The doctrine of the Trinity is a foundational cardinal truth in Christianity. All three major Christian traditions – Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox – throughout the history of the Church, have been united on this doctrine. A denial of it constitutes a serious departure from the Christian faith and a rejection of the biblical witness to God as he has introduced himself to us. Sadly, many go astray from the faith due to their refusal to accept these truths. It is my purpose to give a brief overview of the doctrine.
Basic Definition: Christians worship one God who eternally exists in three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, all of whom are fully God, all of whom are equal.
Now let’s break each of these down.
One God:
Christians are monotheists. This doesn’t merely mean we worship only one God, but that we believe there exists only one God. This is a basic teaching throughout the Bible (Deut. 6:4; Isa. 44:6; Isa. 45:5; Mark 12:29; 1Tim. 2:5; 1Cor. 8:4).
While this finds support in the Bible, the very definition of God demands that there only be one. In other words, “God” is not just a being to whom you pray or ascribe great worth and value, but the transcendent creator of all things (Heb. 11:3). Romans 1:18-20 informs us that natural theology and rational thinking necessarily demand there be a singular source for all things. Polytheism (which is the belief in many gods) must redefine the term “god” to mean simply “really powerful beings,” since there cannot be many ultimate creators of all things. There can be only one Uncaused Cause, only one Unmoved Mover, and only one Uncreated Creator. God is the only non-contingent (not dependent) being in the universe. Therefore, his essence is necessarily one.
Eternally exists as three persons:
Christians do not believe in contradictions or logical fallacies. Rational thinking and harmony of truth are found in the essence of God’s being; therefore, God cannot exist as a contradiction. Christians do not believe in three Gods for the reasons listed above. However, we do believe Scripture has revealed that God, while one in essence, is three in person. We often talk about this as “one what, three whos.” While this is a great mystery in the Christian faith, there are many mysteries that we are compelled to believe due to necessity and what has been revealed in Scripture. For example, we believe that God created all things out of nothing (Heb. 11:3; doctrine of creation ex nihilo). We believe that God is the sovereign first cause of all things, yet man is morally responsible for his actions. We believe that while Christ was complete in his humanity, he also remained complete in his deity (often called the “hypostatic union”). We believe that the Bible is the product of humans and the product of God. None of these, including the doctrine of the Trinity, are contradictions, but they are great mysteries. 
While the Bible does not use the word “Trinity,” we believe that it is an accurate description of what the Bible teaches concerning God. After all, the Bible does not use the word “Bible,” but we can legitimately use the word to describe a collection of books we believe to be inspired. The Bible does not use the word “aseity,” yet we believe that it accurately represents a Biblical attribute of God. God is “of himself,” in no way dependent upon humans for his livelihood (Ps. 50:7-12).
While there are many passages in the Bible which necessitate a Trinitarian understanding of God, there are a few that stand out more than others:
John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.” (NET)
Here we encounter two subjects, “the Word” (Jesus; John 1:14), and “God.” We see in this one verse the unity and plurality in what we call the “Godhead.” The Word “was fully God,” yet we also see that they were “with” each other. The Greek word for “with,” pros, implies not merely proximity, but is used to describe the context of relationship in which they exist. Jesus and God (in this case God is “the Father”) are both sharing in the same essence of deity, yet are distinct in relationship (person).
Matt. 28:19
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.”
This is often referred to as the “Great Commission.” Here Christ tells his disciples that they are to make disciples by baptizing them (as a sign of identification) in the name (a singular term describing God’s unity) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Notice that all three members of the Trinity are united, yet distinct in this baptismal creed.
John 14:8-9
“Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be content.” Jesus replied, “Have I been with you for so long, and you have not known me, Philip? The person who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”
This again speaks of the unity the members of the Trinity share with each other. To know Jesus is to know the Father. To know the Holy Spirit is to know Jesus and the Father. And to know the Father is to know Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They are all one. Yet in the very same section of Scripture, Jesus demonstrates that He and the Father are distinct persons by praying to the Father (John 17:1-26). They have been united and distinct for all eternity.
All of whom are fully God:
Don’t see the sharing of the divine essence as some sort of sharing in a type of nature. For example, my daughter Kylee and I share in a similar nature in two ways: 1) we are both humans and 2) we are both blood related as part of the “Patton” family. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit do not merely have similar natures. It is not that they are from the same species called “God” or “Divine.” It is not like a pie that has been cut into three pieces, or a three-leaf clover that can be divided into three parts. It is that they all have the exact same nature. Kylee and I are of the human species, but we do not share in the exact same essence. God’s essence is one and indivisible. All the members of the Trinity are all fully God since they share in the exact same nature..
All of whom are equal:
Christ’s essence is not lesser than the Father’s, nor the Spirit’s lesser than Christ’s. They are co-equal, co-powerful, and co-eternal since the essence of who they are is the same. While their persons may have distinction in function and thus evidence a willing hierarchy in time (John 14:28) and in eternity (1 Cor. 15:23-28), this does not mean that one is greater than the other in essence. Just as a king may have authority over his subject, this does not mean the king’s nature is greater than the subject’s. And just as a wife is to submit to her husband (Eph. 5:22), or as a pastor has authority over the congregation (Heb. 13:7), this does not mean in either case that the husband or pastor has more essential greatness or value than the wife or congregation. It simply means that in function, there is a hierarchy. Some Christians believe that the hierarchy in the Trinity was a temporal arrangement for the purpose of redemption and some believe that the subordination of the Son to the Father and the Spirit to the Father (and Son) is eternal. This is a valid debate in Christianity. However, all Christians have always believed that all three members of the Trinity are essentially equal.
Concerning the use of the word “Trinity”
Concerning the use of the name “Trinity” and other technical terms we often employ such as essence, ontos, ousia, substantia, persona, or hypostasis, the great theologian of the sixteenth century John Calvin writes:
“Where names have not been invented rashly, we must beware lest we become chargeable with arrogance and rashness in rejecting them. I wish, indeed, that such names were buried, provided all would concur in the belief that the Father, Son, and Spirit, are one God, and yet that the Son is not the Father, nor the Spirit the Son, but that each has his particular subsistence. I am not so minutely precise as to fight furiously for mere words. For I observe, that the writers of the ancient Church, while they uniformly spoke with great reverence on these matters, neither agreed with each other, nor were always consistent with themselves” (Institutes, 1.13.5).
No Christian understands the doctrine of the Trinity fully. In fact, if people are not confused to some degree by this doctrine, if someone says, “Ohhhh, now I understand,” it probably means they have slipped into heresy in their thinking. If we think about it too long, try to solve it, or nuance it according to our desire to comprehend things, we will find ourselves refusing the hand of God who has given the mysterious Trinity to us as a description of Himself. While it is impossible that finite beings can fully comprehend an infinite God, we can understand him truly. The doctrine of the Trinity does not give us the full understanding of God, but it does give us a true understanding of God.
42 replies to "The Doctrine of the Trinity in a Nutshell"
[…] Michael Patton recently outlined the basics of the doctrine of the Trinity. Give it a read if you’re looking for a brief […]
Michael,
Thanks for the great post. You did a great job elucidating the doctrine of the trinity, as well as showing how social trinitarianism fails.
