Theology Unplugged: An Invitation to Calvinism – Part 5

A question about predestination:

The Bible tells us: God predestined men into adoption (Eph. 1:5)

IF God sent His Son, born under the Law, in order that He might redeem them who were under the Law, in order that we might receive the adoption as sons (Gal. 4:4, 5)

AND IF “our redemption is through His blood” (Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14),

AND IF “because we are sons God dispatches the Spirit of His Son into our hearts. (Gal. 4:6)

THEN does it Biblically follow that no man became an adopted son before Jesus redeemed them through His blood?

ALSO, does it Biblically follow that God did not send the Spirit of His Son Jesus Christ to dwell in a man’s heart before they had received redemption and adoption?

Men are born slaves of sin—correct? Can God adopt a slave of sin? Doesn’t God need to set the slave free first before the slave has the right to become a son by adoption?

When in history did men begin to receive the adoption that God predestined them to receive?

Jim, right before Eph 1:5, Paul tells us the answer you seek. He says “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world”. God predestined that the elect would be adopted as sons through Christ’s blood, at the time in their life where they would have saving faith. The work was done on the cross, but it is applied at the time a person puts their faith in Christ and repents of their sins.

Micheal,
Why do you lift a phrase out of its context?
Eph. 1:5 tells us what God predestined or chose for men who would be placed “in Him”: “that we should be holy and blameless before Him”. That became possible through the shedding of Christ’s blood, by His death and resurrection. By God’s will “We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ” (Heb. 10:10)
I believe that I can make a Biblical case that no man was “in Christ” before Jesus became High Priest and began baptizing men into His Body (including past OT believers).

Was Jesus Christ freeing men from slavery to sin, adopting men as sons, indwelling the hearts of believers, and raising them and seating them in the heavenly (holy and blameless) where their lives are now hidden with Christ in God, before He became the sacrifice? Before the blood was shed that could cleanse men from all sins and take away all sins? Were “the elect adopted as sons through Christ’s blood” before He shed His blood?

My last sentence ran out of room.

Were the “elect adopted as sons “through Christ’s blood” before He shed His blood, before He became the High Priest to make proptitiation for the sins of the people (Heb. 2:17)? (He entered into the heavenly holy place through His blood (Heb. 9:12), and when He had made purification for sins He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High (Heb. 1:3).

Jim,

The preposition eis in Eph 1:5 has the idea of working toward the goal of something. So Michael’s assessment is correct.
However, I could just ask you, “Was Christ crucified before the foundation of the world or was He crucified somewhere between AD 26-33?” Answer that question biblically and you have your answer for your other question.

Hodge,
My Bible tells me, “the death He died, He died ONCE to sin, ONCE and for all” (Rom. 6:10), and “Christ having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him” (Rom. 6:9). Again, “But now, ONCE at the consummation He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself…Christ having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many” (Heb. 10:28).

Wayne Grudem comments on Rev. 13:8, “…but nowhere
else does Scripture say that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world – a statement that simply is not true in any literal sense, because Christ was not slain until He died on the cross” (Systematic Theology, pg. 673)

So when do you think Jesus Christ died? If it was before the foundation of the world, then how do you explain the existance of death before sin?

And how do you explain how the everliving God, the source of all life, DIED before He took on “the likeness of human flesh”, “being crucified through weakness” (Rom. 8:3; 2Cor. 12:9)?

Outside of a phrase taken out of context in Rev. 13:8, what other reasons do people point to in order to justify giving the benefit of Christ’s death and resurrection (like redemption, adoption etc.) before Christ actually shed His blood and died?

Jim,

I think you missed my point entirely. My point was that since God decided something from the foundation of the world, it was as though it was a done deal then, even though it temporally takes place later in the course of the earth’s history. So Christ was only crucified once. My point is that Rev 13:8, despite the translations that try to make it say otherwise, states that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, not because He was literally crucified then, but because it was a done deal in the decree of God to bring it about in time. The same goes for the adoption of the sons of God. It is a done deal before the foundation of the world, but occurs in the course of time.

Hodge,
Those are some very significant claims.

I am a serious student of God’s Word, and I do not recall any of those points being made in the Bible. Would you give me your Biblical support for each of the statements you made?

“…since God decided something from the foundation of the world, it was as though it was a done deal then, even though it temporally takes place later in the course of the earth’s history.”

“Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, not because He was literally crucified then, but because it was a done deal in the decree of God to bring it about in time.”

“It is a done deal before the foundation of the world, but occurs in the course of time.”

