I sat down with a young lady not too long ago and had a conversation. This was a conversation about faith—her faith. Better put, this was a conversation about a faith that once was and is no more. She was a very interesting and bright lady—inquisitive, well-read, and very suspicious. She began by telling me that she had been a Christian, but had since left the faith. Christ was once a part of her confession. However, after a long voyage of not finding sufficient answers for her doubts, she came to the conclusion that she believes she has had no choice but to follow her own integrity and renounce Christ all together. That said, when I asked her to share with me what her particular problems were, she became very emotional. It was just as if I represented Christianity, and she was ready to take all of it out on me.
Ignorance. Pity. Shame. These are all word descriptions she associated with Christianity. However, through these superficial word descriptions, it was evident that the best root word to describe her feelings was “betrayal”. She had been betrayed by the Church, because they duped her into a belief not unlike that of the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. When she discovered this “betrayal,” no one could provide a valid answer or excuse. So she left. She is now an unbeliever—a soon-to-be evangelistic unbeliever no doubt. I discussed the issue with her for quite a while. However, she seemed to have come to the point in this process that she was no longer open to counsel, no matter what I said.
As many of you know, a part of my ministry is dealing with people who doubt their faith just like this young lady. I possess well over a dozen books containing a plethora of autobiographical sketches of people who once proclaimed to be Christians. Yet, these same individuals are now professing evangelistic atheism, agnosticism, or skepticism. They are “evangelistic” in that their avowed goal is to convert, or rather “unconvert”, others to their world view system of unbelief. I have received e-mails, phone calls, and personal visits from numerous people who have either already, or are on the verge of leaving the Christian faith. On a positive note, may I say that many of those individuals have been restored to a faith in Christ.
Leaving Christianity is one of the most serious issues facing the Church today. Right under our noses, an epidemic is confronting Christianity— the “disease” of unbelief spreading among our very own. The ironic fact is that there is a great assembly of people in our churches who are somewhere in the process of leaving. No, I am not talking about them leaving one denomination, only to join another Christian group. I am not talking about abandoning some institutionalized notion of Christianity. I am not even talking about the explicit renunciation of their expressed beliefs. I am talking about those who are leaving Christ. (And this is coming from a Calvinist who does not believe that those who are truly elect will ever leave).
Over 31 million Americans are saying “check please” to the church, and are off to find answers elsewhere. Jeff Schadt, coordinator of Youth Transition Network, says thousands of youth fall away from the church when transitioning from high school to college. He and other youth leaders estimate that 65 to 94 percent of high school students stop attending church after graduating. From my studies and experience I find that leaving the church is, on many occasions, the first visible step in one’s pilgrimage away from Christ.
There are so many complicated reasons why people “leave Christ” and I don’t propose to do justice to them here. However, I do want to discuss the observations I have made of the steps that people take in leaving Christianity.
Step One: Doubt
This is the case when a person begins to examine his or her faith more critically by asking questions, expressing concerns, and becoming transparent with their doubt. One normally finds this step coming from teenagers, or those in the process of transitioning from adolescence to their teen years. However, this step frequently applies to individuals included in demographics that reach much farther out than the teen years. This step of doubt is not wholesale, but expresses an inner longing to have questions answered and the intellect satisfied, at least to some degree. Normally, a person experiencing this step will seek out mentors in the faith, someone he respects who will listen to his “doubt.”
While there are several diverse reasons that are responsible for the initiation of this doubt, three primary causes stand out:
Maturation: Much of the time, the cause is purely reflective of one’s age progression, a phase in life we like to call “simple maturation.” As people grow older, they begin to ask more serious questions about their beliefs (and their parents’ beliefs as well). During this stage of life, intellectual maturation, or at least what we perceive to be such, becomes a stronger motivator in our life. We begin to grow in our critical thinking, and discernment skills grow stronger.
Intellectual challenges: Often, the doubt comes from intellectual challenges in the form of questions. “Is the Bible truly reliable?” “Does science demonstrate that there is no proof of God?” “Why do I even need to believe in God?”
Experiential challenges: These types of challenges come from God’s actions (or lack thereof) in our lives. This is exemplified through prayers that don’t get answered, the apparent silence of God in a person’s experience, or a tragedy from which the doubter or someone else was not rescued. These experiential challenges can be catalysts which ignite intellectual challenges.
Any one of these (or all three together) can fire the starting gun on the voyage away from Christianity.
