First, some fun:
- What is an Evangelical? A nice fundamentalist.
- How do you tell the difference between an Evangelical and a Fundamentalist? Ask them if they like Billy Graham. If they do, they are Evangelical. If they don’t, they are Fundamentalist (Fundamentalists believe he has compromised).
- Finally . . . How do you tell the difference between an Evangelical and a Fundamentalist? Ask if Roman Catholics are going to heaven. If they say “no,” they are Fundamentalists. If they say “maybe,” they are Evangelical.
Are Roman Catholics Saved? Short answer: I don’t know. However, don’t read to much into that. I don’t know if Protestants are Christian. I don’t know if many who go to my evangelical church are Christian. By “Christian” I mean someone who has truly been regenerated by God and is, as a result, a genuine disciple of Christ.
Of course, a better question that people are getting at is this: Do I believe that someone who is a committed member of the Roman Catholic Church can be a true Christian? To this I answer “yes.” Now, to be fair, I do not feel that the majority of Roman Catholics with whom I have come in contact are true believers. But, to be fairer, I don’t believe that the majority of Protestants (and Eastern Orthodox for that matter) with whom I have come in contact are true believers either! It is the problem of nominalism. Simply confessing to be a part of any Christian tradition does not mean that one truly embraces the ideals of said tradition. Christians are those who truly believe in who Christ is and do their best to follow him.
I think the most important question that has ever been asked in the history of the world is, “Who do you say that I am?” (Matt. 16:15). The confession of Roman Catholicism, along with that of Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy, has been united concerning this for two thousand years: “Jesus Christ is the God-Man who died for our sins and rose from the grave.” Getting that right is no small thing. In fact, I would say that to have a true belief in such a creed requires the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Roman Catholicism is to be commended, in my opinion, for being an ardent defender of the Trinity, the resurrection of Christ, and the necessity of belief in such. Though there are many passages I could turn to, I think 1 John 4:2 says more than we often give it credit for. In fact, I would say that this is one of the most neglected passages which could be used to defend the deity of Christ. Notice:
1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
Without getting too much into this (as it deserves its own blog post!), this passage teaches that a true belief that Christ is man and God is an indication that someone is “from God.” You may say that it only talks about his humanity (“in the flesh”) and not his deity. But I believe that implied within this is an assumption of Christ’s deity. Why? Because there would be no reason to deny that Christ had come in the flesh were it not assumed that he was God. I mean, how hard is it to deny that someone has come “in the flesh”, if they were only thought of as being human? It is a foregone conclusion that they have “come in the flesh”! This passage makes no sense, unless it is assumed that a person believes that Christ is God. But the point that I want to make right now is that it is a big deal to believe in the humanity and deity of Christ. Think about how rare this really is outside of Christianity. Obviously, atheists do not confess this, but what about Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Hindus, and agnostics? They don’t have as an essential core to their confession (to say the least) that Christ is the God-man. The best of Catholics do. The best of Protestants do. The best of Eastern Orthodox do. It is because of this that I don’t easily dismiss Roman Catholics’ status before God. They get the “Who do you say that I am?” question right.
Not only this, but Catholics believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that we are sinners in need of grace. Even though they lean toward inclusivism since Vatican II, they still believe that there is no other name by which we must be saved. Again, this is significant stuff which, if truly believed, I don’t see how an unregenerate person can confess without salvific implications. All of this can be said about Eastern Orthodoxy as well.
Having said all of this, I am sure that many of my Protestant brothers and sisters are getting hot under the collar right now. I understand. Many of you are saying, “What about their worship of Mary?” “What about their acceptance of Purgatory?” “What about the Apocrypha?” “What about the Pope?” And, most importantly, “What about their denial of justification by faith alone?”
All of these are good questions and significant differences (some more so than others). I don’t want to undermine the importance of doctrine by saying that Roman Catholics can be saved. I hope you don’t see me doing this (though some will inevitably think I am). I am simply saying that the most central question in Christianity is, “Who do you say that I am?”, and they get this right.