I’m curious, though: I’m not certain how well your arguments work against modalism. The way you describe it, as one “what” with three “whos”, could be loosely interpreted to be modalist. Have you written on, or do you have any recommendations for dealing with, modalism?
Thanks so much!
I think this article will clarify things for you: http://www.yourlifeisyourchurch.org/youcantpraytothefather.html
I guess this will all get sorted out when he the man who is the man between men and God and King comes back and straitens it all out.
I am constantly trying to make this ‘mystery’ of yours work when, all the rest of God’s Word is so plain and simple and easy to understand; to hide from it or refuse to look it is both dangerous and arrogant. But the one thing that it has against it, no matter how you twist the verses; the multitude of clear and plainly spoken verses stating otherwise, and the fact that when presented excellent opportunities to explain, Jesus who is called the messiah, son of man, king and son of God never spoke of any such tripe. And the places where the word god is that can be grammatically connected to him:
Exodus 22:28
Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
Here, the rulers of the people are connected with gods. Their power over others gives them a position similar to that of gods.
Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
?
It required a couple generations of murder by the Roman Catholics to get this doctrine lodged into our consciousness and because it is such a wonderful ‘mystery’ the deceiver pushes it hard. This same doctrine is found in the very first world religion by way of Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz and can be traced through nearly every pagan religion since; culminating in the great whore of Babylon who wears the mystery emblems of every pagan religion on his sleeve and the fish hat of Dagon and has murdered the saints for the last 1800 years.
__________~__________
God forgive my insolence and arrogance and grant me sight that I may see and not fall. Teach me humility that I may learn and understand and have mercy on my enemies.
[…] 6. The Doctrine of the Trinity in a Nutshell […]
Indeed the Trinity of God is one of Christianity’s most profound mystery’s and doctrines & dogma’s: thankfully we have been given much help here in the Ecumenical Councils, certainly the definitions of Nicaea and Constantinople I are very helpful here, with Ephesus and Chalcedon. It is here that the EO have perhaps given the Church historical the very best thoughts and thinking on this subject! And also even Augustine believed in the “monarcha” of the Father. This subject is really everything “theological” in and of Christ, who reveals the Father, note: Eph. 2:18, “So that through him (Christ) we both (Jew & Gentile) have access in one Spirit to the Father.”
To Thomas Mears:
History over-simplified can be dangerous.
Remember that Roman Catholicism were not yet in existence when Trinitarianism took prominence in the Church.
Remember also that when Western Roman Empire was destroyed by the Germans, the invaders were largely Arians.
Btw, at the First Council of Nicaea (325), in which the Trinitarian doctrine was first finalized, this was on Eastern ground at Alexandria, and the Roman pope sent several papal legates. So it is incorrect that the Church of Rome was not yet Trinitarian! And the Church in reality both East and West have been Trinitarian even before this also. “Trinity” is first a neologism that was first used in its Greek form, “trias”, by Theophilus of Antioch (c.180) and Tertullian (d.220).
Is this a Mormon question methinks? In reality as Col. 1: 15, Christ, “He is the image of the invisible God”, also Hebrews 1:3. And we can see something of this in Genesis 18:1-3. Here is a pre-incarnate appearance of the Son of God, HE is always the “image of the invisible God”! The Theophany of God!
[…] Theology 1: The Doctrine of the Trinity in a Nutshell […]
That’s what you call “in a nutshell”?
Double-talk is hard to fit into a nutshell. And even more so for triple-talk.
CMP,
“In a nutshell” necessarily means oversimplification. I wish you would addresses the crucial matter of the Trinity in more depth. It is far too easy to rely on safe “one what, three who’s” formulations without exploration of what that means. I am not in disagreement with your post but long for more than a ‘nutshell.’
A parable: There once was a man who purchased shoes too small for his feet. To solve the problem, he cut off his toes to fit the shoes. Fitting the Triune God into a nutshell may leave some divine “toes” on the floor.
I firmly believe, as an earlier reply stated, that the Trinity is both One and Three, that is, One God, one divine essence in Three (persons, hypostases, etc.– the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) who are personal, co-eternal, co-existent, co-inherent, who share the same numeric essence yet are distinct, but never separate. However, behind each of these descriptors there is a deep aspect of the truth of the Triune God. Please, Michael, go further.
Sorry, this post reply of mine belonged to another CMP blog. But it was a Trinitarian question.
Another one of those things that christians can not agree upon!
Many get confused on this doctrine – good post – thanks
I came to your blog from the church relevant site top 200 list. They have created a tremendous forum for finding new blogs that impact people.
I hope my blog can be an encouragement to you also.
I write it for encouragement and motivation daily.
http://i-never-fail.blogspot.com
Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to watching the connections grow!
Mary,
Yours is yet another reason that neither you nor I nor anyone should be looking to Christians for answers. We should be looking to Christ. There – in Him – we will find answers.
I’ll admit that I get confused by the concept of Trinity fairly often. Every time I think I finally get it, I get confused again…
I’ve tried to understand it through 3 mental exercises:
1. how Christian Trinity is NOT the trinity gods of other religions (and by extension, how Christ is NOT “incarnates of gods” in other religions);
2. what is different between Trinitarianism and other, heretical views;
3. How Philo described Logos in relation to YHWH, and how John describe Christ in reference to Philo.
It sometimes helps….
I think another challenge of Trinitarianism is in explaining the concept of Trinity to non-Christians, where I often give the analogy of fire (Father being the visual form of fire, Son the light, and Holy Spirit the heat) while understanding that this could very well be heterodox in itself…
In the end I suppose I’m just “seeing through a glass, darkly”.
Francis,
Think of the Trinity like the Water.
We have “Vapor” “Liquid water” and “Ice”
Vapor is Water
Liquid water is Water
Ice, is Water.
The Father is God.
The Spirit is God.
The Son is God!
The Father, Generate the Spirit (Vapor turns liquid)
The Spirit process from the Father and creates the Son (Liquid Solidifies)
The Son Manifests and does the will of the Father
(You can craft anything from the Ice (no) Creation is Manifest!
The Son then goes back to the Father, having accomplished his work”
Creation dies. Water evaporates.
The example of water for the Trinity is far better than the egg and crumb pie anologies, but still is not consistent with the Trinity definition of “co-eqaul.” In what way is the state of ice equal to the state of steam or liquid water? You have three different states, or types, or forms that do not have the same properties. Is a hot vapor equal to a frozen solid? The bottom line is that the definition of the Trinity comes from man, it’s not found in Scripture. Therefore, its definition is doublespeak. Three denotes quantity in every language, and plurals mean more than one of something, as in the noun “persons.” To deny this is ubserd.
Great, informative article. But a couple of grammar corrections would make it much more readable. In the “All of whom are fully God” section-
“me and my daughter Kylee” should be “my daughter Kylee and I”
and “Kylee and myself” should be “Kylee and I”.
Here is a good resource that explains this: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/myself-grammar.aspx
The reason you can’t understand it, Craig and Francis (and many others I suspect) is not because it’s a “great mystery”. Its because it doesn’t make sense.
How could Jesus pray: “..not my will, but yours be done” if he and God the father were the same essence? How could his will conflict with that of the rest of the Godhead?
Frances
Spot on!!!
(i) In 1712 Rev. Samuel Clark published his book “Scripture Doctrine of the Trinity.
