Why Even Bother Going to Church?

Dang… I was hoping they were your comments, then I could justify lack of church attendance with a resounding “Hey, Michael Patton doesn’t like church either!”

😉

Damian

LOL…well, I do think that they are good observation bringing up questions that most people cannot answer beyond their own traditional emotions.

These are serious issues of practical ecclesiology that need to be dealt with.

Meeting with fellow Christians at a Church building teaches a VERY important lesson to Christians…

It teaches us how to love one another.

Life with other humans is a very messy affair. Combining two or more sinners (either regenerate or un-regenerate) together for longer than a minute is bound to cause tension.

If we come together under the “roof” of Scripture, we are able to hold each other accountable and learn to love someone other than ourself in a Godly, agape way.

Outside of Christian fellowship, this cannot be learned. You cannot learn without at least some practical correction.

You cannot lose the selfish “I” in your life and become the servant a Christian is supposed to be by flying solo. There is no support and encouragement and there is no accountability by going solo.

How can you follow the example of the Bereans in Acts 17:10 if you do not have other believers you can go to on a regular basis to be sure that what you have been taught or have read is correct.

This also seems to raise the question of whether cyber churches are viable churches.

And Saturday evening services for those who don’t want to get up Sunday morning. Where does that fall?

I think that it is important for us not to this that we have a slam dunk answer. This is more significant than most give it credit for.

Hi Jason, sticking with my theme I would say a “cyber church” is every bit as viable as a “cyber marriage”.

Meeting on Sunday morning on the other hand is just a cultural norm. If Saturday night is the best time for everyone, then, great!

Eric commented: “There is no support and encouragement and there is no accountability by going solo.”

What do you do when you find that it has been more discouraging than encouraging to go to church? And that the support offered there is often so much less than what you get outside of the church when it comes to the practical matters of life that it, quite frankly, stinks?

It is discouraging to go when every Sunday you have to sit and listen extremely carefully to what is being said because you know that there is likely to be some unbiblical ideas being promoted and you don’t want to get caught off gaurd and get caught up in it. (Been there, done that). It starts to feel like every meal you sit down to is a meal of boney fish that you have to sort through very carefully to keep from getting hurt. I’ve been in these situations way too much in the past years.

What do you do if a Pastor tells irreverent jokes that make you just want to cringe? After a few of those, you don’t want to go back and face having to deal with that again.

What do you do if you firmly believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still supposed to be in operation today and you seem to be faced with two choices in churches in your area: either a church that thinks the gifts all ceased with the apostles (although God can still do a miracle if He so chooses), or churches that believe in the gifts but also get way into a lot of extra Biblical or even unbiblical stuff along with it?

How do you deal with the fact that when there is a death in the family, it is barely acknowledged by your church family? Or when you have a major crisis (like your home being surrounded by flood waters from an overflowing creek) and the folks at your church don’t even bother to call and ask how things are going, much less offer to show up to help? And that is after it was put on the prayer chain in early morning hours so you would think they would know about it.

And yes, I have been approached more than once by someone that makes me feel like I am committing a mortal sin because I am not going to church at this time. And he said we all need the support and encouragement!

I think Eric has a good point about learning to love and fellowship, but I don’t think it necessitates a church building. What it does require, though is a real cross-section of the local Christians. And by this definition, even some churches fail to be churches—they attract and serve only the white collar families of their neighborhood, or only the families of a given race. But wherever the earliest churches met, Paul was able to speak of Jews Gentiles Scythians Men Women Slave Free, and all were to fellowship.

If the people are rude and hurried at your church you should go to try and be unhurried and polite.

Actually the sermons aren’t really all that great most places. Just like the music isn’t so great at a lot of places. But you are going to contribute to worship, not to be entertained.

Fellowship–yeah again, you and your friends probably don’t constitute a real cross section of local believers. You won’t be able to see that the body of Christ really is more than just a social network or a group of people who feel comfortable together. The church doesn’t gather around friendship or even fellowship; you gather around Christ, you get offended by some of the company he keeps and then you look in the mirror and wonder why He let you in.

