I have heard this since I was a very young Christian. It seemed somewhat reasonable as it was explained to me by pastors in sermons and by Christians as they explained the seriousness of sin. The claim goes something like this:
All sin is so bad that even the smallest of sins deserves eternal punishment in hell. It does not matter if it is losing your temper at a lousy referee, not sharing your Icee, or speeding 36 in a 35, every sin deserves eternal torment in Hell. Why? Although it may seem unreasonable to us (as depraved as we are), it is fitting for a perfectly holy God who cannot be in the site of sin, no matter how insignificant this sin might seem to us. In fact, there is no sin that is insignificant to God. Because He is infinitely holy, beyond our understanding, all sin is infinitely offensive to Him. Therefore, the punishment for all sin must be infinite.
I have to be very careful here since I am going against what has become the popular evangelical way to present the Gospel, but I don’t believe this is true. Not only do I not buy it, I think this, like the idea that all sins are equal in the sight of God, is damaging to the character of God, the significance of the cross, and I believe it trivializes sin. Let me explain.
First off, I don’t know of a passage in the Bible that would suggest such a radical view. It would seem that people make this conclusion this way:
Premise 1: Hell is eternal
Premise 2: All people that go there are there for eternity
Premise 3: Not all people have committed the same number or the same degree of sins
Conclusion: All sin, no matter how small, will send someone to hell for all eternity
The fallacy here is that this syllogism is a non-sequitur (the conclusion does not follow from the premises). Could it be that people are in Hell for all eternity based upon who they are rather than what they have done?
Think about this. Evangelicals such as myself believe that Christ’s atonement was penal substitution. This means that it was a legal trade. God counted the sufferings of Christ and that which transpired on the Cross as payment for our sins, each and every one. Therefore, we believe that Christ took the punishment that we deserved. But there is a problem. We are saying that we deserve eternal Hell for one single sin, no matter how small. I don’t know about you, but I have committed enough sins to give me more than my share of life sentences. I have committed sins of the “insignificant” variety (I speed everyday) and significant variety (no description necessary!). So, if Christ were only to take my penalty and if I deserve thousands upon thousands of eternities in hell, why didn’t Christ spend at least one eternity in Hell? Why is it that he was off the Cross in six hours, payment made in full? Combine my sentence with your sentence. Then combine ours with the cumulative sentences of all believers of all time. Yet Christ only suffers for a short time? How do we explain this?
You may say to me that I cannot imagine the intensity of suffering that Christ endured while he was on the cross. You may say that the mysterious transaction that took place was worse than eternity in Hell. I would give you the first, but I will have to motivate you to reconsider the second. Think about it. Do you really believe that the person who has been in hell for 27 billion years with 27 billion more times infinity would not look to the sufferings of Christ and say, “You know what? Christ’s six hours of suffering was bad. It is indeed legendary. But I would trade what I am going through any day for six hours, no matter how horrifying it would be.” You see, what makes hell so bad is not simply the intensity of suffering, but the duration. Christ did not suffer eternally, so there must be something more to this substitution idea and there must be something more to sin.
I believe that Christ did pay our penalty. I believe that hell is eternal. But I don’t believe that one sin sends people to hell for eternity.
Sin is trivialized in our day. Sin is first something that we do, not something that we are. In other words, people think of God sitting on the throne becoming enraged (in a holy sort of way) each time that someone breaks the speed limit. It is only the cross of Christ that makes Him look past the eternally damning sin and forgive us. Don’t think that I am undermining the severity of sin, but I am trying to bring focus to the real problem that has infected humanity since Eden.
The real problem is that we are at enmity with God. From the moment we are born, we inherit the traits of our father Adam. This infectious disease is called sin. This disease issues forth into a disposition toward God that causes us to begin life with our fist in the air, not recognizing His love for us or authority over us. It is rebellion. While this rebellion does act according to its nature, the problem is in the disposition, not so much the acts. When we sin, we are just acting according to the dictates of our corrupt nature. But the worst of it—the worst sin of all—is that we will never lower our fist to God. We are “by nature, children of wrath” (Eph. 2:3; emphasis added) and as a leopard cannot change his spots, so we cannot change our rebellious disposition toward our Creator (Jer. 13:23). We need a new nature. We need a new head of the human race to identify with.
