Join Michael Patton, Tim Kimberley, J.J Seid and Sams Storms as they discuss the doctrine of Eternal Security.
Join Michael Patton, Tim Kimberley, J.J Seid and Sams Storms as they discuss the doctrine of Eternal Security.
40 replies to "Theology Unplugged – Eternal Security"
I think this message is spot on. Very good theology!
I think this message is spot on. Very good theology.
Interesting take that the intended recipients of this passage are non-believers who may be within the Church as opposed to Jewish Christians, which I understand most theologians state are the intended audience especially you read the 1st chapter which was dealing with the issue of Christ and angels. Moreover, if fake believers are the target of this specific passage as the men discussed, then the construction of this passage makes no sense if Christ’s sacrifice was limited only to individuals chosen by God. The author shouldn’t have referenced the Cross because Christ didn’t die for condemned.
Context, context, context!
I think that consideration is crucial in resolving this question.
The letter is addressed to Hebrews, specifically! The title tells us that, and the content reinforces that fact by addressing over and over again the superiority of Christ over the Law of Moses. It is most evident that the letter is an appeal to Jewish Christians not to go back to their reliance on a righteousness that results from Keeping-The-Law.
That was the big danger for these people, specifically! And that was the danger being addressed in Hebrews 6:4-6. We can see just how the psychology would work. Having accepted Jesus as the means of salvation, to go back to their old way of thinking would be fatal. I don’t think this is referring to the odd lapse. That was no doubt already happening and I’m sure that was forgiveable. But psychologically the danger is always there of reverting permanently back into Judaism, and by that they would be permanently lost!
From the context we should be able to see that these verses hold no direct significance for gentile believers who have not such a beguiling former means of “salvation” . They do however have an indirect relevance, and that is the danger of assuming we are saved by our own “good works”.
That is the “equivalent” danger for Gentiles!
Here is your answer to eternal security; love Yahweh with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul.
Love your neighbor as you do yourself.
Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, pray for those who persecute and calumniate you.
Honor your father and mother.
Do not kill.
Do not steal.
Do not desire your neighbor’s property.
Do not desire your neighbor’s spouse.
Do not bear false witness of others.
Do not worship false gods.
Do not commit adultery.
Do not lust for others.
Do not get angry at your fellow countryman or alien.
Do not do abominable acts towards each other; man with man, woman with woman.
Be forgiving to those who seek forgiveness.
Help those in need, the homeless, the starving, the naked, the ill, the prisoners who are lost and wish to be found.
Here’s my answer to eternal security.
Jesus.
Yes Carrie, and all that I spoke above comes from Yeshua. Amen
All that you spoke of was not only said by Jesus but accomplished by Him. Which is why He was the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
We are to strive to live like Him out of love for Him and in obedience to Him. We are not however striving to live like Him so just maybe perchance we might make it in. It doesn’t work that way.
There is no one work of merit nor list of them that we can accomplish that is sufficient for our entrance into heaven. That is based solely upon the person and work of Christ alone.
To suggest we in anyway contribute to His finished (and perfect) work is contrary to entirety of Scripture and redemptive history.
Carrie, I mean no disrespect to you. But you contradict yourself in your speech:
“We are to strive to live like Him out of love for Him and in obedience to Him. We are not however striving to live like Him. We are not however striving to live like Him so just maybe perchance we might make it in. It dosen’t work that way. (In the interest of intellectual honesty, the full statement made was added to your comment by the admin.)
True, works of merit is not done alone to enter the kingdom of heaven, but for us to live according to every word our Lord has taught us. And that is what I stated in my comment, some of our requirements by Christ. Define contribute, because in order to be perfect as our Father in heaven above is perfect, we are to contribute our responsibility that He gave for us to live by. If we sit back and do nothing, then we gain nothing,as did the servant who hid his coins instead of profiting from it.
Anthony, I edited your comment to reflect the full statement.
When you read the full statement there is no contradiction.
As for everything else, you are suggesting we can add to Christ’s finished work. That is something of which I have nothing further to say as I have said enough already.