He concluded that the Father alone is God
(ii) Peter Paul and Christ himself said the same thing
In John 20v17 Christ said ” I go to my Father and
your Father, to my God and your God”
In other words Christ has a God who is also his
Father -and the same being is also our God and
Father.
Peter make the same point “blessed bethe God
and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
In 1 Cor 8v6 Paul says “for there is one God the
Father…and one Lord Jesus Christ”
(iii) Is Matthew 16 verses 16 & 17 not clear enough?
(iv) Who did Christ tell us to pray to? -Our Father.!!
(v) When something is said to be the same as another
this can normally be validated by a process of word
substitution. Just try substituting God for the word
“Christ’ in any verse. We get nonsense!
God is a prophet Mt 21v 11
Mary is the mother of God, so God has a mother-
a father -& he had a God.
Time to tell it like it is -the Trinity is GOBBLEDYGOOK!
There is ONE GOD THE FATHER and Christ is his Son.
Blessings
John
[…] that our God is too small. Ken Schenck on why we need theology. C. Michael Patton looks at the doctrine of the Trinity. Brian LePort asks whether Oneness Pentecostalism is the same as […]
[…] friends over at Credo house put this together, it is the most eloquently and best written post on the subject I have seen […]
I’m still CONFUSED about the Trinity!
“Christ now and forever’
I have just re-read “The Trinity in a nutshell” and must
commend MIchael Patton and the team on a very well written paper! It’s about as good as I have seen on the subject and I’m saddened by the fact that I have to disagree with many of its conclusions.
Over the years I was happy to go along with the idea of a ‘Godhead’ – united in one Holy spirit.
I was rudely awakened which I was told (in more recent years’) that I must believe that Christ is God, and my salvation depends on it!
Those of you who understand the principles of ‘numerical identity’ will readily appreciate my problem.
If A=B and
If B=C then
A =C.
Or If God is the Father and
The Father is NOT the Son then
The Son is NOT the Father
The above paper submits several scriptures in support of a Trinity.
First of all there are NO Trinitarian proof-verses – not a single one!
Before proceeding further, Tinitarians have got to prove that their ‘proof verses’ ‘over-ride’ Christs own clear words expressed in John 17:5 and Matthew 16vs 15-17.
Trinitarians have also to show that their ‘proof texts’ ‘over-ride dozens of explicit scriptures by other authors
For example in Luke 2: 52 we have ” Jesus grew in wisdom and stature …”
In fact Luke is full of such material.. Christ is described as ..a man….accredited by God to you… a servant of God …God raised him from the dead…he was exalted by God. etc etc.
Trinitarians will point to the Doctrine of the Double Nature of Christ, which is man-made and without scriptural support.
Trinitarians will argue that statements in which Christ denies his Omnipotence, Omniscience, and infinite goodness were only made in his ‘human nature’.
Problem is that everything Christ said was made in his ‘human nature’ – are we therefore to ignore all of his sayings?
I think I am running short of space and should continue in another post…
Christ now and forever,
You will have noted my ‘blunder’ in the previous post!
I should have said “The Son is NOT God’!! So sorry!
John 1:1 is a challenge to all of us!
One paper guides us to a web-site which purports to show a total of 81 possible translations of the first verses of John’s Gospel.!!!
The problem is to determine the meaning of ‘The Word”.
We are told that ‘The Word was WITH God and that it WAS god.
I would argue that this means that the Word was NOT a person – and the lack of definite article in the Greek suggests that it is used qualitatively.
Certainly the scriptures do NOT say “In the beginning was Christ”
Footnotes to the NAB Bible are interesting. They note that “The Logos’ combines-
God’s creative and dynamic Word
In Genesis 7 verses begin with “And God said..”
Suggesting that it was by His spoken Word that
the heavens and the earth were created
AND
Personnified Word Wisdom as the instrument of
Gods creative activity (see Proverbs/ Wisdom)
“Word Wisdom’ is therefore NOT a person or a being dependent on God, but the way God ‘acts’ in his creation… Gods self- manifestation.
Some would argue that this equates to God’s Holy Spirit.
So when we are told in John :14 that the ‘Word became flesh’ we are talking of the incarnation of Gods Word/Wisdom/Spirit.
To ensure that Christianswould not mistake this for God , we are given John 1:18.!
Some writers have stated their belief that in John 1 John made creative use of the double meaning of the word “Logos” to communicate to both Jews and Hellenists in the audience.
I personally believe that John was very precise in his use of ‘Logos’ – he could have easily have used the words which Trinitarians insert in its place… but he did not!
Every Blessing
John B
A few posts above, John B thinks that Christ denied his infinite goodness. Jesus makes no such denial in Mark 10:18 or Luke 18:19. He simply states that “No one is good except God alone.” If someone is “good” in the ultimate sense, then that person is the only God. Jesus never denies that He Himself is good. He was actually pointing to the fact that He Himself is God.
If Jesus Christ was God incarnate then who exactly died on the supposed cross? Jesus Christ or God incarnate. If it was God existing as three but one God then God did indeed die on the supposed cross. So how was Christ resurrected if God died on the supposed cross. I say supposed cross because Stauros means upright piece of timber not two pieces together. Also in the Old Testament people were hung from a tree. Also the debate I have been pulled into sometimes is God can do anything and be anything, true, I agree but if that is then indeed true why do Catholics pray to Saints and Mary? Cannot God do everything?
The truth shall set you free and examine the Scriptures as the people from Beroea did to make sure what they were hearing was true.
The Trinity is not very difficult doctrine. But to explain Him, you will need to explain everything that has not been explained. I have an manuscript that explains the Trinity exhaustively. If you need to understand it, just email me @ [email protected].
Briefly, in order to understand the Trinity, you need to first to back to the Genesis story where God says; “Let us make Man in our own image, and our own likeness”
Two things to recognize here. God says, “Let us” Meaning plural majesty of God the Trinity. I.e, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Secondly, what is the Image and likeness of God?
God is Spirit John 4: 24-25 Therefore, Man, the Image and likeness of God, was Spirit Zechariah 12:1-2
So, is God made Man in His Image and likeness, and God exists as Trinity, it also meant that Man too, was plural majesty of the Trinity of Man.
So, we have God the Trinity and Man the Trinity! These are two Spirits of God differentiated! God, and His Image.
These Two Spirit, Manifested another Spirit, Called The Christ. He was the Son of God, and the Son of Man, the Image of God. . “ For the Father who is the source of life, has made the Son, the source of Life. And because he is the Son of Man, he has appointed him Supreme Judge” John 5: 27-28 This Chris, is a differentiated Trinity of the Father the Son, and the Holy Spirit. As the Redeemer of the Human Spirit for God, He sits at the Right Hand of the Power, as a Differentiated Trinity. “But, I tell you, that from this time onward, you will see the Son of Man, seating at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the cloud of heaven” Mathew 26:64 He
That, is the Trinity who is God. We have God the Father, The Image of God, and the Redeemer of Man. If you want to know the Trinity in God, let me know.
Peter
Peter – et.al.
The use of the word ‘elohim’ in Genesis , is said by many Trinitarians to ‘show’ that God is multipersonal.
