I sat down with a young lady not too long ago and had a conversation. This was a conversation about faith—her faith. Better put, this was a conversation about a faith that once was and is no more. She was a very interesting and bright lady—inquisitive, well-read, and very suspicious. She began by telling me that she had been a Christian, but had since left the faith. Christ was once a part of her confession. However, after a long voyage of not finding sufficient answers for her doubts, she came to the conclusion that she believes she has had no choice but to follow her own integrity and renounce Christ all together. That said, when I asked her to share with me what her particular problems were, she became very emotional. It was just as if I represented Christianity, and she was ready to take all of it out on me.
Ignorance. Pity. Shame. These are all word descriptions she associated with Christianity. However, through these superficial word descriptions, it was evident that the best root word to describe her feelings was “betrayal”. She had been betrayed by the Church, because they duped her into a belief not unlike that of the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. When she discovered this “betrayal,” no one could provide a valid answer or excuse. So she left. She is now an unbeliever—a soon-to-be evangelistic unbeliever no doubt. I discussed the issue with her for quite a while. However, she seemed to have come to the point in this process that she was no longer open to counsel, no matter what I said.
As many of you know, a part of my ministry is dealing with people who doubt their faith just like this young lady. I possess well over a dozen books containing a plethora of autobiographical sketches of people who once proclaimed to be Christians. Yet, these same individuals are now professing evangelistic atheism, agnosticism, or skepticism. They are “evangelistic” in that their avowed goal is to convert, or rather “unconvert”, others to their world view system of unbelief. I have received e-mails, phone calls, and personal visits from numerous people who have either already, or are on the verge of leaving the Christian faith. On a positive note, may I say that many of those individuals have been restored to a faith in Christ.
Leaving Christianity is one of the most serious issues facing the Church today. Right under our noses, an epidemic is confronting Christianity— the “disease” of unbelief spreading among our very own. The ironic fact is that there is a great assembly of people in our churches who are somewhere in the process of leaving. No, I am not talking about them leaving one denomination, only to join another Christian group. I am not talking about abandoning some institutionalized notion of Christianity. I am not even talking about the explicit renunciation of their expressed beliefs. I am talking about those who are leaving Christ. (And this is coming from a Calvinist who does not believe that those who are truly elect will ever leave).
Over 31 million Americans are saying “check please” to the church, and are off to find answers elsewhere. Jeff Schadt, coordinator of Youth Transition Network, says thousands of youth fall away from the church when transitioning from high school to college. He and other youth leaders estimate that 65 to 94 percent of high school students stop attending church after graduating. From my studies and experience I find that leaving the church is, on many occasions, the first visible step in one’s pilgrimage away from Christ.
There are so many complicated reasons why people “leave Christ” and I don’t propose to do justice to them here. However, I do want to discuss the observations I have made of the steps that people take in leaving Christianity.
Step One: Doubt
This is the case when a person begins to examine his or her faith more critically by asking questions, expressing concerns, and becoming transparent with their doubt. One normally finds this step coming from teenagers, or those in the process of transitioning from adolescence to their teen years. However, this step frequently applies to individuals included in demographics that reach much farther out than the teen years. This step of doubt is not wholesale, but expresses an inner longing to have questions answered and the intellect satisfied, at least to some degree. Normally, a person experiencing this step will seek out mentors in the faith, someone he respects who will listen to his “doubt.”
While there are several diverse reasons that are responsible for the initiation of this doubt, three primary causes stand out:
Maturation: Much of the time, the cause is purely reflective of one’s age progression, a phase in life we like to call “simple maturation.” As people grow older, they begin to ask more serious questions about their beliefs (and their parents’ beliefs as well). During this stage of life, intellectual maturation, or at least what we perceive to be such, becomes a stronger motivator in our life. We begin to grow in our critical thinking, and discernment skills grow stronger.
Intellectual challenges: Often, the doubt comes from intellectual challenges in the form of questions. “Is the Bible truly reliable?” “Does science demonstrate that there is no proof of God?” “Why do I even need to believe in God?”
