I have been in a conversation recently about doubt. Most specifically, the question that has risen is, “Can a true Christian doubt God at the most fundamental level.” A girl just wrote to me and said that she often envies Christians who don’t ever doubt. I told her that there is really no such thing. All people doubt!
Let me be clear (for this is something that many people would disagree with me on): I don’t think that belief should ever be conceived of as “black and white.” No, don’t go there. I am not talking about some form of relativism with regard to the nature of truth (i.e. there is no such thing as truth). What I am saying is that people vary with regard to the strength of their beliefs. And I am saying that this can vary from time to time. Belief can go up and down. In other words, belief is not something that you either have or you don’t.
I have already revealed my proposition (i.e. a truly born again believer can doubt). Let me define “fundamental level.” What I mean is that a Christian can doubt to such a degree that they even doubt the very existence of God. Yes, I am assuming that you have done the same. I have and sometimes still do.
Where did this come from? I had a different conversation today when a lady, whom no one would ever expect, came to me in confidence expressing her inner pain. “I have recently been doubting the existence of God,” she told me with much trepidation. I think that she was most surprised that I was not surprised (well, maybe a little).
A dictionary definition of a straight line is “the shortest path between two points.” The definition of doubt, at least from one perspective, is the line that bridges our faith and perfect faith. I am under the assumption that no one has perfect faith. If this is true, then everyone’s faith is lacking in some respect. This lack will take on different forms for different people and different circumstances. Sometimes it will show itself though particular habitual sins. Sometimes it is our own pride. Many times it takes the form of doubt at our most fundamental levels.
I don’t believe that this is wrong. Let me step back and rephrase. In a fallen world with fallen people—and Christians who are still battling the flesh—should we expect anything else? Do you really believe that once you become a Christian doubt is no longer a foe? So it is wrong only in the sense that living in a fallen world is wrong. It is bad to the degree that being a resurrection short of full redemption is bad.
These are the words of another who sent me an email today (it has been a day full of this issue for some reason): “I lived for so many years doubting as religion was crammed down my throat, and watched those very same people live in hatred and judgement…now I know that Christ is not about rituals, dogma, and I was so relieved to find out it was OK to question…I just didn’t know what I didn’t know.”
I can’t read too much into this, but my assumption is that many people, like the one above, are afraid to make a commitment because they have worked under the unfounded assumption that our faith must be perfect. J.P. Moreland once said if someone believes 51% and disbelieves 49%, they are a believer in that which holds the greatest percent.
Do Christians doubt? Of course we do. But this does not mean we don’t believe. You may be at 63%, 95%, or 51%, but know that your ability to rise above 50% is of the Lord. He is with you and will hold you tight. Doubt is a necessary by-product of imperfection. It is a necessary evil that accompanies us on our road to belief.
338 replies to "Can Christians Doubt?"
Vinod,
You’re welcome. 🙂
I’m not a good negotiator, I’m a good listener. And I’m good at detecting how one person is misunderstanding another, and at how to rephrase the idea to avoid it. Even when someone resists the clarification. As long as I can restrain my fleshly tendency to get snarky, anyway. 🙂
Have we fully beaten this dead horse?
We can only hope.
Great post CMP. I fully agree.
Horse is dead!
Ironically, I am rather surprised that there has not been more disagreement with this post than there has! There are many people out there who believe that belief is black and white.
“We also have to remember that the opposite of faith isn’t doubt, but knowledge.”
Can you support that Biblically? It seems to me to be wildly unlikely, at best.
-Wm
Wm yes biblically that statement is wrong. In all the verses Jesus spoke about doubt he was clear that opposite of faith was doubt.
“That is all the post is trying to do. Give perspective on doubt.”
Wow, what a great point (I’m referring to the rest of your comment — what I’m quoting hardly does it justice).
To use this same advice in a different context, if someone came to me grieving over some sin (as opposed to grieving over their doubt), I hope I’d check to make sure they knew about the Gospel, check to make sure they accepted it, and then point out that they were doing exactly what God prescribed!
Sin — and lack of faith — and doubt — are things to be grieved over. We should thank God for His Spirit convicting us of them, and ask for more conviction in appropriate ways, all while remembering that although we are saved through faith, we are not saved BY faith; the amount of our faith does not determine how much of us is saved. God does the saving.
Of course, I guess I should mention that some grieving is an attack of Satan, but that’s a distinct issue — and anyhow, the appropriate response is much the same.