However, the word elohim is a ‘plural’ word denoting the importance of the person being addressed. Some people speak of ‘plurals of intensity’
A general comment
I find that Trinitarians –
(i) Fail to recognise that Christ is Gods divine agent and not God ‘Himself’- anyone with a legal background will recognise that immediately.
(ii)Fail to adequately distinguish between ‘nature’ and ‘identity’
Thus they tell one that Christ is God because He has a divine nature.
NATURE is WHAT we are
IDENTITY is WHO we are
God is the SOURCE of the divine nature
Christ has INHERITED His divine nature
Believers are ‘partakers’ of the divine nature 2Peter 1v4
IDENTiTY is our unique DNA – something that is not shared with any other person.
THUS
My identity is John B. and I have a human nature
Adolf HItler had a human nature.
Having the same nature as Adolf Hitler does not make me Adolf Hitler.
Worship the same God that Christ served and worshipped!
Blessings
John B.
John, you say that “However, the word elohim is a ‘plural’ word denoting the importance of the person being addressed.”
I think this is imputing a meaning that is not inferred. If it denotes the “Importance of the person” then, why did God use the word “us” as in “Let us make Man, in our own image and our own likeness”? “Genesis 1:26-29.
Again, in Isaiah God asks ” ‘Whom shall I send? Who will go for us?” Isaiah 6: 6-8
So, clearly if we are to understand and interpret this correctly, it mean that in God, there is more than one person.
When you say that Christ is God’s divine agent, you are right, since He himself stated that He had been sent by God. But when you say that He is not God himself, how do we interpret his statement when He claim, “ The Father and I, are one” John 10: 29-30. “ To have seen me, is to have seen the Father. So, how can you say, ‘ Let us see the Father’? John 14: 10-11.. This clearly indicates that Jesus was saying that “to have seen me, is to have seen God” If He is not God, why then, does he call us his children?
“ My little children, I shall not be with you much longer. You will look for me, and as I told the Jews, where I am going, you cannot come. I give you, a new commandment: love one another; just as I have loved you, you also must love one another. By this; love you have for one another, everyone will know that you are my disciple” John 13:33-35
As for “nature” and Identity” of the Christ this is it.
You say “NATURE is WHAT we are”
Nature of the Christ= The Redeemer of Man” Man, belongs to the Christ His Redeemer. That, is why the Christ is given the same honor as God. “For the Father judges no one; he has entrusted all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son, and they Honor the Father. Whoever refuses to honor the Son, refuses honor to the Father who sent Him” John 5: 21-23
As God the Son, he is honored by God, who lets Him seat at His Right Hand to judge men.
I think this is clear.
You say “IDENTITY is WHO we are”
Identity of the Christ= God the Son.
Look at Proverbs 8:22-end. It speaks of Jesus as the master worker along side God. Saying that he was there before creation, that is why God said let us make man in our image. Jesus was with God in the begining the first BORN of all creation, Collosians 1:15. Jesus is not God. He is the only begotten, first born, master worker, the one that God was most fond of, the word of God. You trinitarians make things so difficult and confusing, why because you do not examine the bible as a whole. The bible is in harmony, but when you add paganistic beliefs to it, that is where you go wrong. The Israelites never believed or spoke of a trinity. It is a shame what you have done to God, Jesus and God’s word. You have even taken God’s name out of the bible. It was there from the begining. William Tyndale’s 1537 translation has it, King James has it but now it is all gone. False god’s in the bible have their own name and yet you refuse or are ignorant to God’s name Jehovah. How are we suppose to call on his name if we do not know it. The model prayer, hallowed be thy name. Think about it.
Scott, when you say that “Jesus is not God” You should start from the premises of knowledge of God.
Who is God?
God is Light.
‘Let there be light’ and there was light. God saw the light was good, and God divided light from darkness, God called light ‘day,’ and darkness he called ‘night’ evening came, and morning came: the first day.” Genesis 1;1-5
“ I the Light, have come down to the World so that all who believe in me won’t have to stay any longer in the dark.” John 12:46:46.
God is life
“ Thus says Yahweh, your redeemer, he who formed you in the womb, I, myself, Yahweh, made all things. I alone, spread the heavens. When I gave the earth shape, did anyone help me?” Isaiah 44:24-25.
“I am the way, the Truth and the life, no one comes to the Father, except through me” John 14: 6-7
God is the Law
For from me, comes the Law, and my justice, shall be the light of the peoples. I will establish my integrity speedily; my salvation shall come like the light, my arm, shall judge the peoples” Isaiah 51: 4-5
“In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word, was God and the Word, was with God and the Word, was made Flesh, and lived amongst us”!John 1:1-3
Jesus is God from God
This is the prophecy about Jesus, God from God!!
“Your throne is from God, for ever and ever, the scepter of your kingship a scepter of justice, you love uprightness and detest evil. This is why, God, your God has anointed you with oil of gladness as none of your rivals. Psalms 45:1-7
WHO IS GOD?
God is Spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit, and truth” John 4: 23-24
What kind of Spirit?
This is what he says about Himself
“Yes, as the rain and the snow comes down from the heavens and do not return without watering the earth, making it yield and give growth to provide seed for the sower, and bread for the eating, so, the word that goes out of my mouth, does not return to me empty without carrying out my will, and succeeding in what I sent it to do. Isaiah 55:10-11
He is the Intelligently Self-Controlling Spirit. That is why Christ is God differentiated as the Redeemer of Man.
All this, Scott, is from the Bible. I quoted the Bible-nothing pagan here.
Prophets warned you guys that Yahweh will come, and He will be unique, not like the old times.
“And Yahweh will be King of the whole World. When that day comes, Yahweh will be unique, and His Name unique Zechariah” 14:9-10
Christ is Yahweh. Jesus is Ye-ho-shua. Yahweh-is-salvation!!
Where is the paganism that you allege?
Hi Peter,
I think that the one thing that Hebrews understood perfectly was that the Lord our God is ONE Lord.
It was only when the focus of Christianity became separated by time and space (hundreds of years and thousands of kilometres) from its origin that the confusion regarding the meaning of ‘one’ arises.
Imagine what would have happened if anyone suggested that ‘one’ was ‘multipersonal’ in the first century!!!
Christ himself never suggested it!
When He says “I and the Father are ONE” He does not mean ‘We are one person’
The Greek word used in this case for ‘one’ is ‘hen’. ‘Hen ‘is a neuter word denoting unity of purpose
Consider
(i) 1 Corinthians 3 v 8 ‘the one who plants andthe one who waters have a common purpose’ (hen)
(ii)Philippians 2 v 2 ‘ united in faith with a single purpose
(hen)
The deception used by Trinitarians to conceal their duplicity leaves one aghast !
See the KJV version of 1 John 5 v7 and 1 John 7 verse 8.
Verse 7 ‘ The word ‘hen’ is used to denote ‘ …and these three are one (hen)
Varse 8 The word ‘hen’is used to denote ‘… and these three agree in one’
There was a problem however – Erasmus and other middle-ages translators noted that verse 7 was a fraudulent insertion from an earlier age.
The writers of the KJV knew this yet persisted in incorporating ‘the old’ verse 7 -some say because it was the only verse in the Bible which appeared to make the Doctrine of the Trinity explicit!.
The original 1 John 54 v 7 is now ommitted from most scholarly Bibles and the sequencing of verses adjusted.
