I sat down with a young lady not too long ago and had a conversation. This was a conversation about faith—her faith. Better put, this was a conversation about a faith that once was and is no more. She was a very interesting and bright lady—inquisitive, well-read, and very suspicious. She began by telling me that she had been a Christian, but had since left the faith. Christ was once a part of her confession. However, after a long voyage of not finding sufficient answers for her doubts, she came to the conclusion that she believes she has had no choice but to follow her own integrity and renounce Christ all together. That said, when I asked her to share with me what her particular problems were, she became very emotional. It was just as if I represented Christianity, and she was ready to take all of it out on me.
Ignorance. Pity. Shame. These are all word descriptions she associated with Christianity. However, through these superficial word descriptions, it was evident that the best root word to describe her feelings was “betrayal”. She had been betrayed by the Church, because they duped her into a belief not unlike that of the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. When she discovered this “betrayal,” no one could provide a valid answer or excuse. So she left. She is now an unbeliever—a soon-to-be evangelistic unbeliever no doubt. I discussed the issue with her for quite a while. However, she seemed to have come to the point in this process that she was no longer open to counsel, no matter what I said.
As many of you know, a part of my ministry is dealing with people who doubt their faith just like this young lady. I possess well over a dozen books containing a plethora of autobiographical sketches of people who once proclaimed to be Christians. Yet, these same individuals are now professing evangelistic atheism, agnosticism, or skepticism. They are “evangelistic” in that their avowed goal is to convert, or rather “unconvert”, others to their world view system of unbelief. I have received e-mails, phone calls, and personal visits from numerous people who have either already, or are on the verge of leaving the Christian faith. On a positive note, may I say that many of those individuals have been restored to a faith in Christ.
Leaving Christianity is one of the most serious issues facing the Church today. Right under our noses, an epidemic is confronting Christianity— the “disease” of unbelief spreading among our very own. The ironic fact is that there is a great assembly of people in our churches who are somewhere in the process of leaving. No, I am not talking about them leaving one denomination, only to join another Christian group. I am not talking about abandoning some institutionalized notion of Christianity. I am not even talking about the explicit renunciation of their expressed beliefs. I am talking about those who are leaving Christ. (And this is coming from a Calvinist who does not believe that those who are truly elect will ever leave).
Over 31 million Americans are saying “check please” to the church, and are off to find answers elsewhere. Jeff Schadt, coordinator of Youth Transition Network, says thousands of youth fall away from the church when transitioning from high school to college. He and other youth leaders estimate that 65 to 94 percent of high school students stop attending church after graduating. From my studies and experience I find that leaving the church is, on many occasions, the first visible step in one’s pilgrimage away from Christ.
There are so many complicated reasons why people “leave Christ” and I don’t propose to do justice to them here. However, I do want to discuss the observations I have made of the steps that people take in leaving Christianity.
Step One: Doubt
This is the case when a person begins to examine his or her faith more critically by asking questions, expressing concerns, and becoming transparent with their doubt. One normally finds this step coming from teenagers, or those in the process of transitioning from adolescence to their teen years. However, this step frequently applies to individuals included in demographics that reach much farther out than the teen years. This step of doubt is not wholesale, but expresses an inner longing to have questions answered and the intellect satisfied, at least to some degree. Normally, a person experiencing this step will seek out mentors in the faith, someone he respects who will listen to his “doubt.”
While there are several diverse reasons that are responsible for the initiation of this doubt, three primary causes stand out:
Maturation: Much of the time, the cause is purely reflective of one’s age progression, a phase in life we like to call “simple maturation.” As people grow older, they begin to ask more serious questions about their beliefs (and their parents’ beliefs as well). During this stage of life, intellectual maturation, or at least what we perceive to be such, becomes a stronger motivator in our life. We begin to grow in our critical thinking, and discernment skills grow stronger.
Intellectual challenges: Often, the doubt comes from intellectual challenges in the form of questions. “Is the Bible truly reliable?” “Does science demonstrate that there is no proof of God?” “Why do I even need to believe in God?”
Experiential challenges: These types of challenges come from God’s actions (or lack thereof) in our lives. This is exemplified through prayers that don’t get answered, the apparent silence of God in a person’s experience, or a tragedy from which the doubter or someone else was not rescued. These experiential challenges can be catalysts which ignite intellectual challenges.
