I was talking to someone the other day. He was distraught and depressed about his faith. Though he had experienced a dramatic conversion a few years back, the last year has been full of trials and temptations which lead him back into a lifestyle which he thought was in his rear-view mirror. Along with his return to some former habits, he has entered into a nightmare of doubt. His primary doubt comes from his ability to return to the Lord, having, according to him, “rejected the gift of God” and “returning to his own vomit.”
While the issues are complex and I do not wish to enter into a dialogue about this person’s spiritual state, I do want to mention a verse that has put him in a spiritually catatonic state. He believes that like it was with Esau, it is too late for him. He believes that the repentance that he seeks has been removed from the table. In other words, he believes that there is a time when repentance is no longer possible.
Here is the verse he referred to in support of this pain:
Heb. 12:17
“For you know that even afterward, when he [Esau] desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.” (NAS)
The impression is that Esau rejected the blessing of God through his birthright (which is true). When he later realized how fool-hearted this was and turned to God for repentance of his sin, he was rejected. It was just too late. I don’t believe this is the case. Let me explain.
The question is What did Esau seek with tears? What is the “it” of Heb. 12:17 (“he sought for it with tears”)? Many people assume that it is repentance. While the translation I used (NAS) leaves the question open for interpretation, the word order in English leaves the other possibilities obscure. But, at face value in the reading of most translations, it does seem like it is repentance that Esau is seeking. Notice the readings in these other translations:
KJV: For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
ESV: For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
NKJ: For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.
NLT: You know that afterward, when he wanted his father’s blessing, he was rejected. It was too late for repentance, even though he begged with bitter tears.
RSV: For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
All of these translations at least give the impression that what Esau sought for was basic repentance. If this were the case, this is a cause for great concern since it would teach that we may be able to turn to God with tears, truly seeking repentance, but be unable to find it. It would teach that there may be people who truly want to turn from their sin, but cannot find the ability to repent. It may teach that there exists the possibility for you to approach the throne of God requesting the gift of repentance and be turned down. It may teach that there is a time in this life when it is just too late, no matter how much you desire to change. That is scary.
However, there is another, and I believe, more faithful way to understand this passage. You see the pronoun “it” has not one but two possible anticedents. When structured like the translations above, the common way to read this in English is to look for the closest possibility as the referent to what Esau sought. That is just the way the English language works. And the closest referent to “it” is indeed “repentance.” However, the Greek language goes by a different set of rules. Word order is secondary to inflection. The word “it” is a feminine pronoun. This means that the noun which it modifies will be feminine too. In this verse there are two feminine nouns: “repentance” and “blessing.” Therefore, there are two viable options here for what Esau sought with tears. It was either repentance or the blessing. Neither is necessarily preferred based on grammar and syntax, therefore we must look to the context of the story the author of Hebrews is alluding to. So let’s look at the context of the story of Esau.
When we turn back to the narrative in Genesis 27, we see Esau being tricked out of his blessing by both Jacob and his mother. After Esau found out he had been tricked and that Isaac had blessed Jacob rather than himself, he broke down. Notice how the story goes:
Gen 27:35-38
And he [Isaac] said [to Esau], “Your brother came deceitfully and has taken away your blessing.” 36 Then he said, “Is he not rightly named Jacob, for he has supplanted me these two times? He took away my birthright, and behold, now he has taken away my blessing.” And he said, “Have you not reserved a blessing for me?” 37 But Isaac replied to Esau, “Behold, I have made him your master, and all his relatives I have given to him as servants; and with grain and new wine I have sustained him. Now as for you then, what can I do, my son?” 38 Esau said to his father, “Do you have only one blessing, my father? Bless me, even me also, O my father.” So Esau lifted his voice and wept. (NAU, emphasis mine).
You see that Esau did indeed weep. He did indeed repent. But what was it he repented and wept over? It was the loss of his blessing. The context in Genesis is clear. I think we must see the passage in Hebrews through the context of the original storyline. The author of Hebrews is saying that Esau sought his blessing with tears, not repentance.
I think some of these translations do a good job of bringing out this nuance:
TNIV: Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.
NJB: As you know, when he wanted to obtain the blessing afterward, he was rejected and, though he pleaded for it with tears, he could find no way of reversing the decision.
NRS: You know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, even though he sought the blessing with tears.
NAB: For you know that later, when he wanted to inherit his father’s blessing, he was rejected because he found no opportunity to change his mind, even though he sought the blessing with tears.
NET: For you know that later when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no opportunity for repentance, although he sought the blessing with tears.
It is unfortunate when Bible translations seek to leave the options open in situations such as this. This is one of those places where I believe translation philosophy militates against the clearer meaning of the text. I understand the reasoning in many cases, but here, the casualties are plenty as the implications are severe. Normally we would seek to leave ambiguity where it truly exists. I get that. But can we really say that this passage presents us with such a dilemma? Its it really ambiguous enough to leave the English word order in such a misleading way? I think that this is only a difficult passage because of the (albiet) intentional ambiguity left in the text by many modern translations.
I believe that the Bible teaches that there is never a day when repentance is beyond our grasp. Even the thief on the cross was able to find humble repentance in his words “remember me when you come into your kingdom.” This is the wonder of our God and the Gospel message. God’s love makes repentance always acceptable no matter where you find yourself in life. If you seek repentance, you will find it. God’s grace is that radical.
Mat 7:7-8
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
226 replies to "Could Esau Repent? The Difficulty of Heb. 12:17"
William and John Bartlett,
I have been in a state of utter despair for the past 1.5 years. Like you both described, I had deceived myself into thinking that I was saved when I really was not. I said the sinner’s prayer as a teenager, and subsequently began to read my Bible, knew by heart numerous scriptures, attended church regularly, and participated in several outreach ministries. As an adult, God began to convict me that I was not saved (that I needed Jesus). I argued with God that I had to be saved because of my prayer and all of the subsequent works. God continued to convict me, but I kept refusing to listen (I was too busy doing church work). It was only after the conviction to turn to Jesus stopped that I truly realized that I was lost. And now, like you both, I fear that I am permanently lost. I had abundant head knowledge but no heart knowledge. I feel like I am here on earth physically, but that my spirit died 1.5 years ago. I have no zeal for life, but am not eager for death. My family continues to tell me that I just need to call upon the Lord and He will hear me. They do not understand my utter hopelessness and why I can’t just turn back to God, especially since I was raised in church and appeared to be walking with God. I know that I am lost and I know that I need Jesus, but can not rid myself of this belief that I am no longer able to repent and that though I professed a love for God and others it was hypocrisy.
