Here is an email question that I received with the response to follow:
Good Afternoon:
I am writing to you under emotional pangs, as I wrestle with the Scriptures, and what I hear from certain others who are Christian.The husband of a friend of mine committed suicide. My friend, I know well, and her love and defense of the Scriptures. But I only know of her husband’s belief by what she tell me, and his attendance to church. She said he prayed a lot and loved God, her and their children.
But he yielded to suicide. And from what I understand, this was a long term fight to avoid that. He subsequently said he was going for walk, and he was found in a park, after shooting himself.
Here is a man who “claimed” to love Jesus, but his actions to me, deny his having made Jesus Lord and Master over his life. Rather, he must have had Satan as master.
I used to believe in “free will” but after a long study of the Sovereignty of God, I changed my mind. That study took several years. So I can’t say this man had free will unless he remains outside of God’s Lordship, where he does what the flesh does…. denies the power, promises, and love that God has living within us.
The pastor at the services said what my friend said, he is in heaven, due to the Grace of God.
But how can a person be tempted to kill himself then actually follow through with it, if he has Life in him? And Hope? These reign over Death and Hell.
My Response
Thanks for the questions. These are very good questions, and necessary to struggle with.
You said: “But how can a person be tempted to kill himself then actually follow through with it, if he has Life in him?”
How could David have killed Uriah? How could Peter have denied Christ? How could John have fallen down and worshiped an angel? How could Paul struggle with sin the way he does in Roman 7? Why would Paul exhort Christians to “walk in the spirit and therefore not carry out the deeds of the flesh” if it was a foregone conclusion that Christians cannot walk in the flesh? How could the Galatians (whom Paul considers “brethren”) have turned back toward the law after knowing Christ? How could the Corinthians live as spiritual babes, living in strife, jealously, and envy?
The answer: we are all sinners.
My sister committed suicide. She had been with me at seminary and was one of my primary means of encouragement throughout my early ministry years. She was a prayer warrior, an aspiring evangelist, and one of the most generous people I have ever known. She fell into depression—terrible depression. Depression is a powerful result of the Fall that ends up taking a lot of people’s lives. What she did was sin. Yes, it was premeditated as well.
What sins, in actuality, are not premeditated? There are not many . . . They are mainly personality and spirituality characteristics such as outbursts of anger, jealousy, and faithlessness. But most other sins are premeditated. If God does not forgive premeditated sins—if somehow these are the sins that are not covered by the cross—we are all in trouble.
I don’t know whether the gentleman who went on a walk in the park was a Christian or not (my heart hurts just thinking of his walk), but I do know that the cross of Christ redeems us from all sin, no matter how severe, no matter how much premeditation. Were suicide less traumatic, were it just a push of the button, I doubt that there is any who would escape its fate (we probably would not make it through our teen years!). Have mercy on this man. What he did was sin. What he did will have terrible and lasting consequences (just like any murder), but to think that this necessarily means he was not a Christian is unbiblical and well beyond our ability to judge.
The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses (present tense; 1 John 1:7) us from all sin, not just some sins.
Some may say that all sins have to be confessed before death. I disagree. To say that we cannot have unconfessed sin when we die is problematic both biblically and practically. Biblically, Paul is clear that once we have faith in Christ, we have been saved. This salvation is primarily from the ultimate penalty of our sin—eternal death. If we cannot truly be saved until we die with all sins confessed, then we cannot ever say that we are saved as Paul does. The best we can do is say we might be saved (i.e. if I die without any unconfessed sin). Salvation would always have to be spoken of as a contingent possibility, not a present reality. Yet Paul says to the Ephesians, “By grace you have been saved” (Eph. 2:8). Christ says in John 6:24, “Whoever believes in me has eternal life.” There is no contingency here. The question then becomes: Do you really believe?
The practical problem is this: If you do have to die without any unconfessed sin, how are you to be spiritually aware enough to remember all your sins? What if you forget one? What about the time you sped through the school zone? What about the time you pridefully thought about your promotion at work? What about the time you envied your neighbor’s new sprinkler system? What about the time you said you were sick, to avoid something, and you really weren’t? From a practical stand point, everyone will die with unconfessed sin. Most of these will include serious sins such as greed, pride, and envy. Therefore, are we all bound for hell? This trivializes the cross, forgiveness, and sin.
Christ’s death is a once for all remedy to our damnation. Because of this grace and forgiveness, we should live a life that is pleasing to Him, but some of us won’t do so well. That is what makes grace so wonderful and radical—indeed, beyond belief.
Hope that is helpful.
123 replies to "Do People Who Commit Suicide Go to Hell?"
Eric,
See? It wasn’t so hard, now, was it?
How is it that you have come by your omniscience’s as to Michael sister and my sister and brother-in-law who also committed suicide?
For the same reason I also have omniscience about what goes on inside the body of someone who came down with the common cold, fever, or influenza: I’ve been there. It’s that simple.
Let me guess… by their fruits, right?
See? You’re omniscient as well. (And it wasn’t so hard, was it?)
your fruits bare witness against you;
Of course they do. One problem, though: I’m not dead. Yet. There’s still time to repent. (Hebrews 9:27)
Is there any sin that is able to keep one from entering heaven?
Yes. An unrepented sin. (Like suicide, for instance).
How sad that there are actually those who would say, “Yes he/she is in hell for committing suicide for this reason or thus.”
