The first in my new “Questions I Hope No One Asks” Series
As an evangelical Christian, I seek to share Christ with others. Often, in doing so, people have a lot of questions. Many times these are “soft-ball” questions about which I am more confident in my response. However, there are many questions concerning the Christian faith that that are much more difficult to answer and about which I am less confident in what I have to say. Most of the time it is not simply that I don’t have the answer, but that they are questions that I myself would love to present before the throne of God.
Questions I hope no one asks #1:
Why doesn’t God save everyone?
Insufficient Answers:
“Because he does not interfere with free will.”
This is the answer that would be given by some of my friends who don’t hold to the same particular theological persuasions that I have. I think it is the best of all the insufficient answers out there and does contain a certain element of truth. The idea is that God provides the means for salvation for everyone, but it is up to the individuals to choose God. As the old saying goes, “God casts a vote for you. Satan casts a vote against you. You hold the tie-breaking vote.” The emphasis is on the “you.” God has done his part, you are now the master of your faith and the captain of your soul.
However, this is problematic for me for some substantial reasons. Most importantly, I don’t think Scripture teaches this. I believe that we all have cast our vote against God. Hence, we have already exercised our “free will,” submitted our ballot, and checked the box next to “I stand with Adam; I hate God.” Satan has no vote for anyone. He only casts a ballot for himself. Therefore, we are in a very precarious situation. Humanity took a stand with Adam in Eden and exercised its freedom collectively and voted against God. In this sense, we are “in Adam.” Our choice was made “in and with” him (Rom. 5:12-21). If anyone is to be saved, our will and choice already made “in Adam” must be changed from the outside. In the end, God’s “vote” or election is all that matters. If we are to be saved, we must have our vote vetoed.
“So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy [or vetoes]” (Rom 9:16).
Yes, man’s choice does matter. But mankind was condemned long ago with Adam. Our wills are in bondage to our sin. We have no ability to turn to God or choose him (Rom. 3). If anyone is to be saved, God must sovereignly do the saving.
But, unfortunately, the question remains: Why doesn’t he save everyone?
“God does not love everyone.”
I also know many people who take this “out.” For them, God’s only saves those whom he loves. For them, there are many who are hated by God. Therefore, God does not save them because they are objects of his hatred.
Although I have a knee-jerk reaction to such emotionally rapping explanations, my emotional disposition toward anything has no vote in truth. I could not say, “This cannot be. I would not serve a God who is so vindictive, trivial, and evil.” If God is this way, then so be it. He is still God and I am not. However, this option does not find any valid biblical support. The Bible says that “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son” (John 3:16). As well, Titus 3:4 says that his love is for all mankind. According to 2 Pet 3:9 he does not desire any to perish. While I believe that God has a particular type of “elective love” for those who are being saved, I don’t believe the others are hated in an unqualified sense. God loves all his creation.
But, again, this begs the question: Why doesn’t he save everyone?
“He is going to save everyone.”
This is my favorite answer. This is the answer I want to be true. Give me enough reason to find a loophole to get out of the doctrine of hell, and I will take it. Help me to find a way to get everyone a reservation in the kingdom of God, and I will bite. However, I have searched and searched for such a loophole and cannot find it. There is an ever terrifying truth that escalates in the Scriptures concerning the reality of ultimate destruction for so many of God’s creation. “Enter by the narrow gate,” Christ warns, ” for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it” (Mat 7:13-14). And Christ even makes it more clear when someone asks him the question of the hour:
“And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He [Christ] said to them, ‘Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’ There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out (Luk 13:23-28).
Though I would like to opt for some sort of universal salvation (universalism), I find no warrant other than wishful thinking. Therefore, I yield to a source greater and higher than my opinion and remain confused by the question, Why doesn’t God save everyone?
My Answer:
The best answer I have is “I don’t know.” God has not seen fit to tell us why all are not saved. We know these basic facts: 1) All people are part of a race that chose against God. 2) God did not have to save anyone and he would still be just. 3) God loves all people. 4) God has the power to save all people. 5) God is only saving certain people.
