Theology Unplugged: An Invitation to Calvinism, Part 3

(1John 5:11, 12). “If anyone does not have THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST he does not belong to Him” (Rom. 8:9).) When Jesus comes to live inside of us to give us His eternal life, then we are saved. Paul says, “We shall be SAVED BY HIS LIFE” (Rom. 5:10); “We are SAVED BY the washing of REGENERATION (Titus 3:5); and “made alive with JESUS CHRIST by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED” ( past tense!- Eph. 2:5). This is God’s work of regeneration. It occurs when Jesus Christ baptizes us A) with the Holy Spirit, B) into His body, C)into His death and resurrection. This is the baptism that now saves us (1Pet. 3:21). We are made to die with Jesus Christ before Jesus comes to live inside of us to give us new life/regeneration (Rom. 5, 6, Col. 2) to save us. Our death with Christ is the real “spiritual death” and the new life we receive in regeneration is eternal life, given to us by the indwelling of Jesus Christ.

In this audio conversation, Michael, Tim and Sam argue for the total depravity of all mankind. They define this as people are born “spiritually dead” like a still born child. They argue that while people may do good things, no one without their nature first being regenerated is able to desire the God of the Bible and put their faith in Him.

Romans 3 was quoted in part as the basis for this understanding of the total depravity of all mankind. However, I believe this is a misreading of Paul’s intention in quoting Psalm 14. The Psalmist is clearly not speaking of all mankind, so Calvinists seem to be accusing Paul of inserting his own theology using the Psalmists words, or eisegesis.

Ryan, I think this is an important observation. Rom. 3:10-18, from Ps 14 and 53 refer to “the fool who says in his heart there is no God.” It is the fool, believing there is no God, he will not have faith in God, therefore no imputed righteousness. The fool will not seek God or fear God. These Psalms contrast the fool to the righteous. In like manner there are the wicked, described in Ps 10 and elsewhere who says “there is no God” or “God has forgotten; He has hidden His face, He will never see” as he goes about his wickedness to the afflicted. The wicked are contrasted to the humble.

Men did not receive the new birth until Jesus Christ rose from the dead (1Peter 1:3). Men who lived prior to the resurrection pleased God through their faith. They did not have the characteristics of “Total Inability”. Even Cornelius was described as a devout man… by the angel who told him that Peter would speak words to him bywhich he would be saved (Acts 10:1-4; 11:14) by regeneration

Hi Melani,

Thanks for your comments. Of course, I would like to hear from one of the many Calvinists here, preferably from those giving us the invitation to it, how they defend the charge of eisegesis on Rom 3.

Men did not receive the new birth until Jesus Christ rose from the dead (1Peter 1:3).

First, in this passage, Peter is talking about the hope of the resurrection of the dead, which is yet to be fulfilled in any believer.

They did not have the characteristics of “Total Inability”. Even Cornelius was described as a devout man…

Right, but my argument is that the idea that all mankind is totally depraved, unable to comprehend his sin and repent and believe is not true for people in the NT NOR people in the OT. It has always been by faith; they had faith in the sure event of the Messiah to come, we have faith in the finished work He accomplished.

Michael/Tim/Sam or any willing Calvinist — will you respond to my comments on Rom…

CHALLENGE TO “TOTAL DEPRAVITY”
Eph. 2:5- We are not born dead, we are born living and walking in sin and the lusts of our flesh (Col. 1:7, Eph. 2:2, 3), and we need to “die to sin” (Rom. 6:2). After we place our trust into Jesus Christ, we are baptized into Christ’s death (Rom 6:3). The body of flesh with its sins, transgressions, and lusts was nailed on the cross (Gal. 2:20; Gal. 5:24; Rom. 6:6). We were in the state of being dead with Christ, in the sins and uncircumcision of our flesh, and buried with Christ we receive the circumcision made without hands in the removal of our body of flesh, before we are made alive with Jesus Christ, raised with Christ and seated with Christ in the heavenly (Col. 2:11-14; Eph. 2:1-6). WE HAVE DIED, and our life is now hidden with Christ in God” (Col. 3:3). If Christ be in you THE BODY IS DEAD because of sin, but the Spirit is life (Rom. 8:10), ”

Please note this is taught by prominent Reformed proponents following:

SUPPORT FROM REFORMED PROPONENTS (From sermons or Grudem’s Systematic Theology.)

