Is the Mormon Faith a True Representation of Christianity?

TU&D #44–My statement in its entirety #43 absolutely represents the quality of love in my heart. As gently as my humanity would allow I tried to let you know that the tone of your discourse got in the way of me being able to hear anything you had to say.
Steve Martin #46–The reason I began to comment on this topic is because the experience/conversation I was having with the LDS who came to visit me led me to believe they did believe Jesus is part of the God head and also believe His saving work on the cross is “enough”. So perhaps, just like protestant and Roman Catholic Christians, the LDS do not all agree about what they believe.

Well, if we can agree that there was an actual person, Jesus, who lived on earth as the Son of God, and we choose to follow what he has said in the Gospels, don’t we all qualify as followers?

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all had quite different views of Jesus, sometimes radically different, but we wouldn’t say that they were not followers.

I agree that in the past Mormon leaders denounced Christian creeds as apostate, but we didn’t put anybody to death for heresy . . .

Maybe you can find it in your heart to forgive Mormons for their “merciless” attacks.

My point is that there is a command from Jesus, who certainly didn’t approve of contention, and maybe we all haven’t been following it, but that doesn’t make it less valid.

As long as we are engaging in Real Christian Detection, why don’t we turn this around and ask whether Roman Catholicism is a True representation of Christianity? They worship the Virgin Mary, don’t they? How about Seventh Day Adventists? Episcopalians? I bet we would have an equally lively discussion. It could be like watching a real live version of the inter-church council scene in Elmer Gantry.

Steve Martin wrote:
Maybe I do not have the best grasp of Mormon theology…but then neither do these Mormon men (mostly) that I speak to on the street. Every one of them has told me that Jesus is not God Himself.

It’s hard to defend the beliefs of anonymous Mormons because I’m not certain you’ve understood them and they aren’t here to explain themselves. But I can say that if they’re actually Mormons, they accept the Book of Mormon and it clearly teaches that Jesus is God. The title page says the purpose of the Book of Mormon is to convince everyone that “JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD,” (caps in original). If they don’t believe that, you might want to ask them why.

They all said said Jesus’ work on the cross is not enough..we must also DO X
X, Y, and Z..

Well, I’d say they’re in good company. While I doubt they used the words “not enough” and that’s probably your estimation of their idea—do you not remember that when Peter was preaching at Pentecost and the multitude asked, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Did Peter respond with an “X,Y, and Z” or did he say, “Nothing, it’s all been done!” I submit that Peter’s instructions carry more weight than the conclusions of later philosophers to believe that X,Y and Z aren’t really required.

Not a one of said they believed in original sin.

Depending on how you understand it, I might not believe it either since the term appears nowhere in the Bible.

That kind of thinking is just not Christian. I’m not saying that they are not Christians. But those doctrines do go against Christian orthodoxy.

If you’re using the term “orthodoxy” to refer to “popular Christianity” I would willingly agree that Mormons aren’t in line with traditional Christianity; but if you’re using it as the Greek words orth meaning “correct and doxa meaning opinion, I couldn’t agree because we do believe that orthodox doctrine is found primarily in Mormonism.

Alma

Truth Unites…and Divides cut and pasted Richard Abanes comments

Mormonism got started….

Your source is mistaken, TU&D; but since it’s someone else’s claim, I’ll defer responding to his claims until he shows up and is able to defend them.

Anyone who claims that Mormonism believes in a “perverted” Bible doesn’t have an elementary concept of LDS theology. They fail to realize that part of the LDS canon is the Holy Bible. I know all about the 8th Article of Faith, but before you cite it to me, produce a Christian who is willing to accept a Bible passage that he knows is translated incorrectly.

Alma

Alma and Jared (and any other Mormons commenting here),

I have been following these comments with interest since this thread started. Maybe I have missed it, but I don’t recall any of you interacting with the quotes from Mormon literature that were made in comment #26 above. (With the exception of the issue of grace and works). They seem to to at odds with a lot of what is said by you folks elsewhere here. And they certainly express a totally different understanding of things than any other church I know of has. I would like to hear what you have to say on these issues. Thanks.

I

Alma,

Psalms 51:5

“In sin did my mother conceive me.” (original sin)

Look at the selfishness of any baby for confirmation.

St. Paul corrects (over and over) the idea that we need to do anything in addition to what Christ has done. He famously corrects Peter on this.

Thanks, Alma

I would still appreciate it if someone would tackle my questions from comment #2.

Eclectic Christian,

Hey Mike!

Nobody has a great definition of the Trinity.

If anyone says they understand it, they are delusional.

We believe it. But we don’t understand it. Like the forgiveness of sins by a death on the cross. Who can understand how that works?

The sinner’s prayer is actual a dangerous thing (I believe). Not only for 6 year olds but for anyone.

This isn’t a business transaction (the Christian faith), but rather a relationship…started by , and continued by Jesus.

I’ll go and check your site. You ALWAYS have great stuff over there!

Thanks, Mike!

– Steve M.

Thanks for the respone Steve.