Any one of these (or all three together) can fire the starting gun on the voyage away from Christianity.
Step Two: Discouragement
This follows doubt, as a person becomes frustrated because he is not finding the answers to his questions. The answers (or lack thereof) cause his discouragement. He becomes further discouraged because he has little or no hope that acceptable answers to his questions will ever be found. His church tells him that merely raising said questions is “unchristian.” A Sunday school teacher may offer an ambivalent response such as, “I don’t know. You just have to believe.” Another might simply say, “That’s a good question, I have never thought of that before. . .” and then proceed on their own way, their own leap-of-faith journey, totally oblivious, just as if the question had never been asked.
These experiences cause obvious and great discouragement in the life of the beginning doubter, who sees his questions and concerns as legitimate, and they deserve to be answered. “Are others scared of these questions? If so, why?” are the doubter’s thoughts.
Step Three: Disillusionment
It is at this step that disillusionment sets in the mind of the doubter. He becomes disillusioned with Christianity in general and proceeds to engage in more serious doubt. He feels genuinely betrayed by those he had trusted most when he first believed. He becomes skeptical not only of what is, in his mind, an unwarranted story about Christ and the Bible, but also of the very people who encouraged and influenced him to believe such an untrustworthy myth. He is further disillusioned that the faith which he had been persuaded to believe was so saturated with naivete that not even his most trusted mentors could (or would) answer basic, elementary questions about the Bible, history, or faith. In his thinking, a person’s “legitimate” intellect was discarded out of hand, supplanted by the church becoming an “illegitimate” contender for the minds of gullible believers. Once the mind of the “Disillusioned Doubter” has been lost, the turn has been made. He may still be emotionally rooting for his former faith, but this will soon pass as his “intellect” talks him out of his emotional conviction. What a very sad place this is for the doubting “leaver,” as he realizes for the first time that he is truly leaving Christ. It is at this point that he will likely go through an indefinite period of depression, despondency, and indecisiveness.
Step Four: Apathy
At this stage in his journey away from the Christian faith, the disillusioned “former Christian” becomes apathetic to finding answers, as he is convinced that the answers don’t exist. He is treading headlong down the path of skepticism, agnosticism, or all-out atheism, but he doesn’t have the courage to admit it to himself or others. An individual in this stage frequently lives as a “closet unbeliever.” He is convinced that it is not worth the risk to come clean about his departure from the faith. He desires an uneventful and peaceful existence in his state of unbelief, without creating any controversy. This may help him to cope with the depression that his loss of faith has brought about. If he isn’t honest with himself or others about it, he won’t have to deal with it. Surely, he may continue to hand out bulletins at church, sing in the choir, show up to socials, take a mission trip here and there, and even teach a Sunday School class, but he no longer believes. He is content, for now, to stay in the closet.
However, not everyone stays in the apathy stage.
Step Five: Departure
(This is where I met the young lady I introduced to you at the beginning of this post. In actuality, she was somewhere in between apathy and departure.) At this stage in the process, the fact that one has left the faith has become real to him, and he is ready and willing to announce the fact to the world. Because of his sense of betrayal, he feels as if it is his duty to become an “evangelist of unbelief.” His goal and mission now becomes to “unconvert” the converted.
This is the stage where many former Christians, such as Bart Erhman, reside. In my opinion, Dr. Erhman is full of zeal due to his sense of betrayal. Either he feels that he has to legitimize his departure by taking with him as many as he can, or he is truly attempting to help people quit living a lie out of true concern. Either way, his emotional commitment to Christianity is gone and reversed. He is now an evangelist of unbelief.
“I don’t really even care what you have to say to me,” she told me that day. “I just don’t believe anymore and there is nothing anyone can do about it.” As I thought about this young lady, one thing kept coming to mind: How was she a part of the church for so long without the church ever engaging her on these issues? You see, the issues she confronted were numerous, but foundational. She doubted the resurrection of Christ; the inspiration, inerrancy, canon of Scripture; and the historicity of the Christian faith in general. If the church had legitimized her questions during the doubting phase and truly engaged her on an intellectual front, I can’t help but think things might have been different. But once one reaches the apathy stage, that seems to be that point of no return.
