First, some fun:
- What is an Evangelical? A nice fundamentalist.
- How do you tell the difference between an Evangelical and a Fundamentalist? Ask them if they like Billy Graham. If they do, they are Evangelical. If they don’t, they are Fundamentalist (Fundamentalists believe he has compromised).
- Finally . . . How do you tell the difference between an Evangelical and a Fundamentalist? Ask if Roman Catholics are going to heaven. If they say “no,” they are Fundamentalists. If they say “maybe,” they are Evangelical.
Are Roman Catholics Saved? Short answer: I don’t know. However, don’t read to much into that. I don’t know if Protestants are Christian. I don’t know if many who go to my evangelical church are Christian. By “Christian” I mean someone who has truly been regenerated by God and is, as a result, a genuine disciple of Christ.
Of course, a better question that people are getting at is this: Do I believe that someone who is a committed member of the Roman Catholic Church can be a true Christian? To this I answer “yes.” Now, to be fair, I do not feel that the majority of Roman Catholics with whom I have come in contact are true believers. But, to be fairer, I don’t believe that the majority of Protestants (and Eastern Orthodox for that matter) with whom I have come in contact are true believers either! It is the problem of nominalism. Simply confessing to be a part of any Christian tradition does not mean that one truly embraces the ideals of said tradition. Christians are those who truly believe in who Christ is and do their best to follow him.
I think the most important question that has ever been asked in the history of the world is, “Who do you say that I am?” (Matt. 16:15). The confession of Roman Catholicism, along with that of Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy, has been united concerning this for two thousand years: “Jesus Christ is the God-Man who died for our sins and rose from the grave.” Getting that right is no small thing. In fact, I would say that to have a true belief in such a creed requires the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Roman Catholicism is to be commended, in my opinion, for being an ardent defender of the Trinity, the resurrection of Christ, and the necessity of belief in such. Though there are many passages I could turn to, I think 1 John 4:2 says more than we often give it credit for. In fact, I would say that this is one of the most neglected passages which could be used to defend the deity of Christ. Notice:
1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
Without getting too much into this (as it deserves its own blog post!), this passage teaches that a true belief that Christ is man and God is an indication that someone is “from God.” You may say that it only talks about his humanity (“in the flesh”) and not his deity. But I believe that implied within this is an assumption of Christ’s deity. Why? Because there would be no reason to deny that Christ had come in the flesh were it not assumed that he was God. I mean, how hard is it to deny that someone has come “in the flesh”, if they were only thought of as being human? It is a foregone conclusion that they have “come in the flesh”! This passage makes no sense, unless it is assumed that a person believes that Christ is God. But the point that I want to make right now is that it is a big deal to believe in the humanity and deity of Christ. Think about how rare this really is outside of Christianity. Obviously, atheists do not confess this, but what about Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Hindus, and agnostics? They don’t have as an essential core to their confession (to say the least) that Christ is the God-man. The best of Catholics do. The best of Protestants do. The best of Eastern Orthodox do. It is because of this that I don’t easily dismiss Roman Catholics’ status before God. They get the “Who do you say that I am?” question right.
Not only this, but Catholics believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that we are sinners in need of grace. Even though they lean toward inclusivism since Vatican II, they still believe that there is no other name by which we must be saved. Again, this is significant stuff which, if truly believed, I don’t see how an unregenerate person can confess without salvific implications. All of this can be said about Eastern Orthodoxy as well.
Having said all of this, I am sure that many of my Protestant brothers and sisters are getting hot under the collar right now. I understand. Many of you are saying, “What about their worship of Mary?” “What about their acceptance of Purgatory?” “What about the Apocrypha?” “What about the Pope?” And, most importantly, “What about their denial of justification by faith alone?”
All of these are good questions and significant differences (some more so than others). I don’t want to undermine the importance of doctrine by saying that Roman Catholics can be saved. I hope you don’t see me doing this (though some will inevitably think I am). I am simply saying that the most central question in Christianity is, “Who do you say that I am?”, and they get this right.