When you put your faith in Christ, you die to your old self but rise to walk in newness of life. The old life has to be totally done away with and a new life has to come” (JOHN MACARTHUR- “The Resurrection: The Key to Everything”)

“Paul sees this present death and resurrection with Christ as a way of describing and explaining the change that the Holy Spirit brings about… It is as if the Holy Spirit reproduces Jesus’ death and resurrection in our lives WHEN WE BELIEVE IN CHRIST” (WAYNE GRUDEM, p. 842).

“There is a union between Christ and Christians … His death is our death…It is applied to us now through our faith… (Rom. 6:6)…So here again Paul makes it explicit that the death we died in verse 2 is a death with Christ (JOHN PIPER- “United With Christ in Death”)

SUPPORT FROM REFORMED PROPONENTS cont…

“And we’ve been learning that when you put your faith in Jesus Christ, you are united with Christ, die with Christ in a real spiritual death…And so in Christ we died … “you were put to death, you were put to death as far as the Law is concerned. It’s a passive verb which means you didn’t kill yourself, you couldn’t do that, it was a divine act. You were put to death and a violent word for death is used. You were violently put to death. And the aorist tense is used to remind them of a great historic reality that happened in a moment of time.” (JOHN MACARTHUR message Rom. 7:1-6)

“Here Paul’s references to baptism and faith indicate that our dying and our raising with Christ occur in this preset life, at the time we become Christians (WAYNE GRUDEM, pg. 842)

SUPPORT FROM REFORMED PROPONENTS cont…

“John says five times in 1John “We must be born of God”. And James says, “We have been begotten by God according to His will”. That’s a New Testament principle. We must be recreated. And that’s what happens when we receive Christ, the old man dies, the new man rises. “I am crucified with Christ”, that’s one ego dead, “nevertheless I live”, that’s a new life. (JOHN MACARTHUR – “The New Birth”)

“baptism in the Holy Spirit occurred at CONVERSION” (WAYNE GRUDEM pg. 768).

“The baptism of the Holy Spirit first of all unites us to Christ…unites us to His body. ‘For by one Spirit we have all been baptized into one body’…This work where the Spirit of God comes upon us and regenerates us” (JOHN MACARTHUR – “The New Birth”).

I’m sorry for the extra length. It is hard to rebutt (with strong support) a 500 year old teaching in 1000 characters.

Michael, Tim, Sam,

I have asked the same questions Melani has here in this thread. I too don’t understand the Calvinist belief that regeneration comes before faith. There seems to be way too many Scriputres that speak of new life in Christ coming after faith, not before faith. And I also believe that new life–regeneration–is the eternal life that we are given when we are united with Christ. It has been the way I have always read Scripture and been taught.

Can you please explain how you come to such a different conclusion?

Can any Calvinist out there explain to me the belief in regeneration before faith??

Come on guys, it seems to be one of your major points of doctrine. Someone surely must be able to explain to us Scripturally why you believe it and how you understand those verses that Melani brought up. This is something I have wondered about for years and have never had explained to me adequately at all.

Cheryl,
I would recommend John Murray’s Redemption Accomplished and Applied, Part II, Chpt. 1, for a pretty good explanation. It has to do with the logical order of applying redemption.
I’ll try to summarize and give an analogy (which is not perfect). Scripture teaches and most orthodox Christians believe in original sin (OS). Because of OS, Adam and his descendants are dead spiritually and their whole being (body, mind, will, emotions,etc.) are entirely corrupted. We are by nature children of wrath and dead (spiritually) in our trespasses and sin. In order to be able to respond to God’s calling unto Christ for salvation, we must be born again (see John 3). We can’t enter the kingdom of God unless that happens. So, there must be a work of the Holy Spirit whereby we are given a heart of flesh for our heart of stone – that is regeneration. This may take place minutes, days, or even years before we come to faith. For me, it took a couple of years. (if you want to know more let me…

Cheryl, (cont’d)
The analogy: A couple decide they want to have a baby (God’s calling); eventually they conceive – there is at the moment of conception, life (this would be regeneration). The baby doesn’t know it is and it takes 9 months for it to grow strong enough to be born. Most of us don’t know when we were regenerated, but all of a sudden our inclinations start to change. where we didn’t used to think of our sin and God’s holiness, now we begin to contemplate these things. Eventually that seed of faith given to us at regeneration has gotten large enough and strong enough to break through to the Light. See the parables and 1 Cor 1. As we evangelize we just plant seeds and God does with the seed as He sees fit.
Sorry this is so long

Grace and Peace
HV

Thanks Harley.