Step Two: Discouragement
This follows doubt, as a person becomes frustrated because he is not finding the answers to his questions. The answers (or lack thereof) cause his discouragement. He becomes further discouraged because he has little or no hope that acceptable answers to his questions will ever be found. His church tells him that merely raising said questions is “unchristian.” A Sunday school teacher may offer an ambivalent response such as, “I don’t know. You just have to believe.” Another might simply say, “That’s a good question, I have never thought of that before. . .” and then proceed on their own way, their own leap-of-faith journey, totally oblivious, just as if the question had never been asked.
These experiences cause obvious and great discouragement in the life of the beginning doubter, who sees his questions and concerns as legitimate, and they deserve to be answered. “Are others scared of these questions? If so, why?” are the doubter’s thoughts.
Step Three: Disillusionment
It is at this step that disillusionment sets in the mind of the doubter. He becomes disillusioned with Christianity in general and proceeds to engage in more serious doubt. He feels genuinely betrayed by those he had trusted most when he first believed. He becomes skeptical not only of what is, in his mind, an unwarranted story about Christ and the Bible, but also of the very people who encouraged and influenced him to believe such an untrustworthy myth. He is further disillusioned that the faith which he had been persuaded to believe was so saturated with naivete that not even his most trusted mentors could (or would) answer basic, elementary questions about the Bible, history, or faith. In his thinking, a person’s “legitimate” intellect was discarded out of hand, supplanted by the church becoming an “illegitimate” contender for the minds of gullible believers. Once the mind of the “Disillusioned Doubter” has been lost, the turn has been made. He may still be emotionally rooting for his former faith, but this will soon pass as his “intellect” talks him out of his emotional conviction. What a very sad place this is for the doubting “leaver,” as he realizes for the first time that he is truly leaving Christ. It is at this point that he will likely go through an indefinite period of depression, despondency, and indecisiveness.
Step Four: Apathy
At this stage in his journey away from the Christian faith, the disillusioned “former Christian” becomes apathetic to finding answers, as he is convinced that the answers don’t exist. He is treading headlong down the path of skepticism, agnosticism, or all-out atheism, but he doesn’t have the courage to admit it to himself or others. An individual in this stage frequently lives as a “closet unbeliever.” He is convinced that it is not worth the risk to come clean about his departure from the faith. He desires an uneventful and peaceful existence in his state of unbelief, without creating any controversy. This may help him to cope with the depression that his loss of faith has brought about. If he isn’t honest with himself or others about it, he won’t have to deal with it. Surely, he may continue to hand out bulletins at church, sing in the choir, show up to socials, take a mission trip here and there, and even teach a Sunday School class, but he no longer believes. He is content, for now, to stay in the closet.
However, not everyone stays in the apathy stage.
Step Five: Departure
(This is where I met the young lady I introduced to you at the beginning of this post. In actuality, she was somewhere in between apathy and departure.) At this stage in the process, the fact that one has left the faith has become real to him, and he is ready and willing to announce the fact to the world. Because of his sense of betrayal, he feels as if it is his duty to become an “evangelist of unbelief.” His goal and mission now becomes to “unconvert” the converted.
This is the stage where many former Christians, such as Bart Erhman, reside. In my opinion, Dr. Erhman is full of zeal due to his sense of betrayal. Either he feels that he has to legitimize his departure by taking with him as many as he can, or he is truly attempting to help people quit living a lie out of true concern. Either way, his emotional commitment to Christianity is gone and reversed. He is now an evangelist of unbelief.
“I don’t really even care what you have to say to me,” she told me that day. “I just don’t believe anymore and there is nothing anyone can do about it.” As I thought about this young lady, one thing kept coming to mind: How was she a part of the church for so long without the church ever engaging her on these issues? You see, the issues she confronted were numerous, but foundational. She doubted the resurrection of Christ; the inspiration, inerrancy, canon of Scripture; and the historicity of the Christian faith in general. If the church had legitimized her questions during the doubting phase and truly engaged her on an intellectual front, I can’t help but think things might have been different. But once one reaches the apathy stage, that seems to be that point of no return.
Folks, we have a lot in our job description. But rooting people theologically by presenting the intellectual viability of the Evangelical faith must be at the top of the priority list and it must come early. While I understand this is not all there is to the Christian faith, it is an absolutely vital part of discipleship and foundational to everything else.