Our disposition outside of Christ is that of a fierce enemy that cannot do anything but fight against its foe. Paul describes this:
Romans 8:7-8
“For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (emphasis added)
We are of the “flesh,” therefore we commit deeds according to the flesh. Does this mean that the person in this state does no good at all? Well, it depends on what you mean by “good.” Can an enemy of God love his neighbor? Of course. Enemies of God can and do all sorts of acts that the Bible would consider virtuous. But from the standpoint of their relationship with God, they cannot do any good at all (Rom. 3:12). Giving a drink to someone who is thirsty with the left hand while having your right hand in a fist clinched toward heaven does not count as “good” before God. Why? Because we are in rebellion against Him. This is our problem. It is our nature.
This, I propose, is what keeps people in Hell for all eternity. Hell not is filled with people who are crying out for God’s mercy, constantly hoping for a second chance. People are in hell because they have the same disposition toward God that they had while they were walking the earth. They do not suddenly, upon entrance into Hell, change their nature and become sanctified. They still hate God. People are in hell for all eternity, not because they floated a stop sign, but because their fists are eternally clinched toward God. They are not calling on His mercy. They are not pleading for a second chance. They are in hell for all eternity because that is where they would rather be. It is their nature. As C.S. Lewis once said, “The doors of hell are locked from the inside.”
Christ, on the other hand, was the second Adam. He did not identify with the first either in disposition or choice. He gained the right to be called the second Adam who would represent His people (Rom. 5:12ff). He is not spending eternity in Hell because he was never infected with the sinful nature which caused him to be at enmity with God. His fist was never clinched toward the heavens.
Will one white-lie send someone to Hell for all eternity? No! To say otherwise trivializes sin and makes God an overly sensitive cosmic torture monger. Sin does send people to Hell. People will be punished for their sins accordingly. But the sin that keeps people in Hell for all eternity is the sin of perpetual rebellion.
84 replies to "Why is Hell Eternal?"
I’m glad you reject the silly, unbiblical notion that “any sin against an infinite God requires an infinite punishment”.
“They are in hell for all eternity because that is where they would rather be.”
You are clearly presupposing that all human beings are intrinsically immortal. This is where you error.
Ron, I would not use the word “intrinsic” to describe immortality. In fact, I would not use “intrinsic” to describe the ability of anything in creation to exist, now or for eternity. God is the only self-existing being, therefore, he must hold all things together, even the lives of the damned for all eternity. No deist understanding here. Confusing? Yes. But confusion does not militate nor speak a word about reality (as we should know after the last 200 years of the “scientific revolution.”)
Yes, of course. You hold to the Christianized version of the immortal soul. My mistake.
So then, you believe that God will grant the wicked immortality?
Do you really mean to say “site of God” rather than “sight of God?”
Very interesting post. I have been taught that a sin against an infinite God requires an infinite punishment for this reason:
The greater the being you sin against, the greater the offense of the sin. OR The more innocent a person you sin against, the greater the offense.
Certainly if a murderer kills a murderer, the sin is not as great as if a murderer kills an innocent young child. In the same vein, a murderer killing a murderer doesn’t seem nearly as bad as a murderer killing a war hero or some person of character and virtue. Since God is certainly infinitely great and completely undeserving of offense, this makes the sin against him infinitely great.
What do you think of this line of reasoning?
“Why is Hell Eternal?”
Because Jesus says it is (Matt. 25:46). But I like your well thought out post. But the feeling I get is that you don’t like to tell people one little sin is enough to keep them from God’s heaven. The truth is, God’s holiness is such that indeed one little sin is enough. Yes, we are children of wrath, but this is because we have inherited a sin nature. So all this to say you’re probably splitting hairs, but so am I by commenting 🙂
“To say otherwise trivializes sin and makes God an overly sensitive cosmic torture monger.”
I think this statement trivializes God’s holiness. It is not wrong for our Creator to punish his creation for even one little sin (Rom. 9:21). We should not shy away from this, that God can do as He wishes with His creation. The question is not why God would send someone to hell for even one little sin, but “why would God save anyone, since we are all born children of wrath?” Why me, why did He choose me? That is what every believer should ask, if they have a deep understand of the Scriptures.
“But the feeling I get is that you don’t like to tell people one little sin is enough to keep them from God’s heaven.”
The feeling? The entire point of his post was to explain why he rejects that idea. You might want to actually interact with his arguments. Just a suggestion.
