Is this the End of America?

Michael. I fundamentally disagree both on redefining marriage and on health care.

For marriage, have you seen any of the material from the Ruth Institute, such as the following: http://www.ruthblog.org/2012/04/02/privatizing-marriage-is-impossible/?

For health care, this is just more money paid to more people when the church has been failing to do its job. The church should care for the sick. Not the government. The more control the state has, the less freedom the person has. I’ve been unemployed for months now having to depend on the government and my family, and I don’t like it one bit. I would love for my ministry to thrive on its own. (Sadly, churches are some of the stingiest with supporting the apologetics ministry)

Now with health-care, it’s going to get harder and harder to get a job. Employers will hire fewer workers and those workers will have to be more specialized, which means those who don’t have the best skills in non-ministry areas, like myself, will get the shaft. What do those of us who get the shaft do? Depend on the government. How does the government pay for this? Raising taxes. What do employers do in response? Lay people off. It’s a never-ending cycle.

In my thinking, all of this that we’re seeing is a symptom of a greater problem. I wrote my own blog earlier today on what to do about it. This is not a time to surrender. It’s a time to stand up and fight.

https://deeperwaters.wordpress.com/2012/11/09/how-to-save-a-country/

I do think that the State has an interest in making sure that children are raised in as stable of homes as possible.
And to make sure that children are not given into marriage.

Other than that, I tend to agree with what you are saying.
I don’t want to “take back America.”
I want to win America with better ideas and better arguments.

I have to be honest, your article sounds a little like the conservative mourning going on and trying to seem reasonable. First off i think Christians have spent too much time under the conservative umbrella. We have allowed conservatives to modify the Christians message and limit how we speak the truth. We are at the point that many Christians are unable to discern what is uniquely Christian apart from conservatism.
A good example is how you speak of government. We live in a democracy, yet you speak of government as some an entity apart from us. We need to see the government as a tool of how we choose to live together. The conservative view of government is that it is the enemy. This is not a Christian view. Your misconception of government is apparent on how you speak of gay marriage. In the election people voted to allow gay marriage. It was not something that the government is forcing on us to accept.
If anything i would rather have Christians start talking about what it means to be Christian in this world of ours. We should do it in a way that is not sub-subservient to conservatism. We need a new conversation about being Christian and stop fighting the conservative battles.

Nick,

“Michael. I fundamentally disagree both on redefining marriage and on health care.”

Me too. I hope I did not communicate something else. I am in fundamental disagreement with federal involvement in just about everything. Who are they to interfere?

What this is, is a time to take stock. I was puzzled about my co-workers voting for Clinton…..Unfortunately I did not take that election too seriously. Not a chance this time. Got my attention.
Now that I am closer to God I realize that people want to call their own shots. People don’t want religion or gov. hanging over them telling them not to have sex outside of marriage, keep an unwanted baby, etc. We are seeing not an up and down wave but a degenerating society that’s not looking back any time soon.
We, the church, need to get our house in order. Each one of us needs to take stock. We elected Obama in 2008 and we changed nothing. Let’s not let that happen this time. The church needs to be instructed by its leaders as to where it has gone wrong. I don’t hear it being taught. The way we do church can be nauseating.
We need to start with individual faith in action. We need to start with home church. If we don’t have time for that, quit your job and start your own business. We need to start with personal time with God, one-on-one and with our family. If you don’t have time, rearrange your priorities. Then when we have lives that demonstrate what we say we believe, we can reach out and affect others. When our kids and friends see us getting down on our knees and praying aloud, when we spend an hour or yes, even two, each morning seeking God, reading His Word and growing in our personal knowledge, then we can talk to others and affect them.
Why don’t we just stop Sunday church? What good is it? Why don’t we have the pastor travel around to home churches and get them on track?
Now that everyone is thinking that I am completely radical….GOOD. Maybe you can soak this in.
“Give up everything you own, and follow me”. Jesus
Do it! Prove it.

