence of identifiable sites is irrelevant to the validity of a text. Otherwise you wouldn’t write “Come on!” when asked about the Garden of Eden.
Your assertion that the LDS church has always held the belief that Christ is one and the same as God the Father, in essence, is just baffling. There are already numerous posts on this thread directly from LDS sources that confirm otherwise. I suppose we could just stay here, I’ll say it is, you’ll say it isn’t, until we’re blue in the face. It’s already a matter of record.
It’s no wonder you find it baffling. I’m astonished you think that’s what I wrote. I have never, ever claimed that Christ is one and the same as God the Father. Of course the posts on this thread confirm otherwise. Just what part of my message gave you that idea?
Alma
Alma,
Just a couple of things in reply.
You asked:
You claim that “Jesus was indeed God, not a created being as were the angels…” Where do you come up with the idea that angels are “created beings?”
Ephesians 3:9 and Revelation 4:11 state that God created ALL things, Colossians 1:16-17 says that Jesus created everything in heaven and earth, visible and invisible. ALL things certainly includes angels, does it not? And Ezekiel 28:14 speaks specifically on an anointed cherub that was created. The lexicon I checked to be sure of the meaning of cherub says that a cherub is an angelic being.
You started another paragraph with this sentence, “I don’t have a problem with God’s children eventually becoming just like Him in every way.” If I am understanding you correctly, are you referring to the Mormon belief that men becomes gods? If that is what you are referring to, did you read what I said in comment # 84 above? There I referred to two verses in Revelation where God refers to the ones that are going to inhabit all of eternity with Him as men, His people, and His servants. If they were indeed gods, there is no reason at all for Him to refer to them as men.
One of the things that cracks me up about those who are endeavoring to become more godly, is the fact that they are failing miserably.
I always want to ask them, “When are you going to start!”
Alma,
There is one more thing that I want to respond to that you said:
“I’m not sure you read what I wrote. I pointed out that Jesus Christ is God and once was a man on earth. Inasmuch as He declared that he only does what he sees his Father do, I pointed out that it isn’t unbiblical to conclude that the Father once was just as His Son. I know you think that the Bible teaches that God has always been God, but those are interpretations of the biblical text rather than explicit in the text.”
I see a major problem in that line of reasoning in that while Jesus was on this earth He was still God–He was both God and man at that time. When you read through the Gospels you will see that He made many claims that could only be made by God and that people recognized those claims. Also, when others referred to Him as God, He in no way denied those claims.
Since it is the case that He was God even when He was on the earth, (He never stopped being God), it doesn’t work as you have said above to say that because Jesus was a man once, that is reason to think the Father was not God at one time but only a man.
Besides, if I am not mistaken, when Jesus said He didn’t do anything except what He saw the Father do, He was speaking specifcally of the works that the Father did, not of a state of being such as manhood.
Also, since the Bible is clear that Jesus was God before He ever came to earth, He wouldn’t have been following the pattern He saw the Father doing if the Father was a man first and then became God. Jesus would of actually been doing the opposite–He was God first and then became a man! (Unless of course you believe that Jesus and the Father can both slip back and forth between being men and being God multiple times.) To me, your argument just doesn’t hold up at all.
Well,
I am glad to hear protestants are absolutely right about who Jesus is, and what he said and did, and what it means. You should stay away from Mormonism like the plague, they might give you the theological cooties, open your mind too much, or make you think a bit.
Considering we have four very different accounts of Jesus life, I suppose I should ask which Jesus you believe in.
The Jesus of Mark who never claimed to be God
or the Jesus of John, who did claim to be God.
I suppose Mark must be in hell now since he just didn’t seem to believe in the right Jesus.
We should commit Mark to the flames because it is completely unbiblical, terribly wrong, and depicts Jesus in a false light.
I am glad you believe in the “true” Jesus who is kind, loving, and forgiving, unless you happened to believe in how he was depicted in the Book of Mark, then his grace is not sufficient. I feel so bad for all those poor pseudo Christians who died before John was available to set the record straight.
DOWN WITH MARK the false Evangelist, the deceiver!!!! He lead so many to hell. . .
Anyone who preaches Christ crucified, who brings us and keeps us at the foot of the cross, and keeps us away fom the folly of the self-ascendency project, is worthy of our hearing.
Mark certainly did that, and still does that, for all with ears to hear it.
That is why Christians cling to the cross. That is why we have crosses on the top of our church buildings.
Jared C: “You should stay away from Mormonism like the plague, they might give you the theological cooties, open your mind too much, or make you think a bit.”
Jared C., I ask you to consider the diametric opposite of what you’re suggesting. I.e., YOU should stay away from biblical, historical Christianity like the plague, they might give you the theological cooties, open up YOUR mind too much, or make YOU think a bit.
Jared C: “I suppose Mark must be in hell now since he just didn’t seem to believe in the right Jesus.
We should commit Mark to the flames because it is completely unbiblical, terribly wrong, and depicts Jesus in a false light.
I am glad you believe in the “true” Jesus who is kind, loving, and forgiving, unless you happened to believe in how he was depicted in the Book of Mark, then his grace is not sufficient. I feel so bad for all those poor pseudo Christians who died before John was available to set the record straight.
DOWN WITH MARK the false Evangelist, the deceiver!!!! He lead so many to hell. . .”
Jared C., are you being sarcastic?
Jared C,
Please go read the book of Mark again. Jesus may never have said in so many words there, “I am God,” I don’t remember. But I have just reread the first 9 chapters, and there are multiple times where the implication is there very strongly. How about the one in chapter where He forgives someones sins and the and the people immediately start thinking He is blaspheming because only God can forgive sin? Notice they didn’t even speak it out loud, they only thought it and He knew what they were thinking. And He certainly didn’t correct them in what they said–that only God can forgive sins.