Taking the lord’s table — true we don’t have to do it in a church building and really there’s nothing in the Bible about needing pastors or about how often we should take it. Just follow your church’s tradition. If you don’t you’re only contributing to the coming collapse of Evangelicalism 🙂

Giving–you hate your pastor that much? If you can’t give to your local church, then you should quit your job and go into ministry yourself 🙂

Don’t let anyone judge you by whether you go to church. Let them judge you by whether you love those other believers at your church–even the ones who judge you for coming every other week because your conscience permits you to work on some Sundays.

Legalism, tradition, good habits. People just can’t tell the difference anymore. (I blame it mainly on John Mayer.) Look, you and your friends are like a pile of eyeballs sitting in a room playing Xbox or drinking coffee or whatever it is all eyeballs like to do. Sure you’re all different color eyeballs and we applaud your diversity, but don’t kid yourselves. Us feet are sittin over here together talking about how much we love Dr Scholl’s. Don’t go to church to be legalistic and earn God’s favor. Go to church because you’re an eyeball that wants to be part of the grace that Jesus pours out on us smelly feet.

In sum, I don’t think a particular building is required, it just makes getting together easier. And for some of our ideas/attitudes about church (should I go on Sunday or Saturday? Do I have to rest all day? What is rest?), it might be helpful to give some credence to the authority of tradition or at least traditional interpretations of certain prooftexts.

Hardly a final word, but CMP asked how we’d respond.

As an alternative response, when someone gives one of the above opinions you could just start crying, tell them you hate them and they’re not your friend anymore and then run away. At least they’ll know you took them seriously.

Cheryl, you sound like someone who is deeply interested in spiritual maturity and hearing the word preached. That is great! But you have some tough questions about what to do when find that your church is flawed and imperfect.

I go back to apostles like Peter and Paul on this. What did they do when they encountered less-than-perfect churches? Why, they went right to work! Sometimes rebuking, sometimes teaching, sometimes modelling, but always working to build up. That’s because they truly loved people, especially believers, with the same love Christ showed to them.

So what does that mean when, say, a pastor says something off-key? If you love your pastor that means you’re concerned for his spiritual growth too. Send him a short note to him that you appreciated his message on points X and Y (setting aside point Z for now). Take the opportunity to meet with him and and get to know him so you can say, “do you think that was appropriate?” without coming off as suspicious or arrogant.

It’s very unfortunate when your church leaders don’t seem to care about your problems. After all they have a heavy burden of their own. So you can help them to help you by specifically asking for a visit instead of hoping they will know what to do. They may not know how best to support you.

I hope this gives you some ideas Cheryl and I’m praying for you.

Most of the comments so far which argue that “going to church” is important seem to be missing the thrust of the statements which CMP is reporting, which is that the church *building* is not important.

I wouldn’t phrase the question myself as “Why even bother going to church?” but rather “Does having a church building help or hinder us in being the church?”

I would argue in fact that the church *building* as we have it now in the US is often a hindrance to accomplishing what God wants that church (local group of believers) to do.

It is often a hindrance because it consumes vast resources (time and money) in utilities, repairs, maintenance, cleaning, etc. The smallish church I attend expends nearly half its budget on the church building.

It is often a hindrance because it can communicate this idea: this location is the God-space, the places you are in the remainder of the week are the not-God-space.

It is often a hindrance because it can reinforce the consumerism of treating the church as a purveyor of religious goods and services.

I say these things without meaning to imply that these things can’t also happen in a church which doesn’t use a distinct building, but I believe they are real and serious.

Kaff,

“I go back to apostles like Peter and Paul on this. What did they do when they encountered less-than-perfect churches? Why, they went right to work! Sometimes rebuking, sometimes teaching, sometimes modelling, but always working to build up. That’s because they truly loved people, especially believers, with the same love Christ showed to them.”

Does this assume some type of church building or a church entity that you “go to”?

Can church be something that is done and not something that you “go to”?

