Issues of certainty, assurance, and conviction are hot theological topics today. Indeed, they seem to be polarizing the church into two extremes. On the one hand, from a theological standpoint, some people believe that in all our convictions we should have absolute certainty or we don’t really believe them. Others believe that certainty is a past-time archaic dream that has no place in reality.
On an experiential basis, things become even more confusing. How are we to trust God in our troubles? Should we have confidence that since we are His children that He will deliver us? If we don’t, does this mean that we really don’t trust God like we should? If we lack certainty, does this mean we are faithless?
Most all of us know and are inspired by the story of David and Goliath. David, a young man, green in battle, fights a giant who is a celebrated warrior. David brings his case before this warrior standing only on the foundation of his faith. He believed, indeed was absolutely certain, that God would deliver Him from the hand of the giant, thereby vindicating his God and Israel from the scorn of the Philistines. So assured was he that he would win the battle, he did not rely upon helmet or shield to aid him. He took his sling, gathered five stones, and defeated the undefeatable giant.
I often ask myself what gave David such confidence that he would win? Where did such certainty come from? Is this the kind of certainty that I should have in my “Goliath” situations? What if David had not won? I remember the old Richard Gere movie where David misses with the first few stones thereby creating tension. But the text does not mention any misses if it were true. Maybe he took five stones just in case one of them were to miss. Does this show uncertainty? I don’t think so. David told the skeptical Saul as he questioned his certainty, “The LORD who delivered me from the paw of the lion and from the paw of the bear, He will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine” (1 Samuel 17:37). But how did David know this? Well, in the end, David did defeat the giant and thereby vindicated not only Israel and His God, but his faith as well.
We are inspired by this story and are motivated in our own particular “Goliath” situations. We often hear people saying “This is your Goliath, and you must have the faith of David.” It is inspirational to hear this and we want to follow suit, but doubt often fills our mind. I know it does mine. What does it mean to “have the faith of David?” Does that mean that we are to have certainty—absolute certainty—that God will deliver us from our current plight? I know that I would like to have that kind of faith, but I can”t.
People would often tell me before my sister died that I have to have faith that God will heal her. They were often taken aback when I, a pastor, would tell them that I don’t have that kind of faith. Many times the result would be a raised eyebrow with people questioning my faith in general. I could hear their thoughts: Oh, he is losing his faith. The situation is just too hard. Or: when he begins to believe that God will heal her, then He will intervene, but not until then. Other times their expression would give their thoughts away: He is just a young Christian. Someday he will believe God’s power.
I have now been going through the same situation with my mother for the past three years. I sat with her recently, looking at her and mourning her condition and wishing that I had mom back. I said a silent prayer: God, I really do know you can heal her. Would you please? This prayer was filled with doubt.
Do I have faith that God will heal my mother? No, not really. Do I doubt that He will? Yes, for the most part. Here is why: I don’t have access to any information on the matter and therefore I must remain agnostic. You see, God has not told me either way. There is nothing specific in the Bible that deals with my particular situation, including the story of David. Believe me, I have looked. I have no idea. Based upon past experience with my sister, emotionally I am pushed to the negative. Some people who have had better luck in their past “Goliath” situations may be pushed to the positive. But we need to be very careful either way. We just don’t know the particulars of life. We don’t know what God’s plans are. Do I have the faith of David in this “Goliath” situation? Well, it depends on what you mean by faith. If you mean that I believe that God will have victory in general, yes. But the problem is that God’s view of how this victory is brought about may be much different than mine. God does not hot sync to PDAs. God is free to gain victory by my mother’s sickness or health. I have to keep that in perspective. While I don’t know how David knew with such certainty that he would be delivered, I do know that we, for the most part, are rarely blessed with such particular certainty.
I turn now to another story that might seem to be at odds with the story of David. It is the story of three Hebrew slaves who were brought into captivity by Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar in the fifth-century B.C. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego were three young men who would not obey the king’s law to worship the gods of Babylon. They would only bow the knee to Yahweh. Surprised by this and frustrated by their faith, king Nebuchadnezzar attempts to strong arm them into submission.
Daniel 3:13-15 13 Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king. 14 Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? 15 “Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?”
The boys responded.
Daniel 3:16-18 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. “If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. “But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.” (emphasis mine)
“If it be so”? “But even if He does not”? What kind of faith is that? They would most certainly suffer the same treatment that I described earlier for that type of doubt, right? It does not sound like the same confidence that David had. Didn’t they know the story of David and Goliath? Sure they did. It had been in circulation for five hundred years. They were in a life or death situation just like David, standing up for their God just like David and they essentially said that they were not certain what God was going to do.