By definition of the Trinity, I meant as it is defined in the early Creeds. We can’t expect new believers to have perfect doctrine, as their knowledge is very limited.

But do you have to believe in the Deity of Christ to be a Christian for example? If not, why not?

Cheryl,

The cut and paste from #26 would take more time than I have to adequately address. Generally I prefer not to respond to cut and pastes because the person who appropriated the material isn’t willing to discuss or defend it and generally responds by pasting more data from another web site.

The author (Bill McKeever) and I have personally spoken and I don’t see any benefit in writing out a lengthy response to his article from MRM–although I could probably cut and paste someone else’s response…

The second to the last sentence, however, does merit a reply. McKeever’s assertion is either dishonest or naive. Christians have taught the doctrine of theosis for centuries. Beginning with Christ, Peter, John, Irenaeus, Origen, Tertullian and Augustine all taught deification. Consider merely one of scores of similar quotations: “For we shall be even gods, if we, shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, “I have said, Ye are gods,”(5) and, “God standeth in the congregation of the gods.”(6) But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods.” (ANF Vol. III, Tertulliam, Against Hermogenes 480.) You might also search for an article by Robert Rakestraw called I think, “BECOMING LIKE GOD: AN EVANGELICAL DOCTRINE OF THEOSIS.”

Alma

Michael Bell,

Peter’s confession of faith.

Jesus says, (paraphrased) “Blessed are you Simon Peter, for flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven.”

You can’t be a Christian without believing that Jesus is God.

You can say you are one, though.

Cheryl,

I can’t really respond to pages of quotes with a couple of comments on the blog.

There is an entire website devoted to answering these sorts of questions and explaining Mormons non-traditional beliefs to those interested : http://fairlds.org/

I will tell you that Mormons believe a lot of things that are very different than Protestants (and Catholics and Orthodox). To understand the Mormon faith you really have to read what Mormons have to say about it. Others, while offering criticism, are generally interested in scare tactics that distort Mormon belief in order to make it look less appealing. This certainly could be done with almost any tradition.

However, once you understand Mormonism from a Mormon perspective you will probably realize that in important ways, they are not much different than other traditions.

What I can also tell you is that Mormons are very comfortable supporting their non-traditional beliefs with reference to the Bible. By trying to understand where we are coming from, you may open up your mind to what is actually in the Bible, rather than simply what you are told by preachers, websites, etc.

Steve,

Mormons do believe that Jesus is God. Does that make us Christians in your book?

Jared C.,

You’re getting warmer!

When you can say that He is the ONLY God, then maybe we’ll have something.

We need to remember that the devil believes that Jesus is God.

So, there is the question of trust in Him, for our righteousness and reconciliation with God.

This is unbelievable. I’m reminded of how my children twist and change their stories to avoid accepting responsibility.
While trying to be civil, it’s impossible to debate when the participants are disingenuous. You can’t just say “No we believe this way; you dont know what you’re talking about” when the evidence to contrary has been out there in the public for years. There’s no debate where the Mormon’s stand and where Orthodox Christianity stand.

* DNA and archeology have proven the Biblical record manyfold, while the Book of Mormon proven a work of fiction.

* The Mormon’s posting here claim Mormon’s believe Jesus is God, but when exactly did the official church position evolve to this? Mormon theology, officially is that Jesus is a created being, brother of Lucifer, elevated to a “god”. If you are changing this, you’re not an orthodox ipsofacto Mormon.

* An understanding of the Trinity likely isn’t a basis for salvation. We do not know if the thief on the cross understood the Trinity before being saved. Likely not. Salvation is from Grace by faith, in Jesus as God. Jesus made this implicitely clear when asking Peter “Who do you say I am?”

* Mormon rituals are borrowed, at least in origin, from the Masonic Rite, a very hierarchal, secretive group. Hence there is much to the larger group unknown by “lower level”, or non-Temple Mormons.

* That Mormon’s “say” they use the Bible, in practice the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price dominate and are preferred. Joseph Smith likely used the KJV to lend some semblence of credibility to his views. This practice continues to this day.

* The Book of Mormon – “The Most Correct of Any Book on Earth” unfortunately has been revised countless times. So has the Bible, fair enough. The Bible has been revised to correct tense, punctuation, etc., not to remove entire doctrines. The BOM had to be edited to allow African American’s into the Temple and Heaven (or one of the many Heavens); edited to “outlaw” polygamy, etc. Pretty big revisions for a perfect book.

*The BOM borrowed extensively from the 1611 King James Version, word for word, including text we now know, from non-biased textual criticism, were incorrectly translated in 1611.

*The tiny reference to “god-hood” in Psalms 82 and Corinthians are taken completely out of context. These are references to people and angelic beings who would appear to like a god because of the power and authority they possess. It’s a far stretch to strive for personal Godhood, celestial marriage and populating your own planet.

I could go on for sure. These are facts, indisputable, about the official doctrines of the LDS church at large. Are there individuals who hold some beliefs closer to mainstream? I’m sure there are, but to deny these as a true representation of the LDS position is just…..disingenious at best. Otherwise, why are we here debating this as if these facts weren’t common knowledge?