Let us focus for now on condemning the sin (as opoosed to exculpating it), and not the sinner — shall we?
Most of you in this comment box will die by (non-violent, nutritional, lifestyle-related) suicide. Suicide by bad eating is how we classify Alan Turing a suicide.
1) That’s why there’re four Great Fasts each year, as well as two fasting days each week, plus the commandment to serve God, not the belly. (Philippians 3:19)
2) “Everybody’s doing it” is not mentioned in the Bible as a viable excuse in front of the Throne of Judgment.
My biggest prayer is that people reading these posts won’t conclude it’s o.k. to commit suicide because it is forgivable.
Same here. God forbid.
it is not obvious that they did fight and reject God’s Grace: rejection or acceptance of it happens at the level of faith, of believing, and you have no obvious markers of that.
According to the Bible, I do. We all do. Some of them, (like Matthew 7:16, 20; 12:33; Luke 6:44; and James 2:18) were already mentioned in my…
Suicide is clearly the work of the one whom Christ described as being a liar and a murderer of men from the beginning: the devil. — It doesn’t take tons of exegesis to figure this one out.
Dozie,
Let me try a different approach at explaining what I think Michael intended to say. Let me start by dichotomizing our standing from our actions. As unbelievers, how often people sin does not change their standing. Yes, their actions are wrong, but it does not make them any more or less likely to end up in hell. As members of Adam’s race, our standing before God is “condemned.” When Adam sinned, we all received his guilt as members of the human race through his representation. When Christ died sinless, we were offered His righteousness by God’s grace through faith. What was done in Adam’s rebellion was undone in Christ’s perfect obedience (Romans 5:12-21).
The issue with salvation is not activity, but standing. I am going to heaven, not because I am a really good person, but because I stand before Him justified. Justification is simply God’s legal declaration that a person is now righteous, and this justification is brought to us courtesy of Christ’s work through which I am imputed Christ’s righteousness. No matter what I do, no matter how heinous of a sin I commit, this standing will not change.
This is the important element. A Christian can die with unconfessed sin, and that sin can affect his walk and relationship with God, but it does not affect his standing. In a way, it is similar to our justice system, where a person can never be tried twice for the same crime with the same consequences. God doesn’t “appeal” our salvation status after violations; we stand before him reflecting the righteousness and holiness that Christ Himself possessed. Christians live just like unbelievers, and Christians sin just like unbelievers. The difference is NOT what we do, but how we stand before God through what Christ did.
So, to answer your question, for the one who stands as “justified”, nothing can be done to negate that standing. A disobedient child may hurt his relationship with his parents, but cannot lose his place as their child.
“The issue with salvation is not activity, but standing. I am going to heaven, not because I am a really good person, but because I stand before Him justified.”
First question: Where exactly does one find the above in the teachings of Christ specifically or the bible as a whole?
“Justification is simply God’s legal declaration that a person is now righteous, and this justification is brought to us courtesy of Christ’s work through which I am imputed Christ’s righteousness. No matter what I do, no matter how heinous of a sin I commit, this standing will not change”
Second question: Where exactly does one find the above in the teachings of Christ specifically or the bible as a whole?
“A Christian can die with unconfessed sin, and that sin can affect his walk and relationship with God, but it does not affect his standing. In a way, it is similar to our justice system, where a person can never be tried twice for the same crime with the same consequences.”
It is obvious from the bogus assertions that many have been decieved into beliving many lies. What you have asserted is not part of Christianity and you will not be able to find Christ or the NT writers as backups for the evil teachings you are propounding. You brush aside the very word of God which warns:
“Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God”
Instead, you prefer your very sectarian and novel theories about having a reservation in heaven.
“So, to answer your question, for the one who stands as “justified”, nothing can be done to negate that standing. A disobedient child may hurt his relationship with his parents, but cannot lose his place as their child.”
This can only come from a terrible and terrifying religion. The entire bible, old and new, is full of admonitions to refrain from evil and fear God – God will avenge evil. This new religion is teaching that once you punch your time card, you are in.
Dozie,
“This new religion is teaching that once you punch your time card, you are in.”
This is the teaching of easy believism, or cheap grace, as some of us call it. The truly converted do not follow this, but believe that our inner conversion is just as important as our outer one. Christ’s transforms and renews the minds and the actions of those who are truly His. This does not mean that we don’t ever sin, just that we recognize it and repent of it when we do.
And unfortunately we even the best Christians don’t always do that immediately either, or even ever. But please never base your judgement of Christianity upon we do, which is always imperfect, but upon what Christ did on the cross.
Remember when you stand before Him He will not take the excuse that it is what others did that influenced you. That helps me, a Christian but one who still sins despite that, to know the difference.
Dozie,
Part of it is inherent in the term “justified.” It is a legal term that does not deal with the involvement in a crime, but in one’s legal standing as a result of a court ruling. Also, Paul speaks of his right to receive the resurrection of the dead, which is the ultimate consummation of salvation, in Philippians 3:9, because he is found not having his own righteousness, which of is of the law, but rather he has the righteousness of Christ. Romans 3:22 assures that this “righteousness of God” is available through Christ’s work to all who believe regardless of nationality. I Corinthians 1:30 reassures us that through Christ we are offered among other blessings, righteousness that Christ brings through His death. And again, I would point you in the direction of the Romans 5 concerning Christ’s imputed righteousness.
