That the Bible teaches the doctrine of election/predestination (henceforth, election) is not at issue for the Christian. All Christians believe in election. After all, it is in the Bible! The question is not, Does the Bible teach election? but, What does election mean?
There are two primary positions with regard to the doctrine of election:
Conditional Election: God’s election is based on the foreseen faith of the individual. God “elects” people because they first choose him. (There are other variations, but the essence is the same.)
Unconditional Election: God’s election is not based on anything in the individual, but on God’s mysterious sovereign choice. This choice is not without reason but is unconditioned with regard to any foreseen goodness in the elect.
Although I understand the sting that unconditional election brings, I am a very strong advocate of unconditional election. This is not necessarily because I believe it is the understanding that I am most comfortable with or because I think it creates that least amount of problems, but because I believe it is what the Scripture teaches. I try to follow my own dictum, the palatability of a doctrine does not determine its veracity.
Of all the passages that teach unconditional election, there are a few that take priority. And there is one that stands out more than any. While I can see and understand how people might interpret other “election” passages differently, this one is one that I simply cannot explain outside of a Calvinist worldview–Romans 9. I believe that the plain reading of this passage tells us that Paul believed in what is to most a radical doctrine that seems both bizarre and unfair.
Here is the passage:
Romans 9:6-24: It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Background/Context
We must understand some contextual background here. In Romans 9, Paul is defending the security of a believer in God’s love that was put forth in Romans 8. Remember, he ended that chapter by saying that there was nothing that could separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:38-39: For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That is an incredible statement that Paul seeks to defend. Most certainly he had been in this situation before. Try to imagine. In Ephesus, teaching on the security of the believer, Paul makes the same proposition: “Nothing can separate you from God’s electing love in Christ Jesus.” Someone in the audience raises their hand and says, “Paul, this is great and all, but I have a problem.” “What is it?” Paul responds. “Well you say that the elect are secure in God, right?” “That is right” Paul says. “Well, what about Israel? Weren’t they God’s elect? Weren’t they promised security as well? What happened to them? They don’t seem to be following God right now? If their election is the same as my election, my election does not seem too secure.”
It was a good objection and needed to be responded to. Paul does so in Romans 9-11. This is what this section is all about: defending the righteousness and integrity of God. Notice, Paul begins 9 by saying, “But it is not as though the word of God has failed” (Rom. 9:6). Why would he need to say this unless there are those who might be tempted to question the integrity of God’s word? He wants to show that the word of God has not failed with Israel and it will not fail with the Church. Notice as well that Paul ends this section by reinforcing the security claims of Romans 8, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29). So the entire section is about security. It is in defense of God. It is in defense of His claim that we cannot be separated from His love in the face of what seems to be evidence to the contrary—the current state of the nation of Israel.
Paul’s Defense of God’s Integrity with Regard to Israel
Paul’s explanation for the apparent failure of God’s electing love with Israel is right to the point. He explains that God’s election of Israel, with regards to ultimate salvation as he has been explaining it, was not of the entire nation without exception. In fact, it was always only a select few—a remnant—that were the true elect of God. It was an elect within an elect that were really elect. He illustrates this historically by referring to Jacob and Esau (Rom. 9:10-13). Even though they were both from Israel, only one was chosen. Therefore, not all of Israel is elect. He later illustrates this by referring to the elect within Israel at the time of Elijah (Rom. 11:2-4). The argument again is the same. Not all of Israel could be considered among the true Israel. He also illustrates this in a contemporary way by saying that he himself is an Israelite and he has not been abandoned (Rom. 11:1, 5). This is enough to show that the security of God’s love and saving purpose is for those that are truly elect. Key point: God has not broken His word in the past with Israel, and will not do so in the future with the church. The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
Some Further Objections
Once again, this brings up another objection that Paul has most certainly heard through the years of teaching. Imagine this Ephesian once again hesitantly raising his hand saying, “Okay Paul. Forgive me, but now I have another question. If this is true, that God elects some individuals and not others as was the case with Jacob and Esau, this seems very unfair. Why does God still find fault? Who resists His will?”