Before you go claiming, I only know what I’ve read from other detractors and I dont know what I’m talking about….my Aunt & Uncle in Provo have been Mormons for 40 years and regularly reach out to us to consider the LDS church. My mother was a Mormon teenagers, excommunicated for having a child out of wedlock. Myself a Mormon recuit in my teens. I’m no expert, but I’m not completely without some insight.

“There’s no debate where the Mormon’s stand and where Orthodox Christianity stand.”

I agree, Mormons believe that “orthodox” Christians have an incomplete and/or errant theology, and vice/versa.

I don’t think that is a matter of debate. However, reading the comments above I find numerous misrepresentations, misunderstandings and intentional distortions of Mormon belief. If you really want to understand and evaluate Mormonism, you should do it on its own terms.

The beliefs of the thief on the cross were surely far different than the average Evangelical Christian today. . . if he was saved shouldn’t you be open to salvation and grace extending to other divergent beliefs?

I don’t really care if you consider Mormons Christians or not, I am interested in opening people’s minds beyond their closed-minded views of God.

Mormonism is based on finding out the truth from God directly. I am sure He is willing to sort this stuff out for those that seek wisdom from Him. I doubt he cares much for the squabbling over doctrine. But that is only what I get from reading the Bible.

Nobody has a great definition of the Trinity. If anyone says they understand it, they are delusional.

And yet, the Lord said: “This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

Alma

And Jesus said to them,

“If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. I and the Father are one.”

Alma,

In my understanding the difference in Mormon belief and Protestant Christian belief, (speaking as one of the latter) is that we don’t believe that we become in essence God as it seems that the Mormons do. And we certainly don’t believe that God was ever a man as we are now as is quoted in # 26 above. That is totally at odds with what we read in the Bible.

And another major area of difference in belief that I don’t believe has been touched on here, is the Mormon belief as stated in quite a few quotes I have read that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, (Satan). That is totally contrary to any understanding we have of Scripture.

These things alone are huge differences and make for huge gaps beweeen us.

Jared C,

You said, “By trying to understand where we are coming from, you may open up your mind to what is actually in the Bible, rather than simply what you are told by preachers, websites, etc.”

Why do you assume that I or anyone else posting here only believes what we are told by preachers, websites, etc? I would say that for myself, I try to evaluate anything said or taught about the Bible by my own reading and understanding of it. Not to say of course that I always have it all right. However, the Bible does encourage examining all things and testing to see if they are the truth. So I believe that to be an unfair characterization. And I would think that many others commenting here would say the same things.

Cheryl U.,

I couldn’t agree more. Well said.

– Steve M.

Steve wrote:

Psalms 51:5 “In sin did my mother conceive me.” (original sin)

I’m intrigued that you can confidently claim this teaches original sin. It seems to me that’s a possible interpretation; but certainly not the only one. Was the author of the Psalm born out of wedlock? Was he referring to being born into a world of sin? Surely there is no sin in being conceived (Heb 13:4).

Look at the selfishness of any baby for confirmation.

Any baby? My that’s a negative concept you harbor. I remember one of my sons woudn’t eat a cookie at pre-school because he wanted to share it with his older brother. Each day he would save his treat and bring it home to share. Your suggestion that “any baby” is selfish doesn’t ring true to me.

St. Paul corrects (over and over) the idea that we need to do anything in addition to what Christ has done. He famously corrects Peter on this.

Perhaps you could give me a citation where Paul corrected Acts 2:38? Even Paul taught that we have received grace “for the obedience that comes from faith.” Certainly Paul disagreed with Peter’s actions I hardly think there’s evidence he corrected Peter “on this.”

Alma

“However, reading the comments above I find numerous misrepresentations, misunderstandings and intentional distortions of Mormon belief.”

-Where? Which ones?

“If you really want to understand and evaluate Mormonism, you should do it on its own terms. ”
-I have done so on it’s own terms. That’s my point, these theological, scientific, and textual errors are facts, directly from the LDS church. What makes you think I haven’t given accurate LDS positions? Perhaps you mean I can only understand Mormonism if I first become one? Sorry, but a burning in the bosom is shaky grounds to build one’s life around.

“The beliefs of the thief on the cross were surely far different than the average Evangelical Christian today. . . if he was saved shouldn’t you be open to salvation and grace extending to other divergent beliefs?”
-The thief believed one concept, he was a sinner, Jesus was God and could forgive him.

“I don’t really care if you consider Mormons Christians or not, I am interested in opening people’s minds beyond their closed-minded views of God. ”
-Having an open mind is commendable, but being gullible is not. The great Aaron Tippin said it “You’ve got to stand for something, or you’ll fall for anything”.

“Mormonism is based on finding out the truth from God directly.
I am sure He is willing to sort this stuff out for those that seek wisdom from Him. I doubt he cares much for the squabbling over doctrine. But that is only what I get from reading the Bible.”
-You’re almost right…..except the large problematic doctrines of the LDS church aren’t in the Bible, not even the KJV.

