I remember when I was young, I was taught that there was a place called “Abraham’s Bosom.” The way it was explained to me made perfect sense at the time. You go to heaven if you trust in Christ. You go to hell if you don’t. People go to heaven because Christ’s atonement on the cross paid for their sins. God cannot be in the presence of sin (Hab. 1:13). Therefore, those who are covered by Christ’s death can be in the presence of God. Those who are not, cannot. 

So far so good? But there is a problem: what about all God’s people who came before Christ’s death? What about Abraham, Moses, David, and Isaiah? According to the theory, they were not yet covered by Christ blood. Conclusion: they, before Christ’s death, were not in the presence of God. They were somewhere else waiting for their sins to be covered.

This “somewhere else” was known as “Abraham’s Bosom.” Think “Protestant Purgatory” or something like that. Abraham’s Bosom existed as a holding tank for God’s people until Christ’s death on the cross. Once the atonement was made, Abraham’s Bosom it was vacated as all its occupants were ushered into God’s presence in heaven.

The name “Abraham’s Bosom” came from the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16. “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried” (Luke 16:22). Notice, this parable was given before Christ’s atonement. Therefore, people have said that this must be the place, between heaven and hell, that pre-Cross saints went to.

Why there is no such thing as Abraham’s Bosom

As nice and tidy as that might sound theologically and biblically, it does not really work. There is no such place as Abraham’s Bosom.

First, the idea that God cannot be in the presence of sin is untenable.

The passage in Hab. 1:13 simply means that God is too pure to approve sin. It has nothing to do with sin or evil being in God’s presence. Here are some of the reasons:

  • After the fall, we find God walking in the Eden with Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:8).
  • Satan himself can be in God’s presence. In Job 1:6, we see Satan presenting himself before God (see also 1 Chron 18:18-21; Rev. 12:10).
  • Christians, who are still sinners (1 John 1:8), are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Obviously the Holy Spirit must be able to be in the presence of sin.
  • Christ, God incarnate, was in the presence of sin the whole time he walked the earth (John 1:14). He was even carried in the womb of a sinner!

Second, the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus does not teach that “Abraham’s Bosom” is a separate heaven.

In the parable, Christ is confronting the religious leaders’ bad theology. They were lovers of money (Luke 16:14). They believed that being rich and healthy was a sign that God was on your side. If you were poor and sick then God was not with you. In the parable, the rich man, whom all the Pharisees thought was the best Jew with great rewards waiting for him in heaven, found himself in torment in Hell. The poor sick man, who was, in the mind of the Pharisees, a bad Jew, was ushered by the angels to Abraham’s “side” or “bosom.” The idea is not ontological (dealing with a physical place), but relational. To be at one’s side or bosom represented the closest place of fellowship one could have with another. The one who the Pharisees believed was not a good child of Abraham winds up at the closest place of fellowship that there is—Abraham’s bosom. Christ was being rhetorical. The rich man is unnamed and forgotten forever. Lazarus’ name means “God helps”. The rich man dies and is buried. The poor man dies and is carried by the angels. The rich man goes to hell, “far away” from Abraham (Luke 16:23). The poor man goes to Abraham’s side, in heaven.


Saints in the Old Testament did not need a special dispensation. God can be in the presence of sin. If he could not be in the presence of sin, we are in big trouble. Nevertheless, they were forgiven in anticipation of Christ’s atonement. When David, Abraham, Moses, and other Old Testament saints died, they immediately went into the presence of God on the bases of Christ’s shed blood, though yet future.

Romans 3:24-26
“Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”

C Michael Patton
C Michael Patton

C. Michael Patton is the primary contributor to the Parchment and Pen/Credo House Blog. He has been in ministry for nearly twenty years as a pastor, author, speaker, and blogger. Th.M. Dallas Theological Seminary (2001), president of Credo House Ministries and Credo Courses, author of Now that I'm a Christian (Crossway, 2014) Increase My Faith (Credo House, 2011), and The Theology Program (Reclaiming the Mind Ministries, 2001-2006), host of Theology Unplugged, and primary blogger here at Parchment and Pen. But, most importantly, husband to a beautiful wife and father to four awesome children. Michael is available for speaking engagements. Find him everywhere: Find him everywhere

    335 replies to "The Myth of “Abraham’s Bosom”"

    • Jay Altieri

      286 cyrus stirred in spirit. I agree, my point is that all of those emotions and verbs that you list come from the psyche: take action, vigorously desire, driving a man, having zeal. Those were your words. If it includes thought and action, then by definition, a priori, it must come from the psyche. I think you are playing musical chairs with the definition of spirit and soul, which makes this very confusing. My point has been from the beginning that frequently metaphor, figures of speech are used. If you take it woodenly literal it will off kilter the very meaning of the words, in which case nothing has meaning.