Experiential challenges: These types of challenges come from God’s actions (or lack thereof) in our lives. This is exemplified through prayers that don’t get answered, the apparent silence of God in a person’s experience, or a tragedy from which the doubter or someone else was not rescued. These experiential challenges can be catalysts which ignite intellectual challenges.
Any one of these (or all three together) can fire the starting gun on the voyage away from Christianity.
Step Two: Discouragement
This follows doubt, as a person becomes frustrated because he is not finding the answers to his questions. The answers (or lack thereof) cause his discouragement. He becomes further discouraged because he has little or no hope that acceptable answers to his questions will ever be found. His church tells him that merely raising said questions is “unchristian.” A Sunday school teacher may offer an ambivalent response such as, “I don’t know. You just have to believe.” Another might simply say, “That’s a good question, I have never thought of that before. . .” and then proceed on their own way, their own leap-of-faith journey, totally oblivious, just as if the question had never been asked.
These experiences cause obvious and great discouragement in the life of the beginning doubter, who sees his questions and concerns as legitimate, and they deserve to be answered. “Are others scared of these questions? If so, why?” are the doubter’s thoughts.
Step Three: Disillusionment
It is at this step that disillusionment sets in the mind of the doubter. He becomes disillusioned with Christianity in general and proceeds to engage in more serious doubt. He feels genuinely betrayed by those he had trusted most when he first believed. He becomes skeptical not only of what is, in his mind, an unwarranted story about Christ and the Bible, but also of the very people who encouraged and influenced him to believe such an untrustworthy myth. He is further disillusioned that the faith which he had been persuaded to believe was so saturated with naivete that not even his most trusted mentors could (or would) answer basic, elementary questions about the Bible, history, or faith. In his thinking, a person’s “legitimate” intellect was discarded out of hand, supplanted by the church becoming an “illegitimate” contender for the minds of gullible believers. Once the mind of the “Disillusioned Doubter” has been lost, the turn has been made. He may still be emotionally rooting for his former faith, but this will soon pass as his “intellect” talks him out of his emotional conviction. What a very sad place this is for the doubting “leaver,” as he realizes for the first time that he is truly leaving Christ. It is at this point that he will likely go through an indefinite period of depression, despondency, and indecisiveness.
Step Four: Apathy
At this stage in his journey away from the Christian faith, the disillusioned “former Christian” becomes apathetic to finding answers, as he is convinced that the answers don’t exist. He is treading headlong down the path of skepticism, agnosticism, or all-out atheism, but he doesn’t have the courage to admit it to himself or others. An individual in this stage frequently lives as a “closet unbeliever.” He is convinced that it is not worth the risk to come clean about his departure from the faith. He desires an uneventful and peaceful existence in his state of unbelief, without creating any controversy. This may help him to cope with the depression that his loss of faith has brought about. If he isn’t honest with himself or others about it, he won’t have to deal with it. Surely, he may continue to hand out bulletins at church, sing in the choir, show up to socials, take a mission trip here and there, and even teach a Sunday School class, but he no longer believes. He is content, for now, to stay in the closet.
However, not everyone stays in the apathy stage.
Step Five: Departure
(This is where I met the young lady I introduced to you at the beginning of this post. In actuality, she was somewhere in between apathy and departure.) At this stage in the process, the fact that one has left the faith has become real to him, and he is ready and willing to announce the fact to the world. Because of his sense of betrayal, he feels as if it is his duty to become an “evangelist of unbelief.” His goal and mission now becomes to “unconvert” the converted.
This is the stage where many former Christians, such as Bart Erhman, reside. In my opinion, Dr. Erhman is full of zeal due to his sense of betrayal. Either he feels that he has to legitimize his departure by taking with him as many as he can, or he is truly attempting to help people quit living a lie out of true concern. Either way, his emotional commitment to Christianity is gone and reversed. He is now an evangelist of unbelief.
“I don’t really even care what you have to say to me,” she told me that day. “I just don’t believe anymore and there is nothing anyone can do about it.” As I thought about this young lady, one thing kept coming to mind: How was she a part of the church for so long without the church ever engaging her on these issues? You see, the issues she confronted were numerous, but foundational. She doubted the resurrection of Christ; the inspiration, inerrancy, canon of Scripture; and the historicity of the Christian faith in general. If the church had legitimized her questions during the doubting phase and truly engaged her on an intellectual front, I can’t help but think things might have been different. But once one reaches the apathy stage, that seems to be that point of no return.