Alma,

I can see how one might interpret that verse in different ways.

But the verse is aimed at the reader, the hearer. Bible verses are aimed at us all.

In that light, and when we look at our own lives, honestly and look at the human condition…we see that it is true. Sin is a part of us right from the begining.

Sin is not something that we step into and out of like messy gum on the pavement. It is our condition. It is a sickness and we need to be healed. The Great Physician is the only One who can heal us…and He has done that for us…is doing that for us…and will yet do that for us.

Thanks Alma.

– Steve

Cheryl wrote:

In my understanding the difference in Mormon belief and Protestant Christian belief, is that we don’t believe that we become in essence God as it seems that the Mormons do.

I’m not sure I understand why you include the words “in essence.” We don’t become God, we become gods. He grants to us His nature and we become as He is. “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. (Philippians 2:5-6)

And we certainly don’t believe that God was ever a man as we are now as is quoted in # 26 above. That is totally at odds with what we read in the Bible.

Surely you recognize that God (Jesus Christ) was once a man. He was born of the virgin Mary and lived a sinless life and was crucified for our sins. Is it that difficult to believe that Jesus told us, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he the Father doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” (John 5:19) Do you really believe that passage?

nd another major area of difference in belief … is the Mormon belief as stated in quite a few quotes I have read that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, (Satan). That is totally contrary to any understanding we have of Scripture.

I think it’s entirely consistent with scripture. While you could attend LDS Church services for years and probably never hear Jesus referred to as the “spirit brother of Lucifer”–that’s generally the battle cry of critics of Mormonism.

I have over 2000 LDS books in e-text. They represent most of the doctrinal teachings of Mormonism. I did a search in those books for the following terms “Jesus, spirit, Satan or Lucifer.” There were about 40 hits where those terms appeared within the same paragraph, but only four applied to this discussion. Four references (one was responding to critics of Mormonism) in 160 years of publications indicates that this concept is barely on the doctrinal radar screen for Mormons.

However, I believe it is defensible from the Bible. We do believe that we belong to the family of God; (Ephesians 3:15) that He is the Father of spirits (Hebrews 12:9, Acts 17:29), and Jesus is the firstborn spirit child of God (Colossians 1:15). We believe that in that family of God, some of his children rebelled against him and became fallen angels–including Lucifer (2 Peter 2:4). Sons of the same Father are brothers.

Alma

In responding to Jared’s comment to Brian that Brian’s comments were filled with misrepresentations, misunderstandings and disortions, Brian asked:

Where? Which ones?

Pretty much everything you wrote, Brian. I quit reading after about the fourth asterisk because it was clear you didn’t really have a grasp of Mormonism (or other elements like the difference between plurals and possessives.) Let’s look at just a couple of your claims:

DNA and archeology have proven the Biblical record manyfold, while the Book of Mormon proven a work of fiction.

Perhaps you could point me to some scientific data (DNA or archaeological) that has proved any of the following biblical accounts: 1) The Garden of Eden, 2) Noah’s ark, 3) Joseph in Egypt, 4) Abraham, 5) Melchizedek, 6) the Tower of Babel, 7) The Israelite’s journey through Sinai, 8) Manna, 9) Moses 10) Joshua. Don’t misunderstand me–I believe these accounts–I just don’t think you can say they’ve been “proven …manyfold.” Similarly, the claim that DNA or archaeology have disproved the Book of Mormon is merely wishful thinking. Do you realize how hard it is to prove a negative?

* The Mormon’s posting here claim Mormon’s believe Jesus is God, but when exactly did the official church position evolve to this?

This is doctrine from the Book of Mormon–published one month before Joseph Smith organized the Church of Jesus Christ. The title page declares that Jesus Christ is the eternal God. Many other passages contain similar language. Towards the end of the book, there is an account of Jesus appearing to the people and declaring that He (Jesus Christ) is the God of Israel. So you see, Brian, this isn’t an evolution of doctrine; it was foundational to the Church.

I’ll address some of your other comments later. I’m about to miss my bus home.

Alma

Alma,

I’m starting to wonder if Mormons have a grasp of Mormonism.

From everything here, and everyone’s else’s comments on other sites and from my Mormon friends, I have to conclude that it is another ladder climbing religion.
A little bit of God and a little bit of me.

To be fair, many Christians think along those lines also.

But that too, is not Christian.

Christianity is all about God’s work on the cross for us. That fact that we respond to Him after He has made us His own, is neither here nor there.

We all respaond to Him differently and in varying degrees of earnestness and sincerity. Again, totally beside the point.

Jesus Christ is God and He is the Savior and the savior needs no helo from us.

He doesn’t save us because we help Him, He saves us in spite of our efforts to help Him!

Alma,

From your founder Joseph Smith, as quoted in # 26 above, ‘“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.345; also cited in Gospel Principles, p.305).”

That is a totally different concept than what you spoke of above as Jesus once being a man. We do agree on that. But he is saying that God was not from all eternity. That is not Biblical.