Most scholarly Bibles now accept that the Pentateuch was written by 4 authors who the describe as “J,E. D & P”
See footnotes to the NAB BIble.
The “J’ author always used the word “YHWH’ for God
The “E’ author always uses the word ‘Elohim’ (a plural noun) for God
Evangelical Protestants are outraged by this analysis. A lot has been written on this subject so I won’t go there at this stage.
I’m not sure that you fully understandthe concept of ‘Agency’ !
If I am Mr. Small and I work for Mr. Big – and Mr. Big sends me to a major customer (lets call it Coca -Cola)
then I present myself at Coca Cola and tell their manager
“I have been sent by Mr. Big. I hold his full authority in this deal – to see me is to see Mr. Big.
If Coca Colas staff menber insults me and throws me out, this is an attack on Mr. Big.!!
Perhaps you have misunderstood the meaning of ‘nature’?
When you say “Redeemer of man’ you are referring to an ATTRIBUTE of Christ.. not His nature.
Christ inherited his divine nature from His Father
The divine nature flows downwards from God. God is its SOURCE and Christ and believers inheritor and partakers.
By the way
-Who did Christ call His God and who did He pray to?
His Father
-Who did Christ tell us to pray to?Our Father
Worship no other God than the one Christ served and worshipped.
Finally I will ‘hang my colours to the mast’ – I am a Christian Monotheist
Every Blessing
John B.
“But, I tell you, that from this time onward, you will see the Son of Man, seating at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the cloud of heaven” Mathew 26:64
“I can see heavens thrown open,” He said, “and the Son of Man, standing at Gods right hand”. Acts 7;55-56
When He says “I and the Father are ONE” He does not mean ‘We are one person’
God is Spirit
“God is Spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit, and truth” John 4: 23-24
Christ existed before he became Man
‘Does this disturb you? What if you should see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?” John 6:61-62
He was of the same Glory, with God
“I have glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. Now, Father, glorify me with that glory I had with you before ever the world existed.” John 17: 1-5
Christ appeared in visions of the prophets
Here
” While I was looking at three horns, I saw another horn, spouting amongst them, a little one, three of the original horns were pulled by the roots, to make way for it and in this horn I saw eyes like human eyes, and a mouth full of boasting. While I was watching, thrones were set in place and one of Great Age took his seat. His robe was white as snow, the hair of his head as pure as wool. His throne was a blaze of flames, its wheels were a burning fire. A stream of fire poured out, issuing from his presence. A thousand, thousand waited on him, ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was in session and the books lay open. The great things the horn was saying were still ringing in my ears, and as I watched, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and committed to the flames. The other beasts were deprived of their power, but received a lease of life for a season and a time. I gazed into the visions of the night, when I saw, coming on the clouds of heaven, as it were a Son of Man. He came to the One of Great Age, and was led into his presence. On him was conferred sovereignty, honor and kingship, and men of all peoples, nations and languages became his servants. His sovereignty is an everlasting Sovereignty which will never pass away, and his kingship will never come to an end.” Daniel 7:7-14
So, see, John. we have God the Father, “One of A Great Age. And we have the Christ, “Son of Man”
This Son of Man, claimed the same authority with God!
Here
“In the Sixth year, on the fifth day of the sixth month, I was sitting at home and the elders of Judah were sitting with me, when the hand of Lord Yahweh fell upon me. I looked, and saw something that looked like a man. Downwards from what seemed like the loins, he was fire, and upwards, from his loins, he seemed to shine like polished bronze. He stretched out what seemed to be a hand, and took me by the hair, and the Spirit lifted me into the air and in visions from God, took me to Jerusalem” Ezekiel 8: 1-4…………………“ Go in, and look at the filthy things they are doing inside” The prophet watched as the elders, paid tribute to the idols. The being takes the prophet around the temple, and makes him witness the abominations. There after, the being calls out the “scourges of the city” Another angel is called and directed to go around the city, making with a cross, everyone who deplore and disapprove of the abominations. Then, the scourges are directed to wipe out all those who do not have a cross. (a cross which was the symbol of the Christ after he manifested himself) This being instructs, “ begin from my sanctuary” Ezekiel 9:1-11
-Who did Christ call His God and who did He pray to?
Christ was calling “The One of Great Age, the Father”.
-Who did Christ tell us to pray to? Our Father
As above
Worship no other God than the one Christ served and worshiped.
Christ worships the Father, and the Father worships the Christ.
Here
Then a voice came from heaven ‘ I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again!” The crowd that was there and heard it, said that it had thundered. Others said an angel had spoken to him. John 12:27-29
Here
“You are my Son, my Beloved, my favors rest on you” Luke 3:21-22
As the Redeemer of Man, all men belong to the Christ-not God the Father. That’s why God has given all authority to the Christ. He whom the Christ sets free to the Father, the Father acknowledges them as His Sons through the Christ. The Son of Man will send his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom, all causes of falling and all who do evil, and throw them into the brazing furnace, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth. Then the upright will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Anyone who has ears, should listen!” Mathew 13:41-23
“I am a Christian Monotheist”
John, you better reconsider, because monotheist who reject The Trinity” are also sold to the illogical salvation doctrine of “By Grace Alone” as if its Pauline. God save you Three Times, as a Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Spirit.
To God the Father, you are saved. You belong to the Christ!
“And when I am lifted up from the earth, I shall draw all men to myself” John 12:31-32.
To God the Spirit, you are being saved. You are on the Road to Salvation
Here
“The message of the cross is folly for those who are on the way to ruin, but for those of us who are on the road to salvation, it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18-20 .
Not yet saved.
Here
“Not that I have secured it already, nor yet reached my goal, but I am still pursuing it in the attempt to take hold of the prize for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not reckon myself as having taken hold of it; I can only say that forgetting all that lies behind me, and straining forward to what lies in front, I am racing towards the finishing-point to win the prize of God’s heavenly call in Jesus. So this is the way in which all of us who are mature should be thinking, and if you are still thinking differently in any way, then God has yet to make this matter clear to you”. Philippians 3:12-15
To God the Son, You might be saved.
Here
“ And then, many will fall away, people will betray one another, and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise, they will deceive many, and with increase of lawlessness, love in most people will grow cold; but anyone who stands firm to the end, will be saved” Mathew 24:10-13
Christ, The Redeeming Trinity
Peter
Blessings,
Peter
Trinity in Nutshell: From the Bible.
“Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And look, I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.’” Mathew 28:19-20
There is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
But, the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit is the same God.
“In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word, was God and the Word, was with God and the Word, was made Flesh, and lived amongst us”!John 1:1-3
The Word, was God, with God, and was Made Flesh. Same God,same Word.
Who is the Father
For the Father, who is the source of Life, has made the Son, the source of life, and because he is the Son of Man, has appointed him, supreme judge.” John 5:26-28.
The Father, is the Source, or Cause of Life. As the Cause of Life, and all there is, the Father is the Intelligently Self-controlling Spirit.
“Yes, as the rain and the snow comes down from the heavens and do not return without watering the earth, making it yield and give growth to provide seed for the sower, and bread for the eating, so, the word that goes out of my mouth, does not return to me empty without carrying out my will, and succeeding in what I sent it to do. Isaiah 55:10-11
The Second Member in the person of God, is the Word who was with God. He is the Holy Spirit. who is He? He is the Creator, of Gods Creation. He is the Word that Does the Will of God, Creatively. He is the Creatively Subjective Spirit.
