Will is dressing up as a ghost for Halloween. I was shocked. He has his Indiana Jones costume that he wears everywhere. I thought at least he would choose the Storm Trooper costume. I have given up on him being a superhero (Batman, Vigilante, Green Lantern, or any other DC character). Sigh… but a Ghost? Where did that come from?
My Fundamentalist right pinky toe started to speak.
Toe: “You know what is going to happen if he dresses up as a Ghost.”
Me: “No, what?”
Toe: “Satan.”
Me: “Say what?”
Toe: “Satan will have a foothold. You and your family will have compromised to evil.”
Me: “How so. I don’t get it?”
Toe: “Ghosts are demons. Or at least they are demonic. Therefore, your son is taking his first step toward practicing demonology. It is a form of Satan worship.”
Me: “Say what?”
Toe: “Exactly, you have already compromised and you don’t recognize it. Next thing you know, Katelynn and Kylee will be dressing up as witches.”
Me: “To what end?”
Toe: “What?”
Me: “To what end? So what? Who cares?”
Toe: “I want a new master. You can just go watch Harry Potter for all I care.”
Yes, then there is that. Christians on Halloween. Scared to celebrate. Some with more than their pinky toe doing the talking. You know the ones. They are the only ones in the neighborhood who have their lights turned off. “Oh, here come the kids. They are going to come to our door. If we open it, we will have compromised and, in effect, told them that Satan is my friend, that Satan is my pal. Turn off the lights and HIDE! It is the only Christian thing to do.“
Ahem…please. Help us.
I can’t believe I am going to say this but, WWJD? Really, what would Jesus do? Can you see it? Jesus with his lights turned off on Halloween? That would be the Jesus history never knew. That would be the Jesus of western fundamentalism. The one who is not a friend of sinners and tax gatherers. The Jesus that was never accused of being a drunkard. The Jesus who looked from a distance at the wedding of Cana waiting for the sinners to wipe the dust off their feet before he talked to them. The Jesus who saw a child dressed up as a Ghost and said, “I can’t take this anymore. It is not worth it. Give me that stone so that I can turn it into bread.”
Mark Young, my friend and former missions prof at DTS (now the president of Denver Seminary), used to talk about this in his missions 101 class. Oh the shame of all of us students who turned off the light. We left the class crying looking for little witches and ghosts to hug. His thesis: Christians are not Christians on Halloween. Not because they have compromised and participated, but precisely because they don’t participate. The one day of the year where children (“Permit them to come to me…” Mark 10:14) were attempting to come to us and we shut the door and turn off the lights. We left the class in tears and began to plan what we were going to be for Halloween.
Toe (yes, I’m back): “But…but…but…It is not about the lights being on. Its not about giving out candy. Its about participating in the evil deeds of darkness. Don’t you know the roots of Halloween?”
Give me a break. Who have you been reading? Whoever it is, stop. First of all, how many kids do you know that are into witchcraft, Satan worship, or necromancy? What happened? Your eight-year-old was walking down the street in her witch costume and thought to herself: “I suddenly feel myself tempted to say a chant and worship Satan”?
Toe: No, it happens subtly. You know, like with Harry Potter.”
Yeah, that is right. In twenty-first century America, I can see how much satanism has grown because of Harry Potter and Halloween. Witchcraft is the primary thing that young kids are having to recover from. Its not sexual promiscuity, its not our greed or materialism, its not moms and dads who can’t demonstrate commitment and love, its not a compromise of the Gospel. Its witchcraft. Its our kids becoming ghosts on Halloween.
Sorry. Will is going to be a ghost. You can turn off your lights.
(Oh, and one more thing. Don’t just give out tracts…Shame, shame. Give out the best candy in the neighborhood. Let people know that you are the house that is not cheap.)
138 replies to "Jesus with His Lights Turned off on Halloween"
Poster # 44, Just to flesh this out a wee bit more, I understand what the issues can be and still feel that the trick or treating is not an evil in and of itself. Albeit though the thing that has changed and probably is more terrific are the costumes and make up that have morphed since I was a doing the hobo thing back in the late 60’s. I must say that the make up and costumes are very life like and surreal with a twist of gothic eerie demonic flavor that would scare the —- out of you. We are going to Kings Dominion this year with our 7 yr old and we plan on taking her out of there before dark, simply because these folks are out to scare people, perhaps not all costumes. But I bet you me that some will look like they came right of hell’s house and those can cause a mind to wander and wonder about the darkness and all that it entails. There is a fine line here. It is one thing to neighborhood and trick or treat, or perhaps a costume party. But surly it can get a bit too far off course. Some folks simply like the demonic look and perhaps they do not understand the reality of good & evil in light of a biblical world view. So while it’s fun and games, it also could be a reality. How do we know exactly what demons look like?
