I’m confused. Just when I think I start to figure things out, God says, “Calm down Michael.”
As many of you know, I often like to take a break from my church and explore what is going on in other places. Today was one of those days. Due to my confusion, I don’t have a pulpit with me right now. Therefore, I am comfortable revealing names and places. I went to Life Church today. This is not so unusual as I have been there before. The main campus is just a couple of miles down the street.
Life Church is one of those things that makes someone of my tradition scratch their heads. I have scratched a big portion of my hair out today. Life Church is somewhat of a phenomenon. It has become quite legendary due to the way church is done. They are more technologically savvy than Paramount pictures. Let me just briefly describe the service today to help you out.
This summer the theme has been “Life Church at The Movies” (or something like that). When you walk in there are huge posters that are done in the theme of Toy Story. These are the kind of posters that we would have to create a separate line item at the Credo House to cover. They were visually stunning. But that is not even half of it. In the lobby, everything is decorated according to a movie theater/Toy Story theme. “Decorated” is a bad word as it was much more than just decoration. It was a movie theater entrance. And a nice one at that. On the other side of the lobby, there were artifacts from the Toy Story set. You would not believe it. They had a twelve foot etch-a-sketch. I think it actually worked! Andy’s room was set up perfectly in a separate roped off area. They even had an eight foot tall game machine like the one that the aliens were taken from in Toy Story 1 (you know . . . those guys who say “you have saved our lives, we are eternally grateful”). I could go into more detail, but you get the idea.
Wait…I have some pictures.
Etch-A-Sketch to Left
Alien Game to Right
The idea during this movie series is to show twenty or thirty minutes of an inspirational movie and then draw lessons from it. Today the movie was “The Blind Side.” Last week it was “Walk the Line.” The messages were great. The typical motivational seminar type stuff with some Christian justification behind it. Not too much scripture. Certainly not any expositional preaching.
Now I need to back up a bit…
I am from a tradition that is in a love/hate relationship with this kind of stuff, with hate tipping the scales more often than not. Its called by many names: “seeker-sensitive,” “seeker-friendly,” or the more pejorative “seeker driven.” I went to seminary when all this seeker stuff was hotly debated. Rick Warren’s Purpose Driven Church was the book to read and your spirituality was based on how much you hated it. The biggest and, for many, most definitive criticism of the “seeker” mentality is that while there is evangelism that happens, discipleship can hardly be found. Like a friend of mine often says, “Tastes great, less filling.” Michael Spencer used to call this movement the “Evangelical circus.”
Now, I have to come clean and admit something here. There is a sense in which those like me actually want these type of churches to fail. That is hard for me to admit. In fact, I am thinking about taking that line out. But it is true. “See . . . I told you so” are words that are often on the tip of my tongue ready to be interjected at the slightest hint that the “seeker” churches have compromised or failed. What a terribly sinful entanglement that I have. I admit it. There is no justification for that.
Okay, back to the story…
I sat down by some big biker dude. He was awesome. Long hair, bandanna, and long ungroomed beard. For a moment, I thought he might be a prop for the set. Then I looked across the church and saw that he was not so uncommon. None of these people looked like “churchy” people at all. The majority were under forty and dressed in the same thing they were going to wear for the rest of the day (or the same thing they wore last night). Did I mention flip-flops? Lots of flip-flops (including mine). Concerning my biker neighbor, I did not know anything about him. I did not know what sins he struggled with, how his marriage was, or what he did the night before. However, I could tell that he was glad to be there and he seemed to really love Jesus. I was glad he was there too. In this place, for better or worse, the curtain between the church and the culture was wrent in twain. The atmosphere was one of grace and excitement.
Was the lesson impactful? For me, it was a 3 on a scale of 10. Sure, I felt a bit of conviction “to go,” as the message said, “and find someone in need and be an influence upon them.” But it is one of those things. In order for it to really have any chance of lasting beyond a fly in the ointment of my conscience for the day, the conviction level must be above a 6. Otherwise it is just one-day-guilt. I normally respond better to those messages that are grounded in Scripture and illustrated by a movie rather than grounded in a movie and illustrated by Scripture. (There, got my one cheap shot flowing with snarkiness out. I feel a tincy bit better.)
However, there was something different going on there. Something that was intoxicating. Something that my spirit had been deprived of but I failed to realize it until now. A spiritual anti-depressant if you will. It was the power of the Gospel. But not this alone. It was the power of the Gospel as it was proclaimed to so many people who had never heard it. From what I understand, there were hundreds, even thousands, of unchurched people there. Seems right. It is a “seeker” church. That is what all the production is for: to get unbelievers to come hear the message of Christ by whatever means (within reason) necessary. We were informed that over four-hundred people accepted Christ last week during the “Walk the Line” message. Now, I take those numbers with a grain of salt. However, I would not be surprised if there are not a lot of people who are being ushered into the kingdom at this church. Whatever people might think of Craig Groeschel (the lead pastor) and his philosophy of ministry, he gives one of the clearest presentations of the true and uncompromised Gospel that I have ever heard. It is this that is so exhilarating. To witness the evangel (the Gospel) being proclaimed to so many in need is a vitalization, for me, of what we are about. You must understand, being from this part of town and growing up living on the other side of the Christian train tracks, these people represented hundreds of my friends and acquaintances that I grew up with who I could never get to come to my church or show up for a Bible study, but were sitting there willingly listening to what Christ has done for them and how to be forgiven.