But we also know that God could have told us why he is not saving everyone, but he has chosen not to. There are many things that God has kept in the secret council of his will (Deut. 29:29). He is not saying, “This is for me to know and you to find out, nah, nah, na boo boo.” He is saying, “Listen. There are some things that are good questions, but I have seen fit to withhold the answer. I am good. Trust me when I say I love everyone. Trust me when I say I know what I am doing. Trust me that I know best. Can you trust me?” Many of us take the moral high-ground on God and say “No. You are condemned by my hand.” Others adjust what the Scriptures say to make things more palatable. In the end, I just encourage all of us to trust him. This is what faith is all about friend. He does know what he is doing, even when we don’t have the answers.
107 replies to "Questions I Hope No One Asks: Why Doesn’t God Save Everyone?"
What if God desires to be glorified for the whole range of his attributes? In the salvation of some he is glorified as well as the damnation of others he is glorified. Let me know your thoughts peoples 🙂
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? — Rom 9:21-24
,,,if one has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ Who died on the cross, rose on the 3rd day for the propitiation of our sins. If you can answer that question then you don’t have to ask if you are one of the elects or not.”
This is best biblical argument I’ve heard so far for either side. Thanks.
Teleologist,
Your statement about accepting Jesus is great. I agree.
However, my point was I think Calvinist theology leaves a person wide open for terrifying doubts, if that is the proper word, in just the way GoldCityDance expressed. He said he wasn’t “convinced” that he is one of the elect. I don’t know how that thought could be anything but terrifying.
And I am not at all sure I know why you asked me if I am a univeralist or if I believe in hell. But the answer to the first question is no and to the second yes. And the answer to that second question is why I think that the idea that God deliberately chooses to leave some to be tormented eternally there with no chance for escape, or in the more extreme forms of Calvinism even actively predestined them for that fate, is such a very terrifying thought. I don’t know how one could live with the thought that you could be in that category and the only solution was just to submit to God anyway as GoldCityDance said above.
Hodge,
I can’t help wondering what answer it is you said you are impressed with? I had just spoken to two completely different statements by two completely different people. And we don’t usually agree on these issues at all as you know.
Cheryl,
This one:
“I don’t know teleologist, it seems to me you are quibbling about words here. Saying that God picks someone because of something He likes in them but that doesn’t make them merit salvation just doesn’t seem to work in my mind.
Besides if God chooses some people over others because of some quality he sees in them he likes, (whether that is the flavor of ice cream they prefer or whatever!) only begs the question of why didn’t God create everyone so that they would have that quality that He prefers then so he could save them all? It seems to me that brings you right back to square one.”
I would add that I think there is also confusion as to what constitutes good and why people, believer or unbeliever, do it. If it’s source is ultimately God, then it would seem circular to suggest that God produces good in a person and then chooses that person because of the good performed.
Hodge,
Thanks for clarifying. I thought that must be the case but I wasn’t sure.
It is impossible to answer logically. “I don’t know” or “You wouldn’t understand” are our only logical (albeit poor) answers because our THEOLOGY is so ILLOGICAL to them.
God doesn’t operate within logic – I get that. The point is, when an unbeliever asks this LOGICAL question (“Why?”), they want a LOGICAL answer. But all we have to offer them are THEOLOGICAL machinations that they neither believe, value, nor understand. Our concocted theological answers (to them) are simply insufficient.
Here’s the problem: Christians believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving. Yet it is clear from scripture that everyone is NOT saved, according to Revelation.
LOGICAL problems with our THEOLOGY (this doesn’t make our theology incorrect, but it is illogical):
1) Odd love: Our all-loving God knew BEFOREHAND that He was creating people that would go to hell. That’s not very loving for the ones in hell!
2) Batting average: Most Christians think most people *won’t* go to heaven (narrow way). But let’s say 50% make it. Even then, to only end up with half of the souls – probably much less than half?? That’s not very good for an omnipotent God.