Remember the movie “Storm of the century” by Stephen King That was surreal enough to believe it could be, get the point
Oh no. The integrity of this post has just been compromised. Will is no longer going to be a ghost, but he is back to being a Stormtrooper.
Oh, also, I just added a poll.
Well, I guess now you really have problem to deal with, Michael, a little Hitlerite on your hands! 🙂
Awesome! It’s taken some time to release the fundie out of my soul. But slowly each year I began to understand how unnecessary the separatist position is.
Halloween does not open you up to the occult. Dabbling in the occult opens you up to the occult.
PS: Mark Young’s lecture on this was great. I wish every Halloween-is-evil Christian could hear it.
Let me clarify a couple of things that were taken waaay out.
(1) I never said that trick or treating was evil (as quoted by Vance). I simply stated that I did not feel that involvement in the Halloween festivities was Christ honoring and so my family chooses not to engage in them.
(2) I didn’t say anything about HP or LOTR. I never mentioned that one was okay and the other was wrong. I’m assuming they were being used as examples for the sake of arguement. Please correct me if I am wrong. But even so, why bring them up as examples if they were not used in the first place?
(3) There is huge difference between celebrating All Hallow’s Eve and Christmas & Easter. While dressing up is not inherently evil it is the motive in which a person chooses to celebrate. Cheryl mentioned a couple of good points about those who do celebrate it in an evil or occultic way.
(4) Final point: My comments were simply to make people aware that spiritual forces can and are indeed focused upon children. Some children (though not all) seem to be much more aware and are highly prone to follow through on their inclinations. Again, I was one of those kids, even as young as 7 or 8 I remember thinking a lot about those kinds of things. That was the springboard that took me to the place that I eventually landed. My comments were never meant to be taken as judgmental or condemning; simply as awareness of what does lie out there.
Hm. Very interesting discussion. I see the point of both sides, but I also see a lot of strawmen. Couple brief thoughts… Obviously, the ‘trick-or-treating leads to Satan worship’ argument is a slippery slope fallacy. No ones arguing that. Please stop rebutting it. Also, the ‘Christmas and Easter (etc.) were once pagan holidays too’ argument will only work when Halloween is adopted by the church and made about Jesus. This is clearly not analogous. Please stop using it. And lastly (and most importantly), I see a whole lot of negative arguments flying around for the celebration of Halloween, but no positive ones. And before you label me a ‘fundie’ and begin hurling the jokes (some of which have been quite good), know that I am almost totally on board with the original post. That said, I see a whole lot of defensive, ‘there’s nothing wrong with it,’ ‘it won’t lead to anything’ kind of arguments, while those showing positive support (from Scripture or otherwise) for the celebration are oddly scarce. But perhaps not so oddly. A friend of mine recently challenged some friends to show from Scripture how celebrating Halloween through things like haunted houses and scary movies was a good idea. Not surprisingly, silence ensued. I think this is the crux of the issue. Maybe it’s just my Bible, but Phil. 4:8 doesn’t have anything in it about murder, violence, gore, occultic imagery, etc. As far as I can see, this issue, like so many others, is less about what is acceptable for the believer and more about what is best. So, positive arguments, anyone? By the way, I love the idea of passing out the best candy. Christians are so cheap.
I’m afraid there are some cold hearts here… While we should celebrate our freedom in Christ, and participate if we feel free to do so in God-honoring ways, if someone has a problem with it, and their conscience won’t allow them to enjoy that freedom, we are to be compassionate and not try to convince them that their conscience is wrong… Romans 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
So with that, while it is okay for some people to participate in events that occur on Halloween, some people should not.
Romans 14 continues: 13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Above all, don’t flaunt your freedom in other’s faces, and don’t try to convince someone that your conviction should apply to them. I think that’s what the Bible is trying to say… Love, love, love, all you need is love!
Michel,
Wow, your brush sure paints a wide swath! Since when did you become so narrow minded?