Well, Michael, when people meet regularly and intentionally I’ve noticed they usually find it convenient to do it under a roof of some kind. That way, when it rains, they don’t get so wet. So, yes I suppose a “building” is necessarily implied 🙂

How can anything be “done” without “going to” the appropriate place for it? When the church needed to “do” something for Peter who was facing execution what did they do? They gathered together in the house of Mary and were praying (Acts 12:12).

If dirt poor 1st c. Jerusalem persecuted Jewish Christians could hack it? Then us with our cars and roads and money and everything, maybe we can manage too? 🙂

cheryl u-

I am saying a prayer for you right now. May God give you wisdom and grace and supply a true means of encouragement for you.

I’m not George Barna, but I suspect a majority of churches are somewhat dysfunctional. Like family, you don’t really get to pick ’em (even though some churches may make it seem like you can). But the idea is to really love them and stay as close as you can. Just like in a family, at a certain point abuse may force you to leave at least for a while. Misunderstandings and disagreements are often part of life, but persistent theological abuse or emotional abuse are not something you should take on alone at a new church. For this reason, I’d say if you feel you’ve been lead into false teaching or just bad teaching, and that the church is committed to continuing that approach, then I’d say that’s probably the one to avoid. If you have Christian friends who are not at either of those churches, be sure to keep in touch and let them help you discern the best path.

I’m sure others here will pray for you and offer more and better suggestions.

Kaff,

Not to disagree generally but to keep this going in the way one might respond and to try to get to the essence of the issue:

You said:
“Well, Michael, when people meet regularly and intentionally I’ve noticed they usually find it convenient to do it under a roof of some kind. That way, when it rains, they don’t get so wet. So, yes I suppose a “building” is necessarily implied :)”

I don’t know about that. I can “gather” together with people over the phone, internet, in a car, at Starbucks, or, as some friends of mine have done, at a bar.

I think the issue is not so much about four walls, but four wall called a “church.” Can church be done, not gone to?

Jonathon,

I often reflect on the proportion of my tithe goes to building up keep AND all the programs that are set up such that they benefit the congregants only – the customers.

On the other hand, I also think that having a “God space” may be valid. It can help focus the mind toward worship, toward a mind set of putting aside everything but the act of worship. There are people who can achieve this anywhere, but there are those who benefit.

Unfortunately, most of the these sanctuaries, supposedly built to the glory of God, are ruined by people bringing in coffee cups, congregations applauding (!) soloists as if they are in a concert hall instead of witnessing an offering to God, ministers telling college football jokes, announcements about Aerobics classes immediately before the Lord’s Prayer or the dismissal congregants before the closing hymn and benediction if they have something “important to do for Sunday school.”

That’s my little rant. As I bemoan in my own blog, maybe it’s the Episcopalian in me. Worship space matters. Joseph Campbell talks about how the actions we take during our Sunday rites occupy the same “ceremonial space” as all other such rites back through time. Was Jesus acknowledging this explicitly when he commanded “do this in remembrance of me?” This concept resonates with me and I don’t think it can be dismissed out of hand.

Do you all think there are legitimate situations where their may be a “church” in town, but it is so disfunctional, doctrinal or otherwise, that would cause you to not ever “go to” church? If so, could you “do” church without “going”?

All churches are dysfunctional. They have sinners in them. Burn the tares and you burn the wheat too!

I’ll say this to your question, Michael:

Join a church if it claims to follow the faith as taught by the apostles and administers baptism and the supper, in His name. If there was really no such thing I would strongly consider moving somewhere one could be found.

Leave when they kick you out on account of your consistent, loving, whole-hearted gospel witness.

Michael, why do you have to do this to me!

Most of your points hit home. I got to church (most of the time) because I’m supposed to. (and because my worship life is the weakest part of my “Christian Walk”…well that and my prayer life….and …..)

But I rarely leave feeling like I worshipped God. Mostly I listened to some songs and a sermon that may or may not have been good, useful or biblically based. Spiritual growth seems to happen outside the church with books and audio lectures and prayer (not often enough, I admit) and small groups. My pastor is actually pretty good and gives some good sermons….but even still I am usually yelling inside for him to make his pioint and then relate it to the Gospel.