As a Brit in the US, I am with Nick here.. and after seeing what has happened to the British Empire, this is again just more of the biblical aspect of the Gentile Apostasy! It is a slow track perhaps, but I have surely seen it in my lifetime, the loss of the Judeo-Christian ethic etc., in both Great Britain and America! Indeed real Christians must get tough, and “stand” their ground! And the doctrine of marriage is centered of course around both God’s Creation and the Law of God!

Sam,

The issue of gay marriage should not have been up for election any more than the price of my new car. The government has no business requiring a vote for anything that is outside of its limited parameters.

I think you are stuck in a bubble of propaganda which has been heavily delivered from the more progressives and the emerging church. I could care less about titles, republican, democrat, or conservative and liberal. What do those mean? Until you let go of the labeling, I doubt you will see where most of us are coming from.

It is the issues that matter, that is it. And Christians are going to line up with the issues that matter, whether the label is Republican or Democrat.

Speaking as a non-American looking on, we are all totally bemused why Government health care should be a controversy. Where I am we have it, and it doesn’t matter if you are far right or left, conservative or liberal, EVERYBODY supports it. Nobody would THINK of abolishing it. We all look at you guys and think you are all insane. I don’t know if Obama’s plan is good in details, but my guess is that after 4 years of this, the Republicans will HAVE to support it or face perpetual time in the wilderness. Frankly, it’s a Christian plan to care for these most basic needs. The church can’t do such things universally or consistently. That’s WHY we have government. The Byzantine empire financed such things too.

You are right the labels do not matter. It is how we reason that matters. I would rather reason according to scripture. What i am pointing out is that your reasoning about government is more in line with conservative thinking.

We live in a democracy. We control the government. Conservatives have a way of thinking about government which democracy does not define. Your reply of “limited parameters” show a conservative way of thinking. Why shouldn’t have gay marriage been up for a vote? Aren’t we living in a democracy? This is the kind of thinking i am saying we should move away from. We need to have a uniquely Christian message. We need to stop fighting the conservative battles.

BTW you can label me as emerging if you want, i am not one, i am in small town with no emerging churches. What i am hoping to do is get back to the scriptures and cast off everything else that does not matter to Christians, this includes conservatism. When i oppose homosexuality, it is because it is a sin, not because the government is doing something it shouldn’t.

@Michael Patton
Maybe i should reframe things better. We see in other cultures how when Christianity has gone in, some aspects of it became syncretic with the culture. I am saying that has happened for us and in our case we have made Christianity syncretic with the conservatism. It is time we show some discernment and return back to the scriptures.

@Michael Patton
OK … where does the idea of small government come from? It surely not found in scripture. You seem hold onto small government like it were a truth that cannot be questioned or challenged. What makes you think that people have not made an educated choice and therefore had a vote about gay marriage? More importantly why do we as Christians need to have a conversation about small government? That is not where scripture takes us. Yet I find that most Christians are so embroiled in that battle. Why?

Sam,

It sounds like you advocate a form of nuda Scriptura (the belief that something has to be found in Scripture to be legitimate or mandated). This goes against sola Scripture (or, better, prima Scriptura), that when the Scripture speaks on something it is the final source of authority. However, this does not mean that there are not other authorities. When the Scripture is silent, we have to look to other areas to find solutions.

For example, the Scripture does not speak about the law of non-contradiction, the basic elements of communication, about diet, how to perform a marriage, the best way to design a house, whether or not we can let women teach in public eduction, whether or not there is such a thing as public education, etc., etc., etc.

This does not mean we ignore these things or don’t look to other sources (rationality, tradition, experience, ect). This is called the Weslyan Quadrilateral or the Lutheran Trilateral.

In the end, the Scripture is silent about how civil government should govern. Therefore, we look to the broader principles and do our best to apply them.

But this does not mean that there is not a mandated right or wrong.