Carrie you gravely mislead people in your speech. I feel sorry for you and forgive you, for you do not understand what you say.
You just called Yeshua wicked for teaching a man what he must do to have eternal life.
Yet you suggest that I am suggesting to add to the Lord’s finished works. Nowhere have I added to Yeshua’s work that the Lord himself has already provided. Peace be with you
Interesting also that you would edit my comment. But all the same it is a contradicting statement, even in its full context.
Your comment was edited because you excluded the distinction that was made in my initial comment. That was 1. because you didn’t read my entire comment 2. you did read it and simply didn’t quote it in its full context as a mistake or 3. you purposely didn’t quote it in its full context to distort my statement. What is interesting is the manner in which you quoted my comment…. that is truly interesting.
You can assert it is a contradiction fine but you have only done that; assert.
Christ’s work on the cross is finished. That and that alone is the sole basis of our justification before a Holy God. That is what grants our entrance into heaven. There is nothing we can do of merit that in any way grants us access to the presence of God. Period.
Living out the Christian life is done out of love and obedience to Christ *not* so that maybe we will make it to the end. Living out the Christian life is what we are called to do and should do. If we are not doing it then we are to examine ourselves to be sure. But in all that you have said it doesn’t seem you have made that distinction. You have merely stated repeatedly we are to more or less “keep the law.” Now while you may not have said that in those words, an inference can most certainly be drawn.
To suggest that we have a laundry list of things to do to ensure our eternal security is to suggest that something other than the person and work of Christ grants us that. That is tantamount to adding to the finished and perfect work of Christ.
You see what I did there? I made an assertion about your position then followed it with a cogent argument as to why I believe that.
Now, again. what more can be said?
Nothing.
Carrie, your teachings are wicked and demonic. Follow the Lord and not your own worldly ways
What you are saying to others in your twisted speech is that everything Yeshua said for us to do in order to be a follower to Him and carry our cross as He carried His for us, is to be null and void.
Matthew 5:17-20 you make void with your teaching
Matthew 5:21-26 you make void with your teaching
Matthew 5:27-30 you make void with your teaching
Matthew 5:31-48 you make void with your teaching
I have suggested nothing to you that Christ, Himself, has already suggested to you and every man and woman in this planet:
Matthew 19:16-21
And behold, a certain man came to him and said, “Good Master, what GOOD WORK shall I do to have ETERNAL life?” He said to him, “Why dost thou ask me about what is good? One there is who is good, and He is Yahweh. But if thou wilt enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.” He said to Him, “Which?” And Yeshua said, “Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honor thy father and mother. And thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” The young man said to Him, “All these I have kept; what is yet wanting of me?” Yeshua said to him, “If thou wilt be perfect, go, sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Are you to suggest Yeshua, who died on the cross for our sins, did so in vain, and that we are to ignore His “laundry” list as you had said the list above is? I would think not. Should we void all He said for us to do, then we would be making void His death.
No and it is clear. And you can see what I have said.
I am saying the laundry list doesn’t get us into heaven. Only the person and work of Christ does.
The laundry list is done out of love for Christ not so we can been deemed righteous enough to enter heaven.
To say otherwise is wicked and even demonic.
Anthony, I like your reply, but…
Just who is capable of all these? (I assume you mean 100 percent compliance?)
Or will 51 percent ensure eternal security?
I think there was one thing missing from your list, but fortunately Carrie has told us what is missing to make up the missing percentages from our own behaviour!
Thanks Carrie.
The only thing missing is for those to comply 100%. Yeshua made it clear as to what we need to do in order to have eternal salvation and life everlasting. I hear this many times by people who say, “I need not apply myself 100%, I need only believe.” Well in order to believe in Christ, you must abide by all he has given us. Not just 51%.
When you error, seek forgiveness.
When others error against you, forgive them.
Rebuke those who rebel, but forgive them should they return seeking forgiveness.
Life is simple but mankind creates complexity through drama and personal desires.
Serve the Lord and let those dark desires die.