It has been a long time since I have wanted to stand up and cheer, but today I jumped off the wagon of evangelical stagnation and was reminded about why we are here. It is this vitalized celebration of my heart that has confused me. I want with all of my stubborn being to say how wrong Life Church, the new Mecca of seeker churches, has got it. But I can’t.
What I have been coming to realize over the years is that there is simply no one way to do church. I think that this is a strength of Evangelicalism. We can stretch in many directions. Evangelicalism has its arms open wide to a varied set of liturgies, from high church formality to Toy Story lobbies. Neither do I don’t think that there is one transcendently right way to do church. I am not arguing for seeker churches, but I am not arguing against them either. They have their place, and I think it is about time to recognize how God is using them in spite of all our “yeah, buts.” There are some churches that are good at the discipleship, but lack in outreach. There are some churches that are good at community, but lack in strong teaching. There are some churches that are good at connecting with the past, but have no connection to the present. And there are some that are good at converting the lost, but don’t know what to do with them after.
I have yet to find the perfect church. I am coming to think that our territorialism is the biggest problem. We want to throw rocks at the church across the street for not having the strengths of our church, while not recognizing our weaknesses. We have a distorted self-defense that clinches its fist when people are not doing things the way we think they ought to. While I think churches should be as balanced as they can, maybe the individual churches should unclinch their fists and begin to hold hands with those who don’t share their strengths but do cater to their weaknesses. I am not so sure that we should see ourselves as “belonging” to any one church.
When Paul would write to the churches, he never addressed any particular group or gathering within the larger whole. He did not write one letter to the “First Baptist Church at Corinth” and one to the “Evangelical Community Church at Corinth.” While I am sure there were many individual house gatherings by that time, all having strengths and weaknesses, he wrote to “the church at Corinth.” No territorialism. No rocks. No preference. Everyone saw themselves as parts of the whole. It is the whole that needed the message. This is how he wrote to all the churches. I figure that were he to write to my church, it would be addressed to “the church of Oklahoma City.” The problem is that we are so busy throwing rocks, criticizing each others’ weaknesses, and territorially worried about our own church’s budget, that we would probably not recognize the other churches and share the letter.
Do churches have gaping holes of weakness? Certainly. Is discipleship a hole in Life Church. I think it is. Does Life Church need to change their style. No. What they are doing is incredible. Where else would my biker friend feel welcome? They, like all local churches, need to recognize that they are only one part of something bigger. Having gapping holes of weakness does not mean that we have to have gapping holes of neglect. If Christ-centered churches saw themselves as a part of a larger community of churches, then we could all work together to provide the balance that is needed. Then people like me could do more celebrating than criticizing.
Today, God helped me to celebrate the “Evangelical circus.”
162 replies to "My Experience Today at LifeChurch.tv"
mbaker, please understand – I’m not saying your form of worship or evangelism is wrong. What I am questioning is your insistence that lifechurch is wrong. You are free to attend whatever church you wish. Praise God if you are blessed by a ministry, even if they do things differently.
I’ll try to be clear again, I am NOT saying my way is right. I do believe God can use it, just as I believe God can use your way. My point is that style is not something to get worked up about.
In comment 81 you said this: “My objection is that we shouldn’t have to run our churches along the line the lines of an amusement park, or movie set to attract people people to the gospel.”
No one is asking you to run your church that way. But neither should you ask someone else to run their church your way
As I see it, you are the one pointing a finger at someone – lifechurch and anyone of like mind. And I do think that’s wrong. It sounds legalistic, judgmental and self-righteous, though I doubt you mean it that way.
The errors I mention above seem to me to be the same as the errors of the Pharisees and Jesus held nothing back in describing the seriousness of their error.
I don’t mean to be harsh or abrasive, but I do think my point is valid. Apart from very clear biblical support, we have no grounds for condemning Lifechurch’s approach.
Feel free to dislike it, but please stop short of condemning it.
Dave,
“Feel free to dislike it, but please stop short of condemning it.”
Eerrr, haven’t you been listening? I have not condemned it, i have only disagreed that is the only way to go to reach the lost.
WHAT A GREAT STORY !
Bravo. Now let’s get some thelogy into the LifeChurch program!
I think we all should write the NW OKC pastor’s email address that he himself included in the above blog and encourage him and Michael to meet and get the message to Craig that people don’t need to fall through the cracks as they are doing at LifeChurch. They only give out a “get-started” kit and then have home groups that are mostly social in content. Bring a basic theology class to LifeChurch through Credo House and teach an adult program.
[email protected]
I attended a branch of this church for a year and I saw the July 4th “At The Movies”. It was the kind of message that tears your heart out. But I can say that on a usual basis, not when at the movies is on, the church is very biblically doctrinally based. After all, Andy Stanley, is a mentor of Craig’s. Andy is the son of the famous Charles Stanley, pastor. Andy has a megachurch in his own right. The Lifechurch is huge in scope in its outreach, worldwide. You can spring up a church anywhere in the world via internet with their missions setup. It is explosive. They have no debt and are opening up new campuses in multiple states.
