I’m currently in a six month eldership process at my local church. This series is taken from questions asked during the process.
You are praying with folks up front after a Sunday Service and get a young man that would like you to pray for him in regards to an addiction to pornography. What would you do and how would you on the spot counsel this man?
I would share with him very briefly, first, of my own struggles with sin. I would seek to encourage him, by God’s grace, of the areas God has given me victory with the idea that he would feel the hope of Jesus to redeem all our lives.
I would then compliment him that he had the courage to come up front and be honest about this sin. The role of the Holy Spirit is to convict people of sin. The fact he is up here asking for prayer means God cares for him to be free from this sin.
I would, however, make sure I ask him about his belief in Jesus. If he’s trying to get free from pornography without Jesus as his Savior, then I need to tell him that his first priority is to trust Jesus as his Savior.
If he is a believer I would then pray thanking God that every sin of my brother’s is paid for on the cross. I would beg God that He would show my brother how to cling to his Savior and allow the power of the Holy Spirit to show him how to flee from this sin and cling to holy truth. After continuing to pray allowing the Spirit to direct how to best pray for him, I would then strongly encourage him to memorize a few verses. The Lord powerfully used Hebrews 12:11 in my life, “For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.”
Another verse very helpful for me to internalize and meditate on for times of temptation has been 1 Corinthians 10:13, “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”
God used those two verses to drag me past many sins I thought would always be a struggle. I have probably recited those verses hundreds, if not thousands, of times. I would let him know the power of God’s Word to moment-by-moment make us more like our Savior.
I might end our conversation right there without trying to accomplish too much in one interaction. If it seems like he is soaking it all up and desiring for the conversation to continue then I’d probably encourage him in two more areas.
First, I’d tell him of the powerful spiritual discipline of fasting. If this sin is wrecking havoc on his conscience and life, then I would instruct him to fast for an extended time. I would encourage him to consider fasting a day for however months or years he has been struggling with this sin. If it’s been controlling him for 5 years, then fast for 5 days. Deny yourself so you can hunger for God to free this from your life.
I’d then ask him if he’s involved in community life at the church. If he isn’t I’d strongly encourage him, and possibly practically help him, to get in a group where he can have other brothers walk alongside him at a more intimate level as he seeks victory in this area of his life by God’s gracious power.
How would you respond?
46 replies to "Elder Questions: Pornography"
Tim, how I wish more teachers had the thoughtfulness and gentleness you seem to have when guiding people along!
In addition to what you spoke of above, how about some more practical measures? Some concrete action items, other than get some support (which is good, too) and fast (which is a great piece of advice). I’m thinking of an Internet monitoring program or some such thing. Or challenge him to talk to God about it for 10 min each evening and then talk to you about it in a week (since he seems open to talking to you about it). Or some clean movies to watch to fill time alone. Or help him decide on some physical job to do outside (plant a garden, chop firewood, walk dogs or whatever). I don’t particularly know which would be the most appropriate, but it just seems like he needs to walk away with at least the bare bones of a PLAN.
Also, how about something POSITIVE to learn or meditate on, such as the meaning of marriage, Israel as spouse and story of Hagar, Mary and the loveliness of true femininity, Jesus and some of the saints as models of true masculinity, theology of the body.
One more thing- some people may respond well to thinking about the seriousness of their offenses: proverbs and warnings about adultery and fornication, reality of hell. Of course, without neglecting what you already wrote about mercy and victory and forgiveness.
Secrecy and isolation are recipes for failure in this area. In our ministry, accountability partners/groups are our primary practical tool.
favor/power to quench the desire; for great desire for the Lord; for much time with Him; openness; brokenness; for open ears to His cry “Come and be satisfied”; and sight for His great delight
Lord, all my desire is before You; and my sighing is not hidden from You. My heart throbs, my strength fails me; and the light of my eyes, even that has gone from me. Make haste to help me, O Lord, my salvation! Psalm 38:9-10,22
for we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:15-16
Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. “Why do you spend money for what is not bread, and your wages for what does not satisfy? Isa 55:1-2
The “accountabili-buddy” notion in the modern church simply makes better liars of us. There is no prescription of compelled accountability groups in the NT outside of normal church membership requirements. Private sins and their struggles are not dealt with through the intimidation of having to confess your failures and bear your soul to arbitrarily assigned or anecdotally gathered individuals but through the slow but certain lifelong process of being transformed through the Word and Spirit and receiving the absolution of God. Now we may choose to confide in someone with whom we have warranted trust with such personal/ private sin issues but asserting we must or prescribing so simply is not a universal NT protocol and in many cases harmful to many for more than one reason.