This, is what the Spirit of God, says he relates to Man, the Image of God.
“The heart is more devious that any other this, and is depraved, who can pierce its secrets? I Yahweh, search the heart, test its motives, to give each person what his conduct and his actions deserve.” Jeremiah 14:7-10
Yahweh, was Creatively Subjective to God, and His Image. He is the Creatively Subjective Spirit.
Who is the Son, the Christ?
He is the Son of God, and His Image, the Spirit of Man.
He is the Spontaneously Manifesting Spirit. He is the Word of God and Man, made Manifest.
“No one has gone up to heaven, except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven, and the Son of Man must be lifted up, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so that anyone who believes may have eternal life, in Him. John 3: 13-14.
All this, guys, as you can see, is straight from the Bible. That, is the Trinity.
The Father generated the Spirit of the Christ, the Son of God. The Spirit proceeds from the Father, to Mary, (filled Mary), and she conceived the Christ. Its as stated; “The Holy Spirit (who proceeds from the Father) will come upon you,” the angel answered, “and the power of the Most High, will cover you with its shadow” Luke 1: 26-38 After conceiving the Christ, the Son of God is Manifested to the World. After manifesting on earth, this Son does the work of the father which is to express the love of the Father, to mankind, which is the same as Intelligent consciousness of Himself as Spirit and as a creation. Its as he stated; “ My food, is to do the will of the one that sent me, and to complete His work” John 4:34-35 Then after finishing the Work of the Father, the Christ goes back, to the Father having completed the work he was given. Its as he stated; “I have glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. Now, Father, glorify me with that glory I had with you before ever the world existed.” John 17: 1-5
Trinity is not a mystery! Its Logic=Logos=Christo-logos
Okay everyone, here it is. When you speak of the trinity, you confuse anyone and it can never be fully explained because it causes contradictions and confusion.
Exodus 20:3 “You must not have any other gods besides me”. Well if Jesus is God and equal to God then that would be another God(confusion).
Exodus 20:5b “I the LORD thy God am a jealous God”. We treat Jesus is looked upon as God and given more worship than God himself(confusion). Psalm 83:18 “That men may know that thous, whose name alone is JEHOVAH art the most high over all the earth. God alone is the most high, but if Jesus is God and equal to God and as you say existing as 3 but one God then God is not alone as the most high(confusion).
Pro. 8:22,23-24 “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way before his works of old”. Jesus was setup from everlasting, from the beginning, brought forth. God made Jesus. Jesus has a beginning as God does not. If they were equal and existing as one God, then Jesus should have been in existence all along(confusion).
Isaiah 42:8a “I am the LORD: that is my name and my glory will I not give to another”. You glorify Jesus taking the glory from God(confusion). Matthew 3:17 “And lo a voice from heaven saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am very well pleased”. If Jesus is God, why does God have to be pleased about himself?(confusion)
Matthew 4:10 “for it is written: Thou shalt worship the Lord they God, and him only shalt thou serve”. Again when you put Jesus as God you take away glory, honor and worship from God.(confusion) Also throughout the gospels Jesus always refers to God when speaking on devotion and worship, saying God did this or you should give God this, he never says “me or I”, if he was God could he not just say that, why not make a solid distinction.
Also James 1:13b states “for God cannot be tempted with evil”. So when Jesus was tempted by Satan and hence you say Jesus is God, how could Jesus really be tempted by Satan since God cannot be tempted. Would that be a real test? If I get an answer sheet from a teacher for the upcoming test and use it, am I really being tested?(confusion)
Matthew 7:21b “but he that doeth the will of my Father”. Jesus does not say my will, he says his Father’s will.(confusion)
Matthew 9:8 “But when the multitudes say it, they marvelled and glorified God which had given such power unto men”. They did not give the glory to Jesus as God but said that God had given this power to him. So they recognized it as Jesus being a man, an individual.(confusion)
Matthew 10:32-33 ‘I will confess or deny them before my Father’ Jesus does not say that he will just confess or deny them but states it will be to his Father. So Jesus answers to his Father. If he is God why does he have to?(confusion)
John 5:19, 26, 27, 30, 36 “Verily, verily, I say unto you. The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. So Jesus follows his Fathers direction, why if he is God, can he just not do what he wants? “For as the Father hath life in himself so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. “And hath given him authority to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man. “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. “But I have a greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do bear witness that the Father hath sent me.”
John 6:38, 44 “For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me”. “No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him”.
John 7:16b “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me”.
Here is one you will like. John 10:30 “I an my Father are one”. You could say, see, they are one but if we look at John 17:11b “Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thous hast given me, that they may be one, as we are”. So Jesus is praying to his Father or himself, I confused about that because the trinity says they are 3 but one, so why does one have to pray to the other, that his disciples become one as Jesus and God are one. So the disciples will become one person but be many then and God is three but one? Or, is it speaking if unity? That is the more logical option. Jesus and God are one as in union with one another, working towards the same goal, which is God’s goal. Not that they are three entities but one.
We also see in John 14 Jesus speaking of the Father being in him and he being in the Father. What we have here again is that union. They are working together as one, not that they are actually one person. In verse 28 it clearly states “for my Father is GREATER than I”. It is a clear and undeniable separation and distinction of God and Jesus as individuals. For if they were equal, how could one be greater if they are from the same? It is impossible and makes no sense, but if you look at it simply as God is God and Jesus is his literal Son. Just as in the world, there is my father and myself, we may look similar and have the same qualities and I may want to grow up and be like him and do what he does. It is the same with God and Jesus. It is a simple Father and Son relationship. This does not take away anything from Jesus, he was anointed by God and given authority over everything on earth and in heaven as Matthew 28:18 says.
In closing here are some contradictions when you have the trinity.
1. If Jesus is God, who died on the cross? If Jesus is God, then did not God die? Who can resurrect God if he is dead? Does that mean there is someone higher than God to do this?
2. Also back to Jesus’ temptation. Since God cannot be tempted by evil, then if Jesus is God, he cheated in that temptation from the Devil, knowing full well that he could not be tempted. That temptation becomes void and null, if Jesus is God. But if Jesus was a spirit creature created by God and given free will just like all the other spirit creatures in heaven, then that test would be valid.
Here are some facts.
1. Triune gods are taken directly from Babylonian and paganistic practices. We seem them throughout, that area dating as far back as we can find. God never claims to be a triune God. He always speaks of himself and as one exacting exclusive devotion and worship as also Jesus testifies to as well.
2. There is no evidence that shows that the first century Christians believed in a trinity. It was not until the Niacin doctrine that it came into being. That is because of Emperor Constantine wanting to convert the Roman empire to from paganism to Christianity.
3. It is the catholic church that has blasphemed the word of God by putting into practice these man made doctrines which Jesus spoke about that is and would happen. They put the bible in Latin a dying language that the common people did not speak so that they could force their beliefs upon the people and not give them an opportunity to search the scriptures themselves. It was not until the bible started to be translated into other languages and into English that these things became know, but be then the apostasy had taken deep root with the people.