This issue needs to be discussed. We need to learn from experience and tradition of governmental systems. More importantly, we need to look to the constitution, as it is our governmental foundation. These are the things that need to be discussed and applied. If we stay out of it, we are in sin in my opinion as we are the government. To ignore our responsibility is to ignore Rom 13.

There is nothing inherently evil in big government or small government. We just need to discuss and educate so that people can make informed decisions and not just walk with there eyes closed because Scripture does not tell us which to go with.

Btw, we could argue Conservatism from Edmund Burke to Ronald Reagan! With the real modern Father for America in William F. Buckley. And of course we cannot forget John Locke who made a defense of both: conservatism and liberalism. And I could even make a defense for St. Paul as a conservative, the Roman Citizen, with his Jewish Hellenistic and Greco-Roman thinking. And of course Paul the Pharisee! (Acts 22: 3-4 / Gal. 4: 4-6) 😉

Hi Michael.

Perhaps I did misunderstand but that’s the way I took it. It was along the lines of “Let the government stay out of the marriage business and if the same-sex community wants to redefine it, let them. It seems to be the libertarian stance and there are reasons for not taking it, mainly for the affect that will have on children.

For health-care, it seemed like this was a kind of “No big deal.” I find it a huge deal. Right now, after moving, I currently have no health insurance. I also have no job and the donations are down to my ministry and it is extremely difficult to get a job around here. Throw in my Asperger’s and it seems to be difficult to get health insurance. The last thing I want is ObamaDeath. I agree that health care needs reform, but I’m sure we both agree now that giving it to the government is not the solution.

I also agree with what I’ve seen in the comments that you take to task the position that if Scripture doesn’t discuss something, it isn’t important, and I love the name nuda Scriptura. I seem to see this attitude towards Scripture that practically worships it. I hold to the Inerrancy and Infallibility of it, but it is not deity and it serves a purpose and it is a misuse to give it another purpose.

I’m just honestly concerned Michael. We went to see Allie’s doctor yesterday and he had to give me something to help me sleep at night. I’m just now starting to recover from this election. She’s never seen me so depressed about something. I hate living off of my folks and the government at my age as a now married man so apologies if I did misread.

Perhaps on another note, we should consider that maybe realizing that Smallville went off the air after the Republican sweep in 2010 is part of the reason things went awry in 2012. People no longer had hope after that.

@Michael: I love the older connection between the Wesleyan Quadrilateral and the Lutheran Trilateral, myself. See btw the English Methodist, Philip Watson’s classic book: Let God be God, An Interpretation of the Theology of Martin Luther.

And too, it is quite interesting that Nazi Germany was able to wrongfully press much of Luther’s Two Kingdom theology! But both England and America used the doctrine of God in their own measure, also. Of course no doubt in a more moral and theological sense, I think especially the latter with the British.

Nick. #smallville. #tearscametoeyes.

In the last two day I have found that we have lost some major donors due to the election. Small business stuff. They don’t know if they will exist next year.

It is true that there are major implications. I don’t disagree at all.

Concerning same sex marriage. I don’t know who gave the government the pen to write the definition for marriage. That is my point. They are not competent or needed in this area. My prayer is that we can hold societal standards which makes same-sex marriage reprehensible and rejected as my as marriage to a dog.

“The government simply needs to protect the people and build highways”

Protect the people from what? EVERYTHING the government does has something to do with protecting the people.

We get the government we deserve.

I’m hoping that this article is a sign that the blog is moving away from discussing politics (other blogs do that better, anyway), and back to what drew me to it in the first place – investigating and discussing the essentials (and other important things) of the Christian faith, and how we can learn about them better and apply them better.

Invaders ad murderers. Some regulation, minimal. Stay out of Heath, marriage, and banks. Minimal regulation only when necessary. Take the risk of letting people take care of things. We are pretty smart and innovative, but we need freedom to rise out of our messes. We are children no longer.