But laying this alongside other passages demands a view that makes this standing. We are not immune to sin once we believe. This is not Paul’s point. As believers, we still sin, but the effect is relational. Paul deals with sin in many of his epistles. His point is not to tell them that they are going to hell, but to remedy the sin by laying a doctrinal foundation for how they should live and deal with sin.
Paul does not deny sin in the believer’s life, but he affirms that it is present. Likewise, he affirms as strongly that all believers are righteous in the eyes of God. So although I am not sure that the word “standing” is used Biblically to refer to a believer’s righteousness before God, the concept is clearly there. And if anyone would oppose this understanding, I would be interested to hear their take and explanation on how to reconcile a believer’s righteousness and sin. Remember, the terminology that is used may not be in the Bible, but the question is whether the underlying teaching is, and I think one would be very hard-pressed to refute my understanding from the Bible.
Eric,
See? It wasn’t so hard, now, was it?
How is it that you have come by your omniscience’s as to Michael sister and my sister and brother-in-law who also committed suicide?
Because I’ve been there as well. (I also possess ‘omniscience’ as to what goes on when one is sick with the flu or the common cold, falls in love for the first time, etc). — See how ‘omniscient’ I am? 😐
Let me guess… by their fruits, right?
Yes. That’s what the Gospel teaches. These are the words of Christ.
You forgot one thing… ”The Mediator”
I’m not alone: they forgot Him as well. 🙁
your fruits bare witness against you
Of course they do. The only problem is, I’m not dead. Yet. Repentance is still possible. (For the rich man in the parable of Lazarus, it wasn’t: see Hebrews 9:27).
Is there any sin that is able to keep one from entering heaven?
Yes. An unrepented sin. And suicide is such by its nature.
How sad that there are actually those who would say, “Yes he/she is in hell for committing suicide for this reason or thus.”
Let us condemn the sin, not the sinner, shall we? Neither excusing the sin, nor condemning the sinner, are the right things to do.
Rejection or acceptance of it [God’s Grace] happens at the level of faith, of believing, and you have no obvious markers of that.
According to the New Testament, I do. We all do.
Most of you in this comment box will die by (non-violent, nutritional, lifestyle-related) suicide. Suicide by bad eating is how we classify Alan Turing a suicide.
And what other does this do, than to confirm Christ’s words, that wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat? (Matthew 7:13)
That’s why Saint Paul admonished us to serve God, rather than the belly, whose worship leads to destruction. (Philippians 3:19) That’s why there’re four Great Fasts each year.
My biggest prayer is that people reading these posts won’t conclude it’s o.k. to commit suicide because it is forgivable.
Same here, Jeff… God forbid! + 😐
Dozie,
I am sorry that it appears I came across wrong in my first post. Understand that I do not believe Christians should go and live however they want. Paul is very clear that we should not live in sin that grace would abound. But at the same time, just because we sin does not mean we lose our salvation. But that also doesn’t mean that the believer is immune to consequences. My understanding of Hebrews is not that we lose our salvation, but that by living a life that is tethered to anything but Christ, we do not forfeit our salvation, but we forfeit eternal rewards. So yes, there is still “punishment” in a sense for believers who sin, but to the degree of jeopardizing their place in heaven, which is what your question originally regarded, that is not the punishment in view. I agree that God does punish evil, but as a child of God His wrath toward me was poured out upon Christ on the cross. Christ took MY penalty upon Himself.
It must not be understood that in order to keep that salvation I must conform to the law, otherwise Christ is dead in vain. Galatians 2:21-3:4 asks the penetrating question that how could the Galatians, whose eternal life was begun in the Spirit, be perfected by their works of the flesh. The answer is obvious, it can’t. Salvation in each stage is not effected by me, it is effected by God through Christ’s work (Ephesians 1). Grace is not cheap, grace is FREE, otherwise it becomes merit. If this concept seems terrifying and foreign, I would recommend wading through Dillow’s 600 page book entitled The Reign of the Servant Kings. Sit down and work through the book, and I think it will clarify many of your questions about the relationship of works, salvation, and rewards.
I truly hope this helps. I think part of the problem was an assumption that all of my theology was summarized in my post, but there are many facets to salvation that we must understand for a complete picture, I was only trying to deal with one facet.
Lucian @58 – you’re responding to J.R. @37, not me, by the way.
“But at the same time, just because we sin does not mean we lose our salvation. But that also doesn’t mean that the believer is immune to consequences.”
What you will need to do is address how you take care of your uncleanness (sin) when the bible says nothing unclean shall enter shall enter heaven.
Also, I would like you to summarize Christ’s own teachings in the gospels on who, or how one, enter’s God’s kingdom.
I’m responding to a lot of people at #58, including you, Herr Weiss.
@Oun:
Suicide results from suicidal behaviour. Is there someone here able to argue that suicidal behaviour is more-permissible that suicide? How is the partition even made?
Yes. “There is none righteous. No, not one.”
Whenever I see people saying “he is damned because he does/did …” I seek to show such a one that he too, by the same law, is damned. It is not diversion. Jesus Christ Himself did this.
@Lucian:
Yes. So is self-righteousness. He was also called the Accuser of the Brethren.
@Dozie:
John chapter 3, in the words of Jesus Himself. How do you understand this: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
Is suicide forgiveable or unforgiveable?