Gee, where is the biblical support for any so-called “good” idea like movies, bound books (i.e., codexes rather than scrolls), recorded music, pianos, Christmas, Easter, Good Friday, Mass, mega-churches, special church buildings, pastors, head pastors, youth groups, youth pastors, worship leaders, music pastors, fiction books, cars, electricity, mechanical farming. By that criteria even the Amish and Old Order Mennonites are a bit too worldly.
And stop hiding behind doors and going “boo” to children or others. That has no scriptural support as a good idea either.
Christmas and Easter are excellent analogies, because the principle involved is not one of converting pagan holidays to Christian ones, but that the pagan roots of any festival or celebration are determinative of whether Christians can celebrate.
Vampires, werewolves, ghosts, zombies, skeletons, mummies, Frankenstein, ogres, fairies and the like are not Satanic, demonic or occultic because they have nothing to do with how satan and real evil spirits operate in this world. They are cultural creations (so yes, C. Michael, I am not in principle opposed to ghost costumes, though my kids still can’t have them). They may culturally associated with other scary things that go bump in the night like Devils, but that’s about it.
Some people celebrate the new moon, some don’t. To each his own (well, except for Arminians. All Piper-heads know that Arminians should not be allowed to teach).
Wavering between a ghost and a stormtrooper? C. Michael, haven’t you taught your boy about the dangers of being doubleminded? It’s always best to pick one side (preferably on teh basis of irrational biases like “I like the white helmets a lot”) and then stick with it regardless of the evidence. Hmmm, and there’s the theological issue to consider: is it better to blatantly be a minion of the devil, or to disavow any personality to the spiritual realm. That is, if one is not going out dressed as a Christian figure (St. George killing the dragon), is it then better to be a Hindu or a Bhuddist?
Your posts, CMP, always seem to lead to deeper theological issues. Thanks.
regards,
#John
Michael,
Amen bro. And “Nuff said.” I’m pulling out my zombie outfit from 2 years ago. And YES…our house has the BEST candy on the block. Chocolate bars, baby! Full size.
PS: no tratcs from us…puhleeze. Evangelize thru relationship not gimmicks.
Yes, yes, and mo’ yes! Thanks for this brotha! This was definitely on my heart this morning and I will be talking about this tomorrow at my CD drop party!
Christ up!
Reppin His Name,
PoK
You bring up a good point #John about dressing as some Christian figure if you’re going to celebrate halloween in a Christian way.
I’ve been to several alternative Christian parties and seen kids decked out as skeletons, pirates, and other outfits which might be considered “occultic” by some, but neither at my door or in a church party have I yet to see any Christian kid come as Jesus, or one of the apostles, or even a wise man.
One what certainly think that Christians who object to regular halloween costumes would take note.
Also, how about movies and television programs Christians let their kids watch that contain violence (think NFL and hockey for instance) and never bat an eyelash.
Steven, my post was not in response to yours at all. In fact, I had not even read your post. I just skimmed through the comments and then added my own thoughts on the subject in general. I brought up Harry Potter because Michael had mentioned in his original article.
The reason some of us ridicule the halloween to satan worship slippery slope is not that some people on this blog argue for it, but because there is a significant subset of evangelicals and fundamentalists (evanjellies and fundies?) who do. It’s craziness to think that Satan is somehow more active on halloween night. Is he not maximally active every day of every year? It’s not like he goes on holidays or takes naps. Is it that God partially withdraws his hand every year based on the cultural events of one people group so that Satan can be more active? Does satan specially assign demons to follow around kids dressed up in red devil costumes? Do demons like to camp out in yards with tombstone and bone and zombie displays, over yards without such decorations?
Though everyone is at liberty to treat new moons and idol meat in their own way, I think it is far better to participate in cultural events than to withdraw completely. But participate in a way that is not, for example, gory or closely associated with evil. Dress kids as hobos or clowns or bugs. Decorate your yard with cobwebs and spiders. Give out good candy, but please no tracts, that is not participationg in a cultural event but merely a hijack of a cultural event and does not give Christians a good reputation but, in my opinion, creates an unnecessary barrier to the gospel. And all christians end up getting saddled with the reputation created by tract givers. I’d rather nonChristians hate me for being against abortion than think I’m looney for giving out tracts.
John….you should hear him beat-box. One word…WOW!
Lindsey, re #265
I would pay on iTunes for a download of that!