@Michael Patton for #13
I think you are misreading me. You might need more categories to label my view of scriptures. I also will have to honest here, my intentions are to reclaim the Christian mind away from conservatism.

If there is one thing we should learn from the sermon on the mount, it is that God’s moral law starts in the heart of men. There is no law that you can make for or against it. The idea of legitimizing it or mandating comes from a narrative that has been imposed on us by the world not from the scriptures. According to 2 Tim 3:16-17, scripture equips us for every good work. We don’t need the world’s narrative to to help us with our good works. So, yes, i do believe in sola scriptura but not nuda scriptura because the idea of legitimizing or mandating anything does not even come into the picture.

I find the idea of “Scripture is silent” to be a contradiction which most Christians have to come to accept. Scripture is God talking to us. He is not silent. If we feel silence it is because we are not listening or we are asking questions of it that it does not answer. When we do the latter and then go elsewhere for answers we are saying that scripture does not equip us for every good work. We as Christians need to be passionate about good works. Diet, ways of getting married, designing a house are all not good works and there is no need to get zealous about them. You can look to other sources to try and answer them, but any answer you get, you don’t have to be passionate about it. Size of government is also not a good work. Yet you are religious for it, even in the face of people who might think differently. Why? God wants us to be a light for him, not for small government or conservatism. I will point out that you still have not answered my questions in comment #12.

No where does the Bible say we should mandate things on other people. What have i to do with judging those outside? Romans 13 is about us submitting to authorities not us…

Three reasons why big government is detrimental over the long run:

1. Big government hinders economic growth in the long term, causing the poor to become poorer.
Macroeconomic studies on historical data show that high government spending, as measured by % government spending (outlays) of total GDP, causes a drag on GDP growth.

2. “Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
Big government means even greater consolidation of power and tax revenue in the federal government, thus attracting more politicians and the more corrupt types. Much like a pile of dung, the bigger the pile, the more flies AND the nastier the TYPE of flies it attracts.

3. People, be it in government or a corporation, are sinners but their sins are most evident when they have authority to use force.
Government is always a monopoly and can utilize force to achieve its will (tyranny), while companies competing in a free market cannot. If I hate Bill Gates, I can trash my PC computer today and go buy a Mac tomorrow. Gates cannot force me to buy his products. On the other hand, government, even in a democracy, cannot be changed immediately (gotta wait for next election). The feds are forcing me to buy health insurance now, I have no choice but to do so or get penalized for refusing.

Michael, I think you are absolutely correct concerning the marriage issue. Somehow, the church (in America, at least) has defaulted to the government’s definition of marriage, IMO, without ever thinking it through or searching scripture to see how God defines it.

There is a real sense that in our churches we enforce the government’s declaration of marriage without even wondering if that’s the correct approach. We’ll declare an “unmarried” couple to be in sin and enact church discipline even though they have demonstrated (to some extent) a long-term committment. Even the government recognizes common-law marriage, but we hold out for the government issued piece of paper.

I suspect that as gay marriage becomes more common, the church will side-step it by retreating to a position of “blessing” heterosexual unions and leaving the legalities to secular authorities. Probably should have been that way all along.

Also, IMO, gay marriage will never be a really big thing because of the 2 to 3 percent of the population that is gay, an even smaller proportion will choose to “marry,” and most people will seldom, if ever, encounter a “married” gay couple, except on the ever-present TV.

I do find incredible irony in the fact that younger people, who on a practical basis seem to care little about marriage, are outraged that marriage is denied to gays. It’s a crazy world.

BTW, there are some good threads about church, government and marriage in the archives over on Theologica.

How do we know the government is too big?

1. In 2011 EIGHT OF THE TOP 11 WEALTHIEST COUNTIES in this country are in the Washington DC area (Look it up yourself on the 2011 Census). Yup, Wall St “fat cats” are not even in the top 3. America was never like this historically. Judged based on this metric alone, it does seem like USA is becoming like USSR, where the rich are the leaders of the central committee party.

