Warning: this post may not be suitable for younger audiences.
I have often heard it said that Adam and Eve had perfect fellowship with God for a long period of time before the fall. Some say years. Some even say that it could have been hundreds of years. Some say that they walked with God in the cool of the garden for an unknowable amount of time and were, because of this, the most educated and perfect beings the planet has ever known.
Nope. Can’t be. I say that the fall happened within 45min of creation.
That is right. I believe that the fall occurred 45 minutes after the creation of Eve. At the very most, I will give it a month—but that is pushing it.
First, a few things to make clear. 1) This is a part of the “fringe” series (look at the category placement). This is devoted to those questions that we don’t really have answers for. Most of the time, they are pure speculation. Most importantly, they don’t in any way contribute to essential (or even important) doctrine. No reason to split your church over this one. We are just having some fun. 2) I am assuming that Adam and Eve were real people specially created by God, not mythological accommodations. If you don’t agree, then this “fringe” post will be an even greater waste of time than it already is!
Okay, why do I believe that the fall happened so quickly? Children, cover your ears . . . sex.
Let me back up. It is hard to tell how long it was after God made Adam that he made Eve. Of course if you are a literal seven-day-creation advocate, you don’t have a problem giving an answer. It was the same day (Gen. 1:26-27). If you are a day-ager, then the sixth “day” on which Adam and Eve were created could have been a very long time. You know, that animal naming thing. Lots of animals. Lots of names (Gen. 2:19-20). Lots of time needed. However, I think that the animal naming exercise was rhetorical rather than expedient. In other words, I don’t think Adam named every species there is. He just named a lot. The exercise was to instigate in Adam a realization that he lacked something—he lacked a “helper.” It was not because God needed him to name every single species (even though there is a lesson there as well, but I won’t go there). Therefore, I think he could have finished in a couple of hours. All of this to say that I believe that God created Adam and Eve on the same day. (Even though this is not essential to my 45min proposal.)
Now for the next step to my the-fall-happened-in-forty-five-minutes-no-longer-than-a-month-theory. Adam and Eve were perfect. They were without sin upon creation. If God gave them a command, they would obey. Adam has just named all the animals. He is thinking to himself This stinks. There is no one who I can have fellowship with and love. At least not in the way that fulfills this lack within me. God’s purpose is done. The itch has been created. Adam knows he needs someone, but he is not sure what. There is not even the concept of a “woman” in Adam’s mind.
Adam goes to sleep.
God does minor out-patient surgery, removing a rib.
God creates the woman.
Adam wakes up.
Adam sees the woman.
The woman is naked.
Adam has feelings he has never felt before (at least in the last twelve hours or so).
Adam sings a song that no one in the history of the world (not even Johnny Cash) has sought to remake.
The chorus of the song is “She is perfect.”
God gives one command: “Have sex.” Ahem…”Be fruitful and multiply . . .” (Gen. 1:28).
Adam thinks: “Have sex.”
Eve thinks “Be fruitful.”
At this point, we have a few options:
1. They said, “Nah…thanks but no thanks.”
But they were perfect. This would have been the sin of disobedience that led to the fall, not the eating of the fruit.
2. They said, “Maybe in a year or so…”
But Eve was naked. I could conceive of Eve saying “not tonight . . . this year, maybe next. But what excuse would she have had? No fall = no headaches. Plus, you have that command issue. When does procrastinating a direct command of God become sin?
3. They—and I mean that day—have sex and become “one flesh” or one family in attempt to multiply.
I go with number three. However, I have an issue. I don’t know what the female baby-making clock was like before the fall, but I imagine that the cycles were much like they are now, only perfect. I don’t think there would have been any problem on Adam’s end or Eve’s end in making a baby. Therefore, conception would have happened very quickly. Sometime that month at the latest. But my real issue is that there could not have been conception before the fall. Otherwise, we would have a race of beings that were born outside of the Adamic sin. You see, we are all called children of Adam (Rom. 5) and therefore children of the fall. The entire human race, every man and every woman are from fallen ancestors. Adam and Eve did not have any children outside of sin. Therefore, the conception of the first child came after they ate the apple.
So, here is my scenario:
God creates Eve. (7:59am)
God commands Adam and Eve to multiply. (8:00am)
They concede to this command, but don’t act yet on it. (8:01am)
They tour the Garden getting to know each other a bit. (8:02-8:40am)
Adam gets anxious. (7:59-8:40am)
Eve plays coy. (7:58-8:40am)
Adam shows her the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (8:41am)
Satan tempts Eve. (8:42am)
Adam does nothing (maybe he has something else on his mind?). (8:42am)
Eve eats the fruit. (8:43am)
Adam eats the fruit. (8:44am)
The fall is complete 45 minutes after the creation of Eve.