Why can’t everyone participate or not participate in halloween activities without being ridiculed by the other side? I don’t participate. That said, I don’t find it necessary to talk down to those who do. My friends and family know my stance and respect it. I don’t turn out my lights or hide. I just don’t answer the door. How is that a poor witness? I don’t answer my door to people I don’t know on any other day, why should I on halloween? It’s not like I get a lot of random doorbell ringers on any given day, and since I live pretty far off of the road and there are only 3 houses on my street, we don’t get many trick or treaters in our neck of the woods.
No one has to take part in Halloween activities. No one is being forced not to. Do people make this big of a deal over whether or not folks put up Christmas trees? When you try too hard to convince someone of your side, you end up looking like you’re really trying to convince yourself. Why be so anxious to pull someone over to “your side”? Everyone is perfectly entitled to do what they like (as long as it’s legal), and neither celebrating nor not celebrating halloween is a crime.
SW, I don’t think this is about condemning others for their convictions and choices, but arguing against when those WITH such convictions attempting to condemn those who don’t share them. I have no problem with my church having a “Fall Festival” (although I think it is silly), but I DO have a problem with them telling me that my children should not trick-or-treat.
Let’s face it, the tone of most of these posts arises as a response TO condemnation by fellow Christians.
Nita, as I mentioned in my response to SW, it is not the decision not to celebrate that is the problem, but the simple fact that SO many in the Church today are out there actively condemning a celebration of Halloween and treating (explicitly or implicitly) their fellow Christians who DO celebrate as if they are lukewarm or compromising Christians.
Yes, some of the this discussion has been about whether it is acceptable or not, so those who think it is acceptable will be explaining exactly why they think the other side is wrong (and having a bit of fun with it along the way). But, really, out in the real world, which side is more condemning and judging of the other? I would say that the Halloween-haters are much more vocal and judgmental (not to mention a bit self-righteous).
Vance,
That’s my point. Neither side needs to be condemning. I don’t think halloween is an issue of salvation. Get worked up about those matters, not this stuff.
Vance,
I agree with you, and Dr. Mike in #22. I don’t consider myself a wicked depraved wretch because I don’t have a real issue with celebrating halloween, or not.
Simply arguing over halloween, or celebrating any other holiday for that matter is silly. It’s no different than an anti-war Christian saying Christian veterans shouldn’t celebrate Memorial Day, or vice versa. As far as the stumbling your brother issue, it would be hard to know in that case who was stumbling who!
The Bible says all things are permissible, but not all are profitable. I think the decision of whether or not something like this is profitable for Christians to indulge in should rest strictly with the conscience of each individual family.
I’m not a vegetarian, but it doesn’t mean I can’t eat and enjoy both meat and vegetables, without making my vegan Christian friends stumble, or vice versa.
Nita,
“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that you [should/shouldn’t] celebrate Halloween.”
[…] people to a much better oct. 31st happening, this time of year, i came across a great blog post here concerning those who think participating in halloween is an endorsement of satan worship and baby […]
Nita and mbaker: agreed and agreed.
I just wish my church (and so many other Christians) also agreed.
Interesting blog that I found on my awesome Reclaiming the Mind toolbar Daily Theo Reader (shameful plug). Loving the toolbar Michael.
http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2009/10/halloween-schmalloween/
I’ve enjoyed volley after volley of argument and debate, some fun, some not so fun.
To me, it seems the core issue that brings all of this up, is hypocrisy. All people deal with hypocrisy in their lives in some way or another.
If your kids get to watch violence and potentially blood while watching sports, then, it seems like hypocrisy to say that halloween is evil. I’m not saying there is no relationship to pagan or occult practices in the roots of the holiday. I’m just saying, be clear about what the issues are.
Too many Christians (which is where I see most of the ‘You Can’t do that’ mentality come from) focus on blatant ‘bad’ things, while they do nothing about the subtle sins that are dealt with daily. Don’t focus on kids getting involved in the occult on a daily basis, when you aren’t doing anything about that on any other day.
Casting Crowns has a song “Slow Fade”.. It reminds us that habitual sin doesn’t occur all at once, certainly not over a single day like Halloween. If we are truly concerned with children becoming entrenched in the occult, why is it only worried about on October 31st? If it is such a big threat, then it should be worried about all throughout the year.
Since, it takes a while to get entrenched in these types of thnigs. If someone is going to become involved in the occult, it’s not going to be because ‘Halloween made them do it’. It’s a much more systemic issue. The issue is more that no one was sharing the love of Christ in the person’s life (on a regular basis), showing an alternative, and caring for them so that they didn’t feel alone and powerless. Most of those that I have read about that get into the occult, is because of a desire to belong, or to gain power. Both of these issues are not occultic. They are regular, everyday person issues that any could help prevent, if they just wanted to get out of churchville, and get to know the ‘sinners’.