Everyone will go through the doubt phase. Everyone should ask questions about their faith. If you have not asked the “How do you know?” questions about the message of the Gospel, this is not “a good thing.” We should be challenged to think through these questions early in our faith walk. (Taking my own advice, I am reading this to my 14-year-old daughter right now. Why? She needs to hear it.) The Church needs to rethink its educational programs. Expositional preaching, while very important, is not enough. Did you hear me? Expositional preaching is not enough. It is not the correct venue for the discipleship that is vital for us to prevent and overcome this epidemic. We should not fool ourselves into thinking that it does.
The church has been on an intellectual diet for the last century and we are suffering from theological atrophy. What else do you expect when we have replaced theological discipleship, instead prioritizing entertainment, numbers, and fast-food Christianity that can produce nothing more than a veneer of faith seasoned for departure?
The solution: We must reform our educational programs in the church. We must lay theological foundations through critical thinking. We must understand that the “Great Commission” is to make disciples, not simply converts. And most importantly, we must pray that God will grant a revival of the mind and the spirit, knowing that without the power of the Holy Spirit, no amount of intellectual persuasion can change an antagonistic heart.
Absent these solutions, the epidemic of leaving Christ will only worsen. We will (if we don’t already) have more evangelists of unbelief than we do the Gospel.
355 replies to "Leaving (Christ)ianity"
Hi Cerbaz.
I don’t fear doubt and fear. I have been there myself. Michael is a good guy, and I think you are in safe hands with him.
Btw, is Cerbaz a Spanish name, what does it mean?
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Greg, inherent in the Gospel is a deep sense of social justice. I was only reading in Zechariah today in regards to fasting that God was saying… stop your traditions, and get your heart right. Start caring for each other. Look after the poor, the widow, the orphan the refugee. Stop your hardness of heart and thinking evil of each other.
This theme runs all the way through the minor prophets and Israel’s lack of social justice within their community was the reason for their exile. Caring for the hurting within our community and extended community is part of the whole repentance package.
Greg, explain why that is jaw dropping?
Inherent in Jesus ministry was the whole reconciling all to the father. Inherent in that is the whole concept of true community. The community cannot call its self righteous in Christ, if it doesn’t care for those whom Jesus cares for.
The pharisees majored on sin, but Jesus majored on forgiveness of sin and what that looked like.
Greg, its completely on topic. We are talking about pastoral care for the hurting.
Robert, I’m not entirely sure what the fact you’re probably 10-20 years older than me has to do with the price of tea in China, but I acknowledge you are. Beside the point, which is this:
Michael started a discussion about the way we let doubters slip away from the church, and the even though he’s Calvinist in his soteriology, this causes him (legitimate, merciful) pastoral concern. You and your buddy Greg respond with the semi-theological equivalent of “So? Some people are destined for destruction. Sucks to be them!” I can think of no less-pastoral response if I try.
And to what end? If, as I believe (and you clearly do not), we actually bear responsibility for those souls we drive away from Jesus (cf. Matt. 18:6-7 & synoptic parallels), then such callous disregard for a seeking person’s questions could have eternal consequences for them *and us*. If on the other hand, it’s all down to election and no human has any influence in the matter, then all you’re doing is rubbing salt in the wounds.
This is one of the paradoxes displayed by many–though not all–Calvinists I have known. They seem to be deeply dedicated to the proposition that those destined for God’s wrath in the next life, must not fail to feel the full extent of their own wrath in this one. I’ve never figured out whether this is schadenfreude or just plain meanness, but it sure seems common. Mercy, it’s not.
And Robert, you asked me to respond with “Truth” biblically and theologically. I won’t play the book-chase with you on theology because I don’t think it’s constructive or relevant. But Truth, biblically, is ultimately and finally Jesus himself, the Way, Truth, and Life (John 14:6). And Jesus, the Truth Himself, said:
“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden , and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matt. 11:28-30).
Talk to me about truth when you start looking and sounding like the Truth.
I am saving this whole thread as a testimony to Calvinism and Calvinists. It really IS as bad as it
Is made out to be and this thread is the proof.
@Greg – Never mind me. I think anyone reading this thread can make up their own mind. Enough have been said, don’t you think?