Folks, we have a lot in our job description. But rooting people theologically by presenting the intellectual viability of the Evangelical faith must be at the top of the priority list and it must come early. While I understand this is not all there is to the Christian faith, it is an absolutely vital part of discipleship and foundational to everything else.
Everyone will go through the doubt phase. Everyone should ask questions about their faith. If you have not asked the “How do you know?” questions about the message of the Gospel, this is not “a good thing.” We should be challenged to think through these questions early in our faith walk. (Taking my own advice, I am reading this to my 14-year-old daughter right now. Why? She needs to hear it.) The Church needs to rethink its educational programs. Expositional preaching, while very important, is not enough. Did you hear me? Expositional preaching is not enough. It is not the correct venue for the discipleship that is vital for us to prevent and overcome this epidemic. We should not fool ourselves into thinking that it does.
The church has been on an intellectual diet for the last century and we are suffering from theological atrophy. What else do you expect when we have replaced theological discipleship, instead prioritizing entertainment, numbers, and fast-food Christianity that can produce nothing more than a veneer of faith seasoned for departure?
The solution: We must reform our educational programs in the church. We must lay theological foundations through critical thinking. We must understand that the “Great Commission” is to make disciples, not simply converts. And most importantly, we must pray that God will grant a revival of the mind and the spirit, knowing that without the power of the Holy Spirit, no amount of intellectual persuasion can change an antagonistic heart.
Absent these solutions, the epidemic of leaving Christ will only worsen. We will (if we don’t already) have more evangelists of unbelief than we do the Gospel.
355 replies to "Leaving (Christ)ianity"
Going all the way back to #4 and “Mike Erich The Mad Theologian”, my point here (as his), since this is a “theological” blog, is “a viable intellectual basis of Christianity.” So the challenge is also here for “Cerbaz”/Margaret! And SHE was the one who came out quite against God’s Word in the beginning! Again, note I quoted the Parable of the Sower, and not so much Calvin! Though of course Calvin and generally proper “Calvinism” take this Parable most central in the Gospel and the Word of God! But as mbaker, “Christ Jesus” is always the centre of the Gospel and the Word of God! Who is Himself, both the “Logos” and the “Rhema” of God! Yes, again this is also a “theological” place and study, and here biblically has been my challenge with Calvin and I hope the best of “Calvinism”. So again, let the “Truth” begin and reign!
Btw, again, note I recommended Bruce Gordon’s grand bio: ‘Calvin’, (Yale University Press, 2009). Even The Methodist Recorder wrote: ‘An illuminating and engaging life of Calvin. . . A complex and persuasive picture of Calvin emerges in the pages . . . of this excellent biography, beautifully produced.’
Greg,
I hold absolutely no hostility toward you. I believe this conversation just gets unneccesarily heated sometimes and wanders off the subject of this thread, which is about why folks leave Christianity.
I believe i’ve expressed to Cerbaz/Margaret several times my desire for her to be able to come to a deep and rewarding relationship with Christ, where she will feel loved and protected by Him. I can only speak from my own heart some of the things that were spoken to me when I was so discouraged, and about to give up.
Robert a quote from Calvin fromhis Institutes
To sum up, since God’s will is said to be the cause of all things, I have made his providence the determinative principle for all human plans and works, not only in order to display its force in the elect, who are ruled by the Holy Spirit, but also to compel the reprobate to obedience.
So according to this God ordained those who would be the elct and those who wouldn’t. Not sure how the parable fits into this And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”
(Mark 4:13-20 ESV)
@Margaret: I hope that you just keep reading and studying John Calvin, indeed no easy ride for sure. But without doubt one of the foremost theolog’s the church has seen! And I hope you might check out that Gordon bio of Calvin? YOU have entered the big leagues theologically when you read and take on Calvin! I have been reading Calvin myself for close to 40 years!
Could you answer my question about the parable?
I am not sure really what your question actually is? But in the end the Parable teaches that only those that receive the Word on “good soil” (regenerate & renewed) hearts, “are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, etc.” (Mk. 4: 20) Note NONE of the other “soils” (hearts) are really saved and bear fruit! This is really the essence of the Parable, and we must not get lost in the details of the other soils that don’t bear fruit, simply.