I first attended LifeChurch after attending a very strong non-denominational bible church in my area. For awhile I went to the bible church service then drove over to Lifechurch same morning. I noticed the abundance of older folk at the bible church. I noticed the virtual sea of 20 & 30 yr olds at LifeChurch. My comment was “so here they are”. I don’t like the LOUD rock style music. And they always perform a secular piece “I use that word loosely” at the top of their music set, then go into repetitive praise songs.
But as I was attending I realized that the mentality of the saved people there in the home lifegroup was right out of our culture. They were nice people but not grounded in the Word as a way of life. One leader at the church was questioning whether to use a magician at a…
Let me begin by saying that I am not for one denomination or another; what I am for and represent is being a True Follower of Christ, and find that most of the denominational breakdown is of the enemy himself.
As you stated in your accounts of attending LifeChurch.tv’s NW Campus; you also don’t agree that Paul would have written the letter to Corinth to just one Church, and he certainly had it right in addressing all as ONE because to the best of our knowledge there were no labels put on Churches up to that point in time.
Denominations come from man…more fairly; from the disagreement of many men, on what Jesus said and what He didn’t. Some believe this, some believe that…they took true Christianity from it’s origins and polluted it with what Pastor Craig has often referred to as “Cafeteria Christianity.” That being where they took bits and pieces of what THEY (Not God) liked and tossed aside what they (Not God) didn’t like. As it is today in many Churches…some music is acceptable by some, but not by others…some feel comfortable with a Pastor in a suit and tie; while others are just fine with a Pastor in a T’shirt or Polo and jeans.
I can say this personally about LifeChurch.tv – that discipleship is in no way shape or form, lacking. I grew up in Assemblies of God Churches most of my childhood, and never got anywhere near the encouragement, mentoring or discipleship that I’ve received over the last 3 years in my affiliation with LifeChurch.tv.
Nor had I ever HEARD God’s Voice until nearly two years ago and from that voice – I was led to lead a small group (LifeGroup), and help encourage others in their faith walk. That group is full of people who are not afraid to be transparent and lay all of their junk on the table…and we are very missional minded as well.
In fact, upon returning from a recent visit to Oklahoma City and taking in an experience at every campus there; I came home on fire for God, and where are the locals who care…
mbaker writes:
I guess I just felt comments such as these:
#82
#87
and #93
conveyed not just disagreement, but disapproval. If I was wrong and your position is that the techniques used by Lifechurch and others CAN be effective tools for evangelism and therefore DO actually have some validity, then I guess we’re on the same page after all. :^)
Michael,
I would highly recommend the book ‘Radical’ by David Platt. Very challenging, and the author is a mega church Pastor with a very different take on how American Churches should be.
Jason
Hi,
Just wanted to respond to a couple of things you mentioned in your blog (and not in mean way…just wanted to shed some light on some things you may not know)…
Discipleship is actually not lacking at LifeChurch, and it is in fact a very big focus…you may have missed it while you were there because it is called by a different name (again, keeping in mind those “seeker” people who don’t know what the heck ‘discipleship’ is). Discipleship is actually what the “Talk It Over” discussions are all about and are meant to take place within a weekly LifeGroup (which is always strongly encouraged to go deeper in your walk with the Lord).
And while you didn’t say this in your blog, it was insinuated (and even actually posted by another commenter) that the Gospel was watered down, this actually is not the case either. While the “Blindside” message was a little atypical, Craig actually uses plenty of Scripture in his sermons on a normal basis…just enough for the average person who has never been to church before to grasp what he is saying. Isn’t that what we’re supposed to be doing? People, your neighbors, as you mentioned, who have never stepped foot in a church feel comfortable enough to bring all of their baggage, all of their sin & lay it at the feet of Jesus because maybe for the first time they get & understand it!
I am a Bible college graduate, a pastor’s wife, & even come from a Pentecostal background. While LC in itself is not that way, I have still grown tremendously from Craig’s Bible-based teaching & am proud to be a part of something that is making such a powerful impact around the globe through OnePrayer, Church Online, FREE church resources, etc. We, as a church, should be more focused on unity (like the OnePrayer event) instead of pointing our fingers & shaking our heads at the church next door. What may reach some will never reach all, so let’s all do the specific job that we were each called to do & see people come to…
” If I was wrong and your position is that the techniques used by Lifechurch and others CAN be effective tools for evangelism and therefore DO actually have some validity, then I guess we’re on the same page after all. :^)”
Well, close enough anyway. I think it all depends on whether folks find them an attraction or a distraction. All those little clouds, for instance, would be a total distraction for me. I’d have to keep my eyes closed the whole time, and not just in prayer 🙂
Seriously though, as long we also can agree that it should not be the expectation that everyone HAS to like those things or think they’re particularly relevant in a church setting, that’s fine by me. If I don’t like that kind of themed setting and it distracts me or anyone else from worship, then I shouldn’t feel I have to apologize for it either.
Jason J in post # 80
Somehow I missed your comment yesterday and it was a good comment. In particular you said:
“In essence: I’ve always struggled with this notion people have that there are all these people out there who are wanting to know God but our methodology is somehow standing in the way of God being able to save people. I just don’t buy that.”
I agree with that statement, I also think that I do not have to have the same demographics as another to speak plainly or be understood and connect with another human being, especially concerning universal truths. Grandparents do this with thier grandkids all the time.
The fields are white.