2. Government expenditure as a % of GDP, which is at 39%, is close to the record high. The only time we went past 40% was during WWII, and that was because we had to defeat the Nazis and the Japanese Empire. You cannot expect the economy to sustain itself over the long run when the current government spending accounts for TWO FIFTHS of the economy.

3. The federal debt to GDP ratio is more than 100% (you have to count total debt, including intragovernmental borrowings like SS). Historical analyses of 66 countries and nations over 600 years history shows that if the debt –to-GDP of a country reaches 100%, there will be a fiscal and financial crisis eventually (Reinhart and Rogoff). This is because those governments have grown too big.

If government spending is the end of the world, why do we have in the top richest countries…

#1 Luxemburg. 37.2% of GDP government spending
#3 Norway 40.2%
#8 United States. 38.9%
#10 Netherlands. 45.9%
#11 Austria 49%
#12 Ireland. 42%
#13 Sweden. 52.5%
#14 Denmark. 51.8%
#15 Canada. 39.7%
#16 Australia. 34.3%
#17 Germany. 43.7%

Other than a few oil nations, and some special cases like Singapore and Hong Kong, all the top countries have pretty big government spending. Are we to believe everyone got it wrong? We’d all be swimming in a better lifestyle, if only the government would stick to military and roads? Where is the evidence? Where is the country that tried that, and is such a great place to live?

John, I did not say anything about gov spending. It does cost a lot to maintain our top military status and police the world.

@John for #26:

Notice I said “You cannot expect the economy to sustain itself OVER THE LONG RUN” (emphasis added). America spent 50% of GDP during WWII and we were relatively fine. The point is that it was only for several years. Now we’ve gone past 30% of GDP since the 1980s and that % keeps going up.

You are putting the cart before the horse. One reason why these countries have high government spending is precisely because they’re rich and they think they can afford to keep giving out “free stuff” through government programs. My point is that it is unsustainable over the long run. You can do it for a few years, even for decades, but at some point you will find yourself in a debt crisis, PLUS a slow growth/ high unemployment economy.

From your list, these countries are expected by IMF and the bond markets to be at serious risk of a fiscal crisis due to unsustainable government spending: USA, Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Canada, and Germany. Ireland already suffered one in 2008. Since the early 2000s, Sweden recognized the incoming problem, and began CUTTING spending. Their number used to be higher than 60%. Luxemburg and Australia only started increasing government spending recently, so it is short term for them.

Most of the countries in your list have been suffering from slow GDP growth (0-2%) and chronic high unemployment rates (>3%) even before the 2007 financial crisis.

When the next global fiscal crisis comes, rich countries like Singapore and Hong Kong that managed to keep their government spending relatively low go through the crisis less painfully and recover at a much faster rate.

Remember you read it here first.

@GoldCityDance

I think its nonsense to say that you can do something for decades, but eventually it will get you. If it was unsustainable, you wouldn’t be able to do it for decades. You can’t just point to something going wrong (eventually something ALWAYS goes wrong), then blame your pet theory. It’s like saying that everyone who drinks water ultimately dies, therefore drinking water is lethal.

Why don’t you prove that you can afford to NOT give out “free stuff” in the long term. Maybe ultimately if you don’t, the masses will rise up and overthrow the elite class, aka French revolution. It’s a theory. Until you pony up proof, it’s as good as any theory.

You mention Ireland’s debt. In the 80s their debt reached 107% of GDP. In the 90s it spent a lot of time in the 90+% range. Yet they are now the #12 country now for per capital GDP. You mention the Netherland’s govt. debt, which is 67% of GDP as at 2010. It’s been about that much since 1983, hovering between the 50s and 70s all that time. You mention Austria which is 61% as at 2010. It’s been about that since 1987. Canada’s has been about the same since the early 80s.