Thanks for that comment, CMP.
-Wm
“Point of what Jesus said is if you don’t have faith you need to increase it.”
Where did Christ, or any other Biblical author, say anything about someone needing to increase their faith? Or even know how much of it they have? I don’t see that.
What I see is that having faith is good; not having it is bad. Having a lot is a gift of God; having a little means you can command mountains to move and they will (which doesn’t seem like a bad thing).
-Wm
Sorry, I should have responded to this.
Why do you assert that? The Bible doesn’t say that the disciples had more after hearing that! In fact, what Christ actually said was that having a tiny, tiny amount of faith was _enough_ to accomplish more than any human had ever expected to accomplish.
It _sounds_ like Christ was telling them that they didn’t need to ask for _more_ faith; they needed to ask for _faith_.
But this doesn’t say that faith increases; it says that it comes. The context is very clearly speaking of salvation, not of increasing one’s faithfulness status. And salvation is unmistakably an all-or-nothing thing.
-Wm
Wm Tanksley and Vinod,
I agree. Faith isn’t the opposite of knowledge. That comes from the “faith==blind faith” perspective, which I disagree with.
Tiffany was right that one day we won’t walk by faith, but I think that has more to do with, “The promises of God will have been delivered.”
Well put Jug.
(Can you believe that I am actually keeping up with the comments?! It has been months, but this has been interesting.)
What’s that? The comment thread feels like it’s gone on for months? 🙂
Hi Wm,
you said; Where did Christ, or any other Biblical author, say anything about someone needing to increase their faith? Or even know how much of it they have? I don’t see that.
Here is the answer.
I already gave reference for “little faith”
Jesus talks about great faith.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!
Well what Jesus called great faith in Mat 8:10 many of you call it false faith to gain worldly or temperory things.
Again Jesus says of great faith
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Jesus talks about no faith
Mark 4:40 But He said to them, “Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?”
So “no faith”, “little faith”, “great faith” every thing tells me that God has messure for faith. And he is rebuking his disciples time and again that where is their faith?
The mustard seed thing also is about quantity and some people have twisted it to mean differently.
Read
Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.”
Look at Word “faithless”
Then Read
Mat 17:20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
Do you see word “unbelief”?
So Jesus was saying that they have “no faith” they need to grow to “mustard seed” faith level.
Compare it with another mustard seed example. That tells you clearly that Jesus means quantity when He says mustard seed.
Mat 13:31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field,
Mat 13:32 “which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”
Mustard seed is small and when it grows it becomes greater than the herbs. Same way faith needs to grow. First it may be small then it needs to grow constantly.
I have found doubt to be a very positive thing.
If it was not for the doubts I had about mormonism I would have never questioned, never studied, never left, and never met the real Jesus.
Doubt is what we as Christians must encourage in non-believers in order to help them see the truth.
Doubt can also be a positive thing within the church. It causes or rather prevents one from becoming prideful in their beliefs. A little humility goes a long way in just having a conversation with somebody.
All this is not to say that doubt is not painful, but wrestling with doubt, or getting to the bottom of it, is great.–I hope.
Lisa:
I am sure you should have shaken your head in unbelief reading Vinod’s comment in response to your encouragment for him learn to start reading the Bible correctly.
He does not start want to get brainwashed like you! Man!!
CMP:
I imagine you were a little jarred initially, reading such stupid statements! You should be recovering now. 🙂
Jug:
You tried your best to inject some sense into our brother! Maybe some day it will sprout!
I can say, as someone who now knows a lot more than I did twenty years ago, that growth in knowledge is an effective antidote for doubt. However there are some things that cannot be known.
I can know, based on the historical record, that Jesus rose from the dead. I can see that the resurrection provides the confirmation, and fulfilment of much of the theological teachings that Jesus expounded on. However these things don’t provide proof that God is specifically concerned with me. As part of the human race, yes, as an individual… not so much.
To those disciples who knew Jesus face to face, doubt was still possible (as in the case of Thomas) how much more so we who live 2000 years removed from his face.
Well, this has been hashed out. I like posts 16, 45, and 116 best I think. I also liked the early one by Vance.
