Introduction to Traducianism
In essence, the forthcoming blog has to do with the genesis of the human soul. Where did it come from? That is the question you need to start with. Close your eyes and ask yourself, “How is the soul of a human being created?”
Traducianism is a doctrine in theology that posits the soul of a conceived child is derived from the souls of the child’s parents. This essentially argues that both the body and soul are propagated from the parents. No beating around the bush this time. This is the doctrine to which I subscribe with a surprising amount of theological vigor. No, it is not a cardinal doctrine of the faith that will send you to hell if you deny it, but it is foundational to so much of the Christian worldview as you will see.
The word Traducian comes from the Latin word “tradux” which means “source” or “transmit.” As a vine or branch is sourced or transmitted by its root, so the complete and unified constitution of a person, body and soul, material and immaterial, all come indirectly by God through the parents of the child. Therefore, for the traducian, a person does not have a body and soul, but a person is a body and soul.
This stands in contrast to Creationism (not to be confused with the debate over biological evolution), which asserts that each individual soul is created directly by God without parental involvement.
Arguments for Traducianism:
- The Gnostic Implications of Creationism: Gnosticism is a prevalent philosophy that purports, in essence, that the material/physical world is evil while the immaterial/spiritual world is good. Therefore, a “gnostic Christian” must deny Traducianism as they believe our ultimate goal is to be released from the physical world into the spiritual realm. But this is antithetical to the Christian worldview which not only expresses that original creation was good but upon completion, “very good” (Gen 1:31). The Christian worldview is so invested in the physical world that our entire theological system is built around the redemption motif of all creation. One day, the consummation of Christ’s victory will be seen through the resurrection of every person’s body and the restoration of a new, recreated physical universe.
- Transmission of Original Sin: The doctrine of Original Sin states that all humans inherit a sinful nature from Adam. Traducianists argue that if the soul is inherited from one’s parents, it offers a consistent explanation for how Original Sin is passed down through generations. The cells of our body are infected with sin; therefore, the cells of our soul (if you will) are as well. If God created the souls directly, how do we explain the inheritance of sin? Does God create a sinful soul? Or does it get infected upon insertion into the body? The problems with the creation model are significant. The Traducian model fits very well into a Christian harmartiology (doctrine of sin).
- God’s Sabbath Rest: The Bible says that God rested on the seventh day of creation. This does not mean He was getting his second wind so He could start again. The resting is complete. His work in creation is over. Hebrews 4:10 compares our future rest with his. However, if God is still creating new souls for each human then He isn’t resting at all. There are 385,000 people born every day. How could that be considered rest? And if he created all the souls by the seventh day, are they all preexisting their bodies in some holding area? Some Christians have believed in the preexistence of the soul theory (Mormons do as well), but there are no good reasons to believe this.
- Human Unity: The belief that all aspects of a human (both body and soul) come from our parents underscores the profound unity of the human person, in that there’s no dualistic division between a directly God-created soul and a parentally derived body. I am a dualist. I do believe that our constitution consists of an immaterial soul/spirit and a material body. But this constitution is a unity. I call my view “Conditional Unity” in my Humanity and Sin course. I don’t know if anyone else uses that name, but it is a perfect expression of who we are. We are a unified body and soul. But this unity is conditioned upon our life.
- The Abortion Debate: If Traducianism is indeed correct, there would be no debate as to when life begins. The moment the physical body begins to exist is the same moment the immaterial soul begins to exist. Think of the soul as being a vital component of cells. The soul is not in the cells but is in, with, under, around, and a part of every cell. Now, of course, this is not really an argument for Traducianism. It just speaks to the implications. But we should never decide to be a Traducian simply because it supports most pro-life arguments.
Argument Against Traducianism:
1. Genesis 2:7 says that God breathed into man and gave him his soul.
Response: The Hebrew word for soul (נֶפֶשׁ; nephesh), while it can mean the immaterial soul, it also just means “life” or “living.” That is why most every modern translation, even the New King James, rightly translates it in Genesis 2:7 “living being” or some variant of that.
New Living Translation
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person.