See too the Text of Mark 4: 10-12, with 4: 25! Note again, “for those outside” (verse 11), who will simply never see or perceive, indeed here are the non-elect! To those who will never come to Christ, and those who only deceive themselves, thinking they have, but never really have.. (Matt. 7: 21-23…”I never knew you, depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.”) Looking back also on Matt. 7: 13-14, with verses 15-20.
And btw, the Infralapsarian position (which I hold myself), is the theological position that God’s decree to save “follows” logically (not temporarily) the decision to create and permit the fall. Of course Infralapsarian is God’s plan of salvation for “some” people followed and was a consequence of the fall of man from grace.
And most surely the true “Elect” of God are most certainly not all so-called Calvinists! I know many Roman Catholics that I feel are truly regenerate and know and love God In Christ! As too those of other historical places in the so-called Body of Christ. The true Christian is simply elect ‘In Christ’…and, “When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I have become a man (an adult), I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” (1 Cor. 13: 11-13)
Concerning the theology of John Calvin, Calvin considers that the Old Testament and the New Testament form in the strictest sense one single testimony to Christ. All the truths which Calvin expounds in his theology have thus but one end – to make intelligible to us the revelation of God In Jesus Christ! But one thing is also certain God In Christ, always says “Yes” to the sinner! And for Calvin this is seen always in the One Who is always God and Man, or as the ancient church: Jesus Christ is “true God and true man”. Here is The Mediator!
“To be sure, all would have been hopelessly lost if the divine Majesty had not condescended to come down to us, seeing that we are not in a position to reach upwards to it.” (Inst. II, 12, 1)
Nice, the Westminster Confession, here is the last few..Of the State of Man After Death, and the Last Judgment….
Of the State of Man After Death,
and of the Resurrection of the Dead.
I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. Besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed: and all the dead shall be raised up with the self-same bodies, and none other, although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever.
III. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor; the bodies of the just, by his Spirit, unto honor, and be made conformable to his own glorious body.
CHAPTER XXXIII.
Of the Last Judgment.
I. God hath appointed a day, wherein he will judge the world in righteousness by Jesus Christ, to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father. In which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons, that have lived upon earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.
II. The end of God’s appointing this day, is for the manifestation of the glory of his mercy in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of his justice in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then…
http://tomorrowsreflection.com/god-possible/
There are indeed different views on the sovereignty of God within Christianity. This is another.
Indeed Open Theism “itself”, is a rather new human libertarian position, see also Molinism (the Roman Catholic, Luis de Molina). See John Frame’s book: No Other God, A Response To Open Theism. Roger Nicole (RIP) could write of Frame’s book: ‘A devastating critique of the concept of human freedom as articulated in the ‘open theistic’ view’.
Father,
I expected nothing less in way of response from you. However, there might be others with an open mind reading a blog with the name “Reclaiming The Mind” that might find a different view interesting and worth looking into.
– Leo
@Leo: I have not always been a “Reformed” Anglican in my theological life and mind, but yes I am a convinced Reformed Anglican surely now (say over 20 years, perhaps 25?). Note I have been a Christian over 40 years, not counting my being raised Irish Roman Catholic. And I could perhaps teach the basics of Open Theism myself, at least in a classroom like setting.. having read much of Clark Pinnock over the years. So I always have an “active” theological mind! And as I have said here too, I have been around the EO theologically for many years too. But again, yes surely I am more like our brother Greg, and Michael, a very “certain” Calvinist! 😉
I prayed standing up, I prayed kneeling, I prayed pacing, I prayed doing sit-ups. I prayed every way I knew, with every word I knew. I prayed for words to explain what I was praying for. Eventually I would sleep for a few hours. The next day I would capture a few moments of reading at work, read at night, lie down exhausted, and at 2 a.m. my eyes would open. For a few nights, I tossed and turned to go back to sleep, but soon gave that up. Once 2 a.m. rolled around, I might as well get up.
I literally reached a point where I said I did not know what else to say. I just sat there. Not thinking. Not forming prayers. Wondering what was to become of me. God had his timing. God knew what I needed. I did not want to rush him.