Peter recognized Him as the Messiah, He is repeatedly called the Son of God and the Holy One of Israel. Even the demons knew who He was!
What about in chapter 9 where He was transfigured before the disciples and God spoke from Heaven and called Him His Son?
I could go on and reread the rest of Mark, but it seems to me I have made my point adequately here.
Sorry about my typos in the comment above. The incident of Jesus forgiving sins is in chapter 2.
cheryl u.,
Some folks have a little trouble doing theology.
They must have everything spelled out for them otherwise they don’t get it.
A good church with a Christ centered theology will point out these things to it’s members.
A self -focused church will read the bible woodenly and look for all the things that THEY MUST BE DOING.
The old Adam/Eve in us all naturally gravitates to the Law side of Law and Gospel.
Cheryl,
Mark is the oldest Gospel, If he wanted people to think Jesus was God the Father, wouldn’t he have said it explicitly (Like John did?)
I suppose Mark just didn’t know the “real” Jesus. He should have read the bible and did more theology. Too bad he was too busy writing the Bible.
Ultimately my point is that multiple views of Jesus are both inevitable and completely biblical. The New Testament is not a single view of Jesus.
You seem to think that you have to have a single view of Jesus in order to be Christian, a certain view formulated over the 100-200 years after Jesus was crucified. Since Mark had a very different view of Jesus than John, I can accept that that historical view may qualify you all as Christians, even though it is quite different than the view we find in Mark.
By analogy, I can consider you Christians even though you believe that Jesus has some unimaginable relationship with his Father that cannot really be explained that makes them a single “essence”. I can’t see that the view is either biblical or even that it makes sense but I can accept that you hold it sincerely and that Jesus is just and loving enough not to send you to hell for believing such strange things.
But Maybe the “Mormon” Jesus is simply more forgiving and loving than the Trinitarian Jesus. I suppose that remains to be seen.
See what I mean, cheryl?
If it’s not said explicitly then many do not get it.
Jared C.,
The Mormon Jesus is a taskmaster and hard.
The Christian Jesus is loving and gives totally out of His gracious will.
I’ll take the Christian Jesus, anyday.
You can stay on your god project.
I’ll be going out and no access to computer till later today or tomorrow (not dodging your reply)
Steve,
I know what you mean!
Jared C,
Jesus said that He and the Father are one and that if we have seen Him, we have seen the Father. Maybe that is the “unimaginable relationship”with the Father that you talk about. And I guess that is what I would probablycall one essence.
Oh my goodness, just look at how we cannot see just what is going on. Jared, your Mormonism is based upon a lie, that added another lie and then another until it got so out of hand that the recent adherents are so unaware of just what their fractured foundation is built on. The reason you are so afraid to speak against it, is not because you fully believe what your leaders believe, but you are simply afraid of the ramifications if you do.
We challenge not you, but your leaders who speak doctrine for you. It is these men we call out to justify what they say. Jared, you are merely a product of this and we don’t blame you. But I will challenge Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and all other leaders who came after them. I will say unequivocally Joseph Smith was a huckster, a liar, a showman, and unsaved. I will say Brigham Young followed in his footsteps and repeated lies and expanded more lies. These men were wrong, and you deserve to know how wrong they were.
What does it take to make a religion legitimate? It needs to be created from legitimacy. Therefore by you saying your faith is “radically different” in thought means exactly that…it is radical, and different. I think it would be a shame to not know just how far off the mark Mormonism is.
Let’s start with this….
Do you believe that the Lord And Savior died willingly on a cross, shed His blood and cried out in the agony of being separated from God?
Do you believe in three days, He rose bodily from the tomb, neatly folded his grave clothes and then walked out of it?
Do you believe that He was visited by Mary Magdalene and told her to go tell the brethren that He was risen, and then presented Himself to the disciples where Thomas said “My Lord and my God”?
Do you believe He walked with the two men on the Road to Emmaus?
Do you believe that He stood on the side of the Galilee and called to the disciples who were fishing to come and dine, and prepared a meal for them and ate fish with them, after he was risen?
Do you believe that before he ascended into heaven bodily, in front of 500 witnesses, that He said to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them whatever He has commanded to do so?
Do you believe that He now sits at the right hand of God?
But the crux of the whole matter is this…did Jesus die on the cross after the cruel whipping, and the crown of thorns placed on his head and stripped naked so soldiers could gamble for his robe all for you to believe that it was insufficient without Joseph Smith?
Your Joseph Smith was blasphemous, and so was every leader who followed.
Let’s set up this scenario…Joseph Smith is dead, therefore has to stand before God to account for his works…
Hebrews 9
7And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Joseph Smith stands before God in the judgment and the book of the Lamb is open…
God says, Joseph, you say I was man like you are, but my Word says I am a Spirit…how can Joseph answer?
God says, Joseph, you say I created Jesus through sexual union with Mary, buy my Word says the Holy Ghost overshadowed her…how can Joseph answer.
God says, Joseph, you say there are many gods, and that you are becoming one, but my Word says “Shema, Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad” Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one”…what can Joseph say?
God says, Joseph, you say the work done at the cross is insuffient without believing in you also, but my Word says there is no other name given in heaven and earth whereby men can be saved except the name of Jesus….where does Joseph stand?
As much as you can say you believe in my God, sadly, no you do not. The Bible says Psalm 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
So as the psalmist said several thousand years before Joseph Smith came to be, the Word was settled in heaven.
Where does Joseph stand?
the Word settled that God was from everlasting
the Word settled that God is a Spirit from everlasting
the Word settled that God sent His son into the world to die
the Word settled that the Son went willingly
the Word settled there is only one name by which man can be saved
the Word settled that it was the only Word.