So the question becomes, “How can someone believe and confess that their works contribute to their salvation and be saved?” (as Roman Catholics do). My answer is this: perfect doctrine does not save anyone. Sufficient doctrine is an indication that someone is saved. I believe deeply that justification is by faith alone (sola fide). However, I don’t think that justification comes through a belief in justification by faith alone. Put it this way: Heaven will not be inhabited by anyone who contributed to their justification. Some will get to heaven and they will find out how radical grace really was. In fact, I think all Christians will be overwhelmed by grace. The sanctification process, in some ways, can be summed up as this: the progressive realization that grace (undeserved and unmerited favor) is our only hope. I don’t think any of us really grasp this. Therefore, both Protestants and Roman Catholics will stand before God with a greater realization and confidence that our works had nothing to do with our present state of eternal blessedness. Roman Catholics will have a bigger learning curve than Protestants, in my opinion, but both of us will be overwhelmed by what grace really is. Most Roman Catholics will have a sudden realization that it truly was their faith in Christ alone that justified (Eph. 2:8-9).
So, where does that leave us? Does this mean that the doctrine of justification by faith alone is not important? Most definitely not. Paul exhorted the Galatians (who were justified, yet were replacing grace with the burden of law and works) not to “get saved,” but to live out the benefits of their salvation. The degree to which we are preaching justification without works is the degree to which we are preaching the grace of God. So we continue, as Paul did, to encourage people to take the burden off their backs…it is not ours to carry. I encourage Roman Catholics to do the same: realize how crazy, insane, radical, and beyond belief grace really is.
Protestantism is not perfect by any means. I believe we have a “fuller” Gospel understanding than Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (otherwise, I would not be Protestant!), but this does not mean we have a perfect understanding of the Gospel. However, we need to continue to spread the message of the Gospel that grace is only realized once we see that it is completely undeserved.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
192 replies to "Are Roman Catholics Saved?"
@Sparki: I was, as I mentioned born, baptised and raised Irish Roman Catholic in Dublin Ireland, in the 50’s and early 60’s. And I am thankful overall for it, but in those days just before Vatican II, (started in 1962), there was plenty of Catholic works righteousness going around! Not always a bad thing, but certainly not always good either! In those days the RCC taught faith & works!
Augustine : “We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place” (On the Care That Should be Taken for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421]).
And I gently disagree that this is “another debate”. Seems to me that these discussions ALWAYS come down to differing interpretations of the Sciptures. It always comes back to sola scriptura.
Indeed some places of the American Reformed simply stink! I am friendly with the FV (Federal Vision), and man I get hell for it too! Man or humanity is such a sinful mess, without God’s grace we would all be done for! 😉
I was a Roman Catholic for two years after I got saved, yet I didn’t worship Mary during those two years, nor even venerate her in any special way anymore, like I had done before I got saved. Eventually, the conflicts I saw between RCC doctrine and biblical Christianity led me away from the RCC. This doesn’t change the fact that I was saved and a Catholic at the same time. Other RCC may be saved, but haven’t yet come to the point of seeing the conflicts so clearly, or perhaps are decided to live with conflict between what they believe and what their community believes or practices. Fair enough.
Mr. Taylor, a prophet can know a person’s heart when God enables him to do so without making him omniscient. Please see 2 Sam 12. Just as God can enable a prophet to have a limited knowledge about a person’s heart, so God can enable a saint in heaven to have a limited knowledge about a person’s heart. I can indeed differentiate between the two, and the Bible backs me up.
You said: “Lord Jesus I am sorry for my sins. Please forgive me…….That isn’t worshiping the Lord Jesus? Are you serious?”
Yes, sir, very serious. I can understand how you might have missed this if you go to one of many evangelical churches that don’t teach what actual worship is. They fill their so-called “worship” services with songs that are focused on themselves (“I’ll Fly Away” — great song, but nothing about Jesus in it. It’s totally about the person singing it), with only a few songs that are actually directed to Christ (“Lord, I Lift Your Name On High” or “I know that My Redeemer Lives” or many other excellent songs).