Ezechiel 18:1-32
Romans 1:18-32
Matthew 5:17-20
Paul, our Lord was not directing his preaching to Hebrews only. He was giving guidance to all of mankind. For that very same reason he told the apostles to preach to all nations, not just the one. He covers all the grounds as to how we are to behave. And that includes the old law as well as the new law he added and the changes he made to some of the old laws, making them even tougher. All can be found in Matthew chapter 5.
And, sorry to say this Anthony, I may be wrong but I can’t help thinking that you are suggesting the very approach that the letter to the Hebrews was a warning against. The Jews were trusting in exactly the kind of security that you are advocating. i.e keeping the law, and they couldn’t do it, but wouldn’t recognise that they couldn’t andf they were in danger of falling away from reliance on Christ, into reliance on their own imaginary righteousness.
Sorry. But it’s me again with just another thought.
I think the sacrifice of animals under the law was a very unpleasant but necessary addition to teach the Israelites that they were incorrigably deficient. Every sin offering was a reminder that they couldn’t fully keep the law. But they kept missing the point and deluding themselves that by “doing” the offering they were “keeping” the law, when in fact it should have merely reminded them that they were failing to keep to law!
There was only one sacrifice that actually resulted in the law being fulfilled, the one that Jesus offered.
I felt it was important to make this point because it is another prominent theme in the letter to the Hebrews.
Galatians 3
1 O foolish Galatians (and Anthony), who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Lost sheep (Craig). For you preach from a letter of a man, himself was at fault for the shame he brought upon Christians in his days. Now learn from what Yeshua said from his own lips written by the apostles that were with Him during His time on earth on the flesh. Unless you should believe that all that Christ said is not true. What I posted are His words, not mine. Deny the Lord’s words and you deny yourself access to life everlasting.
This is how I see Norman Geisler paraphrasing the Hebrews 6 passage in Chosen But Free: “Don’t try to go back and teach repentance again, nor the conversion events related to repentance. I say this because it would be just as impossible to repent (convert) a second time as it would be for Jesus to go back to the cross a second time. Once you’re done the capital ‘R’ type of Repentance one time, you have been born again, and there is no being born a third or fourth time anyway.”
This is how I see Scot McKnight paraphrasing the Matthew 25 passage: “The pagan peoples who know nothing about me or my Father will be rewarded or rejected by me simply because of how they treated my followers when all others were neglecting or abusing my followers.” (“The least of these my brethren” is explained elsewhere in Matthew as referring to Christ’s followers, and similar statement in Matthew has Jesus saying that those who are kind to a prophet will have the reward of a prophet, even if the person showing kindness is not involved in the prophet’s mission in any other way. “The nations” in Matthew 25 refers to the Gentile Kingdom, not the Jews and not those who are in the Kingdom of Heaven.)
By Norman’s way of thinking under your thoughts would be rejecting the teachings of Yeshua. Christ knows we will fall occasionally and for that reason He taught us this;
“Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother sin against you, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if seven times in the day he sin against you, and seven times in the day turn back to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.” Luke 17 : 3,4
Denying Paul’s words are inspired is tantamount to denying Christ.
enjoyed this, as you say, an important word for our time- persecution of those Jews then, because of their faith, may have been tempting them to ‘bail’ and ‘deny Christ’ because it was so difficult…but thanks be to God –for faith to know that those He has saved, will be able to persevere even in worst trial and temptations, even from difficult persecution temptations to deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ somehow.. .but, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way…. you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. Heb 6:9; Jude 1:20-25
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. Heb 11:1,6
Anthony, this was why I spoke of Repentance with a capital “R” versus repentance with a lower case “r”. The Bible speaks of repentance in these two different ways.
II Cor. 7:8-11 and Rev. 2:5 speak of repentance after one is saved. This is not what the writer of Hebrews is talking about though.
The writer of Hebrews says that it is impossible for them to repent, while the other passages speak of a definite possibility of repentance. Therefore, the distinct appearances of the term “repentance” must not all have the same thing in mind. One is impossible to do, the others are possible to do.