#16 has some very penetrating questions in my view. ones that I deal with when I doubt. In answer to ministering to others while doubting, it is really tough to find the right way. to be mostly convinced that by encouraging them to faith you are lying to them is a real burden. but you might be able to refer people to appropriate books (even though you would doubt the book if you read it); and even better, you may be able to envision the development of your faith through doubting. in doubting you are of course envisioning unbelief, but you’re also trying to envision a future faith for yourself. how do you envision that your faith will need to develop to deal with your doubt? can you cast that vision of faith for yourself and for those you’re ministering to?
that’s my attempt at advice. more importantly, my prayers are for you.
Is there some truth to the idea that people who don’t doubt are people who don’t think? It’s sometimes said that Christians, and true believers generally, believe blindly. People who just accept what they are taught are free from doubt. They could be nominal Christians who are born into a Christian family and just follow along. Jesus may have been talking about that when He said that the kingdom of heaven is populated with folks who are like children.
But for those who want to give reasons for their belief, doubt and skepticism seem to be necessary. If we follow Descartes, doubt is a form of thought that leads to evidence and that knowledge supports faith. Reasons are formulated because of doubts, and thus faith acquires conscious supports. Ironically, it may be that in trying to ‘reclaim the mind’ we are utilizing doubts or even raising doubts among Christians.
Hi rayner,
Doubt/disbelif in God is not positive, however you try to put it. Doubt in our own understanding of God is healthy. The more we check our ways and see something doesn’t seem to work the more we try to find answers for them.
The more we read the Word of God (I mean directly not through the brain washing methods Lisa suggested. Because God speaks through His Word and He doesn’t need a mediator.). The more it gets clearer.
Leslie,
I still believe the article, the way it is written, contradicts the Word of God and specially the Words of Jesus.
Jesus was never satisfied with little or no faith. He wanted His desciples to have great faith.
Throughout article in several places it contradicts Jesus’ position on faith. I just stopped because I found the intentions of author were ok and I didn’t want to create a mess on somebody’s blog.
Vinod:
I am so sorry for you that you’re so unable to grasp what CMP wanted us to understand!
Vinod,
Exactly what “brainwashing” methods to you think I am proposing? Brainwashing on how to read the Bible? Well, maybe its because God breathed out his word through the pens of men, 40 of them to be exact, and within the span of 1,500 years. So God has something in mind to convey to us as the little authors are recording under the inspiration of the Spirit in accordance with the literary style and customs of the time. There are folks who have gone before to help guide us how to navigate these 66 books to understand what God is trying to communicate by looking at how all the books fit together and what particular style they were written in. Things have to be understood in their proper context. Ripping passages out of context might be an insult to what God is trying to communicate, don’t you think?
See I am not so arrogant to think that I know everything and do benefit from the instruction of others. It’s called learning in community and teachers are needed. Maybe you know all there is to know but the rest of us need a little help. Humility before God demands such and I fear Him enough not to be too convinced of my own opinions. So Vinod if that is brainwashing to you then consider me brainwashed.
God Bless
Vinod,
Doubt and skepticism are not positive in themselves, but they are part of the process of establishing conscious faith. Of course, they may lead to unbelief as well. That’s a risk, and it’s the risk that Adam took. By conscious faith I mean faith that we give reasons in support of. The alternative is blind or subconscious faith.
Okay, Let’s look at these.
Okay, how is this supposed to be a command to measure or increase our level of faith? It’s not — it’s a praising observation that this man has great faith. It’s not telling us that this man built his faith within himself, and it’s not telling us that he knows he’s got great faith.
Exact same problem: Jesus isn’t saying that we should measure and/or increase our faith.
Critical point: this is saying that having NO faith is bad. It’s not talking about increasing or monitoring one’s own faith level.
Definitely. And Jesus can read that measure off; so it’s possible that we can do it as well.
Indeed. Zero faith. Same comments.
No he’s not; he’s saying that IF they had faith nothing would be impossible for them; but they don’t. He didn’t say they needed to grow faith.
Have you heard the term “eisegesis”? Look it up. In every case we’ve looked at, you bring your assumptions about faith into the text, forcing it to mean what you wanted it to mean, regardless of what it actually says.
Now, take a look at James. He points out that people who claim to measure their quantity of faith can be deceived if they attempt to measure by any means other than looking at their works. So if you want more faith (which seems like a good thing), you should worry not about your faith, but about your works. You should think of Phil 2:12-13 — the works you’re doing are God working within you, both to do them and even to WANT to do them. This fits and explains how Christ knew about the faith of those people.