Folks, we have a lot in our job description. But rooting people theologically by presenting the intellectual viability of the Evangelical faith must be at the top of the priority list and it must come early. While I understand this is not all there is to the Christian faith, it is an absolutely vital part of discipleship and foundational to everything else.
Everyone will go through the doubt phase. Everyone should ask questions about their faith. If you have not asked the “How do you know?” questions about the message of the Gospel, this is not “a good thing.” We should be challenged to think through these questions early in our faith walk. (Taking my own advice, I am reading this to my 14-year-old daughter right now. Why? She needs to hear it.) The Church needs to rethink its educational programs. Expositional preaching, while very important, is not enough. Did you hear me? Expositional preaching is not enough. It is not the correct venue for the discipleship that is vital for us to prevent and overcome this epidemic. We should not fool ourselves into thinking that it does.
The church has been on an intellectual diet for the last century and we are suffering from theological atrophy. What else do you expect when we have replaced theological discipleship, instead prioritizing entertainment, numbers, and fast-food Christianity that can produce nothing more than a veneer of faith seasoned for departure?
The solution: We must reform our educational programs in the church. We must lay theological foundations through critical thinking. We must understand that the “Great Commission” is to make disciples, not simply converts. And most importantly, we must pray that God will grant a revival of the mind and the spirit, knowing that without the power of the Holy Spirit, no amount of intellectual persuasion can change an antagonistic heart.
Absent these solutions, the epidemic of leaving Christ will only worsen. We will (if we don’t already) have more evangelists of unbelief than we do the Gospel.
355 replies to "Leaving (Christ)ianity"
Right on, David
Funny, I have had some psychology, even sexual and otherwise, as my training for the priesthood (way back when now). And even some Jungian studies, the collective unconscious, etc. But in reality neither Jung nor Freud, were systematic philosopical thinkers. Note btw that Jung’s work really centred upon the process of ‘individuation’ whereby a person undergoes a developmental journey, with myth, archetypes, and symbols.. towards the final destiny. And now we also know that Freud actually invented many of the scenes his patients were supposed to have had from memory. And psychoanalysis to say the least has been controversial!
Myself, as a Anglican priest/presbyter, I have found the biblical-theological & pastoral to be much more real and lasting! Btw, note Calvin was much more of the pastor-teacher-theolog, also. We should also see the value and worth of Calvin’s Genevan Theological Academy, with men like Theodore Beza, and then later, Francis Terretin. In fact Terretin’s “Elenctic” Theology was surely a thing of beauty! See available today from P&R I might add!
I have no objection to scholarly, sound apologetic instruction. However, I have a couple of questions about the progression you described, based on my own experience.
(1) Doesn’t this believer have any personal, basic experience of God Himself? Since my commitment to God rests on the conviction arising from learning through experience that He is there, I’ve never been able intellectually to solve any problem by declaring “God is not there.” He is. It’s part of my experience, an ontological fact.
(2) Doesn’t the believer ever ask any of the questions of God? There may not be answers in his or her immediate circle — not everybody knows a good apologist — but God knows the answers, and He is more than willing to get them across to anybody who asks and is listening for an answer.
I never completely understand any believer who does not have the real God in their experience; I don’t think I could persevere as a Christian without that genuine connection. And I do not understand at all somebody claiming to be searching for answers, but not asking God. Almost certainly, such a person has an ulterior motive for walking away from the faith, and actually does not want to find good answers.
@philwynk: Great points mate!
Btw, if this Phil Long, is the “theolog”, Philip J. Long? YOU missed it theologically and biblically, and you should have known better! Christianity can really only be expressed by dogmatic theology! Even our Orthodox (EO) friends know this. And if not Philip J.? Then please forgive me! But may the truth, both in “spirit and truth” reign! And may we pastor-teachers, seek to guide the flock of Christ, “speaking the truth in love”!
