I have heard this since I was a very young Christian. It seemed somewhat reasonable as it was explained to me by pastors in sermons and Christians as they explained the seriousness of sin. The claim goes something like this: All sin is so bad that even the smallest of sins deserves eternal punishment in hell. It does not matter if it is losing your temper at a lousy referee, not sharing your Icee, or speeding 36 in a 35, every sin deserves eternal torment in Hell. Why? Although it may seem unreasonable to us (as depraved as we are), it is fitting for a perfectly holy God who cannot be in the site of sin, no matter how insignificant this sin might seem to us. In fact, there is no sin that is insignificant to God. Because He is infinitely holy, beyond our understanding, all sin is infinitely offensive to Him. Therefore the punishment for all sin must be infinite.
I have to be very careful here since I am going against what has become the popular evangelical way to present the Gospel, but I don’t buy it. Not only do I not buy it, I think this, like the idea that all sins are equal in the site of God, is damaging to the character of God, the significance of the cross, and I believe it trivializes sin. Let me explain.
First off, I don’t know of a passage in the Bible that would suggest such a radical view. It would seem that people make this conclusion this way:
Premise 1: Hell is eternal
Premise 2: All people that go there are there for eternity
Premise 3: Not all people have committed the number or the same degree of sins
Conclusion: All sin, no matter how small, will send someone to hell for all eternity
The fallacy here is that this syllogism is a non-sequitur (the conclusion does not follow from the premises). Could it be that people are in Hell for all eternity based upon who they are rather than what they have done?
Think about this. We believe that Christ’s atonement was penal substitution. This means that it was a legal trade. God counted the sufferings of Christ and that which transpired on the Cross as payment for our sins, each and every one. Therefore, we believe that Christ took the punishment that we deserved. But there is a problem. We are saying that we deserve eternal Hell for one single sin, no matter how small. I don’t know about you, but I have committed enough sins to give me more than my share of life sentences. I have committed sins of the”insignificant” variety (I speed everyday) and significant variety (no description necessary!). So, if Christ were only to die for me and only me and take my penalty and I deserve thousands upon thousands of eternities in hell, why didn’t Christ spend at least one eternity in Hell? Why is it that He was off the Cross in six hours, payment made in full? Combine my sentence with your sentence. Then combine ours with the cumulative sentences of all believers of all time. Yet Christ only suffers for a short time? How do we explain this?
You may say to me that I cannot imagine the intensity of suffering that Christ endured while He was on the cross. You may say that the mysterious transaction that took place was worse than eternity in Hell. I would give you the first, but I will have to motivate you to reconsider the second. Think about it. Do you really believe that the person who has been in hell for 27 billion years with 27 billion more times infinity would not look to the sufferings of Christ and say, “You know what? Christ’s six hours of suffering was bad. It is indeed legendary. But I would trade what I am going through any day for six hours, no matter how horrifying it would be.” You see, what makes hell so bad is not simply the intensity of suffering, but the duration. Christ did not suffer eternally, so there must be something more to this substitution idea and there must be something more to sin.
I believe that Christ did pay our penalty. I believe that hell is eternal. But I don’t believe that one sin sends people to hell for eternity. Sin is trivialized in our day. Sin is first something that we do, not something that we are. In other words, people think of God sitting on the throne becoming enraged (in a holy sort of way) each time that someone breaks the speed limit. It is only the cross of Christ that makes Him look passed the eternally damning sin and forgive us. Don’t think that I am undermining the severity of sin (read here as I deal more with personal sin), but I am trying to bring focus to the real problem that has infected humanity since the Garden. The real problem is that we are at enmity with God. From the moment we are born, we inherit the traits of our father Adam. This infectious disease is called sin. This disease issues forth into a disposition toward God that causes us to begin life with our fist in the air, not recognizing His love for us or authority over us. It is rebellion. While this rebellion does act according to its nature, the problem is in the disposition, not so much the acts. When we sin, we are just acting according to the dictates of our corrupt nature. But the worst of it-the worst sin of all-is that we will never lower our fist to God. We are “by nature children of wrath” (Eph. 2:3) and as a leopard cannot change his spots, so we cannot change our rebellious disposition toward our creator (Jer. 13:23).
This disposition is that of a fierce enemy that cannot do anything but fight against its foe. Paul describes this:
Romans 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
We are of the “flesh,” therefore we commit deeds according to the flesh. Does this mean that the person in this state does no good at all? Well, it depends on what you mean by “good.” Can an enemy of God love his neighbor? Sure. Enemies of God can and do all sorts of acts that the Bible would consider virtuous. But from the standpoint of their relationship with God, they cannot do any good at all (Rom. 3:12). Giving a drink to someone who is thirsty with the left hand while having your right hand in a fist clinched toward heaven does not count as “good” before God. Why? Because we are in rebellion against Him. This is our problem. This I propose is the only sin that keeps people in Hell for all eternity.