I would welcome comments from those that said that they had involvement in the occult, to verify if my thoughts are true about the slow, ongoing temptation that might lead one into the occult.
Realist
re post 71
mbaker, “I don’t consider myself a wicked depraved wretch because I don’t have a real issue with celebrating halloween, or not.”
Theologically quite correct; according to Calvin you’re a wicked depraved wretch all the time simply because you’re human (or part human. Leprechauns are not completely depraved).
“…..Leprechauns are not completely depraved).”
Even without our halloween costumes?
John, they may not be completely depraved, but do they have representation for attonement? If we would open our eyes and just stop celebrating Halloween and all the other pagan holidays, I would say we are the lucky ones.
Realist,
I can’t speak for anyone else of course, however I was very concerned about my kids and occult influences in every day life. Not just on Halloween. Just because the topic at the moment is Halloween, doesn’t mean there isn’t concern the rest of the year also.
Re post 75
Thanks for the tip, DDP. It was a great read. For those interested in learning the facts about the Christian origin of halloween (no pagan origin at all), it’s a good place to go.
After reading that one, anyone who spent at least part of their childhood in the 70s must go the following blog post on the First Things website:
http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2009/10/trick-or-tract-satan-jack-chick-and-other-halloween-horrors/
Like the author I’m still creeped out by Jack Chick tracts, and I also had the weird experience of being able to read Chick comics about demons and about various assorted sordid crimes and sins (including fornication, of deep interest to a pre-teen/teen), but not being permitted to read Archie and Jughead or Spiderman.
Those of you who missed out on the Jack Chick thing have really missed a part of childhood. For those of us who went through it, it creates instant bonds of familiarity and friendship. It’s like belonging to a fraternity or sorority–no matter where you go, if you meet someone else who had the Jack Chick experience you have met a friend and have something in common to talk about.
I understand that Jack is still alive, but somehow he just doesn’t have the cachet now that he did back then.
regards,
#John
Lindsey,
#John was referring to some of my recent attempts at humor about evolution on the other thread. It’s kind of an Irish thing.
re post 50 and Christian themed costumes
Mike, you wrote truer than you knew (or did you?).
Mike wrote, “I’ve got the perfect solution to split the difference: A Bible-based Halloween night. Goliath with a severed head and one serious frontal lobe fracture. Sisera with a nail through the skull. Take your pick of any apostle (with exception of John). Dare I say Jesus? The possibilities are endless…and it’s perfectly holy!”
In fact, that’s how early Christians did dress up!
If the article from which I got this is true, then,
“Hallowe’en was created by the Early Christian Church during the 4th century.1 Originally celebrated on the 13th and 14th of May as “All Martyr’s Day,” it was instituted to remember those who had given their lives for the Faith during the Great Christian Holocaust, by Rome. It was, in other words, the Christian Memorial Day — the second most important holy-day in the entire Christian Calendar. Somewhere along the way it apparently became customary to hold Church pageants on the preceding evening. Everyone, even the audience, came dressed as their favorite martyred saint. Those who chose Paul, came beheaded. Those who chose Matthew, came with a spear thrust through them. In skits, congregations would reenact the valor and passion of the Church-in-persecution. Others dressed as the antagonists of the stories — Satan, his demons, the wild animals of the coliseum, the soldiers and the Caesars. These were the defeated enemies, booed and hissed, while the victorious heroes were cheered. Afterward they would all spill out into the streets of the city, begging food for the poor among them.”
The following were provided as references:
“In the late 4th century, a feast of All Martyrs was observed by the Eastern Syrians on May 13 and by the West Syrians and Byzantines on the Sunday following Pentecost. Pope Boniface IV received from the emperor Phocas (reigned 602-610) the Pantheon at Rome, which he dedicated on May 13 to St. Mary and All Martyrs. The Feast of All Saints on November 1 was promulgated by Pope Gregory IV in 835, in place of the May festival.” v.16, p.308, 1a, Encyclopedia Britannica, Chicago, IL, 1992
“On All Hallows, many churches staged plays called pageants for the benefit of their members. Each pageant participant dressed up as the patron saint of his special guardian. Those who did not play the part of a ‘holy one’ played the part of devils. The procession then marched from the church out into the churchyard where the play might continue until late in the evening.” p 36, Phillips, P., Halloween and Satanism, Starburst Publ., Penn, 1987″
And thanks to all those who have been lightening up the usually serious discussions that occur here. : )
[yes, my smileys are lame. I have an irrational biase against the new ones. They just seem too slick, faddish, newfangled and trendy]
regards,
#John
# John,
The link with the Chick tract in post #81, That was ridiculous. And a good point you make. I wouldn’t let my child read that tract without some serious explanation from me. Trouble is I don’t know how I would explain it.