Why didn’t they express the same confidence, the same certainty, that David did? Was their faith weak? No, not at all. The reason why they did not express that same confidence as David is because of the simple fact that they did not know what God was going to do. They could not place their faith in something about which they had no information. All they knew was that God was God and the others were not. They knew He could save them and He might save them, but were not sure. Either way, they were not going to bow a knee to the false idol of unbelief. They were a lot like me and probably, unless God has been giving you immediate revelation about your particular situation, a lot like you.
From my experience, I find that most of life is filled with more “if it be so’s” and “but even if He does not’s.” Life is filled with a lot of uncertainty. I believe that this is a more honest and responsible attitude to have. It will also keep us from much unnecessary disillusionment and pain. We have all seen false “prophets of hope” who do their best, with good intentions, to bring joy to a situation by expressing their certainty. “I just know that God is going to heal you.” Or “God won’t let that happen, I know it.” When that which they were so certain of does not come to pass, the cup of joy that was so easy to drink becomes a cup of bitterness.
I don’t want to be unduly pessimistic about any issue knowing that God can and does intervene and deliver people from their “Goliaths.” But I also want to be realistic and trust God no matter what the prospects are for the outcome of any “Goliath” situation. I believe that this attitude expresses just as much faith, even if it lacks certainty.
Remember, God has made a lot of promises, but there are also a lot of promises that he has not made. Don’t read promises into Scripture. Try saying this next time Goliath is at your door, “If it be so, God can deliver me, but even if you strike me dead, I will not abandon my faith because I will not place my faith in something God has not promised. You may raise some eyebrows, but you will be representing truth much more faithfully.
In the end, I don’t trust God for promises he has not made.
55 replies to "When I Don’t Trust God"
Michael,
Thanks for clear and succinct insight.
Thanks for another great post Michael. The understanding of faith is quite a struggle for a lot of us. Another story that comes to mind is the story of Jonathan.
1 Samuel 14: 6 “Then Jonathan said to the young man who was carrying his armor, “Come and let us cross over to the garrison of these uncircumcised; perhaps the LORD will work for us, for the LORD is not restrained to save by many or by few.” ”
“Perhaps the LORD will work for us”; doesn’t sound like he was absolutely sure in this situation, and yet he still moved forward. That is where the struggle really lies, I think. I have faith that God will do what God will do and it will ultimately work out according to His well; however, I don’t have faith that everything will always turn out for the best for me right here, right now. If I lived on that kind of faith, situations like Haiti would immediately crush it.
Michael: I absolutely LOVE the last statement!!
I am not certain I am a person of great faith, and I do think God may do more if our trust was greater. Nevertheless, I would like to reiterate a couple of your points.
First our trust is primarily in the person and character of God, more than it is in what he will do for us. He can do great things, and perhaps we should want for more, but we love and trust him even when it is hard. Paul had great faith, and saw deliverance, but still trusted God (I presume) when he was being put to death for his faith. As did Stephen, and the other apostles. Our hope is in our redemption (from God), his goodness, his intention to make us Christlike, and in a resurrection sans pain. If Christians are promised anything in this life it is suffering, even a life full of miracles. We see this with David and Paul and Moses.
Second, we must be very careful what we hear, or how we hear. Holding on to a promise of God that he has not given can lead to much distress. When it fails to come we blame God for something he never offered. Ask and hope for deliverance. Believe God for what he has promised. But note clearly what he does promise.
Just a couple of points I like to raise when “healing” discussions take place:
1. Everyone Jesus healed still died of something else later.
2. If we think being a xtain means a long life of health and happiness, tell that to St. Stephen.
“If God does not rescue us from the furnace, we won’t bow?” What sense does that make? Of course they wouldn’t bow – they’ll be crispy critters!
The “If this be so” and “But if not” statements cannot be referring to God’s rescuing them or not. It has to be referring to Nebuchadnezzar’s threat of the furnace… ie.
“Nebby, if you go through with this, God is able to rescue us! But even if you don’t, we still won’t bow!”
There’s their faith and the reason for Nebby’s increased rage.
“Then Nebuchadnezzar was filled with fury, and the expression of his face was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. He ordered the furnace heated seven times more than it was usually heated.”
Good post.
I heard Andy Stanley once preach on this and he pointed out that one of the few “promises” we have in the New Testament is that “in this world you will have trouble”.
Of course Jesus did not leave the disciples hanging there. He immediately encouraged them by saying, “But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
Good news indeed.
