I sat down with a young lady not too long ago and had a conversation. This was a conversation about faith—her faith. Better put, this was a conversation about a faith that once was and is no more. She was a very interesting and bright lady—inquisitive, well-read, and very suspicious. She began by telling me that she had been a Christian, but had since left the faith. Christ was once a part of her confession. However, after a long voyage of not finding sufficient answers for her doubts, she came to the conclusion that she believes she has had no choice but to follow her own integrity and renounce Christ all together. That said, when I asked her to share with me what her particular problems were, she became very emotional. It was just as if I represented Christianity, and she was ready to take all of it out on me.
Ignorance. Pity. Shame. These are all word descriptions she associated with Christianity. However, through these superficial word descriptions, it was evident that the best root word to describe her feelings was “betrayal”. She had been betrayed by the Church, because they duped her into a belief not unlike that of the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. When she discovered this “betrayal,” no one could provide a valid answer or excuse. So she left. She is now an unbeliever—a soon-to-be evangelistic unbeliever no doubt. I discussed the issue with her for quite a while. However, she seemed to have come to the point in this process that she was no longer open to counsel, no matter what I said.
As many of you know, a part of my ministry is dealing with people who doubt their faith just like this young lady. I possess well over a dozen books containing a plethora of autobiographical sketches of people who once proclaimed to be Christians. Yet, these same individuals are now professing evangelistic atheism, agnosticism, or skepticism. They are “evangelistic” in that their avowed goal is to convert, or rather “unconvert”, others to their world view system of unbelief. I have received e-mails, phone calls, and personal visits from numerous people who have either already, or are on the verge of leaving the Christian faith. On a positive note, may I say that many of those individuals have been restored to a faith in Christ.
Leaving Christianity is one of the most serious issues facing the Church today. Right under our noses, an epidemic is confronting Christianity— the “disease” of unbelief spreading among our very own. The ironic fact is that there is a great assembly of people in our churches who are somewhere in the process of leaving. No, I am not talking about them leaving one denomination, only to join another Christian group. I am not talking about abandoning some institutionalized notion of Christianity. I am not even talking about the explicit renunciation of their expressed beliefs. I am talking about those who are leaving Christ. (And this is coming from a Calvinist who does not believe that those who are truly elect will ever leave).
Over 31 million Americans are saying “check please” to the church, and are off to find answers elsewhere. Jeff Schadt, coordinator of Youth Transition Network, says thousands of youth fall away from the church when transitioning from high school to college. He and other youth leaders estimate that 65 to 94 percent of high school students stop attending church after graduating. From my studies and experience I find that leaving the church is, on many occasions, the first visible step in one’s pilgrimage away from Christ.
There are so many complicated reasons why people “leave Christ” and I don’t propose to do justice to them here. However, I do want to discuss the observations I have made of the steps that people take in leaving Christianity.
Step One: Doubt
This is the case when a person begins to examine his or her faith more critically by asking questions, expressing concerns, and becoming transparent with their doubt. One normally finds this step coming from teenagers, or those in the process of transitioning from adolescence to their teen years. However, this step frequently applies to individuals included in demographics that reach much farther out than the teen years. This step of doubt is not wholesale, but expresses an inner longing to have questions answered and the intellect satisfied, at least to some degree. Normally, a person experiencing this step will seek out mentors in the faith, someone he respects who will listen to his “doubt.”
While there are several diverse reasons that are responsible for the initiation of this doubt, three primary causes stand out:
Maturation: Much of the time, the cause is purely reflective of one’s age progression, a phase in life we like to call “simple maturation.” As people grow older, they begin to ask more serious questions about their beliefs (and their parents’ beliefs as well). During this stage of life, intellectual maturation, or at least what we perceive to be such, becomes a stronger motivator in our life. We begin to grow in our critical thinking, and discernment skills grow stronger.
Intellectual challenges: Often, the doubt comes from intellectual challenges in the form of questions. “Is the Bible truly reliable?” “Does science demonstrate that there is no proof of God?” “Why do I even need to believe in God?”