I’m not sure I understand something correctly of what you have said here. If I understand you correctly, you believe that you were made alive by God so that at some later date you could receive salvation.

Is receiving salvation in your understanding the point where you receive eternal life? Or do you believe the life you received at regeneration was actually eternal life?

If you believe the first–receiving salvation brings eternal life–then you have yourself being given life from God twice. I don’t see that in the Bible myself.

I am also wondering where you see forgiveness and justifcation happening in this order of things? And at what point are you actually united with Christ?

The whole Calvinist way of looking at all of this is so totally different then the way I have understood the Bible and been taught that it takes some doing for me to even wrap my mind around what you are saying here!

Cheryl,
I wasn’t very clear -sorry. When you are regenerated that is when you are made alive. Again the baby analogy or the seed analogy. My awareness of and my confession of Christ may come at some later time, but once God calls, He justifies, etc (Rom 8:29-30). Have to run see a patient – feel free to ask anything and I will try to write more later

Harley,

From the Murray book quoted here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040603100736/http://www.mvpca.com/mur-5.htm

With all these considerations in view, the order in the ap­plication of redemption is found to be calling. regeneration, faith and repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, glorification. When this order is carefully weighed we find that there is a logic which evinces and brings into clear focus the governing principle of salvation in all of its aspects, the grace of God in its sovereignty and efficacy. Salvation is of the Lord in its application as well as in its conception and accomplishment.

So sin causes spiritual death as we all know. How then could you be made alive several years before your sin was dealt with, Harley? How is it possible to walk around alive spiritually while sin hasn’t been taken care of through Jesus? That makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Sorry, but I just don’t get it.

Harley,

Your last comment must have been in moderation for some reason. It just showed up so I hadn’t read it before I wrote my second one to you. Will have to do some more thinking now that I have your answer.

Ryan,
Total depravity
A. What it is not…
1. Universal sinfulness (Rom. 3:23) -Scripture clearly teaches that all men are sinners, but the Reformed doctrine of total depravity means something more; it speaks of the condition, not the popularity, of sin
2. Extreme sinfulness (Jn. 19:11; 1 Tim. 3:13) -total depravity is not teaching that man is as sinful as he possibly can be. Calvinism grants that some sins are worse than others and some sinners are worse than others. Total depravity means that all men are sinners
3. Animalization -if a person goes too far in sin he becomes an amoral being just like the animals (Calvinism denies that total depravity means this). The human being has been given special revelation which he defies
4. Demon possession -this is not what we are talking about when we talk about total depravity
5. Incapable of salvation -total depravity means that man cannot save himself, but it doesn’t mean that it is impossible for him to be saved.
I will continue…

Cont’d – . Description of total depravity -total depravity means mainly that the very nature of man has been so affected by original sin, that every part of his being is affected by evil; that total depravity totally affects, infects, defects man.
1. Exhaustive corruption of man’s being -there is not a single part of our constitution that has not been in some way infected by sin. Man is worse than he thinks; he is worse than he wants to admit
2. Sin because we are sinners (Matt. 7:11) -total depravity exposes our sin (Jeremiah 17:9- The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?). We know no limit to the ability to contrive means to explain away the rottenness and sinfulness of the inclinations of the heart
3. Corruption infects angels and humans (Jn. 8:44 -“you are of your father the devil”) -the same depravity is seen in Satan and humans. There is something demonic in total depravity, in our very natures. Jonathan Edwards said “There is…

cont’d again – “There is enough evil in the heart of even the best of sinners to make another Devil.”
4. Source of evil deeds (Matt. 7:16-18) -from this cesspool of the evil springs up all evil; because our nature is evil, our deeds are evil. Jesus said that if the root is bad, the fruit will be bad.
5. Spreads to all parts of our being (Rom. 3) -there is not a single part of man that is untainted by sin. Romans 3 states that all men are sinful, but it also gives a close diagnosis of how sin has affected each man; sin has invaded our words, our thoughts, our feelings, our bodies, our consciences, and our bodies.
6. Depravity affects our good deeds (Rom. 7:18) – “For I know that nothing good dwells in me”; sin has spread throughout our being in such a way that it has forced out all good, so that even the good deeds we perform are tainted and marred by sin. We cannot do, perform or even think an impeccable deed or thought. Calvin once commented that men are not various shades of…