It is finished. It is settled.
Alma,
Does not the BOM state that white skin is “pure and delightsome” and that brown skin is “filthy and loathsome” or that “Lamanitish” people who accept the Mormon gospel can hope to have their skins turned white”? As such the LDS “forefathers” promoted this exclusion for over 100 years.
Although I guess you’re right, it wasn’t edited out of the BOM as I had asserted. I guess I should have said the LDS doctrine was edited by special revelation to correct these errors.
That said, the revisions of the BOM, in Grammer, spelling, king names, etc, should not be necessary if Every letter were given by God”.
We’re all limited by time and space on this blog, so yes, I made some sweeping statements. None of which have been shown yet to be false. In fact the opposite is true.
Kudos to you and your Mormon apologists though for your attempts to invalidate the DNA study. Perhaps I will take the time later to post to the study. Admittedly, I dont have it in front of me.
While true that the existence of the MS doesn’t validate Huck Finn being true…….Huck Finn IS fiction isn’t it? Does it purport to be fact? Does it ask the reader to give their heart and soul to the river kid? You’ve reversed the logic. Huck Finn is a fictional story within a real world context. The BOM is a “Factual” story with no evidence to support it. The BOM requires facts, Huck Finn does not. Still looking for the Iota of evidence. While the evidence for the veracity of the Bible isn’t exhaustive yet, it’s pretty darn strong and plentiful. (Yes a sweeping statement).
“This is doctrine from the Book of Mormon–published one month before Joseph Smith organized the Church of Jesus Christ. The title page declares that Jesus Christ is the eternal God. Many other passages contain similar language. Towards the end of the book, there is an account of Jesus appearing to the people and declaring that He (Jesus Christ) is the God of Israel. So you see, Brian, this isn’t an evolution of doctrine; it was foundational to the Church.”
THis is your quote, yet we’ve shown you, from your LDS documents the official position of the LDS church that Christ is not God, but a god. A product of the Father, and not pre-existing and eternal.
Again, you’re entire position is that our positions are mislead and uninformed. Yet we’ve heard no evidence to the contrary.
And by the way, the link to the “First Edition” BOM doesn’t help. This online version is un-managed, and can in no way be confirmed to be “THE” first edition. In fact, on the Main page reads “Online edition edited in 1994”. To be fair, it could very well be THE first Edition, word for word, but this is an internet copy, not authoritative. In fact, that Mosiah 21:28 uses Mosiah’s name and NOT Benjamin’s means this online edition is NOT in fact the 1st edition.
“Where does Joseph stand?
the Word settled that God was from everlasting
the Word settled that God is a Spirit from everlasting
the Word settled that God sent His son into the world to die
the Word settled that the Son went willingly
the Word settled there is only one name by which man can be saved
the Word settled that it was the only Word.
It is finished. It is settled.”
Who or what is the “Word?”
Do you believe that the Lord And Savior died willingly on a cross, shed His blood and cried out in the agony of being separated from God?
Mormons say yes, which is part of the reason we don’t think he is of the same “essence” as his father. How can you cry out at being separated when you are not separated? (seems like nonsense to me)
Do you believe in three days, He rose bodily from the tomb, neatly folded his grave clothes and then walked out of it?
Mormons believe Jesus was resurrected from the dead and conquered death and hell.
No idea who folded his grave clothes.
Do you believe that He was visited by Mary Magdalene and told her to go tell the brethren that He was risen, and then presented Himself to the disciples where Thomas said “My Lord and my God”?
Mormons believe the bible….this was in the bible.
Do you believe He walked with the two men on the Road to Emmaus?
See above.
Do you believe that He stood on the side of the Galilee and called to the disciples who were fishing to come and dine, and prepared a meal for them and ate fish with them, after he was risen?
Yes, if the resurrected Jesus is eating fish, he doesn’t seem much like a Spirit. . . .
Do you believe that before he ascended into heaven bodily, in front of 500 witnesses, that He said to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them whatever He has commanded to do so?
Mormons believe the bible.
Do you believe that He now sits at the right hand of God?
Yes, Mormons do, Do evangelicals. It seems that they don’t believe he sits on the right hand of God because they don’t believe God can sit nor do they believe he has hands, despite what Stephen saw. I suppose Stephen was a deceiver like Joseph, undermining people’s belief in the Trinity. Of course he was being stoned at the time, so he did not have a lot of reason to lie.
But the crux of the whole matter is this…did Jesus die on the cross after the cruel whipping, and the crown of thorns placed on his head and stripped naked so soldiers could gamble for his robe all for you to believe that it was insufficient without Joseph Smith?
This is a ridiculous statement and bears no resemblance to Mormonism. I can accept that church leaders said all the things quoted above but this conclusion is totally at odds with all of that. Evangelicals often strike me as having blinders on that prevents them from seeing anything in the Bible that disrupts their devotion to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fida. The blinders also seem to prevent them from not jumping to these sorts of strange conclusions.
I should say “some evangelicals”
Now you are beginning to reach out even though you might be trying to disprove me, you are actually proving…
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani…My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?
Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Do you notice that Day and Night are capitalized, meaning proper names? Pay close attention….
John 1:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
So, we have established by the KJV, which you yourself say you believe says Jesus was God and was with God…hmmm…
Another interesting example we can use is….my husband and I are one flesh…how can this be if we are two different people with two different minds but we are one flesh because the Bible says we are.
What is most interesting is I said verses from the Bible that you rejected and then said you believe in the Bible…so you are really picking and choosing what fits into Mormon?
Psalm 119
105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Again word and light being used in same sentence.
Psalm 119
160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Luke 2
29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Simeon again using the word light when referring to the baby Jesus at his circumcision.
