“The Nephilim Have Been Found” or Yet Another Example of Really Bad Apologetics

It’s specifically debunked here:- http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp

The thing is, it’s so very easy now to do a little research before forwarding an email like this, or Facebooking it, but so many people would rather try and reinforce their faith through useless “facts” like this than check them out first.

Then there’s the double-whammy when they forward it to someone who’s not a Christian as “proof” and it’s debunked by them.

I used to gently point friends and family to Snopes, and suggest that they look things up before forwarding them on.

I gave up after being roundly abused for “trying to destroy (their) faith” after I tried to *gently* make them aware that the email they’d sent around wasn’t true.

Now I just hit delete.

So…are you saying I can’t believe everything in my email? Excuse me while I cancel my check to the Nigerian prince.

Definately Photoshopped. The top two are poor examples. The shadows are not congruent, but fall in direction impossible in a real non-manipulated pic. Anyone who knows what to look for can spot those two. The third one, however, is well done. The owner of that pic took care to ensure the shadows fell congruently. There is a thin horizontal line about halfway down where the texture of the ground is not congruent. The shadow on the right side of the pit is perfectly straight-too straight to have likely occurred in a natural photo.

The photographer split he photograph into two halves, and the bottom half into two halves. He tossed the bottom left quadrant and replaced it an enlarged pic of the area in the bottom left quadrant which would include the skull and layered it in.

The folks of Worth1000 are simply having fun, and do not intend for their work to be taken as evidence of anything other than a demonstration of how convincingly pics can be manipulated. Sadly though, the photoshopping of evidence is becoming rampant in cultural debates involving religious and political topics. Christians do not need to photoshop pics to prove anything. God has hardwired into people logical evidences that validate the philosophical context(i.e world-view) of the Bible, and the evidence for the resurrection specifically proves Christianity true.

People are strange. There are many who take the National Enquirer quite seriously after all. I’ve never understood that. I’d be interested in readership statistics of that magazine. I wonder if there’s a strong ‘Christian’ correlation or not. My experience is that goofball tendencies tend to transcend religious distinctions.

CMP,

You said: We believe what we profess and we are quick to accept anything and everything that confirms some aspect of our faith. I am the same way.

Your honesty is refreshing. Now if you would apply the same level of skepticism to the NT reports that you do to these pictures, you would understand why I have come to reject evangelical Christianity.

Ken-

“Now if you would apply the same level of skepticism to the NT reports that you do to these pictures, you would understand why I have come to reject evangelical Christianity.”

Keep in mind how CMP concluded his post:

“We have enough evidence for our faith to keep up from resorting to such things.”

Of course they’re fake. Everyone knows the Nephilim/Anakim and their descendants had six digits on each hand. 2 Samuel 21:20 🙂

Plus, they had sharp teeth (no, wait, that was from Jack the Giant Killer).

(Those photos look like bad green screen shots like several scenes in Peter Jackson’s KING KONG – especially apparent in the Blu-Ray edition.)

[…] Michael Patton blogs today about another way not to do apologetics, in this case responding to an e-mail he received claiming that giants had been found in Greece.  The e-mail associated these giants with the Nephilim of scripture and claimed that the photos proved that the Bible was accurate. […]

Rick,

Keep in mind that the sentence you quoted, the one CMP ended with, is a contradiction in terms.

In fact, I disagree with Ken’s comment about CMP’s refreshing honesty only in that I find CMP to be one of the most dishonest theologians around. And it is sentences like that one that continue to provide “evidence” of my assertion of such.

Look, man, if you won’t believe your own eyes…

Michael,

What do you think of these photos of giants? (Click the links on the left.) http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html

As I see it gulability is an enevitable result when the church adopts the philosophy that you can not tell someone they are wrong or for that matter when Heretics are tolerated and given an open platform (in contradiction to the scriptures) to voice their heresy as if it is on equal footing with the truth.

When for the most part the church doesn’t teach, preach or instruct their congregations with the truth of the scriptures then clouds are formed that are blown here and there by every wind of doctorine.