Experiential challenges: These types of challenges come from God’s actions (or lack thereof) in our lives. This is exemplified through prayers that don’t get answered, the apparent silence of God in a person’s experience, or a tragedy from which the doubter or someone else was not rescued. These experiential challenges can be catalysts which ignite intellectual challenges.
Any one of these (or all three together) can fire the starting gun on the voyage away from Christianity.
Step Two: Discouragement
This follows doubt, as a person becomes frustrated because he is not finding the answers to his questions. The answers (or lack thereof) cause his discouragement. He becomes further discouraged because he has little or no hope that acceptable answers to his questions will ever be found. His church tells him that merely raising said questions is “unchristian.” A Sunday school teacher may offer an ambivalent response such as, “I don’t know. You just have to believe.” Another might simply say, “That’s a good question, I have never thought of that before. . .” and then proceed on their own way, their own leap-of-faith journey, totally oblivious, just as if the question had never been asked.
These experiences cause obvious and great discouragement in the life of the beginning doubter, who sees his questions and concerns as legitimate, and they deserve to be answered. “Are others scared of these questions? If so, why?” are the doubter’s thoughts.
Step Three: Disillusionment
It is at this step that disillusionment sets in the mind of the doubter. He becomes disillusioned with Christianity in general and proceeds to engage in more serious doubt. He feels genuinely betrayed by those he had trusted most when he first believed. He becomes skeptical not only of what is, in his mind, an unwarranted story about Christ and the Bible, but also of the very people who encouraged and influenced him to believe such an untrustworthy myth. He is further disillusioned that the faith which he had been persuaded to believe was so saturated with naivete that not even his most trusted mentors could (or would) answer basic, elementary questions about the Bible, history, or faith. In his thinking, a person’s “legitimate” intellect was discarded out of hand, supplanted by the church becoming an “illegitimate” contender for the minds of gullible believers. Once the mind of the “Disillusioned Doubter” has been lost, the turn has been made. He may still be emotionally rooting for his former faith, but this will soon pass as his “intellect” talks him out of his emotional conviction. What a very sad place this is for the doubting “leaver,” as he realizes for the first time that he is truly leaving Christ. It is at this point that he will likely go through an indefinite period of depression, despondency, and indecisiveness.
Step Four: Apathy
At this stage in his journey away from the Christian faith, the disillusioned “former Christian” becomes apathetic to finding answers, as he is convinced that the answers don’t exist. He is treading headlong down the path of skepticism, agnosticism, or all-out atheism, but he doesn’t have the courage to admit it to himself or others. An individual in this stage frequently lives as a “closet unbeliever.” He is convinced that it is not worth the risk to come clean about his departure from the faith. He desires an uneventful and peaceful existence in his state of unbelief, without creating any controversy. This may help him to cope with the depression that his loss of faith has brought about. If he isn’t honest with himself or others about it, he won’t have to deal with it. Surely, he may continue to hand out bulletins at church, sing in the choir, show up to socials, take a mission trip here and there, and even teach a Sunday School class, but he no longer believes. He is content, for now, to stay in the closet.
However, not everyone stays in the apathy stage.
Step Five: Departure
(This is where I met the young lady I introduced to you at the beginning of this post. In actuality, she was somewhere in between apathy and departure.) At this stage in the process, the fact that one has left the faith has become real to him, and he is ready and willing to announce the fact to the world. Because of his sense of betrayal, he feels as if it is his duty to become an “evangelist of unbelief.” His goal and mission now becomes to “unconvert” the converted.
This is the stage where many former Christians, such as Bart Erhman, reside. In my opinion, Dr. Erhman is full of zeal due to his sense of betrayal. Either he feels that he has to legitimize his departure by taking with him as many as he can, or he is truly attempting to help people quit living a lie out of true concern. Either way, his emotional commitment to Christianity is gone and reversed. He is now an evangelist of unbelief.