Australia “started increasing spending” recently? What do you call recently? Australia’s debt to GDP has hovered between 20% and 5% of GDP since 1980. Right now it is 11%.

You say that “most of the countries” in my list have slow GDP growth and high unemployment. But their financial state has been this way since the 1980s at least at least as far as government debt. So why single out that as the cause? And their GDP growth is slow compared to what? You praise Singapore, but their growth is projected at 2.3% this year, about the same as US growth (2.0%).

Should all these countries reduce spending and debt? Perhaps. But I see no reason to think that the world’s ills are caused by it. The US definitely made a mistake to rack up so much debt. But it can slowly print money its way out of it. Euro countries can’t do…

@John:

1. To clarify, I don’t think big government is the source of all evil in this world.

2. It is not an illogical statement to say it is possible for an unsustainable trend to maintain its course for decades. The word “unsustainable” does not give a time frame, it just means the bubble will pop. For example, our pollution with greenhouse gases is unsustainable for the health for this planet, yet we have been doing it for decades. Another example, we’re consuming fossil fuels at an unsustainable rate, yet we’ve been doing it for decades as well.
Here’s an economic example, the Greeks have been spending at greater than 30% GDP since the 90s. They only hit the wall in the past 2 years. Most mainstream economists would say part of the reason why there is a Greek crisis is because Greek public spending has been too high. I doubt they said so simply because it’s their pet theory to explain the cause of the Greek crisis.

3. It might surprise you but I do agree that in any wealthy society, giving out of “free stuff” will reduce the risk of revolution or class warfare. Resentment and envy are just part of human nature. The question is whether it is morally right to redistribute the wealth.

4. If you want an example of the most capitalistic country with the least socialism, look up Hong Kong during British rule (1950s to 2000). They never had minimum wage until 2 years ago.

5. GDP per capita is not the best way to measure wealth, especially when our discussion is about government spending. Government spending (outlays) is calculated as part of GDP. That means any country that borrows money from outside (foreign creditors) will get a boost in GDP as long as the creditors allow them to. That is the case for Ireland and a lot of the eurozone countries. They utilized the low bond rates due to their eurozone status to borrow money and spend on government programs. Yeah sure they “appear” wealthy for a time, but at what cost?

6. US can print its way out of it, but the resulting inflation is a form of tax on anyone who uses the dollar. The poor is the worst hit during periods of high inflation because essential goods get more expensive.

7. Less than 2% GDP growth is traditionally the number economists use to describe low growth (stagnation).

8. Singapore – There are many numbers, you just picked one of the worst ones. Look at their unemployment rates and GDP growth rates the past two decades. Then compare with those of European countries on your list.
BTW, Eurozone GDP rate expected to be negative this year.

9. What do you think is the cause for slow GDP growth and high unemployment in most of the countries on your list? It’s just a coincidence these factors and high public spending happen to correlate? I’d be willing to hear a reasonable alternative explanation for the correlation.

Well, being reformed you would think we should be less stressed, but from what I’ve seen we’re not. Of course not all my reformed bretheren are wigging out, but many are which I find troubling. God appoints rulers, whether it’s kings or presidents. The American people may have voted for Obama, but he would not be President were he not God’s annointed. We should pray for him and his family. Pray that he would repent, so as to govern wisely and justly. I cannot know why God chose Him, but I can have suspicions. I can certainly see Gods judgement falling on this nation already. Evil magistrates, government giving it’s imprimater to wickedness, and the evangelical communities complicity in the destruction of marraige just to name a few signs. There is homosexual marriage because hetrosexuals began to see marriage as a matter of convenience, not as a holy covenant.
If you want to know why God is removing his hand of restraint look in a mirror. I can hear the howls already. The wicked strut about in the street, we hunker down. Evil rulers destroy the poor, we complain about taxes. Who then is to blame? Honestly bretheren, has our light shined forth. How often did we sit in church looking at our watch because the football game was starting in 5 minutes. How often did “Dancing with the Feckless” occupy our attention instead of gathering to pray. Can we honestly say we have given our whole heart to God? Supported and helped our Pastor? Been joyful to be among the Saints. Has our light shined forth to a lost and dying world?
None of this is to excuse the evil of men around us. But what can we expect evil men to do? God converts men, not us. We should be clear in declaring the truth, no matter what it costs us. We should pray for the lost, that God might grant them repentance. And we should do what is right in Gods eyes; praising His judgements even if they mean the election of an unrighteous man. If we do these things then we will have served God aright.