I had never noticed how many passages in the Bible referred to the wicked, but now every time I open my Bible, that is all that jumps out. I truly feel like I am just beginning to experience the utter fear of falling into the hands of the living God.
William,
in response to your questions to John bartlett, i am offering my own responses as i find myself in the same terrifying state.
1) I’m curious to know what is going on with you and how you are handling this.
I am in utter despair. I have lost all zest for life. I quit my job in 2012 because i could not concentrate on work, all my thoughts are preoccupied with hell and damnation. I find it challenging to even complete the simplest daily tasks and even maintain personal hygiene. I barely communicate with my husband and family. They are true Christians that love The Lord. I feel like I have nothing in common with them and that everything that comes out of my mouth is a lie. How can I say I love them when I know that the love of God is not in me?
Are you desiring God’s grace, true holiness in life, etc., but feeling no link with God?
I m not sure how to answer this question. Yes, I desire God’s grace and to have fellowship with Him. I desire to be saved from my sins. But i must be lying because why would God have hardened my heart, unless He knew that I would never truly seek Him? I am so confused. I know that I am a sinner and that my sins are killing me and that Jesus is the only person that can save me. But I feel like there is an impossible barrier (my hard heart) that prevents me from turning to Jesus.
Have you given up all hope?
Yes. The conviction that I experienced as God was trying to draw me to Jesus and the finality when that conviction departed alongside the numerous scriptures in God’s word that warn of hardened heart, falling away, unpardonable sin all have me in a state of utter hopelessness. I feel like I am reading my Bible in vain, trying to reproduce the conviction that I once felt. But knowing deep down that that conviction can only come from God, not me and that He gave me numerous chances and i rejected them. pharisees searched scripture looking for eternal life, but Jesus told them He is life.
Stephanie you say that your husband is a true Christian. This verse may help;
1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Email me at clintvarner.com please. I’m
Going through this too. Can you not feel conviction?
Everyday life is getting more difficult. My godly wife is able to see God’s goodness in every circumstance, while it’s as if I have blinders on. I feel like I’m in several vicious cycles. One is as I feel hopelessly headed to hell, I become more and more preoccupied with myself and less and less able to think of others. This terrible, empty self-absorbtion is the fruit of my ways for loving myself for so long instead of really loving God with all my heart and others as myself. But how to get my mind off myself and onto others escapes me as I think about what is awaiting me. I have also allowed the depression over all this to cause me to become very lazy. Also, whereas I used to be a very confident person (probably overly confident), I’ve lost all confidence as I don’t feel the Lord’s presence with me. I feel like everything I do goes wrong or is doomed to failure, the result of realizing the absence of God, who give all ability. I was such a fool– only now do I realize that the infinitely most wonderful blessing is to have a genuine, vital relationship with Jesus Christ. I foolishly let the things of this world gain value in my heart. Now I see the sheer vanity of these things. I am in anguish over my stupidity– having so much light, but not living in the reality of it in my heart. I find myself continually desiring to go back in time, to points where I should have realized that I did not really belong to Christ and repent, but there is no going back. Still, even in this despair, I continue to cry out to God during the sleepless hours of the night (and during the day as well), hoping that His grace and lovingkindness and mercy will triumph over my sinfulness and hard-heartedness. I know God is good and that this is all the result of my own sinful heart, but in spite of this I find myself struggling not to become bitter over this. I know it is the epitome of foolishness to be angry at God– my heart is so wicked. God, help me! You are my…
I was told to partipate in holy communion regularly
William,
I find myself in the same state of mind and utter despair. I know you said that you cry out to God, so I wondered if you still read your Bible and/or attend church? (I do, but only find terror and fear in reading the Bible and feel like a true hypocrite while in church. But I know that Jesus is the only way…oh if only my evil, unbelieving heart would believe.)
Do you find that everywhere that you go or look that you see Christ or Christians? I don’t know how I could have been so blind. It seems that everywhere I go now I see the icathys or an empty cross, or a scripture verse, or a billboard that says “God listens”, or a Christian thanking God for His love and mercy. I want to believe that there is still hope for me, but in my heart i believe that God is mocking me. (Proverbs 1 -because you would not listen, nor have any or my reproof, I will laugh at your calamity and will mock you when terror strikes you.)
Have you lost all hope or do you believe that perhaps God will have mercy on you?
Stephanie
Yes, I am experiencing all the same things you mentioned in your post. Several have said that I could not have apostatized or I wouldn’t still be seeking after God. When I mention the Esau passage or Prov. 1, they dismiss it as I’m taking it out of context (and that I’m being proud/arrogant for not listening to what everyone is trying to tell me).
Like you, I struggle with the idea of God’s rejection and mocking. When I even hint at this with anyone, they counter with God’s unfailing love and it’s not His will that any should perish and that He will not cast out anyone who comes to Him. I find myself trying to force myself to believe what they are saying– but I can’t get rid of the hardness I physically feel in my heart. When I mention this, the response is that I’m letting my feelings control me over truth or that I am trying to blame this all on God. But then I feel worse because I know I’ll be held accountable for my thoughts and words about Him.
One of the many preacher/theologian friends I have talked with about this (and there have been many over the past 1.5 years) told me, “If I go, go clinging to the cross”. As many have told me, Satan is wreaking havoc with my mind. Sometimes I feel I have lost all hope. I can’t say that I believe God will have mercy on me, but I do still hope for it. As my dear wife keeps reminding me, “God is good”. I must combat any tendency of bitterness toward Him that I know Satan is trying to stir up, with that truth– God is good. Because He’s good, it’s not His will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, and that He will freely forgive the wicked if they will turn from their ways and thoughts (Isa. 55). He is merciful. He waits for the prodigal to return. He wants us to repent. As my wife keeps telling me, I must concentrate on those truths rather than the negative ones Satan is trying to use to stir up bitterness. Such stirring up we know can’t be from God. I…
Hi William can I have talk to you plspls 😭
I have struggled with the same issues but I know that God is working on me!! For 3 years I have struggled. But God has pointed out scripture for me and I hope this helps anyone here that is dealing with the same despair as I have;
John 6:44
2nd Chronicles 7:14
Isaiah 1:18
Matthew 16:18- Where Jesus asks his desciples who people say he is and then asks Peter who he says he is and Peter says you are the Christ and Jesus then tells him , Blessed are you Peter because you did not come up with this from yourself but because God the Father has revealed it to you (not exact qoute) In other words : If your eyes are open to your sin and your need for forgiveness , its not you randomly seeing this but God the Father Drawing you , now refer to John 6:44!