“I don’t really even care what you have to say to me,” she told me that day. “I just don’t believe anymore and there is nothing anyone can do about it.” As I thought about this young lady, one thing kept coming to mind: How was she a part of the church for so long without the church ever engaging her on these issues? You see, the issues she confronted were numerous, but foundational. She doubted the resurrection of Christ; the inspiration, inerrancy, canon of Scripture; and the historicity of the Christian faith in general. If the church had legitimized her questions during the doubting phase and truly engaged her on an intellectual front, I can’t help but think things might have been different. But once one reaches the apathy stage, that seems to be that point of no return.
Folks, we have a lot in our job description. But rooting people theologically by presenting the intellectual viability of the Evangelical faith must be at the top of the priority list and it must come early. While I understand this is not all there is to the Christian faith, it is an absolutely vital part of discipleship and foundational to everything else.
Everyone will go through the doubt phase. Everyone should ask questions about their faith. If you have not asked the “How do you know?” questions about the message of the Gospel, this is not “a good thing.” We should be challenged to think through these questions early in our faith walk. (Taking my own advice, I am reading this to my 14-year-old daughter right now. Why? She needs to hear it.) The Church needs to rethink its educational programs. Expositional preaching, while very important, is not enough. Did you hear me? Expositional preaching is not enough. It is not the correct venue for the discipleship that is vital for us to prevent and overcome this epidemic. We should not fool ourselves into thinking that it does.
The church has been on an intellectual diet for the last century and we are suffering from theological atrophy. What else do you expect when we have replaced theological discipleship, instead prioritizing entertainment, numbers, and fast-food Christianity that can produce nothing more than a veneer of faith seasoned for departure?
The solution: We must reform our educational programs in the church. We must lay theological foundations through critical thinking. We must understand that the “Great Commission” is to make disciples, not simply converts. And most importantly, we must pray that God will grant a revival of the mind and the spirit, knowing that without the power of the Holy Spirit, no amount of intellectual persuasion can change an antagonistic heart.
Absent these solutions, the epidemic of leaving Christ will only worsen. We will (if we don’t already) have more evangelists of unbelief than we do the Gospel.
355 replies to "Leaving (Christ)ianity"
MBaker,
Your comment above to Greg (Tiribulus) is particularly ungracious and unloving.
TUAD,
You might think so but just ask Carrie. Greg’s comments on another thread were so arrogant that she had to call him down too, and quit listening too. Hey, I try to be fair on both sides but he has gotten to be too much. Notice he only comes against the women here, not the guys. I notice there are very few women on this site anymore. I wonder why!
Thank you M Baker for all of your comments.
Cerbaz,
Thank you, my dear. I truly hope you will not hold this poor showing on this blog against us as Christians. I can only pray that you will come to know Christ is so much better than we are. I used to be where you are now, and I can’t honestly tell you what changed that. Wish i could! But whatever has on influenced you on this blog for good or for ill, just know I am only concerned with you! if you want Michael can give you my e-mail, if you want to continue our discussion., although I honestly can’t tell you I have all the right answers either. But whatever you decide I will still continue to pray for you to find them.
God bless, my dear,
Margaret
@mbaker: I think myself, as Scripture indicates that the “glory” of God has surely departed from much of the historical church of God, “Ichoabod” (1 Sam. 4:21 / 2 Tim. 2:19- into chapter 3 and 4: 1-4). As Paul wrote in his sort of last will & testament in 2 Tim. 2: 19-21, etc., “a/the Great House” [of God], has become a place of “honour” and to “dishonour”. And the faithful, who name the name of Christ, must thoroughly purge themselves from evil! Of course this is a very “spiritual” battle! But surely “Satan”, the “devil”, is in the sanctuary! (2: 26)
Amen, “preach” it Brother Greg (Tiribulus)! 😉 I am convinced that seeking to just “reason” people into the faith, is one of our “problematic” aspects in the West. “Reason” i.e. biblical/theological truth & argument, yes, in sound thought or judgment and good sense! But inferences, proof and just mental conclusions, i.e. facts alone…just don’t make it! It simply must be the real “spirit and truth”! And again here GOD is the Sovereign & providential of His own message-Gospel (kerygma). And were not talking just “theological” ideas here, but the doctrine and revelation of God In Christ! And HE leads us btw into the doctrine/teaching and fellowship (Koinonia) of God Triune, Eph. 2: 18!