@Dozie:
John chapter 10, in Jesus’ words. How do you understand this: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
You should note that if you rely on yourself for justification, then this does not hold. The one who rescues the condemned man on the cross—whose only act there was believing—is the one who rescues you. The better question: where do you see Jesus’ salvation pivoted on your works?
You are only a sinner if you are not covered by the blood. You who relies on how good you are will find that you qualify as a fornicator. (“You have heard that it was said to you … but I say to you …”) We who get our righteousness from Christ will never be found to be sinners before God, because Jesus never sinned.
God did avenge evil. What do you think Calvary was for? And if you are not justified by the Sacrifice, what was it for? You, you want a righteousness that comes from your works. Good for you. As for me, I know whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that Day.
@mbaker:
Mark my word: if it is not cheap Grace, it is not grace at all. If it is not easy-believism, it is not faith at all. “For what we preach is foolishness to those who are perishing.” St. Paul is here: “It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” Here is Jesus Christ: “Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish.” If that is not cheap grace and easy-believism, nothing is. Yet if something is not, then it is another gospel, which is not even a gospel.
@Lucian:
Repent and believe. (Go and study the meaning of that line. “Turn around from your ways and start believing.”)
Lucian, do you believe that Jesus should have qualified John 3:16 with “unless one commits suicide, of course, in which case …”?
And though we all do, some of your kind were saying “If he be a man of God, why does he eat with sinners and tax-collectors?” Yes, yes: we have obvious markers.
It also confirms that you are certainly going to die with that unconfessed sin. If you take advice, here it is: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you and your household, and you shall be saved.” “Whosoever does not believe stands already condemned.” It is not “make sure you fast hard”, but rather “make sure you believe”. “For the law was not given to make men righteous, but to show them the need for redemption.” “Christ is the end of the law, that there may be righteousness for those who believe.”
@Jeff:
That is very unlikely, because before you get to Romans 8, even Romans 8:1, you must pass through Romans 7. And Romans 7 is the manifesto of one who hates sin, but is unfortunately a child of Adam. We do not come to Grace for a chance to sin, but rather for a chance to be righteous in spite of our failure to not sin.
@Dozie:
We do not take care of our own uncleanliness. We are not under the Law. We have no uncleanliness left, after Christ has washed us. Nothing unclean will enter Heaven. That is why you should believe, and be washed, or you will have only the option of, as you put it, taking care of your sin. And you, most-certainly, will fail to get yourself clean. “If righteousness could come by observing the Law, Christ died in vain.”
Jesus Christ made a summary, once. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” It suffices for me, as I am (through experience) not very eager for my assurance to lay on my shoulders. St. Paul wrote: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” Isn’t it clear? Thank God that it is true…
“You should note that if you rely on yourself for justification, then this does not hold.”
You are afraid to let the text stand by itself; your addition above is not part of the text you cited.
“You are only a sinner if you are not covered by the blood.”
Again, extra biblical. This is no where in a text you can find in the bible. So much for sola scriptura.
“God did avenge evil. What do you think Calvary was for?”
Ok, why is there still evil? Why is the great judgment day being waited? You see, you seem to have bravado and nothing more.
27th,
Belief in Christ as defined in John 3:16 and other places in the Bible offers salvation by His grace because of what Christ did on the cross. It doesn’t give us permission to deliberately take advantage of that opportunity to sin without consequences because we are Christian. That is holding His suffering very casually indeed. That is my definition of easy believism.
But our sin is forgivable. No one makes it to heaven in a perfect state because our righteousness is imputed by the blood of Christ, it is not earned and cannot be.
Do I believe suicide is the unforgivable sin and that people go to hell because they are so desperate they cannot discern the difference between right and wrong? No, absolutely not. They are taking their lives literally in their own hands because they have reached a place of such distrust in life and desperation that they are literally not in their right minds.. Do you think in that situation they would be denied God’s grace? By it’s very definition, I don’t think so.
This is different from say someone who is in their right mind and knows better, then commits a heinous murder thinking he/she is immune from divine consequences because they may have accepted the gift of eternal life somewhere long the line, but never really became converted. They are using and abusing Christianity for their own ends.
Dozie,
I’ll summarize my understanding.
Eight times in the NT, we read of “entering the kingdom of heaven” (Mt. 5:20; 7:21; 18:3; 19:23; 19:24, Mk 9:47; Jn. 3:5; Acts 14:22). In some cases, “entering the kingdom of God”, or a similar phrase is used interchangeably, but most are other accounts of the same stories. Each one of these passages asserts that the problem of entering the kingdom is that of faith. So, for example, the rich have a difficult time entering because they trust in riches rather than God, or we must become like a child and believe. Entering the kingdom refers to salvation, and it is only by grace through faith, not works.
Many times the Bible refers to “inheriting the kingdom.” This is where I point toward the reward factor. Inheriting refers to taking possession of the kingdom, and actually has the meaning of rulership or ownership. I am premill, so I understand this as taking place in the millennial kingdom of Christ. When works are in view, it is speaking of inheriting a position of rulership in the kingdom, e.g. rewards. Inheritance, both lexically and in the Bible, can refer either to an object given graciously, or earned. So when we read of inheriting the kingdom, I conclude that it is not salvation, but earning the right of ownership and rule in the millennial kingdom. Again, concerning this, get Dillow’s book. He deals with this for about 100 pages and supports this premise very convincingly from Scripture.