English Standard Version
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
New King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
New American Standard Bible
Then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person.
Christian Standard Bible
Then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.
New American Bible
then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
NET Bible
The LORD God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
2. The Bible explicitly says that God directly created the soul. Hebrews 12:9 says, “Besides, we have experienced discipline from our earthly fathers and we respected them; shall we not submit ourselves all the more to the Father of spirits and receive life?”
Response: This is trying to say too much about the direct creation of the soul. God is the ultimate Creator of all things, material and immaterial, but this does not mean that He does on use intermediaries in the creation process. If this argument were true, then is would also have to mean that God directly created the body without using the parents as the intermediate cause since Ps. 139:13-15 says that God formed our body.
3. Probably the most important argument (and the only one that seems to have merit on the surface) is this: If God does not create each soul individually, Christ’s soul was not created by God, but by Mary. But if this is the case, Christ’s soul is sinful like hers. He could not be our redeemer since his soul would be fallen.
Response: While, admittingly, there are problems here, they are not solved by having God be the direct creator of all souls. The Roman Catholic church overcomes this by dogmatizing what is called the “Immaculate Conception,” which purports that Mary was conceived, herself, without original sin. So she did not pass sin on to Christ. But all this does is back up the problem one generation. How is it that Mary’s mother did not pass on Original Sin to her? The better solution is that Christ did not have a human father. While this is simply a theory, it could be that the sinful corruption of the soul is passed on by the male. This would fit better in all accounts. It is important to emphasize that we are just not told this directly in Scripture, so it must remain a theory.
I do believe that the arguments for Traducianism are overwhelmingly persuasive. I will be surprised if we get to heaven and find out I was wrong.
Implications for Death and Resurrection:
Understanding the implications of the soul’s constitutional unity with the body helps to see the significance of the resurrection of our bodies. As Christians, we believe that at the second coming of Christ, our bodies will be resurrected. The unique DNA that we have in this life will be the same DNA that we have in the future as God recreates our physicality from the dust in the ground. The separation of the body and soul that happens at death is a violent breach of our constitution that was not supposed to happen. I think Paul’s statement to the Corinthians is significant here:
2 Corinthians 5:4
Our dying bodies make us groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and have no bodies at all. We want to slip into our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by everlasting life. (emphasis mine)
While we exist for a short time without a body between our death and resurrection, we will be incomplete persons, longing for the resurrection. Yes, it will be better than it is here in this fallen world as we, who trust in Christ, will be with Christ, but we were not meant to ever exist without a body. That is why Paul emphatically says, “It’s not that we want to die and have no bodies at all.” We don’t want to be incomplete persons. Here is an illustration I made to help explain:
In short, the Traducian view of the soul helps us to understand why it is so important that we be resurrected. God won’t even judge the reprobate until they have their full constitution. Have you ever thought of that? When someone outside of Christ dies, their bodies go to the ground and their souls, more than likely, have some sort of conscious existence in a “holding tank” of some sort. It is not until the general resurrection of the dead that God “opens the books” and judges people. And it is not until they have their full constitution that they God to hell.
Postscript: Notable Figures in Church History who held to Creationism or Traducianism:
It is unfortunate that I find myself outside the company of so many good theologians whom I respect greatly. This misfortune is only amplified due to my seemingly uncharacteristic passion for it. But among those who are Creationists (again, the opposite of my Traducian view) are Wayne Grudem, Charles Hodge, Louis Berkhof, and John Calvin. You may think I am more disappointed by Calvin, but I’m not. I left one heavyweight out of it who brings me the most disappointment: St. Thomas Aquinas! Notice anything about all of them? Yep, they are all Calvinist! (Yes, even Aquinas was a Calvinist before Calvin). Oh well, they are probably right and I am wrong. Wait, why am I conceded just because there are people who are smarter than me who disagree with me when there are also people smarter than me who agree with me! It’s no fly-weight list either: Tertullian (who is considered the father of Traducianism . . . he coined both the “T” words, Traducianism and Trinity!), St Augustine (woohoo!), Gregory of Nyssa, Martin Luther, Jonathan Edwards, and John Frame. James Sawyer is also a Traducian and has written one of the most important little books on the subject of Gnosticism/Dualism (A World Spit Apart) and has many implications toward our current subject. As I have attempted to take inventory of this issue, finding out where everyone stands, I am most discouraged by the significant number of systematic theologians who don’t ever mention it.