Michael,

My heart began to race as I read your post, not out of fear that you had lost your way, but with joy that someone who is expected to toe the conservative line (as conservatives define it these days) has deeply considered this issue and recognized another way. Stand your ground. It will be a long raod toward convincing conservative Chistians that it’s ok to let others live their lives in peace without passing laws to prevent them from sinning. Thank you for pointing out that less governent intrusion in all areas of our lives, whether economic or social, is a good and freeing thing for Christian and non-christian alike.

Thank God He is the Sovereign, and not the great Economist! 😉 And the Roman Empire finally fell, and Augsustine wrote the City of God! Indeed this great work mirrors the essential Augustine, and might be regarded as the most complete expression of what is central in his thought. It stands between two worlds, – that of Graeco-Roman antiquity and that of the Christian Middle Ages, – itself a notable landmark in that fascinating period of decadence and growth, the outstanding document of its epoch! If it has to be listed among works of controversy and therefore inevitably contains much outworn polemic and apologetic; it contains the Christian answer to the reproaches levelled… It reveals, as no doubt it helped to sustain, the spirit which enabled the Church to survive the Empire and maintain faith and hope in a darkening age. And btw, not a few have called Augustine the Founder of the Philosophy of History! (The Catholic Etienne Gilson, for one).

Btw, too Semper Fi American Marines…Happy Birthday USMC!

@Michael OP: We have done it in the past and we will do it again in the future. It is a lot bigger than the issues of nationalized marriage or healthcare. We must believe this, especially if we hope to change it.

This is only true if you assume that all things being equal. You can’t say that this has happened before, we’ve survived it before and therefore we will survive it again. Schaeffer was so insightful and prescient to point out the titanic shift to postmodernism over 40 yrs ago. “Absolutes imply antithesis. The non-Christian went on romantically operating on this basis without a sufficient cause, an adequate base, for doing so. Thus it was still possible to discuss what was right and wrong, what was true and false. One could tell a non-Christian to “be a good girl” and, while she might not have followed your advice, at least she would have understood what you were talking about. To say the same thing to a truly modern girl today would be to make a “nonsense” statement. The blank look you might receive would not mean that your standards had been rejected, but that your message was meaningless.
The shift has been tremendous. Thirty or more years ago you could have said such things as “This is true” or “This is right,” and you would have been on everybody’s wavelength. People may or may not have thought out their beliefs consistently, but everyone would have been talking to each other as though the idea of antithesis was correct. Thus in evangelism, in spiritual matters and in Christian education, you could have begun with the certainty that your audience understood you.”

Amen to the American and the sort of European thinking Francis Schaeffer! Surely being almost forgotten in the biblical thinking and theology these days! Note, he was Historic Pre-Mill.

Indeed the Judeo-Christian ethic and mind-set is almost unknown today, even most so-called evangelical Christians are but post-modern! How in the world could an American Christian vote for Obama, is quite beyond me!

@Fr. Robert #37, Sadly I have to agree with you. Also sadly IMO the religious right in America is more interested in recovering our mythical religious past rather than face the reality of our religious present. Case in point Gregg Frazer vs David Barton. Maranatha.