It is important to understand that hell not is filled with people who are crying out for God’s mercy, constantly hoping for a second chance. People are in hell because they have the same disposition toward God that they had while they were walking the earth. They do not suddenly, upon entrance into Hell, change their nature and become sanctified. They still hate God. People are in hell for all eternity, not because they floated a stop sign, but because their fists are still clinched toward God. They are not calling on His mercy. They are not pleading for a second chance. They are in hell for all eternity because that is where they would rather be. It is their nature. As C.S. Lewis once said, “The doors of hell are locked from the inside.”
Christ, on the other hand, was the second Adam. He did not identify with the first either in disposition or choice. He gained the right to be called the second Adam who would represent His people (Rom. 5:12ff). He is not spending eternity in Hell because He was never infected with the sinful nature which caused Him to be at enmity with God. His fist was never clinched toward the heavens.
Will one white-lie send someone to Hell for all eternity? No! To say otherwise trivializes sin and makes God an overly sensitive cosmic torcher lover. Sin does send people to Hell. People will be punished for their sins accordingly. But the sin that keeps people in Hell for all eternity is the sin of perpetual rebellion.
59 replies to "Will One White Lie Send You to Hell for All Eternity?"
Very well said, Michael. People who suffer from an overwhelming sense of guilt for the small mistakes and sins they make need to read this. My husband was abused as a child and I find that he can barely live with himself when he makes a small mistake. So, instead, he needs to blame someone else for that mistake so that he CAN live with himself. For him, it’s like “mistake equals evil equals useless. If I make a mistake, I am useless. If I am useless, I shouldn’t be alive. Therefore, someone else must really be responsible for this mistake.” No amount of my explaining to him and trying to help him really helps him. He gets angry with me if I try to tell him that the only one that can really help him is God. He does not ever experience the presence or peace that God could give him. He has many nightmares and tries to calm them down and his thinking down with drinking alcohol. The hell he is going through is SO difficult to watch. I pray for him and I pray that God will work through me to help him, but so far, he seems unable, unwilling or unbelieving to accept that help.
Joanie,
I am so sorry that he has such a burden to carry each day. I know that this burden must be difficult for you as well. I will pray for you both as well.
Michael
Great Stuff, Where do you get the time to think upon this!
I can agree with all the statements you propose and your right on, humanity
That is a good question. What I would say is that while blasphemy of the Holy Spirity is very difficult to understand, the best way to understand it is rejecting God’s call through the Holy Spirit. Therefore it is the same as rebellion against God.
John 3:18-19 seems to say that condemnation is the default position of humans because of their corrupt nature. We don’t fall but the grace of God pulls us out of hell.
Santos
I think you’re being more than uncharitable to those who would point out (relatively) small sins to the people who are listening.
I think the example you used is a caricature.
I think your syllogism is wrong. It might also go something like this:
1. Everyone who sins is a sinner.
2. Sinners deserve hell.
3. You’ve sinned, therefore you’re a sinner.
4. You deserve hell.
So, while I think you’re correct that sinners deserve hell because they are sinners and in perpetual rebellion against God, many people fail to realize they are sinners unless you point out their sin, particularly if by the standards of society, they are good people.
Meanwhile, even if a preacher believes as you say he believes, I’m not sure this particular statement is quite the crisis you make it out to be.
Michael, didn’t the whole sin thing start with a white-lie? Gen 3:1 “Has God indeed said, You shall not eat of every tree of the Garden?”. It looks to me that it all started with one white-lie.
The holiness of God demands that not even one white-lie is acceptable.
It makes us ponder with awe and gratitude the work of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that He was sinless through His whole life on earth.
May praise and glory be to Him forever and ever.
Taffy, I agree that all sin is bad by definition. I don’t mean to undermine sin in any way. But it was not one white lie from Adam and Eve that got them expelled from the Garden, but from the snake. Their sin is that they believed the snake rather than God. In doing so they rejected God and his authority in their lives. This is the very essence of the sin nature that makes Hell eternal.
Awaynechance,
Thanks for the comments. I appreciate your focus. I surely don’t want to undermine white lies or floating of stop signs, but just to bring them into perspective.
Michael
Michael, I agree with you and that it was a lot more than a white-lie. They were given dominion of the earth and they chose the advice of a snake. They walked in the cool of the day with the Lord and yet they were banished from the Garden. A true sad tale.
Thanks for the blog.
Man, I turn my head for a second and next thing I know you have about 6 new blog posts! It’s great to see – just gotta find time to catch up.