On the issue of Jesus and Lucifer being brothers: You said this is barely on the doctirnal radar screen for Mormons. If you think it is on the doctrinal radar screen for Mormons or not seems a little bit immaterial if it has been taught by your leaders as an official part of Mormon doctrine. And obviously it has. It is part of the package of Mormon doctrine if it is talked about a lot or not. Furthermore, we believe that Jesus was indeed God, not a created being as were the angels, including the fallen ones like Lucifer and the demons.

And regarding us becoming God, or gods, here are more of those quotes from # 26 above from some of your Mormon sources:

According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism,
“Logically and naturally, the ultimate desire of a loving Supreme Being is to help his children enjoy all that he enjoys. For Latter-day Saints, the term ‘godhood’ denotes the attainment of such a state—one of having all divine attributes and doing as God does and being as God is” (2:553).

Brigham Young declared,
“The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself; when we have been proved in our present capacity, and been faithful with all things He puts into our possession. We are created, we are born for the express purpose of growing up from the low estate of manhood, to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven. That is the truth about it, just as it is” (Brigham Young, August 8, 1852, Journal of Discourses 3:93).”

I noted in the quote from Brigham Young that God wanted to make us “God’s like Himself”. That sounds to me like he is saying just like Himself–in essence.

When Protestant Christians read verses like the ones you quoted above, I John 3:2 and Philippians 2:5-6, we interpret them differently than you do. That is, I think, because of verses like Isaiah 44, parts of verses 6 and 8 “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God…Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Those verses make it plain that to God, there is no other one equal to Him. He knows no other God.

Alma,

If the title page of the Book of Mormon states that Jesus Christ is the eternal God, why did Joseph Smith say, as quoted above, “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.” Can he have it both ways? Those sound like two totally contradictory statements.

Here is a quote I found on a Mormon web site: “A couplet written by Lorenzo Snow, fifth president of the LDS Church, states: As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be.10”
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/godhead/Godhood_EOM.htm

I believe there is a quote from Joseph Smith stated above that says pretty much the same thing. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that I can think of that can in any way be interpreted to mean that God was once as we are. God is God and has always been so. He did not progress to godhood.

And Jesus Christ did not, according to the Bible, progress to godhood as stated here: “Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ attained godhood (see Christology) and that he marked the path and led the way for others likewise to become exalted divine beings by following him (cf. John 14:3). http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/godhead/Godhood_EOM.htm

Jared C, you said above that we needed to understand Mormon thought from a Mormon perspective to. I’m sorry, but the more I am reading on Mormon sites, the more I realize how extremely different Mormonism is from Protestant Christianity and how very far it seems to stray from the Bible in many very serious ways.

If what I am understanding from Mormon teachings is correct
(and my husband is a former Mormon turned Christian) they believe the only way a woman and children can enter into heaven is from her husband’s belief, and his right standing in the church when he dies. Her husband then literally calls her up from the grave.

How then can that can coincide with the death of Christ on the cross being sufficient for all humankind?

Brian suggested that this is factual:

* The Book of Mormon – “The Most Correct of Any Book on Earth” unfortunately has been revised countless times. So has the Bible, fair enough. The Bible has been revised to correct tense, punctuation, etc., not to remove entire doctrines. The BOM had to be edited to allow African American’s into the Temple and Heaven (or one of the many Heavens); edited to “outlaw” polygamy, etc. Pretty big revisions for a perfect book.

Brian, it seems to me that demonstrating such a claim would be fairly easy. I’d like to offer you a challenge. You claim above that “entire doctrines” have been removed from the Book of Mormon including edited to allow African Americans into the temple and heaven and to outlaw polygamy. Those are fairly significant allegations. I say they’re false and let me offer you some evidence that they are false. You can access the entire first edition of the Book of Mormon at http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/BooMorm.html. The current, (1981) edition is available here: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/contents.

If you’ll search these editions, you’ll find that the references to polygamy (Jacob chapters 2 and 3) remain unchanged. You’ll also find that there is no mention of African Americans anywhere nor any restriction or permission to enter the temple or heaven. The only passage that might relate to that idea is 2 Nephi 26:33: “…and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.”

Additionally, I prepared my own personal edition of the Book of Mormon showing all the changes between the first edition and today’s edition. It can be accessed using Microsoft Reader, a free program downloadable from Microsoft. I’d be happy to email you that edition so that you could look for yourself and know that your claims above have no basis in fact. If you’d like that copy, go to my blog and access my email and ask for the file. It’s 505 KB.

Alma

Alma,

“everything” I wrote was in error. That’s simply
Current Research on Native American genetics are NOT composed in any manner with that of the tribes of Israel. This is not proving a negative, it’s proving the origins of the Native Americans, who were not from the Middle East, but East Asia.

In addition, Archeaology has ZERO, not one iota, of evidence for the existance of the peoples, places, monetary systems, etc. purported to exist in North America in the BOM. However, we have monumental evidence of the tribes, tools, and culture of ancient Native Americans. None of them colloborate the BOM. Again, not an arguement from silence or a negative.