Someone might bring up “confess your sins one to another” and indeed we must but this is with reference to confessing or admitting to the person against whom you have committed a sin, just that sin in keeping reconciled to your brother or sister.
“Someone might bring up “confess your sins one to another” and indeed we must but this is with reference to confessing or admitting to the person against whom you have committed a sin, just that sin in keeping reconciled to your brother or sister.”
“13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.”
I don’t see anything in this passage which would lead me to believe that it is only referring to confessing those sins which were committed against the person. So I went to a few commentaries and sure enough a few of them took this position. Without fail this was followed by going off against the Roman Catholics for their practice of confessing to a priest. Most of the other commentaries that didn’t address the Roman Catholic angle seemed to see it as a universal command. Seems to me at least that saying this passage only refers to sins against one another has nothing to do with the text, but rather is a eisegetical insertion by those concerned with the Roman Catholic practice of confession. There is no reason to see the command to confess to one another as limited while the command to pray for one another as universal.
Michael
First I disagree that the motive of the interpretation is to thwart Catholicism though it might be addressed as a by-product. That aside and to the substantive point. At best one in opposition to what I presented as the view to be taken, one is left with only confessing sins to elders or others in order to be healed of a physical sickness caused by that sin which strongly implies ecclesiastical discipline (calling of the elders and confession of sin) which is severe enough to also have solicited God’s judgment that it necessitates a form of physical illness to lead one to repentance through confessing of the sin(s). This is quite removed from the accountabili-buddy construct that us commonly practiced by so-called accountability groups.
It seems to me that someone claiming that they have an addiction to pornography is similar to someone saying that they are addicted to stealing or some other unacceptable behavior. These aren’t addictions in the truest sense of the word. Some of you coffee drinkers out there are probably truly “addicted” to your caffeine hit in the morning. Try going a week, or a month, or a year without your coffee. Now we’re talking true addiction or dependency. Even more difficult with cigarettes, alcohol, heroin, etc. This fellow simply needs to “man up” and stop doing what he’s doing, if, in fact, he truly wants to stop. Someone needs to slap him across the face (not really) and say to him, “Snap out of it. If you want to stop doing it, then stop. Go and sin no more.”
Too much understanding, empathy, and gentleness is often just wasted on people who really don’t desire to change their behavior. If you want to stop doing it, then stop. See the error of your way and behavior and get on with living your life in a new direction.
This fellow’s not really an addict with an addiction, he simply is finally overrun with guilt, shame, and, perhaps, fear. Get over it and move on. Go and sin no more.
Hope this doesn’t sound to harsh, but this is how I see it. Don’t excuse unacceptable behavior by saying you’re “addicted” to something. He’s no more addicted to pornography than a person who goes to church three times a week is addicted to going to church. It’s simply what they choose to do.
Thom,
Respectfully, you don’t know what you are talking about. There very much can be a physical addition to pornography because of the chemicals released by the brain. The same chemicals that the brain releases as a “reward” for indulging in drugs. In fact, many porn addicts have very real withdrawal symptoms. There’s a lot of recent material about this. It’s a relatively new subject because before the Internet, the problem almost didn’t exist. The sheer volume and variety of porn on the Internet has been what’s made this possible.
I know because I’ve been there. Only be the grace of God have I been freed from this.