If thats the case,heavin would be a lonly place,there would be nobody there.Im not joking around, God loves us no mater what. Is that not true?
“So, if Christ were only to take my penalty and if I deserve thousands upon thousands of eternities in hell, why didn’t Christ spend at least one eternity in Hell? Why is it that he was off the Cross in six hours, payment made in full? Combine my sentence with your sentence. Then combine ours with the cumulative sentences of all believers of all time. Yet Christ only suffers for a short time? How do we explain this?”
I know you say you believe in penal substitution, but these questions and this post make is sound an awful lot like you actually believe in the moral government theory or at least the version of it advocated by Roger Olsen.
A word study on ‘hell’ (a comparative state) and ‘eternal’ (primarily about ages – timeframes; and quality of life, not quantity) also supports what you’re saying. In light of this, where is the biblical basis for making a ‘decision’ about God in this life/age? (single verses aside, I thought a such a life-shattering, eternity-in-hell concept would permeate whole paragraphs/chapters/books). I’m not belittling the magnitude or joy of coming to God now, but overemphasis on hell seems wrong (especially an eternal torturous one) and in similar arguments I often see the character and nature of God ignored. God wants us to love our enemies but burns his forever?? It flies in the face of Gods’ character, more than enough to caution narrow, dogmatic views of hell. Shouldn’t the emphasis be about getting people to glimpse the earth-shattering nature of a massive God who IS love, and so being drawn to him? Is it really a one-off decision anyway, or a life-transforming relationship?
I would have to agree that we are in hell eternally because of eternal unbelief. It seems in Luke 16 that Christ leaves us with only 2 choices as to why the rich man is there. His love of money (idolatry), his apathy towards Lazarus (love your neighbor). Notice his view of Lazarus changes while he is in hell (Luke 16:24); he even becomes evangelical towards his brothers (Luke 16:28); but he never once asks God for anything, always Abraham. Although he begs for mercy (from Abraham) and is in anguish, he never repents towards God. He has placed comfort over conversion and continues in this idolatry even in hell. All that may be a stretch for a parable though (LOL).
A very difficult issue.
Eternal concious punishment seems way too harsh for “only” a lifetime of wickedness. Especially since all people’s sins have been paid for. But since God is justice by nature it CAN’T be unjust.
I don’t believe anybody goes to hell because of the common sins like lying, stealing, adultery or gluttoning. (They will bring judgement and a hard heart, though) They go to hell because they are born seperated from God and do not repent and do not believe in Jesus Christ.
Humanly speaking: if you provide a extremely costly way out for a person in a hopeless situation to help them and they reject you, you would get upset and sad about their stubborn and foolish and distrusting hearts.
A friend of mine puts it this way: God respects us as humans so much that he lets us decide if we want to spend eternity with or without him. He doesn’t force people into relationship with him. And the relationship with him makes the difference between eternal glory and…
Careful Mike, you might get Rob Belled.
I totally agree with you, though. Good post.
Hell, a commonly used synonym for what is described in Revelation as the lake of fire and brimstone (though Hell/Hades categorically is said to be cast into the lake of fire, hence not an actually synonym), was fixed long ago by God for Satan and the rebellious Angels:
Matthew 25:41…the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Rev 20:1010 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur…tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Humans are cast into the lake of fire because:
Rev 20:13-15… and they were judged every man according to their works… And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
One sin or many sins is not why we are condemned, we are born sinful and condemned so it isn’t about how many sins. However Matt 11:21-24 does possibly indicate degrees of suffering. But whether guilty of gross sins or lesser sins, all still suffer eternally in the same place.
Hell as a place of anguish, where people constantly rue their situation, seems to fit the descriptions well enough.
Many stripes and few, imply that there are degrees of punishment, but hell is still the location of the rebellious against God.
Jesus, as the personal representative of God, was entitled to Godly levels of honour. The cross represented the ultimate in degradation rituals. The shame heaped on him was commensurate to the dishonour deserved by those who rebel against God. Hence the scales balance.
It seems to me that there is no such thing as “eternal hell for sinners”. The only time “hell” is used in the bible is by Jesus in the synoptics. But the word in the original Greek isn’t “hell” but the name of a landfill outside of Jerusalem. Occasionally the landfill was set on fire, creating a literal “lake of fire”. It was cursed by God in the OT because Israelites sacrified their children to pagan gods there. As such, whenever Jesus uses the term, it is in a parabolic sense.