Do not give up, Satan is seeking who he may devour. He does not want to lose a good sinner!! Just like any major league team about to lose their best player will do all they can to keep them, so will Satan. Do not give up. Keep studing God’s prescious word and keep praying. He has promised all who seek him WILL find him and God can not lie!!
Now, I know what you are talking about when you say every time you read the Bible all you get out of it is warnings/punishements etc. I was the same way. however I kept on , and on and on and I can say that finally I am seeing “the light at the end of the tunnel” Am I 100% where I want to be with God? No. But I can see his hand at work in my heart and that in itself after 3 years of despair has me excited. Now , God is not a respector of Persons. So if he and he is, doing this for me, he will do it for you.
Susan, many of them do not understand. The root of the problem is legalism and self righteousness. Saving faith is finding his promises and trusting in him. After all. He is your creator regardless of who you are. Do you really think you are so smart and intellectual that you are going to outsmart or outrun THE LORD. nope. That’s their problem. It’s not that they can’t repent. It’s that they Don’t want to. It’s the same road everyone. The LORD is not a fool that you will not reap what you’ve sown. So be like David. As the parable of the widow women. Pray without ceasing. Is it not all about revelation. You are his creation after all. He loves you. He doesn’t delight in the perishing of the wicked. Most of them are self righteous and think that they themselves are seeking GOD. But they fail to understand. No Man SEEKS THE LORD. It’s not about Salvation. It’s about Jesus.
Oh my–These poor folks need some good Bible teaching. What suffering they are going through because they have such a limited view of “who God is” and “what He has done.”
Get rid of all this trying to save yourselves and listen to the message of His grace through the cross! If it is all up to you or me, or anyone else, we might as well forget it, it can’t be done that way.
Oh how you need sound Bible teaching, and to get away from all the “helpers” and teachers who want you to work your way into Heaven. When God saves you by His grace, He will never cast you aside, never! No way!
Much of the Book of Hebrews falls into a different context than what you are in, you’re not Esau, and you’re not locked out of God’s presence; God actually does love you, and His love has teeth in it. Will you dare to believe God is so much bigger, so much more loving, so much more able and eager to save you than you’ve ever imagined!
I’ve been almost where you are now and good Bible teaching was the tool He used to bring me out of that horrible pit.
Dear Lord, I pray with my whole heart that the people who have posted here and feel they have lost their salvation…or were never saved, realize that Your love and grace is abundant for all who desire the salvation You sent through Christ Jesus. That they realize and understand that the doubts they have are normal in this spiritual warfare we all battle. Please let them have the peace that passes all understanding that they are saved by merely believing and that it is religious piety that is keeping them “feeling” the way they do…or perhaps, depression/mental illness (which is not a sin..the brain can become ill just like any other part of the body).. I beg You Lord to come over them like a calm wave and that they will soon see that religion is not what saves anyone…but the simple faith of knowing Jesus as Your Son. Let them know again and again that they have power over Satan…as Jesus did when he was tempted…..they can tell him to flee and he will. Sin is in all of us because of the fall of mankind and because they realize this….all is not lost. There is hope in knowing our weaknesses. I ask that You help them dress in the whole armor of God so they can defeat the enemy. He is the cause of their grief and loving how he has made them think and feel. You did not make salvation impossible. Jesus came to save not condemn. I pray they can overcome what has them thinking they are not saved. I ask all of this in Jesus Christ’s name. Amen
Thanks for the encouragement– it helps! Susan, I’m wondering if you can elaborate a bit more on how you are seeing God work in your heart after such a long time of despair. During those 3 years did you doubt that you were a true believer? Did you think you had hardened your neck beyond repair? Did you find yourself at times bitter in your heart towards God, even though you were struggling against it because you knew in your head that you were responsible and that He is good and righteous and no one can bring a just charge against Him? These are matters I wrestle with, among others. Thanks.
Guys im also in a state of discomfort but all who are like that should check David Wilkerson’s “the awful consequences of backsliding”i know the title is not attractive but the sermon is really good
If youre struggling with assurance God bless you all
During this, yes I had thoughts come to my mind that , maybe Jesus was not real but quickly dismissed them as I knew that was not true. How can I deny the one who saved me so long ago? In the end , I knew in my heart I believed, if I did not why would I be bothered? I have, however, worried that I may have hardened my heart beyond all hope. I pleaded with God to undo the hardness of the lie that I have allowed to enter into my heart of not being able to be forgiven. My mind accepted the scriptures I gave in my last post but it was my heart still failing me to believe it. We both know that , salvation is by Grace through Faith. We believe with our hearts not our minds. So that is the problem that I , you and many others are struggling with. Satan , upon the moment that we was convicted of our sinful living and was repentant toward God, pounced on us. When we came back to Christ, we did not automatically start back where we left off. We have to rebuild our relationship with him. Therefore we are weak and Satan was able to lay that lie in our heart and we have believed it. (Good to refer to the parable Jesus gave of the seeds and the various grounds they fell on)We Can not deny that we have believed the lie otherwise this would of just been a passing thought and would not of tormented us. So what do we do now that we see the problem? Scripture , the entire bible, talks of repetance and forgiveness. Peter asked Jesus – How often shall we forgive a brother who sins against us? Jesus says 70×7 in other words always. Jesus would not command us to be so forgiving if he is not. He is our leader and we are to follow and be like him.
So here is the solution. First lets see what we can do about our Faith that seems to be damaged. Without faith salvation is impossible.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Stay in the word of God. I have and am repeatedly reading over the scriptures that talk of forgiveness, (continued)
specifically forgiveness after sinning.