again – Calvin once commented that men are not various shades of colors, or even of black and gray and white; rather all men are all just slight shades of a very dark black. We instinctively rebel against that.
7. Sinful bodies (Rom. 7:23) –sin has affected our bodies; we share humanity with Adam and Eve, but none of us are exactly as they were before they fell. Before they fell their bodies were not affected by sin at all, they wouldn’t have died. Death is the outcome of sin and physical mortality, illness, disease and weakness can all be traced back ultimately to our fallen nature. Only Christ had no sin, and therefore, Christ had a perfect body. Sin affects our bodies so that our bodies and bodily desires become, as Paul says, instruments of wickedness-we sin with our bodies. Our bodies, because of their fallenness, are stirred to temptation. In that sense then, sin inhabits our bodies not because our bodies are sinful in and of themselves but because of the inherited sin (Romans…

and yet again – (Romans 3:23-“sin in the members of my body”); so what we do with our bodies is sinful-we can’t say “I just can’t help it”
8. Depraved emotions (2 Thes. 2:12) -sin has infected our emotions, our feelings, our affections-Paul says in 2nd Thessalonians 2:12 that “we take pleasure in unrighteousness.” We sin because we like it. That’s not to say that emotions are sinful in themselves (Jesus had emotions, i.e. he wept, he felt tired, etc. but he never sinned); but sin has permeated all of our emotions: Joy, sorrow, anger and pain. This is why we should never trust our feelings; our feelings are depraved, our feelings are deceitful
9. Sinful desires
a) Worldly lusts (Titus 2:12)
b) Deceitful lusts (Eph. 4:22)
c) Foolish and harmful lusts (1 Tim. 6:9)
d) Fleshly lusts (1 Pt. 2:11)
e) Ungodly lusts (Jude 18)
9. Depraved minds (Titus 1:15; Eph. 4:17; 1 Tim. 3:8; 6:5; Rom. 3:11; Prov. 3:12; Jer. 4:22) -depravity creates in us sinful habits (we sin because…

again -(we sin because we have developed a habit or reflex action to certain situations or certain things. We need to break these habits). Man is morally blind; were talking about the noetic effects of sin-how sin affects the processes of thought, so that we are sinful in the very ways that we think or don’t think. Man’s mind is controlled by his nature and because his nature is evil so are all his thoughts. Consequently, man is deceived: he is deceived by Satan, by others, by himself and even tries to deceive God. Jeremiah 17:9-“the heart is deceitful above all things”-we are capable of telling lies to ourselves, not to mention others. Hebrews 3:13 speaks of the deceitfulness of sin-because man’s mind has been dominated by sin, he is susceptible to believing error and heresy. Sin renders us gullible. Man does not and cannot understand spirits will prove (Romans 3:11-“there is none that understand”). Man only understands the Gospel because God suddenly turns the light on. We…

Harley,
In general the answers you gave are accurate, but not for the group you attribute them to. The qualification that needs to be made is that this is the understanding of most Orthodox “Protestant” Christians rather then simply Orthodox Christians. The entire Eastern Church would have a slightly different take on exactly how original sin works. Additionally the Catholic Church has always been a bit sketchy on the issue.

(we sin because we have developed a habit or reflex action to certain situations or certain things. We need to break these habits). Man is morally blind; were talking about the noetic effects of sin-how sin affects the processes of thought, so that we are sinful in the very ways that we think or don’t think. Man’s mind is controlled by his nature and because his nature is evil so are all his thoughts. Consequently, man is deceived: he is deceived by Satan, by others, by himself and even tries to deceive God. Jeremiah 17:9-“the heart is deceitful above all things”-we are capable of telling lies to ourselves, not to mention others. Hebrews 3:13 speaks of the deceitfulness of sin-because man’s mind has been dominated by sin, he is susceptible to believing error and heresy. Sin renders us gullible. Man does not and cannot understand spirits will prove (Romans 3:11-“there is none that understand”). Man only understands the Gospel because God suddenly turns the light on. We cannot…