John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Jesus said…the glory he had with the Father before the world was?
They were eternal together.
you said “This is a ridiculous statement and bears no resemblance to Mormonism. I can accept that church leaders said all the things quoted above but this conclusion is totally at odds with all of that.”
Who’s quote is at odds? And you are comfortable accepting your own leaders would speak heresy and never question it? Should I directly quote what Wilford Woodruff said? OK.
President Wilford Woodruff
4th President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
April 1898
69th Annual General Conference
Sunday Overflow Session
In April, 1838, while in the town of Kirtland, in walking across the street I met two men who held the Apostleship. They said to me, “Brother Woodruff, we have something that we want you to join us in.” Said I, “What is it? “We want another Prophet to lead us.” “Whom do you want?” “We want Oliver Cowdery. Joseph Smith has apostatized.” After listening to them, I said to them: “Unless you repent of your sins you will be damned and go to hell, and you will go through the fulness of eternal damnation, and all your hopes in this life will pass before you like the frost before the rising sun. You are false. Joseph Smith has not apostatized. He holds the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, and will hold them until the coming of the Son of Man, whether in this world or in the world to come.” I am happy to say that those men did repent pretty soon, turned to the Church, and died in it.”
Matthew 16
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Who gave Joseph Smith the keys? When were they given to him?
President Howard W. Hunter
14th President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
October 1994
165th Semiannual General Conference
Priesthood General Session
“A man who holds the priesthood has reverence for motherhood. Mothers are given a sacred privilege to “bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of [the] Father continued, that he may be glorified” (D&C 132:63).
But Jesus said the Father was glorified in the Son…?
What I want to know is this…even if Joseph Smith was “terribly wrong” then why do all your leaders even to the one you have now all make reference to him?
You can say all you want about believing in the Bible, but until you actually do, you will learn it is sufficient.
Joseph Smith was not terribly wrong, I never said that. I know I am being a bit subtle but it should be clear that I do think Joseph Smith was a prophet. However, for the sake of argument, EVEN IF if he was, he would still be a christian according to the Bible.
Mormons believe that Joseph was given the keys by Peter James and John in May 1829.
If that indeed did happen then Joseph Smith had the keys Woodruff spoke up in a direct line from Jesus.
Its as easy for me to believe that that happened as it is for me to believe that St. Paul had a vision of Jesus that called him to the Apostleship.
That is really the difference between the Mormons and you Evangelicals, which stories we are willing to believe, based on very little evidence.
Mormon’s ultimately believe that the Spirit of God will sort out the truth of the stories told. If the Spirit does not support what Mormons say and believe, then it isn’t worth believing, If the Spirit of God does support what Mormons say and believe, others should take notice, whether or not it is in conflict with “traditional” notions of Christianity.
You are not going to get closer to the Spirit of God, nor understand if Mormons have a connection to it without understanding what they believe from their perspective.
To me a lot of the Bible based argument you present above makes almost no sense, but it could be right if the Spirit supports it. I am open to learning more about how God deals with Evangelicals, because no doubt He does. I read blogs like this to try so see where you all are coming from. I admit that it is pretty hard for me to understand why you believe some of the things you do based on what I know about the Bible, but hey, there is a lot of room for interpretation.
I have been a bit sarcastic here, and kindof smug, I hope you can forgive me. I get a little worked up when I see some of the attitudes and distortions. I admit that Mormons believe some radically different things than Evangelcals, and from their perspective they may be justified in denouncing us as heretics and sinners, demonic, pagans, etc. But from my perspective, and from my experience as a follower and worshiper of Jesus, I can’t see how such a position really fits in with Chrisitianity. Jesus doesn’t really need you to resist the evil of Mormonism (if it is as evil as you say) He actually invites you not to resist it. The Spirit itself will protect you (or us). I think we should have the faith that moving closer to the Spirit is the only path to really understanding what God is, what his precious promises are and what he has in store.
I think the heart of the Mormonism I believe could be summed up in 2 Peter 1. If you don’t have faith knowledge temperance brotherly kindness you will be blind to such understanding.
Anyway , please forgive my pride, sarcasm and argument. Believe it or not, Jesus may be closer to some Mormons than you might think. Likewise, Jesus may be closer to Evangelicals than I might think.
Jared,
You are most definitely forgiven. At least we can now begin to talk. As you may have found out, I am a hard-liner when it comes to my faith. The Spirit leads into all Truth.
And by definition of who Jesus is, nothing is true if it is contrary to His nature and His character. God does not lie, and Jesus does not lie so the Holy Ghost would never lead into another direction.
When you speak of baptism of the Holy Ghost, it could be a different meaning we believe in the indwelling of the Spirit. We believe in laying on hands…but we do that for prayer for the sick also.
I believe in Jesus, but to the conviction of my heart made through confession. To me, He is personal. He abides in me. We have fellowship because He was invited into me. This is how the Spirit works. I communicate with Him, I meditate on Him and His words. The realness of Him is real, but He would still be real without any help from me.
Have the mind of Christ. Have the spirit of Christ. And above all, take on Christ. We can never become Him, but we can become like Him.
Jesus as the Word of God can never be contrary to God. It is impossible. As God is holy, loving, just, full of mercy, He is just as righteous and jealous.
Jesus is close to us all…He said Behold, I stand at the door and knock, it any man opens up to me, I will come in unto him and sup with him. This is the fellowship we have by the Spirit.
Shall I share with you two examples of my Jesus and how He communicates with me?
One time I woke up in the morning and was hearing a voice saying “Trust Jesus”. This was speaking to me all morning. As I sat to read my Bible, suddenly I heard very clearly my friend call my name. I got on the phone to see what was wrong. She lives in Ft. Smith Arkansas over 800 miles from me. She was so distraught she was calling out to be healed. Well I decided that I must go see her. I heard again, “trust Jesus”. So I told my husband I had to go and I did.