Prodigal Son
Near the Entire O.T. Israel kept going away from God and worshipping idols, fornicating etc. God kept pleading with them to repent , showing mercy upon their return.
Malachi 3:6 “For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Then again ,
John 6:44 – Your heart is troubled. Conviction by the Holy Spirit has come , you want to repent , and Satan has pounced.
Btw, lets just go on and agree that God never does anything for no reason. God would not send the Holy Spirit to convict you of sin if He would not forgive you!
Lastly,
Revelations 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove they candlestick out of his place, except (EXCEPT) thou repent.
Here we have the Angels of the seven churches and Christ is pointing out the sin in the Church. He tells the church of Ephesus that He has seen all the good they did but He had something against them! They had left their first love (Christ) (vs 4) and he tells them REPENT or I will remove your candlestick out of its place (Jesus Christ is the light without Christ we have no light). Jesus would not forgive them and not forgive us. Conviction on our heart, our seeing our sin and need for forgiveness is evidence we can be restored.
“…let him turn to the Lord…for he will freely pardon” (Isaiah 55:7).
“I will heal their waywardness and love them freely…” (Hosea 14:4)
Not to keep going on and on. I just can relate to people here and I do not believe I finished answering William’s question to me.
How can I see God working in my heart? Because I am believing that I can recieve forgiveness. It is God that changes our hearts, not ourselves. Only God can perform the miracle of saving a sinner. Without God, we would never acknowledge our need for Christ or believe to come to him.
It is a HARD road back William. However just as David prayed for forgiveness in Psalms 51 and trusted God to do so, we too can have assurance that God will heal our backslidings and restore us.
I take the Esau reference in Hebrews to be eschatological in context. I think it may mean that at the final judgment, some will want to suddenly repent but find their situations irreversible. Others have done a good job at pointing out why faith has to be recoverable (also James 5:19-20).
Thank you, Susan. In spite of my desire and often determined resolutions to repent of my sin ways of thinking and selfishness, I still keep continuing to fail. I keep reminding myself of the passages you mention above, but I can’t escape the reality that I keep failing, especially and primarily in loving God and others more than myself. It’s become such a mind-game. How can I get these things from my head into my heart? Only God’s Spirit can work these things into my heart. I cry out for Him to do that, but I keep failing on my part. I’m curious– are you able to function basically or do you battle severe depression to the point that you feel dysfunctional? Do you have a hard time reading Scripture and going to church? Thanks again– it does help to talk with someone who’s gone/going through something of the same thing.
William, you are at the place where you know now that scripture tells you , you can come back to God, yet your heart does not believe it only your mind. This is probably the hardest part of it all……..waiting on God. Our faith had/has been damaged and it needs to be repaired. You said it yourself, only God can do that. How can God do this though? What IS our part? Reading God’s word. Fellowshipping with other believers. Remember , faith comes by hearing the word of God , whether by preaching or by you reading it yourself. We do our part by reading God’s word and going to church, God does the rest.
Yes I have many of times thought, what is the point in going to church, what is the point of reading the Bible. My doctor even prescribed me anti-depressants which I did not take cause I knew the root of my depression was spiritual and no medicine made by man was going to help it.
Now you just stay in the word and keep going to church even when you do not want to do it. We do have a enemy. As long as he has you not reading the Bible and not attending church he is winning. Convide in your pastor , or find a church so you have a pastor if you have not already. That is a pastor’s job. A reason God appointed them to be the shepard of the church. Obviously not THE shepard that is Christ. (rabbit trail sorry) –
You said it best, “How do I get it into my heart not into my head”. That is part of the miracle God does when he restores someone to him. Only God can do it. He just told us how to go about it. Stay in God’s word , stay in Church. I will pray for you, you pray for me and God will show up. He is faithful.
I appologize how long it took me to reply , I had internet issues.
Hi brothers and sisters,everyone who is struggling to get back to the Lord should search on youtube “God and the Universe” by user John 3:16 and watch that video.IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE!!! SHALOM
Susan: I’m curious how you are doing. Do you sense that the Lord is restoring you? I have gone through some very rough days lately. Last night I struggled with some very dark thoughts about God that I know from Scriptures is not true (He is good, love, holy, etc.). I know Satan is trying to drag me down a path of bitterness and worldly sorrow– a path I do not want to go down. I am reading Scripture and continuing to go to church, although it has become spotty and admittedly for selfish reasons rather than to glorify God.
Hi Susan,
I’ve been reading this article and all of the comments people have made. I must admit it was depressing seeing the comments where people just gave up hope.
I’m currently seeking help from a couple in my church here in London, England, but I thought I would send you a quick message on here because I can relate to you.
I am struggling quite a bit with this myself and so if it doesn’t sound to weird, do you mind sending me an email so we could talk more? My email address is: [email protected]
Many thanks,
Simon
William, thank you for asking about me. I am doing good. Yes, I know that the Lord is restoring me. I know this because otherwise , I would not been made broken over my sin. Likewise, I know that God is dealing with you, otherwise you would not be broken over yours. Sin blinds us. God, has removed our blinders to see our sin and need for forgiveness. That is one of the 3 things Christ said that the Holy Spirit would do. 1. Convict of Sin. 2. Convict of Righteousness and 3. Convict of Judgement.
Without the Holy Spirit , we would have no concern for the way we had been living…..but now William, we have been fretting because we see our sin and need for forgiveness, we know and are again aware of the judgement to come
We also know God is not going to send his Holy Spirit to convict us of these things if he was not also willing to forgive and pardon them. God does not waste time or effort. If we have gone too far, the Holy Spirit would not strive with us.
The problem William is we allowed satan to put a seed of doubt in us and we have allowed it to grow and take root. We need to root up the unbelief and allow faith to take its place. – Easier said than done, yes I agree. It is possible as again, the Holy Spirit has dealt and or is dealing with us.