Adam and Eve finally have sex for the first time (9:02-9:04am)
While I have had some fun with this post and while most of it is very speculative, I do believe that the fall happened very quickly due to the command to multiply and the reality that there was no one conceived outside of sin. At the most, I would give it a month so that the time for Eve to conceive would cover the cycle.
What do you think?
81 replies to "Why I Believe Adam and Eve Fell Within 45 Minutes (Warning: PG-13)"
Hmmm…timeline.
God commands sex at 8:00 and they obey then and there
By 8:02 they are touring the garden.
2 minutes.
Was Eve still convinced he was the perfect man?
You’re back on the Vicodin again, eh, Michael? 🙂
That was fun. I was wondering if you had any thoughts on how long they would have held out without the command…:) Another 30 seconds…or rather subtract the time it took to receive the command.
Lolll Eric.
Dave. You will notice that the concession was not the act which did not happen until 9:02-9:04am.
True Tom. No command necessary!
CMP –
What of those who see the early chapters of Genesis in the ‘myth’ category? Not that they are false, but more in the true sense of the word, myth, as Peter Enns, the BioLogos scholar, explains in his book, Inspiration and Incarnation:
🙂
Ah, yes. How did I miss that? I guess I couldn’t imagine Adam waiting. She was the perfect woman, after all. But you do observe he was getting anxious. Very believeable.
Sad to think that even Adam and Eve did not get to experience a pre-fall, uncorrupted encounter.
Scott, they would not think this post very helpful 🙂
I have never been convinced of the myth hermeneutic. It is about as stable as the allegory hermeneutic!
Genesis makes mention of sons of God. They could have been conceived before the fall.
Sam, yes, and that explains why I am so perfect…I am of that line.
One problem – Scripture seems to indicate the fall occurred after the 7th day was completed, because the 7th day was still good.
Genesis 2:3 (AMP)
3 And God blessed (spoke good of) the seventh day, set it apart as His own, and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all His work which He had created and done.
Remember the days started in the evening – so Genesis 3:8 would have been the 7th day.
Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and it was very good. Evening came and then morning: the sixth day.
Genesis 3:8
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and they hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
My personal speculation is that they were tested 40 days – which would parallel the first Adam and the second Adam.
I think Genesis 4:1 does not indicate the first time they were intimate, but the first time their intimacy resulted in conception. God could have prevented conception until the time of testing was over.
Perhaps this could also explain why they didn’t take and eat of the tree of life and live forever since it wasn’t forbidden. Darn, if they only would have eaten from that tree first.
So lets see you’ve got the most beautiful, perfect woman ever created and God has just personally given you the green light to get it on?? and Adam waits over an hour?? Really?? Isn’t that like not consummating the marriage on the wedding night?
Dave, the tree of life seems to require continual eating to have the desired effect. That is why it is back in Rev 20 where it is described as being for the “healing” of people.
So what? Does it matter how long?
Richard,
No. Just speculation that does not really make any difference. That is why I said that in the post. Did you read it?
Is ‘9:02-9:04’ the duration or a guess at the start time?
Duration. Told you…pg-13 going on here.
Hey, if that’s duration, my original point still works! Oh….wait…Adam was fallen by then.
This is hilarious. A take on it I had never thought of before. I’m not sure I’d buy into the basic premise that the fall would have to had occurred before conception though. If the sins of the fathers are visited on the sons, do those sins have to be post-conception?
Daniel
Dave, your right. It is an unspoken plight of the fall.
Just some random thoughts.
1. If lifespans back then really were 900 years is it possible that the monthly cycles were longer too thereby making it less likely that sex would result in offspring.
2. There is no evidence that Adam or Eve were told the relationship between the monthly cycle and fertility and one month on Earth would not have been enough time to figure it out on their own. Thus it may have just been a hit or miss type thing. Furthermore even having sexual intercourse at the most fertile point in a women’s cycle does not always result in pregnancy. The odds are just higher. Now I guess you could say that this is a result of the fall, and pre-fall sex always resulted in pregnancy, but that is just speculation heaped on top of speculation and further assumes that procreation is the only reason for sex (something that most Protestants, though not all, reject).