Well around West Memphis I happened to be praying and the presence of the Lord came into my car and told me to feed His sheep. At that moment I noticed a man walking on the side of the interstate. I knew this was unusual and it was hot out…heat index was 114. I drove down to the next exit to turn around and came back, having to make a new turn around before I could get in the right direction. I stopped and picked him up. He was an older African-American man, very tired and thirsty. He drank the warm water in the bottles I had bought previously.
I drove until the next town and stopped to buy food. He did not eat it. We began talking on the way, he told me he was on his way to Oklahoma City, which was farther than what I was going. But our conversation was about the Lord. It became night and I finally got to the Fort Smith exit and told him I would have to let him off there. I noticed the lightning of a rain storm approaching and offered him an umbrella, which he turned down saying he did not need. I offered him cash money which he turned down also saying he did not need. We prayed before he left the car and as he walked down the road in front of my headlights, the back of his shirt said “Trust Jesus”. I cried because I knew the realness of Jesus.
The second thing is when my house was on fire. I had been sleeping. It was 4 am and I heard a crash somewhere in my house that woke me up. I jumped from bed to open my bedroom door thinking someone was in my house. I closed the door to turn on the light and dress and then opened the door again. The light went out as a cloud of smoke hit my face.
Not knowing what to do I went to the bathroom close to me and got a wet towel. Then realizing my house was on fire, I called out loud “Lord you said if I call on you in the day of my trouble, you will answer me” and His voice spoke back and told me to crawl to the back door. I could see a man holding my burning ceiling up and as I made it to the kitchen it fell behind me. I had no shoes on, it was February 16, 1999, there was two feet of snow on the ground. I lived in Celina Ohio at the time.
I made it out, and when I came around the front of the house, I realized the front door was unlocked and my coat and boots were just inside the front door. I was able to retrieve them and then as I was going to find help, two men in a white pickup truck stopped and called 911 for me. In the span of time, it was 10 minutes and my house was burning. But I today still know the man who held my ceiling for me until I escaped.
There is no one who can tell me I don’t know who Jesus is. His realness saved my life and confirmed to me His word.
Jared, that is why I am so firm in what I believe. And I know that there are many other people out there who have also met with Jesus in an intimate personal way.
Kara,
I really appreciate you telling me these experiences. They are very similar to some of the experiences I have had and the reason I am Christian. Based on what you have said, I am confident you know who Jesus is.
I have seen people healed of pain and disease through laying on hands and praying in the name of Jesus. I have seen people turn their lives around in days in the name of Jesus. I have felt overpowering feelings of love and understanding while contemplating the gospel. I have heard dozens of first hand accounts of people trusting in the Spirit of God and listening to the Spirit and being saved from peril and saving others from peril. I have seen thousands of lives blessed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The most powerful witness from another person came from my grandmother, whose husband was just committed to the state asylum due to his violent dementia to Alzheimers. After a life of trials she now faced something that was completely oppressing, she told me how eventually you just know that Jesus is there helping you.
I have been a Mormon all of my life, I spent two years as a missionary, and saw many miraculous things while endeavoring to serve the Lord. Seeing this, it seems very strange to say that Jesus is not active in the lives of the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, whether or not you believe all of the stuff Joseph Smith said.
Now I can see where you are coming from in your theological objections to the teachings of Mormon prophets. I think that many of the theological principles of Mormonism paint a very different picture of heaven. However, I think that it is important to understand that these theological differences mean very little in the lives of those who sincerely call on the name of Jesus and endeavor to be his disciples both Evangelical and Mormon.
Whether Mormon prophet, or Evangelical believer, we can only see heaven through a blurred reflection “through a glass darkly” It seems reasonable that when we have such dim vision, some of us are going to get it (very) wrong. I am going to admit that I don’t have the capacity to understand the real nature of God in my head (but as Paul said to the Corinthians, only through His Spirit).
However, from my study of the Bible, despite the diametrically opposed positions on many theological issues, I can’t see how it even makes sense for Evangelicals and Mormons to denounce eachother as un-christian. It seems we would be putting words in Jesus’ mouth.
Despite our different views of what is unseen, we probably can agree on this. That in the end, prophecies and visions, both real and unreal, will cease, what we think we know will pass away since we only have part of the picture. The Bible is only a part of the picture, without the Spirit that dwells in us as we learn it and live it, it is just sounding brass. With Love, that most precious gift from God, and with trust in the atonement of Jesus and trust in His love, we can endure all things in this live and bless the lives of others. Only through this sort of love, can we have Eternal life.
(I got the qoutes screwed up above, part of the quote is 1 Corinthians 13, and part of it is just me, I am sure you can tell the difference 🙂 )
The concept of Jesus as a hypostatic incarnation of God’s Wisdom is discussed by J P Holding here.
It’s really not that complicated.
Jared,
That was very nice of you. The verse you were referring says “but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away with”, in the KJV.
Jesus has not come back in like manner as He went away, according to Matthew 28. But to think if we have seen Him now by the Spirit, how much more glorious will it be face to face?
We are confident that we may not see His reappearing in our lifetime, He still will come again. But the point is to be prepared always. We don’t have issues with your testimonies, it’s just that as we hold our own preachers, teachers, prophets, evangelists and apostles…which is called in some circles the 5 fold ministry, we hold them to the scrutiny of the Bible. So we would not do any less for anyone else.
Many times people have come to me and said God said this or that. I have to do what the Bible says and try the spirit to see if it is of God. And if it is not, I am in danger if I receive it. But it is my responsibility to do the testing.