So the question becomes, “How can someone believe and confess that their works contribute to their salvation and be saved?” (as Roman Catholics do). My answer is this: perfect doctrine does not save anyone. Sufficient doctrine is an indication that someone is saved. I believe deeply that justification is by faith alone (sola fide). However, I don’t think that justification comes through a belief in justification by faith alone. Put it this way: Heaven will not be inhabited by anyone who contributed to their justification. Some will get to heaven and they will find out how radical grace really was. In fact, I think all Christians will be overwhelmed by grace. The sanctification process, in some ways, can be summed up as this: the progressive realization that grace (undeserved and unmerited favor) is our only hope. I don’t think any of us really grasp this. Therefore, both Protestants and Roman Catholics will stand before God with a greater realization and confidence that our works had nothing to do with our present state of eternal blessedness. Roman Catholics will have a bigger learning curve than Protestants, in my opinion, but both of us will be overwhelmed by what grace really is. Most Roman Catholics will have a sudden realization that it truly was their faith in Christ alone that justified (Eph. 2:8-9).
So, where does that leave us? Does this mean that the doctrine of justification by faith alone is not important? Most definitely not. Paul exhorted the Galatians (who were justified, yet were replacing grace with the burden of law and works) not to “get saved,” but to live out the benefits of their salvation. The degree to which we are preaching justification without works is the degree to which we are preaching the grace of God. So we continue, as Paul did, to encourage people to take the burden off their backs…it is not ours to carry. I encourage Roman Catholics to do the same: realize how crazy, insane, radical, and beyond belief grace really is.
Protestantism is not perfect by any means. I believe we have a “fuller” Gospel understanding than Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (otherwise, I would not be Protestant!), but this does not mean we have a perfect understanding of the Gospel. However, we need to continue to spread the message of the Gospel that grace is only realized once we see that it is completely undeserved.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
192 replies to "Are Roman Catholics Saved?"
Michael writes: “BTW: Lots of posts got auto-filtered and are/were in spam. I think I got most of them out, but some did not fit in with the rules of engagement and remain forever in Purgatory.”
May I have an indulgence?
Granted my son. It should have been released.
I must admit I find it terribly frustrating to say the same things over and over and over again and to have the same people on this forum refuse to accept what is true. Catholics believe that Jesus is the ONLY Mediator and that His Grace is sufficient. The fact that He invites us to participate in furthering His Kingdom is a separate issue entirely from who is the Savior and who is not. No Catholic believes that he/she could save him/herself or save any other person (unlike some evangelicals I know who believe it’s there duty to “save” people). If Fr. Robert wishes to believe what is not true about us, what can any of us say? Likewise, Mr. Taylor chooses to persist in the false belief that Catholics think that Mary is omniscient. I can’t think of any other way to tell him the truth other than the plain and exact words I’ve used already, but it’s like I’ve said nothing. And those are just two examples. I don’t understand why it’s so important for so many of you to hold on to falsehoods about Catholicism. Would you not be happy to know that the Catholic Church teaches that only Jesus saves and no Catholic believes that we can earn or deserve salvation? Would it not make your hearts glad to know that God’s family of Christians on earth is bigger than you thought it was?
Apparently not.
Indeed the Deity and Divinity of Christ is certainly salvific, and without this there is certainly no salvation! (John 8: 24)…literally, it is “For if you do not believe that ‘I am’ – HE”. Here of course the Jewish leaders purposely reject the great nature of Jesus own statement of equality with God! For this was one of the reasons He was crucified, as “King of the Jews”! And btw, it here that the Incarnation is so central also. As Luther maintained, the divinity of Christ is ‘hidden’ (abscondita) in His humanity! Here is the theologian of the Cross, the one who speaks of God crucified and hidden. Here again is Luther’s ‘hidden God’.
“Who do people say the Son of Man is?” …”But who do you say I am?” …. “And Simon Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Sparki, I would love it if all people who say “Jesus” were saved and in the family of God… but the Scripture is just too plain in condemning in no uncertain terms anyone who trusts in themselves for salvation – and that is meant to say anyone who even says God is saving me but somehow He is basing it on my works. Semantics won’t change the fact that in RC people are taught to work the works of justification. Sorry – that is legalism, error, heresy, and a damnable lie. Again, I’m not angry or in any way a Catholic basher. I say these things out of fidelity to Christ and love for you. Forgive me if you believe me in ignorance.
Soooooo, Mr. Esposito, you haven’t followed my link? You haven’t read what the Church teaches on justification? Because if you had read it, you would see that you are misrepresenting Catholic teaching in your statement. I forgive you, of course. I just don’t understand.