Btw, myself, I think our friend “Cerbaz” has not had or seen solid Reformational and Reformed doctrine and teaching! Here are the great top-tier Reformers: Luther, Zwingli, Bullinger, Calvin, etc. Not to mention some of the fine Reformational and Reformed Creeds! I know in today’s Christian scene, these guys get read little.. or any with many Christians! And this is just very sad to say the least! So, in love, Christian love.. and the desire for “truth”, I would lay down this challenge!
And btw, there is a newer and simply grand book and bio on John Calvin out, by Bruce Gordon: ‘Calvin’ (Yale University Press, 2009 / Paperback, 2011). I have the hardback (and a few paperbacks… I give to choice students). A must read for the serious historical and theological student! (And we are always really “students” in the school of Christ!)…And let us not diminish true theological study, as some here have said; the Holy Scripture itself always challenges us to read & study, note what Paul says in 2 Tim. 4: 13, he was himself a student and reader!
@Greg: I am sure Michael & his Blog has my e-mail, you can get it from him. Write me as you are lead. 🙂
Robert is this what you believe?
Unconditional Election
God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before fore the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
@Margaret: Yes, I am a certain Augustinian and Calvinist (perhaps more of a neo-Calvinist), I would prefer to call Unconditional Election as God’s Divine Initiative.
Greg, and Fr. Robert
This is a different Margaret who commented above. My name is the same but we are not the same people.
Sorry Margaret Baker I hope this was not a problem. Irresistibly grace impugns the goodness of God. If God calls and draws sinners irresistibly to himself so that they escape hell simply because he overwhelms thems and regenerates them without any act of free will on their part, then a good God would do that for everyone! Only a moral monster would refuse to save persons when salvation is absolutely unconditional and solely an act of God that does not depend on free will.
Yes I know who this “Margaret” is to some degree, she is a conservative Roman Catholic female and a serious Catholic-Christian woman of God! God Bless her!
Oh my dear Margaret, this is NOT the doctrine of GOD’s Divine Initiative! You have misunderstood the doctrine and teaching of God here! No doubt from poor Catholic understanding, I am sorry to say!
Classical Arminian theology, sus as that of John Wesley affirms the total depravity of human beings and their utter helplessness even to exercise a good will toward God apart from God’s supernatural, assisting grace. It attributes the sinner’s ability to respond to the gospel with repentance and faith to prevenient grace-the illuminating, convicting, calling, and enabling power of the Holy Spirit working on the sinner’s soul and making them free to choose saving grace or reject it. This is the drowings of God mentioned by Jesus in the gospel of John. God does not draw irresistibly but persuasively, leaving human persons able to say no.
Margaret,
Welcome to P and P. Hearing that name today is so unusual. No problem, because I am not a Calvinist or an Arminian. I can see points on both sides.
So don’t let anyone here intimidate you into thinking you must adhere to either one in order to be biblical.
God bless.
In the true Doctrines of Grace, the will of the believer-sinner is “regenerated” and somewhat “renewed”, and always in submission the Christian is somewhat able to respond in grace to obedience. But, he/she can never have free-will, as a sinner alone, but has again by God’s grace responsible will before God. Of course the Christian has a New Man or Nature in the New Birth, but even here he is always a sinner-saint (in this life).