@Dan: My point about the age difference was because this 20/30 generation today is so narcisistic to my mind, and sadly even the “emergent” Christianity… Brian McLaren, and company, Bell etc. Indeed the Wesley brothers, especially John had more in common with both Calvin and Luther, especially on Justification by Faith. See btw John’s most in-depth essay on the doctrine of Sin, reading it you simply don’t get the sense of today’s Arminianism! And certainly old-school Wesleyanism held to the doctrine of sin to degree.
But again here, I have somewhat pressed the Doctrine of the Parable of the Sower, and not a word “theologically” from you Arminians! Indeed the Parable is a hard statement for Armnian doctrine! This is really the issue theologically. And before we can get to any social doctrine and idea, we simply must deal with the basic idea of the doctrine of God, and again this is most certainly blurred in so-called evangelical theology today, as noted with the emergents.
So, are YOU an emergent? Sadly an important question today in our time of postmodernity!
So you can cry foul all you want, but this is really a smokescreen to the issue of the great doctrine of God! And Divine Election will always be central here.
Hey, Fr. Robert? I don’t consider myself either Calvinist or Arminian — I think both positions are true at the same time — but I’m very familiar with the parable of the sower, and I do not see how it would be difficult for an Arminian to interpret. When I preach from that passage (I’ve done it twice in the last year,) I talk about how God works the soil to prepare it to receive the word of God. Each person is responsible for hearing the word and letting it grow up in them, but if you ask God, and sometimes even if you don’t, God will plow and harrow the ground of your life in such a way that the seed will grow up and bear fruit. You just have to be willing to let Him, and not harden under the plow.
How does that upset Arminian theology? Just curious.
Robert I will match your bet on the parable of the sower and up the ante to the story Jesus told about the unfruitful tree which the master wanted to cut down and burn…
But the faithful servant said no! Let me tend to it. Dig around its roots. Fertilize it. Let me take care for it.
Jesus commended this servants faith and his pastoral care..
Now, I’m going to not only up the ante.. but go all in. Luke goes on to tell the story of lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son where the father goes out into the driveway and continually looks out for his son and embraces him when he comes back.
But wait, he doesn’t stop there.. he hits those hard hearted religious leaders right into the solar plexus. Tells them about the religious leaders who are beating his servants through the parable of the shrewd manager..
Finally he tells the religious leaders off that they have divorced themselves from God. And highlights that point by talking about the leper in heaven and the rich man in hell.. btw that rich man was representative of those hard hearted religious leaders who thought they were right with God!
I take great heart that Michael Patton is like the father looking out for his son. He is like the servant who says no, I’m going to dig around the roots and fertilize, water and take care of this tree. In my book, Michaels example and those like him – are the only reason why I don’t outright reject calvinists entirely…because I sure have run into some mean bastards in my time.
It seems we will never know the source of the young lady’s disillusionment and sense of betrayal in her experience with the church that led in part to her “loss of faith” in Christianity and ultimately Christ.
I can offer from personal experience another potential factor along the steps Micheal outlined although not specifically identified.
In my spiritual journey I went from a very traditional denomination up through high school to became involved a church that was “mildly” charismatic in worship the summer before college. I experienced deep heartfelt worship that I had never experienced before, made many deep long lasting friendships with solid Christians, served in youth and college and career ministry and grew deeply in my faith and love of Christ.
There were some on staff and in teaching positions who began to teach a form of “name it and claim it” faith although not by name and that while the Bible did not ensure you a life free from trouble that victory over any problem or health issues was obtainable with enough faith.
Long story short I went through a series of multiple health, relationship and financial setbacks to which I applied a desperate “Lord if you don’t come through I am in deep doo doo” kind of “faith.” As you might expect God did not come through in the way I believed He promised to on many levels.
My intellect and struggling faith had to conclude that God had not broken any promises however my relationship experience suffered every bit as if God had walked away from me in a time of my greatest need and repeatedly.
Still I knew there was no other person in which to find salvation and words of life. Needless to say wrong theology can do significant harm when it was equated with God’s word yet found to be false.
I am still in recovery on experiencing the more intimate relationship I once had but my earlier experiential faith and intellectual faith never let me walk away by His grace. Still I can understand…
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
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Hi Scott. Well said.
I think there is a problem when we make any theology out of balance. While I believe that theology is extremely important – I believe we need to learn how to treat people well within the bounds of our theology when it appears to fail us.