And you know what? This means that increasing your faith doesn’t start by reducing your doubt. And knowing your faith doesn’t mean seeing how much you doubt…
FYI, in the last message, I got cut off right at the end of my last sentence. So no need to post a sequel. 🙂
-Wm
Vinod,
Paul points out that faith is a gift (1 Cor 12:7-11) which GOD gives as HE determines. So people have as much faith as God gives them. No more, no less. So if God does not completely fill them with faith, they have room for doubt.
Lisa,
40 people writing in span of 1500 years. Recording under the inspiration of Holy Spirit. Upto it is good.
I disagree with the statement “accordance with the literary style and customs”. Because God is not bound by style and customs. God has revealed so many things in the Word that the writers had absolutely no clue what they are writing.
Trouble starts with “the folks who have gone before to help guide us how to navigate these 66 books”
How many of them are really inspired by the Holy Spirit we do not know. We do not know if they are trying to discern the Word of God from their mind or with the help of Holy Spirit. Word of God are not discened by a natural man.
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Yes context is important and it is important that we need to understand what that verse really says. But most of the time context is used to change the meaning.
It is not arrogance to go back and check in the Word of God if what is being said aligns with the Word or not. You don’t believe without first checking what the Word of God says.
What I am doing is not ripping the verse out of context. If that was the case you could have given the context easily to correct me but you have not done that. You didn’t show me lexicons or anything that will tell that I am using verse out of context.
Now you see the effect of brainwashing on CMP’s article clearly.
I will give an example.
Mat 21:21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.
If you read the above verse without brain washing. You will conclude that you need faith 100% and doubt 0%. And believe me in all the bible you will not find a verse that contradicts 100% and 0% thing. But look at the article 51% faith and 49% unbelief. From where does it come? from brainwashing. And most people reading here have gone through same brainwashing that’s why they can’t see a difference.
Only Jugulum came close. Where he said
“There is something wrong with having imperfect faith, just like there’s something wrong with sinning as a Christian. Both are part of our struggle with our flesh.”
I hope I am clear enough.
Hi Wm,
Many of the verses that I quoted were to show that there is different messures of faith. So that was answer to your question: “Or even know how much of it they have?”
If you had not snipped out the last portion of my reply and had paid close attention to mustard seed parable about kingdom you could have understood that Jesus is talking about growth of faith like mustard seed it is small and when it grows it outgrows other trees.
Remember when Jesus said about mustard seed, Jesus was answering to question of “Increase our faith”. If that question was wrong Jesus would have corrected them by saying you don’t need to increase you need to have faith. Jesus didn’t do it because Jesus knew faith increases.
Luke 17:5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
But because you didn’t read it with context I think I need to give you specific verses that says that our faith grows and it needs to grow.
2 Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other,
2 Cor 8:7 But as you abound in everything; in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all diligence, and in your love for us; see that you abound in this grace also.
Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
Only other reference in the Bible about praying in Holy Spirit is about tongues. I don’t know if you believe that Jude 1:20 is inspired or not but this verse tells speaking in tongues increases faith.
1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1 Cor 14:4 “He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself ….”
Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
Hi Dave Z,
1 Cor 12:7-11 talks about gifts of Holy Spirit. Gift of faith mentioned there is entirely different thing. That gift is not given to every one. The faith I am talking about is the faith that we all have a responsibility to excercise in our lives.
Vinod:
I am sorry for being so candid, but your pride is so nauseating. Somebody said, pride is like bad breath; the person with it is unaware of it, but everybody around him/her knows!
For your information, God simply did not dictate to the Bible authors. He used the the human personality, his customs, his literary style to get His message across. And if that is the case, how does an average person today understand the context of the the text. Obviously he/she HAS to depend on those that has the time and effort to dig into the past. And of course, it takes humility to learn from others. And proud Christians, who want to go solo, miss out on the true truth. In the process, he/she becomes so deceived, that they are go past correction from his brethren in the Church. Sad!
So exactly, what is the difference between gift faith and “faith that we all have a responsibility to excercise in our lives.” Isn’t faith simply trusting, obeying and following God? If you say there are two different kinds of faith, (we can call them “gift faith” and “responsibility faith”) prove it clearly from scripture.
Leslie,
I see arrogance and pride on the you and Lisa. You guys are so proud of your seminary education that you can’t see the truth from the Word of God.
All I am trying to do is put Word of God over everything else and you guys are trying to put your doctrine, your theology, your seminary education above the Word of God.
Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.
If you meditate on the law of the Lord day and night. You will speak from the Word not from your own intellect.