Even when it comes to books. And should I do the same thing for the Bible to see if a verse I am reading, that the understanding I am getting is also from God? Yes, because I am human, and subject to making mistakes. So I qualify it, not through extra-Biblical means, but the Bible itself in other passages. If I have trouble with something Paul says, I go to find out what Jesus said about it. And the Bible says “out of the mouth of two or three witnesses” So I apply that to my study. What did Jesus say? Then I go from there. I don’t blindly take a verse and believe only in that one.
The Bible is more than a book of stories. It becomes living when you read it. Because all of the words were given by inspiration of the Holy, Living God.
Perhaps it would be helpful if you knew about my pastor’s wife, she grew up Mormon but now is born-again Pentecostal. She has been for over 25 years now. She has said there are some things the Mormons hold as social value are beneficial. But Jared, I will ask you this, not to be offensive or downgrading…can you be a Christian without the BoM?
I hope you will at least think about it. You seem to be a nice person and that is good. Perhaps I came off as combative, but I think it is part of who I am. I should apologize if anything I said was not said in grace and humility. For that I do say I am sorry.
Kara,
Thanks again for your response. No hard feelings whatsoever. I really appreciate your thoughts and experiences.
“. . .can you be a Christian without the BoM”
Sure, just like you can be a Christian without the Book of John, or the Book of Mark, or even the New Testament. St. Paul didn’t have the New Testament.
I think the Bible goes to great lengths to extinguish the idea of your good works counting for ANYTHING when it comes to your realtionship to God.
The BOM fans the flames of that natural tendency to take on the self-justification project.
I think that the life of faith in the work of Christ alone for our salvation is hard enough without throwing gasoline on the fire of our humanistic ascendency project.
In Christ alone, that is the answer. We know the grace of God is great. People forget that in ourselves, we really can do nothing.
As the Bible says, “what is man, that God is mindful of him?”
He is mindful enough to be close. His arm is not shortened that He cannot save. And He is not slack concerning His promises.
Before I start my quick yet lengthy response, we do well to all read Gal 6:1 before writing any blog entry. At least we can be gentle and loving while trying to converse. Reading this entire thread, it seems at least we all accept the Bible as the word of God, so that one should be easy.
Now for the more difficult part.
I was fortunate enough to work for a company where the IT data center was located in Orem, UT. And hence I have had the extreme pleasure, to this day, to converse, meet and “shoot the breeze” with a lot of members of the Church of LDS. I even have a copy of the Book of Mormon on my bookshelf, and yes.. I read it cover to cover, even though it’s been a while (I had to pull it back out for this entry).
I would like to emphasize that most of the people I worked with are still friends of mine and I have thoroughly enjoyed working with them. They had an attitude, demeanor, approach and work ethic I wish I could find in a lot of other Christians. Besides my penchant for coffee, which meant I had to make my own each time while being in Orem, we got along great.. and still do.
So, I am not ready to make a judgment on whether you are a Christian or not, but then again, neither will I make that judgment on other “Christians” I know. “Judgment is mine” said the Lord and I for one know I am not him ;-). Further more, Matthew 7 is probably one passage I like a lot. Combined with 1John 1, in which I realize I myself am far from perfect, I’ll refrain from judging, but love you all the same.
I would kindly ask Jared C, or Alma (who I deduce are defending the Church of LDS as being Christian), to answer the following questions with simple “yes” or “no”. Over my years of conversing with some the very good Mormon friends mentioned above, they shared they have been taught to answer “I believe in the Bible” when not knowing how to exactly answer a question with “Yes” or “No”. It is an escape clause. So Jared C and Alma, please refrain from using it, I would much appreciate it.
For anyone else on this blog.. go for it.. it’s only 10 questions.
1) If you were to find a contradiction between the Bible and any of the following three books to wit, the book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price. Would you admit the Bible is correct while the others are wrong ?
Please don’t respond that this is a hypothetical question and refuse to answer. If someone showed me a gospel (gospel of Thomas, gospel of Judas, Apocalypse of Peter, you name it) and which are btw. much older than any of the three mentioned above, and this document contradicted the Bible, I would unequivocally take the Bible as truth above any other. So… Yes or No ? Bible over any of the other three ?
2) Is Adam the same person as Michael, also known as the prince, the archangel ?
3) Do you, yes or no, accept the existence of telestial, terrestrial and celestial heavens.
4) Can a woman, yes or no, reach the celestial heaven without her husband
5) Can anyone who is not a member of the LDS reach the celestial heaven
6) Are Jehovah and Elohim one and the same
7) Do you believe in the virgin birth eg. no physical being besides Mary was required for the birth, eg Elohim did not have sex with Mary
8) Is Jesus a created being or has He existed forever since before the start of time ? (I will take “Created” or “Forever” as an answer instead of “Yes” or “No”)
9) Is there only one God for the entire world, galaxy, universe, all the planets, start, comets and everything in it ?
10) Can I ever gain equal footing with God ?
So feel free to post it something like
1) Yes
2) No
3) …etcetcetc….
Depending on these answers… you may or may not have a solid understanding of what we nowadays call Christianity. I will reply once I have received (and digested) some of your answers. I will also give you mine so you at least know where I stand on some of these. Fair is fair…
And please, rest assured, regardless of how you answer, I do still care, love you and would be more than happy to share a drink (Btw.. the favorite drink of one of my friends is Caffeine Free Dr.Pepper.. and he got me hooked on it too by now).
Yours in Him
PS: The number 8 above got interpreted as a smiley face .. lol.. and what I intended as a smiley face higher up by using 😉 did not… so 8) higher up and 8. where there’s a smiley
Steve,
I don’t think you really know what is in the Book of Mormon:
Here is an example: Mosiah 3: Coming from a prophet speaking around 124 B.C.:
Jared C.,
Those were some good sentences that certainly seem to be Christian.