On the other hand, Archeaology has discovered the ancient civilizations of Sodom and Gomorrah, Nineveh, David’s kingship. Evidence colloborates the monies and tools used and written about in the OT and NT. The Garden of Eden? Manna? Come on! Modern science affirms the validity of much of the OT and NT, and does just the opposite for the BOM. That there are some things still undiscovered by archeology doesn’t negate the existing evidence.

Your assertion that the LDS church has always held the belief that Christ is one and the same as God the Father, in essence, is just baffling. There are already numerous posts on this thread directly from LDS sources that confirm otherwise. I suppose we could just stay here, I’ll say it is, you’ll say it isn’t, until we’re blue in the face. It’s already a matter of record.

It doesn’t make a lot of sense to say that Jesus and God are separate persons AND of the same “essence” . It is a meaningless statement. There is no way to describe how this can be.

Mormons’ naturally reject such strange notions.

Jared C.,

A lot of things about God don’t make sense to our rational mind.

A fish swallowing a man and then spitting him out three days later…alive?

A man waklking on water?

The blind seeing again?

The raising of the dead?

All our sins being forgiven by a death of a man staked to wood and left to die?

Can one make perfect sense out of these things?

God’s ways are not our ways, and some things of God are just not meant for our rational minds to grasp.

That is where faith comes in.

By the way, in Revelation 21:3, after the New Heavens, New Earth, and New Jerusalem are seen, God speaks and He says that the ones He will be dwelling with there are MEN, his people. And in Revelation 22:3 he speaks of them as His servants. If God calls the ones that are with Him for all eternity MEN and not gods, I reckon that He knows what He is talking about!

Jared C.
You would call me ignorant and misinformed when I told you plainly it was on the website for LDS? And it is written in the BoM, Pearl of Great Price, Times and Seasons, Family Home Magazine, Doctrines and Covenants. So how can I take out of context a sentence repeated?

The only reason you call me bigoted is because you have no other recourse. You cannot say I am telling the truth because that would make Mormon prophets liars. You cannot say I am lying because that would make you have to justify your beliefs. So what is left? You calling me a bigot. Do you think I should show you tolerance or acceptance? Which should I do, when it the very Bible that your leaders tell you to follow (but only certain parts) says “If ANYONE comes teaching something DIFFERENT than what you have learned, count him ACCURSED”. And “Try the spirits to see if they be of God”.

You show me outside of your “testimony” that it is true, you teach it is because your spirit is in agreement. So let’s see here….

Your spirit is in agreement with an man who hid wives to avoid his wife from knowing…that’s adultery and deception…so is the average Mormon in agreement with that?

Your spirit is in agreement with using seerstones to translate an extra-Biblical book….so the average Mormon is in agreement with using witchcraft to translate?

Your spirit is in agreement with teaching God was a fleshly man, contrary to the Bible..so the average Mormon is in agreement with being contrary to the Bible?

Your spirit is in agreement with those spirits…interesting…

So far let’s see…lying, deception, veiled doctrine, changing at whim, witchcraft, but the one important thing is this…from the Book of Amos “How can any two walk together except they be in agreement?”

So before you call me bigoted and narrow minded consider this, why did your Brigham Young marry a teen girl, get her pregnant under the auspices of the church and leave her to tend to her children in poverty on occasionally visiting her? You think you should be exempt from scrutiny any more than what Joseph Smith did himself? He questioned us first, then walked away from the true God and created a new religion that satisfied….get this….his own flesh…and you can say today that I am wrong, but until you denounce Joseph Smith, you walk in agreement with him.

I affirm Kara Kittle.

Kara,

This is what I find totally ridiculous, inaccurate and false:

From comment 17:

” they publicly denounce what they secretly practice
they are secretive, deceptive and violent”

“They used witchcraft and recognized magick rituals still used today by Wiccans and other pagan religions.”

These comments are similar to the anti-christians who say that the Bible is a immoral, violent and racist book.

These statements are bigoted and narrow-minded because they mischaracterize Mormonism simply to make it “scary” or appear evil. Mormons aren’t, in general evil, the church is not a cult, we don’t brainwash people etc.

Mormons do believe some radically different things about God, mankind and our purpose on earth, but many of these beliefs can be supported by the Bible. This is, of course, worthy of a lot of debate and explanation.

Regarding your “Spirit in agreement” idea. I respect Joseph Smith, his life and teachings and I think he did a pretty good job, I recognize he had his faults, but I believe that God will forgive a lot of sins, even the really, really bad ones. Don’t you?

Even if Joseph was terribly wrong about the Bible or God, he did profess Christ and rely on his saving sacrifice, this is absolutely clear in his teachings and his life. Isn’t grace sufficient for him?

Jared C,

I would like to make a comment on the question you asked in your last paragraph above to Kara. Second Corinthians 11:4 speaks of someone preaching another Jesus, another gospel and the possibility of receiving another Spirit. And Galatians chapter one speaks of another gospel than the one Paul was preaching.

My concern here is that even if Joseph Smith professed faith in Jesus, the Jesus that the Mormons seem to believe in is so different than the one that we find in the Bible that I think He would very well qualify as another Jesus.