All other referals to “hell” are actually “hades”. As such, what the bible says is that all people go to “hades” (even good people like the poor man in the Lucan parable) which isn’t necessarily bad, and at the judgement those not saved will be thrown, with “hades”, into the lake of fire. Revelation doesn’t say these people are tortured forever. Since it does say that “satan, the beast and the false prophet” will be tortured forever, the implication is that everyone else, and…
“To say otherwise trivializes sin and makes God an overly sensitive cosmic torture monger.”
Seems to me that God has killed many people in the Bible for what we think are trivial sins.
But worse then that billions were born and destined for an eternity in hell before the foundation of the world. We are born into sin. We inherit sin natures that rule over us. We have no choice but to be in rebellion and we are sent to hell forever because accepting the Gospel was not a real option because God had not chosen us. In fact, the more we hear the Gopspel and reject it, the deeper into torment we are plunged, yet we have no choice in the matter. I think I would rather be judged for sin then judged for something the Judge forced me to do, i.e., rebel against Him.
Al: Who are you oh man to talk back to God?
😀 just kidding
I really resonated with this piece. Thank you for it! My only question/problem is thus: When CS Lewis and others talk about the gates being locked from the inside, and you speak of the never changing the disposition towards God. . . wouldn’t that mean that folks “want” to be there? If, at some level, folks are continuing to “want” to be absent from God, then how is that “torment”? . . . if they are getting what they want? I think there needs to be a little more said about the “conscious” aspect here. . .that people will know that they are in hell and are not satisfied in any way.
Micheal,
I been mulling over this thought lately and I am curious as to how you would respond. As I look at the sacrifice of Christ (1 John 2:2) I see sufficient payment for the sins of mankind. Which leads me to ask, will man spend eternity in hell because of their rejection of Jesus Christ or because of their sin?
Thanks for the thoughts!
There is no hell.
“Biblically” speaking, there is only “eternal life” and “Destruction”. Eternal punishment only means that the punishment is irrevocable, not that conscious souls are tormented eternally. In other words, once the punishment, otherwise known as death, is meted out, there is no chance for eternal life.
This would be what annihilationism is. Life and death. Not Life and Torture.
Re the 6hrs: I’ve wondered about Christs’ suffering and often thought there may be a permanence to it we don’t understand. If God and Jesus are outside of time and they see all across time, all the time (..confusing myself here!) then there may be a sense of continuance from their perspective. Also, I wonder at God and Jesus couched in terms of ‘Father’ and ‘Son’, among other things, was this to offer the only comparison we could grasp? A man killing his only (and beloved) son is the deepest and most enduring sacrifice as far as humans are concerned – and if it’s a comparison, could actually be worse for God! I’m not supporting enduring Hell here (not in the traditional sense) I believe it’s our choice – but a fully informed one! This kind of love and sacrifice tells me that God would allow every soul (at some point) to: fully know what he is like; fully understand what he’s done for us; and accept or reject the path of redemption. How many across human history get that– in this life?
[…] I have a different take then Piper concerning people’s disposition in Hell (see my “Why is Hell Eternal“), I also think he follows the popular (and understandable), yet wrong, conception of what […]
“Nothing impure will ever enter it;, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life." (Rev. 21:27)
Yet Christ only suffers for a short time? How do we explain this?
Does not the infiite and eternal nature of Christ explain this? My crimes no matter how great or small against an infinite and eternal being would require an eternal punishment. Yet Christ can propitiate in 6 hours what I can’t propitiate in hell for eternity because He himself is an infinite and eternal being.
I’m not questioning degrees of sin or degrees of punishment in hell. I would just like to see discussed the fact that Christ possess a divine nature (which we do not) and how that might play into his ability to atone for sins deserving of eternal punishment in such a short amount of time.
Blessings
Very well argued, Michael. I would associate myself with your position here.
I believe in the existence of eternal hell and I believe that humans who hate God will be there.
I am not so confident that it will be a literal “lake” of literal “fire.” Just as I am not so confident that the asphalt of heaven will be literal “clear gold.”