Mostly church seems like a place for “once a week” Christians to check off their to-do list. Somehow the building across town that you visit once per week allows you to compartmentalize Christianity into something that only happens there.

The problem is simple: Sola Scriptura.

Sola Scriptura watered down and practically invalidated virtually every Christian doctrine because each person decides what is and is not important.

Thus when it comes to Sunday worship, some Protestants teach Saturday, some teach any day is as good as another, some teach any formal gathering is purely optional, some teach good Christians attend Wednesday night study, etc, etc.
At the end of the day, Protestants cannot agree on how and when to unite, and thus the logical response frequently arises: “why even bother to go to church?”

Just because I left the church doesn’t mean I left the Church. I just don’t happen to belong to a 501.c.3 tax exempt (and thus tax deductible!) organization right now.

But I haven’t cease to gather with believers for fellowship, worship, discipleship, and evangelism. And we’re a lot closer to the NT pattern than the brick-and-mortar institution down the street.

The 501.c.3 people seem to believe that they and they alone get to define what constitutes legitimate church participation. Sorry, but you don’t. That’s been provided for us whether we’ve really paid attention or not.

Jesus spent a lot of time and said a lot of words that had the effect of decentralizing spiritual life. Now we fight like crazy to keep our centralized control of all things spiritual.

For all that the Reformation accomplished, we have would up replace one Catholic church with another, variegated catholic church.

We’re not part of a dysfunction organization; we’re part of an organization that is inconsistent with what Christianity is supposed to be about.

Nick at 8 pm: The problem is simple: Sola Scriptura

Well, Nick, as one who’s been both East and West and all around the town, I can tell you that your solution to the problem posed in this post – i.e., the Roman Catholic Church – is, IMO and experience, a cure worse than the disease. Not for the same reasons, but for its own reasons. 🙂 Hocus Pocus and all that….

WOW! I am truly a misifit. I noticed most comments were all about what “we” get out of it. I go to church to worship Him. The rest of the week I spend with brothers and sisters sharing burdens, praying, encouraging, etc.

Church is not a place to get ‘YOUR” social needs met. It is a time set aside to worship Him in a bigger way. He likes that, it brings Him glory. That was one reason we were created–to worship Him and to bring Him glory. The Church building is simply a location provided so that we can “in larger numbers” testify of His beauty by setting aside one day a week to gather together and worship together and it is a special time to gather together with those who procalim Him as Lord and Savior and offer up sacrifices (or voices, our hearts, our minds, our souls) of Worship.

I could care less if anyone talks to me at “church”. I am there for Him and I know that there are many standing and sitting all around who are my brothers and sisters and we are uniting together in worship.

Am I missing something?

D.L Kane

Kaff,

“Join a church if it claims to follow the faith as taught by the apostles and administers baptism and the supper, in His name. If there was really no such thing I would strongly consider moving somewhere one could be found.”

Do you think that we should move away from a place with no Christians? What if someone said you should stay there precisely because they have no Christians? Couldn’t an argument be made for such?

Quote:Well, Nick, as one who’s been both East and West and all around the town, I can tell you that your solution to the problem posed in this post – i.e., the Roman Catholic Church – is, IMO and experience, a cure worse than the disease. Not for the same reasons, but for its own reasons. 🙂 Hocus Pocus and all that….

That isn’t much of a response. My claim is that the further you move away from an authoritative Church (which is what Sola Scriptura does) the more individualistic Christians become, and that’s why there is no ‘correct’ answer on how,when,why,etc a Christian is supposed to think when it comes to attending church service.

Hi Scott,

I appreciate your point about the value of a space set aside for worshiping God. I think it’s very fine line to tread, because the better we are at helping people experience God in the “God-space”, the more we (unintentionally) encourage people to think (perhaps subconsciously) that, if you want to meet God, if you want to experience God’s presence, you must come here. God’s presence is not to be found in the world at large, among the poor and hurting, in your home, or at your workplace. It is to be found in the “sacred space”.

Gathered worship must not be pursued without a robust sense of calling to go out together into the world to bring the good news of the kingdom to bear in our everyday contexts, to participate in God’s mission of setting the world right, and to call those outside of Christ to follow him.