Correct definition of humbleness is a person humbles himself before the Lord not before humans. You and I need to listen to what Lord is saying not what scholors are saying.
I am really surprised that there is no discussion on the Word of God. You didn’t give me anything from Word to tell me that I am wrong. Still you claim to be truthful.
If I am wrong show me from the Bible. If you can’t show then acknowledge that you are not following the Word of God. And if you are not following the Word you need to start doing it.
Hi Dave Z,
1 Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
“Profit of all” is the purpose of the gifts of Holy Spirit. So these gifts operate in a very large scale. As a believer our personal growth in the faith works for our own lives. When things are tough, when problems stand before us like mountains, this faith that has grown within us helps us to trust the Lord and act with faith.
When a person has Gift of faith that will help the community, church and a large group of people. For example Moses standing before the red sea and behind them was the Egyptian army. The whole community of Isralites needed a miracle. Unless the gift of faith operates Moses can’t pull a miracle. There is no way he can streach his rod toward sea and wait whole night for the sea to part into two.
If you are I are in that situation we will try to do something. We will try to find some swords, some weapons so that we can give some fight to Egyptian army.
BTW even the gift of faith grows. First Moses started at “no faith”. He refused to go and said I am no good. Then he went and tried and failed and was angry. Then he tried again. So he reached to the faith at the time of red sea in steps.
Yes Vinod, you are so right and we are so wrong. We should follow your example and paste Scripture everywhere to show how skilled we are in the Bible. If only we can attain to your level of Bible knowledge that perhaps our pride would vanish. Because clearly we are not in the Word, as you can so obviously and accurately surmise, revelling in our pride, arrogance, and education. Shame on us.
See we are but fallen sinners, without hope and reconciliation with God but for the sacrifice of Christ. By God’s grace, we are what we are and could not even come to Him except for the gift of faith that He extends as indicated in Ephesians 2:8. We are striving to understand Him and His word but recognize that we are also capable of getting things wrong. Forgive us for relying on teachers who can help us understand God’s word better. All cannot be so extremely knowledgeable like you Vinod.
Vinod, since we obviously don’t know anything about the Word, perhaps your time would be spent better with people as knowledgeable as yourself.
Hi Lisa,
Eph 2:8 doesn’t say that faith is gift instead it says Salvation is gift of God.
Forgive me if I am understanding it incorrectly because of my poor english. But that’s how I read it that the whole context is about Salvation not about faith.
Salvation being gift of God you still obtain it by acting on faith and asking for it. And the believing you do for Salvation you have to do it yourself, God is not going to do it for you.
If saving faith was a gift and you don’t have control on it and it didn’t come by the will and effort of a person then every single person on the planet earth has to be saved because God doesn’t do partiality and He should give it to every one. Our action controls our receiving of Salvation. That action comes by faith. So if we don’t have control on our faith then that action will not happen by our own will.
So you end up with liberal theology that every person on the planet is going to make it to heaven.
Vinod Isaac,
The human will is in bondage to sin. it is not the solution to the problem…it is the problem.
God has died for the entire world and forgiven the entire world (in spite of what Christians believe).
He desires that all would come to faith, but that does not happen.
Many reject Him.
When we come to faith, God gets ALL the credit. When we reject Him, we get ALL the blame.
You got a problem wit dat!? Talk to God about it when you get “up” there.
Hi Lisa,
We all are imperfect. That’s why we need to depend on the Word not in our own understanding.
I am open to correction if somebody shows me that I am wrong from the Word of God.
All the time I hear is to read something written by somebody.
Leslie sent me the following link
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5466
Here is what author of this site says about Words of Jesus “My Sheep Hear My Voice”
The word “voice,” then, can’t actually mean some kind of inner voice because a thing is never a metaphor of itself. It’s a picture of something else. Jesus must be referring, in a figure, to something else that the phrase “hear my voice” represents. What is it?
That another brainwashing. I have no clue why a person need to change and twist the words of Jesus. Word of God clearly says “hear”. And people have heard the voice of God throoughout Bible so why God would do differently? Why a person not willing to believe in the very Words of Jesus.
Below I give Bible verses where God literally spoke to people and this is after Jesus spoke that verse.
Acts 10:15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.”
Acts 8:26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert.
Acts 26:14 “And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
Hi steve,
You wrote: He desires that all would come to faith, but that does not happen.
According to Lisa God gives the saving faith so since God desires every on to come to faith and if God is not giving that faith who is at fault?