It seems to me that after your initial sin (which I’ll agree is your ‘born with’ rebellion against God); all other sin is simply used by God to grow you closer to him through the conviction of that sin. For a non-Christian, or Christ-Follower ;), sin is really irrelevant, correct? But for Christians, sin is God’s way of keeping us inline with His will. So to me, I was going to hell either way, whether I sped today or didn’t, or convicted murder today, or didn’t (had I not accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior).
Not sure if that makes sense – it does in my head, but I don’t think I articulated it as clearly – sorry. I think it’s inline with blog.
So to have a quick little Calvinist fun with you (cause that’s where I left off with my other posts) – is this sentence really accurate for you?
They are in hell for all eternity because that is where they would rather be.
Not looking for a response here, unless you feel obliged – just caught my eye 😉
I would not say that sin is irrelevant, although I know what you are saying. Sin is hideous in the site of God and we must not make lite of it. Personal sin can still separate the Christian relationally from God even if it will not annul our standing before God.
I think that your articulation “They are in hell for all eternity because that is where they would rather be is great.” Have you ever read C.S. Lewis’ The Great Divorce? A masterpiece on this issue! Says the same thing is such a creative and captivating style. The book is very short too!
I didn’t proofread my original comment well – my apologies.
My thought process was the sin was irrelevant for Non-Christians in a way – in that God isn’t necessarily using it do draw them closer to Him like he is Christians. However, after hearing that out loud, it’s probably an incorrect statement too. My guess is that God is using all/many things in the life to draw all of us closer to him – we just have to open our eyes to see it.
I’ve never read any C.S. Lewis actually – I’ll try and pick that up.
I LOVE C.S. Lewis! I haven’t read all his books yet, but quite a few of them. I don’t think I have read his Four Loves yet or The Great Divorce so I may do that in the near future. His Mere Christianity is a classic.
Personal sin is far from irrelevant and as Michael stated above it does cause us to spearate from God’s will for us and has consequences. One only needs to read about David and Bathsheeba to see how David’s sin had consequences for not only him but his family (ie. baby). I have Christian friends who actually think it is better to keep their faith to themselves and the people they know then openly share it because they don’t want to discourage anyone or turn them away from God due to their “less then perfect” walk. I enjoyed Michael’s article and ask one question: what do you think about the concept of eternal Hell being simply God blotting you out of existence PERMANENTLY?
Stan, all I can say is that I wish that were the case. Annihilationalism is the belief that after some set amount of time, God will do away with hell and all its inhabitants, annihilating them from existence. While there have been some arguments made for this position from some able evangelicals, I think it is a hopeless cause to think that this is actually what the Scriptures teach. Hell is eternal, even if I don’t like it.
The following verses would suggest that not all sins are the same. Matt 7:4. I cannot believe that a speck and a beam of wood can be of the same size. (NET Bible)
1 John 3:1-10 and 1 John 5:16-17 might also be helpful. In all these verses the word “brother” can be found, so it does not refer to unbelievers or Pharisees who refuse to believe in Jesus
or falsely accused Jesus of driving out demons with the help or power of the prince of demons.
If a person’s sin is forgiven, is that person still a sinner?
(Luke 7:47-50)
I don’t mean being sinless in this life, but being considered sinless by God the Father because of what God the Son did.(John 1:12-13)
Very good article.
The only part I disagree with is you questioning “Why is it that He was off the Cross in six hours, payment made in full?” It appears you are viewing the cross as a one-to-one payment of our sins, with each sin resulting in an element of suffering for Christ. But we know from Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death, not suffering. So it was Christ
Thanks epigamma,
You comments are in line with that of a governmental theory of the atonement, not the traditional penal substitutionary theory. The governmental view can still be thought of as a substitution for sin, but not a substitutions for sins (plural) which, according to the penal view, understands that Christ took the punishment vicariously for all our sins.
I am of the traditional protestant reformed tradition believing in a penal substitution for sins. I think the primary passage which compels me in this regard is that of Isa 53.
53:5 He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds, crushed because of our sins; he endured punishment that made us well; because of his wounds we have been healed. All of us had wandered off like sheep; each of us had strayed off on his own path, but the Lord caused the sin of all of us to attack him.
Notice in particular, the sin that fell upon him, in this context is “our rebellious deeds.” I believe that He suffered, not just death, but as a penal substitution for our sins.
Other, usually of the Arminian persuasion, will take the stance that you have with a more governmental view.
Thanks again!
Michael
Thanks Michael.
It might surprise you to know I am a Calvinist, albeit a relatively new one. I appreciate your response, however, I still hold to my view. I believe that Christ
Bill,
Great comments. I often think about this and then wonder why He said “It is finished” before He died. This seems like it implies that the atonement was complete before His death, which in turn allowed Him to give up His spirit.