3) Satan’s “defeat”: Satan’s whole purpose is to thwart God. If that many people are going to hell, then I don’t see how Satan was “defeated.” He’s doing better than God!
4) The ineffective death of Jesus Christ: God killed his own son to provide the way for ALL MANKIND to be saved. Yet ONLY A FEW are actually saved? That makes God’s plan of salvation both ineffective and brutal! This is the best an omnipotent, omniscient GOD could do???
Again, God does not operate within logic. God trumps logic. Our God IS good and whatever he does is RIGHT. But LOGIC is what matters to THEM. And all we have to offer is theology. We’ve convinced ourselves our theology is logical, but it isn’t. Nor does it need to be – God is still good! But “God is still good” is a wholly…
… unsatisfying, illogical answer for the unbeliever.
Sorry, got cut off from the end of my previous post
I have been reading back over my conversation here with Teleologist.
There is a point I think I need to clarify here because I am not certain that it came across like it should have. I have never understood faith or turning to God in faith as a work that makes us merit salvation. While God says we must have faith to come to him and that we can’t please Him without it, Ephesians 2:8-9 contrasts faith and works and makes it clear that we are not saved by works.
WOW…Good post CMP. I am pretty much, what most would call a street people. I guess what I am saying is, I take the time out to study and try and understand what the true meaning of God’s word is, but, i also try and keep it all in laymans terms so I can better connect with those who don’t know Christ Jesus as their Saviour. I am amazed at what I have seen here on the post. My burden here is to try and understand what the basis people are talking from. As you (CMP) have used before…how is their stage set. With the understanding I have now, I would answer the question this way: There is evedence throughout the Bible that not all are going to make the journey to the NEW Heaven. God is a loving God…He loves all his creation. I also believe He wants all to be in heaven. He has set up a way for it to happen. Sin is a seperation from God. God the Father sent His only Son for the perfect sacrifice of sin and that we may recieve Grace. So Grace is the only way to fix the seperation. Through the Blood of Jesus Christ that is. So my understanding is we can only recieve Grace through salvation. Which goes back to the question How do we know we are saved (recieved salvation)? But it makes perfect sense to me that throguh Salvation (which is a process) we are saved. Bottom line – not everyone is going to complete the process. I do not want to establish that intercessing of prayer is discounted nor God’s encouragement either. Can influance cross the lines of “Free Will?” I hope not. Especially as we would study the word “COMPEL.” God Speed!
Cheryl,
The reason I asked you the universalist and hell question was because I didn’t want to make any assumption on where you stood. It was better to just ask.
I think there is a difference between the understanding and acceptance of the salvific gospel message from the doctrine of soteriology, i.e. how are we saved. I think Calvinism and Arminianism is a debate between soteriological doctrines. I am basically a Calvinist but I think some aspects of TULIP can be modified to accommodate questions like the ones in the OP.
This is one of the Scriptural reasons why we have Calvinism doctrines. Salvation is an unmerited gift and faith is a manifestation of salvation. From a Calvinistic view even that faith to believe in God comes from God, which brings us back to our original question and thus my modification of TULIP.
Mike,
I suspect Michael will be asking these same questions in his hope no one ask series, but let me take a quick stab at them here.
Before I can respond to this criticism I need answers to these questions. The premise of this criticism is that if anyone goes to hell then God cannot be all-loving. Why? Does love negate the existence of pain? Can you give an objective logical and ethical justification as to why one negates the other?
Statistically I guess it depends what you are trying to do. If you are trying to shoot a bullet across 1 million parsecs at a target the size of a dime then 50% is pretty good. Maybe you can explain what would be good? Would 100% be good? Would something like the movie Groundhog Day where you can do anything you want and have zero consequences the next day be 100% good?
Only if you define victory as how many people goes to hell. What if I define defeating Satan as him being cast into the lake of fire?