@Phil: Thanks to respond here on the Parable of the Sower. First, we can get lost in the “details” of this Parable, we can see that in the notes of the likes of the Dake’s Bible, etc. But, when we get to the “thematic” centre, it is simply the ‘Doctrine of God’, and His Word! For it is finally only the true “Word” of God itself that creates both the “good soil” and the “fruit” that endures! Just to quckly quote the Reformation Study Bible note here: “The coming of the kingdom is not equally visible to everyone, although it is a kingdom of power. Those on the outside have unreceptive hearts. For those with ears to hear, the parable unveils the “mystery” of redemption, hidden in the person and work of Christ Himself.” Of course only GOD In Christ, can “regenerate” the heart & mind, with the Gospel and Good News of Christ, this “kerygma” (message) of Christ! And this is not ethical instruction, which can only come after the regeneration and kerygma.
Sorry to speak quickly here, we could speak more fully, but this is the essence I believe.
It sounds like the young lady had the realisation that beliefs are not facts. She wanted to make sure what she believed to be true, was actually true.
But when she came to investigate this by asking questions and doing research, the results of her investigation clearly established that her beliefs were not true. She would have been foolhardy indeed to continue to dedicate her life to something which she had established to be untrue.
The bible says prayers will be answered (“ask and it shall be given unto you”), and yet all prayers are not answered.
The bible claims to be the perfect word of god and yet contains hundreds of contradictions.
There is no physical evidence of a man called Jesus,and no contemporary record of the existence of such a man.
God is invisible, inaudible, we can’t touch, smell or taste him, or indeed detect him in any way.
Everything is just as though there isn’t and never was such a thing as a god. Just as though the word ‘god’ and the entity it describes were both a concept constructed by man..
@Greg: Btw love the texts from Rev. 19: 11-16! 🙂
@Craig: The real “mean bastards” are Satan and his demons! (Eph. 6: 12)
Fr. Robert wrote:
Fr. Robert, I realize that you were being brief and may have left out a lot of explanation, but I think you’re missing the point. The same Word landed on four differently-prepared soils. It only bore fruit in one of them. Clearly it was not the Word that prepared the soil; the soil itself had to be prepared properly for the Word. For this reason, Jesus warns his listeners after explaining the parable, “Be careful how you listen.” (Luke 8:18)
Sounds more Arminian than Calvinist to me, actually. Although, let me remind you, I’m not strictly Arminian, I actually think both sides make true claims.
Btw Phil: I am no “Calminian”! Note too Augustine here, and his debate with Pelagius. If you have access, see his (Augustine’s) piece on “Causa Gratiae”.
Robert. I think at times the devil and his henchmen are clapping their hands together and just watching… take fred phelps and his crew who truly show calvinsim to be the devils work.
Note, this is a Parable.. and the issue is not four other soils, but what soil does God’s Word use to produce saving faith and fruit! But indeed, for “us” how we listen is part of God’s work in and to us!
@Craig: Oh please, stop with the poor ad hoc, and get to the Biblical Text!
Btw Phil note Mk. 4: 15…”The sower sows the Word.”
*Yes, I am rather busy with e-mails and other blog answers! 😉
Robert, very briefly:
1) I’m 50, not 20 or 30.
2) I’m not emergent; way not-hip for that in fact. I’m an Anabaptist by heritage and philosophy/theology; one who for many years thought I had issues with God and faith that didn’t seem quite right, then discovered to my shock that when I actually looked again at the Bible, it didn’t say half the crap that people claim it says…and did say a rather different set of things. Hence I came to the conclusion that it wasn’t God, but rather people who rather badly misrepresent God, that was the source of my frustration and disillusion.
3) I don’t see Calvinist election in the Parable of the Sower at all. I see all people being offered the Word by God, and only some *choosing* to hear and respond to it.
@Dan: Well, my Irish little brother is 50, and he is now an American citizen, and one time American Marine (1980’s). I am 63, 64 this late Oct. I think we chatted on your blog one time? I remember your avid Anabaptist positions!
Well “we” are not gonna agree much here, since I am also a “churchman” and somewhat Creedal, i.e. Nicene to Chalcedon at least. Menno Simons btw held to a Valentinian position on the so-called “flesh” of Christ, just a point.