Brother repentance has no two doesn’t meanings, regardless of a “R” or “r”. The only two types of repentance spoken of in the Bible is one that is done with sincerity from the heart and the other done without sincerity.
There is this problem with people of theology. They create more to the words of our Lord than what needs to be there. Yeshua made this clear. You either do or do not, you will or will not, forgive or forgive not, sin or sin not, die or die not. To not die, we live according to His every word, not just portions as so many others in this world do. I do, however, understand what you are referring. A peaceful day to you.
My error, no two different meanings. I should have proof read better before sending. Sorry
Then it will be very hard for you to explain the contradiction in the Scriptures. Hebrews 6 says that it is impossible for true believers to repent, while II Cor. 7:8-11, Luke 17, and Revelation 2:5 all speak of a believer repenting. Something’s gotta give, whereby the sense of the words in one passage does not equal the sense of the words in the other passages. I propose that it is the word “repent” that has more than one sense of the word, depending on where you are reading. You might propose that something different is meant by the word “brother” in Luke 17 as opposed to where it speaks of a believer in Hebrews 6? What is your hermeneutic solution to avoid there being a contradiction?
In other words, I believe the words of Christ and see a straightforward simple meaning in them. I just don’t think that the author of Hebrews is talking about the same thing in Hebrews 6 that Jesus was speaking of in Luke 17. They are addressing different things, for different audiences, for different reasons, and in different contexts. Both Jesus and the author of Hebrews are speaking by the Spirit of God in all truth and love.
We came across this recently with a teacher at our school. He’ll take a word and use it in some lesson that the students totally disagree. The students are understanding the word in a popular sense that is shaped by contemporary media. The teacher is using the word in a specific erudite way that is shaped by his particular philosophical and political background from a different generation. Once the teacher defines the way he is using the word, everyone agrees. But I wouldn’t encourage the students to go out and repeat those lessons in our culture unless they change the wording first or make very clear what they mean by the terms.
I see no difficulty in explanation of what Hebrew 6 is referring to. The repentance in Hebrew 6 is in reference to those who sin and repent over and over again in vain and not with a sincere heart. In Luke Yeshua refers to one who repents over and over again with a sincere heart, yet struggles in life to remain sinless.
The wording in the Hebrew letter can be confusing to many. This is why I stay with the teachings from the four Gospels. The wording is far easier for many to comprehend, with the exception of those who rather contradict the teachings to fit their own lifestyle and not that of the Lord, as He has taught us. These words of mine will leave bitter taste in the mouths of some, but the Lord never said carrying the cross was an easy road. I accepted that path.
I see. Thank you for explaining that.
What do you think of McKnight’s take on the Matthew 25 passage? He thinks it comes closer to a teaching on universalism (without it being universalism, of course) than it does to a teaching about works-based salvation.
Not knowing what passage 25 you are referring to, unless you are referring to chapter 25 as a whole, I could not give you an answer. Many chapters has a passage 25.
I will say this, I make attempts to not read from people who write words of contradiction, as you stated this McKnight person has done.
Geisler sees Hebrews 6:6 as “and then have drifted away”, where other versions have “fallen away” or “committed apostasy”.
I’ll guess, Anthony, that since you read this passage about those who repent insincerely, you would paraphrase it something like this: “Don’t teach about repentance again, since it is impossible for those who have drifted away to ever come to true repentance; they are eternally locked into a state in which every repentance they ever do will be insincere and ineffective.”
Would you read it as saying that these people are eternally predestined for damnation, since it will be impossible for them to ever have a true sincere repentance?
If you read it under the traditional “Arminian” paradigm, then one can be lost, but always has the chance to repent to re-enter salvation. The way you are reading it, including the word “impossible”, it seems as if you believe that this particular group will never have any such chance again.
For me, it is easier to believe either that God will securely and eternally preserve in His Kingdom someone who has entered His Kingdom, or that God will freely allow people to go in and out of His Kingdom as their free will is exercised (slipping away and coming back, sinning, but then repenting, doubting then believing again). It is very hard for me to believe, however, in this third idea – that God would condemn someone to being locked out of His Kingdom with the declaration that it will be impossible for this person to ever experience sincere repentance in the future. Would this be along the vein of the impardonable sin and the “sin unto death” of First John 5:16-17?