Now at this point we must realize the significance of this question with regards to the Calvinism/Arminianism (unconditional election/conditional election) debate. Remember, this is the same question that we have when we first read this. When Paul says, “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires” (Rom. 9:18), we are taken aback. We think to ourselves the same as Paul’s imaginary objector. How can God hold someone accountable for making this choice when it is only God’s election that can cause them to do otherwise? It is a good question. One that I often ask myself. But we must realize this: the question itself helps us to understand that we are following Paul correctly. If you don’t empathize with the objection, then you have misunderstood Paul. But if we do understand how such a question could arise out of Paul’s seemingly radical comments, it means that we are interpreting Paul correctly.
Now, when the objector says, “How can God still find fault, for who resists His will?”, if the Arminian position of conditional election were correct (that God simply looks ahead into the future and has decided to elect all who trust in Christ), there is really no problem at all. Paul just needs to calm the objector down by explaining how he has misunderstood the argument. If the Arminian position were correct, this is how we would expect the diatribe to proceed:
Objector: “If this is true, why does God still find fault in people. Who can resist His will?”
Paul: “Oh, you have misunderstood me. You think that I am saying that God’s will is the ultimate cause of our salvation, not ours. Let me clarify. God’s election is not based upon His sovereign unconditional decree, but upon your will to choose Him. Therefore, He finds fault in people who do not choose Him by their own natural freedom. Doesn’t this make perfect sense?”
Objector: “Oh, yes, it does. I feel much better. But you need to teach more clearly in the future. I thought you were saying something radically different.”
But of course this is not the direction the conversation goes. In fact, it gets stronger and more shocking. Notice, Paul did not have a definite answer to the objector’s question. He confirms that the question assumes the right presupposition (unconditional election) by His response. “On the contrary, who are you to answer back to God oh man. Will the thing molded say to the molder why have you made me in such a way? . . . ” There is no need for such a response if conditional election is in view! It is only under the supposition of unconditional election that this makes sense. I could see the objector cowering in the fierceness of the response. He is simply doing the same thing that I would do and have done upon reading this passage. The response let’s us know that while we don’t have the answer we were looking for, the presupposition, unconditional election, is indeed what Paul is teaching. There is no other way to take it in my opinion.
What a fearful thing. What an awesome thing. What a confusing thing. What a terrible thing. What a wonderful thing.
In sum, I believe that Romans is inspired. I believe that Romans should be included in the canon. I cannot approach this passage from any other hermeneutic than an authorial intent. It seems to be the case that the intent of Paul was to say that God unconditionally elects some people to salvation and not others. This is the Calvinist’s doctrine of Predestination.
As difficult as this doctrine may be for some, we simply don’t have the option of flying in the face of the argument simply because we don’t like it. I, personally, have come to a place where I understand and respect this doctrine. I do have a lot of questions for God (like why didn’t you elect everyone?), but I recognize that if God did not elect anyone, no one would ever come to him. I also recognize the many questions that arise from this such as If unconditional election is true, why evangelize? But the mere presence of questions or difficulties does not alleviate the truth from its burden to be. Our best posture before God upon learning of such truths is to stand with our hand over our mouth and the gavel at a distance.
While there are others whom I respect very much who do not follow me in a belief in unconditional election (such as fellow blogger Paul Copan), I have never been able to see much validity in any other interpretation of this passage. It is, to me, too clear.
273 replies to "“Why Does He Still Find Fault”: Predestination, Election, and the Argument of Romans 9"
Did I not say “does not sound like”?
“Because of the ability to crucify Christ repeatidly, believers can gain forgiveness for transgressions…”
Are you trying to distort my words?
How about Pauls?
Romans 6:9-11
9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 5:8-10
8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 9:11-15
11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,] so that we may serve the living God!