So are you saying that in the New heavens and new Earth there will be a need for continuous healing?
Now Dave If I may ask how long was a day in that era of creation? Is the day still as long a we have it today? The I guess that will put a spanner in the works with regard to your time frame.
Sam, the leaves are for the “healing of the nations” for some reason. Not sure how to interpret it, but I would say that the tree of life is what sustains (i.e. heals) our bodies on the new earth.
Dave V. on 13 Sep 2010 at 12:30 pm #
Perhaps this could also explain why they didn’t take and eat of the tree of life and live forever since it wasn’t forbidden. Darn, if they only would have eaten from that tree first.
C Michael Patton on 13 Sep 2010 at 12:58 pm #
Dave, the tree of life seems to require continual eating to have the desired effect. That is why it is back in Rev 20 where it is described as being for the “healing” of people.
“Seems” to require continual eating? To stay with this theme, maybe Adam and Eve had to eat one every 45 minute;-) Get me a bucket! Rev. 22 talks about the leaves healing but not the fruit of the tree. It does “seem” rather apparent in Gen. 3:22 that if Adam did stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, he would live forever.
Since Adam and Eve were in a pre-fallen state…their physical bodies were at their glorious peak, their first and probably only one session of sex in the garden of Eden would have taken days or weeks to complete! 🙂
…not to mention, a pre-fallen org*sm would have lasted hours or even days…
Seems like a pretty fair suggestion. Luther similarly proposed that the fall happened pretty quickly, though he envisioned it happening on the seventh day (Luther’s Works 1:81, commenting on Genesis 2:3).
Well there is the old argument that the gaining of knowledge upon eating the fruit was the act of sex. So there’s that.
Of course, this is all on the assumption that Adam felt he was so imperfect without a partner that he just dived right in when she was made.
It assumes that the innocence spoken of does not refer to their sexuality, and therefore, that they had sex before the statement made in 4:1.
It assumes, from another perspective, that the trees don’t represent goals of the sexual act themselves, rather than being actual trees and fruit.
It assumes that Genesis 1-3 is meant to be a depiction of time rather than a presentation of theology, etc., etc.
But it was funny. Next topic should be whether the serpent had five legs or two before he was sent on his belly.
As I suspected: All (almost all) male commenters on this one.
Always wondered this:
Everyone seems to forget that satan became a serpent when God decreed it after the fall. It is said he was the beautiful angel in heaven. So why would Eve go for a snake prior to the fall, or even go near one, because most of us women are scared to death of them.
So if was about sexual sin, or sexuality in general, and God blesses marital sex, and Adam and Eve were the first married, what is this discussion even about?
Not funny to me as a woman, more like a guys locker room discussion.
I like how Eve was playing coy before she was created. Nice.
Good observation on part of the women. We are all reading this through the lens of how we would react. If Adam had never seen a lady before, and she appears before him, i think he would be more curious first then just think of sex.
This could serve as a good lesson to how we read the scriptures through our own distorted lenses. I have been of late leaning towards that the first creation story is a theological description of the world. No where in the Bible do we see people talking of the creation story and wondering how long it took. Their application of the story was that God created the world or that there should be no divorce. The author of Hebrews even talks of the 7th day as though no man has entered it. So i think there is a lot more to the creation story and this speculation of time is a mere distraction.
Adam gets anxious. (7:59-8:40am)
Eve plays coy. (7:58-8:40am)
Um, wouldn’t that be behavior compatible with after the fall?
Sorry folks, but I don’t see the humor in this thread either. I must say I agree with mbaker when she compared this conversation to a locker room discussion.
Actually, I thought the post and the ensuing comments were pretty funny. Maybe that explains why I’m still single 🙁
Way too fast. Especially being perfect they would not be as caught up with the hormonal tune as we are today.
At #39:
The discussion of sexuality in theology should not be made light of. This sounds to me like a sarcastic religious reply to women’s lib, but not a very subtle one. Sorry, if all men can’t see that a Christians woman’s physical beauty was/is the defining factor then they need to get over it or just go for a secular woman. Sex is always there for the asking for anyone who believes that’s what it’s all about.
Christianity was and is about spiritual beauty in the Lord, in both sexes Anyone who can’t see that is doomed to failure in their relationships.
mbaker said:
Everyone seems to forget that satan became a serpent when God decreed it after the fall. It is said he was the beautiful angel in heaven. So why would Eve go for a snake prior to the fall, or even go near one, because most of us women are scared to death of them.