      291- my comment that not all Israel was dead was in #266 ref to Rom 15:27. Your taking what I said there +applying it to 1Cor10:3-4 from post 268. I’m not sure if that is a fair crossover, but anyway Yes Israel with Moses was spiritually dead. Even Moses was dead, because Jesus was the firstborn. If you want to come down hard on me for believing that Jesus was prime, unique trailblazer, the first human (after Adam’s short stint) to be in God’s spiritual presence, then weigh your words carefully, Because so many other doctrines are affected by the Primacy of Christ.
      Spiritual means (get your dictionary out) of the spirit realm, not physical or worldly. It comes from the root word meaning breath. Breath invisibly animates the body as (this is now simile-metaphor) the spirit realm (Gary’s 2nd circle) animates the physical realm (1st circle)
      In 1Cor 10:3 it is used to mean miraculous/not physical. They did not eat invisible food. It never says that ancient Israel was spiritually alive, I think you read that into the text.
      In Rom 15:27 Israel has received non-physical blessings again. It is speaking of believers (Rom 15:25), the blessing they were given is salvation by the gospel of Christ(Rom 15:19). Although again it does not say that they were spiritually alive, I think following Jesus they are.

    • patrick


      Hope you are sitting down.

      Where was Jesus for those 3 days? You…think he was conscious…in sheol/ab…& took field…trips to preach to spirits of men, who have…no body, but were…alive & functioning?: As Yeshua stated, He was in the depths of the earth those 3 days. I believe Him. Do you? I’ve said that He preached law & proclaimed grace to anteD spirit/souls (you believe in living flesh/souls). The anteDs ALL BELIEVED IN GOD, He wasn’t a Lawgiver, & so no Judge. They had a Creator that initially had little-to-no expectations of His creatures.
      Digression: God gave no demonstration of His Sovereignty, besides setting a cherub guard against return into Eden (perhaps He was viewed by the majority as the reclusive Grouch-King). God, to the anteDs, was essentially a King with no apparent teeth (like the world today sometimes portrays) a feeble Old Man w/ a long white beard: He told Adam he would die in the day he ate of the tree, but Adam endured another 900+ yrs; He said a seed would come to crush the serpent, but it didn’t come; He told Cain he would be a vagabond, but Cain immediately went & built a city to live in; the 1st ref to the cursed earth comes at the time of the birth of Noah (1,056AM), or 56 yrs into the new Epoch Day 1 (& was obviously a new thing based on Lamech’s words), because God only did good during His Mil. Sab. rest – so no Gen.3 curses came until 1k yrs after the eviction – so the majority of anteDs probably viewed God as slack, as some count slackness …

    • patrick

      … They told Him, “Depart from us!” (Job 22:15-18). They did not fear Him at all because of His disregarded goodness. Even Abel, w/ his acceptable sacrifice of blood & death, probably didn’t understand what it was he was offering. Did He really comprehend that his acceptable sacrifice represented God’s Son’s future bloody atoning death? More likely, in my view, he was repeating what God Himself had already done when He initially clothed his mom & dad – slayed innocent animals. Man really took animal sacrifice (& even human) & ran w/ it because THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND GOD. Able probably understood his offering as a covering (clothes) to prevent shame, instead of a sacrifice (innocent shed blood) to cover sins. Who of the anteDs understood God, & what was their basis of understanding? Men later began to call on God’s name because they saw the consequence of having demanded His departure – something came in to fill the void (FAs). But these were not reclusive/slack, but social/vigorous. They taught man many wicked things that persist to the present. Man was wicked after the fall, yes, & perhaps even more so than today, but only because the earth remained un-cursed for 1k yrs, leaving man more free time to develop evil. They, like we, needed condemnation/restoration. And God’s Deliverer, prophesied to crush the serpent’s head, would provide both – but not in their days! God responded to the few who called on His name about the time of Enoch (1st Melchizadekian priest because no laws were yet given, save to Adam), foretelling them of a coming judgment. These began to understand (like Yeshua’s disciples) that the things their Creator spoke about were not things that would immediately come to pass. …

    • patrick

      … At that point in time it can clearly be seen that the purebred men of Seth’s righteous (God-fearing) line clearly began to dwindle – 2 occurrences of 180 yrs between gens instead of 65 yrs – Noah waited 500 yrs before he had triplet sons that would carry over into the new (cursed) world, complete w/ God-given laws. The 1st age (dispensation) closed. God has therefore gone on record (w/ preserved anteD witnesses) that sinful man cannot live on a good (un-cursed) earth & rule himself w/o God. The results lead to a hedonistic violent race of man bent on destroying themselves & the world. The latter end of this same dispensation also demonstrates God’s worthiness over that of malukim, who would turn mankind into an horrific mutant & unredeemable master race in order to establish who is the mightiest ruler (their view of worthiness) among them.
      End Digress.
      As Yeshua hung on His cross He took on all the sins of the world, but, oddly enough, He was innocent of any personal sin. He was prime in this way: that He was the first to be sinless in a sinful world. That made Him the only potential key to reopen that long shut door to the spiritual realm (lobotomy, not beheading). My view sees Death trying to take Him, but not successfully; although Yeshua should have died for 1 single lie, yet the wages of sin kept futilely washing over Him in billows over His head – but He would not die (drown). He completely emptied the 1st Universal Bank of Sin of all its funds & still endured upon His cross. …

