Join Michael Patton, Tim Kimberley, J.J Seid and Sam Storms as they discuss whether or not baptism can save you.
Join Michael Patton, Tim Kimberley, J.J Seid and Sam Storms as they discuss whether or not baptism can save you.
7 replies to "Does Baptism Save You?"
Gentlemen,
One of you, I believe Tim or JJ, made a completely absurd comment during this discussion. The comment was made during the discussion of the frequency, or lack thereof, of the verses explicitly mentioning baptism, compared to the frequency of the verses mentioning faith, trust, belief, etc.
I paraphrase of course: “if you will just take your Bible home and *read* the Book of Acts, and *listen* to the sermons, *read* the Pauline epistles, and *listen* to what he says about salvation, you don’t have to be a Bible scholar to see that Baptism just isn’t there…”
Oh, that’s the problem! In all these hundreds and hundreds of years, no one has actually paid any attention to what those books actually say! If we just read our Bibles at home it would be so obvious!
What in the world?
You are dismissing, from a coffee house, the conclusions of persecuted Christians and the consensus of Christianity for two thousand years! And insulting the intelligence and/or motives of countless Christian scholars and saints! Extremely insulting, and ineffective at gaining any additional respect for your own opinions.
And by the way, is frequency of explicit mention in Scripture the rule for discerning truth? I would be interested in hearing your tally of how many times Scripture Alone is mentioned!
Good grief.
Irene,
“You are dismissing, from a coffee house, the conclusions of persecuted Christians and the consensus of Christianity for two thousand years!”
Let’s see what some of the early church fathers said:
Clement of Rome (?-110), “And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter 32).
Polycarp (69-150), “by grace ye are saved, not of works,’ but by the will of God through Jesus Christ . . . If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, ‘we shall also reign together with Him,’ provided only we believe . . . ” (Epistle to the Philippians, 1, 5, 8)
Marius Victorinus (280-?): Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ. For the patriarchs prefigured and foretold that man would be justified from faith. Therefore, just as it was reckoned as righteousness to Abraham that he had faith, so we too, if we have faith in Christ and every mystery of his, will be sons of Abraham. Our whole life will be accounted as righteous. Epistle to the Galatians, 1.3.7. Mark J. Edwards, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 39).
“And insulting the intelligence and/or motives of countless Christian scholars and saints!”
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon
“Extremely insulting, and ineffective at gaining any additional respect for your own opinions.”
It is shown that there is no such consensus at all over whether baptism saves. Where do you even find the conclusions of persecuted Christians? If all you have are bare assertions, I would find it difficult to accord any respect to your own opinions.
What do you think of the Nicene Creed’s statement about “one baptism for the remission of sins”?
Even the Catholic Church has multiple loopholes that allow someone to go to heaven without being physically baptized. So there’s some sophistication of thinking about conditions under which someone wouldn’t be baptized.
Mr. Renn,
I suppose they would believe the Nicene fathers need to go home and read Scripture…maybe listen to a few podcasts…
Dante,
Your comment must have been stuck in moderation or something; it just got to my inbox.
church fathers–
The quotes you provided seem perfectly compatible with the doctrines of the churches that profess the necessity of baptism. If, on the other hand, one sees baptism as obedience to an ordinance, as most evangelicals seem to, then these quotes would be in conflict with the necessity of baptism. However, Catholics, and many others, know that baptism is not a “good work”, but an infusion of undeserved grace (infant baptism being a perfect example of that).
bandwagon–
Virtually all Christians up to the Reformation era, and still the majority of Christians in the world today, hold to the necessity of baptism. If you want to argue that, I’ll just refer you to Michael, who said as much during this discussion.
So, is following the historic consensus of Christianity jumping on the bandwagon? Only if you believe the whole church could apostatize. I don’t. In any case, Credo House and Michael seem to be proponents of the Canon of St Vincent of Lerins. It says something like, ” true doctrine is what has been always believed everywhere, by everyone”. I’m sure you’ve read Michael using it to help determine what is “essential”. I don’t understand why he is comfortable dropping it here…
persecuted Christians–
The Nicene fathers, who were not far removed from Roman persecution, wrote “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”, as Aaron Renn noted.
So yes, JJ (or Tim, I couldn’t tell) was dismissing, from a coffee house, the consensus of Christianity. He said what is really needed is for people to read their Bibles, (to see how infrequently baptism is mentioned), implying that up to modern times, people never really had.
I wonder if Romans 6 specifically has in mind the involvement of water, or perhaps not. Hebrews speaks of “baptisms” in the plural, and we know of at least one other Scriptural baptism where no water is involved, and that is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In fact, even John the Baptist said that although he baptized with water, one would come later who would baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost. I think we err by reading every instance of the word “baptism” in Scripture as though water had to be involved. We cannot be saved without a full identification with Christ, in Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. We must die to self in order to receive new life from on high. Being born again, immersed in Christ’s nature, being made one in covenant with him, … this all seems to be a form of immersion which could be referred to as baptism.
It would be quite ironic, if we were to take the “one baptism” idea, and turn it into a cause for division.
Ephesians 4: 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
I Corinthians 1 is all about not having divisions among us, that it doesn’t matter who did the baptizing (or how), but that we are all one body. It is precisely because all Christians through faith are said to have the same baptism that we should NOT be quarrelling among ourselves over baptism:
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[b]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Colossians 2:12 says that it happens through faith: having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
I Peter 3:21; and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,