4. You cannot have contradictions in the bible. If Jesus is God, why is Jesus always in subjection to God if he is suppose to be equal. Also the Holy Spirit is hardly mentioned as being a part of this trinity except in Matthew 28:19.
My opinion is that with the trinity there is then too much confusion in the bible when you examine the scriptures.
Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father ONLY’. How could Jesus not know if he is God?
Search the scriptures as the Beroeans did to see if if what Paul and Silas was teaching was right.
5. I am a man of humble means and in your world would not be considered a bible scholar which you so rudely pointed out in your last response, but I am guided by the Holy Spirit to be able to discern the true meaning of God’s word and take in an accurate knowledge of him and worship him with Spirit and Truth. So as long as I shall live I will never consider myself a bible scholar or teacher but as always a student of God’s word because as the day draws near he makes things known or corrects things that we did not have knowledge of before. One major thing I have accepted as a bible student is that I must always be open, accepting and obedient to God’s correction. I must never rely upon my own understanding but by God’s. (Proverbs 3:5, 6)
Thank you
Peter
You say “Trinity is not a mystery, it’s logic..”
Hmmm…
If God is the Father
and The Father is not the Son
thenThe Son is NOT God.
This syllogysm is not a series of adjectives and nouns thrown together – the ‘elements’ are three persons, three distinct identities.
Blessings
John B
John,
do you not think that it appears contradictory when God claims I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give water from the well of Life free to anybody who is thirsty; anyone who proves victorious will inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he will be my Son. Revelation 21:1-7
How can God be “the beginning and the end? What is that? So, if God claims to be the beginning and the end, then, the inference that God is the Father, and yet the Father is not the Son, must have some logic, which make the Son also God!
Remember Trinitarians, me included, state that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is God! So, just because the Father is not the Son, does not infer that the Son is not God. Three persons, distinct identities, Same God.
Also again, its not just the bible that gives information which though appearing contradictory, proves to be correct!
If you are familiar with Quantum Mechanics, and know of the “Copenhagen Interpretation” of Quantum state of matter, it claims that matter exists both as a particle and a wave. So, how can that be?
Then, we have Bells Theorem which claims that although most of our theories about reality tries to explain it as both physical and local, “No physical theory, of local Hidden Variables, can ever reproduce all the predictions of Quantum Mechanics” In that regard, its not possible to have a physical theory which is realistic and also local, that agrees with all the theory’s predictions of “Wave Particle” nature of mater.
Then, we have the predictions of the EPR paradox which claims that in a two particle experiment, distant particles appear to communicate and co-relate where apparently no message if exchanged. How can that be?
So, you see John? Its not just the Bible that has curious propositions which though appearing contradictory, are quite logical. It explains the nature of the Christ as the Paradoxical Logos.
Peter
You says” Well if Jesus is God and equal to God then that would be another God(confusion).
There is no confusion. There are three persons, in One God. The Same God, but differentiated!
You say “We treat Jesus is looked upon as God and given more worship than God himself(confusion)”
No, He told us, that we must give Him the same honor as the Father! “For the Father judges no one; he has entrusted all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son, and they Honor the Father. Whoever refuses to honor the Son, refuses honor to the Father who sent Him” John 5: 21-23
Do you not get it? Honoring the Christ is Honoring God himself! The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit is in the Christ!
You say “Jesus has a beginning as God does not. If they were equal and existing as one God, then Jesus should have been in existence all along(confusion)”
No! Jesus has no beginning nor an end!
Here Its he who says ” I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give water from the well of Life free to anybody who is thirsty; anyone who proves victorious will inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he will be my Son. Revelation 21:1-7
Here
‘In truth I tell, you, before Abraham ever was, I am’” John 8:58
Here is Jesus
“I AM has sent me, to you’” Exodus 3:14-15
Here
“ He was with God from the beginning, and through Him, all things, came to be and not
one thing had its being, but through Him.” John 1: 2-3.
You says “I am the LORD: that is my name and my glory will I not give to another”. You glorify Jesus taking the glory from God(confusion)
No! Here
“You call me Master, and Lord, and rightly, so I am. If I then, the Lord, and Master have washed your feet, you should wash each others feet. I have given you an example, so that you may copy what I have done to you” John 13:14-15
“If Jesus is God, why does God have to be pleased about himself?(confusion)
God is pleased with himself
Here
“ And God saw all that He had created, and indeed, it was good” Genesis 1: 30-31.
God is pleased here with Himself!
Thou shalt worship the Lord they God, and him only shalt thou serve”. Again when you put Jesus as God you take away glory, honor and worship from God.(confusion)
No. The Father is in the Son, and the Son does whatever the pleases the Father, and the Father honors the Son.
The Father and the Son glorify each other. “I have glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. Now, Father, glorify me with that glory I had with you before ever the world existed.” John 17: 1-5.
Who is man not to glorify He who is glorified by God?
You say; “for God cannot be tempted with evil”. So when Jesus was tempted by Satan and hence you say Jesus is God, how could Jesus really be tempted by Satan since God cannot be tempted. Would that be a real test? If I get an answer sheet from a teacher for the upcoming test and use it, am I really being tested?(confusion)
What about here?
“One the day, when the sons of God came to attend on Yahweh and among them was Satan” So, Yahweh said to Satan ‘Where have you been?’ ‘Round the earth, roaming about’ he said. So, Yahweh asked him, ‘Did you notice my savant Job “ There is no one like him on earth; sound and honest man, who fears God and shuns evil’? ‘Yes’ Satan said, ‘But Job is not God-fearing for nothing, is he?’ “Have you not put a wall around him and his house and his entire domain? You have blessed all he undertakes, and his flocks throng the countryside. But, stretch you hand, and lay a finger on all his possessions, and he will curse you to your face’ God tells Satan“ Behold, all that he has, is in your power, only upon himself put not thy hand” Job:1:6-20
You say “but he that doeth the will of my Father”. Jesus does not say my will, he says his Father’s will.(confusion)
No confusion. For Christ distinguished himself with the Father in heaven when he says; . “The Father is greater than I” John 14:28-29
But he also admits that this Father, is in the Son
“ The Father and I are one.” John 10: 30-30
You say: “But when the multitudes say it, they marveled and glorified God which had given such power unto men”. They did not give the glory to Jesus as God but said that God had given this power to him. So they recognized it as Jesus being a man, an individual.(confusion)
No confusion. Here
“Thomas replied, ‘My Lord, and my God!” Jesus said to him, You believe because you can see me. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe” John 20:24-29.
Be careful not to forget the covenant of the Lord your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the Lord your God has forbidden. For the Lord your God is a consuming Fire, a jealous God.” Deuteronomy 4:23-24
Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. John 20:17
Moses talks about “The Lord your God” Tomas calls Jesus “My Lord, and my God” Jesus talks about “Your God, and my God”
You need to understand who God is, for you to know why He is worshiped in the Father and in the Son. God worships the Son, who are we not to?
‘I will confess or deny them before my Father’ Jesus does not say that he will just confess or deny them but states it will be to his Father. So Jesus answers to his Father. If he is God why does he have to?(confusion)
No confusion, if you were to understand that the Christ is differentiating his Father in heaven from his Father on earth, the Spirit of Man. Man, is a Father to the Christ as the Son of Man. That’s why Christ warns you. “I tell you, most solemnly, in so far as you did to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me” Mathew 25:39-41
Christ is God who has made Man his Father. And Christ honors His Father, Man and God.