Mike: It has to do with the fact that my URL was too long. But both my comments are up, and I’m happy!
One interesting irony is how hard it is to interpret Catholic dogma. So trusting when someone says that another is not interpreting such and such Catholic teaching right is (and always has been) very interesting to me. Who says that it is not being interpreted right? I suppose that in all cases we have to personally do the best we can to research, argue, and justify out fallible interpretations, whether from the Church (Roman Catholic) or from the Scriptures (Protestant).
I have the very good fortune of having background in both catholic and protestant branches of Christianity. From infancy I was brought up as a Roman Catholic, received my education, became a senior altar boy, won an award for religious life, and seriously contemplated the priesthood. I fell away from the faith in my late teens, but returned to God through the ministry of a pentecostal church. Although God has met me many times since my reconversion, some of the most significant spiritual moments were within the catholic framework. In fact, some of the most truly spiritual individuals I have met are catholic. Now, when asked if I am catholic or protestant; my answer is ‘neither’.
Thank you ALL for your posts.
Let me leave you with this thought; perhaps neither of us really understands the mind of Christ in these matters. The penitent thief on the cross did not address Jesus as anything other that “this man” yet was promised paradise. Just sayin…
First of all great article. Second great defense of Roman Catholism to Sparki.
Third a few verses,to refelct on the varied comments, these aren’t quotes, I am RC, I read the Bible, not memorize it: judge not lest ye be judged… comes to mind first…
secondly: brother why are you concerned with sliver in your brother’s eye, when there is a plank in your own, first remove the plank in your own eye and then you’ll be able to see correctly to help remove the sliver from your neighbor
third: Jesus rebuking the Pharisees for forgetting mercy and only holding the law…
Old Testament: regards to Mary; fifth commandment: Honor your father and MOTHER … so do you really believe that Mary doesn’t have Jesus’s ear for intercetions? I’m thinking of this wedding at Canaan? Mary interceding on behalf of the groom, about the wine? Now I don’t have a degree in this but that is pressed into my heart. As for dead, isn’t it written that I AM the God of Abraham? How can that be true if Abraham is dead?
I believe that God judges our hearts, what is in the depths of us, so I question whether we should really get on line and truly judge another’s hearts for them? I don’t think so.
I think this is a great topic, and I have learned so much about my own faith, and God, and always enjoy reading the posts here. I will end with this: Come to me those are weary and I shall give you rest ( Jesus speaking)… faith like this child here… Blessings.
Michael: There is a Catechism, and it is fairly easy to follow. However, if one reads it with certain preconceptions or expectations of what Catholics believe–let’s say, if one has been fed a steady diet of Lorraine Boettner, R. C. Sproul, John Gerstner, and others for virtually all of one’s adult life–then one will get much of it wrong. And when one is corrected for getting it wrong, one will seem frustrated that Catholic theology is so hard to interpret.
(I am not saying, by the way, that is what you are doing. I am saying that that has been my own experience, having been one of those intellectually formed by anti-Catholic tomes. My piece in tomorrow’s Catholic Thing—http://catholicthing.org–addresses this question, by the way)
Sparki, I did read it through – but furthermore am fairly well-read in comparative religions. Even furthermore, I care about representing other people’s faiths with dignity and accuracy. From sec 2010:
I’m sorry, but no matter how many words we all speak and write to fill the universe with our debates, that there above says we can merit the grace needed for eternal life. What does it matter if it says that God was the initiator of the salvation if in the end we can and indeed must merit it – even a part of it. Love you guys, for real, I wish I were wrong, but that Bible is just too clear:
This is the perspective of a burned out fundagelcial. Catholics may have their quirks…but frankly evangelicals have their issues as well. Can the
just admit it ?
In the 10 years I was a fundy I saw and cringed at more evangelicals getting sexually excited at a tornado, natural disaster, earthquake, war, etc..
Because it means a preaching opportunity to declare:
A. This tornado, earthquake etc.. is God’s punishment for sin.
Or…
B. This war/terrorist attack means we’re in the End Times and the rapture is going to happen any moment!!
I was horrified to be an evangelical Christian because so many Christians almost took this perverse pleasure in the pain and suffering
of others. Christians couldn’t empathize…they had to use a tornado hitting a locations in Minneapolis or Indiana. As I said I just cringe.
So when people rage or dismiss Catholics because of certain doctrine, I just think of the quirks that fundagelcials have.