CMP thanks for a great post – it makes a great point (that I agree many do not like to hear) and is well written. You are dead on with the statement In the end, I don’t trust God for promises he has not made.. Which certainly does not mean I (or you) don’t trust God, rather that I trust Him with what He has actually revealed to us and that we do our best to trust Him in difficult times knowing the real promise is in the next life (Mk 8:35-38)
A possible clue as to David’s certainty vs. Jonathan (#2) or Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego is that David was anointed the next king by Saul already (1 Sam 16 – assuming the order presented in the text is is chronological). David had the promise that he would be protected so that he could be the next king – something you and I (and the other heroes of the Bible listed above) do not.
Thanks again
Mike B
I was once told, and accurately so, that the saving faith is very different from the living faith. Think about that statement before you rail me.
Yes, Yes, Yes!! Thank you Michael. I have been a believer for 37 years and have never thought to compare these two biblical accounts. And even if I had I don’t think I would have seen the obviously simple answer to the two different responses: somehow God had obviously revealed to David that he would be victorious. The Hebrew children, on the other hand weren’t so sure but trusted the wisdom of God anyway. Let’s face it we are in the Hebrew camp much more often than we are in the David camp, which in reality requires even MORE faith.(the Hebrew camp, that is)
It’s easier to trust God when we know the absolute outcome, i.e, Christ will one day return a right every wrong. But it is much harder in my estimation to trust him when for example my financial situation looks rather bleek. We simply don’t have promises that say that God will not let us go through really tough things. What a challange to trust Him anyway.
I totally agree Michael.
To learn to trust him more through difficult times , which he has promised us, is the test of faith.
Healing is not a magical formula of faith, God either heals or does not, we don’t produce the proper framework for this to occur or is it done strickly through our faith, but rather on God’s providence.
God does use suffering to produce strong faith, I’m sure there are times where you wonder where God has gone but you have endured , suffered , and can still boldly still proclaim his name.
The situation in Haiti, has troubled me greatly, why so much death, and suffering. I do not believe God caused this but rather allowed it to happen. The death toll was high because of poor construction practices. He is still “God” I trust him even in difficult times. Someone commented on Jesus words” Take heart, I have overcome the world” We have the final victory but not on this world.
“If God does not rescue us from the furnace, we won’t bow?” What sense does that make? Of course they wouldn’t bow – they’ll be crispy critters!
The “If this be so” and “But if not” statements cannot be referring to God’s rescuing them or not. It has to be referring to Nebuchadnezzar’s threat of the furnace… e.g.
“Nebby, if you go through with this, God is able to rescue us! But even if you don’t, we still won’t bow!”
There’s their faith and the reason for Nebby’s increased rage.
“Then Nebuchadnezzar was filled with fury, and the expression of his face was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. He ordered the furnace heated seven times more than it was usually heated.”
This post deeply resonates with me. Thank you!
CMP,
Thank you for this post!
My favorite section of Scripture in this type of discussion has always been Hebrews chapter 11. The author goes into a lot of detail describing all of the wonderful victories that people of faith had. THEN, he ends the chapter by talking about all of the suffering a lot of other people of faith had. From an earthly perspective, that last group doesn’t look like they had victory at all. However, God praises them for their faith for they were trusting in Him and looking forward to His rewards.
I also think of Paul’s discussion in II Corinithians 11 where he talks about all of the things he has suffered as he served the Lord. Life certainly was not a bed of roses for him! I would assume he probably prayed in all of these situations and would of really rather not of had to go through them, after all he was human. Yet this is what he did go through. God did not answer his prayers and deliver him from all of these problems.
I also think of Timothy. Paul spoke about him often having physical infirmities. Obviously God did not miraculously heal him.
I think your article is right on, CMP. We can only trust God for the actual promises He has given to us. And we can and must learn to trust Him in all situations whether we receive from Him the desired results of our prayers or not.
hmmm my first post was not there. then it was. sorry for the double.
@Sam Hoyle
The “If this be so” and “But if not” statements cannot be referring to God’s rescuing them or not. It has to be referring to Nebuchadnezzar’s threat of the furnace… e.g.
Are you taking this passage to mean that our 3 heroes were trusting that if they were thrown into the furnace God would definately deliver them and that there was no possibility they would get burned up as opposed to the interpretation that goes like this:
Your threat of throwing us in the furnace will not cause us to disobey our God and worship you. We are willing to suffer these consequences because we fear God who can kill the body and the soul. Therefore we trust God’s promise that we will be in his future kingdom even if God does not save us from this furnace right now.