Verily, verily, I say unto you. The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. So Jesus follows his Fathers direction, why if he is God, can he just not do what he wants? “For as the Father hath life in himself so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. “And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. “But I have a greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do bear witness that the Father hath sent me.”
Answer:
As I have told you above, Christ is the Son of Man, and the Son of God. “For the Father, who is the Source of life, has made the Son, the source of life. and because he is the Son of Man, has appointed him, supreme judge” John 5: 26-27
Christ is God the Manifest, He is God who manifests creation. “ He was with God from the beginning, and through Him, all things, came to be and not one thing had its being, but through Him.” John 1: 2-3. He is God who manifests amongst his creation, as a creation. “No one has gone up to heaven, except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven, and the Son of Man must be lifted up, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so that anyone who believes may have eternal life, in Him. John 3: 13-14. He manifested as a creation of God and his Image, the Human Spirit! Therefore when he says that “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise” Its true, Christ manifests according to the will of the Father, Man and God. That’s why he warns you. “Meanwhile, let the sinner go on sinning, and the unclean continue to be unclean; let those who do good, continue to do good, and those who are holy continue to be holy. Very soon, now, I shall be with you, again, bringing the reward to be given to every man, according to what he deserves. I, am the Alpha, and the Omega, the First, and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Happy are those who will have washed their robes clean, so that they will have the right to feed on the tree of Life, and come through the gates into the city” Revelation 22:11-13.
“ If Jesus is God, who died on the cross? If Jesus is God, then did not God die? Who can resurrect God if he is dead? Does that mean there is someone higher than God to do this?.
Do you still not understand?
Here is the Father and the Spirit, distinguishing himself from the Son “And at once, as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit like a dove, descending on him. And a voice came from heaven, ‘You are my Son, the Beloved; my favour rests on you.’ Mark 1: 10-11
Here is the Son, declaring the unity of the Trinity in the Son. ; “Father, may they be One in us, as you are in me, and I am in you, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me. I have given them the glory you gave me, that they may be One, as we are One. With me in them, and you in me. May they be so completely One that the world will realize that it was you who sent me and I have loved them as you loved me” John 17:21-23 Three persons, differentiated in One God.
You say; Also back to Jesus’ temptation. Since God cannot be tempted by evil, then if Jesus is God, he cheated in that temptation from the Devil, knowing full well that he could not be tempted. That temptation becomes void and null, if Jesus is God. But if Jesus was a spirit creature created by God and given free will just like all the other spirit creatures in heaven, then that test would be valid.
You have to understand that God did something he had never done before in the Christ. Christ was life, made visible “ Something which has existed since the beginning, that we have heard, and we have seen with our own eyes, that we have watched and touched, with our own hands, the Word, who is life, this is our subject. That life, was made visible: we saw it, and we are giving testimony, telling you of the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been made visible to us”. 1 John, 1-3
Before the Christ was made manifest, God did not know himself as a creation, and man did not know himself as a creator, the image of God. That meant that before the Christ was made manifest, God had never experienced consciousness of himself as Man. It also means that God had not experienced pain like men! When the Christ said, “no one is good but God” He was refusing to be honored with God, because he had first to fulfill the will of His Father, Man and God. That mean that until he experienced all that was human and defeat it for God, he could not claim the same goodness of God the Father in heaven.
As the logos Trinity, and the Son of God and His Image, the Christ had to also fulfill all that was divine in Man, so that he could claim to be a good God, for the Image of God. He had to attain the status of the True Image of God, and the True Image of Man. To attain the true image of Man, he has to surrender to the will of men, and the will of the human Spirit, the Devil. That’s why, he had to succumb to human temptations, and by reason and logic alone overcome them for God His father in heaven. That’s why you find that the questions he deals with in the wilderness are basically very human, and very logical. For it’s the same questions we are dealing with every day. If you are the Son of God, turn the stone into bread” And you also wonder, “ If you are the Son of God, why are you unemployed? If you are the son of God, why are you sick? If you are the son of God etc. etc. He had to achieve form God, all that was human. That meant that he had to be the least of all the people, so that no man could later say, “Christ did not go through this, so, my suffering is unique” He had to ensure that whatever man experience, he as now the one to be the Master to Man, had to go through the same. Basically, is this not what Solders go through to make it to be the Commander? Which five start general never went to boot camp? So, basically, wilderness was also a boot camp for Christ. So, when he finished his own evaluation of the human divinity in himself and divine humanity in his logos nature, He then had to come and deal with men like himself and go through whatever they threw unto him, and overcome it for God. He had to deal with the creation of Man which was contrary to the creation of God, and overcome it for Man and God. This creation, was sin, because of the evil nature of Man, which matured as death. Christ had to live sinless all his life, even if men conspired wickedness on him. For inn order to destroy death which was a creation of Man, he had to live a righteous life for God unto death. He had to die for Man, so that he could life for God. And until he suffered unto death for Man and still love man and forgive him, He could never claim to be a good Man. BUT, THAT, WAS WHAT HE DID ON THE CROSS. And that, is what he does always, though unseen.
So, in Jesus, God achieved what was lost through Adam and his linage, the House of Jacob.
You say: 1. Triune gods are taken directly from Babylonian and paganistic practices. We seem them throughout, that area dating as far back as we can find. God never claims to be a triune God. He always speaks of himself and as one exacting exclusive devotion and worship as also Jesus testifies to as well.
No.
Here is the Trinity.
There is God the Father who is in heaven. He is Spirit. “God is Spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit, and truth” John 4: 23-24. This is the Original Spirit of the Trinity. He is the one who declares” Let us make Man, in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild beasts, and all the reptiles that crawl upon the earth’ God created man, in the image of himself, and in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them. God blessed them, saying, ‘be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and conquer it. Be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of the heaven, and all living animals on earth’ “Genesis 1:26-29. That, is the first Trinity.
The Second trinity is Man. Man, is made by “us” in the Image of the Trinity
So, Man, is a Trinity, just like God. in Him, is the Father, the Son and the Spirit.
The Third Trinity, is Christ. The Son of Man and God
In this Triune Spirits, each has a Trinity in Himself as I have explained.
You say: “ You cannot have contradictions in the bible. If Jesus is God, why is Jesus always in subjection to God if he is suppose to be equal. Also the Holy Spirit is hardly mentioned as being a part of this trinity except in Matthew 28:19
Christ, is subjective to Man and God. He is equal to God, because He is Man, who has fulfilled all that God desired in the world, and therefore He seats besides God on his right hand side. Which other man has given this honor? which Angel? None. See here, heaven and earth whorshi[p the Lamb and the On Seating on the Throne. “ In my vision, I heard a sound of an imense number of Angels, gathered round the throne and the animals and elders, there were tens of thounsands, times tensa of thousands of them and thousands upon thousands shouting,’ The Lamb, that was sacrifised is worthy to be given power, riches, wisdom, strength, honou, glory, and blessings” Revelations 5:11-12
Did you hear that?!! I hope that clears the whole isue of Christ and why we worship him.
Worship Him! He is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit together as God.
Peter
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