Oops I typed to fast.. edit above “they use a tornado hitting locations in Minneapolsi or Indiana to gloat and salivate over God’s punishment. Kind of like Jonah at Ninevah…
Eagle: very true, and very unrepresentative of Christ. Let me say it this way: many a Roman Catholic may live well above his theology, but no evangelical will ever reach the bar of theirs (if they indeed hold to biblical gospel).
Mr. Esposito, Catholics do not equate the words “salvation” and “sanctification” as I have said in a previous post. If you’re interested, please consider OUR definition of the word “sanctification” as you read OUR Catechism, because OUR definition is more likely the one that applies.
Friends, here are the bits that Mr. Esposito left out from the link I sent him to. This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.
Do you see how it says that our justification comes from Christ?
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
Do you see how it says that we get it from God and that it’s a free and undeserved gift?
2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
Do you see how it says that we have no merit but receive everything from God?
Please try. Jesus prayed that we would all be ONE (John 17), not thousands of factions condemning one another.
Catholics are not saved nor Baptists or any other religious members, as we are not saved by blood ancestry, the proclaimation of others,nor by declaring ourselves so, but, are saved by responding positively to the soul voice of God.
“Take your cross and follow Me.”
Sparki,
Like the Pharisee in the Temple, the RCC teaching gives God credit for producing merit in its people, by which they alledgedly may qualify for a right standing with Him.
“God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.”
So what if Rome teaches that men have “no strict right to any merit”? The self-righteous Pharisee would agree! He recognized that the merit he was counting on to justify him was something worked in him by the grace of God.
Yet, he stood comdemned.
To me, asking if those from historical churches (RCs, EOs) are saved is akin to asking if Christians from before the Great Schism was saved. If we deny that they are saved, we are denying historical continuity of the Body of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit to build and preserve the Church. If they are nit saved, then I’d seriously doubt that the Protestants are saved.
surely the simple answer as to who is/isn’t a Christian is:
are you born again.
if the answer is yes, then you is.
if the answer is no then you ain’t.
‘doing your best to follow Jesus’ has precious little to do with it – remember Judas?
there are born again believers in every denomination just as there are those who haven’t been in every denomination.
last I checked Jesus was not describing an optional extra but a ‘must’
+
salvation is a process (ongoing) and not a one-time event
Sparki,
To know our prayers is to know our hearts….what we are thinking and expressing as well as our motivation(s) behind them. The heart is the seat of emotions and thinking. To be able to know that (by all people in all times) necessitates omniscience
You can not differentiate the two.
Lord Jesus I am sorry for my sins. Please forgive me…….That isn’t worshiping the Lord Jesus? Are you serious?
Every true prayer is a form of worship.
@Sparki: I am not trying to be negative at all, but there really is a difference here as to the reformational and reformed belief, espeically the latter. As I have noted with Calvin, btw, even Chrysostum teaches the same: “Also Christ was to have three dignities: King, Prophet, Priest..” The great difference between us, is of course that no one else can really stand in or with that place of Mediator, not the Theotokos, nor the Saints, etc. This is really the issue! And here the Cross of Christ becomes not only a priestly sacrifice but a regal victory over Satan, sin and death. It is alone from this victory that Christ is the One and only Mediator. And simply there is no place for Christ sharing this once expiation, even after as He Himself is the “expiation” (propitiatory sacrifice) sitting on the Throne! (1 John 2: 1-2 / Heb. 1:3) And this also, breaks down the whole effort of a sacerdotal priesthood beyond or beside Christ! It is here that we can note, that the Anglican Communion does not have “sacerdotal” priests, but only presbyter’s.
Rather disappointing. I have no doubt that many Catholics are saved (and many Protestants lost).The ability or possibility of Catholics being saved, however, is something distinct from if the official RCC doctrine is true. The comments here alone are sufficient to demonstrate the huge gulf in the way that Protestants and Catholics define terms related to the identity and work of Christ. The RCC doctrine is not salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone which is what the Bible teaches.