As one of those “be leavers” I relate to this girl’s pain and feeling of betrayal. The question that made me give up on my faith was the genocide in the Old Testament. The death of David’s baby, the fact that the bible does not ever say slavery is not acceptable. The treatment of women in the bible as men’s property. Yes I have read Paul Copan’s book “Is God a moral monster” I have read William Craig’s response to the genocide verses, I have read Matt Flannigan’s comments and do not feel they give good answers to these questions. I have read Hank Hannegraph’s books and still feel that these apologists are jumping through hoops to explain a book that was written by many different men.
Cerbaz…what do you do with the issue of Christ. It seems to me that it is Christ who reconciled all to God, no matter ones race, gender, age or social status.
If the bible is not a good book violence, slavery, women’s rights, and jesus is god and was with god how does that make it acceptable. I believed for 40 years what I was taught. It was when our church challenged us to read through the whole bible that I started to ask questions and went looking for the answers from apologists that I respected. I have read “The Case For Christ” by Lee Strobel and I found that he accepted the answers too easily without asking the hard questions.
Cerbaz.
We need to read the Bible within the genre that its meant and within the sociological cultural lenses of the day, and not as a novel. It contains governmental law, poetry, prophecy, history, song, lamenting and parables.
As for womens rights, the books of law, actually contain some really good advances for women rights within the framework of the culture of the day. Such as a slave women had the right to divorce her husband if he didn’t provide intimacy, shelter, clothing and provision. It also protected her from sexual advances during her time of bleeding and after giving birth.
These few things alone were remarkable within the culture of the day and so we do see the advancement of womens rights within the Bible.
40 years? and you had not read the Bible thru at least once? There again is another problem for this “be leaver”! I wonder sometimes how many who sit in the church and name Christ, have ever wore-out a Bible by reading it? I can remember well wearing out Bibles by reading them along the way… Thanks be to God! Note again my point about biblical illiteracy today! But indeed “Jesus Christ” is the Bibles Centre!
If a man seduces a vergin who is not engaged he has to pay a dowry to the father for her to be his wife, but the father has the option to refuse to give his daughter to the seducer. In that case, the man pays anyway, for spoiling the virgin. Exodus 22:16-17 If a man finds (overtakes) an engaged girl in the city and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, then both the man and the girl are to be stoned to death. The girl is to be punished because she didn’t screm (in the city, her screams could be heard). Deut 22: 23-24 If a man finds an engaged girl in the field, and forces her to have sex with him, then only the man is to be stoned to death, but the girl is not to be punished, because out in the field her screams could not have been heard. Deut 22:25-27
If a man finds a virgin girl who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man is to pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, marry her, and never divorce her Deut 22:25-27. This is acceptable to you. Apparently it was inconceivably that a rapist could cover the girl’s mouth or threaten to kill her immediately if she creamed, or something like that.
Cerbaz… are you reading this as literally meaning that command comes from the word of God…or are you reading it as governmental policy for the people of the day.
It would be crazy for anyone to read any governmental policy as being the word of God…
Yes I had read the bible from cover to cover before but not with asking questions. At the time this challenge was given I had a niece that was facing heart surgery at 3 months old and we were all praying. She successfully made it through surgery and is doing well as a two year old. When I came to reading about David’s baby being killed because of his sins I started to question. I went back and started reading again and many things started to seem unacceptable to me. Not sure what you mean Craig is the bible god’s word or is it not?
Cerbaz..it depends on what you mean by “God’s Word!”
If you mean that every word in the Bible was dictated by God…then I strenuously disagree with that view of the Bible.
If however you understand the bible to be written by humans, which tells the story of humanity and their experience with God and with each other.. then yes I totally agree with that viewpoint.
From there we have to work out what is the genre of the books we read. Is it history. Is it poetry. Is it prophecy. Is it governmental policy. We need to take note of who is saying what. And from there draw out what it means for us today.
Totally acceptable to me Craig. However, not acceptable to the majority of people on this site. Glad you are able to see the bible for what it really is written my men and not inspired by god.
■It’s true that the Bible never explicitly condemns slavery.
■However, in a fallen world, God can only fight so many evils at a time. Slavery was not high on his list in the days of the Old Testament. In New Testament times, God may have kept silent about the issue so as not to provoke the Romans to persecute Christians.