I thought of quitting the research entirely. I would assume the claim of being a “theist” and dare not think any further. I would be afraid to move forward. Afraid to move back. Live in a perpetual half-belief of “God” and nothing more. But that gave legitimacy to the questions. That would mean I was afraid of looking for what was true. Even if no one else knew, I would know—by being afraid to ask myself the question, I was conceding I was terrified of the answer.
…
I was about to become the terrible monster—a man without God. The concept of a creature that my entire youth, and much of my adult years had pounded and nailed and riveted as being hopeless, moralless, and miserable. I recognized that I had too much knowledge to hold onto God, and that I was going to become wretched.
It comes as no surprise; this threw me into despair. No one could look forward to this existence of dredging through a reality I hated. It was receiving a terrible disease, for which there is no cure, yet I would have to live out my life in pain.
One morning, I looked in the mirror and said, “O.K., I cannot live like this. I am going to say it. ‘I do not believe there is a God.’” (Yes, I half-expected a lightening bolt to come right out of the electrical…
This was something that someone else wrote and this described me!
Cerbaz/Margaret
Where are you now on that?
@Cerbaz/Margaret: Do you have a pastoral person and or a spiritual director in your life? It surely sounds like you need one! Of course it must be someone you know and respect to some degree. And in my opinion, the blog is not fully part of that forum. The best pastoral is always face to face, and if I can say in some way, “hands on”!…Of course I speak spiritually. (Note, Matt. 18: 19-20)
And btw, in my wee opinion, its appears (note appears) that you must find and fall in love with “Jesus the Christ” all over again!
And btw, if you read Christian books, let me recommend, A.W. Tozer’s book: The Knowledge of the Holy! (Only about 120 pages, but a sweet read!)
Cerbaz/Margaret,
I had a feeling there was a lot more to this than an objection to Calvinism, so I am glad you shared this. Fr. Robert and I don’t agree on some things but we do agree that it would be helpful to seek one on one counseling from a local pastor who gets both our need to know Christ is there for us, and loves us, and can point us in the right direction as far as getting to know the truth of the Bible.
I’ll be the first one to admit I haven’t always seen the purpose of God in my life during bad times. However, don’t be discouraged, because your emotions may be telling you He doesn’t care right now. But that isn’t true. I think we all have been there, and done that at some point.
God bless, and if I can help please let me know.
I made this comment (slightly tweaked) on Roger Olsans blog about Barth and I think its worth submitting here..
Scripture clearly saying that all humanity have sinned, therefore the wages of sin is death and therefore all are ‘elected’ to die. However, the gift of God is eternal life. And through Christ the elect, its God’s will that non will perish. For its in, through and over Christ, that God reconciles all mankind to himself.. however not all accept God’s election to life… and therefore they by default continue to be amongst those elected to die
The charge and weakness against Barth’s theology will always be his Universalism!
Btw, just a very sober Text, I quote: “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which you have given Me, and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” (John 17: 12) The Hebrew idiom here means one destined to perish. Of course this is Judas! Jesus said in Mk. 14: 21.. “It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.”
“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with YOU,(the elect) not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3: 9)
“His promise” cannot be left undone, and “the elect” alone will not perish, but come to repentance! The theological logic is maintained in God’s promise to redeem HIS people!
Btw, Barth was brilliant, but sometimes “brilliantly” wrong! 😉
Cerbaz/Margaret,
I am concerned about you. How are you doing? Please don’t let this Calvinism/Arminian thing keep you away from knowing Christ. That would be such a shame against all christians, and we will certainly have to answer that before the Lord.
Margaret Baker thank you for checking in. I followed Robert’s and your adviced and called my pastor. He said as a church we do not believe in any of the isms! calvinism or arminianisms. He asked me to share my testimony of when I had accepted Christ and asked me why did you pray this prayer? I shared with him my reasons and he asked so what did that mean to you? As we talked he asked me if I could accept the mysteries of God that can not be explained without jumping through hoops. I said I am trying and he prayed for me. I am seeing him again next week with my questions about christianity. He has asked that I come with my questions in order of most importance. He said it is okay to doubt and it does not mean I am no longer a believer. He said he would be praying that the Holy Spirit would lead him with his answers. Again thank you for your prayers, concerns, and christian love.