When you are praying, “Jesus, I adore You…Jesus, I give my all to You,” and other similar statements, that’s worship because you are focused on Him without any thought of yourself. When you are praying, “Jesus, help me” or “Jesus, I need X” or “Jesus, I am sorry,” you are focused on yourself, so it can’t be worship. Worship is always about Him. At least it should be. So, all worship is prayer but not all prayer is worship. The prayers we say to…
Fr. Robert, I have repeatedly stated that Catholics believe that Jesus is the only Mediator and that nobody shares in that role. So I think you must be directing your statements to somebody else’s post(s). I hope you can figure out who you are trying to connect with.
You are very right that the issue does always come to ultimate authority. I wish that we could all be more comfortable with our own smallness and fallibility. Protestants fallibly interpret the Bible. Catholics fallibly interpret the Church. We all ultimately end up in the same place. The solution for me is to look at what is clearly taught in the Bible (and there are many things) and to the regula fide of the church. It is a fairly safe and comfortable venture so long as people don’t lean too heavily on their own interpretation or too heavily on the church. God likes some tension in our lives. Solving it by punting to the church or a burning in the bosom is easy, but, in my opinion, less than the best.
@Pete: Indeed sola Scriptura is a “fault-line” for sure, but a very important one! I can myself not get around it! Check out Luther’s statements here, he simply had learned he could not trust (fully) the historic Church Catholic! And he actually loved the Church Catholic, see The Schmalkald Articles sometime! I love the true Church Catholic myself, but it is always a Pilgrim Church in this life and world!
To KG: The Catholic Church most certainly teaches that salvation comes by grace through faith in Christ alone, just like the Bible. Here it is from the Catechism:
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life
Furthermore:
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. ***We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.*** (emphasis mine)
I hope this sets your mind at ease.
Saying, “Lord Jesus I am sorry” is focusing in on yourself? On the contrary, it focuses in on Him as Lord (not you as Lord). To deny this is worship of the Lord Jesus simply reveals the pathetic lengths a Catholic will go.
Your example about the prophet in 2 Sam. 12 won’t work because you have to prove that the prophet knew the TOTALITY of another’s heart – that you can not prove. But to be the heart-knower of all (kardiognwstes) does prove all of the heart by all people is FULLY known.
@Sparki: Don’t go ad hom on my now! Quote some Catholic theological authority, try Aquinas perhaps? 🙂 But you have simply lost so far! Holy Scripture is the hammer, not me! 😉
*me
I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one. I don’t see the issues to be any different than what Paul was addressing in Galatians. His point seems clear: if you are adding to the gospel, it is no longer the gospel; and if you no longer have the gospel, you are severed from Christ. I think the 1John passage is addressing a specific issue, that of false teachers teaching that Jesus had not come in the flesh. They were most likely precursors to gnosticism and/or docetism. In any event, I don’t think John would have suggested that as long as someone gets Christ’s deity/humanity right, then their salvation is secure regardless of their beliefs about salvation and the atonement, as that would seem to be in disagreement with Paul. At least that’s how I see it. Anyway, interesting post and keep me posted on your PhD stuff!
Mr. Peters, I am afraid that you are repeating an “old chestnut” from the days of the early protestant movement that is not true. The Catholic Church never sought to keep the Bible out of the hands of ordinary people. Rather, as I am sure you have learned in history, there was a problem in that the printing press was not invented until the 15th century. For 15 centuries, the Church painstakingly copied the Scriptures *by hand* and made it available to churches throughout the settled world where it was read aloud at every Mass (daily when possible). You also might remember from history that most of the world was illiterate and couldn’t have read the Bible even if they each owned copies. It was the Catholic Church that taught Scriptures to ordinary people. Go to Mass every day for 3 years, and you will hear the Scriptures almost in entirety. I know of few Evangelical preachers who ever do more than teach a little out of the OT, focusing on the NT. I’ve got a good friend from Ecuador who is Nazarene – her dad was a preacher and was never once stoned during his open-air preaching for 25 years, so I’m afraid there might have been something lost in translation when you were there. Or you were being teased. Anyway, Catholics read and love the Scriptures. In fact, the Mass is about 90% word-for-word out of Scripture, which I find very fulfilling after years as an evangelical, where our 90-minute “worship” services were mostly about the pastor’s intellectual discourses.