Though much could be said of the great theological chasms between Roman Catholicism and biblical Christianity, one which needs to be emphasized in my estimation is the Catholic church’s shameful history of keeping the Bible out of the hands of ordinary people. The RC’s entire history is one of doing its dead-level best to keep the Word of God AWAY from people. This speaks volumes. The RC church has persecuted and executed untold millions for the crime of wanting to read the Bible for themselves. In parts of the world this continues to this day. I was in Ecuador last summer and went into a heavily Catholic town and was told by the missionary I was with that if I was to get out and open-air preach or even witness to someone I would likely be stoned. Keeping the Bible away from people is the work of Satan. This is not to say that there are not nice, sincere, giving Catholics – there certainly are. however, Catholic doctrine does not lead one to a saving knowledge of Christ and the history of the church is not a good one to say the least.
@Sparki: Btw, you might want to quote some of the Catholic theologians in your arguments, you have not done so? And I, as I hopefully you know, consider many Roman Catholic’s as “Brethren”! Again, in the end.. grace is much bigger than we can all conceive! And yes, I am a Calvinist, but more of a classic Anglican one.
I have given the only real “Catholic” verses I know of for a defense of praying for the dead, with 2 Tim. 1:16-18. Though of course these verses must be exegeted! And no one has sought to do so, so far? I stated I would not make an effort either way, though I don’t see it as clearly giving this defense of praying for the dead. (Though I have in my long past!) This is usually the problem with the RCC, they simply don’t exegete the scriptures, save making their own dogmatic efforts, on subjects and texts they choose.
One thing the Catholic Church taught me was that only God was Omniscient – they then turned around and taught us to pray to Mary: “Hail! Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To you do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, O most gracious advocate, your eyes of mercy towards us; and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus.”
This violates what Jesus said – He is our “Life” – and our hope is to be in Him. When the disciples asked how they should pray, Jesus told them “Our Father” – not “Hail Mary” – there is one Mediator between God and Man – there is no “Mediatrix of all graces” – Mary said “Do what He tells you”; Jesus says “Come to Me” – and Catholics keep going back to Mary and the saints. As an ex-Catholic I find it rather maddening they can’t see how wrong this is. They nullify the Commandments of God by their tradition.
The Lord Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead!
“Marc, Catholics don’t “pray to Mary.” We ask her to pray for us. That’s a really, really important distinction that most Protestants get wrong over and over again.” The Christian objection is not actually based on ignorance – God alone knows the hearts of men, and when I ask someone to pray for me I am NOT asking for prayer like the RC do — Christ is our Righteousness and Advocate. You actually insult and dishonor the mother of my Lord by rejecting what she actually believed about her all-powerful Son, Jesus Christ, the Lord of Glory, Who blessed her, so that all generations will call her blessed. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritiual blessing in Christ! And the Lord ‘whoever does the will of God is my brother, sister and mother’!
Whether through, to, with, (the distinction) you are dishonoring the mother of my Lord and dishonoring the Lord of Glory, Who is our Rightousness, Mediator.
The RC direct us to the online Catechism which says “2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.” Turn from…
Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) says,
“This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly…until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by
her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.”
This is idolatry!
The Catholic church teaches that Mary was conceived w/o sin – another serious error. She did not get to become the mother of the Messiah because she was so holy (although I am sure she was a Godly woman); she was able to become the mother of the Messiah because of her family history – all one has to do is read the prophecies which Luke and Matthew back up on both Mary’s and Joseph’s family trees.
Frank, the Catecism does help but it still fails to overcome some things from what I understand:
1. While approved it does not have infallibility. It just represents infallibility. Therefore it is a fallible summary and interpretation of Catholic dogma and practice. At least that is how I understand it.
2. More importantly, while it has perspicuity to some degree (maybe even a large degree), it still has to be interpreted as the individual reads and attempts to understand it. The final product is always going to be ones fallible interpretation.
Now, obviously I don’t have a problem with this as I don’t think infallibility is necessary for true understanding or relative unity. But when it comes to so many Protestant/Catholic issues so many will appeal to the “you don’t *really* understand it (at least until one accepts it!). Not calling into question your grasp of Catholic theology necessarily…
Zachary is out of swim lessons. Got to go.
Justin Peters is absolutely correct about the Catholic church keeping the Bible out of the hands of the people – they taught us that we were not to read it – and the “family Bible” we had stayed on a shelf in a closet in my parent’s bedroom.
Leslie @ page 2, #36:
Here is a good example of Catholic teaching being misunderstood. The possibility of “Co-Redemtrix” becoming dogma has pretty much been shot down, for the very reason that the term itself is too misleading. Here is a case in point….someone hears a blip about it in the news and thinks they know the theological concept behind it. It is indeed easy to be misled by it, and then to misunderstand Catholic doctrine.