In fact, I would say that gathering together should serve the “ministry of reconciliation”. If when/where/how we gather as a community helps, inspires, equips, and rejuvenates us for the mission, then that gathering is doing what God intends.

So a building may or may not serve the mission. I think that most US churches own a building not because they believe it will serve the mission God has called them to have among their neighbors. They own a building because that’s what “churches are supposed to do”. That’s why the building is called a “church”. If you don’t have a building, you don’t have a church. What nonsense, especially in a world where fewer and fewer of those who are outside of Christ believe that they will find anything of value inside those church buildings.

If the Church in America were to be under persecution, would we even be having this conversation right now?

Another tricky corner that sola scriptura has painted people into.

Quoted from Nick:
“That isn’t much of a response. My claim is that the further you move away from an authoritative Church (which is what Sola Scriptura does) the more individualistic Christians become, and that’s why there is no ‘correct’ answer on how,when,why,etc a Christian is supposed to think when it comes to attending church service.”

ahh…but the rub is that just because an “authoritative Church” says it doesn’t make it necessarily right either. Must we go into all the instances where each “Church” has been wrong in the past?

Sure I could have peace of mind by giving up all pretense of being “Berean” and agree with whatever “rules of Man” I’m given. But I think God will honor wrestling with his Word (as Michael frequently does) over accepting whatever the nearest Pharisee will tell me is right.

Not to mention the huge variability of individual practitioners within the supposedly monolithic “authoritative Churches”. I don’t they show any less variability than the “Sola Scriptura” folks!

i go to church because there is someone there who needs me. there is someone there who only i can minister to in the way i do.

i go to church because there is someone there who can minister to me. someone through whom God is going to speak to me.

you need to be at church for those two reasons, too. you’ll need to be humble enough to be used by God, and humble enough to hear Him.

Could an argument be made for staying in a place where there are no Christians? Well, missionaries have certainly done this… and, not necessarily foreign missionaries. I don’t think that it would be a good idea for one lone Christian to take this on, but two, or a small group, could go into such a place, with the goal of establishing a church. It would be important for this small group to have had some Bible training, to have a good grasp of scripture.

One of the important functions of the church is to teach correct doctrine. Believers who don’t attend church, tend to be the ones who have ideas which are not Biblically sound. They have no one to correct them, so their false ideas become deeply accepted— ideas which shape their lives.

“Behold, I tell you a mystery…”

btw, sola scriptura is not the problem. I think the problem is that people aren’t actually reading their “scriptura.”

Some thoughts from across the Pacific……while you folk are asleep at this time of night!

Firstly may I comment on the CHURCH BUILDING question.

While there is nothing binding in the NT about meeting in a brick-and-mortar structure, I think having a church building at least presents some practical benefits if nothing else. Years ago we used to attend a small local church that used to meet in school halls. We had to set up before every meeting and then pack up at the end, 3 times a week. It took a lot of our time and energy and it exhausted us. NOT FUN! There is nothing I could romanticize about that experience.

Eventually we bought our own building (quite modest) and it was such a great relief. We had a permanent base, a ‘home’, we were able to do some admin work (photocopying, recordings, storage etc), we could plan better, hold special events without someone else’s consent and utilize it as we saw fit. Of course it cost us a bit, but none of us bemoaned the ‘investment’ since the benefits we got in return outweighed any financial ‘burden’.

Megachurches on the other hand take this to the opposite extreme where the building almost becomes an idol and it ties up enormous amounts of capital that could be diverted elsewhere. But this problem is only one of the many by-products of the megachurch model.

To comment on the initial WHY SHOULD WE questions on CMP’s post, I think can be better answered in response to the WHAT, HOW & WHY questions.

The WHAT

Gathering with other believers is a binding command in the NT, not good advice. It’s not optional. 1 Cor 12:21 makes it clear that there is a God ordained inter-dependence within the body of Christ. There are obvious and multiple reasons for this of course. We are wired to belong.