    • patrick

      … Then, after plundering the strong man’s house, He freely surrendered His life BY HIS OWN WILL (no one takes My life, but I given it up freely – the Father has granted Me power to lay down My life & to take it up again, etc..) in order to
      1) deposit His 1st follower in AB (aka Paradise), as promised, & spend the day among those fellow resting souls now basking in the Spirit’s life-giving presence,
      2) deliver the law/grace messages to the anteDs, probably in Tartarus (living spirits imprisoned – similar to FAs, who no doubt also heard the messages as well – things which angelos desire to look into?), so the AnteDs would finally understand the goodness & severity of God,
      3) secure the keys to Hades & Death, probably from the place of torment, in a glorious show of triumphant invincibility & a new living hope,
      & 4) confirm to God & all creatures above, on & under the earth that Yeshua indeed, & alone, was worthy to become the Messiah.
      All in all a busy itinerary for the Son of God/Son of Man, whose body was all the while dead (but incorruptibly preserved & awaiting His res), whose spirit He commended back to God (which caused His soul to depart from His body), BUT, BY GOD’s SPIRIT (1Pet.3:18-19) yet abiding in Him, His still CONSCIOUS soul descended into the depths of SHEOL to do all the things He is precisely attested to have done there in that real spiritual realm.

    • patrick


      who are Daniel’s people?: Genetic Israelites. Dan.12:1-2 is clear. The actual wordage is, “the sons of your people” and it also says, “your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book”, so its just Daniel’s kin. The next verse clears it up further in that some of his people will awake to everlasting life, while some will awake to EVERLASTING (not temporary and then Poof! To ashes) contempt.

    • Jay Altieri

      291- I fully agree with your olive tree comments. You will like my church-Israel study.
      Then you ask several questions:”Who were full set of branches in the living, spiritual, olive tree.” Rom 11 never uses the word “spiritual”, so your question is biased and not right. The olive tree is a symbol for God’s people (Israel).The roots were the OT saints:David+Hez, etc. It never says anything about them being spiritual. The branches are NT saints (both Hebrew and gentile). Read my paper to more fully answer the rest of your questions: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/church%20israel.htm

      Biblically a Jew and an Israelite are identical, although there may be a difference in modern lingo. Jew being a religion +Israelite being a nationality. Jew is a contraction of Judah, which is synecdoche for all Israel, first used in Persian days. It is freqly used in Neh+ Estr. After the exile, all the tribes returned or at least a remnant to qualify as quorum. Sorry, no 10lost tribes.
      By NT period, Jew meant a person from Judea with a strong nationalistic sense.
      The word is used in Acts 9:22 and John 11:8 referring to men of the unsaved nation. This is where the semantic problem starts. Jew can mean someone from Judea, which would include rebellious Pharisees, or it is also frequently pictured as God’s special people. That 2nd use is NOT equivalent to the 1st use. The same word is used in 2 diff ways (homonym). God’s people obey, thus it rules out the apostate rabbinic Pharisaic types.
      Rom 2:28 Paul plays a PUN game with this homonym. Rev 3:9 is an excellent example of this pun. These were ethnic/national Jews but they opposed the gospel, so Jesus calls them fake-jews. Yes, I am a Jew, a son of Jacob adopted into the tribes.

    • Jay Altieri

      The Jew-Israelite question brings up a very old post, that I was going to let slip, but I see here the relevance. Scroll way up for review to #157. No we are not part of Dry Bones. I believe that you are mixing your metaphors from Eze 37 +Rom 11. Olive tree is portrayed as body of God’s people. Some are grafted in and become Israelites, others are cut off to die. The body of Christ is never displayed as dead rattling bones. True Israel (God followers) are full of life+spirit. In Rom 11 unbelieving Jews are branches “cut off” from the olive tree. This is reminiscent of many sins in the Law for which a person was “cut off” from his people (Ex12:19; Lev 17:4, etc).

      The Heb word for cut off is karet ; it means death. There were numerous sins in Torah eg: idol worshiping, adultery, eating blood, copying temple incense recipe, and big bunch other sins. They all carried the death penalty. You don’t cut someone off and they still live elsewhere in exile or in separation. This is capital punishment and justly so, for the wages of sin is death. So in NT when Paul uses cut off language in Rom 11:22, I think it means death for those branches. Life is only available in Jesus. Pruned wood is destroyed in the fire (Mat 3:10).