When the kingdom is used, it must not be assumed that it always refers to heaven. In some cases, it refers to God’s rule over all the universe (read through the Psalms, and you’ll see this usage regularly). In some cases, you will see it referring to heaven. In some cases it refers to God’s rule on David’s throne. There are some good works on the kingdom, for one who is new to kingdom theology, try Pentecost’s Thy Kingdom Come, and for more advanced, McClain’s The Greatness of the Kingdom.
@Dozie:
Well, then, remove my gloss and read it again. See if you can read your works into the salvation plan.
I am not into sola scriptura. I am not a Protestant. I have no religion. All the same, do you claim that I am wrong to say “You are only a sinner if you are not covered by the blood.”? What, to you, is the purpose of Jesus’ sacrifice? Is Galatians 2 really so far away from you?
Evil is there, because some (like you) do not have faith in the finished work, but have faith in themselves. So they return to the law, which was never meant to produce righteousness, but to point out shortcomings. This is why we still have evil. If we all “believed (and) shall not perish”, seeing as not-perishing is for those who are sinless, it would mean that we are all sinless. —Not because we obeyed the law, but because we believed.
The judgement day is waiting for you, who think that your works can pass muster before God. You will be surprised just how bad even the best humans are. “You have heard that it was said to you … but now I say to you …” Have gouged any eyes out, of late? Hearken the words of your future judge: believe, or you already stand condemned. John chapter 3.
No, it is just that I know whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto Him against that day. (St. Paul never held copyrights, thankfully.)
Allow me to note that you did not answer any of my questions. They were asked to establish for me where you stand; we have answered yours.
Comrade,
As I already said above: I never accused anyone, bretheren or not. I did however expose this sin for what it was, and acknowledged its evil and its true power.
John’s Gospel also makes it clear that friendship with Christ includes keeping His commandments.
Eating is not a sin the last time I checked.
@mbaker:
Like I said before, the only people who actually know their need for Grace (and therefore believe) are those who have wanted to not sin, and found that they ram into the law. This is why the law was given: to lead men to Grace. So nobody gets to Grace who treats the law lightly. We get to Grace because we know that we will sin, whether or not we do not want to. Romans 8 comes after Romans 7.
We do indeed sin without judgmental consequences (for they are born in Christ); but I have never met anyone who then encourages people to murder because there is no condemnation for them. Indeed, this has it opposite. If we dwell on our justification, we put to death the law, and so sin—which springs to life due to the law—is put to death.
The only people who do not treat Jesus suffering casually are those who know how much he has saved them from. “He who is forgiven much loves much.” It is those who scorn “easy-believism and cheap grace”, and those who think that their works can augment Jesus’ works, who are treating Jesus’ suffering casually. We who understand that “It is finished!” is a literal triumphant cry of the Lamb of God Who Taketh Away the Sins of the World, we are the only ones who are not treating the blood casually. Hebrews 9-10!
Nobody does that. No sin comes before temptation. Jesus is a blessing precisely when/because we fall to our temptations, however trivial they may look to self-righteous Pharisees. Jesus is for the weak, as the doctor for the sick. Some refuse to accept that they can never be good enough; but remember Luke…
@mbaker:
Some refuse to accept that they can never be good enough; but remember Luke chapter 18!
Conversion is turning from being works-delivered (which is a botched delivery anyway) to being faith-delivered. “Repent and believe.” If you believe, then you have converted, and you are safe. I see you used “heinous murder”; why not looking at waitress’ breasts/legs? Or porn? After all, adultery should result in the death penalty, and Jesus told us that this is adultery. We are beggars all. Whoever accepts eternal life does it by believing. “Whosoever believeth has passed from death to life,” says Jesus. What you do neither adds nor removes from your assurance: God has you in his hands, and you are safe, if you believe. May you then have peace. This is what it means to be free from the law and alive in the Spirit.
What do you know that one could do that would undo Jesus’ redemptive work? Do you feel that He should have qualified John 3:16? (There is a reason this verse has been written everywhere on Earth, in every language, by the Holy Spirit. It is complete salvific doctrine in a sentence. “Whosoever believeth.”)
To be honest, I do not worry that people will sin after they have believed. They were sinning outside of Grace, anyway. When in Grace, they have been redeemed, and the devil is playing a losing game, no matter what. God has won, when Grace triumphs. I focus my eyes on the brass serpent that has been lifted up, that the vipers may peck all they like, and still I shall not die.
Until you understand how extreme the Grace is, you will never be able to understand that God Is Love.
@Lucian:
You said that the suicide is in Hell. You said that the suicide was a sinner, and was condemned. That is what it means to accuse. You did accuse a brother, even as our Intercessor stands before God and holds up His wounds. “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.”
In turn, I acknowledged its extent. You are condemned under this same law.
Yes, that is why only those who believe are Jesus’ friends; for by faith in this Grace of God, we uphold the law. Romans 3. You, who seek to be justified because you work, end up not upholding the law, because it is beyond you to fulfill it. As such, you are not Jesus’ friends. You do not obey His commandment; neither to live according to the commandments, nor to have faith and thereby uphold the commandments.