The very act of baptism is [among other things] an induction into the body “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body” (1 Cor 12:13) Likewise, communion “And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor 10:16)

The HOW

Since we have no biblical mandate to meet in ‘buildings’ no-one can make a case against meeting at Starbucks, someone’s house or in a park. If we can fulfil the functional aspects of church gathering (taking communion, preaching and singing songs) then one can argue nothing stops us meeting anywhere else (although I’d feel weird taking communion and singing songs at Starbucks). Many churches in poor countries don’t have buildings anyway.

As far as cyber-church goes, as much as I enjoy cyber-fellowship, in the spirit of the NT writings I could not regard it as God’s appointed means of ‘church’. Cyber-communities afford us the luxury of anonymity and lack of accountability. When I’m down I’d like to know there’s someone who can shake my hand or put their arm around me, something I can’t do with cyber brothers. Internet communications and other electronic means cannot act as substitutes for the real thing (fellowship with flesh and blood).

The WHY

If one has no desire to mingle with other Christians regularly (Heb 10:25), we have to ask ‘why’? Church is more than a group of people who share common interests; it is an extension of our natural family.

Cheryl u I hear ya, but none of what you described should be a surprise to any of us. Churches are made up of imperfect people full of imperfections (behavioral, doctrinal, relational etc). We recently had to ‘church shop’ as we couldn’t bear our last church any longer for reasons similar to what you described. It came down to 3 things for us. [1] Since all churches are imperfect, we had to ask ourselves which kind of ‘imperfections’ were willing to put up with, [2] a church that is not afraid to preach the native gospel and not the watered down church-lite synthetic preaching of 80% pop psychology and 20% gospel (if you’re lucky) and [3] a church that is willing to ‘get its hands dirty’ with some practical hands-on outreach, that does not spend all its efforts just debating doctrine. As a result we had to change denominations. So now we call ourselves, ‘Pentecostal / megachurch refugees’ and ‘nondenominational skeptics’ as we don’t feel the need for allegiance to any particular denomination (although we are part of one).

So rather than leave church altogether, why not find another one? Surely there’s got to be some church that you could fit in. If not, then you seriously need to ask some ‘why’ questions. Paul’s words on how to ‘put up’ with other Christians was “Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.” (Eph 4:2)

Peace!

I have no problem with people meeting in homes. Fellowshipping with other Christians is what is important. Faith grows faith.

The issue with the above questioner resolves around why they are asking these questions. Our generation can be a little preoccupied with what is in it for us. We care more about our desires than our duty.

If a church is truly dysfunctional enough that perhaps we best not attend then that is possibly a good reason. If we don’t get what we desire then perhaps we should be more concerned about how we should be serving.

In a building or a home we still need to be in a position where we are accountable to others.

How are you going to do cyber-church discipline? Disable their account? Give them limited access to the chatroom? Gathering physically is a NT command. Church is a community of believers doing life together. I can hide my sin and lifestyle in an online community. But if I am gathered regularly, more than once a week and am an active member of a community of a believers, the areas where I need spiritual growth and maturity are going to be obvious to a Biblically-led church and church leadership.

Accountability, obedience, and service are why we go. D.L. Kane’s comment above is dead on- this line of questioning is “all about me and what I GET out of church.” Every self-centered sinner wants to be the exception to God’s rule.

Just as Paul suggests that a Christian should not abandon his unbelieving wife, God does not abandon His Church… even when it is unbiblical. Should we not act likewise? Perhaps the key is doing so why committing to everything else Scripture says. (Including fellowship and truth!)

Can you imagine God writing a letter through Paul to “The Church at Starbucks”?

Impossible… or Super duper cool? =)

A lot of discussion around this topic reminds me of “discussions” I have had with KJV-only folks. They will make an argument (from Scripture) that God’s Word is eternal, or that God will preserve it, or whatever. They then act as if they had proved that the KJV is eternal and that God has preserved it. It’s like they can’t understand that “God’s Word” and “KJV” aren’t two different expressions for the same thing.

In the same way, many people react to the suggestion of not having a dedicated “church building” by trying to prove that the church (or gathering together) is important. I’m sure it’s a caricature to say so, but it almost seems like they can’t grasp that “church” can mean anything other than “church building”.