Jared
Indeed the battle is and always has been in the mind, soul and spirit! But, sexual sin can be very addictive, especially in the mind, as with lust, etc. as Paul says, about “to burn with passion.” (1 Cor. 7: 9) But we are all subject to this! And so the battle is a life-experience, of God’s work and control in the inner-man/person with the Holy Spirit! Btw, some scholars think that Paul’s torn in the flesh, might have been sexual lust and desire? Who knows? But we are all subject here certainly. I know as a Anglican priest and presbyter, I hear and see so many Christian people who have problems in the area of sexual lust, even more so today in our sexual permissive society! And this was certainly quite alive in Paul’s day, as we can see in 1 Cor. 6: 11, etc. But the power and victory are always ‘In Christ’, and in the power and grace of the Holy Spirit, note Gal. 5: 16 thru 25. Again, note Paul’s use of the word “practice”, verses the weakness of the flesh. Thank God for such texts too, as 1 John 1: 5-9, and chapter 2:1, etc. WE have, thanks be to God, as Christians two “Advocates” or “Comforter’s” (Parakletos, Gk.)…One above on the Throne of Grace & Glory…Christ Jesus, and the Holy Spirit within!
Weather porn is or is not an addiction is not the issue. Porn, pride, idolatry. Name the sin..believe me 30 years of engaging in all of them was difficult to break. The ONLY thing that changed my heart was walking with Jesus. Ten years later I still have strong desires to re engage in sinful acts, but only running to the word can stop my decent. I can’t think of anything as powerful to stop porn than picking up a bible instead of the computer. It’s basically impossible to sin when your face to face with the your savior.
Sexual addiction is very much a real thing and is in many ways very similar to other addictions. One can’t just say “Man up and don’t do it”; end of problem.
But like any addiction, ailment, or circumstance in this life relief and fulfillment comes at the foot of the cross. My own struggles with pornography have left me empty and desperate many times. Even though I knew it was wrong for many reasons I would still return like a dog to his vomit. It took a very structured and practical approach with help from a loving and understanding community, professional counsel, and a desire for real healing from God to break the tangible, real bonds of my addiction. My body and mind were very addicted to the sensations that came with viewing porn and masturbating.
Believe me, I tried many times to just man up and quit. To tell someone who is desperate enough to reach out for help in this area to “just quit it” is ignorant and harmful. Victory came through a very real and tangible “renewing of the mind”
“…greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world”
so I have a help to overcome my struggles.
“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me”
so I have the ability to struggle well and suffer victoriously.
Don’t dismiss porn as something so trivial that someone can just pick it up and then put it away after they learn it is wrong. Its a monster.
Tim’s approach would have been well recieved by this porn addict. It is very similar to how Christ approached me through my friend.
It seems to me that someone claiming that they have an addiction to pornography is similar to someone saying that they are addicted to stealing or some other unacceptable behavior.
It seems to me that you really don’t know what you are talking about. I must preface this by saying unequivocally that porn is a terrible sin that is a gross affront to our Holy God. I believe it grieves His heart more than many other sins due to it’s extraordinarily destructive nature. It kills marriages, it robs the believer of any semblance of joy or assurance of salvation, it is as pernicious a sin as can be imagined.
That being said, I believe this issue is much more complex than what initially meets the eye. As one who has struggled with porn addiction to varying degrees for almost 20 years, I can speak (sadly) from experience. I do not believe one can effectively deal with the situation without understanding the severity of what it is, not just from a spiritual standpoint, but from a biochemical one.
From what I have read from folks who study the brain at the biochemical level, viewing pornography (along with the accompanying self-gratification that almost always follows) mimics the biochemical reactions produced if someone were to inject heroin AND snort cocaine at the same time! One must also understand the way the brain works, i.e. how regions of the brain are responsible for logical thinking, others are emotion driven, and how those lead to our decision making. It is far too complex to summarize in this forum, but to put it as simply as possible, emotions (where the sexual centers are) tend to drive our brains decision making FAR MORE OFTEN than our logical side does. Actions like prayer and Scripture reading reside in our logical centers. This will explain why for many, it won’t matter how much they pray or read their Bible, the seemingly overwhelming urge screaming from their emotional center trumps it nearly all the time…
cont…
So what advice would I give this individual? I don’t believe that there is a one size fits all prescription, per se. Jesus did say that if your eye causes you to sin, then gauge it out. But my own personal experience has taught me that even taking radical actions won’t stop it when the flesh wants what it wants. If you are walking in the flesh and not the spirit, then in spite of all those safeguards you have erected (filters, safeeyes, etc.), you will find a way around them.