The reality is, God did not begin the building before the corner stone was laid (1Pet 2:4-7). Men were not temples of God in the OT. The Messiah had been promised, but He did not dwell in men’s hearts until after the actual resurrection. And men were not “made alive with Jesus Christ” before Jesus Christ came to dwell in men’s hearts to give them His life (Eph. 2:5; Eph. 3:17; Col. 1:4)

Jim,

You’re a serious student of the Bible and have never heard these claims before? How is Christ slain before the foundation of the world and in AD 26-33? Can you answer the question without appealing to a special authority? How are you saved now if you still need to be saved in the future? Your temporal limitations on God are absurd and they end up undoing a ton of NT theology. Christ is the cornerstone and foundation for the building. Yes. And? Are you seriously implying that Christ cannot be the foundation for the building of OT saints because His work is bound by time? That’s not the argument of the author of Hebrews. That’s not the argument of Paul. That’s not the argument of Christ Himself who said that all of the OT authors spoke of Him and looked forward to Him.
Please show me a statement that men were not made alive with Jesus Christ before the incarnation. I’m sure as a serious student of the Bible, you wouldn’t make the claim unless there was one.

Hodge,
I have “heard” these claims before, but I do not find them taught in the Bible.

You can’t lift a phrase out of its context, and then declare an interpretation that isn’t taught by the context, or by other Scriptures. Rev. 17:8 specifically speaks about a group of people whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. I have found alot of information throughout the Bible about this book. Rev. 13:8 also speaks of people whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. As I pointed out, renowned theologian Wayne Grudem stated, “but nowhere else does Scripture say that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world – a statement that simply is not true in any literal sense, because Christ was not slain until He died on the cross” (Systematic Theology, pg. 673).

Therefore I have simply asked you to give Biblical support for each of your claims in post #9. When you do that, then I can answer your concerns. Dialogue.

Jim,

Rev 13:8 talks about people who have been written in the book of life belonging to the lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world. Grudem’s logic is the same as yours and it’s bad logic. God is not bound by time. So what He declares (e.g., that you “are saved”) is a done deal even if you are still “being saved” according to other NT texts. Our salvation is declared as a fact and then brought about in time. The same goes for our adoption. My statement at the end is that you’re requiring the Bible to explicitly state the theology we use to make sense of two statements. If that is the case, then you should reject the Trinity as well. My point is that if X is declared as a done deal and Y is presented as still having to come about, or coming about at a later time, then the conflict between X and Y are due to God’s decrees as having absolute assurance of taking place in time.

What you are essentially saying is that time, not God, is the one that declares the fact of an event or position. I deny this. God declares what is not yet as though it is because He is not bound by time. If He were, then you’re not saved, Jim, because you are still being saved, and becoming is not having arrived.

Michael,
Coincidently, you wrote in your latest post:

“Adam was given life. God gave Adam the earth to rule over. He gave him the animals. If that weren’t enough, He then gave him Eve. Even when they rebelled, God INITIATED a plan to give man redemption. He gave them children and began to work through the line of one of them SO THAT HE COULD EVENTUALLY REDEEM MEN who did not deserve to be redeemed.”

That was my concern in post #2.
All of the Scriptures point to the shed blood of the Lamb, for redemption, release from sin and more (See post #2 and “He released us from our sins by His blood” (Rev. 1:5). How do you Biblically give men redemption and adoption pre-Christ? Gal. 4:4-6 says that God sent His Son, born under the Law IN ORDER THAT He might redeem those who were under the Law IN ORDER THAT we might receive the adoption as sons. You have just said that God “eventually redeemed men”. When in History are you placing that redemption? And what did God do to…

Let’s put this another way. In Gen 1, God is depicted as having absolute victory over chaos. He is the winner. He is in complete control of all of creation. Gen 2 and following depicts God, as parallel to Genesis 1, not as a development from it, as progressively battling and winning victory over chaos. God is the winner and yet He is still fighting to win. He is sovereign and yet battles to gain sovereignty over chaos. This is because from God’s perspective, everything is a done deal. It is complete. He has control now over everything, but for us, it still takes place in time. So God is at once enthroned king and warring king. He is from the beginning winner and yet in time still winning. Likewise, He has saved us, and we are still being saved. He has adopted all of His sons, yet some have not yet been adopted. Christ has been from the foundation of the world, and yet has been slain only once between the years AD 26-33. Satan has been defeated, and yet, still must be defeated, etc.