The comment about selfishness is very relevent here. It’s not about “me”. If the question centers around about how happy or unhappy it makes me, I need to get a new perspective. It’s about God and his will. Worship is a sacrifice not a feel-good experience.

Quoting Scripture passages or making other arguments for why Christians should gather together and why Christians cannot go it alone are quite beside the point for me. I agree 100% with those statements.

Let me make this clear:
Christians should gather together regularly.
Christians should be deeply engaged in each other’s lives.
Christians were never intended to be “lone rangers”.
Christians need each other.

I do not call these activities “going to church”. So when I say that I question the value of “going to church”, I am not referring to those things.

But I still think that owning a dedicated church building is deeply problematic, not something to be unthinkingly assumed, and possibly a hindrance to the mission which God has called his people to be engaged in.

I appreciate that a dedicated building is in most cases more convenient, and I accept that in some cases, it can be a benefit to the mission of the church. I just don’t think we ought to assume that *of course* we need a building.

To cast my thought in a different light: Since “church” means people, I believe that the terms “congregation” and “church” are virtually synonymous. It doesn’t make any sense to “go to congregation,” so why should we “go to church”?

It seems quite obvious that none of you here have experienced the types of things that have left me in the place I am in now.

I am copying two quotes from different people here:

“Church is more than a group of people who share common interests; it is an extension of our natural family.”

That is exactly what I have always thought of church being. That is why when the church acts like anything but a loving and supporting family, it hurts really badly and why it seems utterly nonsensical to tell someone they need to be in church for the support and encouragement.

“Just as Paul suggests that a Christian should not abandon his unbelieving wife, God does not abandon His Church… even when it is unbiblical.”

How do you sit week after week, Sunday morning and week night Bible studies, in a place where you don’t believe what is being taught lines up with Scirpture? And where the practices of the church don’t line up with Scripture? Or where whole sections of teaching in the Bible are written off as not relevant for today? (Remember my original comment about the gifts of the Spirit or the alternative around here). In the New Testament, there is a huge emphasis put on the need for correct doctrine. Obviously, poeple are always going to believe differently about some things, but I am talking about some pretty major issues here.

And I am not talking about just one church or denomination, I have been in various churches and denominations in the past years and it is hard everywhere. We live in a rural area so that also limits the choices that are available. I am not at all saying that the place I am in now is ideal, however at the moment, I don’t see a solution to the problem.

Something else I need to comment on here. Several comments have been made saying that church is “not about me” but it is a sacrifice of worship to God and have, without naming names, made it plain that you think my concerns are selfish.

Have you read I Cor. 14 lately where Paul describes what is done when Christians gather together and the purpose of that gathering? He says that all things are to be done for edification–to build each other up and that all are to learn and be encouraged! Doesn’t sound to me like it is all about a sacrifice of worship to God or that I am just being selfish when the very things Paul says are to happen are the things I have found sorely missing in churches around here. (Obviously, I am not only speaking of Sunday morning services, but also the practical outworking during the week of that “family” that comes together on Sunday morning.)

It seems to me from my reading of the New Testament that the family is to love, support, care for, encourage, and teach each other, etc. Why is this so sadly lacking?

IMO, the church gathering should more resemble a family get-together than an audience/stage setting with a worship band performance followed by a college-style lecture with PowerPoint slides and Flash presentations – which unfortunately seems to be the pattern these days in most churches we’ve visited. It should incorporate sharing/teaching from the Scriptures, as well as everyone being able (whether they do it or not) to minister to one another in prayer and encouraging or prophetic words, and a personal and group recommitment to the New Covenant and one another with a shared cup and shared loaf as part of a Lord’s Table meal, where we remember Jesus to God re: the Covenant He made with us through His Son and eagerly await the day when we will recline at table with Him in His coming kingdom.

Why would any serious Christian not want to be a regular part of something like that?

But like anything else, you first have to decide the reasons why you get together, or should get together, as a church, and then make the structure and format fit that purpose.

Hi Michael (#25), Susan (#32) answered your question for me. If you go somewhere to start a church you are church planting and you had better have a support team.