“I think it’s disgusting to see people where flip flops in church.” -Bill
You would have loved the first century church. 🙂
Michael, very honest stuff here bro. I hope you continue to allow God to do his work in your heart as i can hear you wrestling with different issues.
Jesus said of the commandments the two greatest are these
“Love the Lord your God with all your soul, mind, heart and strength” AND……”Love your neighbor”
Someone asked, who is my neighbor? Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan, who was NOT helped by the Priest, or the Religious person but the unpopular, unlikely Samaritan.
I say this to simply remind myself and you, to put on LOVE which binds all things together. If we cannot LOVE each other HERE do you think it’s going down in Heaven?
Jesus be glorified, only him, not the method or the process.
M_
Enjoyed the reading. Same of my thoughts on a couple of churches here in my hometown. I have found that really each Real Christ Centered Church holds a divine purpose. I have found that churches like the one you visited are great family and new believer churches. As for me, I really like something I can soak my spirit in. Blessings.
JasonJ (Post #80)
Well said. I agree.
I agree with Charley. I know Scott Williams. I would like to know his take on Craig Groeschel’s blog “Too Deep” posted last Feb. It was a somewhat subtle backhanded swipe at a local pastor/teacher & friend of “C Michael Patton” for his uncompromising approach to teach Scripture as it is. That is, not watered down to make it more palatable for the intellectually lazy & feel good Gospel types.
Wendy, I so wish our church was more like your church. It seems that your priorities are Christ’s priorities. Our church was historically very evangelistic but had been swept up into believing that our mission is to redeem culture. Therefore, the focus is on deeds of mercy, social justice and somehow ‘fixing’ the culture without first introducing them to Jesus. Our pastor is a big fan and reader of N.T.Wright (and the like), who has been influential this shift. Evangelism has become a dinosaur word loaded with negative baggage. It’s like there’s this aura of ‘our church used to be doing it wrong, and our current pastor (of 20 years) has been working to ‘fix’ it. I’ve attended our church for 40 years and all I can say is that things were a lot more right in the past than they are now! I seriously doubt that teens and twenties…and even those in their thirties at our church could even share the gospel to lead someone to a saving knowledge of Jesus. I’ve been voicing my concerns recently with elders, but those who don’t agree are micromanaging the situation and keeping the meetings to the smallest possible numbers (two elders to one concerned person). One gets the feeling that they simply disagree…don’t think that we have valid concerns and are just trying to ‘preserve the unity of the church’. It’s somewhat frustrating because our voice is not heard by the larger body of elders thus we have no influence.
Judging by some comments our pastor has made at the end of his past two sermons however, it seems that some of what we are saying is getting back to him. He asked the question, “How many times in your life have you shared the good news with a nonbeliever?” And, “Have you ever lead anyone to become part of God’s kingdom (to conversion)?” Apparently this drew quite a response (I think he received a number of emails) so he addressed that at the end of this week’s sermon. He is certainly allowing the word ‘evangelism’ to…
…carry negative connotations (of confrontational style)…which I don’t think is necessary, but at least he has opened the conversation which is quite interesting to say the least!
I’m not against attending to social issues but I think that it has become a huge distraction from the verbal proclamation of the gospel, and people have gotten the idea that we’ve found a new and better way to invite people to the kingdom…thus they frown upon evangelism and I’ve been frowned upon by many for even bringing it up….without even mentioning the ‘e’ word!
There are a handful of others who share my concerns and we are beginning to discuss matters openly and with pastors and elders. Two elders share my concerns. One resigned recently because he didn’t feel like he was getting anywhere with the pastors and he felt alone…and eventually like a ‘whining child’. I talked with him Sunday for the first time and he now knows that our thoughts are entirely inline. I also told him of the other elder who is equally concerned about the same things (which he had not known). Anyway, it will be an act of God to turn our church around…and return to our roots (the first pastor of our church–about 90 years ago was a tent-preaching evangelist who was asked to become our pastor).
Thanks for sharing about your church and it’s attention to follow-up (discipleship).
The Other Charley,
I read “Too Deep.” I don’t know of any pastor who moved here and started a church at that time. I don’t know who he could be talking about, but I agree with him. Some people are teaching seminary classes from the pulpit and that is just beyond justification in our day and age.
Michael, if you wouldn’t mind reading what I just wrote to Wendy….I would love it if you would write a blog addressing this trend in the evangelical church. I spoke with Dean McConnell from Fuller seminary recently about this and he fully agrees that this is a concern and something he has taken note of as well (he is an evangelist/scholar). We agreed that it is not necessary to stop aiding non-profits in the community, but so very important to attend to verbal proclamation…and realize that deeds don’t in any way provide a good substitute for evangelism. I now realize that there is a whole theological framework which is operant in this shift of emphasis which is questionable at best. The phrase ‘human flourishing’ and ‘shalom’ and ‘redeeming culture’ are key phrases mentioned frequently from the pulpit. The gospel is watered down and barely visible. Our pastor will speak of the New Heaven and New Earth…and our future resurrection …and grace, but he doesn’t talk about the wrath of God to come and about Hell. So, Jesus is reduced to more of an option in a way…for those who feel the need for Him. Not entirely compelling! Our pastor always leans toward ‘nice-nice’ in that he doesn’t speak much at all about the ‘bad news’. He is always trying to be palatable to the culture.