I would tell the person that while I understand how they feel, that it feels like an uncontrollable urge, that is the great deception of this sin. It isn’t uncontrollable. If Jesus, freshly crucified, blood pouring down his agony riddled face, the crunch of bone as nail pierced his flesh, gasping for air on the cross, were physically present in your living room, would your urge still feel uncontrollable? Would you still click on to the filth that contributed to our Lord of Glory’s suffering? I HIGHLY doubt it.
As this sinful desire is located in our emotional center, I believe the remedy is also an emotional one. One has to fall head over heals in love with Christ. The metaphor of Christ being the groom and we the Bride was given for a reason. We need to have a passionate love affair with our Lord.
I chose the graphic images above as a practical method of warring against the sinful desires of the flesh. In war, you need a battle plan. I know logically that God hates my sin, and I hate it too. But far too often than not, that wasn’t enough to get my brain to choose the righteous path. Scripture recitation nor prayer helped either. Those functions are mapped to our logical centers. Porn is a visceral (defined as not intellectual : instinctive, unreasoning) addiction. I needed an equally visceral image to counter it.
I honestly could go on and on about this topic, but I must get on with my day.
All of my time during the last day has been spent pulling the arrows out. I think I finally got the remains of the last one.
I’ll acknowledge the mistake of not feeling sensitive enough to the situation of some people, and being somewhat ignorant to the technical definition of “addiction”.
It still seems, however, that too often we simply make excuses for bad behavior and only enable people by not asking more of them.
At some point it seems that you have to recognize that Jesus, himself, might not have understood the insidious nature of wrong behavior. Especially is this true if you look at how he recommended to people that they deal with wrong behavior.
Bad behavior repeated over time happens because it is pleasureabe. And, of course, here I am specifically talking about sins of the flesh. Over time this repeated behavior becomes, at the very least, a pattern. An addiction? Perhaps. But, at some point, someone has to be convinced of its “wrongness”.
I’m simply wary of looking to enable people by excusing their behavior as simply something they can’t help but to do. Eventually a person has to make the conscience decision to no longer engage in certain behavior. The question seems to be, “How to do this?”, or, “Can you do this without God or God’s Grace?”
I’ve found it intriguing that often bad behavior or addictions, if you will, are explained by chemicals released in the brain over which a person has no control. On the other hand, good behavior or “goodness” repeated on a regular basis is never explained away in this manner. In other words, Morther Teresa simply couldn’t help herself, she had no choice.
Anyway, I’ve got to dress these wounds.
When word meanings expand they lose their intended use and ultimately their real meaning.
Pornography may be self-gratifying and we may be able to quantify the chemical reaction which gives the positive stimulation but none of that is truly relevant with respect to its distinction from addiction to physical substances which carry with them the properties of the addiction.
The fact is that ending many legitimate behaviors produces withdrawal symptoms. That does not make them a true “addict”. That demeans the real meaning and function of the word.
Missy M,
You are truly uninformed on this subject. I suggest you educate yourself before demeaning the struggles that so many have. A wealth of information is just a Google search away, but you can start here. http://yourbrainonporn.com/understanding_porn_addiction
Pornography may be self-gratifying and we may be able to quantify the chemical reaction which gives the positive stimulation but none of that is truly relevant with respect to its distinction from addiction to physical substances which carry with them the properties of the addiction. The fact is that ending many legitimate behaviors produces withdrawal symptoms. That does not make them a true “addict”. That demeans the real meaning and function of the word.
Missy,
Before I respond, what exactly is the point of this statement? Are you merely trying to say that it isn’t really an addiction because you aren’t ingesting some kind of chemical into your body?
Jared
Your ignorance regarding what I know or do not know and your meeting everyone you disagree with by insisting they lavk education on the matter or don’t know what they are talking about is both arrogant and a form of fanatacism.
I have not only read what you suggest I read but much, much more. I have several friends who are professional therapists and we have discussed this at length.