Heaven will be better than we can imagine – but not because of the pretty things. And hell will be worse than we can imagine – but not because its hot. Eternity is all about our situation in relation to God. The beauty of heaven is the glory and favor of God dwelling with the people he created, redeemed, adopted and chose as his bride. There may be many other wonderful things about heaven – but that is its chief wonder! The horror of hell is knowing the superiority & goodness of God but hating him all the same, enduring his presence in judgment, bowing with a contemptuous heart. There may be other awful things about hell – but that is its…
[…] Why is Hell Eternal? […]
[…] key thought I read throughout all of this came from C. Michael Patton who wrote: People are in hell for all eternity, not because they floated a stop sign, but because […]
“Although it may seem unreasonable to us (as depraved as we are), it is fitting for a perfectly holy God who cannot be in the site of sin, no matter how insignificant this sin might seem to us.”
I just don’t get it. Jesus spent more time with sinners than he did the best law keepers to ever live. Wasn’t He “perfectly holy?” Not once did He condemn them either.
Maybe we would be better off if we said that sin can not be in the site of a Holy God. Adam hid; God came looking. He made provisions for sin before the foundations of the World.
I also don’t understand a person, who is given a real choice, that would make a decision to spend eternity apart form a God who in this life he had no way of understanding fully.
I could be wrong.
[…] dfdfdd905a posted about this interesting story. Here is a small section of the postHell, a commonly used synonym for what is described in Revelation as the lake of fire and brimstone (though Hell/Hades categorically is said to be cast into the lake of fire, hence not an actually synonym), was fixed long ago by God for … Rev 20:13-15… and they were judged every man according to their works… And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. One sin or many sins is not why we are condemned, we are born sinful and … […]
[…] Michael Patton’s article on why hell is eternal will be helpful to […]
Michael,
You’re really thinking for yourself. I like that! I agree with much of your reasoning.
I never thought you’d be open to another view of the atonement than the penal substitution view, but after reading this, I bet you would at least consider it. Unfortunately, most seminaries don’t give an honest and vigorous argument for the moral government view, so most people reject a straw man. Finney is just ridiculed and bad arguments shot down.
If you’re open to it, here’s a good teaching on my view of the atonement: http://www.alancoughlin.com/download/#TheAtonement (scroll to the bottom).
That’s just part of the discussion, but it might be a good place to start.
(Thanks for the work you do. You’re doing a good job; keep it up!)
In my journey to honor the first and most important commandment, I’ve been struggling with two issues:
1) That hell is eternal
2) That the bible seems to indicate “most of us” will end up there (e.g., see Matthew 7:13-14, Luke 13:22-30, Romans 11:5, Revelation 12:17)
God created all: humans, the universe, the heavens, and the rules that govern them. The amazing work and death of Christ is astounding and inspiring, but I struggle to understand how God, in his infinite love, crafted the rules such that (1) they give Satan so much control and success (i.e., despite Christ’s sacrifice, Matthew 7:14 seems to indicate that most will end up in hell) and (2) why hell must be eternal.
There are times where I feel like it would be better to have not been born into existence given these risks. I do believe that Christ’s sacrifice wipes away my sin, but it is hard for me to bridge the gap between a loving God and the fact that only a remnant will reach heaven.
Any thoughts or…
Jon, diversity, progression and the whole ‘theme’ of the Bible should aliviate your concerns.
Look at all the diverse thinking on this subject! This tells me we don’t really know. The ‘detail’ on this topic suggests some may be focusing on a ‘conceptual idol’ of God, rather than desiring Him – i.e. a ridged belief system rather than relationship with a hidden and mysterious God. What has God revealed? That he cannot be named and is bigger than our descriptions (and as you note, descriptions of hell describe God). His clearest revelation is Jesus, which is primarily a description of character – via a life of love, acceptance and sacrifice.
Progression relates to God still revealing himself – so we may over time learn more about the afterlife, but I would still focus on what God has revealed.
Finally, if all the wisdom of the Bible could be condensed to 1 word, it would be LOVE. If what you read does not align with God’s revealed character, park it.
Hope this helps.
One point you make I find to not be valid. I don’t think hell is locked from the inside. Christ gave the example of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man clearly did not want to be there nor did he want any of his loved ones to come there either. If he wanted to warn people then surely he didn’t want to be stuck there himself.
This is likely for posterity since such an old post doesn’t likely get much traction. But I think you are striking near the root of something that has gotten its roots into evangelical culture – the notion that the primary reason to be born again is to avoid hell. When hell becomes the focus and avoidance of it the drive, the fleshly man does all he can to avoid it. So when the church cottons on to that approach (even if only in part), how has it not gotten fleshly?