What the world wants from the church is our good deeds and attention to the needy and oppressed. What they DON’T want is Jesus. So, we’re playing it safe and making the community ‘like’ us. There isn’t any opposition that’s for sure! But, no one is coming to Christ….our kids aren’t really hearing the gospel, nor learning the urgency of sharing it…and our church is shrinking…not growing.
ISTM that the Sunday gathering is primarily of believers 1) rehearing and recommitting themselves to the words of Jesus and the Apostles, as well as things from the Old Testament, 2) being exhorted and exhorting one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs and prophecies and pneumatic/charismatic words, and 3) sharing a fellowship meal of remembrance and proclamation of Jesus’ death and resurrection and return. There is a place for non-believers in such a gathering, but it’s primarily for believers. If an unbeliever or unlearned person should enter or be invited to such a meeting, s/he may expect to be confronted with the Living Christ or His Spirit by the words and behavior and worship and testimonies of the members, which should not so much conform to the culture as express something that comes from another Realm.
In an ideal world, of course.
And, the above would require the members and the service to be structured/unstructured to allow such to happen.
What happens Monday – Saturday depends on the needs and jobs of the members, I guess.
Susan,
I don’t know about your church, but from what I read, it sounds very emergent. I, like you, think the church should be involved in the community and “justice”, but when it takes the place of the Gospel preached being the most important thing, we have lost our mission. Most of the people who are concerned with “justice” and the social aspects of the Gospel, seem to be ashamed of the Gospel proclaimed. Its just another form of liberalism with a different postmodern basis.
LifeChurch.tv is a great example of doing social things in the community with the PURPOSE of sharing the Gospel. When OKLA had all that flooding a couple of months ago, LifeChurch had so many voluteers lining the streets repairing people’s houses it was amazing. And you know what? That was seeker friendly! But the end is not to fix a house, but to share the Gospel.
So many people are so concerned with desserts and appitizers that they forget about the main course. That is not too nourishing.
One other thing. It might have been a little irresponsible of me to say I think LiveChurch lacks in discipleship without any further explanation or justification. While I have been there many times and I was actually with Craig in 94 when he first started, went to the original campus some, I am still an outsider.
However, the reason why I say that I think that they lack in discipleship was because of others who have told me.
And when I say discipleship, I am talking about discipleship of theology. Would they know the rich history of our faith? Would they use the “father, son, husband” (modalistic) illustration for the Trinity and think it is good? Would they be able to defend their faith against the New Atheist? Would they be moved by any wind of doctrine about the atonement? Would they be able to articulate why the health-wealth Gospel is completely destructive to true Christianity? Would they be able to say why they know Christ lives other than “he lives within my heart?” Do they know what happened at the council of Nicea? Chalcedon? Do they know when and why the Reformation took place? Could they discribe the difference between the Old Testament and the New? Could they articulate how they know the Bible is the same as when it was originally written?
To be fair, there are not many churches AT ALL that could boast of such. But these are the things that challenge our faith later after the initial conversion has taken place. These are the things that come up in evangelism.
Paul said,
” 28 And we proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, that we may present every man complete in Christ.
29 And for this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me. (Col 1:28-1 NAS)”
Being complete in Christ, according to Paul, has a lot to do with teaching. Are there qualified teachers, Lifegroup leaders, and pastors who labor in study to “teach every man”? What are their qualifications?
I don’t know…Just asking.
It’s funny this topic popped up. like you Michael, I also live literally 1 street from the main campus of LifeChurch.tv, and I also attended the “At The Movies” series and watched Coach Carter. Also, I use LifeChurch as a spiritual vacation (in a nice, refreshing way) from my Charismatically intense church. I have struggled with the same paradox of relevance vs. Orthodoxy/praxy. On one hand i commend LC for their appeal to the un-churched, pre-churched, and post-churched!!! I have sat next to people on numerous occasions thinking “How did they get you in here!?”. Also LifeGroups are outstanding (I attend a smaller church, and we use Lifegroups for pre-marriage classes). The youth ministry is on another dimension, the people are genuinely friendly and inviting, and refreshments in the lobby are yummy! My opinion of Lifechurch the ORGANIZATION is 5 stars……But.
As for LC the living organism of Christ, I don’t have a negative opinion, I’m just “weary”. First, understand I come from a charismatic background, but It would be nice if the believers came to God’s house with a reverent desire to praise and worship him instead of being entertained (He’s only the creator of the universe!). Second, leave your bible home, you won’t need it! (lol). I felt uncomfortable being the only person on my row logging a bible in a sea of pamphlets. Lastly, the same issue you alluded to….As Ed Stetzer would say, I’m sure the last thing you would find is a systematic theology book on the premise. LC.tv may have specialized groups for deeper biblical study, but i haven’t found that brochure quite yet!……..All in all, I agree local churches serve their specific purposes in the communities they are planted, I just feel it should be in every churches DNA that: Jesus is the Hotdog and we are his condiments, not We the center and a splash of Jesus to make it taste better. I still love LC….
[…] Michael Patton on his recent experience at LifeChurch (not its online campus, but one of its offline campuses. The comments section is quite active on that particular thread, and you may find it helpful to read through). […]
CMP, I know this thread is getting old, but I hope you see this and respond.
As my wife and I enjoyed a couple of glasses of wine (just to reference another aging thread) we were talking about your experience and began wondering what it was, really, that drew your biker friend and others to the church.