      This is where Eze37 starts. The 2 houses of Judah and Isr (Eze 37:16-17) will return, those cut off dead branches, and receive life. So no, we are not part of the dry bones+ unsaved Isr is not part of Rom 11 olive tree (yet).

    • Jay Altieri

      308-Dan 12:2 Are believing gentiles written in the book? Of course they are. Thus Daniel’s people are God’s people. Not genetic Israelites but true Israelites.

      It does not say that some of YOUR people wake up to everlasting contempt. Genitive case (possessive finial kaf) is not used.
      A multitude awakes from the dust, this multitude includes Daniel’s people and a bunch of others too. Those written in the Book of Life (Daniel’s people+Michael’s people) receive eternal life with a glorified body. Many others awake [1000yrs later at GWTJ] for everlasting contempt. This fits perfectly within my paradigm. “Contemp” is better translated “abhorance.” The word is only used 1other x in Bible.
      Isa 66:24 notice the wicked are loathsome-abhored-contemptable to all MANKIND. Not to God, but to people.

      Mankind retaining a memory of the failed rebellion is again seen in Rev 14:11 does not say that sinners burn forever, it says that the smoke (memory?) of their torment is forever. I think some symbolism is involved. It means that the righteous will remember to never again rebel against God. The individual people involved in that rebellion will be totally forgotten. Their name will not exist, for it was blotted out of existence like Haman’s name at Purim. So The everlasting contempt is in the mind of the righteous.

      God’s wrath will pass. He will mete out justice and be satisfied. God will not go through eternity with a chip on His shoulder or His panties in a wad. As if He were still brooding over those unsaved rebels. Instead, I believe that His wrath will be satiated by blood, the blood of the wicked. Then His wrath will pass: Ps 30:5; Isa 54:7-8; Ps 78:38; Isa 12:1; Hos 11:9; 14:4; Mic 7:18

    • patrick


      bananas on wed: I think Saul’s oath was binding, & why Jon died. J was a righteous man, but this is a minor point. Your comments on Paul’s conversation w/ Ananias (HP) were interesting, but I see no sarcasm here. Paul would have been “out of touch” w/ the priesthood for a while. Priests rotated the HP position, so it may not have been apparent to Paul to whom he was shouting. I find it odd, though, that the HP would not be known on sight by dress, seat, etc.. Paul had no more angry words for him, & was out of line per the law. He was penalized for not knowing, but accepted correction. I don’t believe Annas=Ananias. Do you?

      all un-martyred believers res…into GTrib: That’s what I believe Scriptures teach. This is the core fundmntl diff I have w/ church doct. Nowhere is, “believers die & go to heaven” stated in Scripture. There are passages that may seem to indicate this, if 1 does not pay attention, but all such passages ALWAYS use special terms. Isn’t it odd regarding the lack of directness about a topic of such fundamental import (& comfort) to the church? It should be clearly stated several times, if true. There are other passages that make this doct impossible, but scholars(!) have given alternate interps to such. Church doct teaches salvation = eternal life (EL). Whereas I have no doubt that salvn can certainly LEAD to EL, I believe salvn = life from the dead. Huge difference. Yeshua came to redeem man from a certain & otherwise inescapable death. His res is the work. In so doing, He will take us all right back to Adam’s origl test that he failed. He takes us thru trib, not around. You can’t see my “born again” because you “die & go to heaven.” My “born again” (in its most literal sense) comes near the end of the age (harvest), when we will rise & fulfill the lion’s share of our ministry! No longer disciples (as today), but apostles. As I’ve said, ‘bring on your “die & go to heaven” verses.’

    • patrick


      Jaywalking…There are no fake excuses at the GWTJ, God knows what you knew: Why did God give law? We needed no tutor, & God & I both know I broke His Creation laws – whatever those are! That vs doesn’t apply. Rom.1:18-21 states the context (who & why they will experience God’s wrath). But you said it – God DOES excuse for valid ignorance (about His law). “Where THERE IS NO law, THERE IS NO condemnation.” It’s not to say the Father will dismiss sinful acts committed in ig, but to say that God won’t allow the excuse of me saying that I was ig about WHAT HIS LAW SAID. Sin entered the world ONLY thru Adam breaking the 1 law, not some random “Creation law” oopsy. That much is clear. &, “sin is not imputed when THERE IS NO law.” What are you going to do w/ that? I get a free pass? When Paul states, ‘Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned ACCORDING TO THE LIKENESS of the transgression of Adam …,’ what is his meaning? That He punished anteDs anyway, because they all knew they were sinning? I don’t think so. Rom.5:18 can’t stand up w/out 1st being prefaced by Rom.5:14, to put it in context. “Nevertheless …” Something funny was going on pre-Mabool. & law #2 (to ALL men) came just after. Coincidence?