No unclean thing will touch the mountain of God, Mt. zion. There are many who are deceiving themselves into believing they are ok while they continue in sin. As peter wrote, they are beguiling unstable souls, cursed children who cannot cease from sin. We must suffer with Jesus according to scripture. To suffer in the flesh is to cease from sin according to scripture. To cease from something is to stop it completely, all sin. 1 John tells us he who is born of God doth not commit sin and it goes on to tells us we cannot sin. This is due to our new nature. John chapter one tells us we receive the power to become the sons of God. When we are born again, we receive the power to cease from sin. THis is impossible with man alone. There are few who find the straight gate that leads unto life. There are many who seek to justify themselves, but we may deceive ourselves, but never God. We cannot make the bible fit our life, we must make our life fit the bible. We must live by every word of God according to scripture. The bible also tells us a good tree bringeth forth not corrupt fruit. None at all. It does not say a good tree will bring forth small corrupt fruit, or a little corrupt fruit. If any corrupt fruit remains on the tree it is a corrupt tree even if it is just one small, tiny little piece of fruit. A tree is known by his fruit according to the bible. How can we who are dead to sin live any longer therein (romans 6). Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid (romans 6). There are so many scriptures that are clear that Christians do not sin at all. There are many who trivialize sin by teaching that Christians will continue to sin. This is contrary to scripture and is evil. It does us no good to seek to justify and deceive ourselves. God will not except any one who lives in sin into his kingdom, without repentence. Be not deceived. The righteousness of the law must be fulfilled in us (romans 6). The bible says, not me.
Bible Study,
I have read several comments you have made on this blog that are similar to this one and I really want to ask you a question.
Do you honestly believe that since you became a Christian you have never sinned once? Never done a single thing you shouldn’t have, never left undone one single thing that you should have done, and never once had one impure or improper thought?
And what do you do with verses like I John 1:8–2:1? These verses are plainly addressed to Christian believers are they not?
No I haven’t and 1 John is addressed to unbelievers. 2:1 “if any man sin”. Christ is the propitiation for not our (Christians) sins only, but for the sins of the whole world (any man who still lives in sin). I have sinned, but that was before the new nature was given to me. The bible does say there are many things hard to be understood about the bible and many who are unstable wrest with them to their own destruction, so I do not claim to know it all. However, I do not that once I became Christ’s, I have had no impure thoughts, or beliefs. I have not lusted for a woman, stolen, walked in anger or wrath, emulations, strife, seditions, etc. I have not hated, nor murdered, nor disobeyed the King, nor governors, etc. I know I could not have done this in my own power. I tried before, but was not truly saved. Only when the spirit of God came into my life was there a change on the inside, that changed my life. This is the way I see the bible, and my life has been brought into obedience through the power of Christ. I am fully persuaded in my own mind, as all should be. Whatever we believe, the bible tells us to be “fully” persuaded, with no doubt. I believe those who sin from time to time are wavering, not steadfast and unmoveable. James tells us a man who wavers is like a wave driven of the wind and tossed, this man is double minded and will receive nothing from the Lord.
Bible Study,
All I can say is, you are the only person that has ever succeeded in living a 100% sin free life while still on this earth! Quite an accomplishment there I would say.
It would seem that by your definition even Paul, Barnabas, and Peter were not really saved or at best were wavering and wouldn’t receive
anything from the Lord. After all, Peter was a hypocrit at one point. Paul and Barnabas had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company, and Paul seems to indicate in Acts 24:21 that he had said something he shouldn’t of. And what about the two women that Paul speaks about in Philippians 4? Obviously from what he said he believed they were Christians, but they evidently couldn’t get along. All folks who sinned after coming to Jesus it would seem to me.
When Peter denyed Christ, the holy spirit had not yet come. Pentacost had not fully come. As I said, there are many things hard to be understood. Am I the only one to live sin free? Absolutely not. Jesus lived a completely sin free life. I have only been sin free since he saved me, truly saved me. Job also was a perfect and upright man. Not to mention Daniel, Noah and the other saints in the bible. The bible tells us to be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect. Would God require something of us that is impossible. This is impossible with man, but with God all things are possible as written in the scripture. Do you think it is impossible for God to make someone completely sin free? I believe with God all things indeed are possible. As for Jesus living sin free. He also told us as he was in the world (sin free), so are we now in the world.