Just trying to understand what you are proposing…
I’m saying that their comments apply to Nebby’s threat of the fiery furnace, not to their faith in God’s power.
e.g. “If this be so, (you actually follow through with your threat) our God is able to save us… But if not, (you don’t follow through on your threat) then know that we still won’t bow.”
Which leads to Nebby’s increased rage and makes sense since there was a hesitancy on his part at first to burn them because they were, after all, his handpicked favorites from the exiles, which leads to his ascertaining whether they actually disobeyed him or not.
You have added to the reference when you type:
“But even if he does not,”
it doesn’t say that, it simply says “But if not…”
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king. [1] 18 But if not, be it known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.”
Notice their faith: “And he WILL deliver us…”… they were sure.
Thanks, Michael. Well put. My eight year old is really growing in his relationship with the Lord. He often tells me of the things he brings to God in prayer. He made the inevitable observation recently that there was a prayer God hadn’t answered. I had this sort of talk with him, and encouraged him that sometimes God wants us to persist in prayer, sometimes He has a reason for not doing what we request, even when it seems like what God would want too.
My daughter is disabled. One time a man approached us and told me that God would heal her if we had faith. He asked if he could pray for her. I said yes (but didn’t have THAT faith). It was an awkward thing that he did with my child standing there hearing him say with confidence that she could be healed.
@Sam Hoyle
Thanks for the explanation. The reference I used in the comment is from CMP blog entry above – which is also the NET Bible translation (or looked to be). What translation are you using?
Re-reading the NASB (removing the italics) I can see where that could be an interpretation…
However, I see our 3 guys dealing more with the question the king posed in 3:15 — “… But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?”
3:17 (NASB)
If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king.
— If it be so (that is if you are going to throw us into the furnace for not paying homage to statue which is the stated intention of the king in v15)
— our God is able to deliver us from the furnace
— He will deliver from your hand
God may (or may not) save them from the furnace but He will (not a maybe/absolute promise) save them from the king’s power.
The text specifies the furnace and the hand of the king as two separate things just as the king listed the furnace and his hand(power) as two items in his decree.
3:18 (NASB)
But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.
“But if not” (literal) – could mean if God does not save us from the furnace which is how the NASB translators handled it. Thus it could be interpreted as – God may save us from the furnace but that does not matter we will still listen to Him over you. This is what enrages the king of Babylon.
Thanks again for explaining your interpretation.
Hope this one makes sense too.
MikeB
There’s still one passage in the bible related to this that i cannot figure out.
Matthew 17:19-20 “Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, ‘Why could we not cast it out?’ He said to them, ‘Because of your little faith. For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.”
what does that mean? O_o faith in what and based on what? As CMP has said, i’m still lacking info. I haven’t read that bible verse that promises that i can command creation. I’m happy to stand on God’s promises as soon as i know God has promised them.
I’m a bit scared of presuming on God that God will do certain things because i want them. People do that and take the Lord’s name in vain. The sin of presumption is in one of the 10 commandments. But how do i get faith as a mustard seed that can literally move mountains? or was Jesus being figurative? O_o
Sam,
I like your take on the verses and it makes sense, but does any commentary agree with this view? If so could you point out a theologian, dead or alive, that agrees with you?
Sam,
Your argument is plausible, since the Aramaic hen “if” appears at the beginning of both clauses. However, could it not also be that the disjunctive is in contrast to the preceding statement “our God is able to deliver us from the furnace of fire, and out of your hand, O King” in the sense that they are saying, “Our God can deliver us, but even if not (i.e. even if we thought He wasn’t going to do so), we would still not worship your gods or bow to the golden image you have set up?
I would think that idea reflects more the theology of Daniel, as well as the transitioned theology that lets the Jews know that God may or may not choose to save the physical lives of the righteous in the temporal sense, but that He will in fact save them in the resurrection.
Col. 1:24 Now I have joy in my pain because of you, and in my flesh I undergo whatever is still needed to make the sorrows of Christ complete, for the salvation of his body, the church; 25 Of which I became a servant by the purpose of God which was given to me for you, to give effect to the word of God, 26 The secret which has been kept from all times and generations, but has now been made clear to his saints, 27 To whom God was pleased to give knowledge of the wealth of the glory of this secret among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we are preaching; guiding and teaching every man in all wisdom, so that every man may be complete in Christ; 29 And for this purpose I am working, using all my strength by the help of his power which is working in me strongly. (’65 Bible in basic English)
see also: 2nd Cor. 12:9-10
FWIW, I have found that worshipping EXTRA vigorously in these “Goliath” situations often produces -if nothing else- a wonderful attainment of the spirit of gratitude. Davids’ life was one big “worship service” -so to speak- and you could make the case that THAT is what pulled him out of many difficulties into Gods’ grace whereas Saul, who probably didn’t do anything intrinsically worse than David, suffered His wrath due to a lack of willingness to, unabashedly, worship the Lord.