Was it really the Toy Story theme, the gimmicks as they have been called? Or was it
Maybe what drew the crowds is that, as you said “Groeschel …. gives one of the clearest presentations of the true and uncompromised Gospel that I have ever heard. It is this that is so exhilarating.”
Is there really a connection between the “gimmicks” (not derogatory, but just for want of a better term) and the response?
Or is it that Lifechurch just has a joy and an excitement, even an urgency, missing from many churches these days? I know I want to be involved in a church with the characteristics you describe above, Toy Story or not.
I was once involved in a church that had that joy and excitement. We were seeker-sensitive, and growing by leaps and bounds, but I’m not sure that attitude brought the joy and excitement. I think those characteristics were a result of the fact that God was moving in a powerful way. It may have had nothing to do with the fact we were seeker-sensitive.
So, from your experience, do you see a clear connection between the intoxicating atmosphere and the Toy Story props? And which one of those was actually drawing the crowds?
Dave, it was definitely the connection between the clear presentation of the Gospel and all the people there who are part of my community that I could never get to step foot into a church.
Were they their because of the Toy Story theme in particular? I don’t know. But I imagine that they are there because of the bridges that are consistantly built and the buzz that this creates. LifeChurch is just one of those places that has become somewhat of an attraction. It is “cool” to go there.
Thanks, Michael for responding to my concerns. I like what you said, and I might even borrow some of your phraseology. It does sound like Lifechurch is doing things right in many ways.
I had a conversation with Australian author Michael Frost on his wall recently. He is another author who has had some influence at our church. He told me that he believes it IS the mission of the church to redeem the culture. He suggested to me that we should do kind deeds of mercy toward nonbelievers not because we want to share the gospel with them (as if this is a self-serving motive) but so that we can expose them to the reign of Christ. OK, so that didn’t exactly sit right with me and we had quite a little discussion on his wall. I’ve heard this sort of thinking expressed by ‘the young and intellectual’ at our church as well.
Since when is it wrong to do kind things for someone in hopes of being able to share the life-giving message of the gospel?!
Frost didn’t have a response for some of my questions. I read a book review of his resent book, Jesus the Fool (posted on his FB), heralding him as the N.T.Wright of Australia (or something to that effect).
Susan, that’s interesting. It goes to motives. I followed a link from a thread on Theologica recently. The link took me here:
http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193785
Now, I think most of the posts there are pretty goofy, but there is something we can learn from them. Note comment 3, and there are others like it. The commenter viewed Christians as disingenuous, even deceptive, when they made nice only for the purpose of evangelism. People see through us when we are insincere, and it does not advance the gospel.
I was in a discussion once with a woman who was trying to witness to a coworker, but she said it was hard because the coworker was living with her boyfriend and the woman was (in her words) “disgusted by it.” I can’t help but suspect the coworker saw through the friendly mask into the woman’s heart. How effective do you think her evangelism was?
Personally, I think we should love because God tells us to – simple obedience. But even more, because God develops love in us, helps us see the lovable in each person. We do kind things for people because we really care about them.
I know this is very nuanced and the distinction is small, but I think we should do nice things out of love and still hope to share the gospel, rather than just wanting to share the gospel. I think it really is possible to desire to share the gospel for self-serving reasons. If nothing else, it feeds self-righteousness.
Hi Dave Z,
I would suggest we need to be careful using pragmatism. I believe our only guide should be scripture regardless of what reactions we get. At the risk of being pragmatic myself, I will say that I can share many stories that resulted in the opposite reaction from the woman that was disgusted. The bible says people will be offended by the gospel. It’s those times that God allows me to see the conviction of the Holy Spirit at work that encourages to press on in sharing the gospel. Yes, we are commanded to love and we are commanded to proclaim the gospel – should they not BOTH be at the forefront of our mind? Who doesn’t need to hear the gospel?
Of course it’s possible to desire to share the gospel for selfish reasons…we are falliable, I’m sure it happens often – I’ve become aware of it in myself at times. I don’t believe there would be an argument from scripture that would say that’s that is a reason not to have the desire…only to recognize the impure motive, repent and ask God to change your heart and continue on.
Just my thoughts
Susan, I have been encouraged by your comments!
Blessings
I was in a discussion once with a woman who was trying to witness to a coworker, but she said it was hard because the coworker was living with her boyfriend and the woman was (in her words) “disgusted by it.” I can’t help but suspect the coworker saw through the friendly mask into the woman’s heart. How effective do you think her evangelism was?
If the witnessing woman was “disgusted by” the coworker’s cohabitation, maybe she should read “Revelation” by Flannery O’Conner. It’s hard to witness to a lost person from a place of feeling superior to or disgusted by them.
Or maybe I misinterpreted who was the “disgusted” one.
Didn’t D. L. Moody say something about if you’re going to tell someone that they’re in danger of going to hell, you should at least have tears in your heart (i.e., it should come from genuine heartfelt concern and not from a superior judgmental “I told you so” position).
I think I misinterpreted who was the “disgusted” one, sorry. I think my comments still apply.