Please keep me in your prayers. A couple months ago while reading the Bible it was like the veil of the meaning of the scriptures was lifted. I was drawn to Hebrews 10:26 and it seemed that immediately I was convicted. I went forward at 11 years of age and was led by the spirit to do so. I then fell away gradually into sin but later returned to church, but now i feel that i was only attending church because it was what my family did and what i had grown up doing. Part of my family believes that you cannot lose your salvation (once saved do what you want type), but i know now that is not possible. I feel like my prayers bounce off the ceiling and the more I try the worse my thoughts get. I will keep you all in my prayers that you have not sinned beyond repentance. I feel that only a miracle can repair my relationship with God.
Tim, your right only a miracle can repair your relationship with God,however, a miracle has to happen to repair anyones relationship with God or even begin one period. We can not change our hearts , only God can. If you have not already , I encourage you to read through these posts that I have posted. Do not give up and let Satan decieve you. You feel like your prayers are hitting the ceiling cause of the doubt you have within you. Do not let that doubt take root. I will also be praying for you Tim. As you can see, you are not alone. 🙂 I can put a smile cause I know God is working on you Tim and you are not beyond hope!
Sister Susan, you make me so happy. I’m meek. I don’t say this to cast a stone in front of you to make you stumble in pride. I genuinely love you. We have a father. This I believe. One day Susan
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/backslider.htm
Susan,
thanks for the reply. strange feeling to be sure of something beyond a shadow of a doubt and not be able to do anything about it.
Hey guys, I just wanted to say that I too have wrestled with this and by reading all the comments have both “triggered” the anxiety that I have dealt with for three years and been encouraged by you guys’ perseverance. William (and I’m sure others on here), let me tell you that I have struggled with the same things you are talking about. I was seeking a good sermon on repentance 3 years ago and stumbled on a John Piper sermon on this subject, had a panic attack from the condemnation and haven’t been the same since. I have obsessed over the things you’re talking about, like the motives for my repentance, how selfishness corrupts every motive I have, wondering if I truly love Jesus, and why these things are so hard. I have gotten to the point that it is hard to go to church and read the bible, as you often encounter scripture that is easy to interpret as condemning. I regularly wrestle with finding the strength to take that risk. And yes, I struggle against bitter feelings towards God that I simply must deny and not embrace. It is extremely painful. Nothing is worse than feeling comfort and relief and immediately thinking “oh this is just an emotional high and means nothing.” One of the many lies Satan tells is that you’re alone in this stuff, and you’re not.
I am with Susan (and am grateful) for her encouragement from the Word, and I just want to add some other things, just in case anyone is encouraged. I know what the passages in Hebrews say, but you have to look at the rest of the Word. Do you ever see Jesus turn anyone away that seek Him? I don’t. Yes some walk away from Him, but we can say with Peter “Where else can we go?” (Not the best motives there from Peter, btw!) God makes it very clear that if you seek Him you will find Him. And he who comes to Jesus, He will in no wise (literally “never, never”) cast out. It brings me some comfort just to write that. Romans 7 is also comforting to me as Paul — Paul! — talks about the war between his…
William,
One more thing. The verses from Proverbs you quote… Please find comfort in the fact you are not interpreting them correctly. Proverbs is not saying God laughs at you and mocks you. The speaking voice in Proverbs is wisdom. Solomon took the concept of knowledge and wisdom and personifies them as a teaching tool. When you mess up, wisdom laughs and mocks you, because you should have known better. Think about the practical application. We feel foolish all the time when we look back at mistakes in retrospect. It is not talking about God at all. God’s mercies are renewed every morning. I know it’s tough, but try to start believing that. Also, if you were reprobate, you would have no clue, you would be numb to your sins and lack of relationship with God. Your eyes would be scaled. You would not see God’s truth all around you. Now that you see Him everywhere, it’s not because he is mocking you, it’s because He wants you to see Him.
There is a prescription for forgiveness, restoration and healing in the bible. Particularly in Hebrews where he speaks on chastisement and how afterwards it yields righteousness…etc. If you follow those verses you’ll notice that it says to” make straight paths for your feet” and that which is out of joint or lamed…it should be healed. This can refer to any type of sickness acquired through the sinning cycles.
The healing isn’t always instantaneous…but will come Psalm 103.3.
Hosea chapter 6 talks about God restoring Ephraim of their sickness and restoring their salvation after they had committed whoredom and idolatry. They couldn’t get help from the doctors because God had afflicted them and only God could heal them. There is a prescription there also.
Also one must hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord. Lamentations 3:26
One of the things the Lord has dealt with me with pertaining healing after a cycle of sin is that we must not only cut off the external weeds (sin) but must dig out the root (sin) that is contributing to the problem and totally delete it from our lives. Realize what is has done to you and despise it.
Stumbling over and over is caused by only cutting off the external weeds through repentance. We go back and back to the sin because the root was still there and in time will sprout. Kill the roots.
As time goes on, so does my struggle. My thinking has become so convoluted. Although I would love to be able to believe, as others do about me, that I’m saved but just struggling, I feel like I’m continuing to slide downhill. I ask the Lord to save me at least once a day, try to convince myself I believe, but then don’t see any change. I’m shocked at my own lack of integrity, but realizing that it was always lacking– it’s just that my eyes are open to it now. It’s increasingly harder for me to be around believers who do exhibit Christlike integrity and the resulting joy. Although my wife is still sweet and loving toward me, it’s hard to see her be able to enjoy the fellowship of believers and worship the Lord from her heart as I look on longingly. My depression worsens as I watch others around me prospering in different ways, while I deteriorate. I battle coveteousness now more than ever before (although I realize they are reaping good things from what they’ve sown and I’m reaping the bad things that I’ve sown). This depresses me even more as I know the Scriptures say the coveteous will not inherit the kingdom. I continue to wither. I have a low-paying, entry-level job now– and battle bitterness about doing this at my age with my level of education. I try to accept this humbly and ask the Lord to help, but I can’t get past my pride. Even with this job I am performing poorly because I am so distracted and dissatisfied with it. I feel like my manhood has been zapped out of me as I continue to dwell on myself instead of sacrificially loving my family. Oh, how I wish I would have listened to the wisdom of the Bible when I still had time, but I feel like I hardened my neck after too many reproofs and now I am beyond remedy. I feel like all I’m doing is waiting for judgment day– and heaping up more condemnation while I’m waiting as I continue to fail to respond godly in thought, attitudes, actions, etc.. God, please help me.