God bless you and yours, in Jesus name! amen.
Jonathan
I have always thought the verse in Matthew 17 concerning the mustard seed as Jesus saying to the disciples that they had the special power to cast out demons if they would only have faith ,that they had this gift. The verse about moving mountains sounds figurative(Why would anybody want or need to move a mountain) Jesus did say that anything was possible but I direct this to the special gifts the disciples had been granted, such as raising the dead or healing.
But it is interesting that Jesus mentions in verse 21 that for this kind of demon it would only come out by prayer and fasting. Is this the part of faith they were missing….not necessarily their lack of belief but lack of preparation.
Regards
I can only offer one possible explanation as to why David KNEW God would give him victory over Goliath: Samuel had previously anointed him king over Israel.
I must confess I have no idea how the Hebrews KNEW God would deliver them from the fire.
Just my two cents.
Michael,
Thanks for the heart-felt article. About the promises found in the Bible: another thing to remember is that for the most part these were promises made to other people. I know that believers like to think that “by extension” that these promises apply to them, but I find no good reason for such an interpretation other than human wish fulfillment.
About David and his extreme confidence in YHWH, please remember that the successful hero stories get written down and passed on; the ones that end in failure do not. The stories about young bucks who stood up to Goliath with supreme faith in YHWH and yet were slaughtered on the spot by Goliath did not make it into the Hebrew scriptures.
How many Hebrew young men, overflowing with faith in YHWH stood up to fight Goliath before David came along?
Peace.
Michael
I really appreciate your honest reflection here. I lost my brother to cancer and went through the very emotions that you described.
My brother had great faith and he would often tell me, “Todd, don’t worry. God has promised me that I will be healed.”
I didn’t say anything but the expression on my face said it all. He responded by saying, “No, you don’t understand. I know He is going to heal me. I don’t know if it will be this side of heaven or the other…but He has promised to heal me.”
What a great perspective. Faith is being sure of the things we hope for and being certain of the things we do not see.
Thanks Michael. I am encouraged by your words this morning.
Todd
All of you would be well advised to contemplate the implications of Matthew 13:33 which reads, “Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.” The second declaration is Luke 13:21 which reads, “It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”
Many suppose that these verse mean that the kingdom is leaven. A closer examination show that these verses mean that leaven was added to the meal to the extent that the entire three measures were leavened.
One way to define leaven is that is is something which is added to meal which causes the meal to seem larger than it was at the beginning. In the case of text, leaven is extraneous words. David had certainty because he had no extraneous words in his beliefs.
Thanks for your commentary, Michael. You’re statement, “…I will not place my faith in something God has not promised” is key to letting God be God and having joy and confidence in His promises.
Tom S… none that I know of. it just makes more sense to me
‘In this life, there is no justice, no peace, and no victory.’
That is as true for the believer as it is for the non-believer.
“If we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all men most to be pitied.” (St. Paul)
The end view has to kept in mind.
The theology of the cross calls a thing what it actually is, and realizes that out of the despair of suffering and death, life comes.
It isn’t how we would have written the script, but we have to trust that He knows what He’s doing.
“Lord, I believe, help me in my unbelief.”
A note on worship as drudgery: When things are bad, worship is NOT what we run towards. That is why we MUST worship. For, if the idea, as a Christian, is to be coming more and more into the presence of God then building ones faith, (thanking God, not fearing the unknown or, at least not running TOWARDS our fears) even when it is drudgery, is what we must do, given the choice. And we most certainly ARE given that choice.
1Sa 30:6 And David was greatly distressed; for the people spake of stoning him, because the soul of all the people was grieved, every man for his sons and for his daughters: but David ENCOURAGED HIMSELF in the LORD his God. (David REALLY needed to worship here…)
2Sa 1:12 And they mourned, and wept, and fasted until even, for Saul, and for Jonathan his son, and for the people of the LORD, and for the house of Israel; because they were fallen by the sword. (and sometimes mournful worship IS appropriate)
There are so many things we do because we “have no choice”. “I don’t feel like going to work.” “I don’t feel like cleaning the house.” “I really don’t want to take the youth group on a field trip -while I’m having such a bad day.” Yet, we push on out of a sense of duty, or even, we do some things, “or else”. Then, quite often something wonderful happens: “This is great -the boss gave me a raise cause I was here and Phil wasn’t!” (or something modest) “So glad I cleaned the house. At least that’s done.” (something long term) A kid, whose life you impacted for the better, from 10 years prior, thanks you from his heart.