Michael,
LOL
“God likes some tension in our lives”? Jesus Christ said “Peace be with you” at least 26 times in the Gospel, not “tension be with you”.
“Solving it by punting to the church”? Have you gotten Tebow-fever or something? Matthew 18:17: “Tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen”.
Peace be with you!
Theology is not “tough stuff”: “what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” “Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and … To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction”
Mr. Samuel, We Catholics (who follow Jesus, thanks) know that faith without works is dead. and who fully trust the Lord Jesus Christ alone for our salvation. We believe in turning away from our sins (we have a whole Sacrament devoted to it). We do confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe with all our hearts that God raised Him from the dead. We’re just as Christian as you are.
Pete, you either took me out of context, the Scripture, or both. But I am not sure that those passages apply to what I said.
Sparki, you said “Go to Mass every day for 3 years, and you will hear the Scriptures almost in entirety. ” Have you read http://catholic-resources.org/Lectionary/Statistics.htm?
“However, since many parts of the Bible (esp. the Old Testament) are still not included in the Lectionary, one must go beyond the readings used at Mass to cover the entire Bible.”
What percentage RC go to Mass daily? I looked at CARA, it said 3.3% go more then once a week. (http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/FRStats/massattendweek.pdf) And yet this “sacrifice” still leaves you without true peace with God. The chart has Current Lectionary 71.5% of NT for Sundays and Weekdays and 13.5% of OT without Psalms. The pre-Vatican is only 1% OT without Psalms and 16.5% of NT for Sundays Major Feasts.
When I was young, we went weekly. From the Lectionary chart, 1 Chronciles is 0%, Obadiah is 0%, Judith is 0%. The chart has Current Lectionary 71.5% of NT for Sundays and Weekdays and 13.5% of OT without Psalms. The pre-Vatican is only 1% OT without Psalms and 16.5% of NT for Sundays Major Feasts.
I am thankful that you hear God’s Word with your ears, but not the hearers of the Law are just, do not be a hearer only, but a doer of the Word. I repeat, “”However, since many parts of the Bible (esp. the Old Testament) are still not included in the Lectionary, one must go beyond the readings used at Mass to cover the entire Bible.”
Mary was baptised in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2 – she was there)
Mary is now dead – or asleep in the Lord if you will – awaiting the resurrection upon Christ’s return.
Jesus is alive!
some Catholics pray to / ask intercession from Mary – dead prayers since she can’t hear them.
others do not, and go solely thru Jesus – live prayers
bottom line as I mentioned before – are you born again?
are you now going on in faith (John 20.31 et al)
and note that the present continuous tense is used
Sparki, so is this what you believe
“O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the goods which God grants to us miserable sinners, and for this reason he has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinnerswho have recourse to thee. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it isenough for me. For, if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou are more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge himself, because by one prayer from thee he will be appeased. But one thing I fear, that in the hour of temptation I may neglect to call on thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, then, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace always to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.”? Will you not listen to God’s Word to you instead? Acts 4:12, John 14:6, Come to Me and I will give you rest. Everyone who believes in Him is justified, all the Prophets bear witness that whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins, He who believes in Him is not condemned, expect you drink this Blood you have no life in you.
Mr. Taylor,
Yes, saying, “Lord Jesus, I am sorry” is focused on the self. I have done wrong. I am sorry. I need forgiveness from the Lord. Everything is directed toward gaining something for the self, rather than giving to the Lord, which is what worship is. There is nothing wrong with the “I’m sorry” prayers, of course. They simply are not worship. Worship is always 100% giving to Jesus, not receiving anything for ourselves. If our worship is about getting something for ourselves, then we would be worshiping ourselves, wouldn’t we?