And of course we will not agree about the nature of the Parable of the Sower, for only the “regenerate” man/person will choose Christ unto the ability to produce lasting “fruit” from “good ground”! (Mk. 4: 8 ; 20)
Btw, how does one receive “ears to hear” the word of God? But save by faith, which comes with/by regeneration and the gift of God! “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:6) And as verse 8: “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (See also John 1: 13)
Thanks Craig,
A class I took on How to Interpret the Bible that Micheal Patton taught helped me immensely in identifying particular errors within the false theology I had been taught. This was not a “name what you want and claim it” type of thinking but rather one that believed all promises mentioned in the Bible to all believers (new and old Testaments) were our right to claim in and by faith.
There were also two significant episodes even after recognizing the former teachings as false experientially where I fully believed I had heard God’s direction and promise of deliverance within current circumstances. In both cases there were parallel stories in the Old Testament that seemed to support what I believed I had heard as being consistent with God’s ways.
I imagine recognizing where true faith crosses the line into presumption and discerning the prompting of the Holy Spirit from the promptings of what we desire will not soon become easy. I hope I have learned to recognize the danger of believing that my perception and/or interpretation of what I believe is God’s voice is as rock solid as my belief in Him, His character and His provision of salvation to me through Jesus Christ.
You know reading many of the recent comments on this thread leave me wondering why anyone who doubts would want to stay in Christianity. It seems some here worship theology rather than Christ, and I say that because I do believe in good theology. However when it becomes down to ad hominem stuff and personal opinion like it has in this thread, i can readily how it would turn a doubting Christian off. It sure does me.
We need to be more careful, IMO, how we come across, and that means not so much about being right as beingboth right and compassionate.
Kirk,
You sent me an email. I responded but it rejects your email every time. I don’t know why. Are we Facebook friends?
Please send me an email with your phone #. I know (think) I can still receive your emails.
[…] in LEAVING (CHRIST)IANITY, Michael Patton takes us through the stages that many people go through on their way to apostasy, […]
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You’re quite right, Robert, that we’ve chatted before, though I don’t recall that it was on my blog (I can’t search comments by contributor); it may have been another thread here on Michael’s. It’s also pretty obvious that we won’t be resolving the election/free will issue, upon which better minds than ours have butted heads for centuries.
Although I don’t think people usually frame it this way, I think the question of the *necessity* of free will comes down in large measure to a different question, which is why our *human* sense of justice (the one that says one can only be culpable if capable of choice) comes from human rebelliousness (the Calvinist would say so) or from God Himself (which is the more Arminian approach). And in all honesty I don’t know that we have a Biblical answer that is unequivocal in either direction.
BTW in the realm of Anabaptism, I do not mean to suggest I consider all of Menno’s doctrines unassailable. Nor, for that matter, is he the only Anabaptist thinker of note from the beginnings. But when I refer to myself as an Anabaptist, the major points I would adopt from that stream of thinking are a sola scriptura foundation for doctrine; the individual responsibility (and culpability) of each individual for his/her own choices, including of salvation, religious affiliation, and ongoing actions (and God’s having truly assigned capability along with responsibility in this regard); the absolute separation of earthly authorities from any standing in religious matters; the priesthood of all believers and the concomitant unacceptability of *authoritarian* church leadership structures/offices; and the way of nonviolent peacemaking. That’s probably an oversimplification but it’s certainly a decent summary.
But yes, I agree that we won’t see much doctrinal common ground no matter how we hash it out … too dissimilar foundations. Pax!
@Dan: Indeed when we get past the blog aspect of human posture, i.e. debate and differences, we are are both confronted with not so much “free” will (as all men and humanity are sinners), but what I would call theologically as “responsible” will before God, indeed we can see this is St. Paul’s Letter of Romans chapters 1 & 2, etc. And here we are also confronted with biblical epistemology! Indeed how we think and reason, and our methods in the Word of God. The Radical Reformation itself certainly had and has its own sort of method and limits of knowing and understanding God. Though I would say it is surely truncated! Perhaps the biggest area of loss and cutting itself short is in history, i.e. the Jewish Hellenism and the Greco-Roman. St. Paul is always a Jew and something of the fulness of the Pharisee! (Acts 22: 3 thru chapters 26, see 26: 2-8, etc.)
Indeed so-called “theology”.. the study and doctrine of God, must be done in faith, hope and love, and pastorally… as we can see and hear in St. Paul: “Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.” (2 Tim. 2: 10) But also pressing on to verse 15, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” We should also note verses 16 thru 19. And especially Paul’s metaphor of the “great house”.. 2 Tim. 2: 20-21! Surely, this has become “Christendom”, in the last 2000 years or so! Btw, I myself see “God’s firm foundation” as the best of the visible church (1 Tim. 3: 15), as the place of God’s “elect” (in this life)!