Question: Why do we feel we must do so many things related to that which “moth and rust doth corrupt”, yet are so reticent as regards the maintaining of our relationship w/ the Creator of the Universe?
“Question: Why do we feel we must do so many things related to that which “moth and rust doth corrupt”, yet are so reticent as regards the maintaining of our relationship w/ the Creator of the Universe?”
I think it’s because we have a disease unto death called sin.
Thanks for the reminder from Daniel. It’s helpful for me to remember Jesus’ prayer request in the garden conditioned with “Father, if you are willing…” and “nevertheless, not my will but yours be done.”
I too have been thinking about what answers are certain when we bring petitions before God. One of the only prayers of faith I can fully expect God to answer is for his power to follow him and not sin. It makes me question how much I really value fellowship with him.
//“Question: Why do we feel we must do so many things related to that which “moth and rust doth corrupt”, yet are so reticent as regards the maintaining of our relationship w/ the Creator of the Universe?”
I think it’s because we have a disease unto death called sin.//
For clarity’s sake, my question is not in regards to the hold SIN has on us compared to that of God, I was leading towards the notion of establishing a habit of worship in the like as we engage in other “swell” acts.
If we can get up and do the noble act of “X”, for its own sake/necessity, and that is something that is done -quite often if not most often- because we “have to”, why not apply the same thought process(es) to the actions necessary for ones salvation? Certainly, if “the Kingdom of heaven is at hand”, there is an urgency required of us to repent and worship AT LEAST as much as that of “making the rent”, no?
With the relative rewards in mind, it seems we should be “worshipping our brains out” given what is at stake. Which leads us back to faith.
Son of Question, The Sequel: Is faith what we have from our reward(s), or what we have in lieu of it ?
“I do not trust God for promsies he has not made”. Hmm. I understand and I agree with your reasoning on this matter. But you may wish to revise that statement to make it read a bit more elegantly.
Are we really saying that unless God has written down a promise in black and white over 2000 years ago (when all of the books in the bible were completed) , that we cannot trust him to grant us his favour in that particualar matter? Does God only make promises in writing? Can God, through His Spirit make a promise to us today? Not necessary by verbally speaking to us in an audiblle manner, but by convicting our hearts and minds that He will perform a particular work and then perhaps taking steps to confirm it by some signs?
Just a thought.
David, on what basis then do we validate God’s word as his promise, if it is not recorded? I do believe that we can have a strong conviction in our hearts about something God will do for us but it is a stretch to confuse that with a promise. If he is making audible promises to us separate from his written word, then we are saying scripture is not his final authoritative word.
Praise the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I believe the “But if not “means if God do not stop us from being thrown into the furnace we are not going to bow. You know a person that would have lost faith or never had it would have started bowing once they see themselves getting closer and closer to being thrown in. Also, either way it went those false gods was not going to be bowed to by these Hebrew boys.
In other words Nebuchadnezzar, I don’t know what your purpose in doing this because your gods is not going to get bow down to by us.
Alive we are not going to bow and dead you know we are not going to bow, we will be dead.
Few questions:
Did the Hebrew boys know they were going to actually be thrown into the furnace?
Did they know in advance that God was going to deliver them in the fire and not from the fire?
Is it possible to say had they died in the furnace it was still deliverance out of king Nebuchadnezzar hand?
John the Baptist got his head chopped off?
Somewhat tangentially, but related to Susan’s comment (#18), this makes me wonder about what we’re actually teaching our kids regarding God’s character and reliability. Personally I grew up through Sunday school, VBS, summer camp, etc. with a real disconnect between a miracle-working God and my actual experience with Him. (I don’t recall, any lessons back then on Job, although I do remember hearing about Stephen.)
I wonder if it’s possible to present these stories even to children in a more nuanced/biblical way, rather than with the somewhat “super-hero” approach that is so often used.
Thank you for this!! This was truly a God-send that the newsletter came to my email with this post on it!! I’ve been wrestling with many things on this same topic just this week!! This really lead me to the right scripture and I do have so much clarity on what I was going back and forth on as far as healing/prayer/struggles/faith.
I guess it just makes me have more thoughts on God’s sovereignty though…. does all healing come from God? So we should always “praise God”… “thank you God” when there is a healing that takes place?
Because all good things come from Him and healing is “good”, right? Even though “good” or “bad” can be used for His purpose… healing is certainly “good”.