■God chose to combat slavery by growing mankind’s moral maturity over time. A change from within is the best and deepest way to produce changed behavior toward others. This is why many Christians were at the forefront of the abolitionist movement.
■Slavery in the Old Testament was not what we might think. It was not racial or imperialistic. Sometimes, it was more like indentured servitude. Other slaves were prisoners of war. [Some apologists justify the latter as God’s judgment on wicked, pagan nations.]
■In addition, the Old Testament regulated the treatment of slaves, proscribing excess cruelty.
■The Bible may not speak directly against slavery, but neither does it condone the practice. In fact, it gives even the slave a reason for dignity and hope.
Sounds reasonable, right?
slavery in Bible times significantly differed from slavery in modern times. It was not based on race. It was often less imperialistic. Some believe that in many cases it was actually more of an indentured servant type arrangement.”
That is true to an extent. Exodus 21:2-6 describes an arrangement by which a Hebrew could sell himself to one of his countrymen for six years, after which time he was to be set free.
However, this is not the form of slavery to which skeptics object. There are other forms of slavery in the Bible.
Infamously, the next four verses permit a man to sell his daughter as a “servant.” Let us pretend that wording about “pleasing her master” who has “selected her for himself” does not carry any overtones of sexual slavery and move on. What else is there?
Leviticus 25:44-46 states that the Israelites may buy foreign slaves. Unlike Hebrew slaves, foreign slaves were in bondage for life. Do you think it is moral to buy someone and all his descendants and treat them as property? That’s exactly what God gave his people permission to do.
Aside from the fact that these slaves had the Sabbath off and their masters were only allowed to beat and whip them severely, but not kill them, this is very close to the type of slavery we practiced in the American South. No wonder Southern slave-holders used the Bible to justify the practice! Already, we can see that it’s dishonest to claim that slavery in the Bible “significantly differed from slavery in modern times.”
But it gets worse.
10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.
Btw, let me recommend the ESV Study Bible (Crossway). Check out the History of Salvation Summary, for each Books of the Bible. And the Literary Features, in the Introduction.
Cerbaz.. your right that I don’ t think the Bible is dictated by God and is written by men.
However, that does not mean I do not think the Scriptures are inspired by God. The inspiration of God is that the Scriptures point to Christ. And Christ points back to God.
Now, while you might have problems with some of the OT records, and for that matter, so do I – those records are not central nor are they important to my faith, as my faith is soundly based on Christ.
Now.. what are we to do with him?
According to Deut 20 and 21 Israel was allowed to take women and children captive as booty from wars, so long as the women and children lived outside of the borders of the Promised land, (women and children inside those border were to be killed). Deut 21 stipulates how Isralite males are to treat any women taken captive from wars against Israel’s enemies. When you go out to war against your enemies and Yahweh you God hands them over to you and you take them captive, suppose you see among the capitives a beautiful women who you desire and want to marry, and so you bring her home to your house: she shall shaved her head, pare her nails, discard her captive’s garb, and shall remain i your house for a full month, mourning for her father and mother; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. But if you are not satisfied with her, you shall let her go free and not sell her for money. You must not treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her Deut. 21:10-14. So if an Israleite soldier killed a woman’s husband and found her attractive he was allowed to capture her, give her one month to mourn, and then force her to marry him. Sounds like human trafficking.
Cerbaz.. it does. Now here is the point to make.. is this governmental policy, or is God saying this.. there is a huge difference.
Craig majority of evangelical christians believe in the inerancy of the whole bible. Can’t just cherry pick the verses that you agree with.
Cerbaz.. again it depends on what you understand that means. Gordon Fee has written a great little book called “How to understand the Bible for all its worth.”
In it he explains the difference Genres of the Bible. How we are to understand the different genres. Then we have to work out who is saying what. To whom are they saying it. Why are they saying it.
Within the framework of Exodus / Deut etc.. we are talking about a large number of people who suddenly don’t have a governmental body over them. 200 years before they were ruled by Egypt they were but a small group of people who were self governing.
Now America states “In God We Trust!” But are all their policies godly policies. Should we dismiss God because a nation has ungodly policy?
But again I ask you,.. what do you make of Christ?