Michael,
I am aware of that – Ryan asked for a Calvinist reply.:)

We cannot receive spiritual truth (1st Corinthians 2:14-” The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned”), on the contrary, we think we’re right (there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end leads to death). We have no understanding in our minds; “we are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge”. We can invent new ways to sin and often are quite adept at doing that. The most penetrating analysis of the noetic effects of sin are found in Romans 1, Paul’s argument that men know, in their hearts, that God exists; but they suppress it, they hold it down in unrighteousness. They become futile in their speculations; professing to be wise they become fools, Paul says.
10. Depraved conscience (Titus 1:15; Heb. 9:14; Rom. 2:1) -God gave man the inborn sense of His existence and of right and wrong, but sin has affected even this gift…

(Titus 1:15-“both their mind and their conscience are defiled”). We have by nature an evil conscience. Because their consciences are depraved, the natural man finds it easy to justify sin because they call evil good and good evil. We become masters at making excuses for sin; but before God, Paul says in Romans 2:1, we are without excuse.
11. Depraved will –there is no reasonable case to be made for saying that sin affects all these areas but there is one area of our constitution that is unaffected by sin and that is the freedom of our will. Within each man there is a will, the faculty of choice, which also has been affected by sin; so much so that it is no longer capable of making the right choice.

Harvey,
I’m wondering if you are aware that a Classical Arminian would agree with 99.9% if not 100% of what you have written lol.

To all,
Sorry for such a long post but I felt that I needed to do my best to completely answer Ryan. That’s all folks:)

Michael, as you know this is a summary (very brief) of a few of his positions:
. Reinterpreted Rom. 7 -Arminius decided that the last half Romans 7 was describing a pre-Christian, pre-conversion life. If Paul there is speaking of the unconverted man, then his will Arminius reasoned is not totally depraved and unable to seek after God and furthermore, man inherits the bent to sin from his parents going back to Adam but this doesn’t necessarily mean that he inherits Adamic guilt.
B. Rejected doctrine of election Rom. 8 -Arminius rejected the doctrine of election based on sheer sovereign grace and instead came up with the position that election was based upon foreseen faith: that God foresaw the response to the call of the gospel and by way of a response to that response decides to elect His people

Michael,
The biggest problem that I see is that in Rom 8:29, Paul doesn’t say foreknows faith, just God foreknows. If salvation is based on man choosing then it is never secure – man may choose to not believe also. Then the rest of Paul’s argument is false because we might not ever be glorified.

Harvey,

Going back to your comment #15 and my comment # 16.

I would still like an answer to the question asked in comment # 16.

And in #15 you said that when a man is regenerated he receives life. Is this eternal life or some other kind of life you are referring to? I have missed it if you have made that clear.

Harvey,
I’m not sure of your logic in 32. It says that God predestined based upon “foreknowing”. We could have an extended discussion about what the concept of “foreknowledge” meant in the ANE. Many lluminaries brighter than myself disagreed over this with no resolution. However, if we just take it at it’s base we must ask what God is foreknows that leads to predestination. I could be that God foreknows that He will save them. If this is the case one must ask why the two separate words are used since at the end of the day they mean the same thing. It would have been sufficient to simply say God predestined them. The Arminian position is of course that God predestined them based upon foreknowledge of their choice. Now here is where the logical problem comes in. God knows you will choose to allow him to save you by infallible foreknowledge. Since what God knows through foreknowledge will in fact happen there is no way for you not to be glorified per the rest of the…

I’m going to keep asking this question until hopefully some Calvinist sees it and answers it!

What kind of life is it that you believe you receive when you are regenerated? It seems the Bible is very clear that eternal life come after faith. However, the Calvinist position is that regeneration comes before faith. (And as a matter of fact, Harvey said in comment # 12 that he was regenerated–had life–for several years before he came to faith.) So I don’t see how this can be eternal life you are talking about here. So what is this life you are given?

For myself, I have never seen that there are two types of life that God gives us spiritually. So I simply do not understand this doctrine at all.