      you support a 2nd chance for all who have not had…opportunity w/ the specific gospel criteria: If they hadn’t received a law from God (anteDs), God wouldn’t have been able to condemn them. If some haven’t heard the gospel, then they haven’t yet rejected Him. If salvation is life from the dead, & not dying & going to heaven, then, like Lazarus, who got a 2nd chance, evil men will die again by rejecting Him. Laz wasn’t raised because Yeshua had already died – He was raised as a sign. Thankless lepers were cleansed. Big deal? You raise them up before a GWT; I raise them up so all will witness the clear choices made. Lot of Adams, ready to fall again. You will see it and marvel.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, You admit to a belief in an immortal soul. You do realize that phrase is never found in Scripture? I’m still puzzled with your ideas, as I suppose you are with mine, let me try to get your theory straight:
      Humans are B-S-S. When we die, the spirit which is always good, returns to heaven (contra John 3:13), except Bible speaks of prideful spirits but they are still good anyway. Disembodied +disensouled spirit has limited emotion and function(apriori, logically confused with our agreed upon def of soul). Dead body has zero emotion and function (Agreed). Soul=mind (Agreed). Soul is in Sheol without spirit or body. Soul has no consciousness for most of the time, although mind is never dead, it is in a coma. Except at odd times they wake up and talk (contra Job 14:14). Soul has no body to communicate and no spirit for communion, How do they talk? Neph +Abbadon are also in Sheol, but since they are not human they are awake all the time.
      AnteD’s are the exception to everything. Their spirit did not go to God (Ecc 12:7), instead it went with its soul to Sheol, so Jesus could preach to them while he himself was dead, which is an exception to the exception.
      Resurrection of Jesus did not effectually change anything, same system applies before Easter as afterwards.
      Being a believer does not effectually change anything, unless you are literally martyred. Even those who die in Christ (Contra John 11:25-26) will die again at GTrib.
      How did I do? Do you notice any anomalies in this teaching?

      292 Gal 4:17 I think means possibility of losing salvation is real, but not easy, I know some Xp’s that think every time we mess up we lose salvation. They’re always going down front to get re-saved. That’s silly. But others, believe in eternal security, that no matter what you do-you can’t lose it. That too is biblically incorrect. There is a ditch on both sides of the road. I’ve written on this somewhere and will look for a link, if interested.

    • Jay Altieri

      283/312- un murdered Christians in heaven. We talked about this a long time ago. I think thief on cross is an example of unmrdered belivr in heaven. Paradise=3rd hvn per 2 Cor 12:2,4. Rev 2:7 Jesus is the tree of life (not magical fruit). Jesus went to the Father in hvn. Thus, Paradise =hvn. Note that I do not think Jesus or thief went to paradise/heaven that same day. They died and went to grave in unconsciousness only that day. But later, after Res together they entered heaven.

      Also I think 1 Thes 4:14 “those who have fallen asleep in Jesus” return WITH Him displays that all spirits ofsaints are in heaven not just martyrs. Thessalonians had been itchy for the Parousia, people had died (yes many were martyred, but surly some of them had plain died natural deaths). Paul tells them this for comfort.

      Then of course, there are the std vss used by Evangelicals to support immediate translation of a Christian’s consciousness (soul) into heaven. I’m sure you’ve already considered these, we’ve probably already mentioned them: Phil 1:23-24; 2Cor 5:6-9; John 11:25; John 14:19; 2Cor 13:4; 1Thes 4:17 EVER be with Lord; 1Thes 5:2; Tim 2:11; Rom 14:9 (being Lord involves consciousness). If you want I will exegete each of these for you.
      Possibly the strongest is 1Thes 5:10-Even if we’re sleeping (dead) you are living with Jesus (in Spirit). Notice that this was addressed to greater Thessalonika. It was meant to be a circular letter. Churches copied it and sent mss down the path to other churches. Another words is is for ALL believers, not just murdered.

      Baal cycle Ugarit tablets are at Claremont CA. They were excavated in 1929 by Schaeffer.
      Bill Schniedewind, UCLA, an old college friend of mine has written on this. Google it.

    • Jay Altieri

      However, having said that all true believers after Calvary Res “go to heaven when they die” (where Jesus currently resides), you are correct that this is not emphatically point blank stated. As such soul sleep for Christians is not a terrible doctrine. There are much more important topics to debate. If you die today and go to heaven for a few decades or even if Jesus tarries for 1000yrs, that is a drop in the bucket compared to the final state of eternity. The Big Enchilada is the resurrection for eternal life. We will live forever in a glorified body upon a restored earth. This is where I am concerned with your martyred in the GT idea.
      Christians get resurrected to die again? So the resurrection is not a glorified body immune from death per 1Cor15?
      We get another mortal body for a 2nd chance?
      Then after we are martyred in the GT, we get resurrected again? This time permanently.
      I find no biblical support for a temp resurrection during the GT.