Side Note:
Just as a side note, in 2008 I was asked to be on a radio program to discuss this. They said they wanted me to focus on the theology of abortion with regard to this issue. They also said that someone would be on with me in the “green room” and that they would go first. The person who went first was in favor of abortion and I came in after to respond. I didn’t know who it was at the time, but they introduced him as Barak Obama! So, there is a claim to fame. I hung out with Barack Obama in a green room! I think I even said “Sup?”
21 replies to "The Forgotten Doctrine of Traducianism"
This is one of my favorite positions of yours. I’ve loved all you have written on the topic over the years.
Really!? That is cool!
To be honest, I’ve never heard of such nonsense from any Christian in all my life.
I began studying the word “soul” back in the early 2000’s, when I heard the Jehovah’s Witnesses tell me that a soul was NOTHING MORE THAN YOUR BODY.
No, it isn’t your body. 1 Thes 5:23 tells us this.
The Greek word for soul is psucke. Transliterated to Latin is…PSYCHE.
Genesis 2:17 can therefore be translated as…
And MAN became a LIVING THINKER.
Second, I do NOT believe in the nonsensical doctrine of ORIGINAL SIN. That is the most dumbest of all doctrines to come out of Catholicism.
1 Cor 15:42-46 talks about our current body, MADE OF DIRT. And it was THAT body that came first, not a glorified body. But a natural dying body from the very beginning.
And, Romans 5 is discussing the dying body, NOT SPIRITUAL DEATH. We die, because Adam DID NOT EAT OF THE TREE OF LIFE.
But let’s not forget, that he COULD HAVE eaten of THAT TREE if God hadn’t blocked it after the fall.
The other thing that I DO NOT believe in is the term SIN NATURE.
AS you can see from the Adam and Eve story, is that it took KNOWLEDEGE before they were CONVICTED of sin, or even knew what sin was. Without KNOWLEDGE, you are innocent of ANY sin that you may have done. You have to KNOW what you did before you are guilty of it.
Therefore, NONE of it is PASSED DOWN to you, except for TEACHING you, or giving you KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. And ROMANS 7:7-9.
The original sin doctrine is a PREREQUISITE to EITHER/BOTH “Doctrines of Grace”, whether it be irresistable, or prevenient.
DEBUNK original sin, which is EASY to do, and BOTH docrines of grace fade away into oblivion. And so does the notion of SIN NATURE.
IF sin is in our NATURE, then DELETE Romans 2:14 from scripture.
I’ve heard some whoppers in my time, but Traducianism has got to be the dumbest of them all.
Ed Chapman
I meant Genesis 2:7, not 2:17. Oops.
As a side note:
ALL SPIRITS OF MAN/SOULS OF MAN WAS CREATED AT THE SAME TIME. God is indeed STILL RESTING, because we ENTER INTO HIS REST.
You say that he STOPPED resting. NO WAY, JOSE. HE IS STILL RESTING. That’s what Hebrews 4 indicates. It is STILL the 7th Day, STILL God’s rest, STILL the Sabbath day. That day has NOT ended at all.
It pertains to the JEWS UNDER THE LAW OF WORKS, that when they turn to Christ, WORKS IS OVER, and REST BEGINS. Eternal Rest from the law.
That’s what Hebrews 4 is all about.
P.S. It’s EASY to prove that all spirits were created at the same time. YOU existed at the same time that Abraham existed. YOU existed at the same time that Adam existed.
Adam was NOT the first man CREATED. He was the first man FORMED. Spirits are created, bodies are FORMED.
Notice that in Genesis 1, animals were CREATED before MANKIND.
BUT, in Genesis 2, MAN was BEFORE the animals.
So which is it? Animals before Adam, or After Adam? Spirits of animals came first. Bodies of animals came after Adam. There is a difference between spirit and body.