They, too, believe that the expanded definition of addiction here is not helpful. Save the crusading and absolutism for something a bit more absolute.
Marvin
Are you suggesting that any and all withdrawal symptoms means a person is addicted to something?
Can someone please show us scriptures that EXPLICITLY state that seeing naked people is sin?
I say this in the context of husband/ wife relations and their use of outside material (video, text, or images) for their own private benefit.
So the question is, are they sinning if in the privacy of their own bedroom watch a video?
If so, where does it end? Is it a sin to watch Titanic or Braveheart (since both have nudity)?
If not, why not?
Consistency, reality and biblical principles…. not hypocrisy, holier than thou attitudes and someone’s OPINION about right and wrong.
Missy,
I didn’t suggest anything. I asked what I thought was a simple question that I really would like to know the answer to.
Can someone please show us scriptures that EXPLICITLY state that seeing naked people is sin?
I say this in the context of husband/ wife relations and their use of outside material (video, text, or images) for their own private benefit.
So the question is, are they sinning if in the privacy of their own bedroom watch a video?
If so, where does it end? Is it a sin to watch Titanic or Braveheart (since both have nudity)?
If not, why not?
If some will argue that watching Titanic is wrong because of the nudity, then what about the partial nudity we see on TV (Bikini, revealing cleavage etc)? Is watching THAT sin?
Consistency, reality and biblical principles…. not hypocrisy, holier than thou attitudes and someone’s OPINION about right and wrong.
Missy, I think you are the only one who is trying for absolutism here, since you are trying to exclude things from being described as addiction. People doing actual research on this simply disagree. Sexual addiction is every bit as real as alcohol addiction, and depending on the person, is often the more difficult problem to stop.
I say this as someone who has abused alcohol, tobacco, and prescription stimulants. None of those sucked me back in more than porn. What people don’t understand is, when porn becomes an addiction, people aren’t using it (primarily) for sexual gratification. They are doing it to get high. In fact, people on meth view porn to get even higher than they would normally. Getting high from the hours and hours spent viewing pornography without any release is not that much different than doing drugs. I would know. To be blunt, orgasm is the last thing a porn addict wants. They want to delay that for as long as possible so as to prolong the high. That’s the difference between a porn (and other sexual addictions) and someone who simply enjoys porn.
I’ve noted your behavior on other threads, so I know this conversation won’t be fruitful. I don’t believe you’ll give one inch of ground. This is the last I’ll say about it. Please consider that there might be something you are wrong about.
Marvin,
Okay but do you have that view? Do you believe any time there is some kind of withdrawal experience of any kind then this is the result of an “addiction”. If you can tell me this it will be much easier answering your question in that I may know your frame of reference.
Missy
Jared
If you want a discussion based on the socialistic system where the wealth of being right and having a better argument is redistributed, so be it, I am not interested in that.
If you wish to gain ground, take it by your arguments and not begging someone to give it to you or having a fit when they don’t.
Missy
“At best one in opposition to what I presented as the view to be taken, one is left with only confessing sins to elders or others in order to be healed of a physical sickness caused by that sin which strongly implies ecclesiastical discipline (calling of the elders and confession of sin) which is severe enough to also have solicited God’s judgment that it necessitates a form of physical illness to lead one to repentance through confessing of the sin(s). This is quite removed from the accountabili-buddy construct that us commonly practiced by so-called accountability groups.”
This interpretation is highly unlikely given the text. Compare the command to confess to one another with the command right after it to pray for one another. Are only the elders supposed to pray for their congregations? Notice additionally that with prayer it refers to the prayers of a “righteous person”, not just an elder (who presumably is such). If it had been intended to refer only to elders James could’ve said so as he did just a little bit earlier, but in this sentence he didn’t. Neither one of the interpretations you have given is plausible from the text.
Additionally your concern with the accountability system in some churches is that it encourages people to deny and lie about sin rather than confess it. However, would not confessing to elders create the same problem? People can deny their sins to whoever they like and receive the consequences thereof. This does not render the command invalid. Whether or not people lie about their sin in any given system is quite the red herring. Furthermore the mere fact that something isn’t in the Bible does not render it wrong or unfruitful per se. Generally I believe the burden would be on you to show that a given behavior is contrary to the Bible.