For clarity, the Christian woman was disgusted by the coworker’s living arrangement.
hmkjr:
I interpret Dave Z’s comment to mean:
I (Dave Z) was in a discussion once with a woman (W) who was trying to witness to a coworker (CW), but she (W) said it was hard because the coworker (CW) was living with her (CW’s) boyfriend and the woman (W) was (in her [W’s] words) “disgusted by it.” (I.e., W found it hard to witness to CW because W was disgusted by CW’s cohabitation.) I can’t help but suspect the coworker (CW) saw through the friendly mask (of W) into the woman’s (W’s) heart. How effective do you think her (W’s) evangelism was?
I.e.:
Dave Z was in a discussion once with W who was trying to witness to CW, but W said it was hard because CW was living with CW’s boyfriend and W was “disgusted by it.” I can’t help but suspect CW saw through W’s friendly mask into W’s heart. How effective do you think W’s evangelism was?
(I see from Dave Z’s clarification that I was correct.)
[…] Michael Patton on his recent experience at LifeChurch (not its online campus, but one of its offline campuses. The comments section is quite active on that particular thread, and you may find it helpful to read through). […]
As I said to author Michael Frost, why not do something kind for someone just because you see that they have a need and want to help them….if you want to address motives? Why is it better to do something kind because you want to expose them to the ‘reign of Christ’? I then proceeded to tell him that I thought it was rather odd to say that it was inappropriate to do kind things for someone in the hope of opening doors to share the gospel. I told him that I guess I tend to have the mind-set with nonbelievers that everyone I meet might potentially be someone I will have the opportunity to share Christ with. This definitely causes me to be cautious about how I interact with them. I don’t want to do or say anything which might jeopardize the relationship. I believe that the MOST loving thing I can do for a nonbeliever is to share the gospel with them. In fact, it is often my loving concern for a person’s well-being which motivates me to speak those first bold (sometimes scary) words of truth.
I can’t speak for others but I don’t think that I struggle with wrong motives when it comes to speaking the gospel. Incidentally, my next-door-neighbors have been living together unmarried for about 20 years…although she claims to be a Christian. I don’t know what her status is with God (but I’ve had my doubts). I have talked ‘gospel’ with her…especially when she found out she had cancer and was concerned that it might be because of her sinful lifestyle. She told me a few days ago that they are finally going to marry, tomorrow! She said that she has never felt right about the fact that they’ve lived together unmarried and she was looking forward to finally ‘getting this part of her life right’. I suggested to her that this was her time of repentance then. She agreed. I never felt disgusted by her cohabitation, but I might feel some disgust talking with an actively engaged child-molester..if I was sharing the gospel with them.
I agree with hmkjr ( in other words) that sometimes evangelism is a matter of simple obedience to Christ regardless of our internal feelings about some. And what was it that John the Baptist said to those he proclaimed the coming of the messiah too: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to repent?” Sounds like he was pretty disgusted with them and didn’t even try to hide it 😉
Thanks for the encouragement, hmljr!
And again, Paul’s words:
“Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in this I rejoice.”
Seems that Paul realized that the gospel “is the power of God unto salvation” and that that power is not limited to our presenting it with perfect motivations!
I LOVE that! That means that if we obey, and speak, He will bring the harvest in due season….even if we labor begrudgingly at times. Obedience is key.
Susan writes:
See, now you’re agreeing with me :^) – you do something kind because you simply want to help, not because it will open a door.
I think we’re pretty much on the same page. I said I was splitting hairs and I think the difference between our points of view is very small. I admire and applaud your interactions with your neighbor. I wish everyone had your heart for evangelism.
Mr. Patton,
I wasn’t going to comment except for the fact that the currents of your heart reflected mine at various points. The seeker mentality is short fused and fickle – much like some seeker evangelism. But one cannot sow and reap on the same day – although the converse is true.
God meets us where we are at. Hence,
12He said also to the man who had invited him, “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. 13But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”
15When one of those who reclined at table with him heard these things, he said to him, “Blessed is everyone who will eat bread in the kingdom of God!” 16But he said to him, “A man once gave a great banquet and invited many. 17And at the time for the banquet he sent his servantc to say to those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’ 18But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a field, and I must go out and see it. Please have me excused.’ 19And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to examine them. Please have me excused.’ 20And another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ 21So the servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house became angry and said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly to the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in the poor and crippled and blind and lame.’ 22And the servant said, ‘Sir, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.’ 23And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled. 24For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my b
But to do something nice for someone who is on fire, without the ultimate purpose of putting the fire out isn’t really THAT nice.
Feeding, clothing, and having mercy are wonderful in and of themselves for those who don’t believe that the person is on fire.
Exactly! Well-said, Michael. Could you maybe get up in front of our church and say that sometime? Deeds of mercy are treated like they are the ‘end’ at our church. And this is referred to as bringing about ‘human flourishing’ (a term I’ve grown weary of).
….as people continue on their path to Hell.
P.S. Dave, you took me out of context. I was simply taking a look at the logic behind Frost’s statements. He was suggesting that doing good for someone in order to share the gospel with them was a faulty motive, but that a better one was to do good in order to introduce them to the ‘reign of Christ’. I took it back to the simplest motive…kindness purely for the sake of meeting a need, (in order to logically question HIS stated ‘pure’ motive). Then I proceeded to say that I thought it was odd to say that doing good for the purpose of sharing the gospel was a faulty motive, and I asked him what made his motive better. He didn’t respond.
Again I will say, sharing the gospel with a nonbeliever is probably THE most loving thing that a believer can do for them. It’s a matter of life or death…..not that the world will see it that way, however.