What if EVERYONE that Christ died for are saved? What if EVERYONE Christ guarded are saved? What if EVERYONE Christ called are saved? Would you say that this is the best God can do?
teleologist,
I would love pursuing this conversation some more. But I realize we are getting quite off of the actual topic of this thread into some other aspects of this whole debate. To avoid derailing things competely, I am going to back out of any further discussion on Calvinism in general. I reckon I have probably taken it too far already in getting us off topic.
Cheryl,
Some other time then, or if you want, we can continue this on my blog.
Teleologist, I understand what you’re saying and don’t necessarily disagree with any of it. My point is that unbelievers don’t see this as logical at all. They see it as Christians “working the angles” to make what we believe appear to be logical. They don’t buy it. Why? Because they’re looking at it from a natural, human perspective rather than a spiritual one. No matter how you explain it, they see a God who supposedly loves everyone tormenting them forever in Hell.
That’s why this is a question I never want to be asked, either 🙂 The answer isn’t one they’re going to understand.
Mike, I agree with that.
“The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14, ESV)
God, who knows each and every star by name, and even each and every molecule in the universe, is beyond our comprehension in some of His ways.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
Thanks for the good post: good for the mind and heart.
Truth Unites . . .
That was about as lame a response as I’ve ever encountered in a forum such as this one. I could answer with a similar response but touted toward my system, as you did with yours. Hence, take it up with the Boss.
Thanks for the effort, though. The Boss bless.
Ryan,
I was under the impression that Paul wrote, “And you were dead IN the trespasses and sin . . .” (Eph. 2:1 ESV). Barnes notes: “There is not anywhere a more explicit proof of depravity than this, and no stronger language can be used. They were ‘dead’ in relation to that to which they afterward became alive — i. e., to holiness.” (link) It is my opinion that Calvinists and Classical Arminians (e.g. Arminius and the Remonstrants) are spot on with regard to total depravity and total inability.
[…] and Pen has a great series going: Questions I Hope No One Asks. See Why Doesn’t God Save Everyone? (with follow-up) and Why Did God Put Satan in […]
[…] Why doesn’t God save everyone? […]
What about the answer nobody has thought of? We are all saved because Jesus died for us. Ever since that point, all people that died have been saved and all those who died prior to that event were brought to heaven (which is why Jesus went there for three days). Think about it. God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. I purposefully stopped there. The reason is because this next part doesn’t make sense. Only a select few were around when Jesus lived and many more “claimed” messiahs existed around the time of Jesus. How is “the world” supposed to believe in Jesus? Think about it. They didn’t have internet.
So where did the belief in Jesus as a requirement come from? The answer: Constantine at the First Council of Nicaea. Constantine, the Roman Emperor i.e. the head of the Roman Catholic Church, where he literally decided whether or not Jesus was going to be considered divine i.e. a God, or not. That’s right, it is proven fact. Research it yourself. The members of the Fist Coucil of Nicaea decided whether or not you believe Jesus is God. The goal was to create a unity amongst Christians i.e. to tell all people who believe in the teachings of Jesus what is true and what is false. Constantine first and foremost wanted power. It is of my opinion that the idea that one must BELIEVE Jesus saved them in order to be saved came into existence and was added to the Bible. It now should seem obvious why this would be an important addition to Constantine. Constantine was trying to convert EVERYONE in Rome from Paganism to Christianity. If every person was saved regardless of whether they converted from Paganism to Christianity, he could not accomplish this goal.
God so loved the world that he sent his only son… in the hopes that he could save a couple of people who happened to live at the time of Jesus and in the same general area of the middle east. God just didn’t love Native Americans and Asians and Europeans very much… yet we are still going to use the term “world”… because we like contradicting ourselves. Believe what you want people. I’ll believe what makes sense.
God is not beyond my comprehension. Sorry, he isn’t. I can comprehend knowing all of the molecules in the universe. It’s called integrals in simple calculus. It’s a summation. it’s totally comprehensible… just like God.