If the Jesus believed in isn’t the real Jesus, can that Jesus save Joseph Smith or any one else? Only the real Jesus as He has shown Himself is able to save.

Ok, you say, even if Joseph Smith is terribly wrong on the Bible….is that not a red flag? You put your faith in someone who could be “terribly wrong” about the very Bible who clearly defines who Jesus is?

You put your faith in some who could be “terribly wrong”, and this person who said God was a man like you and I?

Perhaps he was “terribly wrong” about Moroni giving him a translation.

Let me give you some Bible, which you say you believe…

Jeremiah 14:14
Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Seerstones are divination as are diving rods…which Brigham Young
measured for the temple in Salt Lake City.

I would think before you put your faith in the teaching of someone who could be “terribly wrong”, you should make sure he’s not teaching out of his own imagination from the deceit of his heart.

Matthew 7
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Oh no….he could have been terribly wrong…

Let’s see what your faith is based on

President Joseph Smith
1st President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
June 16, 1844
Meeting in the Grove, east of the Temple
Sunday Morning
“I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years. ”

http://www.moroni10.com/General_Conference/Joseph_Smith_Final_Talk.html

Elohim is indeed the trinity, but these three are one
1 John 5
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

These Three are ONE. How much more plainer can John be?

So if your Holy Ghost is telling you something contrary to the Holy Ghost of the Bible…then is that not something to think about?

I first submitted this comment yesterday but it has been in moderation, I am assuming because it has more than one link in it. That has happened on other sites when using multiple links if I remember right. So I am going to try and submit it again–in two comments this time. So, if this ends up being on here twice, please accept my apologies. And moderators, if this comment was in moderation for some other reason, please accept my apologies for trying to put it through again also.

Anyway, here is the first part of the comment:

Here is a quote I found on a Mormon web site: “A couplet written by Lorenzo Snow, fifth president of the LDS Church, states: As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be.10″
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/godhead/Godhood_EOM.htm

I believe there is a quote from Joseph Smith stated above that says pretty much the same thing. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that I can think of that can in any way be interpreted to mean that God was once as we are. God is God and has always been so. He did not progress to godhood.

Here is the second part of the comment I tried to make yesterday (except for correcting an error I had made):

And Jesus Christ did not, according to the Bible, progress to godhood as stated here: “Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ attained godhood (see Christology) and that he marked the path and led the way for others likewise to become exalted divine beings by following him (cf. John 14:3). http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/godhead/Godhood_EOM.htm

Jared C, you said above that we needed to understand Mormon thought from a Mormon perspective and we would maybe see that it is true to the Bible. I’m sorry, but the more I am reading on Mormon sites, the more I realize how extremely different Mormonism is from Protestant Christianity and how very far it seems to stray from the Bible in many very serious ways.

T.U.and D., Kara, and Cheryl,

You make quite valid assertions that cannot be ignored if one is to be intellectually honest.

I think that one should recognize the faults of one’s own particular group and then go from there.

I am a Lutheran who realizes that Martin Luther said some really stupid things…but he said and did a lot of great things that were centered on the person of Christ Jesus and not around the ascendency of man.

The church denomination I belong to now says and does stupid things…and we call them on it!

This acknowledgment and reforming process must constantly be on guard for those that would present ‘another gospel’.

Mormonism is another gospel. It is a progressive self-justifying project that uses a lot of religious words from the Bible, but does not place Christ Jesus as the ONLY way to become what we cannnot become of our efforts. Our efforts actually make the problem worse. (“all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags.” Isa 64:6

Thanks!

– Steve M.

Cheryl
This is a good website, it has transcribed speeches of every LDS prophet
http://www.moroni10.com/General_Conference/prophets_first_last_talks.html

Just for clarification so Jared does not think we are muddying the waters by not knowing anything….these are actual words by the actual men…and very interesting too I might add…this is what Wilford Woodruff said in his final speech

President Wilford Woodruff
4th President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
April 1898
69th Annual General Conference
Sunday Overflow Session

“In April, 1838, while in the town of Kirtland, in walking across the street I met two men who held the Apostleship. They said to me, “Brother Woodruff, we have something that we want you to join us in.” Said I, “What is it? “We want another Prophet to lead us.” “Whom do you want?” “We want Oliver Cowdery. Joseph Smith has apostatized.” After listening to them, I said to them: “Unless you repent of your sins you will be damned and go to hell, and you will go through the fulness of eternal damnation, and all your hopes in this life will pass before you like the frost before the rising sun. You are false. Joseph Smith has not apostatized. He holds the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, and will hold them until the coming of the Son of Man, whether in this world or in the world to come.” I am happy to say that those men did repent pretty soon, turned to the Church, and died in it.”