But, when I picked up the Book of Mormon and started reading it, I found several places where there were clear contradictions to Holy Scripture (the Bible).
One place in the BOM was speaking of making yourself better unto perfection. Another place spoke of why babies are not to be baptised. (it does not say that in the Bible)
I found those two in about 5 minutes of reading.
If the Mormon Church would say that Jesus Christ is God, that He and He alone has done everything needful for salvation and justification. That no works from the person are required. If they would admit that no one can get past the 1st Commandment, yet the other 9, I would say that they would be a Christian Chruch.
It is the self-project unto perfection and the lack of complete trust in Jesus for everything, that bothers me the most. And the self-righteousness that I’ve found in so many Mormons who actually believe that they are ‘doing it’. That bthey are living the Godly life.
The more that I am in Christ…the more I realize how far from being able to ‘do it’ I really am. (Not trying to b boastful about my humility 😀 …just trying to illustrate a point)
Granted there are many other churches that do not believe all these things.
A story for another time.
Thanks, Jared.
Someone asked a question way back in comment # 81 that I don’t believe has ever been addressed here. It involved what they understand of the Mormon belief that a husband has to call a wife up or she will not be resurrected. I read several quotes from Mormon leaders of the past that said that she will never be able to get to the Celestial Kingdom if her husband doesn’t do this for her.
I would like to know, as the original commenter did, how this fits in with Jesus being sufficient for all for salvation?
Michael L.
That is a terrific test!
I’m sure the answers to those questions will bring clarity if not agreement.
– Steve M.
Michael L. has lovingly produced a simple, clear test for Mormons to clarify their theology. If you’re Mormon, please take the test (first) and answer the questions as requested.
Michael L.:
You have suggested a that either I or Jared provide answers to your list of 10 questions. I haven’t been here on this site for a few days due to other demands on my time and I don’t have much time to respond today; but I will do my best to provide a brief reply. I am dictating this response so please forgive me if my software mis- hears something I say.
I’m not sure that my answers could indicate to you whether or not I have a solid understanding of what you “nowadays” call Christianity. My answers could only indicate whether or not I have an understanding Mormonism. Whether or not Mormonism fits into a “nowadays” classification of Christianity is also irrelevant. I believe the question is whether or not Mormonism fits within a framework of biblical Christianity.
1. If I were to find a contradiction between the Bible and LDS Scripture, I would conclude first that the problem is interpretational and secondly that the Bible is in error. That is because the Bible has passed through many copyists over hundreds of years. It is impossible to determine with certainty the original text.
2. Yes Adam is the same person as Michael.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Yes. All children who die in infancy go to the celestial kingdom.
6. Yes and no. Biblically, the term “elohim” is a generic term for “God.” Since Jehovah is God, the terms are synonymous. However, in Mormon practice, we have designated the term Jehovah to apply to the Son and Elohim to apply to the Father. These are terms of convenience rather than theology. (See the First Presidency’s Exposition on the Father and the Son.)
7. Yes, no, unknown.
8. Your question is flawed and relies on an illogical shift of meaning. I will write more on this later.
9. No.
10. It depends on how you’re using the term “gain.” If you’re using it to mean “earn” the answer is no. If you’re using it to mean “obtain” the answer is yes.
Alma
I only know a little about Mormonism, but I don’t get why they would want to be known as Christians in the sense of being assoicated with other American churches because 1 Nephi 14:10 states, “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.” I assume, therefore, that I belong to the whore of all the earth.
regards,
John
We don’t want to be known as Christians “in the sense of being associated with other churches.” We want to be known as Christians because we are disciples of Jesus Christ.
Alma
Hi again Alma,
Your anwer to # 7 above doesn’t necessarily seem to be the answer all Mormons give to this question. I have read on another website a discussion on this same question that took place between a Mormon and a non Mormon. The Mormon there very stoutly said that only a Heavenly Father with flesh and blood could have produced life with Mary. He said it was not possible for a spirit to do so. Now in all fairness he did say that these were his views and not necessarily those of the church but that he belived they were were consistent with the views of the church. But then again, I have read quotes from Mormon leaders in the past that I cant read in any other way but that they are saying that God the Father had sex with Mary.
You also stated that a Mormon woman can reach the Celestial heaven without her husband. That has certainly not always been the teaching of the Mormon Church. The Apostle Charles Penrose, the Apostle Erastus Snow, and William Clayton, secretary to Joseph Smith are all quoted as saying otherwise. http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/resurrectwife.htm Are those things no longer believed by the Mormon Church?
I am also really curious to know why Mormons believe that Adam is the same person as Michael the archangel? I see absolutely no indication of that in the Bible whatsoever.
And lastly, you say you would believe Mormon Scripture over the Bible because it is not possible to know the original text. Why then has the book of Mormon been changed many times and you can still accept it? As I understand it Joseph Smith claimed that the BOM had been given him directly from God and was the most correct of any book on earth. Then why all of the changes since then? That doesn’t sound very reliable to me.
Cheryl, Divides, Steve,
You are thinking about Mormonism in a non-Mormon context.
By your narrow, strange, unbiblical definition of who a Christian is, Mormons don’t qualify.
But if you go to Bible, read all the passages where it mentions who the true disciples of Jesus are, some Mormons do qualify (some Evangelicals do to).
I can certainly understand that you think Mormonism is totally out in left field, fine. But when you stray from the biblical definition of who a Christian is, and add a bunch of derived theological tests, you are putting words in Jesus’ mouth that are certainly not in the bible.
I don’t really care at all to be associated with many Evangelical churchs, and I think your “orthodoxy” is unbiblical, but ultimately I can accept you as Christian’s if you meet the definitions given in the Bible.