Hodge,
God’s Word promised, when I called upon the name of the Lord I would be saved (Rom. 10:13). Jesus Christ came to dwell in my heart (Eph. 3:17), to give me His life (Col. 3:4), God’s gift of eternal life (Rom. 6:23). God says that those who have the Son have eternal life (1John 5:11, 12). When I was given this new life I was SAVED by regeneration (Titus 3:5).When I was made alive with Jesus Christ by grace I WAS SAVED (Eph. 2:5). I was SAVED by His life (Rom. 5:10). Jesus Christ is my guarantee of the future work of salvation that God has promised.

I was saved from many ‘problems’.
I was under judgment, condemned to die. I was put to death with Christ before I received His life (detailed Rom. 5).
Slave of sin (detailed in Rom. 6)
Bound to the Law, and in this condition I could not be joined to Christ (freedom detailed in Rom.7).
And more things, not enough room to detail.

We still live in a world corrupted by sin, which will one day be destroyed (2Pet3:7-13). We are waiting for the redemption of our corrupted bodies (Rom. 8:23). Our mortal, corruptible (susceptible to injury, disease, death, decay) bodies will one day be removed, and we will put on immortality and incorruption. We will be rescued from the destruction that is going to come upon the earth. God has planned this future salvation, one day it will be accomplished.

“We will be rescued from the destruction that is going to come upon the earth. God has planned this future salvation, one day it will be accomplished.”

“rescued” of course is another word for “saved.” So do you admit that you are saved, but not saved? Do you admit that you are being saved, as 1 Cor 1:18 suggests, or will be saved in the future, as texts like Rom 5:9-10 suggests? It’s already, not yet, Jim; and it can be already not yet because God declares it as a done deal even though it is still yet to be for us. I’m not sure why this is such a big issue, except that you seem to think you can undo Reformed theology by it, so you’re going to hold onto it despite the obvious contradiction you created in other biblical statements and the non sequitur fallacy of arguing that because X takes place in time it cannot be declared as finished from the beginning.

Hodge,
Does 1Cor. 1:18=being saved? The KJV and ASV both say “are saved”. So I am not sure. Are there any other passages that say “being saved”?

Romans 5 tells us how a man, who is born an enemy is reconciled to God–through death! When a person is baptized by Jesus Christ into His body, he is baptized into Christ’s death (united to the likeness of His death) (Rom. 6:1-6). “For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son” (5:10). We are justified in His blood (5:9). We go from many transgressions to justification (5:16), given a gift of righteousness (5:17), acquitted (5:18), made righteous (5:19). Grace reigns through righteousness into eternal life (5:21). We are given eternal life when Jesus Christ comes to live in our hearts (1Jn 5:11, 12). “made alive with Jesus Christ by grace we have been saved” (Eph. 2:5). So when it says we shall be saved in 5:10, I believe that we are made to die with Christ, before we are made alive with Christ. When we are “dead with Christ” we shall be saved by His life. And we are saved by His life when we are made alive with Him, as He comes to live in our hearts.

So when it says we shall be saved in 5:10, I believe that we were made to die with Christ, before we were made alive with Christ. When we were “dead with Christ”, “we shall be saved by His life”. And we were saved by His life when we were made alive with Him, as He came to live in our hearts. Therefore I believe this verse (Rom. 5:10) speaks of the salvation we have now received, not a future salvation. I believe that our salvation is instantaneous, but there is a great deal of detail given in Romans 5, 6, and 7 that tells us about what happens when we are made to die with Chirst, before we receive His eternal life.

Jim,

You are declared righteous. Are you righteous? The NT presents salvation as already possessed and not yet possessed. I only cited those as some examples. What do you do with passages like 1 Pet 1:5? “Being saved” is just a translation of the participle. 2 Cor 2:15 repeats it. It depends upon how you see the present participle. Take Jude 21, or Titus 3:7 that tells us that our justification is in accord with the hope of eternal life, yet we are also told that we already have eternal life, etc.

Hodge,
I have been answering your questions. I asked you you for Biblical support for each of the contentions which you made in post #9 (see post #10). I believe that God promised redemption and salvation in the OT. Jesus Christ was God’s ‘means’ of providing redemption, adoption, justification, sanctification, and eternal life given in the new birth and more. I do not believe that the Bible teaches that God was giving men in the OT the benefits of that work before it was completed. That is why I am asking you to demonstrate from the Scriptures your basis for these statements.

“…since God decided something from the foundation of the world, it was as though it was a done deal then, even though it temporally takes place later in the course of the earth’s history.”
“Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, not because He was literally crucified then, but because it was a done deal in the decree of God to bring it about in time.”
“It is a done deal before the foundation of the world, but occurs in the course of time.”