I have always believed in the inerancy of the scriptures. God breathed each word inspired so for me god and christ are one and the same. John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him: and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life: and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it. Use to believe this was the christ with god from the beginning. So if christ was with god and the bible says the word is god breathed than what?
Michael have you read this one to your daughter? If two men, a man and his countryman, are stuggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and put out her and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall show no pity. Deut 25:11-12. Yeah read Copan’s argument that she will have her groin shaved. Really that is acceptable to you?
Cerbaz.. now we are getting to the crux of God’s word and what is the meaning of God breathed. Within the framework of this, Paul is actually talking about the OT being God breathed. But, there is a point to what he is saying.. his point is that the the OT Scriptures point to Christ.
Christ is the fulfilment of God’s word. The word of God speaks of Christ, because Christ is the Word. So.. when we come to the OT which of them point to Christ?
My understanding was the sacrifice of the animals was the foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ. If he was in the beginning then he was a part of the ot. Can’t separate the two of them in my understanding
Cerbaz..
Now we are getting to the point of the difference between the Priestly function of Israel and the Government function of Israel.
The Bible is a progressive revelation, the OT to the New, “line upon line”, etc. (Isa. 28: 10). The Salvation History of God, (Gen. 3: 15), Covenant/covenants. And then of course the promised Incarnation, (Rom. 9: 4-5 ; 15: 8, etc.) Indeed Christ is both the Rhema and the Logos!
But, indeed the question: “But who do you (personally) say that I am? Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the living God.” (Matt. 16: 16-17)
Robert, it would be really good to see you engage with what is being said.. instead of just pontificating 😉
Neither of you two are dealing with the issues in the ot. That is the problem for me. I never doubted that christ was the saviour. The doubts all came from the ot and I can not accept what the ot says therefore christ being part of that is no longer acceptable. I am not discussing the new testament I am saying look at the ot and do you find this acceptable? Fine if you do however, many be leavers do not reconcile the old testament with the new. Read the blogs of those who have left christianity after many years of belief because like this girl Michael talked about can not accept the arguments from apologists that jump through hoops and say things that are not good arguments. From my understanding this was the reason for the post. WHY ARE CHRISTIANS DOUBTING AND LEAVING THE FAITH. The ot is one of the main reasons.
@Craig: Your funny mate, how is seeking to quote Holy Scripture, with a bit of historical logic, “pontificating”? I call it the truth of God’s Word! Rather simple really!
Note, as I said the ESV Study Bible! And check out a bit of both Calvin and Luther on the OT! Especially Calvin!
And btw, real Christians simply don’t leave the OT, but believe it! For it is the tutor and formation of Christ, Gal. 4: 1-7, as we see of the law in Hebrews. You might want to read the whole of Galatians too!
So Robert once save always saved. Yeah for all us unbeleavers!
George Jenkins… You asked me the kinds of questions that my daughter (who was a very vibrant Christian for many years) has asked and for which I have inadequate answers.
(I know some of you will assume that one is either always a Christian, or that one masquerades as such… i can only affirm that my daughter was for many years the most precious, most pure, most devoted student of Christ and has now fully abandoned that confession.
Some of the discussion above is just the terrain we have waded through in our house, namely the portrait of God presented in the Levitical Law. For example, This example from Leviticus 22
13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels[b] of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.
—
My daughter reads this and says it sounds like the Taliban.
I have read the new testament. Again what do you have to say about the ot.
No, I am a Calvinist, the true believer perseveres by grace unto the end! And it does appear you ain’t one!
No longer will allow me to make comments.
@Kirk: We at this point, can it appears only pray for your daughter! The Lord is the Savior and the Redeemer! But surely apostasy is also very real!
Thank you Kirk for your comment and I am sorry this has happened in your family. I have a son who is a strong believer and teaches in a christian school and I have a son who has questioned the bible. I struggled with him and came out on the same side as him. Robert I accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and saviour I prayed the sinners prayer and I led young people to the lord do not say I was never a christian. Just because I began to question my beliefs does not mean I did not believe at the time I made a conversion. You are despictable to even suggest or question what I once believed.