I guess I’m just rambling about all that because often times I hold back from saying, “praise God, thank you God” when referring to a healing unless I am willing to say, “praise God, thank you God” no matter the outcome….. even if there wasn’t a healing….. especially when I’m dealing with a situation with a new christian or non christian. It seems to me there is a ton of friends who will come alongside and “praise God” with you during the healings and great times, but disappear when things are tough….
For example, my friend whose son just got a kidney transplant….. I wanted to always express to her since I’ve been with her on this journey that I didn’t know what was going to happen – but I believed that God *could* heal matthew and I would pray for Him to….. but that I would praise Him no matter the outcome and help her look for His hand and His blessings – even if it became hard to do so.
It is hard to figure out His ways and I know we never will — but if He *can* heal, it’s hard to imagine Him keeping that healing from these babies that we see that are so sick and barely getting a chance to have any quality of life…. hard issues.
Thanks for letting me ramble 🙂
“But how did David know this?” In the same way everyone knew their religious ‘truths’ prior to God actually being revealed in Jesus as John says “No man has ever seen God; the only-begotten who is in the bossom of the Father has declared him.” (John 1:18) and as Jesus says in Matthew and Luke “No one knew the Father but the Son” and again in John 5 Jesus says to the Jews concerning his Father, “You have never seen his shape nor heard his voice.” How did David know that God was for he? He made it up. God hadn’t yet made a revelation. Nobody had seen God. Moses hadn’t really seen God’s shape, nor had the Israelites at Mt. Sinai nor any of the prophets heard his voice. “All who came before me were thieves and robbers” Jesus says.
Obviously you struck a chord with many folks. Good that we struggle with these issues realistically and publically. Now we see through a glass darkly, but yet we must keep our focus on the One who sees all.
Faith and certainty go hand-in-hand for me. I am certain of the Lord of the outcome. In Him is my faith. It is the Lord’s choosing, not mine. I have choosen so wrongly so many times. I yield to His everlasting love.
Why is there pain and loss? Why must those who love generously, live honorably, feel deeply, be so hurt? Hurt is the price for feeling. Pain is not punishment, but part of growth. The more we feel – the more we suffer. If we feel beauty, we must feel the lack of it. To have felt deeply is worth anything it cost. I will not try to escape pain. Instead I will bear it proudly, a privilege.
…from a poem by Elsie Robinson
Interesting posts. Always something to think about. I guess different experiences lead to different conclusions. I take the story of David to refer to the fact that while David would not have been anybody’s first pick to be a leader, God helped him – despite his very real short-comings.
Phil-style makes a valueable comment. On one hand, everyone that Jesus healed DID die later of something. On the other hand, everyone who turns to God does gain – a deeper prayer-life, perhaps strength to cope with whatever is happening, inner peace, a hunger for more prayer, etc. Having been in situations before (where I have had to watch loved ones die) the healing I saw came in different forms every time. Healing does not always mean the loved one gets up whole and resumes their life (to ascend later perhaps?). Sometimes healing means they pass on without pain, or that grief people share might not have the horrific destruction as sometimes happens. Sometimes the grief reunites torn families. Healing has many forms. And, if healing and help can come to the people of the Bible: flawed, coruptable, wretched as THEY are, then certainly God can help us in some way, now.
@Jeffrey
Did the Hebrew boys know they were going to actually be thrown into the furnace?
I think so. Read 3:15
Did they know in advance that God was going to deliver them in the fire and not from the fire?
No, I don’t think there is any evidence of that. In fact I assert that they did not know that God was going to deliver them from the fire at all. Only that He was able. (see comments above).
Is it possible to say had they died in the furnace it was still deliverance out of king Nebuchadnezzar hand?
I think so. See Matt 10:28
John the Baptist got his head chopped off?
True.
Here is a thought. Paul prayed for the “thorn” to be removed. The thorn was not removed. Was this because Paul did not have enough faith? When David prayed for his child who he fathered with Bathsheba to be spared, the child still died. Did David (the same one who faced Goliath) not have enough faith?
Thanks for sharing honestly. Sometimes I know that God will make sure that the best will happen, or at least He will preserve what is most important, but it’s a little unnerving realizing that His best can mean almost anything. Certainly the death of His saints is precious to Him, and our Father knows even when the sparrow falls, but even tragedy here on earth may at times be part of His perfect plan. Thank God we have His grace to sustain us through any such difficulty.
Thank you for your post. I needed to here those thoughts from someone with skin on. I to believe that sometimes I am just not in the loop. I am a soldier who follows Christ on a need to know basis.
My father committed suicide the day after I gave birth to twin girls. I had two babies in intensive care and was grieving my dad’s death.