I also wanted to add that this entry says people in hell are not begging for God’s mercy. However, the bible speaks of a rich man that was in hell and lift up his eyes being in torment and spoke unto abraham to just dip his finger in water and touch his tongue. The water from where Abraham was proceeds from the throne of God, and represents the living water, or spirit of God. I would say he wanted mercy and was not where he wanted to be. We are to cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself above the word of God. If we declare something to be true that is in direct opposition to the word of God, we are allowing imaginations to be exalted above the word of God.
John 1:8-10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Notice that John uses the inclusive word “we” here meaning himself included. John here was speaking as a Christian after Pentecost. He seemed to think he still had sin.
Romans 7:15
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
Seems Paul still had problems with sinning both in omission and commission despite being saved.
Bible Study,
All the examples I gave in my comment above were of believers after the day of Pentecost when the Spirit had already come. When I spoke of Peter being a hypocrite I was talking about in the book of Acts where he refused to eat with the Gentile believers because he feared the Jews. Can you truly say that none of those I mentioned were sinning in what they did? And if that is so, according to you, were they not saved?
Furthermore notice 1 John 2:1-2 which follows the statement in 1 John above
“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One, 2:2 and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world.”
The phrase “my little children” here is a common way of referring to ones disciples and followers. Here John is referring to people who are ALREADY Christians, but are young in the faith and being discipled and taught by John. This is confirmed by the last phrase which refers to “our sins” in addition to the sins of the world. This inclusive phrase refers to both John and his followers and means that Christ’s death attones for the sins that John and his followers have committed in addition to those they will commit in the future.
In further confirmation of this we have the ending of the first sentence and beggining of the second sentence. John tells his followers not to sin. Unless they were Christians already this statement would make no sense since apart from Christ it is completely impossible not to sin. Yet then John tells these people, who are already Christians that even if they do sin, though they are Christians, their sin will be atoned for.
Ultimately your writings here are heresy of the worst kind.
Michael T,
I completely agree with your understanding of those verses in I John. They would make absolutely no sense whatsoever if they were addressed to unbelievers. Besides the fact that he specifically addresses them to “my little children”.
Children refers to the lost in the bible, this can be inferred from the verse where Paul says when I was a child, I spake as a child, thought as a child, understood as a child, but when he became a man, he put away childish things. When he became a man, he was no longer a child. When we become Christians, we are no longer “children” in bondage to sin, or under the elements of the world as written in scripture. When we are children, we are in bondage, when we become men (saved) we put away childish (bondage to sin) things. Children clearly is seen in scripture through many other verses to represent the lost. As for peter, Lord willing, I will dive into this further at a later time. You have made a great point on him, he was definitely saved at this time. It appears that you are right, but I know there are many scriptures that are hard to be understood with the carnal mind. We must allow God to give us understanding.
Well, besides the fact that I don’t in any way agree with your interpretaion about what “my little children” means in I John, can you tell me why in the world John would be writing to non Christians so that they might not sin, but if they do Jesus will be the sacrifice for them?
Non Christians will sin–they have no power of the Holy Spirit to keep them from it. So it is a given that it is going to happen. So why tell them not to do it and then to state but IF they do it, here is what is to happen? There is no IF about it for the unsaved. Your interpretation doesn’t work at all, IMO.
Bible Study,
Can you say eisegesis?? The verse you cite proves just the opposite of what you are arguing. This is in fact a verse where “children” must refer to believers since Paul himself is indicating that he is a spiritual child here.
1 Corinthians 13:9-12
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, 13:10 but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. 13:12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known.
Paul here is making an analogy between HIS (note the inclusive use of “we” throughout and the use of “I” in the last verse)CURRENT state and a FUTURE state of perfection. He is comparing this tranformation that will occur IN THE FUTURE to the tranformation that one undergoes as they move from childhood into adulthood. Paul is stating that he and his followers are all children in a state of imperfection.
Note that he says “WHEN the perfect comes”. It is future not present tense indicating that he is currently imperfect and awaiting perfection to come in the future. Further note that he states “NOW I know in part, but THEN I will know fully”. Paul is talking about an event bringing perfection that is in the future and not presently realized. With the analagy of child and adult Paul is indicating that we are all, him included (note the use of “I” again), currently spritual children (though physicall we may be an adult). By your hermeneutic we could only conclude that Paul was unsaved when he wrote 1 Corinthians which would be blaspheme.
Dear C Michael Patton and all,
I was so glad to read your article (and the comments after). I really liked your word “rebellion” as the key to hell.
For as the Bible says, even the devil believes and trembles.