Actually, I can prove that it is impossible to believe in something that you can’t comprehend… so your statement about not comprehending God is a contradiction. Saying you can believe in something without being able to comprehend it is like saying you can walk to a place that exists outside of our three-dimensional coordinate system. Humans exist in three-dimensional space. Therefore, you can not go to a place that isn’t in three-dimensional space because you don’t exist there. Likewise, you can not believe something that you can not comprehend. If you don’t comprehend it, you can’t even begin to mentally grasp the thing in order to believe it. It’s like a person from the 1600s saying they believe in I-pods…. the difference being at least a person from the 1600s could comprehend an I-pod if it’s explained to them. You are saying that you believe something that can’t even possibly be comprehended EVER.
The statement is just false by definition.
As a society we have progressed, for the most part, from the idea that punishment exists for the purpose of Carma (you deserve it), and now see it’s existence for the purpose of rehabilitation i.e. when you do something impermissible, you are punished which discourages the subject from repeating the undesired behavior.
Under the old frame of reference i.e. you deserve to be punished, God’s heaven/hell paradigm seems reasonable. If you break the rules, you get what you deserve.
Under the enlightened view, God’s heaven/hell paradigm makes absolutely no sense. The punishment is eternal. There is no goal to rehabilitate the subject. The punishment is just senselessly harming the subject. God is effectively saying, “If you don’t want to be my friend, then I’m going to be your worst enemy.” How can this be taken any other way?
Answer: The premises of the question are patently false. God saves everyone and there is no such thing as Carma. God doesn’t seek revenge against those who reject him. If your Bible says that he does, then maybe you should start questioning your Bible rather than your own intuition.
If I ask a girl out on a date and she rejects me, I should douse her with gasoline and light her on fire…. because that’s what Jesus would do…
If the Lord will not give salvation to every person who repents and believes in Jesus Christ’s death & resurrection then why would any true believer have children knowing their beloved son or daughter would be rejected by the Lord? It would be better to never be born than to be cast into hell no matter how much you cry out to Jesus Christ to save you.
I’m very sad. I’ve struggled with faith and sometimes believed the Lord is mean. I am very glad I do not have children. I’m worried enough about my own salvation or rejection. Worrying about their salvation or rejection too would give me a heart attack.
Wow! 75 comments. I would love to take the time to read them all but will have to come back to do that later.
Right now, I want to add my two cents to the topic.
God has already “saved” everyone. He has already forgiven EVERYONE — those who lived before the crucifixion, those living at the time, and those who were yet to be born. When Jesus said, “Father, forgive them …” EVERYONE was forgiven.
Now, does that mean everyone will end up in Heaven? No.
We are told that Jesus “descended” and spent three days in Sheol. Back in Sunday School, we were led to believe that Jesus fought the Devil for three days to get the keys to death away from him.
Later I learned that Jesus preached and led a “train” out of Sheol when He was resurrected. He preached and SOME followed Him out, not all.
They saw with their own eyes their Salvation and decided not to follow Him out …
And so it will be with all of us. If they SAW Him and did not follow, then it is a sure thing that there will be those who have not seen Him and will refuse to follow Him. And by “Follow” I do not mean the ultra-right’s concept of keep the Laws and commandments. It means, get in the line and walk Follow the Leader to the Gates of Heaven.
I just left a comment over at the post on “Can Satan Be Saved?” and mentioned that I wanted to rewrite a story I had written years ago about The Gate to Heaven. I was in the middle of writing a book review column for my blog, but I think rewriting that story should become my priority 🙂
Thanks for another thought-provoking blog post.
This is not popular, especially in church lol.
1 Peter 4:6 NLT
That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead—so although they were destined to die like all people, they now live forever with God in the Spirit.
I can’t find anywhere in the Bible that you must accept prior tho death. That’s man made doctrine not biblical. Its gods will that none shall perish, my will and fleshly desire to sin is greater than gods will? I think not. But if everyone is called to be saved then there would be no evil, and you can’t know good without evil. And the Bible tells its who created evil.
Isaiah 45:7 KJV
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
The lord looked upon his creation and it was good. So how can you reconcile that? Unless you look at it seeing that evil is required for his eternal Good is everywhere, even hell.