Cheryl,
I did not come to Christ until I was 34. Up until 18 month before that (give or take) I was at best agnostic, mostly atheist. Then really out of the blue I was impressed?? that I should take my family to church. Let me stress that I NEVER thought about church, God, sin, etc. Looking back I think that was when the Holy Spirit changed (began to change, whatever) my heart. But I fought against that. I (LCMS) but did not “believe.” I went to church for my kid. Over the next few months a lot happened. I became aware of sin, specifically my sin, need for a Savior. Any way, eventually I accepted Christ as Lord and Savior. The seed was planted, it was watered (most of the time without my being intellectually aware?) and God caused the growth. While I was spiritually dead I never thought about spiritual things. But God called me and drew (dragged kicking and screaming at first) to Christ. I had to be made alive to discern spiritual things. I was justified when I submitted…

Harvey,

You are LCMS?? Are you aware that Calvinists and Lutherans disagree quite extensively on some of these issues? For instance Lutherans believe that one can have faith and then later reject it. In other words Lutheran’s believe that someone can lose their salvation, something Calvinists deny.

Cheryl,
I’m too long winded:)
If we want to get very technical, our names were written in the Lamb’s Book of Life before the foundation of the world. So is that when we received eternal life? From our perspective we would say no, I received it when I confessed Christ. But to go back to the baby analogy, what kind of life does the baby have at conception? From the parents perspective it is Life. From the baby’s? S/he doesn’t know s/he’s alive. Does that make him/her any less alive? I know Ryan doesn’t like mysteries, but this is a mystery of God’s. We see from the human side of things and we don’t know anything except what is in Scripture about the workings of God. Hope I answered your question.
I’ll be glad when it is warm enough to ride my “Harvey” Davidson:) 🙂
Harley

Michael,
The LCMS was just the first church I went to because it was the closest to my house. I accepted Christ at a charismatic church, after a while went to AG church, then helped start another charismatic church in another state, then a few Baptist churches, and have been in the PCA for the last 15 years. During all of the church hopping I studied quite a bit of theology (I’m a doctor and wanted to know what I believed) and my prayer was always “Lord, lead me in Your truth”, kind of stolen from Augustine’s “Command what you will, grant what you command” and Paul’s “If you don’t understand now, don’t worry, God will show you(my translation:)).
So that was a long answer to say yes I’m aware of that.
Harley

Sorry Harvey, I’m afraid you still haven’t answered my question! 🙂

To me the Scriptures seem very plain that life, eternal life anyway, comes after faith, not before faith. So I don’t know how you can say you have life before you have faith unless it is a different kind of life altogether.

And I agree with you about the baby–the just conceived child isn’t likely aware of it’s life at all. However, I don’t think that is an accurate analogy here since the Bible says our eternal life starts after we have faith, that it comes through faith. That is different then saying we have life before that and are just not aware of it. For the analogy to work, I think we would have to say that the baby actually isn’t alive until he/she has self awareness and that is a place I am not at all willing to go and do not believe to be true.

So I still just don’t see how this works. And I don’t know you can be given eternal life before your sins have been dealt with which comes after faith.

Makes no sense to me.

Harley,

Those of us that aren’t Calvinists would probably say of your experince before you came to Christ that the Spirit was drawing and convicting you, not that you were regenerated or given new life, at that time. We would say that your new life/regeneration actually happened when you came to Christ. That would certainly be my understanding of what you spoke of in comment # 36.

(By the way, I’m not sure how I made the transition from Harley to Harvey, but from the clever way you brought it to our attention, I’ll bet it is something you have dealt with before! 🙂 Sorry about that.)

Oh boy, I don’t have time for this discussion, but need to clarify something.

Harley,

It’s problematic to place the chronology on regeneration that you have. Cheryl is right to point out that Scripture indicates life coming through faith. Where she is wrong is to confuse “with,” “through,” “in” etc. with “after.” We are made alive through faith. Regeneration is the act that comes in and at the same moment we believe. It logically, not chronologically, precedes faith, but chronologically happens at that very moment. Hence, we are made alive in the giving of faith. Ergo, we are born again at the moment of faith. Where we would disagree with Cheryl is that faith produces our being born again, and this is not what the Scriptures Melani pointed out say.

I think you may be confusing the drawing of the Father with regeneration. Although one can say that they are the same thing, it must be concluded either way that this is one and the same moment that God is giving faith.