So if was about sexual sin, or sexuality in general, and God blesses marital sex, and Adam and Eve were the first married, what is this discussion even about?
Three things here:
1) Satan did not *become* the serpent but rather used the serpent for his purposes and this happened not after our fall but rather after the angelic fall.
2) I don’t believe there was any *fear factor* between people (or women) and animals at the time prior to the fall of mankind. To this I refer to Gen 3:15 (which is after Adam & Eve ate of the fruit of Knowledge of Good & Evil): “And I will put enmity between between you (speaking to the serpent) and the woman, and between your seed and her seed…”
3) Finally, I believe as CMP indicated at the beginning, this is a speculation of the *fall of mankind*, not just men or women or sex in and of itself. I think the point of the discussion is just that and should not be missed. Cmp’s point about Adam possibly being driven by the *sexual* urge and thus contributing to the fall is still a valid point as that *urge* apart from God’s supervision or authority can lead to disaster. I think that Adam felt that Eve, being a special creation, his counterpart, if you will, could possibly have led to him acting on his own ageanda, as it were when Eve ate of the forbidden fruit and thus sinned with her so as not to experience separation from her, whom he had just found.
What do you think?
And Christians wonder why non-Christians take their claims of “spiritual mindedness” with such incredulity…
…As a group of grown men giddily chime in to speculate on a “reality” where a perfect man and woman run around nude, outdoors, being commanded by a deity to have sex (and don’t forget, get the woman pregnant to “multiply”)…
And then this is sold as theology? (Even a non-theologian, vaguely familiar with the Torah, would quickly notice the father-son records in Genesis show no births in Adamic lineage for decades after “creation”.)
Cute. But…
Didn’t God open Sarah’s womb when He saw fit to do so? Was God only able to act on Sarah’s womb because it was post Fall, or is there another (better?) reason? Was Eve’s womb somehow different in how God was able to act upon it?
More importantly: What/Who is the ultimate determining factor in procreation? Man and sex or God?
The reason I ask is simply because, as cute as the post is (especially that Eve was coy before being created), the premise seems to assume that procreation is ultimately determined by the effectiveness of intercourse instead of the guiding and sustaining power of the Creator determining the timing and result of said intercourse.
Why was Eve talking to a strange serpent? Perhaps she may have felt a little neglected by Adam:
Eve: “Adam, you didn’t even notice that I changed my hairstyle. You’re too busy naming animals!”
mbaker and Susan:
What is humorous to me about the post is that it reminds me of all of the absurd speculations I would get in Sunday School when teaching these passages. It’s exactly what people do. They speculate, force their ideas on the text, and ask questions that the text was never meant to answer.
Hodge,
Exactly.
I’m so glad you said that, Hodge! Right now our Sunday School class is going through the book of John. We spend so much time speculating and intellectualizing over minutia in our discussions that the straightforward meaning of the text is lost. A visitor to our church came into the bookstore at church where I was conversing with friends and made that comment about the class he had just sat through. I knew immediately which class he was talking about. It’s the class which draws the young and ‘intellectually minded’. It saddens me to see the heart of the gospel lost. It becomes an exercise in who can make the most profound observations. Arrogant foolishness?
Sorry to get serious , and I am not sure I understood Mbaker’s statement on beauty, be it external or internal. (I think in perfection the two would be inseparable.) But this remains for me, one of the most beautiful passages ever penned by human hand.
Under his forming hands a Creature grew
Manlike but different sex, so lovely fair,
That what seemed fair in all the world seem’d now
Mean, or in her summ’d up, in her contained
And in her looks, from that time infused
Sweetness into my heart unfelt before,
And into all things from her Air inspir’d
The spirit of love and amorous delight.
She disappeared and left me dark, I wak’d
To find her, or forever to deplore
Her loss, and other pleasures all abjure
When out of hope, behold her not far off,
Such as I saw her in my dream adorn’d
With what all Earth or Heaven could bestow
To make her amiable: On she came
Led by her heav’nly maker, though unseen
And guided by His voice, nor uninform’d
Of nuptial Sanctity and marital Rights:
Grace was in all her steps, and Heav’n in her Eye
And every gesture dignity and love.
John Milton – Paradise Lost. (sliver)
CMP –
I think you would really enjoy engaging with the video resources page over at BioLogos (http://biologos.org/resources/conversations) and books like Peter Enns’, Inspiration and Incarnation. Solid evangelical is Enns, but his book is extremely helpful in engaging with some of the issues surrounding things like the early chapters of Genesis.