“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
― Fulton J. Sheen
People really should look into Catholicism through a Catholic source, instead of just reading what others say about it.
Good job, Sparki.
Let me clarify that I am an Anglican. I wanted to point out one misrepresentation to start with. That is, Mormons do NOT deny that Jesus is the God-man who died for our sins and rose again. They affirm all those points explicitly. And I see no reason to deny that many devoted followers of Christ can be found within the ranks of the LDS church.
Of course Roman Catholics are being saved! (I think it is better to put it that way and to say “is saved”.) Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, who believes in Christ, and “abides” in his body (through divinely appointed channels of grace) is being saved. The notion that God would exclude a person from heaven because they formally deny that faith is the “sole” instrument of their justification is absurd, and turns God into some sort of petty cosmic theology professor, who is more concerned with a person’s lexicon than the state of their heart. Anyone who can read the rich devotional writings of Pope Benedict XVI and conclude that this is not a true follower of Christ is spiritually tone deaf.
Ultimately none of us knows the inner secrets of a person’s soul and walk with Christ. We can only judge them by their fruit (and yes, heresy and false teachings can enter into that judgment). But any definition of “Christian” which would exclude the vast majority of Christians prior to the formalization of the Reformation slogans and definitions of justification is obviously short-sighted!
I would be the first to say, that Mary the Mother of our Lord, is the Theotokos – the God-bearer, following the Council of Ephesus. And as the top tier-Reformers (Luther, Calvin, etc.) believed she was ever-virgin, for the solemnity of the Incarnation. (As too the Wesley brothers)And she was herself an elect-vessel of grace, and was or became sinless at the Annunciation, for of course the Incarnation, and birth of Christ.
Please, turn from you sins and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. God commands all men everywhere to repent because He has apppointed a Day in which He will judge the righteousness by the Man Jesus Christ (God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ), whereof He has given assurance unto all men by raising Him from the dead. I pray unto my all powerful Lord, the Son of the Father, eternal Creator, that He would open your eyes to see that we are justified by His blood, made righteous by His obedience, justified apart from the works of the law, justified by faith and peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, our sins blotted out! As a former follower of the organization headed by Mr. Ratzinger, who used to pray to “Mary” and “Michael the Archangel,” I praise the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that He opened my eyes to see the glorious Savior, who bore our sins in His body on the tree, the just for the unjust, to bring us toGod! He said ‘He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already.’
I understand that many RC don’t believe even the truth the RC officially affirms and I understand that some Christians are not familiar with RC teachings that affirm true things (even the Watchtower affirms some truth). But Jesus said ‘unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins’ and the Spirit says :not by works of righteousness. If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Faith without…
By asking her you are praying to her. Millions of Catholics can ask/pray to her at the same time and Catholics believe she has the ability to hear and act accordingly that is far far different than simply asking someone to pray for me. Now if I met my friend and asked him to pray for me and at the same time 100 million other people asked him as well and he was able to understand what was said (and the motivation behind what was said) by all these people that would demand omniscience.
The fact that RC’s deny in word what they really believe in practice is really deception in its highest order.
Fr. Robert, re: your question on other Biblical examples of prayers for the dead.
2 Maccabees Chapter 12: “And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers’ graves. Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain. All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain.”
“And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection: For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.”
@Pete: Of course I was talking about NT texts and scripture. Of course most Protestants, even Anglicans don’t see the Apocrypha as Canon. Another debate! 😉
(my PART 2 response, when the inevitable attacks upon the book of 2 Maccabees start flying) (not from you, Fr. Robert, from others)
2 Timothy 3:14-16 “But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”
Paul was talking about the OLD TESTAMENT in this passage.
Timothy was from Galatia, so he was brought up speaking Greek. Paul used the GREEK SEPTUAGINT OLD TESTAMENT to refer to “the Sciptures” multiple times in the following epistles: Romans; 1 & 2 Corinthians; Galatians; 2 Timothy; and Hebrews (!).
Irene, if they don’t believe that then the church should renounce the teaching because they still teach this dogma or not: “Mary’s Great Promise at Fatima –
The Five First Saturdays are intended to honor and to make reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for all the blasphemes and ingratitude of men.