It has been pointed out that Jesus said that it is better to cut off a limb than to have the whole body be sent to hell. But we also read in Matthew’s gospel of an encounter between John the Baptist and the Pharisees in which John asked the Pharisees who warned them to flee from the wrath to come. The implication is that they were doing what they could to avoid judgment. John tells them to bring forth fruits meet for repentance. In other words “change”. Which, as we can all attest to, is impossible to do on our own. Jesus, in John’s gospel said that believing on Him IS doing the work of God (6:28). But it is also clear that no one can believe on Him unless it is given him of the Father (6:44 and 6:65).
In other words, we need to do all we can to avoid God’s punishment, but it is ridiculous to think we can do that without Him. So walking WITH Him is required. As such, unless we are in fellowship with Him and love Him, we cannot be His and are under judgment. But once we are His, how ridiculous is the assertion that the main reason for following Him is to escape judgment. It places one’s relationship with God on a par with a lawyer-client. Jesus IS our lawyer (“advocate with the Father”) but how many clients call their lawyers “Abba”?
So in my view, the debate over the nature of hell is evidence of a distorted understanding of the Father’s will and of His love.
What is meant by people “hate” god? If the presupposition that there is no god is assumed, then is it really possible to “hate” god? And maybe there is an aspect of god that is hated but is this really classified as “hate” toward god?
Daniel, maybe the word hate is misleading. It insinuates an emotional response to God and although unbelievers have an emotional response to God, that response may not seem as strong to the unbeliever as the word hate indicates. It might be that opposes or enmity describes the response better. Also, it may be misunderstood that it is Gods existence which is opposed (hated), and although it may be, it is more likely that it is His Godliness or authority which is opposed. Finally, it is not the presupposition of no god which is assumed, but it is in fact the opposite. Historically, Christians assume that all people know there is a God whether they embrace that knowledge or not. In fact, it is that failure to embrace the knowledge of Gods existence which brings us back to square one of my comment to you.
Donnie,
Someone who is unaware of the existence of a deity cannot really make a decision to oppose such a deity. The Christian position as to whether or not all people are aware of this deity is simply untrue. Many people can walk around their whole lives feeling absolutely nothing in regard to a deity because they are completely unaware of its existence. Yes, there are people who are simply unaware that there is a god.
Daniel,
You are viewing this from the atheistic position of the presupposition that there is no God. Obviously you cannot hate something that does not exist. The issue is that God does not view it this way, He knows that He exists and that you should know that He exists. See Romans 1:18-23. According to God, the Christian position is the correct position. Obviously this is the point where it requires a complete shift in mindset to get it.
I see your viewpoint in your objection, but to those who hold that the Bible is the Word of God and 2 Timothy 3:16 the viewpoint that you are referring to is the correct viewpoint. I hope that answers your question. Let me know if I need to clarify something in this for you and I will try my best to do so.
Chad,
You are going to have an incredibly difficult time convincing me that Rom. 1:18-23 isn’t anything other than Paul’s ad hominem attack on the pagans in his day. Let’s get one thing correct – the pagans had their gods explaining how everything got here. They would not have been convinced by an argument for Yahweh’s existence simply by a guy who said that his god was revealed in creation.
Daniel,
I did not suggest that the pagans at that time would have been convinced of God’s existence purely because of Romans 1:18-23. I was giving you the perspective you asked for in relation to how God views unbelievers. You asked essentially how can you hate God if you don’t know that God exists. My point is that according to Scripture, God has made Himself known to all through natural revelation.
It should be obvious that Paul’s reasoning was not such that it converted everyone in the area, but was an explanation to the church in Rome as to why God can find fault with those who do not believe. Paul was not writing this epistle to convert unbelievers, but for doctrinal instruction and correction to the church in Rome.
Your viewpoint is man-centered while Paul is arguing a God-centered view. I did not present the text as a way to change your mind, but rather to let you see what the opposing view is and where it is supported in Scripture and let the Spirit do what only the Spirit can do in your life. I hope that clears things up, but if it doesn’t let me know.
Chad,
Okay…that’s the Christian position. But there is no evidence to uphold that position whatsoever. So naturally, people like me do not maintain that position.
Daniel,
That would really get more into the conversation of what you would consider evidence. Do you have some idea of what evidence would lead you to conclude that it is reasonable to assume the Christian position?