Psalm 139:8 KJV
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
I’m kinda out on this free will business everybody talks about,I don’t think we all have free will. Look at pharaoh , then you also have to look at Romans 9.
Romans 9:11, 13, 15-18, 21-23 KJV
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Hath not the potter power over…
Let’s not forget….
Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, Jesus is Lord.
And who so ever believes with there heart and confess with there mouth Jesus is Lord shall be saved.
I can’t find anywhere I’m the Bible that says it had to be before death. Our minds just can’t comprehend life after death.
It’s a real witness to me to read the article and the commenters’ thoughts – as a young Christian certainly I haven’t always been so gracious as you have in the way I’ve shared the Word.
I’d like to encourage you all to please, please, please keep reading the Word and listening to the Spirit to find the answers (and the right questions!). Having been brought up believing in the righteous judgement and salvation of all, perhaps I can offer some thoughts for consideration to add to those already given:
– that the Father, who SWORE that “as I live, every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear allegiance”, will not go back on His Word
– that Jesus was not just wishing when he said “If I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto Me”
– that our “free” will is NOT stronger than the Will of the One who made us
– that the judgement at the end of the age is (Gk.) “aeonios”, age-during, not necessarily unending
– that God’s judgement is ALWAYS righteous, ALWAYS proportional (an eye for an eye), ALWAYS restorative (as a study of the Divine Law shows) – and FIERY for our carnal, sinful self
– that the Scriptures concerning those who are cast out into the outer darkness NEED NOT imply (and in light of so many other Scriptures COULD NOT imply) that anyone’s separation from God will be forever
– that it does not make sense that “God doesn’t get what God wants” and if He wants all men to be saved, they sure will be
– that (as previous commenters have pointed out) if the gospel was preached to the dead what limit can we impose on God’s mercy?
– that history shows that the mainstream belief of the early Church was that God’s judgement was restorative, refining in nature, burning up SIN, and that eternal damnation was a Roman philosophy absorbed into the church and perpetuated by centuries of teaching.
I am sure there are flaws in there which can be weeded out. But I look to and work to the day when all things are made new and all realise how GOOD…
… His Plan for Man is!!! JOY!
To those of you looking at Romans 9, I think Romans 11 also is relevant here.
If I am reading this correctly, it looks like God hardened the hearts of the Jewish people to make his grace apparent to the Gentiles, who would then make the Jews jealous enough to claim it for themselves.
In other words, even hardening hearts has a redemptive purpose.
Another section worth looking is Job 9:14-35. Although Job is describing the injustice of his sufferring, when I read it, it sound like a perfect outline of the problem of hell.
This tells me that God gets it. He understands how unjust and how unfair hell looks to us. What we have to understand is that there is reason for what he does and trust that, when all is revealed, we will agree with him.
I think we have to deal with Hell in the same way that Abraham dealt with being commanded to kill his son – with faith that somehow, someway, God will keep his promises and that he is good.
Greetings in the name of Christ,
I found your blog by googling “God does not love everyone”.
I agree. Romans 9.
I pray you may help me out…
My name is Andrew Bain and I live in Orlando FL with my wife and children.
We cannot find a congregation to fellowship here with.
All the congregations require me to subscribe to a man-made fallible doctrine-of-man human-tradition creed in order to become a member and one day maybe a deacon.
God willing, I’m interested in congregations around the world where I can be baptized and become a member/deacon and the Word of God can be my only creed.
If you would be so kind to call me on 4079149059 that would be helpful.
A filthy leper saved only by the perfect obedience and shed blood of the chosen anointed son of God, Jesus Christ,
Andrew Bain
[email protected]
http://psalms.pbwiki.com
http://youtube.com/andrewcbain
http://Godnoliar.com
http://facebook.com/BainAndrew
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the
ROMANS
— Literal Translation of the Holy Bible – Copyright 1976 – 2000 —
Chapter: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 |
[Bible Menu]
Romans 1
1 Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, separated to the gospel of God,
2 which He promised before through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
3 concerning His Son who came of the seed of David according to flesh,
4 who was marked out the Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord;
5 by whom we received grace and apostleship to obedience of faith among all the nations, for His name’s sake,
6 among whom are you also, called-out ones of Jesus Christ;
7 to all those who are in Rome, beloved of God, called-out saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of in all the world.