Fact is God doesn’t give saving faith. It is upto each individual to believe in the saving grace. God is not going to do it.
Vinod,
Once again, you’ve got it wrong.
Faith is a gift of God. St. Paul tells us that. Jesus tells us that in His conversation with Niccodemus.
Jesus also says in John, that “No one CAN come to Him, unless the Spirit of God draws him.”
The word ‘draw’ is the same word used other places in scripture as to ‘compel’ (force).
What was St. Paul doing when he made his decision for Jesus?
He was being compelled by God (knocked off his horse and blinded) while he was on his way to arrest and kill some Christians.
So much for OUR choosing to have faith.
Vinod, re #137, the issue is not what Jesus said but what did He mean by what He said. Look at the context of the chapter. What is Jesus talking about? Hearing voices? He is talking about those in his fold. This goes back to the Scripture that Steve cited that no one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draw Him. I could go on about that and also how you are not considering the context of Ephesians 2:8, but honestly I’d be wasting my breath.
What you call brainwashing is learning from others to maybe consider something we have not thought of before. It doesn’t mean they are right and it doesn’t mean you are right. It just means you are willing to consider. That does require us to have a teachable spirit and a recognition that maybe we don’t know all there is to know.
Peace out.
Hi steve,
I have not read any where that saving faith is a gift of God. If you are refering to Eph 2:8 read my reply to Lisa. If not let me know where it is in the Bible.
I don’t see it in conversation with Nicadomous either. I read John 3 again and can’t find what you are saying.
To the point of Holy Spirit draws a person I think you are trying to refer John 6:44,45.
John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
That happens when a person hears from the Word of God. Look at “taught by God”. When a person hears from the Word of God, Holy Spirit backs it up and convicts a person of his sins.
John 16:8 “And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9 “of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Faith and conviction put togather makes a person act and accept Jesus as his personal savior. That act of faith God doesn’t do.
Even after being knocked off of horse paul could have resisted to take the step of faith. Paul got saved not because he was knocked off but because he acted and believed in Jesus.
Vinod,
You and I have much different theologies.
You place man (and his will) at the center, and I prefer to let God do the willing in the salvation department.
I pray that one day, you might change your mind (by the grace of God).
Take care, and may God bless you.
– Steve
I know that there are different measures of faith, obviously. That’s why I asked THAT question. And that’s what you’ve failed to show; ALL of the verses you quoted show that there are different measures, but none of them ask or imply that we should measure our faith and make effort to increase it.
That’s unkind of you to say — my post as it stood was longer than this blog allows.
You didn’t cite the Kingdom Parable of the Mustard Seed; you cited the “faith as small as a mustard seed”. Those are two different quotations; in one the topic is the growth of the Kingdom (faith isn’t even mentioned), and in the other the topic is the amount of faith (and the point seems to be that not much is needed).
Why would he do that? Why wouldn’t he instead do what he actually did — tell them that even a small faith is enough to do miracles that they’d never seen before?
Seriously? Because I didn’t confuse the same two passages that you did?
Yes, since I asked for those passages, and you quoted my question and implied that you were trying to answer it, I think that would be appropriate.
In fact, this seems to credit God for increasing their faith. It definitely doesn’t credit them.
This is the only good one you’ve posted. I’ll address it separately.
Note the preposition “on” (in Greek, it’s the prefix ‘epi’). You’re building something else up _on_ your faith, not building _up_ your faith.
-Wm
Lisa,
Can you explain to me the context of Eph 2:8. I want to understand how you people read it that makes you believe that faith is gift of God.
Ok on John 10 let me will give you the context.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
How do you read it? “he goes before them” does it not tell you the daily walk with the Lord?
Does it not correspond to Ps 23? To me it clearly speaks about day to day walk with the Lord. It doesn’t represent position of a person before accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Then read the following verse
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
“and am known by My own” tells clearly that they are already saved and they know the Lord Jesus.
You and the author of that link are both trying to revert the meaning of verses I just quoted with the following verses.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
John 10:28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28 don’t revert/negate the meaning of John 10:3,4,14
Then you have to think what does it mean when Jesus said “And I give them eternal life”.
Keep in mind that these sheep already follow Jesus look at “and they follow Me”. How can the sheep that already follows Jesus be unsaved?
Do you have an answer?