When we die, our spirit STILL REMAINS. Our spirit is what gives our body life…James 2:26. Our blood keeps our flesh alive.
Seems that many have no clue that we are a spirit first and foremost. And that God is OUT OF THE CREATION BUSINESS.
Ed Chapman
Then again, according to the Hebrew Bible and mindset, all living breathing creatures were souls, including man as shown by Gen 2 :7. Man is a soul. He does not possess an immaterial soul. This was before the triumph of hellenism.
Ewan,
Headless LIVING BREATHING CREATURES, oh my!
Revelation 20:4
…I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
*****VERSE 10****
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
DEAD HEADLESS SOULS, NOT BREATHING…ASKING QUESTIONS!
Nephesh is NOT WELL DEFINED.
MY SOUL (GOD SPEAKING):
Isaiah 1:14
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
The Greek word for soul is PSUCKE. Transliterated to Latin is PSYCHE.
In the following, you have GOD telling us about the soul that he POSESSES:
Leviticus 26:11
And I set my tabernacle among you: and MY SOUL shall not abhor you.
Leviticus 26:30
And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and MY SOUL shall abhor you.
Deuteronomy 11:13
And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all YOUR SOUL,
If we did not POSESS a soul, then it wouldn’t be said, “YOUR SOUL”.
Deuteronomy 11:18
Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in YOUR SOUL, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
1 Samuel 1:15
And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have POURED OUT MY SOUL before the Lord.
POURED OUT!
1 Kings 17:21
And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child’s soul come into him again.
Job 6:7
The things that my soul refused to touch are as my sorrowful meat.
Job 10:1
My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.
Job 16:4
I also could speak as ye do: if your soul were in my soul’s stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you.
Psalm 13:2
How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily? how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me?
Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Did Jesus go to hell, or not?
Psalm 30:3
O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Psalm 35:3
Draw out also the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me: say unto my soul, I am thy salvation.
Imagine if that said, “Say unto my living breathing creature, I am thy salvation”?
Psalm 42:2
My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?
Psalm 119:175
Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.
Jeremiah 6:8
Be thou instructed, O Jerusalem, lest my soul depart from thee; lest I make thee desolate, a land not inhabited.
Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased:
Why would your SOUL need salvation?
1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
James 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
1 Thessalonians 2:8
So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.
Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Mark 8:37
Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
We posess a soul. And it needs to be saved. Eternal DEAD SOULS under the alter, CRYING OUT to God…
You might want to re-evaluate the definition of soul? And hellenism, too, while you are at it.
Ed Chapman
You simply don’t get it.
The nephesh is the creature, human, bird, animal, whatever or the life that such creatures enjoy as such.
Even in English we use the term ‘soul’ in the correct Hebrew way e.g. The ship sank and eight souls were lost. This means, of course, that eight people died or eight lives were lost.
I will stick to the Hebrew and not allow my understanding to be tarnished by platonism.
I agree. Man is a soul. He does not have one. However, I do believe that sin and death created an unnatural situation where there was a breach in the constitution of man made necessary and occurring at death. Therefore, dead people’s souls are somewhere right now. Jesus said to the man on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise.
Do you believe what I say or are you an advocate of soul sleep? No argument intended, just curious as I read your last couple of posts.
General Patton,
Why do you use the word “unnatural” coupled with “constitution”?
I am going to say that it was all NATURAL from the very beginning.
1 Cor 15:42-46 tells us that the DIRT BODY is the NATURAL body, and that the DIRT BODY came FIRST, and it also tells us ABOUT this DIRT BODY, as well.
42 It is sown in corruption
Corruption, in this case, has nothing to do with morality, or sin, or consequences of sin, or evil, etc. It’s meaning here is DECAY, whereas the body gets old, decays, and dies.
Adam was made to decay in the pit, just like David, but not like Jesus.
Psa 16:10
For thou wilt not leave H5800 my soul H5315 in hell; H7585 neither wilt thou suffer H5414 thine Holy One H2623 to see H7200 corruption. H7845
H7845
a pit (especially as a trap); figuratively, destruction:—corruption, destruction, ditch, grave, pit.