Micheal
Actually the burden is on those attempting to prescribe it. If you had been paying attention to what I have said, and I assert you haven’t because of your recent comment, I did not say that it is wrong with any absolution but that it is not prescriptive which is how it is being used, as if it is a must. No such prescription exists.
Further, where it is prescribed it is quite specific and Matthew provides the context and boundaries of such things and it, in no way, suggests the silly accountabili-buddy system used by many.
Now, if you wish to voluntarily do that, you are at liberty to do so. But prescribing it as essential or attempting to compel others by suggesting it is necessary for genuine or maximum spiritual health, well you are at a dry well with no such prescription in the Bible.
Do you believe any time there is some kind of withdrawal experience of any kind then this is the result of an “addiction”.
Hi Missy,
I must admit that I do not entirely understand the question you are posing. Defining your understanding of withdrawal would maybe help me understand where you are coming from.
Perhaps if I explained more of where I am coming from we could come to a better understanding. I believe that addiction “expresses” it in two forms, physical and psychological. I don’t think any addiction is purely one or the other, but certainly many are more one than the other. Hardcore drugs for example are more physical than psychological. Pornography is more of a psychological than physical.
Obviously I didn’t experience classic chemical withdrawal (i.e. tremors, vomiting, cold sweats, etc) when I stopped viewing porn for an extended period. But there is a psychological withdrawal that occurs. E.g. My brain would associate certain benign activities (like sitting at a computer to check e-mail) with the viewing of porn and even though I had sat down with no intention of doing so, I found myself inflamed with every sinful desire to watch the smut because that was the pattern that had been established, very much a pavlovian dog type reaction. I don’t know if you would call that “withdrawal” or not. I’m just glad that by the Grace of God, those patterns of sin have been broken.
I want to say for the record that I understand the resistance to say this is an addiction because it does lend itself to excuse making (i.e. “I just can’t help myself”). But that is an excuse borne from the deceptiveness of sin. All sin we commit is by choice, yet as long as we dwell in these tents of flesh, it is a choice we will choose to make more frequently than we would ever want to admit. Sin wants our regenerated spirit to think that we have no power over its base “needs”. The discipline is making Christ our MOST basic need.
You used a qualifier, “psychological withdrawal” , precisely what is that verses what you call “classic withdrawal”?
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Missy,
I agree that is something was being prescribed in a mandatory way the duty would be on the person prescribing things to show from Scripture that they are mandatory. I just have never been to a church where being in an accountability group or something of the sort was considered mandatory, nor do I think that is what the OP is suggesting. Rather the OP, and the churches I have attended in my life, would suggest that accountability groups may be helpful for some people in some circumstances and recommend them where leadership feels it appropriate. In fact the OP doesn’t even mention accountability groups per se. Are they a cure all for sin?? Certainly not. Can they be helpful in some cases such that I think one would be justified in recommending them? I think so.
If it is recommending and not insisting or prescribing and not following up a recommendation as if it is a requirement or prescribed even though one says it is only a recommendation and in exceptional rather than normative discipling contexts, I might understand such a rare event but that is quite removed from its common use.
Don’t know what churches you’ve been attending.
It really does not matter, in the end. We are ultimately talking about and debating principle. But for your curiosity I have attended a d become familiar with many congregstions , sects and denominations including their doctrine and practice.
Which denominations have accountability groups as being a mandatory part of their practices? Any? I have never been to a church where being part of an accountability group was promoted heavier than attending the men’s breakfast or the men’s Bible Study. Neither one of which is per se in the Bible (also missing – the order of items in the church service, exactly which music and style of music to play, whether or not to have a potluck afterwords, exactly how to take communion, so on and so forth), but both of which are edifying to many.
I just find it really odd that you are so against accountability partners and seem to think that it is detrimental in many cases. I have seen the opposite among many friends and acquaintances who speak of having someone to share their struggles with and walk alongside them and provide wise counsel, without condemning them as one of the things which helped them overcome their struggles with sin. If it isn’t forbidden by Scripture and is found to be beneficial by many I’d really like to know who the heck you think you are to condemn it??
