Join Michael Patton, Tim Kimberley, JJ Seid and Sam Storms as they wrap-up their series on Roman Catholicism by discussing Icons, Images and Relics.

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    5 replies to "Theology Unplugged: Roman Catholicism – Part 16 – Wrap-Up"

    • Irene

      It was almost like the twilight zone, listening to you, who are main line Christian teachers of the day, disappove of trusting in the regenerative power of baptism, or of wariness of committing a sin that would condemn us. Unbelievable. Luther would be embarrassed and ashamed of what the Protestant church has become.

      –Lord, will many be saved?
      –The way is easy. You need only believe.


      –Lord, will many be saved?
      –The gate is wide that leads to life, and whosoever wishes to, finds it.


      –Lord, will many be saved?
      –STRIVE to enter by the the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will SEEK to enter and will not be ABLE.

      The Catholic Church is no burden on my back. It is a world of support and comfort from God. From the Church, I receive direction and nourishment as I strive to enter through the narrow door, to make my life a sacrifice of love in union with Christ.
      The Protestant church tries to lead me in another direction, along the way of self-indulgence, complacency, and presumption.

    • C Michael Patton

      Irene, that did not quite for with either your reputation or namesake. I wonder what it is you think Evangelicals believe here. There was certainly nothing extraordinary said here.

    • C Michael Patton

      Can you please find one place on this blog (cause I need only answer for my own teaching) where I have promoted self-indulgence? We don’t continue in sin so that Grace increases. We keep from sin because the forgiveness found through the work of Christ, without cost, compels us.

    • Irene

      “that did not fit with your namesake”

      You’re right – I apologize for the tone. I have to stand by the substance of what I said, though, and can just try to say it in a more clear, less disrespectful way.

      About the status of the Protestant church today–

      It’s just that the way you guys presented trusting in baptism, and fear of mortal sin, was as if those beliefs were “iffy”, fringe, beliefs that people need to be warned about. It’s not something you’d expect a traditional Christian, a traditional Protestant, to say. And if reasonable, non-liberal Christians are teaching this as nothing unusual, what does that say about the state of Christianity today?
      Really, if Luther were here, wouldn’t he demand to know how the heck you think you’ve arrived at such “blank”? The words would be flying, right?

      About self-indulgence-

      I’m not saying the Protestant church neglects to discourage sin. (Look at how you encouraged staying away from images because of the potential to lead to sin. I come to a different conclusion but still appreciate the aversion to even the possibility of sin.) I’m saying that in many cases, it calls something “not sin”, which really “is sin”. Not all sin is self indulgence, and I suppose not all self-indulgence is sin, but there is a lot of overlap.

      One example of self-indulgence that comes to mind is that of missing mass/church. To be fair, I don’t remember precisely whether you’ve called missing mass a sin, or a sin but not bad enough to worry about. In either case, the sleepy Christian is not encouraged to get up and get with it. His own feelings are indulged.

      Other examples I don’t know that you’ve taught on, yet are true for the Protestant church in general:
      -no exhortation to fast (self-indulgence rather than temperance and sacrifice)
      -approval of contraception (self-indulgence rather than sacrifice and truth)

    • Irene

      In your personal defense, Micheal, this is from your “Ten Reasons Good Christians Go Bad.”

      “10. Excessive Pampering

      I have a little jewel of a book called A Knight’s Own Book of Chivalry, written by Geoffroi de Charny in 1356. In it he gives advice, knight to knight, about how to be a knight of virtue. One of his contentions is that a good knight needs to guard against “excessive pampering.” This, according to de Charny, leads to an inability to be effective in life. His advice is to make sure that one does not get used to nice beds and soft pillows. We need to learn to sleep out in the heat and cold. We need to make sure we don’t become too fond of pampering ourselves or we will find ourselves impotent in many opportunities the Lord may give us.

      We can pamper ourselves in so many ways. The basic principle is to never get to the point where you think you must have something to survive. This can be something as small as giving up our morning coffee, to something much greater like giving up our savings account. The point is that when we structure our lives to take away all the stress that we need to engage, we can find ourselves slipping spiritually. This is why fasting and self-discipline are such important parts of the Christian life.”

      The last sentence,especially, is not emphasized enough in Protestant churches. Instead, the Protestant church comes across, as you guys did in that last podcast, as discouraging discipline and efforts to holiness, as well as the sacraments that make that holiness possible. (as in Don’t worry about that! That’s not necessary! That doesn’t matter anyway! and Get that burden off your back!, etc.). The disciplines and challenges and sacraments the Catholic Church gives me are not burdens! They are helps for my good! They are not denials of the grace of God. They are demonstrations of the power and generosity of the grace of God.

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