Act 2:27
Because G3754 thou wilt G1459 ➔ not G3756 leave G1459 my G3450 soul G5590 in G1519 hell, G86 neither G3761 wilt thou suffer G1325 thine G4675 Holy One G3741 to see G1492 corruption. G1312
G1312
decay
Moving on:
43 It is sown in dishonour;
43 it is sown in weakness;
44 It is sown a natural body;
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural;
The Natural, dying, dishonorable, weak body came first.
We die (Romans 5), because Adam never ate of the Tree of Life, and that is what we inherited from Adam. Death of the Body, because he failed to eat of THAT OTHER TREE. And when he disobeyed, God had to block access to THAT OTHER TREE so that he could not obtain eternal life in a fallen state, meaning, that we could have inherited eternal life SEPARATED FROM GOD, if God didn’t block access, then Romans 5 would have been re-worded, that we inherited eternal life, but also that we inherited eternal life without God, being spiritually dead. We did not inherit a “SIN NATURE”, we inherited DEATH of the Body, and that’s it. NO ORIGINAL SIN HERE.
You don’t really believe that this earth, Adam being in Paradise, was intended to be our permanent home from the very start, do you? This earth has never been HOME. We are just PASSING through.
Adam was intended to breach, due to his weak body, to succomb to temptation.
The dying “process”, if you will, began when God breathed Adam’s spirit into his body, not when he disobeyed God. And why?
2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Ed Chapman
Ewan Kerr,
And I suppose that you would define Heart as a blood pumping vessel, and leave it at that, huh?
Most of the stuff I quoted was from the Hebrew scriptures. MY SOUL. The word “MY” indicates that we have a soul, not that we are one, BUT YES, YOU ARE ONE, BECAUSE you HAVE one.
You are only using HALF of the definition of Nephesh. The other half of the definition is:
“used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)”
And the English words used for Nephesh includes:
any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.
Notice that GHOST is one of them. LUST? MIND, PLEASURE, DESIRE…it goes deeper than your simplicity.
Job 11:20
But the eyes H5869 of the wicked H7563 shall fail, H3615 and they shall not escape, H6 H4498 and their hope H8615 shall be as the giving up H4646 of the ghost. H5315
Jer 15:9
She that hath borne H3205 seven H7651 languisheth: H535 she hath given up H5301 the ghost; H5315 her sun H8121 is gone H935 down while it was yet day: H3119 H3117 she hath been ashamed H954 and confounded: H2659 and the residue H7611 of them will I deliver H5414 to the sword H2719 before H6440 their enemies, H341 saith H5002 the LORD. H3068
Genesis 23:8
And he communed with them, saying, If it be your mind H5315 that I should bury my dead out of my sight; hear me, and intreat for me to Ephron the son of Zohar,
The word “MIND” in Genesis 23:8 is your precious NEPHESH.
Here is one where a soul is DEPARTING:
Genesis 35:18
And it came to pass, as her soul H5315 was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
And here is one where a request is being made to God that a soul RETURNS:
1 Kings 17:21
And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child’s soul come into him again.
And then we have…LUST
Exodus 15:9
The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust H5315 shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
HEART
Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart H5315 of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Psa 10:3
For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s H5315 desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
HIS SOUL
Job 33:30
To bring back his soul H5315 from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
How can it be said, “HIS SOUL” if he didn’t HAVE ONE?
This is all from your HEBREW side of the house, not even touching the WICKED GREEK SIDE…LOL.
Psa 22:29
All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. H5315
MY SOUL AND MY BELLY
Psa 31:9
Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul H5315 and my belly.
Psalm 35:9
And my soul shall be joyful in the Lord: it shall rejoice in his salvation.
What does the word, “IT” represent? SOUL. Nephesh. Nepesh REJOICES, and is JOYFUL.
When Jesus said to the dying criminal: today you will be with me in paradise, he was referring to the future resurrection. That day, when he died, Jesus was in the grave *sheol / hades / hell awaiting his resurrection(Acts 2 :27).
The account in John about Lazarus tells us that the sisters believed in a resurrection in the future and that Jesus described death as sleep. .