Ugh, it is kind of hard to have a back and forth when multiple conversations are going on all at once:)
My daughter is also concerned by those texts that mention, condemn, and dictate death for homosexuals. This is not abstract in our house. Such penalties realized today would mean the death of several people very close to us.
I have answered that the penalties for homosexuality belonged to another era, and were part of the law for National Israel and do not apply today. But my daughter then replies.. that is all well and good, but if we had lived then, would have been God’s will that we pick up stones and kill my aunt, my sister, my friend…etc. I cannot love such a God.
@Cerbaz: Again simply read in the Gospels the Parable of the Sower! It appears you fall in there somewhere? (Mk. 4: 3-25)
Cerbaz,
Half the Bible is rated R. But since my daughter is 14, I have no problem reading this to her. Lots of interesting stuff in the Law. Good thing our faith is not grounded in the “how we would like things to be” or “what we find palatable” or we may not find much warrant for belief in Christianity. It is grounded in the resurrection. If that happened, these smaller issues lose their bearings.
But this post has nothing to do with that. Lets keep it on track please.
Folks, looks like things have gone off track. Lets get it back on. All others will be deleted.
Jason, I am not sure what scar this post has caused you to pull off, but your examination of my thoughts was agglomerated irresponsibly if your goal was to understand and accurately represent me. Lots of accusations. It is probably best if you ask questions first. And, considering you nub seems to really be with Calvinism, this is not the post to bring that back up.
But please know that I am a cataphatic theologian until I find it necessary to punt to apaphatic theology (and this is not often… There are only five major issue that this applies in my theology. But, if you have ever been in my theology program you would see that I argue for Arminianism (and even pelagianism) with great force in order to disarm, instigate l, and educate my students. I may not follow the advice of this blog perfectly, but my practice here does meet my ideals more often than not.
Sometimes I feel like strict adherence to the Bible (or at least to how we interpret the Bible, because we ALWAYS interpret the Bible) is like Congress creating mandatory penalties for crime: it assumes all accused are evil, has no knowledge of the individual case, and leaves the Judge (of All) completely out of the running.
1. Condemning the original young woman, or the cherished daughter spoken of, with whatever uncharitable names or ‘theological’ judgments is highly un-Christian. Hardening of heart is condemned in both O.T. and N.T., and Jesus’ most universal message was one of God’s love for us and readiness to forgive. Forgiveness is what allows the sinner to stop self-defensively persisting in sin and despair; forgiveness cleanses us of our guilty selfcondemnation or feelings we can’t be made whole, which allows us to find true Joy in Jesus’ message and Christ’s redemption. God is a God of unlimited chances, if we only repent. People who feel they are one of the ‘elect’ can easily fall into pride and feeling superior, which has led to the bad feelings by people who knowingly have sinned which pushes them out the door, or the feelings that the self-proud ‘elect’ are a bunch of hypocrites, so the church must be as false and heartless as they are. “Christians” who withhold forgiveness (even in advance of being asked), especially when they supposedly represent God’s point of view are responsible for great evil, and lost souls.
2. All young people, especially today, have doubts as they mature; they have been given a theology for children and must be given a theology for adults, as Michael says. They still may stop going to church for a while, but that does not mean they won’t be back. (And if they find a different pastor, or denomination, they feel more at home with, Praise the Lord!) Youth is a time for testing; if their formation of character was strong, they will be moral whether or not they go to church. Sorry to go on so long, but I…
I can’t keep up with deleting all these comments guys!
I am responding to Caleb’s doubts through private email. Again, the millions of issue that we need to discuss with Christians cannot be sufficiently covered in this post. I have written about most of these so stick around on this blog and you will be doing much to fulfilling the admonishment of this post.
Kirk, I would love to talk to you about your daughter. I will email you.
For all: no more or I will use the underused blacklist thingy ma jig on this blog.
… read ALL the posts, some of which broke my heart.
If we look at others with God’s magnanimous view (like you would look on your two-year-old’s mistakes), we might start getting the picture of God’s forgiveness.
I agree leaving Christianity is one of the hardest things I have every done. I cried when I first read this post about this girl because I know the pain and heart break she has gone through. Despite that my questions and doubts have not been answered.