My father raised my brother and I as atheists. I am a Christian now and my brother is still an atheist. After his death, my aunt sent my dad’s childhood possessions down to us and in them was a little Bible my dad owned when he was 7 years old. In his hand writing is a confirmation of belief in Jesus dated by my grandmother.
I wonder is my dad saved because he believed and accepted Christ as a child? Or did he just do that for his mom or because he felt obliged to do it? Did he really give his faith up? Can you give your faith up? Was he really saved? Is he in heaven or hell?
I often get angry at God because I can’t see Him or feel Him working in my life. Maybe I am not saved. I gave my life to Christ as a 13 year old, but it was not until I was 33 that I even attempted to live a Christian life. Can I lose my faith?
I tell myself, “who knows – only God”. I tell God this. “God, I am holding onto one thought, I am trusting in you to save me from myself.” My mind goes in circles on this because the Bible is not clear on if you can lose your salvation or not. I find conflicting scriptures. So instead of just not believing I usually end up with the “God, I am trusting in you to save me.” then I stop thinking about it and go on with my life until the next go around in my head.
Personally I think Satan has fun with my misery and likes to see me go in circles.
Mike,
Obviously faith is quite messy. I do think that there are times where the Lord will give the confidence that He will work a certain way. In my experience it goes beyond some emotion. In fact it is a clear awareness of what He is getting ready to do, or in many cases not do.
As a pastor I am often asked to pray for someone who is sick. I NEVER pray confidently for their healing unless I sense the Spirit leading me. I will simply ask for God to help them. However there have been times when I sensed after the prayer that the Lord is going to answer…He usually does. I have also had a time where I took a deacon with me to pray for someone who was on their deathbed. They wanted me to ask for her healing. At the time I really didn’t know what to ask. I just prayed that the Lord would “be with her” (I know that it is a cop-out prayer). My deacon told me later that he really had no peace at all towards praying for her healing.
I think that what you shared is important in the fact that it frees people to be honest about whether they sense the Lord’s leading in something or not. There is no promise in scripture that God will heal in a specific case, but the Spirit does lead in giving assurance when it is the Lord’s Will. Care needs to be taken in the times where He doesn’t give the certainty.
I think that we need to seek the Lord’s will more diligently in such cases.
Bro. Will
The Word says we know in part. I do not think we can full decipher the ways of a God that is so awesome in wisdom. His ways are not our ways and neither are His thoughts our thoughts. Sometimes trying to understand His intentions and how He works is what gets us into trouble. We just trust in Him and lean not unto our own understanding, humble ourselves and allow Him to take charge.
Some people have been told that because they did not have enough faith that is why certain things that they were beleiving God for did not come to pass but they forget that God works everything according to the counsel of HIS WILL….not yours!
Thanks, Michael. This passage in Daniel 3 has been an anchor to me, in that it illustrates their devotion to God above personal safety. What the three were saying, in effect, is that the king’s threats are useless to turn them away from the true God. Their confidence in God’s ability to save is not the same as their knowledge of whether it was His will to do so at that time. Let me say that again. They could not see into the future, knowing the outcome, but they expressed their faith in His ability as sovereign Lord to do so, and to deliver them out of the king’s influence.
This is to me more impressive than a blind faith in the outcome.
Also, some speculate that Goliath had brothers and that the extra stones David picked up were for them, if they were in the crowd.
I just noticed that the Hebrew boys two “if” statements” follow the king’s two “if” statements in the Daniel passage. Could they have just been replying with a structure parallel to the king’s?
I think that much of the faith issue comes from a sense of shame and guilt when we think that we do not have faith or do not have enough faith. We don’t want to believe that we lack faith, because we don’t want to feel ashamed and guilty. So instead of admitting that we lack faith, we turn and say that this or that must be God’s will – we take the focus off ourselves and our responsibility to be Jesus in the world and lay the responsibility at God’s feet for either acting or not acting in accordance with our will. We should actually be taking the responsibility for acting or not acting in accordance with His will, for believing or not believing according to His will.
If a soldier is commanded to fight a battle and loses that battle, he doesn’t blame the commander for the loss, nor does he go away feeling ashamed and guilty if he has done his best.
Daniel chapter 10 gives us a picture of God’s will for the angel to come to Daniel, yet the angel having to fight and be detained for 21 days. We are to pray for God’s will to be done on earth as it is done in heaven, presumably because otherwise God’s will on earth will not be done. God’s will is for blessing and salvation to come to the entire human race. We shouldn’t stop praying just because we know that many will perish. God is not willing that any should perish, but they will. It is still our job to pray God’s will.