Why is it you prefer to suggest how another would “paraphrase” someone else’s statement?
If I have not state that to your exact words as to how you want to interpret them, then I simply did not say it that way.
But yes, as it is written in scripture; Christ said you need be sincere in your heart. And as you and l know, the Creator knows of all people if they are truly sincere of their forgiveness or if they are seeking forgiveness in vain, over and over again. The Holy Spirit states what happens to people who live a life in vain. I should not have to speak out directly that their destiny would be that of the weeping and gnashing of teeth. People make choices from the heart. People even attempt to cheat eternal death by seeking forgiveness in vain. This will apply to everybody, including me.
I’ve been pondering the interpretation given on the Theology Unplugged video, compared to Geisler’s. The video’s idea makes sense in that they see Hebrews 6 referring to people who are nominal but not committed followers, people in the parable of the sower who may have received the word but be without roots. Verses 7 and 8 make us think directly of the parable of the sower. This interpretation, however, does little to explain how verses 4-8 follow from verses 1-3.
Geisler’s interpretation makes a great case for how verses 4-8 follow from verses 1-3. Geisler’s interpretation, however, demands a different framing of verses 7-8. Instead of 7-8 being like the parable of the sower, you’d have to read them more as describing the big difference between the elect and the unrepentant, how these are two mutually exclusive sets.
So one interpretation is real strong connecting 1-3 with 4-6, but then makes us work harder to fit 7-8 in there. The other interpreation is real strong connecting 7-8 with 4-6, but then makes us work harder to figure out how 1-3 may fit in with there.
Simply theological nonsense. This is entirely a case of people reading the Bible so that it means what they want it to mean, rather than taking the simple meaning.
There is no absolutely clear statement in the entire New Testament to the effect “once saved, always saved”, and there are numerous contrary indications. There is no absolutely clear statement in the New Testament that “once saved, still possible to be damned”, and there are numerous contrary indications.
God does not call us or even authorize us to judge who has and has not been saved, or to understand whether or not salvation can be lost. This is exactly what Paul calls the folly of the Greeks in 1 Corinthians. God calls us to obedience.
Here is a nice sampling of verses (other than the many in Hebrews) that seem to imply one can lose salvation, and no, if you want to read them as saying “well the person was not REALLY saved in the first place”, you are writing the Bible, not reading it. “Every word of God is flawless. Do not add to his words or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar.”
And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, . . . Colossians 1:21-23
Keep a critical eye both upon your own life and on the teaching you give, and if you continue to follow the line I have indicated you will not only save your own soul but the souls of many of your hearers as well. 1 Tim. 4:15-16
Jas 1:19-20 “My brothers, if any of you should wander away from the truth and another should turn him back on to the right path, then the latter may be sure that in turning a man back from his wandering course he has rescued a soul from death”
2 Peter 1:9 “The man whose life fails to exhibit these qualities is short-sighted—he can no longer see the reason why he was cleansed from his former sins.”
2 Peter 1:10-11 “Set your minds, then, on endorsing by your conduct the fact that God has called and chosen you. If you go along the lines I have indicated above, there is no reason why you should stumble, and *if you have lived the sort of life I have recommended* God will open wide to you the gates of the eternal kingdom of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.”
2 Peter 2:20 “If men have escaped from the world’s contaminations through knowing our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, and then become entangled and defeated all over again, their last position is far worse than their first. It would be better for them not to have known the way of goodness at all, rather than after knowing it to turn their backs on the sacred commandments given to them.”
Matthew 24:12-13 “And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
1 John 2:3-4
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Romans 2:6-8
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Romans 11:22
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Mark 11:25
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”
Revelation 2:4-7 (Ephesus)
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Eph 4:30 “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
Mark 13:13 “Those who endure to the end will be saved.”
Matthew 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.