As I see it gulability (sic) is an enevitable (sic) result when the church adopts the philosophy that you can not tell someone they are wrong or for that matter when Heretics are tolerated and given an open platform (in contradiction to the scriptures) to voice their heresy as if it is on equal footing with the truth.

Nothing new, and not related to too much toleration, for as far back as Celsus Christians were accused of being stupid and gullible. From The Christians as the Romans Saw Them by Robert L. Wilken:

http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/xtian1.html

Celsus: A Conservative Intellectual

1) “Celsus . . . complained that Christians sought out uneducated and gullible people because they were unable to give reason or arguments for their beliefs.” page 77

2) “Celsus knew that Christian scriptures provided justification for eschewing appeals to reason and argumentation. “Some [Christians] ,” says Celsus, “do no even want to give or to receive a reason for what they believe, and use such expressions as “do not ask questions; just believe,’ and “Your faith will save you.’ Others quote the apostle Paul. ‘The wisdom in the world is evil and foolishness a good thing.’ ” (1 Cor 1: 25-26; c. Cels. 1.9)”

3) “Just because many in the churches were uneducated and illiterate, Christians had the reputation of being gullible and credulous. . . Christians were an easy target for the racketeers of the Roman Empire.” page 98

I’ve found that when I debunk an email with a Snopes link, it doesn’t teach people to think critically about every email that comes through their inbox. It just teaches them not to include me on distribution, but still send everything to everybody else. Funny how that works.

Recently someone checked out what authority Snopes has to be the Internet fact-checker, and it turns out that Snopes itself may be a candidate for one of its own “This may be bogus” claims.

Caveat emptor.

“The Nephilim Have Been Found” or Yet Another Example of Really Bad Apologetics

The Missing Link Has Been Found or Yet Another Example of Really Bad Hoaxes to Prop up Evolution.

Just sad, reminds me of the 666 madness that props up every couple of years, I sat through a sermon one time where the mark of the beast was an embedded radio transmitter tracked by satellites.

Now if you don’t mind, I have to find some tinfoil and make a hat…

-Paul-

This case also illustrates how quickly a legend can develop and how hard it is to convince everyone that it really is a legend. Other examples include the legend about Madalyn Murray O’Hair trying to ban all religious broadcasts and the legend about scientists digging all the way to hell.

These pictures weren’t sent to you on April 1st, were they?

Ken,
These aren’t legends – they are lies, pure fabrication. They weren’t a story that developed and changed slowly over time with the addition of new material, they were stories made up by someone for political purposes with full knowledge that they were false and then passed around to as many gullible people as they knew. If the authors of these stories were tortured and threatened with death they’d recant.

The Nephilim pictures are a deliberate fraud but the two examples (and I could mention many more) have a kernel of historical truth to them. They got exaggerated though in the re-telling. And as far as recanting, first, what evidence do you have that eyewitnesses of the resurrection refused to recant under threat of death, and two, these people might not recant if they thought they would go to hell if they did.

Ken,
1. I don’t think there is much historical debate that many of the Apostles were imprisoned, tortured, and executed for their beliefs (of course some we are more certain about then others).
2. Given that the authorities were all to eager to stamp out what they considered a abominable cult I would expect someone to claim that the Apostle’s had recanted. Yet there just isn’t this evidence. All the evidence we have seems to indicate they went to their deaths believing.
3. As for fear of going to hell for recanting this only shows that the they actually believed what they claimed. If Jesus wasn’t really the Son of God then who is going to be worried about going to hell for denying this??

As to the two examples you gave. Whatever shred of historical truth there was to these stories (which is very small) you can’t deny that someone deliberately and knowingly embellished these stories for political gain knowing full well that what they were telling was a falsehood.

I think this problem goes far beyond Christianity. The popularity of the Zeitgeist film is proof that atheists are just as gullible and intellectually desperate as the next man.