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Hebrews 9:25-30
25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 10:1-4 (New International Version)
Hebrews 10
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Post,
“because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”
You have indicated earlier that the sacrifice of Christ is only effectual for past sins and once one sins after accepting Christ they prove themselves to not be true Christians and commit the damnable sin of blaspheming the holy spirit. Yet that doesn’t fit with this verse which indicates the exact opposite. You’ve have quoted in support of your heterodox understanding of sanctification one of the primary verses which supports the already, but not yet understanding of classical sanctification. Notice that the language of this verse. It indicates that God has already made perfect those who ARE being made holy. The “ARE being made holy” indicates that they are not yet holy, but are still in the process of becoming holy which is exactly what the classical understanding of sanctification teaches. Christians are declared righteous (justified) before God on account of their faith. They are declared perfect. Yet the inward, outward and behavioral changes which reflect this declaration, the being made holy part of this verse, is a process that occurs over time.
Again your argument is non-sequitar and the verse you cite for your position proves the opposite.
14. For-The sacrifice being “for ever” in its efficacy (Heb 10:12) needs no renewal.
them that are sanctified-rather as Greek, “them that are being sanctified.” The sanctification (consecration to God) of the elect (1Pe 1:2) believers is perfect in Christ once for all (see on [2578]Heb 10:10). (Contrast the law, Heb 7:19; 9:9; 10:1). The development of that sanctification is progressive.
This is from the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary which is a commentary from the conservative Reformed perspective.
Post,
Please notice these verses in the book of I John:
I John 1:7-2:1 “but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous…”
Notice he is talking to Christians. He makes it very clear that we WILL still sin as Christians, but that Jesus will forgive us. We are, of course, in that process of sanctification that Michael wrote about.
Michael: “It indicates that God has already made perfect those who ARE being made holy. The “ARE being made holy” indicates that they are not yet holy, but are still in the process of becoming holy which is exactly what the classical understanding of sanctification teaches. ”
I don’t think this is the classical understanding of sanctification, although it is a common protestant sentiment.
The verb appears to be a middle, and ἁγιάζω carries the meaning of being set aside or dedicated. One I think might interpret this as someone who has “set themselves aside for God”. διηνεκής has the meaning “continuously”. (cf Heb 7:3, Christ is a priest “perpetually” διηνεκής). Therefore, the act of perfecting, why grounded in what happened in the past, is applied continually.
So I would tentatively offer the translation that “By one offering he has perfected continually those who set themselves aside for God”.
Are you a RC or EO John? I honestly don’t know much about how these organizations interpret sanctification. What I gave is the common Protestant understanding offered by just about every commentary on the subject I’ve ever read. Although I must admit I don’t know Greek and thus must rely on others that do and are trustworthy.
Michael: I’m EO.
The word commonly translated sanctification is the verbal form of Holy. The noun form of which is used to refer to “the saints” aka believers or “Holy ones”.
There are a number of words where Greek has a corresponding noun/verb form, but English doesn’t which tends to obscure various issues. One is Holy/Sanctified. Another is righteous/justified.
The best lexicons for ἁγιάζω seem to make the Protestant idea of sanctification to be a lessor meaning. i.e. #4 in BADG “to Purify”. #1 is “to set aside for ritual purposes” #2 to consecrate or dedicate. #3 to treat with reverence.
“because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”
Or
He has made perfect as in it is complete.
John 19:29-31
29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “IT IS FINISHED” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
They of cource did not all believe at the same instant.
So they are being made holy, each individual seperately.
It does not say who he is making holy, but rather made holy.
On a side note.
It is interesting that Jesus is given wine vinager on a hyssop branch.
Also that he was taken down before morning and that he did not have his legs broken.
Perhaps I am reading to much into it, But here is my theory.
It symbolises a passover meal from the bondadge of the old covenant to the freedom of the new.
10 “Tell the Israelites: ‘When any of you or your descendants are unclean because of a dead body or are away on a journey, they may still celebrate the LORD’s Passover. 11 They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow all the regulations.
Paul states as much.
1 Corinthians 5:7
Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
The Lord’s supper was also on the passover.