Some time ago I read a bit about earlier Christians (I know most Christian bookstores start Christianity in the 1500’s, but…) 🙂
I had read some about St. Francis of Assisi, and his following was called the people of the mats. Because after making vows of poverty, that was all they had and sat on mats.. God performed tremendous miracles among them, and they even cleaned up their minds by apologizing to anyone if they had a bad “thought” toward anyone. Talk about accountability. But there is one thing that I could not help but notice, if these people had nothing, whatever the case may be, they were reliant upon others to feed them. And it really occurred to me, in this fallen world, wherever we turn and whatever we do that seems good there is always a bad side to it as well. We do something right, we step out in love, and there almost always seems to be something wrong with it as well. That is why I believe Jesus said, who loves much is forgiven much and who loves little is forgiven little.
Just like I previously mentioned Matt 5:23. We cannot fix everything. Some things we cannot change.
I also read about a young nun who got permission from the Mother to sleep on sticks and tie a dreadful rope around her waist. Her reason was to not get comfortable in this life.
But should others be required to do it? Can you imagine the heart of others doing it. They would be possibly acting or thinking like they did service to God or got rewards or a host of bad thinking.
It truly is the heart that God wants. Separation from God is permanent in Hell and I think that will occur to some there (like the rich man and Lazarus) but perhaps not to others. That is why I believe above all that it is true torment, along with the fire and…
cherylu,
You wonder why I believe 1 John is speaking to the unsaved, and u don’t understand why he would be speaking to the unsaved because they cannot cease from sin. Well, let me ask, have you ever spoken to an unbeliever and tried to convince them not to sin? If so, why would you when they cannot? And if you did, would you not tell them that Jesus is the propitiation for not only for your sins, but theirs also. It is God’s will that men stop sinning. Should we not convince them not to do so? As for the perfect Michael, it is given Paul was not lost. When I spoke of “be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect”, I was speaking of the scripture in Peter, and no he was not lost. That scripture is speaking of the here and now, is it not? And what do you do with the scripture in Galatians, where it speaks of those who are in bondage as being children? But when the fulness of time comes, which is when Jesus came, we are set free from the bondage of the law, for no flesh is justified by the law in the sight of God. Only those who remain in sin, remain in bondage to the law. For against the spirit, there is no law. We know sin dwells in the flesh, and if we walk after the flesh (sin), we will die, for the wages of sin is death. And what is so hard to believe that Jesus can take a fleshly body and perfect it, did he not do that in his own body, and did not God give him power over all flesh as written in the gospels? If he has power over all flesh, including our flesh, cannot he overcome it in us? To say no would be blasphemy, for with God all things are possible as written in scripture. Is it not true, that greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world? We are in the world, but when Christ is in us, he is more than able to constrain us from sin. Again these are my beliefs, you do not have to accept them as I can see you do not, and that is fine. We disagree, but this is interesting.
Also the “face” in the bible represents the glory of God which is Jesus Christ. The children of Israel got hung up on the law and worshipping idols, they were not able to look on Moses face which was shining with the glory of god of which Jesus is the brightness. The word contains these words as well “in the face of Jesus Christ”. When we look to the face, we are no longer in darkness or seeing darkly as those who are in sin. When we become men, we put away childish things and then see face to face with other believers, as 1 John tells us he that hears us not is not of God, hereby we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error (kjv). Those who do not see face to face are in sin, walking in darkness, seeing darkly. In the spirit, New Jerusalem, the glass is crystal clear. When we are in the spirit, we see through the law unto Jesus. Which the “children” of Israel could not do, they could not steadfastly look upon Moses’ face for the glory, so a veil was put upon him. The bible tells us the same veil is upon their hearts with the reading of the law, but when it turns to Jesus, the veil is taken away, they see the face when Jesus is brought out of the law, or they see the glory of God, which is Jesus. So when we see Jesus, we are no longer knowing in part, but the fulness. That which is in part is done away. The law is done away in Christ, or rather it is fulfilled in Christ. Where no law is, there is no transgression. Jesus nailed the law to the cross, and took it out of the way. Sin is not imputed when there is no law. I maintain, I do not sin. When we see the fulness, the face, face to face, we are no longer in part, children who are in bondage under the elements of the world, the law. We are men, well when we no longer see darkly, but the face, when we escape bondage of sin, when we are no longer in bondage to the law.
Bible Study,
You say again, “I maintain, I do not sin.”
If that is indeed true, you are certainly the only human being, besides Jesus of course, that I have ever known it to be true of. Even the best of Christians that I know obviously sin and would tell you that they did if you asked them.
I can’t help but wonder what those that know you and work with you day after day would say about your assertion that you never sin? Would they be able to say wholeheartedly that is indeed the case?