Michael, (also Walter)– I appreciated your openness in regard to “Why doesn’t God save everybody?” Evidently you have wrestled with this like so many others of us have.
Spurgeon once said “You can’t make an empty sack stand alone,” and that’s what you guys are trying to do.
The Arminian tries (unsuccessfully) to explain God out of a bad situation with the doctrine of free will; the Calvinist admits the bad situation and is faced with the monster God syndrome. No wonder Walter got shipwrecked, he is being asked to love a God who is presented as “He could care less” about most of humanity, including some we love very dearly. Michael, there is a much better case for an evangelical ultimate reconciliation than you have hooked into; keep searching. Brother Stumblefoot
Tiribulus–OK, Let’s make a note that we agree on one thing; that God does not have bad situations. But if the proposition that He creates disposable people to predestine them (either actively or passively) to an eternal Hell for His glory, then surely we have to recognize that most of mankind has a bad situation. In fact, it would be “Tiribulus,” wouldn’t we have to say?
I ask the extreme Calvinist to really look at the concept of our God that he (the extreme Calvinist) creates. Remove the blinders, get rid of the dark tinted glasses, recognize the incongruity of the extreme position. Isn’t our God better than that? No wonder Walter shipwrecked. (Take a new look at this Walter)
But in reality, it isn’t just the extreme Calvinist, it is the whole traditional view of an eternal Hell. Maybe we ought to circle the word eternal, that’s where the problem is. Might we recognize that there is indeed a Lake of Fire, but after that–God will wipe away all tears, death is no longer,
no sorrow, He makes all things new.
The word “eternal” comes to us English readers from a dubious translation. Translated literally, no scholar denies but that it is defined as an “age.” If it is used figuratively, might it not refer to a “quality of life,” rather than an eternity? John 17:3 comes to mind here.
I think we get our doctrine of living forever from the word “immortality,” (athanasia) rather than from “aion,” or “aionios.”
OK, to the traditionalist I say, You can have “Hell,” or more accurately Geheena and Hades; we recognize the reality of judgment and the Lake of Fire, but after all that–God makes all things new. This might help us with Ro.5:18&19; 1st Cor. 15:22; 2nd Pe.3:9; Phi.2:10&11;
and as I see it, the whole tenor of Biblical revelation.
I have to add this one thing before I close–It is all through the atonement, all glory to God for redemption through Christ! Thanks for listening. Brother…
Tiribulus–First, I assume Tiribulus is a pseudonym, and not a surname. i would not want to be disrespectful toward a family name, but Tiribulus is kind of fun and clevor. How did you think of that one? Are you really all that tiribulus? Would I feel safe playing monopoly with you?
As I understand your doctrine at this point, (correct me if I am wrong), it really does sound quite (that word again) tiribulus.
OK, let me see if I have this straight from an extreme and militant Calvinist:
(1) The Creator God has decided before the world began to create some disposable people and ordain them to an eternal agony and despair, to display His glory. ???
(2) He really doesn’t love these people, He really doesn’t love the world, and the Evangelical understanding of all those scriptures about God’s great love and compassion are, in the words of Mark Twain, “highly exaggerated.”??
(3) Our God is a bit grotchety, irritable, and certainly arbitrary. ???
(4) And this is good news, and we should love and worship Him for this. ???
That really is “tiribulus,” Tiribulus. I suspect the extreme Calvinist doesn’t build His doctrinal structure on the foundation of predestination so much as he does on
the necessity of an eternal Hell.
OK, maybe I missed something, but this is what I am hearing. Here’s your chance to correct this misunderstanding. Bro. Stumblefoot
Whew!!