The word “Nephilim” appears twice in Scripture. The first reference refers to them as men. The second reference is part of a false report regarding the inhabitants of Hebron. There is no reliable reference to suggest that they were giants. Goliath and his brother appear many centuries after any mention of the Nephilim. That Goliath and his brother were giants is certain to the believer and entirely possible to the non-believer since gigantisms still exist today.

1.Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

2.Numbers 13:33
We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.”

In Christ,
Carter

Carter,

What do you think it means when it says the people “seemed like grasshoppers” to the Nephilim? I have always thought that meant the Nephilim were giants–they were so much larger then normal people that they “seemed like grasshoppers.”

Michael T,

Given that the authorities were all to eager to stamp out what they considered a abominable cult I would expect someone to claim that the Apostle’s had recanted.

Really? History is written or rewritten by the victor. Given that the literal victor was a militant Christianity, I wouldn’t expect to see anything but glowing martyrdom stories and legends of swords rising from pools of water in virgin hands to crown kings for Christ in pagan lands. And given that most evangelical Christians seem to have minimal educations (or “DVD Theologies”) and are under the impression that there was some kind of singular Christianity out of the first century that held to a unified and “pure” Christian belief structure, it’s little wonder that you will make wild blanket claims about legendary figures in Church history to bolster your particular views.

All the evidence we have seems to indicate they went to their deaths believing.

And there is a great deal of evidence that psychopaths go to their deaths believing all kinds of sick and twisted things too, but if you honestly think that ‘belief in death’ is some kind of indicator of the truth, then you really are some kind of messed up.

As to the two examples you gave. Whatever shred of historical truth there was to these stories (which is very small) you can’t deny that someone deliberately and knowingly embellished these stories for political gain knowing full well that what they were telling was a falsehood.

The same could be said of the NT accounts.

The Fool #27-

“And given that most evangelical Christians seem to have minimal educations (or “DVD Theologies”) and are under the impression that there was some kind of singular Christianity out of the first century that held to a unified and “pure” Christian belief structure, it’s little wonder that you will make wild blanket claims about legendary figures in Church history to bolster your particular views.”

You are right in that too many evangelicals have not really looked into the early church. Many, such as CMP, have done a good job of encouraging people to look at that history.

Now, when people do look into that history, they will may find it somewhat different than they expected, but also will find a rich, strong, early core of beliefs. In short, their faith will be strengthened.

EricW,

Sorry I missed your point. I am not referring to the unsaved world’s opinion of the church. You don’t have to convince me that the lost world sees Christians as foolish, close minded, out of touch and any other charge they can lay at our feet.

They hated the Lord first and they will hate us. The truth of the Gospel is foolishness to some and offensive to others.

What I am talking about is Christians failing to obey the command of scripture to test every spirit and see if it is from God. Instead if you paint a varnish of Christianity on it and use such keywords as “love” or “miraculous” or even “God” then gullible Christians bite on it hook line and sinker. They put their faith in a chain email that will bring a miraculous healing or money if they send it to 10 people that they care about.

There are people who call themselves preachers out there and they teach insidious heresy, write books and make millions of dollars. These are people that the Apostle Paul said should be accursed and not even give the time of day. And what does the church do? We put them on the list of people we want to come preach an uplifting sermon at our church.

“There are people who call themselves preachers out there and they teach insidious heresy, write books and make millions of dollars. These are people that the Apostle Paul said should be accursed and not even give the time of day. And what does the church do? We put them on the list of people we want to come preach an uplifting sermon at our church.”

Alternative A: Churches and so-called churches can do what they and their pastors and leaders and members want.

Alternative B: Some person or group of persons has the authority and power to decide what any and all churches anywhere and everywhere can teach and do and say, as well as whom they can invite to preach and teach.

I’ll take… Alternative A.

I understand this post from a personal level. I once believed the claims of Ron Wyatt! Please forgive me!

🙂

From time to time the ancient Greeks would find dinosaur bones, and use that as evidence that Cyclops’s existed. Often the skulls would be fractured so it looked as if the creature had had a single eye.