I know that atheists do not hold that position, but do you find it as a lack of any evidence altogether? Or do you hold the position that the Bible and any evidence from historical accounts therein or corroborated therein are not convincing evidence? Obviously believers would argue that there exists strong evidence to conclude that God is indeed true, holy, and good.
So I guess, since more or less my response to your original question has been it is a matter of perspective, yours or God’s, what is the heart of your question? What information are you trying to gain from queries in this direction? If it is merely an understanding of the Christian position, then I am happy to try my best to oblige with what information I know.
It truly appears from your other posts that you are seeking, or being wooed (matter of perspective). Hopefully you will continue to stay engaged. Not everything in Christianity is easily understood, or even quickly understandable upon conversion. It truly is quite a learning curve and a long experience and I know that I am still rapidly learning, and pray and hope to learn more. So, if there is something I can help you understand, please ask and I will try.
Chad,
It depends on your biases. I do not see much evidence for Christianity though. Maybe if someone were to present a validified case for Christianity that doesn’t attack its opponents or group them in a hole.
Chad Dougless: “It truly appears from your other posts that you are seeking, or being wooed (matter of perspective).”
Daniel, is that true that you are seeking God?
Is that why you are posting on a Christian blog?
I would definitely like to see if your religion holds value, yes. So I guess I am a seeker.
#46, Daniel.
If you can, can you elucidate a bit more on what you consider to be “value” from your phrase “see if your religion holds value”?
CMP, da Master of Ceremonies: “Hell not is filled with people who are crying out for God’s mercy, constantly hoping for a second chance. People are in hell because they have the same disposition toward God that they had while they were walking the earth. They do not suddenly, upon entrance into Hell, change their nature and become sanctified. They still hate God. People are in hell for all eternity, not because they floated a stop sign, but because their fists are eternally clinched toward God. They are not calling on His mercy. They are not pleading for a second chance. They are in hell for all eternity because that is where they would rather be.”
I am finding this to be a very helpful epiphany. Thanks Michael. Thanks much. I most certainly did imagine Hell as a place where miserable, agonizing, tormented people are begging, asking, crying out for mercy and a second chance to bow their knee and confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
But if these folks are not repentant and they are where they want to be (which is utterly inconceivable to me), then what else can be said?
Daniel,
I would like to address this comment, “Maybe if someone were to present a validified case for Christianity that doesn’t attack its opponents or group them in a hole.” Usually, people come to this conclusion for a few different reasons: 1) Pride, as in I am a moral person and I know moral people, how can you say bad things about us; 2) Stupid Christians, as in the people who focus on one particular sin and elevate it to a level where it appears that committing that one sin is the path to hell (see rants against homosexuality); 3) Lack of information about what the true Christian position is.
The true Christian position is that without Christ, we are ALL headed straight to hell for our sins of co-mission (doing things we shouldn’t) or omission (not doing things we should). It is through Christ that we are granted the atonement for the righteous punishment we deserve for these sins. God grants faith to us and we become His.
I have gotten the impression that you have been turned off by the stupid Christian section of the faith, and I am sorry that you have had to interact with the overzealous types. I do not believe there is a sin that cannot be covered by the blood of Christ on the cross. That does not mean that I condone sin, but a believer would be the pinnacle of hypocrisy to believe that they can continue in unrepentant sin or that they are only committing the “small ones” so that makes it OK.
Hopefully that can preempt some of your questions, but it may have opened up a few more avenues of inquiry for you. I will continue to pray for you to find the answers you seek, which are found in Christ.
By value, I mean “meaning”. Does Christianity afford any “meaning” for me than simply just a “ticket out of Hell” and a “sin covered free” card?
I have studied various different Christian positions. Unfortunately, every single Christian who holds to each position all say that theirs is the correct one. There is a debate on here between Robert Bowman and David Burke that I would like to critique but not here.
If Christianity is simply just a “get out of Hell free” card as you seem to make it sound, Chad, then I don’t think there is really any “value” or “meaning” to Christianity. I mean is this the only reason you are a Christian? Because without Christ, you’d be heading to Hell? This is something that many atheists critique Christians on.
Given, I do admit that is mostly because of stupid Christians who elevate a particular sin but I have also studied that the Anglican Church is divided as to whether homosexuality is really even a sin or not. I understand this conflicts with the views of some Christians, but I think I would have to agree with the Anglicans who say it is not a sin then the Anglicans that say it is a sin.