Just a quick response to a few that have made the comment about this not being “CHURCH”. First I think sometimes we forget that a place is not the church but Christ Followers are and secondly this may have already been addressed but I am too ADD to read all of the posts so I am not sure but if you understand the systems of LifeChurch.tv you would probably know that for Christ Followers their “CHURCH” time is during their weekly LifeGroup where they get into deep discussion and prayer for one another and break bread together. I think that you would also find that their heart for what they do on Sunday mornings is not for a Christian to walk in on Sunday and check their “I CAME TO CHURCH CARD” but rather to reach out to the lost and connect them to Jesus who died on the cross for them… I think that too many “CHRISTIANS” out there are looking for someone to feed them what they want when they want when they actually need to be feeding themselves and reaching out to the Lost, Broken and Disconnected that they are surrounded by… GIGATT…
Act 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. 43 And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. 44 And all who believed were together and had all things in common. 45 And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. 46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
I am a partner of the church in the picture. Anyone is welcome, I am not sure what your church is like but let me tell you why I go. Growing up in traditional churches I noticed a certain crowd there. They all had on suits and ties and look their best (still looking in the bible to see where it says we should do this). The atmosphere was legalistic and very unwelcoming. So I wanted to find something different. Something that welcomed me for just wanting to worship God as I am. Something that allowed me to walk into a place feel welcomed and get your “meat” “milk” whatever people want to call it and apply as I see fit. I wanted to find a church that believe the church doesn’t exist to be fed but to feed the unchurched. Not what I expect others to want. I believe I could go and sit in any church and point out positives and negatives and post them but I have to take a step back and realize some people enjoy that kind of church. If that is you then please enjoy it and let those of us that want to get out in the streets and meet people where they are and lead them to become fully devoted followers of Christ go and do that. God is big enough to be the Soverign God of all kind of Churches. One isn’t more right than the other. As long as we are all center on Christ and Allow ourselves to be used by him.
Here’s what I was getting at way back up in comment number 13. HT to “Truth Matters” at bloodtippedears.blogspot.com where I found this. Of course John MacArthur says it far better than I ever could:
Churching The Unchurched
from TRUTH MATTERS by Truth Matters
“Churching the unchurched is an absolute fallacy – it is like purposing to let the tares in. It is absolutely bizarre to want to make unsaved people feel comfortable in a church. The church is not a building – the church is a group of worshiping, redeemed, and sanctified people among whom an unbeliever should feel either miserable, convicted and drawn to Christ, or else alienated and isolated. Only if the church hides its message and ceases to be what God designed the church to be, can it make an unbeliever comfortable.”
John MacArthur
Leave it to the “chief of the nicolaitans” (those who love to have the preeminence over the people) to find something to say against those who are preaching to people “just escaping those who live in error” (those who are being drawn by the Father). I will say this to all; John MacArthur is a snake. He wouldn’t recognize God the Father’s voice if it was “written on a wall” for him. He will be one of those in in Matthew 7 asking questions of the Lord in that day unless he repents of the harsh and fierce spirit of which he is led. If any man has not the Spirit that is from Christ, he does not belong to Christ at all.
I think it all depends on what you mean by “churching.” I would agree that trying to get people to come in and understand and enjoy Christian fellowship, worship, deep theological teaching, and the Lord’s supper is rather difficult. However, is getting them in and giving them the Gospel bizzare? If that is the purpose of these churches—to save the lost—then I don’t find this unbiblical at all.
The issue is to get them into fellowship and discipleship after they are saved.
“the church is a group of worshiping, redeemed, and sanctified people among whom an unbeliever should feel either miserable, convicted and drawn to Christ, or else alienated and isolated. Only if the church hides its message and ceases to be what God designed the church to be, can it make an unbeliever comfortable.”
True, and that’s the point. This church is doing anything BUT hiding the message! As Michael reports, he heard one of the clearest presentations of the gospel he had ever heard that day. An unsaved person would be sharply confronted by that type of preaching….not made comfortable. It really leaves for no ambiguity, but rather the nonbeliever is forced to either accept or reject the message. I doubt that many nonbelievers (rejecters) would continue to attend THAT church for long!
On the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit could have quietly empowered the disciples, and then they could have gone their separate ways and slowly changed the world.
Instead, the Holy Spirit came in like a violent rushing wind which drew a crowd. Then the crowd was further amazed when they heard Galileans speaking various languages. Those events gave Peter the opportunity to preach a gospel message which led 3000 people to be saved.
I don’t see any problem with setting up a Ferris wheel on the front lawn of the church if people hear the truth when they get there and are not just fed cotton candy.
Gee, you sound like Chuck Swindoll!
[…] last couple weeks, maybe I have had too much time on my hands and my brain is just too relaxed. Michael Patton blog about a similar issue a last month, you can read his post here “My Experience at […]
When I go to an Italian or Mexican restaurant, why do they have thematic artwork and music playing? To create an experience and ambience.
That is all these churches are doing with their “decorations” that go along with the series topics. They are enhancing the experience the way people are used to experiencing it in the rest of the culture.
Of course you could get a perfectly good meal at a restaurant with just a table, chair and a good server. You don’t need all that other stuff to get the meat.
But it just wouldn’t be the same would it?
Come and dine.