This is a belief statement for our church.Don,t really care Robert if you agree or not or youGreg. This is for M Baker.The Lordship of Jesus Christ
We believe that Jesus Christ is Lord. Salvation consists of this fundamental and profound affirmation in heart and mouth. To believe and say that Jesus is Lord is to affirm that God in Christ took upon Himself human nature. True faith is impossible apart from the work of the Spirit of God with the Word of God. Born of a virgin, the Word became flesh. Jesus Christ taught us and worked great miracles, and then he died on the cross to atone for the sins of all humanity. He then arose from the dead on the third day, ascended to the right hand of the Father, and will one day return to judge the living and the dead. As our Lord, He saves us now through faith in Him. As our Lord, He has the right to command us and we have the responsibility to obey Him entirely and according to His order. As our Lord, He preserves us as we carry the cross He has given us through this world. As our Lord, he reigns over us even through death itself and brings us victoriously into eternal life with Him. We come to God the Father through God the Son in God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is Lord!
2. Biblical Proclamation
We believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the Bible, including every word in the entire canon of the Old and New Testaments. As a result of divine inspiration, the Bible is the Word of God and is without error and sufficient for every aspect of the Christian life, from regeneration to proclamation. The Word of God is living and active and will accomplish that for which the Lord sent it. As a preacher proclaims the Word of God, the Spirit opens the ears of the hearer to listen and perceive the Word. The preacher of the Word has been chosen as a necessary instrument by God to proclaim His Word and that Word may not be separated from Scripture; therefore, the Christian minister’s powerful task is to proclaim the Bible in its depth and its…
Cerbaz/Margaret,
Thank you for the wonderful update. I am so glad that you are talking to your pastor. Your church sounds like it’s built on solid biblical principles. Just keep on holding on until you understand the Word became flesh. John 1:1-14 is one of my favorites passages that talks about that. It says about Christ that He was full of grace and truth. I pray he shower His grace upon you and lead you to His truth.
Please keep in touch.
Blessings to you.
I too am happy for Ms. Carbez/Margaret, sounds like she is applying and proving 2 Cor. 13: 5, “Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you -unless indeed you fail the test? (Are found unapproved)”… and this really is between you and the Lord!
And btw, I too have this test! And I must look to scriptures like 1 Tim. chapter 4, especially verses 11-16! (But note the whole chapter)
And btw, God would have us “His” Christians to know “the assurance of our salvation”! In repentance & faith, and Christian works, (Eph. 2:8-10). But always thankfully these are all wrought (done) in/with and by God In Christ! 🙂
Margaret,
From my point of view the statement of faith from your church is right on. Base your belief and questions on what is presented there, after searching the scriptures to see that is so and in your own mind you agree with it.
There has been a lot of writing here about the philosophy of Calvinism and to my mind there have been attempts to add to what the scriptures say. It may give you some comfort to know that the same Calvin who promulgated this philosopy also supported the execution of Anabaptists in Lake Geneva for no other reason than that they rejected infant baptism. He also persecuted other believers. So consider the source and do not be overly concerned with Calvin or his philosopy. An elder in my church once told me that free will and predestination were two parallel lines that meet in eternity. Works for me. God will choose the best way, but in the end some will reject Him.
God loves you and working out your own salvation is the key to contentment and peace with Him. After that you can then worship Him fully and tell others what a great God you have. Work out your own salvation, then God will show you how to deal with others. It is not our duty, obligation, or purpose to wonder about who is elect. Our job is to witness to everyone. Their response to the word is their concern.
May God bless you with peace and wisdom and give you a great sense of His love.
I am doing my hospital rounds this St. Pat’s day morning, so this will be quick, but before to touch some real history about Calvin and the Anabaptists, we must note that ‘do parallel line’s meet in infinity?’ This is a mathematical supposition, and not theology.
Now concerning Calvin and the Anabaptists, John Calvin was not involved in killing them, this is a big myth. He in fact married a former Anabaptist. But yes, he was involved in the death of the unrepentant Servetus, who was himself a Spaniard, and the Roman Catholic Church was seeking to kill him also. Calvin sought to have Servetus killed quickly, and not burnt, but the Genevan leadership would have none of it. Sadly, this was the religious nature of the 16th century generally.