Over-eating is, and you do it. Eating bad food is, and you do it. Eating unclean food is, and you do it. Smoking (passively or not) is a sin, and you do it. Eating while your neighbour starves is, and you do it. Eating more than the bare minimum is, and you do it. Eating unfairly-traded food is, and you do it. Eating without hunger is, and you do it. “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.” Romans 3, still.
Lucian, repent and believe. There…
Comrade,
refrain from putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say.
I would also have to disagree with you on your last paragraph.
Lucian, are you saying that you did not say that the suicide is in Hell? How should I understand this:
You said that the suicide is in Hell. You said that the suicide was a sinner, and was condemned. That is what it means to accuse. You did accuse a brother, even as our Intercessor stands before God and holds up His wounds. “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.”
Since it is long, you will have to be specific. In particular, I maintain the following:
Over-eating is, and you do it. Eating bad food is, and you do it. Eating unclean food is, and you do it. Smoking (passively or not) is a sin, and you do it. Eating while your neighbour starves is, and you do it. Eating more than the bare minimum is, and you do it. Eating unfairly-traded food is, and you do it. Eating without hunger is, and you do it. “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.” Romans 3, still.
Lucian, repent and believe. There is time yet.
“We who get our righteousness from Christ will never be found to be sinners before God, because Jesus never sinned.”
I will simply let you reflect on the gospel reading for Mass today (Lk 13:22-30).
“Jesus passed through towns and villages,
teaching as he went and making his way to Jerusalem.
Someone asked him,
“Lord, will only a few people be saved?”
He answered them,
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate,
for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter
but will not be strong enough.
After the master of the house has arisen and locked the door,
then will you stand outside knocking and saying,
‘Lord, open the door for us.’
He will say to you in reply,
‘I do not know where you are from.
And you will say,
‘We ate and drank in your company and you taught in our streets.’
Then he will say to you,
‘I do not know where you are from.
Depart from me, all you evildoers!’
And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth
when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
and all the prophets in the kingdom of God
and you yourselves cast out.
And people will come from the east and the west
and from the north and the south
and will recline at table in the kingdom of God.
For behold, some are last who will be first,
and some are first who will be last.”
You will struggle to no end to find a thing that resembles your model of salvation. St. James warns you; faith without works is dead. Faith without works is dead, not merely bad, or not good enough; it is dead – not there and not faith at all. Are your ears tuned to hear?
The 27th Comrade:
Lucian has not contested my post 36.
I wrote it based on his earlier replies to me re: my use of Mark 3:28-30 in which I suggested that the only unforgivable sin is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, not suicide, and that suicide seemed to be a forgivable sin under Mark 3:28.
Lucian, however, seems to me to be suggesting that committing suicide is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. As I wrote him:
ISTM that the only way to say with confidence that the suicide is in hell is to insist that suicide is an unforgivable sin – i.e., what I guess the Catholic Church (and I know Lucian is not Roman Catholic) would call an unconfessed/unrepented mortal sin.
27th,
Dozie said:
‘You will struggle to no end to find a thing that resembles your model of salvation. St. James warns you; faith without works is dead. Faith without works is dead, not merely bad, or not good enough; it is dead – not there and not faith at all. Are your ears tuned to hear?”
And I think the knowing part is very important once we have been converted. Suicides are often confused on that point I think, thinking that grace is no longer available because to them because they do doubt. Do you not think that is a big factor in their giving up?
“We who get our righteousness from Christ will never be found to be sinners before God, because Jesus never sinned.”
Are you striving to enter the kingdom of God or are you relying on “easy believism”? Hopefully you believe that Jesus is not a lier nor does he have any guile in him. Therefore, we believe he told the truth when he said:
““Strive to enter through the narrow gate”
Elsewhere he said: “carry your cross and follow me” and in another:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven”.
Hopefully you begin to notice that for Jesus and the whole bible, salvation is by works. The believer is an acting man – a working man.
Jesus warns:
“Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
@Dozie:
Yes. Faith is the narrow gate. All who do not get in will be found wanting, because they relied on their incapable selves.
It is not my model. I did not write John 3. I am certainly not St. Paul, and I did not write Romans 10.
Yes. Read the first response I wrote to Lucian. And unfaith with works is also dead. Do you know how many times “Pharisee” is used as a praiseworthy term by Jesus? Count them.
@mbaker:
Responding to Grace is having it. Unless you have believed, you do not even know why you should be thankful. “He who has been forgiven much loves much.” You who have work left to do … well, you can never respond to Grace with eager thankfulness. Romans 4. The ones who give Jesus the glory of the triumphant saviour are those who know that they are saved because of Him alone. This is palpable thankfulness for any who believe it.
I do not know much about suicidal thinking, but if they can have faith as suicidal people, then they can die saved.
@Dozie:
Since John 3 is easy-believism, I am relying on easy-believism. (And Romans 4-10. And Galatians. Whatever.)
Faith is the narrow gate. Read Romans 9-10. “Unless you become like one of these children …” What did the Pharisees lack: works, zeal, being “working men”, or faith? Read John 3 to the end.
The Father’s will is that we might believe. Read Jesus’ words in John 3. That, He tells you, is the Father’s will. Who are you to challenge Him?
The Pharisees were not saved for a reason. Here is something for you: “But Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the ‘stumbling stone.’ I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.” Romans 9-10. If you want to be judged on your own merit, go for it. Just don’t say I never told you, when you are found wanting.