Dear John Bartell, John Gardner, William, Maggie, Stephanie, and others here who are hurt and struggling in their salvation,
I had been running away from the LORD because there were certain sins in my life that I found too difficult to repent of, and knew that God was pushing me to change. I had been a strong Christian walking faithfully for almost 7 years and was free from pornography and many things in the world. There was something however that I think God was trying to push me to which was too hard and to which I refused. I eventually tried to push God away, finding His task too hard, just like Jonah. However in doing so, losing the true vine, I eventually fell into pornography and sinful ways of before, and felt completely unable to repent. I was completely free for almost 7 years. And in falling into pornography, I threw away my entire Christian testimony.
My sin was getting deeper and more dangerous every day to the point where I felt it’s all over and hopeless. I must’ve blasphemed in a horrific way such that there is no more repentance. I could not find myself to trust Jesus with all my heart. In my desperation I googled a topic on blasphemy of the Spirit and came to this forum and all your posts. Your experiences lifted me up temporarily because I knew I was not alone. My pain however continued to deepen more and more, I really don’t have a whole of time here to post the crazy ride the Lord put me through, although if you’re interested I am freely willing to share with you through email.
What I realized however, in the midst of my unwillingness to repent and my “hardened heart” is something fascinating about the gospel, which came to me through a sermon by Dr. Piper and as well just now a sermon called “Free will of the wind”.
The reason it feels impossible to repent is that it really is impossible. I think you are experiencing the ultimate reality of every human being. It is impossible to believe and repent, or come to salvation through trying really hard in self determination. Rather, the Holy Spirit freely enters into a person and grants them faith and repentance. Our repentance is first and foremost the Holy Spirit moving in us to do as He wants, so that we freely do exactly what we want because He changes our desires.
I realized that if my salvation is anything short of unconditional election and irresistable grace, then I am lost and hopeless.
I read all of your posts originally in my despair. Now I read it again having a little better understanding of the gospel. See, I thought I was a Calvinist for my first 6 years of Christian life, but I just understood now a little bit more of what grace really means. I think none of you are truly “hardened beyond repentance”, but God has allowed you to become so hopeless, so that you can really understand why the Gospel is the good news. It is completely free, and the election is unconditional.
All of your posts are very much slanted in one direction: what can I “do” in order to change myself. I can give some examples:
“I feel like I am reading my Bible in vain, trying to reproduce the conviction that I once felt.”
“I would give everything to read the bible one more time. to repent just one more time. to pray with all my heart one more time. To listen to one more sermon. PLEASE, if you are reading this and can still do those things, do so as if tonight was you last night one earth. With all the joy in the world. You will never understand how horrible this is, but it fully reminds me (constantly) how great the salvation that I took for granted was”
“Are you desiring God’s grace, true holiness in life, etc., but feeling no link with God.”
The worry in these posts is all of the flavor “do you feel this” or “can you do them”. Other posts and examples show the same thing: “how can I do these things” or “how can I myself with my willpower put my head knowledge into my heart”
My brothers and sisters, this is not what the Gospel is about, and it is certainly not good news. It is not good news for me at least, to know that my salvation hinges on what I do or feel. Rather, it is that, just as the wind is free and blows where it pleases and you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going, so also is everyone born of the Spirit. God completely saves and my repentance is the result of His Spirit freely choosing to work and move in me. It is all of grace.
I’m not the greatest at explaining the Gospel, but I could not help but to try one more time reaching out to you all, though this post comes several months late. Right now, my soul is not perfect in peace, but I understand the Gospel a little bit better and it is helping me a lot. I felt compelled to try and reach to you, those in my subject, and anyone else on this forum struggling, because I know exactly your pain. And indeed as John Bartell said, this is the worst state in existence to be in. It feels like you are predestined to hell. But God has opened your eyes to see spiritual reality, and you did not come to this forum for no reason. You came with a broken spirit, and that is exactly the sacrifice of God. I pray you may understand the Gospel of God’s grace more clearly, and He will sovereignly open your eyes to see why this gospel is truly good news – God freely gives, it is not your working or feeling.
Here are the two sermons that helped me. I really pray you would listen to the second one.
Christian, Know Whose You Are – http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/christian-know-whose-you-are
The Free Will of the Wind – http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/the-free-will-of-the-wind
I really pray you all may understand the free gospel of God’s grace, and that in your sufferings God may lead you to experience that in a deep personal way. I wanted to reach out to some of you here, and since I don’t know your information, I am leaving my email and phone numbers here in case you ever read this message and wanted to talk:
[email protected]
1-647-938-3772 (I live in Toronto, Canada)
Peter
Thank you for clearing this up – it was a question mark in my mind, until something brought it up again today, and I found your explanation. Also, I figured the NET Bible might have done a better job and discovered indeed it had.
My friends, Turn to Jesus. He will Forgive you. Jesus Loves you. Thank You Lord Jesus.
Hello. If anyone can talk to me I would appreciate it. I am completely alone, I committed this sin of Esau. I can’t seem to give up completely though- something seems to stop me. Sometimes when I tell Jesus how much I Love Him I think I can feel The Holy Spirit but then this always seems temporary. I can’t even get out of my house most of the time. Perhaps someone can answer this; God Bless you Always.
Ohhhhhhhhhh William
I couldn’t believe all the things you wrote !
It is everything I am experiencing !
….. so I won’t explain it, as you’ve done a great job of expressing the problem.
Every morning, the very first second of consciousness, my heart is stabbed with such fear that I want to die. But of course I am too afraid to die.
Depression and fear are overwhelming every day.
I cannot function, withdrawing from family and friends because I can’t think.
All I see in the bible is condemnation. I get afraid to even read it. And the most fearsome thoughts in my head are when I get angry/bitter with God for the way he does things.
Maybe stubbornness and pride are the sins that never seem to stop.
I KNOW what I should be thinking … and my mind acknowledges the truth … but, as you said …
HOW DOES ONE GET HEAD KNOWLEDGE INTO THE HEART?
HOW DO I TRULY BOW IN SUBMISSION? I want to, I try to, I pray for God to help me.
I pray every day for God to take my heart of stone and give me a heart of flesh.
Sometimes I just feel cold and hollow inside.
I am terrified that maybe I have a demon in me.