In closing the difference between Anabaptists and Libertines must be noted in the study and history of Calvin. But he was always a real polemicist against both! We should note here too that Menno Simons held to a Valentinian (Gnostic) position about the flesh and humanity of Christ, thus no real proper Incarnation!
Here’s a better history of Calvin at his first call to Geneva, (1536-1538)…
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/8_ch10.htm
Robert,
If you are going to critique then you really should critique what is written, not something you have constructed. I can find no where that anyone said that Calvin was “involved in killing them”. I wrote, “It may give you some comfort to know that the same Calvin who promulgated this philosopy also supported the execution of Anabaptists in Lake Geneva for no other reason than that they rejected infant baptism.” There is no doubt that Calvin supported the drowning of Anabaptists, conversely there is not even the hint that he tried to stop it. He considered Anabaptists threats to the advancement of Christianity and the maintenance of the proper social order.
Coming from two denominations that both took part in the murder of Anabaptists it should not be surprisig that you try to justify Calvin’s actions in the death of Servetus with “Calvin sought to have Servetus killed quickly, and not burnt,…”. and the observation “the Roman Catholic Church was seeking to kill him also” WOW!! Good for old John.
Greg,
Please get this. Your statement “George you’re not gonna like this, but as I say, “Reformed theology, meaning the gospel, does not rise or fall with John Calvin.” ” and the rest of what follows is of no concern for me whatsoever. I could not care less when the reformation started or ended. I would have stood with those who believd the “reformers” chickened out before they reached the proper end of the changes they should have instituted to bring Christianity to the place described in the Bible. My family was driven out of Wales in the early 1700’s for such beliefs.
Let’s face it. There is little difference between Anglicans and the Church of Rome. One would really not expect there to be given the origin of the former.
And old Henry, saw that both Protestants and Roman Catholics were his enemy. In one history book I read recently it described Henry as sort of an equal opportunity guy. There were three Roman Catholics and three Protestants in the same cart on their way to the gallows.
As for your designation for Robert, I prefer the admonition given in Matthew 23:9.
@George: I did not try to justify Calvin at all in the killing of Servetus, it was what it was, and is, moral failure and the lack of the Christian spirit certainly. But again it was the 16th century. And you don’t have one piece of history to support the idea that Calvin wanted to drown and murder the Anabaptists! But, yes it is historically-biblically-theologically true, that Calvin believed the Anabaptists to be threats to true Christianity, especially the so-called “Libertines”. But, it is you that must quote better history! My quote on Calvin’s early history at Geneva was from the Christian theologian and historian, Philip Schaff. His historical work and merit stands on its own! I have read myself some Anabaptist and Mennonite history, and I have found it wanting historically, in some places, most especially on Calvin! One thing is certain, the theological polemics of the 16th century were harsh! But I do like the old (20th century) Mennonite scripture scholar, D. Edmond Hiebert (RIP), who was ordained with the Mennonite Brethren Church. I have several of his NT Books, printed by Moody Press.
Btw, I am an Anglican Reformed, and not a Presbyterian, but yes, I was raised Irish Roman Catholic. Sadly the shape today of many of the Amish and Anabaptist groups is all to real! Indeed proper biblical theology really does matter! But yes, we all need to walk softly here as ‘In Christ’!
@George: Keep reading mate, I hope with a more open mind, and in the “Spirit/spirit” of Christ! 😉
Just a note, but I am a conservative, evangelical-reformed Anglican presbyter (note the Irish Articles 1615, Archbishop James Ussher). And see 1 Cor. 4: 15, “father” is just another pastoral moniker, I can take it or leave it!
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds3.iv.xiv.html
(The Irish Articles 1615)
It is no coincidence that an article about “leaving Christianity” filled with Doubt, Discouragement, Disillusionment, Apathy and finally Departure is filled with discussion of Calvinism and the logical (inevitable) outcome of Reformed theology in general and 5 point Calvinism in particular.
Beyond the “Horrible Decree” (Double reprobation), Supralapsarianism (Ordaining the fall and damnation of the non-elect before he created man) and limiting Christ’s atonement to the elect (Contrary to dozens of scripture).
The sure fire way to cause the Doubt resulting in Departure is the Perseverance of the saints. (NOT PREservation as in eternal security- which is biblical).