Self-contradictions aside, look again at John 3. The road of faith is narrow indeed, for (1 Corinthians 1) it is foolishness to those…
@Dozie:
What have you done about what Jesus said in John 3? “Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish.” You, you say “Whosoever says this and that, and remembers to do this and that, and remembers to make this or that pilgrimage.” You have fallen from Grace, choosing to live under the Law, which can never make you righteous. Galatians 3:24: “So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ hat we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.” Choose: law or faith? Pharisee condemned, or adulteress rescued?
You have built your house on your efforts, and that is sand. Those who build on God are on solid rock. You take your pick. The day of reckoning is near, and we shall see whose house does not get burnt up.
Ever wondered why the Pharisees—who would have no trouble running law-observance circles around you—never managed to believe in Jesus? And you brag about being “a working man”. The road of faith is narrow indeed, for (1 Corinthians 1) it is foolishness to those who are perishing. Read you some Galatians.
My point was that there’s a difference between rules and exception to the rules.
My point was that suicide drags people to hell much in the same manner in which a bullet through one’s head drags one to death.
I saw a Discovery Channel documentary once, about a man who had half of his brain (one hemisphere) blown out, yet still lived: he’s in an armchair, but that’s pretty much it — YET you DON’T see me writing articles on my blog, entitled “Do People Who Are Shot In The Head *Really* Go to the Morgue?“.
NOR do I see other articles on this blog about how things like zoophilia, necrophilia, and incest (for instance) DO NOT make someone lose his or her salvation… and then everybody here congratulating the writer for being so super-biblically-true for “preachin` the Gospel”…
Heaven is not what should be “expected” and “held for granted” in such cases… quite the opposite.
Depression is hell (as everyone who suffered from it very well knows), so it’s only logical to expect that if someone is in hell 5 seconds or 5 minutes before death, he or she will still be there for the next 5 seconds or 5 minutes…
Heaven and hell are not physical places to which we are sent… they are spiritual states in which we find ourselves — it’s that easy.
Hence, those who are depressed will continue in their depression afterwards: in other words, they stay or remain in their own hell upon death…
Death is NOT the solution to escaping depression, because the depressed despises existence itself, and –as Christians– we know that “existence” is NOT the same as (earthly) life (since we have an immortal soul and believe in the resurrection of the dead).
Eternal existence (i.e., the afterlife) is eternal hell for those for which existence itself is hell (i.e., the depressed).
Is depression unbeatable? By no means!
By the words of two or three witnesses shall every truth be established. (Deuteronomy 17:6, 19:15; Matthew 18:16; 2 Corinthians 13:1; 1 Timothy 5:19; Hebrews 10:28).
And there are three that bear witness in earth: Michael, Eric, and Lucian: and these three agree in one [that it is possible for depression to be to overcome]. (1 John 5:8) 🙂
Is there a slight chance of someone having a change of heart and mind even in the afterlife? Seems so.. (1 Peter 3:18-20).
But it’s dangerous to turn rules into exceptions, and exceptions into rules… that was my point. (Let alone “expect” or “demand” such a thing from God, as if He would owe something to us!…)
Why is it so dangerous? Because such articles benefit NEITHER the living, NOR the dead. — Why so?
— They do not benefit the dead, because writing somewhere that Christians who take their own lives do not go to hell does not make it so. (Why? Because only God’s words and commandments have that power: to self-execute or self-materialize themselves — and this article was obviously not written by God).
— They do not benefit the living either, since nothing less than total, absolute, and complete conviction that I will definitely go to hell if I kill myself was one of THE things that (quite literally) saved MY life.
My mother tried that on my sister. She told her that she might go to hell if she did kill herself. She thought that placing a bit of doubt there would curb her enthusiasm.
However, pragmatic means of belief are no more true simply because they may work at accomplishing the desired result. If we lived and functioned in such a way, there would be no end to the destruction of truth in favor of our life. Truth is more important than even one’s life.
Lucian:
I have no idea what you’re saying.
And you still haven’t refuted or corrected my listing of what your equation/syllogism seems to be.
Your statement:
still stands, I think. Do you still stand by it?
It’s important to be sure of something; leave no room for doubt. (Since depression is exceedingly overwhelming, and the soul is emptied and weakened beyond description).
Eric,
I’ve confirmed it in my first comment after it (#51).
You wrote in your first comment on this thread (#4) about a very dark episode you had once.. one of extreme hopelesness and sheer & utter meaninglesness.. that’s depression. Total darkness and complete nothingness. (From what I understand, in your case it only lasted for a very short amount of time.. in my case it was three months [with recurring episodes of ever-decreasing duration and intensity over the following semester].. in the case of Michael’s sister, it was two whole years, if I recall correctly.. in Michael’s case, it was a few weeks or months..)
Lucian:
Oh, so that’s what you meant when you said it wasn’t so hard. I wasn’t sure what you were referring to. Thanks for the clarification.
From your later comments, that is not true. You made it clear that suicide implied certain damnation. At any rate, you should be saying that about self-righteousness, for it what drags people to Hell. After Calvary, the only sin that gets men into Hell is one: not believing. The Pharisees were being dragged to Hell not due to suicidal tendencies.
Perhaps someone should ask, and you will see the answers. They will be the same.
Really? So John 3:16 is subjunctive when correctly translated? Your word against Paul’s. “I know whom I’ve believed and I’m persuaded that He is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto Him against that Day.” 1 Tim 1, 2 Tim 1. I have preferences.