Have you had those thoughts?
Thank you Susan for the hope you given.
Every day I am tempted to give up … but I cannot renounce my God … but will this ever end?
I don’t know how long I can go on in this pain.
I don’t really think the passage about Esau needs to be very complicated – the verse speaks about how, when Esau was supposed to inherit the blessing, there was no repentance (it was Jacob who did not repent – Esau did regret.) In my opinion this speaks about when people on judgement day were SUPPOSED to inherit the blessing, because this is when the blessing is to be recieved, there is no more room for repentance even if you cry and beg for it – because God will not give us the birthright on judgement day, if we despised it in the earthly life. The Jews who apostatized did so as a way of life – they had decided not to follow Christ any more, the point of the author of Hebrews was to make it clear that if you leave Christ on earth, there is no way you will inherit the blessing on that last day. As Esau would not be able to receive the blessing when the day came for him to get it, we will not be able to receive the blessing of eternal life on judgement day if we rejected it THROUGH our entire earthly life.
This is really how John Bunyan also saw the verse – there are millions in hell like Esau wishing to take back the birthright they sold, but there is no more repentance. In this case from God’s side (as from Jacob’s side).
I would like to start out by saying I have read everyone of these post and I relate totally to the unbelievable possibility that we are either for saken by God , due not being one of the elect,but happen to know about it, or have directly sinned in the face of God quinching his Holy Spirit thus performing a form of blasphemy and have fallen away to the point of no repentance I started in Christian school at kindergarten all the way through high school in a Christian school, Church camps in the summer revival meetings we were there every time the door was open, I made a small profession of faith while being in awanas at about six years of age maybe seven, I held onto that for some years until I got in high school and realized that I wasn’t truly a changed person or I didn’t have the spirit, we had a tent revival in 1991 I was in the ninth grade, some of the seniors in high school really got say and their transformation was real! I thought it then because of the drastic change but I know it now because the same people are still serving God some full time but all of them with diligence. I remember envying them as I wanted to experience the true conversion as they had. I got up from my seat at the revival and walk around the church praying to God asking him to reveal himself to me and change me from the inside out, several years past and several sermons made me realize that I want to God as a fixture to my life not the center I spoke with several preachers and counselors about this matter and then answer was simple as just believe just hold on to the fact that you asked and you are repentant. That is where I got stuck because I wanted to be truthfully repentance wanted to be godly sorrow but really couldn’t muster it up. Several more years past got involved in my business very busy got married at four children I was in a church service in 2004 and I remember praying to God just convict me one more time just make me know I am one of your children I will repent I will turn away I will serve you I will make you Lord of my life. I went for ward that day swallowed my pride with a lot of people knowing who I was in the fact that by all means they thought I was saved. To put it in a nutshell it was like I really had no choice but to hold on to this experience and consider it a conversion I wanted so bad to not be changed from my efforts but be truly changed by God enlightening me and putting his spirit to walk with me. But evidently that had to be lipservice because I went right back to my ways and then grew worse and worse, I would feel the nudge of the Holy Spirit correcting me here and there and I wasn’t sure if it was my old upbringing or if it truly was God nudging me this way or that. My reasoning behind this was the fact that I would feel guilty for certain things that only to learn later we’re not really even biblical so it couldn’t have been God nudging me it was the portion of my upbringing that made me feel guilty. For instance I would be convicted about some legalistic thing like going to the movies even if the movie was not totally worldly, but the fact that I had been brought up to never go to the movies I felt somewhat convicted; however I would also feel convicted on lustful type activities and evil thoughts lying greed etc.. And with all that being said just to give a background is not really my issue at hand, after I could not seem to have a Trueheart change I started looking into the predestination gospel, by the way I had been raised Baptist and somewhat freewheel choose to be Saved or choose to reject, I let my mind go deep into the Presbyterian predestination type experience and felt that I had the answer that I evidently had not been chosen and was not one of the elect. I would sway between really concerned about it especially upon hearing someone like RC sproll or John MacArthur, and then totally unworried about it too consumed with all my earthly obligations children business etc. from a rather early age I was consumed with lustful thoughts and Financial security! So to keep following this pattern I slipped into a situation where I was confronted with doing things that were wrong and being convicted about it knowing that I was doing wrong I did it anyway, there would be times when I was so convicted about it and then did it anyway only to have this complete utter guilt kind of like Judas, or E Saul, I would cry tears ask for forgiveness beg make Vouls etc. etc.! However to be quite honest again it must have been lipservice because I only was doomed to repeat these actions over and over again lamenting the same way each time! I even got to the point one time where I basically told myself if I keep doing these things I’m in danger of grieving the Holy Spirit or blasphemy! There might be some time in between but nevertheless I repeat the actions and then repent or let me say say I’m sorry and in my mind I was repenting with all I had but it couldn’t have been real because here I go again. I don’t know how to convey this on written text but to put it quite frankly it was a hopeless feeling situation and I can only believe that if God would get into my soul and change me that I would not be so drawn to this, is the reason I concluded that I was either not saved or I was not one of the elect and did not know how to come to true repentance and God salvation! All of this is over a decade of Eb and flow sometimes real bad sometimes in the Scriptures hearing every preaching sermon I could get a hold of everything I could do to make me in my efforts feel like I was seeking God! Seeking you shall find right? I had to conclude that I simply was not able to! No man can come to the father unless the father draw him right? Here we are now 2014! Coming off a rather long stance of no communication with God or inclination towards him, I mean I’m too grounded to ever directly blaspheme him or say that he is not God and if you would ask me what I deny him or take a bullet to my head well I can imagine denying him because of the backgrounds and my upbringing, but live for him or have a true walk with him a personal relationship that I do not have, and Envy those who do! It’s quite peculiar because I have called out to God so many times to change me to make me know to help me if it is not an event but rather a process to do something that will be with me so that if I ever once knew that I was saved I could hold onto it and have some sort of peace.
To draw the conclusion that I am hopeless or not one of the elect is not something I want to hold onto but it’s difficult to overcome as I cry out and seek to no avail, I think of all the sermons and Bible reading and scripture memorization that I had done growing up that how do I even deserve the chances that I’ve been given let alone one more? I pray to you Lord Jesus send someone that can help with these questions and the mindset that has plagued me and others. I pray to you God that I haven’t committed the unpardonable sin I pray to you God that I did not blaspheme your Spirit!