@teleologist: Since I have been in the US, off and on since 08, I have sadly noted a great paradigm shift it seems with American Evangelicals? I love America, but I am not sure its gonna make it, at least as it was before? But God is GOD, and HE knows! Sign of the times sadly! If I were younger I would go back to Israel, and stand with them again!

Oh my! Hmm…Wonder why I our government has gotten to where it is? I sometimes wonder at the sins of humanity and the role of the church down through the years during this process. Why would the federal government need to intervene against slavery for example? Why would federal government see to displaced children and families? Why would the federal government take on the responsibility of divorce and marriage? I think the question regarding the role of federal government has to do with HOW they became involved in the first place…sort of like…what forced the hand here. Maybe we the people have brought this on as our own making?? I do agree with you Mike on many aspects. But regretfully by past experiences the role of how our government gets involved in personal issues, isn’t going to small. I believe small state governments just will be mimics of big governments. I do love my country…but I love my God greater. I will serve Him because it is before Him I will either fall or stand. I am not worried about America. I think we have come too far to turn back and lose what was fought for. Maybe some have put their trust too much in the political machine and how many act they have lost hope…oh my goodness! fBut I believe God is going to be working in this nation in a more profound way. I am not worried at all because I will dedicate my mind continually to Him..knowing He does and continues to answer our prayers regardless of the outcome. Our prayers move God and how He chooses to bring the results is definitely up to Him.

I agree Sam.

American Christianity has adopted so much of its tradition into their orthodoxy, that it’s impossible to tell where Christianity ends and politics starts. Most of its conservative rhetoric is actually foreign to us who aren’t used to being part of the American political climate, such their passionate cling to small government, rights to own guns, laissez faire capitalism. It’s only when we enter into US that we are force-fed that somehow we have always been heretical in our thinking. It’s at once both refreshing and intimidating.

Mike wrote: “As wrong as I think Obama is about so many things, I don’t think he has thrown the idea of America in the toilet. He will veer from the path, but he has not pulled a 180. But we all need to be careful what we tolerate.”

Has he “veered from the path?” He may have veered from the comfort zone and long cherised childhood assumptions of some. maybe from white America Mike this is defintely NOT one of your finer articles: it carries the same “Obama is not a legitimate American” strain. You know what i am discovering ? if you really want to see what is truly at the core of Americans don’t watch their religion, watch their politics

Obama really is that bad! See, the movie 2016, remember him sending that bust of Churchill back to the British, well he hates any form of Colonialism, and is simply anti-Colonial. I see this in some modern theology too these days…i.e. Jeremiah Wright, etc. Lord deliver us!

While I don’t see it as the end of America, and if you read history you will see we went through many more worse times, I also think demographically speaking, the country is losing sight of the historical values that made us great. I would say the biggest danger is that our populace is becoming more swayed by mass social media in picking folks on a popularity basis, rather than spending time becoming completely familiar with the real issues themselves.

And btw, I believe it is time yet once again for the Church to re-engage in the principles and essence of the Reformation – Ecclesia semper reformada est (always reforming)! And to my mind at least Luther always has a contemporary relevance! To those that read and care, there is an OP book, that I simply love: The Protestant Tradition, An Essay In Interpretation, by J.S. Whale, D.D. (Cambridge, 1955/1960). Maybe someone has reprinted it? Simply a fine book on the subject! 359 pages with Index; a very dense book, but readable!

Robert. Are you sure that’s it? I can’t find that on Amazon anywhere.

At 63, and watching Great Britain go down the tubes! Myself, I think America is at a real and great spiritual/religious crossroad! But yes, “demographical speaking” America has changed, and will change even more! Not to mention fincance, too.

@Nick: Yes, I have a 1960 copy in my hand (Cambridge, paperback). I have many books on the Reformation, newer and older, and this is simply one of the best!

Try some of the used on-lines books…ABEBooks. Alibris, to give a few good ones.

I see it. Surprised it’s not on Amazon.

*finance