Who hold the keys? I think it is great blasphemy to say Joseph Smith holds the keys considering the Bible says it is Jesus who holds them. That in itself is irreverant, and blasphemous. And so if Joseph Smith holds the keys for them…is he also going to defeat death by resurrecting himself by his own power?

steve,
Martin Luther was calling the Catholic Church up on what they were teaching. Very much so. But at least he had boldness. And we must remember that Martin Luther was Catholic at the time he nailed it to the door and he was challenging the corruption of the priests. Martin Luther did not change the Gospel to justify his actions, he was honestly doing what he believed.

Martin Luther of course made mistakes, but not to the point of deceiving thousands of people and claiming he had the only new revelation. He did not present to us another Gospel, he just wanted to reform the one he was in.

Kara,

Good points! Points that make my point even more clear.

Luther was in a corrupt church that was corrupting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

At the risk of life and limb, he set out to reform the church. They kicked him out, and the Reformation was born.

If there were some strong Mormons who would do the same thing in Salt Lake, who knows what would happen.

Someone needs to say it, “The Emperor has no clothes!”

LOL…and Steve I keep imagining you with a pharaoh headgear on singing “King Tut”….Alma said up there a while ago that we must be apologetics or something else not so nice. I took it as a compliment…as a Trinity Pentecostal we have so few apologetics…it was refreshing to hear that. Woot Woot, we have come so far, faced with the same persecutions that Mormons have faced and yet never once denied who Jesus is.

When I read what Wilford Woodruff said, I felt 5 generations before me roll over in their graves. My great-grandfather was stoned by his family for converting from Catholicism…this was in Ireland. So I have a deep compassion for those being persecuted.

Well I guess it would be fair if he would address the issues in Pentecostalism like snake handling and drinking strychnine and other things some Pentecostals have done. One of my great-grandmothers did just that, but her faith was so great she was never bitten or was never poisoned…and she would put her hands on the burning coal stove. She was never burned. But as much as we could call those strange rituals…at least they believed it was Biblical. As for me…..no I would not do that.

Pentecostal/Charismatic also believe in the gifts in operation so therefore we believe in prophesy and tongues. But to mark the difference in how we perceive prophets and how Mormons do…prophets can be from any church, it is for edification of the church and it is held to scrutiny of Biblical standards. We don’t just have crazy people running around saying crazy things (well perhaps we do, but those people are still held to the same standard). I just realized last night that Kenneth Copeland is quasi-Mormon but he does not really represent Pentecostals very well and many will denounce him. I am one who has for a long time before I knew what Mormons believe.

At the end of the day I have to ask myself, did I end my day believing in Truth? If there is anything that is in me contrary to the word of God, then I need to be cleansed of it. Thankfully I believe in the indwelling of the Holy Ghost to help me because I am so unable to do so myself. Just an example of how I know God works…

One day I was working at a place and we got the news that one of our co-workers mother was in a terrible car accident and was in ICU and we decided to gather and hold hands in prayer for this person. As we were praying to Jesus to heal this person, a little Hindu woman was standing by and with tears streaming down her face asked if she could pray with us.

Of course she heard us call out loudly to Jesus and it moved in her heart. That is the grace of God that I believe in. We said sure and she prayed with us, the little red dot on her forehead telling the world what she was, now holding the hands of some crazy loud Pentecostals….

Just the day before, this same woman was trying to teach me about self-realization as the Hindu faith teaches…she never did after this. That is the power of the grace of God, to turn hearts to Him, the salvic work of Jesus was finished at the cross. The old order of priesthood was done away with at the cross and I and you can enter into the presence of God ourselves and ask for forgiveness. That is it, the answer….It is Finished.

Thanks for the link, Kara. I will have to check it out when I have more time than I do tonight.

Cheryl, a couple of comments and questions:

I’m not sure you read what I wrote. I pointed out that Jesus Christ is God and once was a man on earth. Inasmuch as He declared that he only does what he sees his Father do, I pointed out that it isn’t unbiblical to conclude that the Father once was just as His Son. I know you think that the Bible teaches that God has always been God, but those are interpretations of the biblical text rather than explicit in the text.

Secondly, even though I mentioned that the “spirit brother of Lucifer” concept was mainly trumpeted by critics of Mormonism, I agreed that it is a logical and biblical doctrine; and I provided you with several passages teaching the underlying concepts.

You claim that “Jesus was indeed God, not a created being as were the angels…” Where do you come up with the idea that angels are “created beings?”

I don’t have a problem with God’s children eventually becoming just like Him in every way. That is the nature of offspring. We are the offspring of God. Early Christian leaders taught that concept and it appears throughout early Christianity—and in the religion of the patriarchs. In the Clementine Homilies, Peter is quoted as having taught, “The bodies of men have immortal souls, which have been clothed with the breath of God; and having come forth from God, they are of the same substance…” You might want to use the word essence.

You don’t need to cite Brigham Young and Joseph Smith as if I needed to be convinced of what they actually taught. I’m aware of their teachings and fully believe them. Joseph Smith claimed that God told him that the early doctrines of Christianity had been changed and denied. Joseph Smith learned those doctrines from God and reestablished them. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that they’re in opposition to “orthodox” Christianity. If they weren’t there would have been no need of Joseph Smith restoring ancient Christianity.

Alma