If you go somewhere without a church and hope one is going to spring from the rocks, you will be disappointed.

I agree with most people that a building is not mandated but becomes a practical necessity. If Christians meet at Starbucks, that’s great. But are you actually: baptising? Serving communion? Praying? Teaching and receiving teaching? Subject to elders? Singing hymns? If not, then you are meeting with some friends for encouragement. That’s great, but don’t fool yourself, it’s not what the New Testament calls a “church”.

Cheryl (#43), I agree that people in the body of Christ are sometimes too concerned with their own needs. And I’m very sorry you’ve felt let down by them. If you are truly convicted this needs to change there is only one thing you can do about it: start showing them a better example. So far I have heard you trash on your local assemblies. May I ask, what are you doing to build them up?

Kaffinator,

You know, I truly wish I had never opened my mouth and said a word here. I thought my experience would spark discussion and that it was in keeping with Michael’s post. I know of many, many people with similar experiences as mine and honestly thought some of them would probably comment here.

Instead, I have been more or less clobbered by people that have obviously never expereinced what I have and don’t have a clue as to what I am talking about.

And I can’t even speak honestly about what I have experienced withought being accused of “trashing on” the local churches!

For your information, I faithfully attended churches in this area for about 25 years–every Sunday morning and once or twice during the week whenever it was possible. I served in whatever ways I could, prayed, and encouraged people by phone calls, conversations, taking food to someone that was sick or whatever. It is not like I have sat here all of my life doing nothing but tear down the local churches There was a time when I defended them completely against anyone that had anything negative to say. Unfortunately, for all of the reasons listed above, and for more that I don’t even want to go into, I can’t do that anymore as I once could.

Cheryl, I have to beg your apology for offending you. I did not intend to suggest that you have NOT done things for your church bodies, only that I didn’t know what they were.

You’re also right in a sense, I have been very blessed by a faithful, active church. Since becoming a believer I have not had to endure what you have. I’m sure the day will come and I hope that my faith in Jesus, my understanding of what “church” really is, and more importantly, His sustaining hand will help me weather that storm.

I do hope you’ll agree that it’s not profitable to anyone to simply accuse churches of these kinds of failures (which I’m sure are very real) without at the same time looking to build them up. And certainly the solution is more involvement, and better example, not less and worse. I was hoping you would agree.

In that vein, what is one thing you think churches today could do differently to encourage more care within the body?

Kaffinator,

Thank you. Apology accepted. I don’t think that anyone that hasn’t “been there, done that” can begin to understand what this is really like. On the other hand, (and I am speaking to everyone here, not pointing at you,) if people won’t listen when someone tells them these kinds of things are going on and how it effects people, but instead clobber the person that has had to deal with the issues, how will anything ever change?

You asked a very good question–how can churches do things differently to encourage more care in the body? I wish I knew an easy answer to that.

It seems to me that maybe the first step is, as I said above, simply listening to those that state there is a problem and not “shoot the messenger” as the old saying goes.

I think maybe another thing would be to point out, probably repeatedly, what the Bible teaches and the examples given of how the body is to care for each other. Maybe we need some basic lessons on the fact that love is more than a word but is an action that has to be put into practice. The American Church as a whole probably needs to realize that we are a very independent and self absorbed lot and that there are people that sit right next to us in church on Sunday morning that have very real practical and emotional needs and that is painful to know that the ones outside of our blood relatives that should care the most and offer help in whatever ways possible often just don’t seem to be concerned in the least.

And of course, there is always, as you have said, the power of example.

The church of my youth was one of the most caring bodies of people that any one could ever ask for. They helped each other in very practical ways. When someone was sick, they prayed, visited, called on the phone to check, brought food or whatever. When someone died, the outpouring of love and support was incredible. In many very important ways, they modeled Christian love in a very Biblical way. Maybe if I hadn’t known what it can be like, experienceing the way it is so often now wouldn’t be so painful.

Cheryl, I don’t know your situation fully, but it sounds like you aren’t in a church but in a building. I hope you can find a biblical church that followed the biblical commands for what the body of Christ looks like, acts like, does.

Matt, Thank you.