To front load the Gospel with lordship salvation baggage such as “turn from all your sins”, “Make Christ Lord”, “Surrender your life” etc. is a sure way to make EVERY PERSON Doubt and be discouraged because no one can do those things completely and ergo, they doubt their eternal destiny.
Then after front loading the Gospel with unbiblical phrases and clichés prior to salvation, they now backload the Gospel and say “Unless you persevere in good works and avoid certain sins for a certain length of time, then you prove you are not one of God’s elect.”
Thus robbing EVERY SAINT OF GOD of assurance and hope. For NO ONE knows they will persevere in good works and avoid certain sins . (Which ones and for how long are never clearly iterated…. Usually they are listed as ones that other people are committing).
What is a sure way to cause people to leave Christ and become discouraged , doubt and depart from from the faith ? A steady diet of Reformed Theology focusing on 5-point TULIP Calvinism.
Nice quote Greg! And, I agree most non-Reformed Christians are but reacting to what they really don’t know or understand, but give what has become the standard “verbiage” of the ignorant, to the great doctrine and teaching of the God’s sovereign, providential nature and character! It is indeed the great beauty of God!
Jeff,
Thank you for this post. As i have stated I am not one of the either or ones, as Cerbaz/Margaret has stated, or as they call her Margaret 2.0.
A P. S My name is Margaret too in case you haven’t been keeping up with this entire rather long string of comments. Like her, I just do not understand the emphasis on Calvinism to the point that it is making folks doubt that they are saved. Like you, I believe the main emphasis should be on Christ. I haven’t seen that here, so I understand her doubts.
Like her church, mine has never even mentioned either either Calvinism or Armianism as being essential to salvation, or to the Christian life.
Unfortunately that seems to have to be what some folks on this thread are pushing, and I can see why that has turned her off. As a long time Christian it does me too.
Wow, talk about “front-loading” the so-called Gospel and ignorance of “Calvinism”! Such is #13! Very sad!
I wonder if the writer knows what the “kerygma” (message) of the Gospel really is? I mean just what is the essence of the Gospel, but the Person & Work of Christ! And always here GOD is sovereign in HIS Gospel Kerygma!
2 Thess. 2: 13-14…
“But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (NKJV)
You are so right Jeff Ayers!
You are so right Margaret Baker I am going to ask Michael for your email address and I will let you know how I am doing. I am unsubscrbing from this so I no longer read the comments of arrogant christians who think they have to always have the last word and correct others.
Fr. Robert,
I think even the most uneducated among us get that the gospel is about God’s saving grace. Calvinism does not have a monopoly on that.
@mbaker: This is about GOD’s sovereignty & grace, something that John Calvin surely grappled with, profoundly! And indeed, this is our blessing who thank God for such glory in the face of Christ! (2 Cor. 4: 6) Again, this is not really about Calvin per se, but GOD’s sovereignty ‘In Christ’!
I hope and pray that our friend Ms Margaret/Cerbaz comes to see that glory! But surely, the battle is always in the Word!
Fr Robert.
You said:
“Again, this is not really about Calvin per se, but GOD’s sovereignty ‘In Christ’
Hope you mean that, because so far on this thread, at least ,as it seems to me,t hat you have come across as being a Reformed Calvinist first, is the most important. I agree with you that good theology is important, but it does not save., unless we count Christ’s theology first saying that Herwill save ALL who believe.
@mbaker: I am always a/the theological student and disciple of Christ, the two are really intertwined as of God In Christ! And proper doctrine (teaching) and theology of Christ do include the Salvation History and Covenant of God, both OT to the New! And here too, we have and see our doctrine of God triune: “For through Him (Christ) we both (Jew & Gentile) have access by one Spirit to the Father.” (Eph. 2: 18) Here is our Salvation: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.” (2 Cor. 13: 14)
Fr. Robert,
Then we shall all have to fervently pray for our sister Cerbaz/ Margaret that the grace of God will be with her and that He leads her to the right answers.
I have been praying for her already, that she truly see the great grace and glory of God in the face of Christ! God is the Savior. When we meet God In Christ, we are never the same! We can see this change in the life and ministry of St. Paul, (1 Tim. 1: 14-15-16).
Glory to God for His Grace!