Continuing on, I’m not the one who has EVER said that a prophet or Mary or anybody else knows the totality of anybody’s heart. I have consistently maintained that prophets and saints in heaven only have a partial knowledge, such that God enables them to have. If you care to address that point, I’m all ears. 2 Sam 12 still stands as my example of how the Bible proves that God can enable a human to know something (a limited something) that another human being holds inside, and that’s the type of gift He gives to Mary to allow her to know when we are asking her to pray with us and for us.
May the Lord guide us all in your life and death to be like Stephen the Martyr who called on the Lord Jesus:
““You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”
When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.
While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.” (Acts 7)
Fr. Robert, how on earth have you concluded that I have “gone ad hom on you” in any way? I am so confused by the messages you address toward me, because if they are for me, they ignore what I have posted here. Naturally, I think you must have me mixed up with somebody else.
May the Lord make us like the wise men in our life,
“After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.” (Matthew 2). If you walk into a room with two statues, one of Mary and one of Jesus, what do you do? When the wise saw the child with his mother Mary, what did they do?
And like this “Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk from the city. When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.” (Acts 1). Who were they praying to, ‘along with’? What would you have done? “As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” What is Peter…
Mr. Samuel:
Yes, as I said in my last message to you, MOST of the Scriptures are read at Mass over 3 years time, not all. And yes, I know that Bible study outside of Mass is very important.
My husband and children are able to go to Mass daily. I used to, but now I have a long commute for work that interferes with the early Mass times where I live. In the city where I work, there is no Catholic church near enough for me to go to noon Mass, so I content myself with Scripture reading and prayer for now.
I wonder why you assume that I don’t have true peace with God. How would you even know that? I’ve been more at peace since becoming Catholic than I ever was as an evangelical. I’ve found more victory over sin, more help in times of trouble, more joy, more of everything.
Thanks for your attention to the Catholic lectionary, but I think you’re missing something. And have you bothered to check on how evangelicals and fundamentalists are doing with their coverage of Scripture? As I said earlier, my experience in such churches is that they taught LESS Scripture than Catholic churches do.
You go on to suggest that I must not be a “doer” of the Word. Again, I have no idea how you would know that. I assure you that you are quite wrong. I live to follow Jesus. I realize that will never be good enough for you and many others here, but Jesus knows my heart is focused on Him and He knows I trust Him and Him alone for everything.
Sparki, thank you for your response. I’m sorry that you were in churches that taught less scripture than catholic churches do. Of course I agree the scriptures that are read in the RC -that’s God Word – compare it to the Homily. Where was this and what did you do to fix it? Clearly this is not my experience – of course faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Jehovah’ Witnesses study a lot, but do not have faith in Christ. search the scriptures, but come to Christ. I meant what I said only in pointing you to the Lord Jesus Christ, our righteousness, our peace. I only know what you think from the arguments you put foward on this board. Romans 5:1 Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace through our Lord Jesus Christ. If you have peace with God, are you talking about an objective peace or a feeling of peace? What is your peace based on? My peace is based solely on the imputed righteousness of Christ, as taught in the Letter of Romans. It only takes an hour or so to read it, may I urge you to take some time and read it carefully?
I grew up RC, all my family is RC, – my wife and I trust in Lord Jesus Christ, May He bless you and your family with His Word.
Mr. Samuel, the peace in Christ that I speak of is not a feeling of peace. It’s different from that. It’s a stillness of mind, a laser-like focus on Him throughout the usual trials and tribulations of life. It’s complete trust in Him, even if it means going against societal norms. I guess I would say it’s a supernatural peace – hard to explain. It wells up from within me but it doesn’t come from me, and it grows with each passing year. Is that what you mean by “objective” peace?