Mark 14:12
On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”
[QUOTE]Post,
Please notice these verses in the book of I John:
I John 1:7-2:1 “but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous…”
Notice he is talking to Christians. He makes it very clear that we WILL still sin as Christians, but that Jesus will forgive us. We are, of course, in that process of sanctification that Michael wrote about.[/QUOTE]
Or as the author adresses it to little children, it could mean that they are aprentice believers not yet baptised?
How else would these statements later make sense?
1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
Sounds like more of a warning against taking baptism lightly.
In fact the progression is shown in 1 John chapter 2
1 John 2
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Adressed to children perhaps unbaptised.
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Adressed to adults, baptised and now clothed in the body of Christ.
A rather high standard of behavior.
Of cource any unbaptised individual who claims that they have not sinned would be calling God a liar.
Jesus states that even those who have entertained temptations have comited the sin.
Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Which brings us back to the standards of the new covenant.
Jeremiah 31:33
“This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Michael,
“Not that I agree with Ernie necessarily but this doesn’t seem any worse then attributing things to a unrevealed mysterious second will of God which according to unknown criteria decides who to torture and who to accept.”
It’s quite different because it’s not a matter of us figuring out why God makes His decisions, but what has He revealed He does and how that relates to what we do. So it’s apples and oranges. One is a why question and the other is a what based on revelation.
BTW, I would take ἁγιάζω as a passive, as that is also indicated not only by the grammar, but by the subject of the verb in Hebrews (cf. 2:11; 10:10, 29; 13:12). There is no likelihood that it should be taken differently here.
Post,
If you read the whole book of I John, you will see that John refers to the people he is talking to there 9 times as “little children”. NINE times!!
And it is exceedingly obvious that he is not speaking to unbaptized children as you suggest above! Check it out for yourself.
John,
“I think the point is, we both acknowledge that some people do not suppress the truth”
No we don’t. You are assuming that by people not continually suppress the truth when they come to Christ in faith that somehow means that they do not suppress the truth revealed to them via natural revelation, which would contradict what Paul says here. All of the Gentiles given natural revelation suppress it and reject it. They need the real Gospel through which they will be quickened by the Spirit in my view. So every Gentile given natural revelation rejects it. God must then come and bring them to faith in the Gospel via special revelation, the preacher bringing news of good tidings. So the issue is that you are assuming that because some of Group A does not continue to suppress once the Gospel/special revelation is delivered that means that some of Group A does not suppress the natural revelation given to them.
“Well, that’s an assumption you have, but I’m not sure we need to go down that road.”
Well, it’s an assumption based on what Paul tells us the gospel is. So the author does know what Gospel about which he is arguing.
Gospel of course is used in different ways, but most of the examples you gave me were from an informed view of what the gospel was, since they are at the end of the Gospels or a part of the author’s, who now understands what the Gospel is, understanding of it. BTW, the gospel of God preached in Mk 1:14 is informed by v. 15: it’s about the kingdom of God coming.
“I don’t see the problem. The parable of the ungrateful son, who takes his inheritance early indicates that God gives us the freedom to go, but he wants us to come back on our own accord. I can’t see any other conclusion one could make from this parable.”
So it’s freedom to be completely convinced by the devil and the world to reject God, but not freedom if God were to convince you with his persuasive ability? How is it not freedom if God can convince you to believe without infringing upon your free will in any different manner than the world does? And if the world does infringe on your free will, and God lets you be apart of that world, how is God allowing you have free will?
“Well, you’re departing from the whole Calvinist argument, and you’ve broken the chain. Maybe I need to help you brush up on Calvinist arguments 🙂 “these whom He predestined, He also called”
(Romans 8:30 NAS95). It doesn’t say he called a bunch of people, some of whom are predestined, or that those who are predestined AND called are justified. Rather it says those who are predestined are called.”