Wow lots of typos hope I do better this time. Love the judgements Robert go your best. Arminian theology does affirm divine election, but it interprets it as corporate rather than individual. Romans 9, the bedrock Scripture passage of high Calvinism is interpreted as the early church fathers did-as referring to the service of Israel and gentile believers in God’s plan, not to the eternal destinies of individuals. Armians affirm predestination, interpreting it with Romans 8 as God’s foreknowledge of faith. They reject reprobation except insofar as it is freely chosen by people who live against the will of God revealed in nature and the law written on their hearts Roman 1-2
Hey Robert you need to know Margaret is Cerbaz. Arminians believe that any limitation of God’s intention for everyone’s salvation, including “limited atonement,” necessarily and inexorably impugns the character of God even where Calvinists insist otherwise. Arminians do not claim that Calvinists say God is not good or loving: they say Calvinism implies that necessarily, so that Calvinists should say it in order to be logically consistent with themselves.
A. P. S. to Margaret,
Sometimes folks here can be a bit on the harsh side, and although I may disagree with Fr. Robert on some things (and that will be obvious if you read some of our previous exchanges) I know he is good Christian man, and a brother in Christ whom I respect, despite some of our disagreements on interpretation.
It is interesting that the Wesley brothers both taught and believed in the “assurance of salvation” by faith, i.e. the Justification by faith, alone! And they both also believed in the New Birth! John at least was close to Calvin here, as he wrote in his Journal, (Tues. May 14, 1765). See his “Works”, X, 349. “I believe justification by faith alone, as much as I believe there is a God. I declared this in a sermon preached before the University of Oxford, eight-and twenty years ago. I declared it to all the world eighteen years ago, in a sermon written expressly on the subject. I have never varied from it, no not a hair’s breadth, from 1738 to this day.”
Note both John and Charles were Evangelical Anglicans!
Calvin sums up his whole doctrine of God’s providence thus: “No wind ever arises or increases except by God’s providential governing of history cannot be expressed by means of permission’ God does not merely permit anything but ordains it and brings it about most certainly. For Calvin, this is seen most clearly in the fall of Adam, which was foreordained by God. Just in case there would be any quibbling about how strong Calvin’s doctrine of providence was, I will quote this passage from his Institutes: To sum up, since God’s will is said to be the cause of all things, I have made his providence the deteminative principle for all human plans and works, not only in order to display its force in the elect, who are ruled by the the Holy Spirit, but also to compel the reprobate to obedience.
Wow, so many “Margaret’s” I did know a Margaret who was a dear Roman Catholic lady, and a true conservative believer on these here blogs, somewhere? Though come to think of it, it has been sometime back. I hope this Margaret is not “Cebaz”? Who seems to have lost her faith?
Note, I am an Anglican myself, and VERY familiar with their (the Wesley’s) writings, both! I have John’s full “Works” and “Sermons”. And several books on Charles, his Hymns, etc., and some very old bio’s too! I even wrote a published essay many years ago on Sir John! 🙂
To sum up, since God’s will is said to be the cause of all things. I have made his providence the determinative principle for all human pland and works not only in order to display its force in the elect, who are ruled by the Holy Spitit, but also to compel thje reprobat to obedience. How could Calvin put it any mor blently and forefully than that? God compel the reprobate, the wicked, to obey his will. In other words, even the evil done by wicked people is foreordained and rendered certan by God. Later Calvinists such as Sproul will claim that Calvinism does not say that God coerces the wicked to do evil acts. Calvin seemed to it is so, even though he agrues God remains unstained by the evil of their deeds because his motives are goood while theirs are evil. Of course, this juist raise the question of the origin of evil motives.
Yes “Margaret”, I am..as Greg, Michael, etc. “Calvinist” all the way, though I am an “Infralapsarian” myself, as are many of the Reformed Creeds, etc. So your ‘preach’in to the choir’! 😉
Yikes typint to fast.
Wow, this two Margaret thing is very confusing to me also, especially as the other one, so I think I will out bow of this discussion, because it has gotten way too confusing to me and others I am sure.
To the other Margaret, if you are truly the Cerbaz we have been talking to previously, please identify yourself.