Micheal
Here is a link to a recent article, interestingly right here at Theologica under the Between Two Worlds blog link:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2013/11/22/success-in-ministry-is-dangerous-accountability-doesnt-work-and-other-thoughts-on-falling-from-grace/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+between2worlds+%28Between+Two+Worlds%29
Which originates at Reformation 21:
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2013/11/when-your-world-caves-in.php
The author said almost exactly what I said a few days after I posted my thoughts:
“accountability doesn’t work – If you’re going to sleep with your brother’s wife, you are probably going to lie to your brother about it. I’m not convinced about men meeting up in groups to keep them accountable. … The problem of formalising groups like this, is that you prepare for the meeting and just get better at lying”
I am a 56 yr old professing Christian. Exposed to porn as a child in grade school. I was also exposed to Christianity at the same time. In the Navy I asked Jesus to forgive my sins and he did. I struggled so much with porn and other things over the next 30 years or so. The fear of dying in this condition was the only thing that helped me . I was able to pray and meet a Christian woman online who like me had never been married. We now live life together, her and her dogs. Jesus said, fear God , the one who is able to cast you into Hell. I still struggle some and will till I die, but I am slowly winning the battle. I believe Thom Waters is on to the truth.
Missy,
That guy certainly said essentially the same thing you did. Unfortunately he, like you, fails to address the many men and woman who claim to have been helped by such groups. The author even tacitly acknowledges the importance of the type of relationships that these groups are designed to foster. No one is saying that these groups are a cure all for everyone and no one is saying that people, even in groups such as these, won’t lie and cover up their sin. What I am saying is that if people find the helpful, edifying and beneficial who are you or I to condemn them absent a clear Biblical mandate to do so? The author fails to address this and just makes bald statements concerning lying to the accountability group which is ultimately a red herring.
Michael
And I acknowledged that in exceptional circumstances it might be helpful. And I have condemned no one, you are being histrionic. Frankly it seems until I agree with you, you will remain upset.
Your “exceptional circumstances” is the issue though. What is wrong with a church having a accountability group for those who are interested in being a part of it and find it beneficial to their Christian walk? You seem to tacitly acknowledge that churches and denominations aren’t forcing people to be a part of these and in almost all cases they are just one of numerous things being offered by churches for the growth and edification of their members, such as more traditional Bible Studies. You also seem to also acknowledge that at least in some cases they are beneficial. The issue of lying is a red herring. So why raise the issue in such an absolutist manner as you initially did?
I didn’t raise it in an absolutist manner. The reason I would avoid making such a group a regular feature of ecclesiastical exercise has already been stated. They should be exceptional. As a norm they establish a precedent and pattern I do not believe can be sustained when thoroughly vetted by Scripture.
I would answer this question similarly to Tim but with any consuming addiction – getting more is never enough and with this kind of addiction it can ruin relationships/jobs/emotions so it MUST be treated in the context of community & spiritual growth.
To just answer “be obedient” to the truth in the Bible is NOT enough.
[…] the spot counseling: How would you answer a young man requesting prayer for a pornography addition? Or a couple living together who feel they are spiritually […]
@Missy
I understand that if you were running a church you wouldn’t have groups like these because you don’t find them beneficial on the whole. That is OK. However, if a churches leadership does see benefit to having a group like this isn’t that a pastoral decision for that church for which some degree of deference and latitude should be shown? On the other hand if you think Scripture speaks against having a group like this, as you seem to indicate in your last sentence, please make your case. I just can’t think of a sound case which could be made against it from Scripture, but I could be mistaken.
Well I give up. I spent a lot of time writing a reply to this discussion but every way I try to post it, I keep being told it’s flagged as spam! Oh well.
If a church chooses through whatever authority structure it has, whether it be by the Pastor alone, the Pastor and body of Elders and so on, to have such a group, that is up to them. I think they are wrong but I certainly recognize they have the right to be wrong.
As to making a case against what the Bible does not prescribe, I do not have to do so since it is not prescribed. However, if it is suggested that it is wise, sure I can make a case, it is called discretion.