Michael,

Just as a contribution to the conversation on foreknowledge . . . from what I remember, its object is always persons, not actions. Hence, even Christ is foreknown before the foundation of the world (1 Pet 1:20). It seems to describe some sort of relationship. Think about the word “know” itself in these terms (e.g., Christ saying He never knew those who practice disobedience, or eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ who He has sent, etc.). So I’m not sure anything, for either side, can be squeezed out of the word.

Hi Hodge,

Been wondering where you went!

You said, Cheryl is right to point out that Scripture indicates life coming through faith. and, Where we would disagree with Cheryl is that faith produces our being born again,

If you have time, would you clarify what you mean by the second quote where you said how you would disagree with me? What do you mean by produces in this statement?

I mean that you guys seem to be confusing faith as that which initiates our being made alive. Our being made alive happens in the same instance as His giving us our faith. It’s the same event. So it’s not our exercising faith that then merits the gift of regeneration. It’s His giving to us faith and in it, with it, through it, is causing us to be born again to life. So regeneration and faith go hand in hand rather than faith bringing about God’s favor so that He merits us with regeneration. That becomes problematic for we who believe in TD because the question becomes how one believes in what he cannot see until he is born again (John 3:3).
But it’s more nuanced than what I’m making it out to be here, so I leave it for other Calvinists to work out. I just needed to make that clarification.

“Hi Hodge,

Been wondering where you went!”

I know. I wanted to answer the questions posed, but I’m working on numerous projects at the moment, so I don’t want to get too involved in another Calvinist discussion right now (as you know how these things always go 🙂 )

To Michael and Sam Storms particularly, HarleyVol, Hodge, and any other Calvinist,

Calvinism rises or falls on your definition of regeneration. Would you please answer these questions about this crucial topic.

1. How many different kinds of “LIFE” do you see mentioned in the Bible?

To hold to the Reformed view, you must believe there are 3 different kinds of “LIFE” given by God in the Bible. 1st life in the flesh, 2nd kind of life given in regeneration prior to faith, and 3rd eternal life given sometime after faith.

The Bible says, “CHRIST is our “LIFE” (Col. 3:4). And, “He who has the SON has the “LIFE” (1John 5:12).

2. What kind of “LIFE” does one have when Jesus Christ comes to live in his heart?

The Bible says, “He who does not have the SON OF GOD does not have the “LIFE” (1John 5:12)
3. Can a man have new life without Jesus Christ living in him?

The Bible says, “If any man have not THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST he is none of his” (Rom. 8:9). “…this “LIFE” is “in HIS SON” (1John 5:11).

4. Can a man receive new life from God before being placed “in Christ”?

The Bible says, “…MADE ALIVE WITH JESUS CHRIST, by grace you have been saved” (Eph. 2:5)

5. Can a man be made alive with Jesus Christ without Jesus Christ coming to dwell inside of him?
6. Is a man saved by being made alive with Jesus Christ before he places his trust in Christ?
7. ***Did Jesus Christ, second person of the Trinity, come to dwell in men’s hearts before His resurrection?

The Bible states that there are two births.
FLESH- “That which is born of the flesh is flesh” (John 3:6). This birth was produced by corruptible seed (1Peter 1:23). “The life of the flesh is in the blood”.

SPIRIT- “That which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:6). The Seed of the New Birth is incorruptible, and it lives and abides forever (1Peter 1:23, 25).

8. What kind of life comes from incorruptible, forever alive Seed in the new birth?

The Bible says, “You are not in the flesh but in the spirit IF IT SO BE THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU” (Rom. 8:9).

9. Can a person “be spirit” (That which is born of the Spirit is spirit), as a result of the new birth, without having the Spirit of God dwell in them?

10. What verses in the Bible speak about the “third” kind of life (not of the flesh, and not eternal life) given in Reformed Regeneration.

Personally I believe there are only two births on this earth, and there are only two kinds of life for men on this earth—life in the flesh and eternal life. Eternal life is given in the New Birth, and a man is born again when Jesus Christ comes to live inside of him to give him God’s gift of eternal life. This is God’s gift of Salvation. Jesus comes to dwell in our hearts THROUGH FAITH (Eph. 3:17). We receive the promise of the Holy Spirit THROUGH FAITH (Gal. 3:14). Faith precedes the gift of eternal life and salvation.

I do not believe that you can identify any Scripture which suggests a “third kind of life”.