Good article. I am and have continued struggling. Ten years ago I was exposed to the Calvinist doctrine. I grew up in an Arminian church although it wasn’t identified as such and didn’t discuss the two doctrines at all.
I see now that Calvinism has many valid pts for its support and I have started leaning to accept the doctrine to the pt that I have been thinking that I am a ship intended for destruction and that has been my chosen course from the beginning of time. It has been difficult. I don’t doubt the existence of God, the devil doesn’t even doubt that. My doubt (or losing of faith) is that in my sin I feel that this is my elected path towards destruction.
Those stages are scary and apathy is on the door step for me where I simply give up and no longer care.
Thanks again for the article.
Indeed it is rather funny, but sad really that our “brother” Craig has called “Calvinists” and “Calvinism” “henchmen” with the devil! Humm.. not so loving or kind here either! I know that though I don’t believe “Arminianism” to be biblical, I would not call them all “henchmen”, who believe in some aspects of it! Note, I in fact like much of the Wesley brothers…they are or were Evangelical Anglicans! And note, please I am an Anglican “evangelical” myself!
Part of the problem is that the popular culture is so aggressively anti-Christian these days, and young people are nothing if not adept readers of the zeitgeist. But it does not only affect them. Many church members, knowingly or unknowingly, are largely formed in their beliefs by people with un-Christian or anti-Christian agendas. When young people question such people, they may have no adequate response in part because they do not actually even believe the Christian position in the first place, or at least have significant doubts about it.
There may have been a time when a lackluster intellectual formation was acceptable for Christians, because the more-or-less default position for a person was to be part of a church. The times, they have a-changed. Now we may assume that most people will either not be born into any church context, or else that they will probably leave at some point in the path to full adulthood. It really is too counter-cultural for a majority of people. Those who stay will have to have strong foundations, both spiritual and intellectual, to persevere in these times. It is tempting to see in our own times the great falling away described in Revelations, but there has been no shortage of people in all periods of Christian history who have fallen into that temptation. We do not know the hour. But we do know that without aggressive work, our churches will continue shrinking and dying. The work you are doing is important. Thank you.
You know what gets me is almost every time we talk about immorality and critics of Christianity, all the hypocrites like Martin and Benno would crawl out of the woodwork with bellicose criticism of those who dare to point out the sins of those who live contrary to the Bible. They claim that it is uncharitable to criticize the sinners while at the same time being uncharitable in criticizing the criticizers.
I fully agree with Fr R’s application of the parable. But let’s not forget what we are really talking about here. We are not talking about people who have legitimate doubts and sincerely searching for the truth as brothers and sisters in the faith. We are talking about people who have left who are on their way to becoming ardent critics of our faith like evangelistic atheists. People who IMO unjustly label us as irrational, deniers of reality and most importantly attack the integrity of God. And the worst we say to them is that we doubt that they were ever truly saved and this is suppose to be unloving? Are you kidding me? What harm can it be to tell them that they have never truly believed in the mythical God they now deny or the mythical hell that they are going to that they also don’t believe in? Let’s face it too often the motive for someone to claim they were once a Christian and now they reject it, this past affiliation is suppose to give them more credibility in their attack of Christianity. If they are offended by the accusation that they were never true Christians in the first place, it is because it removes their gravitas to promote their new found faith in atheism.
I would too like to say that, I appreciate our brother Michael’s blog, we are both Calvinists, and though however we don’t always agree, I think we are always on the same page! I am always rather sad, and surely really dislike people who are pastor-teachers (and here this includes theolog’s, who sit in their Irovy Towers, and cash their check’s..teaching).. but who hardly engage pastorally! Or when they do, speak simply or simplisticly and without getting their hands dirty! Indeed here is a great shame, itself!
Do you even realize how contradictory that sounds. Everyone has a theology. You wanting to be right is a theology. It may not be a Biblically sound theology but being the son of fallen Adam you’ve created your own theology. You just want to dispense your view of right and your view of compassion. Compassion in the absence of truth is insanity.
@Tel: Hey mate, I have missed your voice! 🙂
Thanks Bro, I am very busy lately, too many balls in the air, check in when I can. This is definitely my favorite blog. Thanks Michael.