The Fool,
The militant Christianity you describe did not arise until Constantine and the Roman Empire usurped Christianity starting with the Edict of Milan in 313 and culminating with it being made the official religion in 391. Despite this many of the writings of Christians and heretics alike prior to these dates survive to the present day. As a result I see no reason to think that accounts of the Apostle’s recanting wouldn’t survive as well. The writings of many of the Roman historians and philosophers writing against Christianity survived.

I am also well aware that the Early Christians disagreed on many issues and how exactly to view things (the reason there are only five or so belief I hold as necessary for salvation), yet in the vast majority of cases the central core of Christian belief is there. For example the divinity of Christ was universally believed by virtually all Christian writers prior to the Council of Nicea, there was however disagreement on the exact way to conceive of the Trinity (i.e. Origen saw it as hierarchical in nature while the traditional view is that it is without hierarchy).

“And there is a great deal of evidence that psychopaths go to their deaths believing all kinds of sick and twisted things too”

This is a very good historical theory about the nature of the Apostles. Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back this up? Is there any evidence that the Apostles had these kind of madman tendencies? Ultimately this is a historical theory without any evidence whatsoever to support it.

The Fool,

“The same could be said of the NT accounts.”
This is the fabrication theory. Again a historical theory without any evidence to back it up. There is nothing to indicate that the Apostle’s had the type of depraved character to blatantly lie about this and then die for that lie short of simply assuming a priori that anyone who claims to have witnessed a resurrection is lying and if they die for that lie must be a lunatic.

It should also be noted that the vast majority of scholars Christian and Secular alike agree that Jesus was crucified and buried, that the tomb was found empty, that the Disciples at least thought they witnessed Jesus postmortem, and that the Disciples believed that Jesus had been resurrected. Where Christian scholars and Secular scholars disagree is largely on what inferences should be made from these facts and this is where I would submit ones biases and presuppositions become the deciding factor (for both sides), not the facts.

EricW #16: citation please? Who has said this and what evidence did they produce? What did the people at Snopes say?

Cherylu asked “What do you think it means when it says the people “seemed like grasshoppers” to the Nephilim? I have always thought that meant the Nephilim were giants–they were so much larger then normal people that they “seemed like grasshoppers.””

Well you are right as to what it means but it is part of the false report which was being given.

In Christ,
Carter

Carter,

So you think that they made up the whole story about the giants, that was not in any way true? I’ve never considered that part of the false report myself.

Chrissl:

Here’s are a couple stories re: Snopes:

wnd.com/index.php?pageId=91196

overlawyered.com/2009/02/snopes-and-cpsia/

You can find more via Google.

I am walking on water. My neighbor raised from the dead the other day. Fellow christians make things appear by miracle all time time. My mother prayed, and was healed.

I know those bones are real evidence!

Why don’t you have faith. If you did, you’d get miracles like the rest of us.

“The prophet is a fool. The man of the spirit is made” (Hosea) The Bible itself warned about false things throughout religion; even Christianity. But our “Christians” will not listen to the Bible; or God.

This stuff only succeeds in making people of faith look like fools.

Here’s another example of a horrible apologetic…

http://messianicdefenseleague.com/patriarchs.aspx

I first heard this at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa from Chuck Missler decades ago. When I attempted to check the names against the words in a Strong’s concordance (pre computer days) I couldn’t come to the conclusion that Dr. Missler was offering.

Sadly, just a couple years ago a well meaning new pastor at another Calvary rattled off this same apologetic, which was my cue to leave and find another church, unapologetically.

Eric,

I think you are correct in your suspicions of the infallibility of Snopes. The husband wife team appear to want to tell the truth about most things but after reading some of their responses, I get the sneakin’ suspicion that they may be a couple of skeptics that may be atheists that Christians unknowingly cite as the truth bearers of the internet.