      The way I see it: at the Parousia (post GT) Jesus appears, comes, is made manifest for all to see. He comes with great pomp and glory, the parade of a king. Dead bodies of Xp erupt from the grave to meet their own spirit+soul who are returning with Jesus. B-S-S merge to form a holistic person with Glorified Body (GB). Those who are still alive (currently with B-S-S)are transformed into a GB of the resurrection.

      These GBs will be like Jesus’ resurrected body (Phil3:21; 1John 3:2; Rom 8:29). We know that Jesus’ resurrected body is immune to death Rom 6:9. He cannot die, thus if we are to become LIKE Jesus at the resurrection, we will be immune to death.
      This is the whole point of the resurrection.
      So, I have problems with your idea of resurrection for the purpose of re-dying during GT.

    • patrick


      Dan 12:2…A multitude awakes from the dust, this multitude includes Dan’s people & a bunch of others too: I agree, but the passage itself is particular to Dan’s hereditary people. Just because it is exclusive to Dan’s kin doesn’t mean there will be no others included in receiving everlasting life/condemnation. Interesting you place the conventional 1k yrs between the res of the righteous & the wicked here. I place them as simultaneous. The wicked inside of Israel & the church must be judged 1st. Correct? Judgment begins at the house of the Lord. The wicked pretenders (both hereditary Israelites & those w/in the Church) will be cast alive into the LoF toward the end of Messiah’s 2nd coming (post-Armageddon), because both will have defected from the flock, & be wearing the mark of the beast. These are taken, along w/ anyone else bearing the mark & thrown in alive. The post-millenial kingdom GWTJ (Rev.20) involves mortals (the nations) that entered into the mil. kingdom, but either died for their wickedness, or were swayed into siding w/ Gog, plus all those (non-res’ed) wicked souls that rejected God during the (current) age of grace. As such, these are judged by works (i.e., “books”). The BoL only seems to be opened as confirmation that none of the names were ever entered.

      Mankind retaining a memory of the failed rebellion is again seen in Rev 14:11: “And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST and his image, AND whoever RECEIVES the mark of his name.” Note the present tenses involved, not past.

      Interesting that you believe the wicked will not suffer forever & ever, but those who haven’t heard the gospel won’t get a second chance, whereas I maintain the wicked will suffer forever, & God will give those who haven’t heard the true gospel a second chance. Which interp provides more grace to the righteous, & more wrath to the wicked?

    • Jay Altieri

      Saul’s foolish vow+Paul’s smart talk. Even if Saul is binding and Paul is wrong, these are cases of breaking an existing law out of ignorance. The whole AnteD topic (Bananas on Wed) is about retroactive laws. ie: creating laws after the behavior has been performed.
      Noah+Moses made laws AFTER AnteD’s were already dead. Jesus bringing law to AnteDs is a retroactive judgment which is not fair. Saul+Paul are not relevant.

      Jesus preaching MLaw to men is unnecessary. Rom 5:18 adam’s sin results in condemnation already. But that condemn is different for @person. This is why I don’t think 2nd chance is needed. God is gracious +some of them may be saved anyway. Some have a stiffneck others relatively humble. God knows+will judge justly. Agreed that God overlooks many sins + in the end, I think a few aborigines and other unevangelized will be saved +achieve the Res. Script says that some (a remnant) from EVERY tongue, every nation will be saved (Rev 5:9; Rev 7:9). This includes AnteDs. Thus even if their nation never heard the gospel (eg:anteDs, pre-contact Inca, pre-Capt Cook Polynesians), the humble will be saved. God judges based on the attitude of the heart, not the memory banks of the brain. He doesn’t need to resurrect them for a second chance, because he already knows what their heart is. Graciously a remnant will be saved. Heb 9:27 ONCE to die. No 2nd chance. No 2nd martyrdom in GT.

      297 will HS be around LoF until the wicked have paid their sin debts, & then depart from them? Consider Rev 14:10 Jesus is there. HS is the Spirit of Jesus (Acts 16:7; Phil 1:19). “Abide” however is not the correct word. But yes, He will be in town till the party’s over. Jesus will not enjoy seeing His enemies suffer. He is not a sadist, vindictive, punitive, nor spiteful. Justice will be served. Capital punishment with equally balanced reciprocity will be achieved. Then their flame will go out (Prov 24:20) and eternity will ENTIRELY be glorifying to God

    • Jay Altieri

      317 more grace and more wrath? God’s grace is abounding (2Cor 9:8). It overflows our limited capacity to comprehend (1Tim 1:14). Another words His grace is soooo huge, we can’t understand it. His grace is only limited by Himself, +He is infinite-has no limits. Thus His grace is limitless+infinite. Grace is a personality trait of YHWH, it is His character. Thus grace is eternal, as is agape. Afterall, grace is the manifestation of agape. They are closely related. Love never ceases (1Cor 13:8), so grace never ceases. I am hesitant to debate any theory that stretches my mind as to the boundless magnitude of God’s grace.

