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Join Michael Patton, Tim Kimberley and Sam Storms as they discuss seemingly conflicting passages in Scripture regarding baptism.

C Michael Patton
C Michael Patton

C. Michael Patton is the primary contributor to the Parchment and Pen/Credo Blog. He has been in ministry for nearly twenty years as a pastor, author, speaker, and blogger. Find him on Patreon Th.M. Dallas Theological Seminary (2001), president of Credo House Ministries and Credo Courses, author of Now that I'm a Christian (Crossway, 2014) Increase My Faith (Credo House, 2011), and The Theology Program (Reclaiming the Mind Ministries, 2001-2006), host of Theology Unplugged, and primary blogger here at Parchment and Pen. But, most importantly, husband to a beautiful wife and father to four awesome children. Michael is available for speaking engagements. Join his Patreon and support his ministry

    11 replies to "Theology Unplugged: Problem Passages, Part 4 – Does Baptism Save?"

    • Mark Ducharme
      2012-04-13

      “NOWHERE in John does it speak of baptism.” ???
      After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. John 3:22
      When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) John 4:1-2
      EMPHASIZING that Paul came “not to baptize” is a logical fallacy as much as the notion Jesus is not “pro-baptism” because he had His disciples do it. Paul was merely explaining his duties and – MORE TO THE POINT – he was illustrating that he did NOT want people saying they were baptized in HIS (Paul’s) name but, RATHER, by Crispus and Gaius (“lesser” authorities) who were less likely to be “Popeized”.

      There is SO MUCH WRONG w/ this discussion & your false claims it won’t fit here. You are leading people astray and, as so called teachers, that is very wrong. Would love to counter this false teaching.

    • Mark Ducharme
      2012-04-13

      He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

      Then, coincidentally enough, Jesus’ disciples baptized in the name of Jesus, and no other way, throughout the book of Acts (as in, “The acts of the apostles in accordance w/ Jesus’ instructions.”).

    • Marc Taylor
      2012-04-13

      Mark Ducharme,

      If you would love to counter this false teaching as you put it I am open to debate. I have debated this issue many times mostly with those from the church of Christ.
      The fact that the Cornelius and the Gentiles with him received the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized proves they were saved before they were water baptized (Romans 8:9; 1 John 4:13). Much more could be said about them.

    • Mark Ducharme
      2012-04-13

      @ Marc Taylor:

      Good. Before moving on to scripture(s), can you address, specifically, my point regarding Paul’s statement that Christ sent him “not to baptize” and the obvious twisting of that scripture in the recorded discussion at issue?

      If you, like me, find it indefensible then I would like to move on to another of the many canards, based solely on the traditions of men, found in that discussion.

    • Marc Taylor
      2012-04-13

      I agree with you concerning 1 Corinthians 1:17.

      Now please explain how the Gentiles that I mentio0ned about above could still be lost after receiving the Holy Spirit.

      a. NIDNTT: The Christian has received the –> Spirit as a pledge of eternal life, but he awaits as something future the redemption of his body (Rom. 8:23; 1 Cor. 15:53) (1:440, Death – W. Schmithals).
      b. Danker: All those who belong to God possess or receive this spirit and hence have a share in God’s life. This spirit also serves to distinguish Christians fr. all unbelievers (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, pneuma, page 834).
      d. TDNT: Reception of the Spirit determines absolutely whether a man is a Christian or not (4:7, lambanw, citing Acts 10:47 – Delling).
      e. Thayer: The Spirit, the repository and imparter of life, and which is received by those united to Christ, Romans 8:2 (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, zwe, page 273).

    • Mark Ducharme
      2012-04-13

      The ENTIRE point of Acts chap. 10 is to show Peter (and by extension, ALL Jews) that the Holy Ghost is for ALL people of the world. And it all CULMINATES with: “… Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he COMMANDED THEM to BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD. Acts 1046(c)-48(a) EMPH. added

      To “make your point” you must, NECESSARILY, take scripture out of context. Peter did EXACTLY as Jesus instructed (preaching the Gospel), they repented and were baptized in the Holy Ghost so he IMMEDIATELY “commanded” them to be baptized IN HIS NAME – the ONLY “formula” for salvation. Always the same order? No, just always the same components – the ones Jesus instructed them on before being raised up into glory.

    • Marc Taylor
      2012-04-13

      I have cited Romans 8:9 and 1 John 4:13 which teach that if a person has the Holy Spirit they are saved. These Gentiles had the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized thus they were saved before they were water baptized.
      Not only that I have cited 4 lexicons/dictionaries that teach if anyone has received the Holy Spirit that means they are a Christian. From Acts 2:4 onwards anyone who has the Holy Spirit is part of the NT church.
      Just because they were commanded to be water baptized doesn’t prove they weren’t saved before this command. People are commanded to partake of the Lord’s Supper. Does that mean one isn’t saved until they obeyed this command?

      I have cited 4 sources that affirm my position these Gentiles were saved before they were water baptized. And your sources are?

    • Mark Ducharme
      2012-04-13

      “Take note, just mark on a piece of paper, every time there’s a reference to salvation (AFTER Acts 2:38), and what is required, and you will discover, that in EVERY other case in Acts, multiple instances – it’s either faith or repentance alone – no reference to baptism WHATSOEVER.”Huh? How can this be? Well, ya see, it’s not.

      But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 8:12
      (in this case^ it was like on the day of Pentecost for, Peter & John were sent to “follow up” the baptism w/ the Holy Ghost)

      see also: Acts 10:48 / 16:33 / 18:8 / 19:5 & 22:16

    • Marc Taylor
      2012-04-13

      Water baptism should be done just like partaking the Lord’s Supper should be done.

    • Mark Ducharme
      2012-04-13

      “And your sources are?”

      Only ONE – God – His Word – Jesus Christ, as He speaks to us from the Bible.

      He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

    • Marc Taylor
      2012-04-13

      Great. You ignored Romans 8:9 and 1 John 4:13 and how words are actually defined in terms of receiving the Holy Spirit.
      So your sources thus far is what you think how words should be defined (opinion) because you ignored the citations I have given.

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