These photos are cool.Wouldn’t we all like to see evidance like that.Well i see the photos of my grand babies.hoowee!now there is evidence of God.Go look in the mirror!God gave us evidences, they are all around us.Romans 1:20 The things that are made and the things created. God says they are without excuse if they don’t believe. And will ultimately answer for it accordingly. Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for the EVIDENCE of things not seen.Hebrews 11:1.To those seeking a sign. John 20:29 Jesus said,Blessed is he that has not seen and yet believes.

Most people are too smart or mistrusting to be tricked into faith.Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for the EVIDENCE of things not seen.Hebrews 11:1.Blessed are they that have not seen yet believe. John 20:29. God proves His exsistance by the things that are made or created. Romans 1:20 He says we are without excuse!take a deep beath,go look in the mirror.

All I can say is… credo quia absurdum.

Michael,

I am more concerned about Christians who HIDE PORTIONS of SCRIPTURE because they are embarrassed and/or have no FAITH that those certain portions of Scripture are True.

God saw fit, by and through the Holy Spirit to RECORD THESE Giant/Nephilim Events. Therefore, these passages of Scripture were placed their for our BENEFIT and EDIFICATION.

I was saved for 15-years and doing Missionary Work in Haiti for 10-years before I was made aware of this Giant/Nephilim matter. My FAITH in God is not a result of finding this passage of Scripture, but it surely CONFIRMED the TRUTH and ACCURACY of GOD’s WORD in my life and should do so in yours!

My Children are well aware of the Nephilim/Giants. One Daughter is 28, another is 17 and they BOTH did not RUN FROM THE FAITH because they were taught about this Biblical Truth…..I have a 7-6 and 3 year old who also know of these Giant/Nephilim and see their Faith growing and NOT INTERUPPTED as a result of being taught such truth……your Skeptiism is unwarranted and founded on False Fears…..

Surely unbelievers would mock this, and after extensive research, THEY USED TO POINT THIS OUT AS FAIRY-TALES and as PROOF that the BIBLE was/is a MYTH….that is……UNTIL they unearthed the 1st Giant, and then Another, then another and etc…..Today, the MEDIA, the EVOLUTIONIST and ATHEIST NEVER touch or BRING up this Subject when Debating for/against the Bible and its claim….Do you not find this strange?

Psalm 118:8

Missionary,

Michael is not questioning the veracity of scripture but of the supposed extra-biblical evidence to support it. His point is that we shouldn’t be so gullible regarding every piece of evidence that pops up. It does nothing to further defense of the faith.

I agree with Lisa. ‘Evidence” physical wise, at least, cannot determine our basis for faith, since scripture says “Faith is the evidence of things NOT seen.” If we are insisting on something otherwise to ‘prove’ our faith then it is not real faith, but faith based upon peusdo-science, which is not the same thing at all.

[…] Michael Patton blogs today about another way not to do apologetics, in this case responding to an e-mail he received claiming that giants had been found in Greece.  The e-mail associated these giants with the Nephilim of scripture and claimed that the photos proved that the Bible was accurate. […]

I am a daughter of GOD, and my nationality is Maori, and I live in New Zealand.Even if this may be a hoax, you and I know the truth, that they existed and became a race of people through the sons of GOD because they had sexual relations with the daughters of humanbeings,as it is written so to do we beleive, because GOD IS TRUTH. Here in New Zealand we had ancestors who were of a great height. His name was TAMA TE KAPUA . whom was over 11 foot tall and another associate was 15ft plus. I am happy to say that I a direct descendant through this generation. SO it is fair to say that all though man searches out the word of GOD to try and find the physical evidence of the Nephilim generation, who are we to say their bones are not yet discovered, because after all it is the flesh that rots away and not the bones. So I would like to say that even if they have discovered the bones of this generation, what really matters is doing the works of our Father here on earth as it is in Heaven..His will be done not ours.. And who are we to say that this is a hoax.. God can do what ever He wants, to perfrom His word. He performed a miracle through Ezekiel by bringing the valley of dry bones back to life…A great mighty army..by forming every part and bringing the body back together again… BLESS YOU…