I doubt that most of them could, why? Because most of the world does not understand the bible spiritually. The law is fulfilled in Christ, through faith alone and sin is transgression of the law. Romans tells us the law is spiritual. We, in the kingdom of God, understand spiritual truth. To give you and example where I am coming from. 1 John tells us a liar is one who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Therefore, according to the biblical definition, if we believe in Jesus and do not deny that he is the Christ through unbelief, we are not liar. THerefore, we keep the commandment not to lie. Thou shalt not steal is also fulfilled through faith in Jesus according to the biblical definition of stealing. John chapter 10 tells us if we seek to climb up any other way than through Jesus, we are theives and robbers, we know theives and robbers steal. That being said, when we are climbing up through faith alone in JEsus, we are not theives. If we are not theives, we do not steal, if we stole, we would be a theif. This is the spiritual definition, God’s definition of theif and liar, not the carnal definition. If you are asking if I live a holy appearing life in the flesh according to the works of the law, no I don’t. I do however live holy in the spirit, I am dead to the flesh and alive in the spirit. I worship in spirit, not in the flesh. Another example, Paul taught that circumcision is not the outward act but that act is a picture of the spiritual circumcision which is the birth of the spirit in our life. We don’t have to be circumcised naturally, nor keep the other commandments according to works and natural understanding. The law has deeper meanings that requires the spirit to see. Those who are not born again of the spirit, do not understand this mystery. To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
I maintain I do not sin, I am also aware that many will cast me out as evil, say I have a devil, and so on. That is ok, I am used to suffering for Christ, but my righteousness comes only through him which has given me spiritual understanding. I can prove all commandments in scripture are fulfilled through faith in Christ, not just stealing, lying, and circumcision. I have shown most of them on my website. If you are interested in it, I will let you know what the address is. It’s up to you. I pray God will lead us both in the way of truth and understanding, that neither one of us live in error. God bless.
Bible Study,
Am I off the deep end to call you a gnostic? You sure seem like one. Also you have failed to respond to my exegesis of the passages which you support your belief with. Furthermore if Peter was in sin when he refused to eat with Gentiles your position fails anyhow. One example of a Christian sinning in the Bible and it’s game over for you’re view. I would suggest that Peter is that example.
Bible Study,
I guess you can go right on maintaining you don’t sin all you like. But I must say I never believed you in the first place because I don’t believe the New Testament taken in its entirety shows that to be the way life is.
And I am sorry, but I certainly don’t believe you now after your confession that you just made!
Michael, I in no wise to believe this to be a game. However, whoever is wrong loses in the worst way, and for that I do not rejoice, whether it be me or you. I am not seeking to prove me right and you wrong, only displaying my thoughts on the bible. Whether it is you or me that is right in the interpretation of the bible, I wish to find the truth. If I am wrong, which I don’t believe at this point, but hypothetically please explain your interpretation of 1 John 3:9 and the scriptures such as Romans 6, and the gospels that proclaim a tree shall be known by it’s fruit, and a good tree doth not bring forth corrupt fruit. These are the ones that I believe support my view on Christians not sinning. If you could explain these in truth, and I can see truth, I will believe. And for my profit, please use the KJV of the bible for this is the only one I am familiar with. There are many others I believe to support my view, but these are some easy understood verses that take great weight in my view. Lets say again hypothetically if I am wrong and if you could show me truth, and God allows me to see, I would rather we all win this most important game, that neither of us will be or remain in deception. And as for Peter, God protected him from sinning, he did not refuse to go with the gentiles. God gave him what he needed in order not to sin before they came, he then went nothing doubting. As far as his heart, if you go that way “but it was in his heart”, in his heart he was keeping the commandment of God not to eat unclean meat as in the old testament law. His heart was right, but his view was wrong. When God revealed truth to him, he was able to see it immediately because of the spirit’s teaching, which in turn kept him from sin. Again, I find no joy in either of us being wrong. What glory is it if I am right. If I am, it is because God gave me understanding, it would still be nothing I have done. If you were right, there is no difference.
Bible Study,
Take a look at these two Scriptures which both speak of a lie–and they have nothing to do with denying that Jesus is the Christ.
In the first one, two folks, Ananias and his wife both lied to the Apostles and therefore to the Holy Spirit. Presumably they were Christians. And, by the way, the price they paid for their lie in this case was immediate physical death. (And oh yes, here are two more believers in the New Testament that sinned!) Here is the verse:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
And how about this one in James? Here he is telling Christians to not lie against the truth by the type of life they are living. Again, it has nothing to do with denying that Jesus is the Christ.
James 3:13-14 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth.
Or how about this verse:
Ephesians 4:28 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.
Here Paul is talking to Christians and telling them not to steal. And notice, it obviously has absolutely nothing to do with climbing in another way then through Jesus but is talking about actual stealing instead of working and therefore having something to share with others.
Do you still honestly believe that it is only the”spiritual understanding” of these things that count and not the these actual acts themselves that are sin? I honestly do not see any way that is possible myself.