I think it is legitimate to refrain from participating in Halloween, but just not for superstitious or lame reasons. That’s what I think was being made fun of. I live in a small town and the atmosphere here is not very scary on Halloween. Decorations are more along the lines of those huge plastic bubble things with a Casper style ghost inside or pillow cases tied to tree branches etc. The scariest thing here is the possibility of bumping into a bear. I don’t recall ever seeing blood in any house displays. So I can and do empathize with parents who have kids in a setting where Halloween scares them more than thrills them. But I still think it is wrong to imply to non Christians and children that Halloween is somehow Satan’s big day of influence that translates to Satan looking like a weak enemy . And sometimes, as in my setting, a silly looking enemy
It’s like the child who wakes up afraid that something is under their bed and you coddle and hug and let the them sleep in your bed with you ..he or she will wake you up every night for weeks, because you have by your actions confirmed to that child there is something to be afraid of and that it is possible something might be under their bed. You tell the child they are wrong, then you show them nothing is under the bed , you leave the light on , kiss them goodnight and walk away. I think that same principle can be applied to Halloween by drawing back from it , it can translate that there is a legitimate fear of Halloween as being extra paranormal and a day of Satan and his demons. In my neck of the woods it’s a day of pillowcases tied to tree limbs…any kid of mine would think I was insane. So I agree with the sentiment that there is and should be liberty for Christians in this area but I would like it that every Christian had a coherent and sound reason and that’s the problem a lot of them don’t.
Cadis,
You said: “So I agree with the sentiment that there is and should be liberty for Christians in this area but I would like it that every Christian had a coherent and sound reason and that’s the problem a lot of them don’t.”
Are you sayign that someone has to have a coherent and sound reason for not celebrating halloween? Why? I don’t think anyone who celebrates it has a coherent and sound reason for so doing. Why does either side need a coherent and sound reason? If it’s “only a day for dressing up and getting candy”, what difference does it make why someone does or does not celebrate it and who decides what reasons are coherent and sound? If I’m understanding you correctly, I think that’s a bit ridiculous.
Our document management system has been down a lot today, giving me time to post.
re post 86 by Nita
I suppose that Cadis means that if someone is not participating in halloween for moral or spiritual reasons, then one should have reasons that are actually cogent and make sense.
One would also need reasons if one is trying to convince someone else to either participate in, or not participate in, halloween (I’d not call it a celebration, but whatever).
On the other hand, if participating or not participating in halloween is merely a matter of personal preference–like which flavour of ice cream one likes–then Nita is correct: no reasons are necessary.
I think that for most people, however, participating in halloween is not simply a matter of personal preference.
regards,
#John
This just caught my eye, because my 8 year old asked me if he could be a ghost at our church carnival ) held on Halloween night) this year. I tossed this around in my head for a bit too….and then decided: Why not? His idea is to use his blankie with his gnome hat on top. He tried on the blankie and realized that it’s so shredded he can’t very well hide under it. Plan B?
Susan (re your post #88): check out Cadis’ post #3 for plan B. She wrote, “A sheet with two holes? Casper? or are you going to totally white him out somehow? At least the third option has some possibilities (thinking of the Scrooge ghosts in the movie from the 40’s) I’m seeing some vasolene and baby powder is this kids near future.”
****
cherylu, I just reread your initial posts. I think it is clear by now, but the other posters and I who are making fun of halloween are not making fun of people like you or steve who have their own, personal reasons for not participating, but making fun of the more generic hysteria about halloween and satanism that is unthinkingly propogated. Just wanted to make sure that you knew we respect you.
Nita, I see what you’re getting at but I’d have to agree with John and Vance (see #69). It’s more than just a preference. The one who believes that Halloween is participating in evil and demonic activity will see the Halloween celebrating brother or sister as participating also. There’s a big difference between not celebrating because you think its stupid vs. not celebrating because its evil. So the premise that it is evil is what is being challenged. Otherwise, the accusation is the Christians who do so are participating in darkness. So yeah, I don’t think that’s so ridiculous.