Is it too much to ask that Evangelicals follow the bible as well on this point?
Jared C,
Would you please do me, and maybe all of us, a favor, and tell us what you see as our narrow, strange, unbiblical definition of who a Christian is?
Jared C,
Sorry to bug you, but would you be so kind to look up a little higher and would you mind answering the questions ?
After that, I will gladly post mine and expound a little bit on what my humble opinion is.
In Him
I have yet to hear a biblical definition from anybody here. In essence, what I hear is, “Mormons don’t interpret the Bible in the same way we do, therefore they can’t be Christian”
It may be true that Mormons believe all kinds of crazy things, but so do a lot of people you consider “Christians” Are Catholics Christian? Are eastern Orthodox Christian, how about Coptics? They all believe things that you would consider “unbiblical” Since I have not seen any bible-based definition of who is a disciple of Christ on this post. It seems that the definition is fluid, i.e. if somebody believes something that strikes you as unbelievable they must not be “Christian”.
Michael L.
I think your questions are irrelevant to the discussion, unless you can show me how they tie into your definition of who is a true disciple of Jesus.
Well… if you would be so kind as to “indulge me” 😉 I’ll then provide you with somewhat of a definition and/or an explanation.
And yes… there is a reason behind my madness…and yes your reaction is not unfamiliar to me…and yes it doesn’t necessarily bode well.
But please don’t misunderstand me… there is no judgement, nor any less love or respect for you in any of the statements I made. It’s the hard part of written communication that things can get interpreted wrongly quite quickly.
In Him
Jared,
I tried to post this comment before your last one and my computer went nuts for a minute and it didn’t get sent.
I had originally posted this in a comment up above and this is still probably my biggest concern:
“I would like to make a comment on the question you asked in your last paragraph above to Kara. Second Corinthians 11:4 speaks of someone preaching another Jesus, another gospel and the possibility of receiving another Spirit. And Galatians chapter one speaks of another gospel than the one Paul was preaching.
My concern here is that even if Joseph Smith professed faith in Jesus, the Jesus that the Mormons seem to believe in is so different than the one that we find in the Bible that I think He would very well qualify as another Jesus.
If the Jesus believed in isn’t the real Jesus, can that Jesus save Joseph Smith or any one else? Only the real Jesus as He has shown Himself is able to save.”
The differences I am aware of at the moment that concern me–there may be more, I don’t know–are the fact that the Mormon Jesus hasn’t always been God but was once a man that attained to Godhood, the Mormon Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer, and the Mormon Jesus was not born by the Holy Spirit coming upon the Virgin Mary. Those things alone make me think we are not talking about the same Jesus here. We are using the same name, yes, but those things give such a different understanding of who Jesus is that He is not at all the same person in my mind.
Here is a verse from the Bible that talks about the importance of what we believe?
I Timothy 4 16: “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”
Paul tells Timothy that he needs to heed “the doctrine” that he might be saved and that his hearers may be saved too. That is another verse that explains why some of us get so concerned when we see doctrine that is so far different than what the Bible teaches as truth. It does matter what we believe if we want to be saved.
2 Corinthians 11 says nothing about the definition of who is as disciple of Jesus, It says nothing about “another Jesus”.
The “another Jesus” idea is basically a red herring to me that dodges the biblical definition of Chrisitianity and substitutes some derivative theological test, that most Christian churches in the world do not agree with.
There is nothing in anything Jesus said that gives that sort of theological test in order to become one of his followers. It is clear from the Gospels that you can have very different views of who Jesus was and still be “true followers”. i.e. Mark’s Jesus is different from John’s Jesus for example. Matthew felt the need to completely revise, edit and add to Mark.
The person we are talking about is precisely the same person, i.e. the person described in Matthew,Mark, Luke and John. We may disagree on his attributes, and the meaning of his words, but we are following the same words. Saying that it is a “different” Jesus is not logical or biblical, its just away of remaining safe within your own theological cocoon.
Michael,
Indulge me first! 🙂
I Timothy 4 16: “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”
Where does this say that if you don’t understand, accept or believe a certain doctrine you won’t be a follower of Jesus?
It simply says that if Timothy watches his life and what he believe carefully and then tries to make his life and the doctrine move together that he can find salvation for himself and those that he teaches.
NIV seems a bit clearer: “Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.”
This scripture is the very definition of the Mormon idea of religion.
LOL Jared C.
I love it ! OK, here’s the deal.
I have to run and pick up a child at school. If, by the time I make it back to my house (count about an hour or so), you haven’t responded, I will post my answer and reasoning. But do note, I will not grant you the chance to answer the questions after my answers. It kinda like waiting for the Trivia answers before answering the Trivia question.
And btw.. you would not be the first and not the last to answer the questions. Alma did so earlier as well.
In Him
Come on Jared, all of the Gospels depict Jesus as God come in the flesh doing works and teaching in ways that show He is God. Yes there are different details given. But to even begin to compare the differences in the 4 Gospels stories of Jesus, to the differences that Mormons believe about Jesus to be the same thing is absolutely ludicrous to me! It is like comparing apples and oranges!
Can you please tell me where in the 4 Gospels you get the idea that Jesus was born from a union of the Father, not the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary?
Can you tell me where in those Gospels you get the idea that Jesus was once a man that attained to Godhood?
Can you tell me please where in those Gospels you get the idea that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer?
The Jesus you are talking about IS very different that the one presented in the four Gospels.
As far as I can tell, none of those ideas come from the Bible at all.
You can go ahead and believe in a Jesus that is vastly different than the one spoken of in the Bible. But for myself, I’ll stick with believing in the one that is revealed in the pages of that book.