No. “Eye has not heard, ear has not heard.” If you are right, I should make sure I die of an ecstatic drug overdose.
Jesus teaches the opposite. “Come to me all ye who are weary heavy laded [Greek: depressed], and I will give you rest.” Sucks to think the martyrs are still burning and bleeding.
@EricW, I also see no answers to my questions. But perhaps you can permit him a quiet retreat on things that he may have typed rashly. We all do it, from time to time. It seems to me that he does not answer because he cannot (or, still, just will not).
From the same person who quoted “Once to die, and thereafter the judgement”?
Writing that they go to Hell does not make it so, either.
In light of the fact that your lifestyle is a slow and certain suicide, you really have a big think to do. And if you get ‘round to it, recognising that what makes suicide a crime is “Thou shalt not kill”, start with the Romans 10:1-4. And then have the kind of peace that comes from Calvary. “The punishment that brought us peace was upon him.” Isaiah 53.
@Pastor Patton:
It is even worrying that, though Jesus said “The truth shall set you free,” we dare to hold it back from those who need it the most, who are so seriously bound. It is because we have no faith in the Truth that we tell such lies. You are right: Truth is more important than even one’s life. Not least because it gives life.
Comrade,
if someone doesn’t get rid of his drug-addiction in this life-time, he will go with it in the next: only he or she won’t be able to satisfy it there. Ever. — And this is the fate of almost all that end their lives in such manner.
John 3:16 does not imply universalism: humans have to repent (like Peter) — not take their own lives (like Judas).
Since you brought up Saint Paul, read the sixth chapter of his letter to the Romans.
The “peace” that Isaiah the Prophet mentions is obviously not present in the souls of those that take their own lives due to succumbing to depression. — so why invoke it in the first place?
And when Christ said “come to Me”, He didn’t mean for us to kill ourselves! Those that prefer to rather take the matter into their own hands, and falsely-“solving” it on their own, by taking their own lives, rather than going to Christ with their problem, and asking Him to fix it, obviously do not respect this verse, so why did you even quote it?
I also didn’t say that depression is the only sin that drags people into the abyss. [I basically said that guns kill people, to which you responded that -since cars also kill people- it follows therefore that bullets don’t — which is a complete non-sequitur].
if someone doesn’t get rid of his drug-addiction in this life-time, he will go with it in the next: only he or she won’t be able to satisfy it there. Ever. — And this is the fate of almost all that end their lives in such manner.
In the words of The Smothers Brothers: “Bolshoi!”
Tom: I went to the ballet last night.
Dick: Bolshoi?
Tom: No, really.
Lucian, LOL, you’re a romantic eisegete. Your comments leave one asking “what the….”.
And please, don’t take that in a bad way, at least I know where you’re coming from.
Not true. You seem to mean that only those who die with no burdens will live forever with no burdens. This is the opposite of what Jesus promises.
Not true. It may be the fate of the (perhaps large) subset of these who also do not believe in Jesus.
It does not. If it did, legalists would be certainly redeemed. But you, because you rely on being good, are not covered by John 3:16. It is explicitly non-universalist. Only those who believe.
Yes: “Repent and believe.”
It is not taking his life that condemned Judas; just as your own taking your life will not be what condemns you. John 3:18.
Yes, Rom 6 insists that we are dead to the Law (“Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? … In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.”), and that is why Rom 7 uses the example of a widow being free from her husband. We are dead to the Law, and that is why we can no longer live in sin. Sin is not imputed where there is no Law.
Those who die are freed from the Law. That we read our legalism into Rom 6 (especially in isolation from Rom 7) is a bad sign.
It can be (we have no obvious markers for that). For you, though, it is not (Heb 10; “fearful expectation of judgement … treated the Spirit of Grace as an unworthy thing”), because you do not have peace, seeing as you live under judgement for what you do. Your debt has not been paid. For the suicide who believes, there is such a peace. Depression is human, Calvary’s peace is divine. You may be at peace as a human, when you have no peace before God: this is the case with people who feel good about their works—Pharisee or legalistic Christian—having peace with themselves, but not before God.
Who claimed thus? Merely that when we do fail to be upright, we are not condemned. As always: “Not under Law? You want believers to be mass murderers!” But St. Paul: “Sin is not taken into account where there is no Law. … When the Law came, sin sprang to life and I died.” Make your choice.
You sound like you do not yet realise you are one of them. You are a suicide. Slow, yes, but a suicide nonetheless.
You did not. I am the one who said that the only sin that drags them to Hell is not believing.
Quote me.
JUST A COMMENT ON DAVID’S MURDER AND ADULTERY. YOU SAY THAT GOD FORGAVE DAVID BUT THIS WAS ONLY BECAUSE HE SENT NATHAN TO REVEAL TO DAVID THAT GOD CALLED HIS DEEDS EVIL. SO IF DAVID WOULD NOT ACKNOWLEDGE HIS DEEDS OF COVETING, ADULTERY AND MURDER THEN HE WOULD HAVE DIED AND GONE TO HELL. DAVID ONLY ACKNOWLEDGED HIS SIN 9 MONTHS AFTER ALL HIS EVIL TOOK PLACE. HAD HE DIED BEFORE GOD SENT NATHAN THEN HE WOULD HAVE GONE TO HELL.