Regarding post # 89,
Thanks # John.
Just wanted to let everyone know, because of the circumstances here, that if you don’t hear from me for awhile, it is not because I am going away mad! We have a gentleman here doing a bunch of interior house painting. So I have a large scale mess going on. Having been sitting down for a minute off and on during the day to catch up–and to catch my breath. Trying to keep everything moved out of the way ahead of him is a challenge even if we did a bunch yesterday. Have too much stuff! And at some point, my computer will be disconnected for quite some time. So if I disappear, know I will be back.
NEWS FLASH………Demons got a toe hold on CMP’s toe!! This has to prove Halloween is baaad. 😉
J.R., I think that’s why he’s beat-boxing 😛
Hi there, Lisa? What are you going to be for this years DTS Halloween Parade? Luther?
Hi John, thanks for pointing out the ghost options from Cadis. I like the scrooge ghost idea….but Vasaline? Yuck! He’d be scratching it off I think. Is that really how it’s done?
I’m hoping he will decide to go with last year’s astronaut costume….because it’s easy!….and he has a school parade tomorrow.
I haven’t been reading this thread so I won’t jump into the more serious discussion….but I’ll go with Lisa’s take (as usual!) 😉
Luther’s a wimp. I’m going as Elizabeth I 😉
Nita in post #86.
Yeah I could have worded that better. My husband and I are doing nothing for Halloween this year for no good reason. Okay we live a mile back a dirt road and even when we have left the lights on…the kids won’t come. So I guess that is a reason.
RE:#95,
Yeah, and besides how could anyone criticize a virgin queen? Oops, sorry to you others who don’t seem to see the inherent humor in all this, it’s just the rogue Irish in me acting up again.
I’m still going as a leprechaun though, since it’s said to be of part of my genetic code. 🙂
Oh, and Susan, white nurse’s hose work much better.
Sorry to respond to an earlier post (#76) so late. I started this earlier in the day but had to leave to pick up the kids from school. I wanted to respond to Realist’s request.
“Since, it takes a while to get entrenched in these types of thnigs. If someone is going to become involved in the occult, it’s not going to be because ‘Halloween made them do it’. It’s a much more systemic issue. The issue is more that no one was sharing the love of Christ in the person’s life (on a regular basis), showing an alternative, and caring for them so that they didn’t feel alone and powerless. Most of those that I have read about that get into the occult, is because of a desire to belong, or to gain power.”
Realist, you hit the nail on the head, at least in my case. I almost submitted a post last night expressing these exact thoughts. I decided not to as I am always concerned I might come off sounding harsh or my words taken in a way not intended. Oh well, throwing caution to the wind, here goes. I was involved in the occult for a brief time for the very reasons you describe. I would add lack of solid family values being practiced in the home to this mix. I was not ignorant to the gospel. In fact I distinctly remember at a young age praying “the prayer” and attending church for many years during my youth without my family’s participation. For reasons I will not go into other than church hypocrisy and personal ignorance, I left the church while in my teen years. Many years later, in my early 30’s, I became involved in the occult of wicca. I am thankful God convicted me during that time so I did not become entrenched. I do have to say that the spiritual strangeness I experienced after leaving was enough to convince me that we Christians should take the occult seriously, very seriously. I experienced things I cannot explain. I still get a little rattled talking about it, so it is rare that I do. I use my experience on those occasions to mentor individuals I feel in danger of following the deceitful path to destruction.
I respect the arguments and choices of those who choose not to participate in Halloween. After coming back or entering the fold, however you look at it, I had a knee jerk reaction to Halloween for a period of time. That is until I truly took the time to reflect on the reasons why I became involved in the occult to begin with. It is those reasons that trouble me deeply and drive me to focus instead on those issues, year round with the children. Fighting to explain to the kids why they can’t dress up and collect candy left me feeling disingenuous, because I did so based on someone else’s opinions and beliefs. I do not claim to have all the answers, nor do I speak for others with experience in the occult. I simply hope to provide a small amount of insight through my experience.
Lisa
I pray CMP is not beat boxen to Jerry Lee Lewis “you shake my bones and you rattle my brain”
Sorry, it should have been “you shake my nerves an you rattle my brain” I couldn’t edit on an iPhone.