Vinod,
I don’t know if you have posted on this blog before this thread or not. If you haven’t, you may not be aware that there are people from two very different schools of Christian thought that post here. Many are Calvinists and others are much more Arminian in their theology. If you are not aware of the differences of those two positions, you will find it hard to know where a lot of what has been said by others in the last comments on this thread is coming from.
Hi Wm,
Read those verses again that says “little faith” and “no faith”.
They do tell desciples like “Why are you fearful”, “Why did you doubt” etc. That tells me that they needed to work on those areas and raise to the level that they are no more fearful, they no more have doubts. If somebody scolds me with those words that’s what I will understand from it.
Mat 8:26 But He said to them, “Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?” Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
If teacher tells you why did you do your homework. That tells you that you needed to do your homework.
Then Jesus says they have little faith that tells the measure of their faith and if they have to reach at “no doubt” position that’s definately “increase”. So Jesus didn’t have to tell them word “increase” that is already understood in the passage.
Now to mustard seed.
Luke 17:6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.
Read those words “faith as mustard seed”. Specially the word “as”. And since Jesus already spoke the parable about mustard seed for the kingdom so to me it tells that here the same meaning applies.
It doesn’t mean that “small faith can do it”.
Look at Mat 17:20 where Jesus answering to question “why we could not cast out”. There again it says “faith as a mustard seed”.
Mat 17:20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
And before that Jesus uses word “unbelief”. So Jesus is talking about increase from “unbelief” to “as mustard seed”. And according to kingdom parable that will mean starting from small(little) it needs to outgrow.
Hi cheryl,
I know Many are Calvinists and others are much more Arminian in their theology. That’s why I was saying instead of putting one’s theology above the Word of God let’s put Word of God over them and examine.
BTW you can count me (and what I am saying) as third theology and you can name it “unknown”.
Vinod,
“BTW you can count me (and what I am saying) as third theology and you can name it “unknown”. ”
I believe that is the first thing you have gotten right.
Thanks steve,
I believe in brain storming the Word of God and believe it at it’s face value. When I read I want to read it unaltered. If I can’t corelate with it I believe that something is wrong in my side. So instead of trying to fit the Word of God to my way I try to fit myself to that perticular passage.
Every time it is I who need to change not the Word of God. If God has spoken something He has a purpose behind it so I can’t learn the Word of God by ignoring or altering it. I have to read more and find out if there is a related verse or passage anywhere else in the Bible. Bible interprets Bible so I believe we can find answer within the Bible.
Here’s the address I promised, followed a Biblical rebuttal of your basic point (based on actual text).
I am happy that you’ve finally found an apparent mention of striving to increase one’s own faith in the actual text. Unfortunately, this fails the test of immediate context; it’s not commanding them to “abound in faith”, it’s telling them that they already abound in faith, and asking that they also abound in kindness. Paul then goes on (in the next verse) to explain that even that isn’t to be read as a command, but as his eagerness to watch their kindness display itself by this opportunity to compare to the sacrificial giving of others.
Now, I’d like to show that your concept of knowing one’s own amount of faith is not only unbiblical, but actually goes against the clear Bible text. In James, we see that faith is not something we can simply look within and see, but something that shows itself by our works. If it were possible to strive to grow our faith by monitoring its level, James would then have to explain how we could examine the changes in our works to confirm the increase in faith level; but the only test he gives merely distinguishes between living faith and false claims of faith.
But let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that James was actually merely saying that introspection is the wrong tool to measure one’s own faith level, and that therefore he was trying to say that looking at one’s own works was the right means. You would want to say that one could be confident in one’s level of faith by observing one’s own works, and confident in one’s improvement by watching one’s works improve.
But this interpretation runs into all kinds of problems elsewhere in the Bible. 1 John says that we can’t trust our own conscience to not condemn us in spite of our righteousness; and John is actually talking about knowing whether we are saved, which is directly on topic when discussing faith. Paul measures his works before his salvation, and finds them in many ways to be better — “perfect in the law”, “more zealous” — than his works after his salvation.
Hence we have a contradiction, which means that my assumption ad argumentum that James might be prescribing self-inspection of works to judge a level of faith is incorrect. Thus James must not be building a test that judges the level of faith, which is what I intended to show.
No, the faith that we are saved by is not something that we increase or decrease; indeed, this fits the fact that salvation itself is by nature all-or-nothing. Saving faith is the gift of God; saving faith will inevitably show itself in the works that God created us to do, while an absence of faith will show itself in rebellion against God.
-Wm