Got ya. So you do believe in soul sleep. I don’t, but it is a an understandable position. Some of the OT passages definitely suggest that they believed it. I attribute this to progressive revelation. anyway, thanks!
Ewan Kerr,
Oh, the ole comma in the wrong place thing, huh?
Tell me, is there any other example of Jesus saying, “Verily, Verily, I say unto you today, comma…”?
Why would he have to use the word, “today”?
Since you believe in soul sleep, and mentioning verses in the wicked, evil Greek NT writings, especially quoting John, who wrote Revelation, you might be interested in Revelation 6:9-11. I like to title it, “Lions and Tigers and…dead souls asking questions, oh, my!” And the location of these souls was not on the earth.
And I suppose that you think that the story of the rich man and Lazarus was a parable, too? I can prove that it wasn’t.
But then we also have the witch of Endor who conjured up Samuel, the prophet. This story is related to the rich man and Lazarus, as to the location of the dead, at that time.
Now, those of your soul sleep belief think that it was an evil spirit that she conjured up.
But the one thing that is missing is that three times the chapter reads, “And Samuel said…”. It does not say, “And an evil spirit pretending to be Samuel said…”
Apparently, the dead do know things, which means that you might want to re-evaluate the interpretation of Ecc 9:5. A corps knows nothing.
Unlike their pagan neighbours, the Israelites tended not to believe in an after life but in a resurrection of the body in the last day.
The account of Lazarus shows that was still the case.
Ewan Kerr,
Oh, by the way, those dead soul’s in Rev 6:9-11 asking questions… they had not been resurrected yet. It was only the 5th Seal. But where were they located? Not on earth. But where?
Dear Ed
Perhaps if you read these same passages in a number of different translations you may get a flavour of how we translate these passages into modern English.
I spotted you asking two questions :
1) On Job 33 :30, you asked : “How can it be said his soul if he didn’t have one?
Notice how some other Bibles translate this :
“to turn them back from the pit , that light of life may shine upon them” (NIV)
“He rescues them from the grave so they might enjoy the light of life”(NLT)
“To bring his life back from the pit ” (Amplified Bible)
“in order to bring him back from the pit ” (Christian Standard Bible)
“in order to turn him back from the pit”(Holman CSB)
“to be saved from death” (CEV)
“each one saves a person’s life and gives him the joy of living” (Good News Translation)
“to turn back his life from the place of corruption” (NET Bible)
Do you get the drift? We do not speak or think like ancient Hebrews. These translations put the Hebrew into modern English. So, to answer your question, I repeat what I have already said, in this case the word soul means the person or the persons life. It does NOT suggest something immaterial within us.
2) Psalm 35 :9. You ask what does ‘it ‘represent’?
Again, let’s look how this Hebrew passage is translated into English :
“Then I will rejoice in the LORD. I will be glad because he rescues me.”(NLT)
“Then I will rejoice in the LORD; I will delight in his deliverance.”(CSB)
“I will celebrate and be joyful because you LORD have saved me.” (CEV)
“Then I will glad because of the LORD. I will be happy because he saved me” (GNT )
“Then I will rejoice in the LORD and be happy because of his deliverance.” (NET Bible)
Once again, when translated into modern English, there is NO issue or doubt as to what the verse means.
The prophets and writers of the Hebrew scriptures had a Hebrew mindset and spoke in a way that we do not do so today. They were not influenced by Platonism nor by pagan Platonic understanding of the soul.
Nor should you !
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Ewan Kerr,
Job 14:22
But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.
2 Kings 4:27
And when she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught him by the feet: but Gehazi came near to thrust her away. And the man of God said, Let her alone; for her soul is vexed within her: and the Lord hath hid it from me, and hath not told me.
Within.
Ed Chapman
It is always a pleasure to converse with others who appreciate that a different view is possible and who can disagree without being disagreeable.
Ed, Are you serious ? Read Job 14 :22 and 2 Kings 4 :27 in just about any modern Bible on Biblehub..
In what sense is St. Thomas Aquinas a “Calvinist before Calvin”???