This devotion and the wonderful promises connected with it were revealed by the Blessed Virgin at Fatima, a small village in Portugal. Our lady appeared to three children there in 1917, and one of the little girls, Lucy, tells us that Our Lady said:
I promise to help at the hour of death, with the graces needed for salvation, whoever on the First Saturday of five consecutive months shall:
1. Confess and Receive Communion.
2. Recite five decades of the Rosary (Joyful, Luminous, Sorrowful, or Glorious Mysteries)
3. Keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen Mysteries of the Rosary, with the intention of making reparation to me.”
To Mr. Ratzinger’s supporters: faith without works is dead. Whoever keeps the whole law and yet offends in one point is guilty of all. Don’t you know the unrightous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Neither adulterers nor fornicators nor drunkards nor homosexuals nor idolaters nor thieves will inherit the kingdom of God. If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Those in the flesh cannot please God. You who preach don’t commit adultery, do you commit adultery? Whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, whoever is angry with his brother without a just cause is in danger of hell fire. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off it is better for you to enter life maimed, then have to two hands to go into hell, the lake of fire. “He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the in the presence of the Lamb.” (Rev 10:14b) I write because I pray for you before the throne of grace to turn from your sins and trust in the Lord Jesus ‘ -I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by Me. Come to Me all you are heavey laden and I will give you rest. Repent, trust Jesus Christ right now to save you from your Sin, confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead! all prophets bear witness to…
Amen about the Septuagint (LXX), Pete! Btw, I have my copy of the Orthodox Bible. But also Paul liked to quote the Hebrew text too, and just sort of free-wheel with it also. Yes, St. Paul is our “Theological” Man!
I used to believe Catholics were saved, and I do believe that some/many may be due to missing the teaching of their church and not being devout enough in their teaching to miss the Jesus Christ. That said, the Jesus Christ they believe came ‘in the flesh’ didn’t come from an imperfect and human Mary, unless I misunderstand the teaching of the church. This would make Jesus Christ not really God in the flesh in the same way as we understand when we accept Mary’s humanness. This to me, is crucial, to the reality of the true Jesus Christ who was the perfect sacrifice for sins and able to be the true Saviour. The Catholics miss this Christ by purifying Mary to the point of having a Jesus Christ who was sinless due to not really being in human flesh in the way all are. It just doesn’t work.
Mr. Mazzotta, you have thoroughly misrepresented Catholic teaching here. I understand that you think Catholics are pharisees so I have absolute zero expectation that you will listen to me. Nonetheless, I am called to speak the truth, and so I will say this: Catholics do not believe that we can be saved by tithing or going to Mass or fasting or anything of the kind. We believe that we are only saved by Jesus. I can’t understand why you and everybody else here isn’t overjoyed to learn this. I should think you would be ecstatic to know that Catholics trust Jesus and Him alone for our salvation, same as you.
Hi Justin Peters. Are you the one I was acquainted with in Nashville? Mary Jo Cleaver Toso
Michael writes: “But when it comes to so many Protestant/Catholic issues so many will appeal to the “you don’t *really* understand it (at least until one accepts it!).”
I think that’s because the Christian life can’t be reduced to an instruction manual or a textbook on systematic theology, which is true of any tradition in which you may find yourself.
Also, theology–serious theology–is tough stuff. Not everyone can understand it or do it, but that’s okay. This is why in the Catholic Church it is more important that one is in communion with the Church than that one can give the right answers on a theology test. The Church, rather than the individual, is the custodian of doctrine.
It’s quite liberating as a Catholic to know that I don’t have to figure everything out in order to participate in the fullness of the Christian life. I, of course, enjoy reading, studying, and wrestling with theological issues. But they are not the focus of my relationship to Christ and His Church.
I find myself as a Catholic no longer read the Bible as if I were a detective trying to extract evidence for my favorite theological school of thought–i.e., Am I a dispensationalist, young-earth creationist, non-cessationist, Calvinist, non-sacramental congregationalist, blah, blah, blah? Such exercises trivialize Scripture, turning it into just a big Hebrew fortune cookie.
Reading the Bible with the Church avoids that problem and best honors the Scripture as the Word of God…
My heart breaks that the Body of Christ remains fragmented. In all these things I look to the character of my Father rather than to doubtful disputations.