      However, I don’t think your theory of 2nd chance is more grace. It is another test, which you yourself say many will fail. Tests come with condemnation, thus it is not grace.

      MORE wrath is not just, fair, level balanced, honest scales (Prov 16:11). God is not looking for more wrath. He is looking for reciprocal equivalency. Wrath is not a character trait of God’s nature (see #311 for wrath ceasing), so wrath is not eternal and infinite. The finite measure of wrath must be balanced equal +opposite to the crime. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth will be the standard. The Eye+Tooth command from Lev 24:20 is about balance of reciprocity. This is Newton’s 3rd Law of Physics. It is true for motion within the universe, as it is also true of justice for sin.

      So, dear Patrick, I dispute both of your charges. You don’t have more grace, you have another test. You definitely do have MORE wrath, but that is precisely why the theory is unbiblical.

      PS- How do you handle reciprocity within your paradigm? Do you admit that equivalency is a biblical standard? (some traditionalists deny it all together). Be blest and may God’s grace overflow within you life.

    • Jay Altieri

      300 it sounds as if you are proposing a dual consciousness. The spirit is awake in heaven and the soul in sheol is sleeping but not dead, sometimes stirred. Do the 2 separate consciousnesses ever conflict? It sounds schizophrenic. How can they both be the seat of thoughts? Do you propose that bodies have consciousness in and of themselves?

      The way that I see it: soul is the exclusive seat of thoughts/emotion/consciousness. So anytime you read about thoughts/emotion, it a priori must be referencing soul. Body +spirit are vessels that contain soul. Body +spirit are analogous. Body is physical, spirit is immaterial (of Gary’s 2nd circle)

      If martyrs are in heaven with soul+spirit, were OT martyrs in heaven too? Abel? Isaiah (traditionally sawn in half)? Zechariah from Lk 11:51? Were OT martyrs immediately in heaven, beating Jesus to the punch? Before answering that, pls review my Enoch+Elijah paper.

      301-Yes, I consider locusts in the Pit as Ds. We are never told what FA or D actually look like. Who knows? Some weird looking cherub and seraph have animal traits. Obviously locusts are not literal insect. Those are harmless. These are Ds.
      2Pet2:4 KEPT UNTIL the judgment is misleading. All it says is that they are ultimately not going to go scotfree. They WILL be judged. It does not say that they must sit in prison entire time till then. Compare Acts 25:21 same word Paul is KEPT for hearing of Sebastos, (ESV note “in custody” not in text), but he still makes some side detours enroute (Crete, Malta, etc). Thus FA in 2Pet2:4 are eligible for a romp. Furthermore note that to be KEPT doesnot always indicate a prisoner. Saints are KEPT by God (1Thes 5:23 ), yet we not not bound in a jail. Believers KEEP the Word of God’s law (1John 2:3), yet the Word is not hostage. I like KJV translation as “reserved ” better than the modern translations.Idea that FAs in 2Pet 2:4 KEPT for judgment, requiring immobility isnt founded by word study in Greek.

    • F Patricia McEachrane-Gross

      When Adam was created, he became a living soul (being); when Adam died and the breath given to him by God left his body, he became a dead soul (being).
      This is hardly understood, even among Christians. Great confusion exists because most of the world has accepted the lie of the Serpent to Eve when he said “You surely will not die!” even though God clearly expressed otherwise to Eve and to later generations (examples: Ezekiel 18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.” Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”)
      Jesus must have had a hurting heart as He was telling the story of the rich man and Lazarus, as He tried to show, by using the ridiculous, how far the “teachers in Israel” had strayed from the truth about God .
      Satan has perpetuated that lie about the immortal soul since the Garden of Eden and many have been detrimentally influenced by it, whether Jew or Gentile, believer or unbeliever. He is ramping up the influence of the lie with the increasingly significant impact of New Age and spiritualistic ideas on Christianity.
      We no longer interpret the meaning of the word “soul” according to the context in which it is used. It’s incredible to read discussions about where “souls” might be after death but I shouldn’t be amazed because it’s par for the course to go to funerals and hear about people who have gone straight to heaven (believers or unbelievers). Ironically, no one seems to have gone straight to hell at a funeral, although one would assume, according to common non-biblical belief, the wicked also receive their reward at death – eternal lives, writhing in agony.
      Whatever happened to God’s clear Word? Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” When our Savior hung on the cruel cross, did He not demonstrate the agony the unbeliever will feel when separated from God at the final judgment? Did He not accept on our behalf,the wages of sin in His sinless body? If the wage of sin is eternal burning in hell, why did Jesus not experience that at the cross?
      But for those who accept the enemy’s great lie, “You surely will not die,” they have to accept the immortality of the soul in heaven or in hell. They dare not accept the beautiful truths of God’s Word:
      “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” Romans 6.
      50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 15
      I am thankful for this Visual of my Savior giving me the gift of immortality at His Second Coming – it’s one of the most beautiful descriptions in the Bible and one of the strongest weapons of defense against the strong delusions that are about to overtake this world – “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:24. MARANATHA!