The important thing is that the one who knows the truth condescend to men of low estate, not to glory in ourselves. We need to help one another, not compete with them. If you saw someone with a broken leg, would you laugh and mock because you can run and this man can’t? Or would you help him and have mercy? Loving our brothers is what it is all about. Helping those who have need is very important. We are all brothers and sisters having one father, one creator, God the father of the Lord Jesus Christ. If I am wrong, if I am blind, will you not help me see? Again, please explain your view on the above mentioned scriptures with in detail backup of scripture. The more detail given, well lets just say, some of us may need things broken down in order to understand. I do not concede that you are correct at this point, and I won’t until it is proven undenialbly through scripture. I am sorry if this is frustrating, but I ask you to have patience. Please explain your view on these scriptures. Thanks.
What do they need, is he really speaking of natural labor, or laboring to enter into the rest of Jesus, rest from our own works of the flesh, that we may give them the true gospel. As Jesus told Martha, only one thing is needful, that is faith in Jesus. If we labor to enter into the rest of God, as found in Hebrews, we are laboring in the good work of faith. Then we can give the needy what they need, the truth. The natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God, because they are spiritually discerned. We must rightly divide the word of truth, comparing natural things with natural, no but comparing spiritual things with spiritual, for the law is spiritual. If we don’t have to be circumcised naturally, but this is accomplished through faith and the new birth of the spirit, what makes you think the entire law is not spiritual as well? Romans 7 tells us “the law is spiritual”. The entire law is spiritual. As scripture states, the law is a shadow of good things to come (Christ), but not the very image. The image of the natural cirucmcision gives us a better understanding, or picture, or shadow, of the true spiritual circumcision. The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us through faith.
And when James speaks of “lie not against the truth”, he first says glory not. We know the Pharisees kept the law naturally and were glorying in their flesh, their own righteousness, their shame.
Ananias and his wife lied for money, to keep money. Isaiah tells us we can buy from God without money and without price. Salvation is free, not costing us anything, not even works of righteousness in the flesh. If something is not free, it usually costs money. God is showing us that salvation is free, costing us nothing. We don’t even have to have so-called works of righteousness in the flesh.
They represent those who follow a false gospel that is not a free gift, but that must be earned, or purchased, such as the Pharisees seeking to earn salvation by works. In doing so, they deny Christ, being abominable, as Mystery BAbylon (the false church, or harlot) is the mother of these abominations. Again they deny Christ, making them liars.
Bible Study,
I am sorry. I said the verses about Peter were in Acts. I was wrong. They are in Galatians. I tried to copy them in the King James Version, but for some strange reason, they just would not copy. This is the New American Standard Bible version.
Galatians 2:11-13 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
You see Peter, who was sometimes called Cephas, was clearly guilty of hypocricy here. And he actually carried it out, it wasn’t just in his heart.
Bible Study,
Sometimes the Bible means simply what it says. If it says Ananias and Sapphira lied because they held back part of the price of the land while they pretended to give it all like the rest had done, then they lied. Period. Everything in the Bible does not have to be turned into a metaphor of something else. Sometimes it just plain means what it says!
If you will not address the scripture that says, he that is born of god doth not commit sin because his seed remains in him, and he cannot sin. This is simple, and yes some things are hidden in metaphors. However, this verse in 1 John is simple. He that is born of God doth not commit sin and cannot sin because he is born of God. Are we not born of God when we are saved? Regardless of what anyone thinks, we most definitely are. The bible also is clear that the “seed”, Abrahams “seed” is Christ to be specific. So we are born of God, and the “seed” (which is Christ) remains in us, therefore we cannot sin. It is there, it cannot be denied along with many other scriptures that show we do not sin. Again, what about a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit. Again, it does not say it may or will bring forth only a little. And what about Romans 6 that ask, How are we who are dead to sin gonna live any longer therein. Know ye not to whom ye yeild yourselves servants, his servants you are whether of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness. Hey if you want to continue in sin, that is a choice you and only you can make, or rather God makes it for you. However, if we die in sin, where Jesus is we cannot go. Except we repent of sin, we will likewise perish. This is all scripture, I have laid it out many times, yet still unaddressed. They are there, and no one can make them go away, not even by ignoring them. If we continue in sin, we have not repented. To repent is to turn from our sin, not continue in it. We must repent and believe the gospel of Jesus or perish. The wages of sin is death. Peter also speaks of those who cannot cease from sin. What do you think “cease” means. I am pretty sure it means to stop. If you continue to do something, you have not ceased from it. This book tells us those who cannot cease from sin, are beguiling unstable souls, with a heart exercised with covetous practices, cursed children, who have gone astray.