I do not understand what you meant by writing, “Where was this and what did you do to fix it?”
If you knew about my faith from what I wrote on this thread, you would know that I trust Jesus and Him alone for my salvation. And yet you seem to think I don’t.
I grew up atheist. My husband grew up holy roller evangelical. We trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, and so do our children. We pray together as a family to the Lord. We give thanks to the Lord for all we have. We all read the Scriptures every single day. Still, we’re not “Christian” to certain people. When I was an evangelical, I was taught that Catholics are not Christian. But when I actually sat down and read what Catholic really believe, I learned that Catholics are indeed Christian. God called my husband and I to convert. We were shunned by family and friends, but we obediently followed the Lord’s guidance, and it has only borne good fruit. How could anybody say it was wrong when we are to judge by the fruit?
Sparki,
Wrong. You are agreeing that He is Lord. Too bad you refuse to see that. Maybe one day He will be your Lord too.
Worship is 100% giving to Jesus? Yes, and properly claiming Him as Lord (agreeing that no others are Lord) is giving Him His due is it not?
Still like to know how she can hear 500 million or even a billion prayers at the same time without being omniscient.
“Wrong. You are agreeing that He is Lord. Too bad you refuse to see that.”
I don’t think I follow. How am I wrong for agreeing that Jesus is Lord? And how am I refusing to see that Jesus is Lord when I am simultaneously agreeing that Jesus is Lord? I am confused.
“Maybe one day He will be your Lord too.”
Jesus is already my Lord, thanks. I trust Him for my salvation and everything else.
“Worship is 100% giving to Jesus? Yes, and properly claiming Him as Lord (agreeing that no others are Lord) is giving Him His due is it not?”
Um, I never said that “properly claiming Jesus as Lord and agreeing that no others are Lord is giving Him His due.” Of COURSE it’s giving Him His due.
Still, asking for something for oneself is not worshiping Jesus. Worship of Jesus is 100% about Jesus without any thought of oneself. So the “I’m sorry” prayer is still a good prayer, but it’s not a prayer of worship. It’s a prayer of repentance.
“Still like to know how she can hear 500 million or even a billion prayers at the same time without being omniscient.”
I’ve already answered this several times. Mary knows our prayers only because God enables her to know our prayers. She is not omnicient. She doesn’t know EVERYthing, only what God enables her to know. Exactly like a prophet only knows what God enables him to know. Do you not agree that God can enable one human to know something about another human? The Bible says He can do this. Don’t you believe in…
@ thrufaithalone #46 page 3,
Our Lady of Fatima is really here nor there when it comes to Co-Redemtrix. They cover different issues.
I should explain also that Our Lady of Fatima is nowhere near dogma. A dogma is what is declared infallibly. Fatima is what is known as private revelation, as opposed to public revelation which ended with the age of the apostles. Public revelation is what the Church guards, interprets, and teaches. The faithful are not obliged to believe or follow private revelations. So, hypothetically, I could believe that Fatima is a giant hoax and still be a Catholic in good standing. Sometimes, the Church will give its approval to a private revelation –I think the terminology is “worthy of pious belief.”
Anyway, the idea behind Fatima (repentance) is not the same as the idea behind Co-Redemtrix (Mary’s special role in the Body of Christ).
As you can see, there’s more than first meets the eye to Catholic doctrine and teaching, and it’s best to believe Catholics when they try to explain what their teachings mean, rather than interpret their Church’s writings for them.
I used to be a Protestant, and I know all you’re doing is trying to protect “pure” doctrine. You love God and you think you’re being loyal to him by pointing out “flaws” in Catholic doctrine. You probably wonder why Catholics can’t see these”outrageous” problems in their practice. I used to do that too. it’s just that you have on Protestant-colored glasses,…
And you don’t know it yet. (:
Whoops, I should have just trusted my spelling instinct…it should be Co-Redemptrix.
Though I think that these comments have been very good and productive, things seem to be taking a bad turn. Thanks for all the comment, but this thread is now closed.
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