@Jacob F. : Hey mate, check out the life of the great evangelical poet, Wlilliam Cowper (pronouced “Cooper” btw), he had a great struggle with the doctrine of election & reprobation. See his hymns: “God moves in a mysterious way”, and “There is a fountain filled with blood”. And even his hymn: “Castaway”. He was a man who had many deep struggles! But no doubt he was man with some aspects of mental health issues, perhaps brought on by a physical problem or problems? Since he was a man of the 17th/18th century, we will really never know, but it does appear that his illness was cyclical and perhaps clinical, but surely the trials were almost entirely interior. And yet, I almost surely believe I/we will see him in heaven!
Btw, check out the Olney Hymns (1779) he did with the great John Newton!
Teleologist,
I think perhaps you might have misunderstood me. I wholeheartedly agree that compassion in the absence of truth is insanity. I believe Christ preached and practiced both, and certainly those are not only Christ’s words but Michael Patton’s (see blog rules) as well, that we are to be irenic in our dealings with others on this blog. as we express opinion.
Granted, it can get out of hand sometimes, because no one ever agrees 100% of the time, but we all need to be careful that we don’t get so one sided that we stop listening, and worse, have folks stop wanting to listen to us when we do have valid points to add the discussion.
You are right that everyone has some form of theology. That’s why when I speak of being right, it isn’t being right in my own eyes, but agreeing on essential biblical truths. I believe we can have truth along with compassion. It’s a hard balance to achieve sometimes, admittedly, but it seems to me the focus of this blog, at least as I understand it in the written rules CMP has laid out for all of us, is one of both Spirit and truth.
@m/baker: I admit I am a somewhat older crusty “presbyter” (note my life experience included the military & combat…always central in my life, even as I age), and I am always a “theolog” type, and surely both Reformational and Reformed, i.e. a Calvinist, but I think I am somewhat of a neo-Calvinist, and I hope I am after the “Biblical Text”, but always seeking “faith, hope and love”, in the face of God In Christ! 🙂
*And btw, ‘Women really are from Venus, and men from Maris’! ;)… I remember that American Christian book, (back in the 90’s?)
@mbaker, I am sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying. I have to admit that you did throw me off when you said
I don’t think any of us who are dogmatic about our theology worship it but we believe that God has revealed Himself in history and written words so that by the help of the Holy Spirit we would know how to worship Him. So if I am dogmatic it is because I want to worship Him in truth/theology. As a result there are times when we need to call a spade a spade, not for the sake of creating antagonism but speaking the truth sometimes will cause offense. None of us like to be told that what we do is unacceptable/sin. I know Calvinism/Arminianism is a long standing debate but to tell others (not you necessarily) that they shouldn’t approach those who left the faith from a Calvinist perspective because it is unloving is hypocritical.
Btw “Teleologist’s” remark on page 5 #7 is right on the mark, and not just because he agrees with me, but because of his spiritual & rational clarity!
Rock on Tel!
Teleologist
Hopefully we understand each other now. I am neither Calvinist or Arminian, and I do believe that good theology, both intellectually speaking and in practice, is crucial to the spiritual health of all Christians. I believe where we fail overall nowadays as a modern church is that we often take sides on so many non-essential issues that we lose our focus on the gospel itself, which does emphasis both Spirit and truth. Thus we lose people like this young lady, that we are supposed to be, according to scripture, snatching out of the fire.
I take that very seriously, because I have sure been there and done that, specifically when I came out of the hyper-charismatic church years and years ago, and literally had been so taught much that was false that I had to relearn the Bible all over again, and seek out a church where I could do that under someone who followed it with integrity.
My friends who believed in both Spirit and truth were very patient with me as I struggled to understand what is right in the eyes of the Lord. I can never thank them enough, for sticking with me, otherwise I would have lost my faith entirely.
So I truly can sympathize with this young lady in Michael’s post being disillusioned by the kind of church that make pie in the sky kind of promises, and will not answer questions truthfully.
@mbaker, Thank you, I agree with you and I share a similar background. I’ve also had my salvation questioned because of my view on Genesis (OEC). So I disagree slightly with you on debating the non-essentials, because they are still terribly important but you are right, sometimes (not this time) we lose sight of the gospel/essentials. As in the case of Christians who are in similar situations like this lady before she left the faith, more debate and addressing of their questions might help.
Thank you @Greg I feel the same about my YEC siblings. 🙂