There is quite nothing worse than “bastard” so-called Calvinism! But Calvin is just not modern “Calvinism” per se! Note, I am myself something of a neo-Calvinist! Do you (Cerbaz) know what is Infralapsarian? It does appear not?
Yes Margaret I am cerbaz who has many doubts. Robert challenged me and I have been reading about Calvinism as I was brought up to believe once saved always saved and could not lose my salvation. Robert questioned that and I started reading to see what predestination was all about. Have my doubts gone away? Not yet still searching and again thank you for your concern for me and your prayers, I find calvinism cold hearted and their beliefs do not have the love that I think Jesus taught. Robert is stuffy and cold hearted and likes to make judgements before he knows the facts.
And another P. S. to “Margaret”,
I hope you are not pranking us, because I am beginning to wonder.
I think everyone here has been most patient, but I for one am wondering why you did not identify yourself as Cerbaz and have this conversation with us in the first place. I am going to ask CMP to look into it, because quite frankly i am beginning to get very suspicious.
Whew, I am with you mbaker! I will let the smoke clear! 😉
@Cerbaz: Perhaps my problem, is that I know too many “facts”! 😉 But, the challenge is still on! But again, lets cool down, and “think” shall we? 🙂
Yes Robert I know about Infralapsarian. To be perfectly blunt and to cut right to the chase as the saying goes my problem is primarily and especially with divne determinism that leads to God’s unconditional reprobation of certain people to eternal suffering in hell for his glory. I am opposed to any idea that, as the old Calvinist saying goes, “those who find themselves suffering in hell can at least take comfort in the fact that they are there for the greater glory of God.
Again M Baker I am cerbaz check with Michael same email address just been doing a lot of reading hope you are not offended.
Well this “stuffy old Irishman” needs some rest, so I will let me Calvinist brother Greg take my place. 😉 I will be back Lord-willing later!
If indeed there were a God whose true nature-whose justice or sovereignty- were reveled in the death of a child or the dereliction of a soul or a predestined hell, then it would be no great transgression to think of him as a kind of malevolent or contemptible demiurge, and to hate him and to deny him worship, and to see a better God then he.
I think that there was someone in this thread that was struggling with their faith. (Sorry, I have not read anything on this thread for a hundred or so comments.) they were supposed to email me. My invite is still open: michaelp @ credohouse dot org
If Cerbaz is who she says she is, and I am beginning to seriously doubt that, although some of us,including me and Michael, have even offered help privately and she has not responded then they need to prove themselves as well, as they have would have us to do. I will only go far with that victim type of thing. Then they will need to get a clue also. Two way street, IMO. Putting ourselves out as as victims of Christianity just doesn’t get it with me because it is usually our own lack of understanding that trips us up in the end.
I say that only because I have been there and done that.
M Baker again thank you for your prayers. I have issues with Calvinism and I am expressing them. This is not for you to think I am looking to say something I don’t believe or to cause you grief. Robert doubted that I was a Christian I took exception to this and started to read about Calvinism and found that it did not fit with what I believe the bible teaches. I am searching for answers and I will continue to. Sorry if this has caused you to believe I am cerbaz who was ready to say goodbye to my Christian belief that I have held for 30 years. Calvinism says and Robert says I never was a Christian. So if your daughter Michael says the sinners prayer and say Jesus is her saviour and then later has doubts are you going to say she was never a Christian. That is what Robert has said and that is what Calvinism believes.
Some Calvinist defend God’s goodness based on what is called the “greate good” theodicy. All Calvinists incorporate some version of the greater good defense of God’s goodness in the face of sin and evil into their doctrines of providence. The problem is belief in the divine decision to reprobate many people to hell by sovereignly, “passing over them” when choosing some to save. In what sense can hell be said to serve a greater good? What good?
Second Margaret, or Cerbaz, or whoever you are,
I am pained that you would even think Calvinism is so important that you would actually lose your faith over it. I feel sorry for you if that has influenced you to do so.