    • Henry Vongxay

      I have to define first the definition of saved as written in the Bible.

      (Matthew 1:21)
      “She [Mary] will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

      Jesus recognizes that we are born into slavery. Man is only concerned about eternal life, but forget to address the underlying problem, which is sin. Heaven is something that we walk into when we walk with Christ. If we walk with sin we walk to eternal fire. Sin is the main issue of humanity, bottom line. Jesus came to deal with it.

      In todays culture, we have connected having eternal life with the term “saved,” but it is referring to saved from slavery, or the hold of satan.

      (John 5:4)
      “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin”

      This is the very important concept that is not understood. When we die, we are free from the bondages of sin. In other words, we are no longer slaves to sin when our mortal bodies die. We do not have to wait until our mortal bodies die to be set free from sin. God/Jesus provided a means to be saved (set free from slavery) through baptism.

      (Romans 6:3-7)
      “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the father, we too may live a new life [meaning on earth and heaven]. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like him. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin – because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.”

      Jesus also tells us,

      (John 8:36)
      “So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” [From the bondages of sin]

      For those that do not think that baptism has any significance, you are wrong. It is the response and action we take to the gospel we heard.

      (Acts 2:38)
      Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”

      (Mark 16:16)
      “Whoever beleives and is baptized will be saved [from sin], but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

      Baptism is not a work, so the concept of salvation though faith by grace still holds. We were told to repent and be baptized. Repentance and baptism is a response to the gospel. If you categorize baptism as a work, then you are saying that repentence is also a work and saying that we do not have to do anything.

      With that said, there is no good arguement for the non-existance of Paradise or Abraham’s Bosom.

      In the heart of earth, Hades/Paradise or Abraham’s bosom, there is great chasm. Lazarus and Abe would not be about to communicate if Abe was in heaven.

      Also, one the cross, Jesus said,

      (Luke 23:43)
      “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

      Guess what, that day, Jesus did not go to heaven. He did not ascend for another 3+40 days. Abraham’s Bosom is Paradise, not heaven. When Jesus went to defeat Satan, he went to Hades/Abraham’s Bosom and took all from Abraham’s Bosom.

      (Ephesians 4:7-10)
      “That is why it says:
      ‘When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.’
      (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than add the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

      I pray that this clears up things.

    • Jenna

      Wrong, wrong, wrong. We clearly know that nobody goes to heaven. We find clearly that the one one to do so was the one who descended from heaven (John 3:13). All the dead will be gathered from the dust, some to eternal life in Yahshua, some to perish (Daniel 12:2; John 5:29). Y’all need to read what’s right there in your Bibles (and not some ol’ Not Inspired Version–the NIV) and not just parrot back what someone has told you. You’re understanding of Roman Churchianity is complete–and completely wrong.

      • Jerry Parks

        Jenna, what do you do with the statement by Paul: “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? 2Cor 5:8

      • Woodie Williams

        John 3:13 was spoken by Jesus before His resurrection. 1 Cor. 15:20, Col. 1:18, Rev. 1:5, speak of Jesus being the first born from the dead. The reason is that He (Jesus) might come to have first place in everything.

    • Woodie Williams

      Jenna, also look at John 14:3…in which Jesus says He is preparing a place, will return, that where I am you may be also. If that place isn’t heaven (and it is) then that’s ok because I’ll be with Jesus.


      The Myth of “Abraham’s Bosom” In my opinion, A myth stipulates a tale or explaining some natural or social phenomenon. First, the story is never called a parable. Many other of Jesus’ stories are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed (Luke 8:4); the prosperous farmer (Luke 12:16); the barren fig tree (Luke 13:6); and the wedding feast (Luke 14:7). Second, the story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Why did Jesus raise the dead in Christ when they would have been in heaven? 1 Thessalonians

      • C Michael Patton

        Did you read the post? Thanks for commenting. Reference Craig Blomberg’s monumental book on parables. It is very helpful in this regard. If I was to defend the idea that this was real, I would not go the direction you may. I would talk about the view of Abraham’e Bosom during second temple Judaism. It would not define this as a true story, necessarily, but it would give it a chance.

        Again, I appreciate the engagement.

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