To conclude this I only ask myself one question who could have had more opportunity then I and who could have Directly sinned while under conviction directly in the face of an Almighty God and think there wouldn’t be consequences??
Me too Aaron … this is the source of my greatest torments. I have fallen away from God many times in my life. Is this because I was never saved? Is it possible to search and want the love of God so badly, and still He turns His back on you?
Sometimes I think no one will ever answer this question because they might have to say that the answer is YES … you were not made to be one of the elect, and they are afraid to tell us that.
I don’t think Calvinists ever actually preach this from the pulpit, even if it is part of their faith and is included in their gospel of Christ. One should never be ashamed of the WHOLE gospel of Jesus Christ.
Right now, I have decided to hold on to Jesus word … with the utmost difficulty, I must say … that he who believes in Me shall never die. I am holding on to the fact that it must be Satan who is attacking me when I wake up every morning in terror. So far, this has not helped, but I am holding on for as long as I can, and trying my best to have faith despite being tested.
If you try this approach, let me know how it goes with you. I will let you know if I can ever find peace. The fear is destroying me body and soul.
My friends, every word of scripture is without reproach. If we Believe Jesus Died to Take Away our sin, we are Saved By The Precious Blood Of Christ. No one is good enough to get to Heaven on their own “goodness”. Scripture tells us that Christ Died to Save The World. ” For God so Loved The World that He Gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever shall Believe shall not perish but have everlasting Life.”My friends, We all deserve hell. Christ’s Precious Blood was spilled so we do not have to get what we so rightly deserve. This is The Word Of God, not my opinion.
Maggie and Aaron,
I can only say that my heart breaks reading your stories.
I am asking the Lord right now to bring you both to the place of peace, joy, and victory in Him that you are longing for.
He is a faithful God.
Maggie and Aaron,
(I have been trying to post this since yesterday afternoon. For some reason it has not gone through. So, if it ends up showing up multiple times in the end, I sincerely apologize.)
Here is the e mail address of a gentleman that is a good friend of mine. He would love to speak to either one of you about your questions and concerns. I have his permission to post his e mail address here.
He is a Christian man with a deep love for the Lord, a real compassion for people, and a sound knowledge of Scripture. He would count it a blessing to be of help to either of you.
Please feel free to contact him. He is hoping to hear from you I know.
Here is his address: gsmith at evangelministries dot org
(Note, I am writing out the e mail address in this way in case putting it here in the normal way is what is keeping this comment from posting.)
May the Lord bless both of you as you seek Him.
Thank you Emmanuel and Cherylu … your kindness and compassion means so much.
I used to belief that God loved the whole world … but now that is blown to bits.
According to what I’ve read about these beliefs, it doesn’t matter how much we try. That there are people who think they were saved, but did not really have saving faith because they keep going back to their sin.
And actually, we never DID have a choice right from the beginning.
I agree that our good works are obviously not going to get us to heaven, it would only be by Christ’s blood.
No one mentioned the fact that Esau was hated by God before the world began. He also never DID stand a chance, but was created for hell. So doesn’t that make the topic of what the the verse meant, moot.
Hi Maggie,
I was praying just a little bit ago, wondering what I should say to you and asking Him to show me. A passage of Scripture from John 6:37-40 came to my mind. I believe this is what the Lord wants you to see at this time.
Maggie, He never turns away someone that comes sincerely seeking Him. Never.
All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one that comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life: and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. ESV
My friends, Scripture teaches us that Jesus came into the world to Save the world, not condemn it. Scripture also teaches that Satan is the great condemner. Scripture teaches that Jesus is the True Messiah, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile. Christ wants to Save us, not condemn us. God Bless you Always my Dear Friends.
My friends, Jesus came to Save The world, not to condemn it. Scripture teaches that satan is the condemner. Scripture teaches that Christ came to give us Forgiveness while Satan came to give us condemnation. God Bless you Always my Dear Friends.
Maggie and or Aaron (or anybody else) please drop me a line. Micheal, the site owner knows I’m going to ask you this. This blog site is not staffed or intended to be what you’re asking for. I certainly don’t know everything, but I’ve been a Christian for 30 of my 50 years, have been through the mill myself and I’d like to help if possible. It would be my honor and blessing.
I’m the same man Cherylu was talking about above.
[email protected]
I hope to hear from you.
To Cherylu,Susan- Dear friends, Thank you for your kindness and concern. To Maggie, William, and others- My dear friends, repentance is to be sorry for your sins, and to ask and focus on Christ to ask for forgiveness. Then, to read Scripture and Pray. Today in Acts I read how Peter healed Dorcas from death. It was a wonderful story and a Blessing to Read. The Bible is filled with stories of Love like this, no condemnation. To Pray ask God to be close to you.We need to focus and have Faith In Christ. God Loves us so much. The Bible is a story of God’s Love for us. God Bless you my dear friends.
The same passage from Hebrews tormented John Bunyan and is described in his autobiography ‘Grace abounding to the chief of sinners’.
Esau may indeed have been seeking “repentance,” but the question is what, really, was he repenting of? It’s pretty obvious from the Genesis account, and everything subsequent about Esau and his descendant nation, that it had nothing to do with true godly repentance, but was bitter regret and resentment over the benefit his mistake had cost him.
In other words, it was driven by covetous desire, not love of God. That’s why the Word says literally no place was found for his “repentance.” Covetousness is out of place with God.
Maggie,
As a man (woman) thinketh in his heart, so is he. If you condemn yourself, you will be condemned. Your words condemn you.
“And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.” Mark 9:42.
Esau was hated after birth. Some 1500 years later after his death it was written in Malachi after his existence.
His heritage wasn’t hated until after his rebellion not before the foundations of the world.
You pervert your ways and your heart frets against God…Proverbs 19:3
No Esau could not. It is because God could see his heart. He knew from the beginning that Esau’s and his descendants were wicked. It was already decided before their birth(Jacob and Esau)
Obadayah 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
God Bless you all. Jesus is our Only Hope.
Jesus Loves you my friends. Christ Is Our Only Hope.