I don’t know what you have been taught but but both sides of this issue have their problems. So if you are basing your doubts on either side then I think you are losing sight of the real issue, which is Christ. No other belief can save you, but only the Holy Spirit can bring you back to real truth, as the Bible promises. But if you don’t believe in the Bible, I can give you no hope, because there comes a time in our lives when we have to forgo these all these arguments over whether Calvinism or Armianism are right, because these ARE defined an non-essentials. I hope you can see that and get past it, because there is nothing further I can say or do except to pray for you unless you can.
God bless.
No Greg, i don’t think so, even though I have my own doubts as to whether we are being pranked or not. But, hey, okay if we are. We should be able to take it, because our main priority, no matter which side we fall on, should be to promote Christ first. If we can’t do that, then we deserve whatever bad reputation we get in defending the faith.
Sorry you are feeling that I am not being honest in asking these questions. I am not a troo;. I am asking these questions because Robert questioned whether or not I was a christian. Like I said I was taught once saved always saved. So I looked into the calvinist view that Robert holds so highly and found things that made me say really this is what Christians believe. Not acceptable to me and again I as a Christian have doubts about what I was taught. How can born again believers filled with the holy spirit disagree on something so important as a sinners prayer that is meaningless. So M Baker yes I am questioning my faith on this. For me this important and the teaching that I have believed for 30 years. So my own children’s prayer to Jesus was not real unless they were elect ones. This is acceptable to you?
Margaret,
Did you not even read my last post to you? I still think you are letting this Calvinist thing influence you way too much. Many here might think he was right, and who will really know until we get to heaven and ask Christ face to face to face? But who saves you in the long run, girl? Christ, or what other people think? Think about it.
My last word is Calvinism teaches only the elect are chosen by God so those who pray the sinners prayer and ask Jesus to save them from their sins and then later have doubts were never the elect and really never prayed the sinners prayer or for the glory of God they are going to hell. Is this Calvinism and is this acceptable to you? The girl Michael talked to do you know if she was one of the elect or not. Was her prayer to accept Jesus as Lord and saviour not forever? I am not a troll I am a Christian searching for answers and questioning what have been taught because of what has been said here. Think what you want of me!
I want to return to that love for Jesus I once had and yet I struggle with The calvinist doctrine of God’s sovereignty including evil as part of God’s plan, purpose, and determining pwer blatantly contradicts scripture passages that revel “God is Love” 1 John 4:8 takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked Ezek. 18:32 wants everyone to be saved Ezek 18:32 1 Tim 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9 and never tempts anyone James 1:13. To be sure, Calvinist have clever but unconvincing explanations of these and numerous other passages of scripture. For example John Piper argues that God has complex feelings and motives such that he genuinely regrets that sin and evil have to be part of his world, genuinely wishes that all could be save, and is grieved when those he predestined to die and even suffer in hell for eternity for his glory experience that fate. This make God doubled- mindes. Is this acceptable to you? So again I ask does God only predestine the elect and send the rest to hell for His glory?
Margaret,
It is not what I think of that matters eternally, nor what Calvin and his followers think, right though they think they may be, but what Christ thinks. Concentrate more on that for a change instead, and I think you will get an entirely different perspective on what Christianity really is all about.
M Baker scriptures from the bible are used to explain Calvinism so really what is one to believe?
Do not doubt your beliefs and am glad that God has helped you Greg, however this does not help me in my quest to understand Calvinism. As I stated I started to research this because Robert doubted that I had ever been a Christian.
Margaret.
Again I say that Calvinism is not the last word in Christianity, but you seem intent on believing the former., and may I say somehow blaming Calvinism, although i have certainly empathized with you, doing that is a cop out. I am not a Calvinist myself, but i think you are blaming others for your own lack of belief.
So please concentrate in Christ first, who does provide salvation and answers.. Not that I am not in sympathy to your cause., because I am, because of wrong teaching that made me disbelieve, but for different reasons. However, you have been given every chance here both publically and privately and have still insisting on blaming something else, or someone else, for your own lack of unbelief.
You need to look within now.