Yes, I know. I don’t believe that this passage alone argues the exclusivist position. I do still believe that it argues the Calvinistic one however. So the same group who is predestined is the same group who is called is the same group who is justified. This does not mean that no one else is called. Your logic is faulty there. If I say that I invited everyone that I had planned to invite to my party, and they came, that does not mean that I did not invite anyone else. The argument is that those God predestined are called and are justified and are glorified. Now, do we know from other Scripture that those who are predestined and justified and glorified are only those who have faith in the gospel? Yes. But you would not necessarily get that from this passage. Do we likewise know from other Scripture that there are others God calls? Yes, but they are not predestined and therefore not justified and glorified.
Ernie,
Either I don’t understand the logic of your position, or it’s contradictory. I don’t know which. The point I would make is that you want God to respond to something that happens in time, but you do and don’t want someone in time to respond to God. Response is language of causation, so you are equally guilty of positing chronological or logical causation.
Are you honestly arguing that God elects to help us to believe because He knows that we will believe anyway? Why do we need to be elected and helped?
I have read it many times and It confuses me to.
I put the ball in your court then.
How should I reconcile the text of 1 John calling those who claim to know him but continue to sin as being liars?
He calls such individuals antichrists here.
1 John 2:17-19 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
It apears that some members have broken away.
This is so alarming to the Author that he indicates that the end is imanent.
Post,
Since what you are talking about here is so far off topic, this will be my last response to you.
Have you read the book of I Corinthians lately? This is a church, a group of people that Paul addresses as fellow Christians. However, he rebukes them over and over and over for their sinful behavior. But he still refers to them as fellow Christians. Fellow Christians that need to repent and live in a Godly manner and grow up in their walk with God.
“You are assuming that by people not continually suppress the truth when they come to Christ in faith that somehow means that they do not suppress the truth revealed to them via natural revelation”
The logic goes like this: We know some people do not suppress the truth (which you must admit). Therefore when Paul says something about “men who suppress the truth”, we ought to assume it is just that subset. And that being the case, we have no cause in Ro 1 to say that all men suppress natural revelation.
Futhermore, while Paul says a lot about these people and all the wide and flagrent things they do against decency, he then goes on to discuss gentiles who do what the law requires, because it is written on their hearts (2:14). Does that sound like the same people who are “filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice”. It doesn’t sound like it to me. How can they be totally suppressing everything to do with God, completely filled with wickedness, but then they are doing what the law requires because it is written on their hearts? That doesn’t make sense.
And how much sense does it make for Paul to say that God has revealed so much about himself in in natural revelation that his qualities are “clearly seen, being understood”, and then say that all men don’t see it? That contracts the meaning of “clearly seen” and “understood”.
“Well, it’s an assumption based on what Paul tells us the gospel is. ”
I don’t see how.
“BTW, the gospel of God preached in Mk 1:14 is informed by v. 15: it’s about the kingdom of God coming.”
Yes, the question is why you don’t think all uses of “gospel” should be similarly informed.
“So it’s freedom to be completely convinced by the devil and the world to reject God, but not freedom if God were to convince you with his persuasive ability?”
The issue is not word games about the meaning of freedom, the issue is the Text of Luke 15.
Postroad,
Again you distort the Bible. “Little children” is not a term for the unbaptized, but rather believers who are new to the faith. It has been interpreted this way since the earliest writings of the church we have dating to the 2nd Century. This is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible as well. Paul for instance uses similar terminology when addressing the believers in the Corinthian church.
“Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?”
This is done immediately after addressing them this way
” 1Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
It is clearly that though these people are still “worldly” Paul considers them brothers in Christ and having attained salvation.
Furthermore your entire argument is incoherent and illogical because you in essence say that the teachings of the writers of the Bible exclude the writers of the Bible from salvation. For instance Paul clearly had sin in his life after being baptized as did Peter. Yet it is evident from the Bible that they (Paul and Peter) felt assured of their salvation. So surely they didn’t intend the text the way you are reading for if they did they wouldn’t be assured that they would be saved and in fact would openly admit they were going to hell. Yet they didn’t do this thus making your argument ridiculous.
All good things must come to an end. So must this thead of comments.
Thanks everyone.
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