In looking back over the comments on this post, and also those on Michael’s “Doubting Calvinists” blog, it’s pretty overwhelming to observe the despair (whether subjectively or objectively, inwardly or ultimately) which both the Arminian and the Calvinist positions lead to.
An Evangelical, gospel oriented, Universal Reconciliation (perhaps combined with anninilation for some) is the only really sure and continual confidence we can have.
The Calvinist and the Arminian may, and should, be aware at times of an “Inner Witness,” that gives peace concerning their relationship to God, but this just simply does not always exist in the busyness and bruises of everyday life. And even if it did, there would remain a terrible anxiety about family and friends, those we love dearly.
John Piper’s statement that (quoted from memory and not exact), “If God chooses to not save my children, then I won’t complain; He has the right to do whatever He chooses,” this just doesn’t get it, and it demonstrates how much the traditionalist has missed the main ingredient: God’s ultimate, benevolent and loving purpose for this whole race of people He has created and put on the earth.
Here is the answer to the despair witnessed in some of the comments. I sure didn’t get much impression of “Good News,” in them; not from the Calvinist perspective nor from tne Arminian. Brother Stumblefoot
Tiribulus, C’mon now. You’re treading on thin ice.
I became an Evangelical, born-again believer, apparently long before you were born. And you rail upon me, you rebuke an older man, contrary to the scriptures which I accept as inerrant. You really do need to learn some Christian tact and get some grace in your speech. Some Calvinists refer to people who exhibit such traits as “cage stage” Calvinists. What they mean by this is that they ought to be kept in a cage until they learn some Christian civility. I feel it best to discontinue any direct dialog with you until you get things better under control. Brother Stumblefoot
If you had said Unitarian Universalism is another gospel, I would have to agree. But there are a million miles of difference between Unitarian Universalism and Evangelical
Universalsim. This latter, E. U. is based altogether on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Son of God.
Without the cross, there could be no reconciliation for sinful man. We just believe, (like the Arminians), that the atonement is unlimited. But we go beyond the Arminians and we believe that the atonement is effectual for all whom Christ died for. There I’m sounding like a Calvinist, though I claim to be neither Arminian nor Calvinist.
Thomas Talbott has said that “The Arminian believes God loves everyone and wishes to save everyone. The Calvinist believes God will save everyone He loves and wishes to. The Universalist believes they are both correct!”
Actually, the Evangelical Universalist appears to just be taking a broader application of Calvinism’s “irresistable grace;” He believes God can, and will, eventually break down man’s resistance to His grace, but it’s not all going to happen in this lifetime.
Evangelical Universalism is “The Beautiful Doctrine.” What great love! What a great purpose and council of the Creator for His creation! “Is His hand shortened that He cannot save?” “Can He not do exceeding abundantly above all we ask or think?” Brother Stumblefoot
Cherylu and Gold City Dance:
I have gone through the same aspirin-requiring thoughts and counter-thoughts and frustrations and exhaustions you seem to be working through. Aspirin might sort of help with the Arminian viewpoint, but you need maximim strength pain killers with some of the Calvinistic ideas. But for either of these systems of thoughts, the ultimate prognosis is still “dead on arrival.”
I can “handle,” and i think you can “handle” the proposition
that God allows suffering and uses it for an ultimately good purpose. What we can’t handle, is that God might actively cause, or passively allow an “eternal” suffering, at the horrendous expense of the sufferee, just to “make Himself look good.” If He could not prevent this “eternal” suffering, that would be one thing; but to allow or cause such suffering when He has a way to prevent it (the atonement), this just flies in the face of everything we read in the Bible about His great love and compassion and mercy.
I think the bear trap most of us have accidentally stepped into is this word “eternal.” And every time we see a judgment in the Bible, we automatically read into it,
“eternal Hell.” Sure, God has often judged severely throughout history, and His future judgments will be severe, but who said they were/will be “eternal?”
The English Bible word “eternal,” is “aion” or “aionios” in the original Greek text; the literal meaning has to do with an “age,” not “eternity.” If the word is used figuratively, it surely refers to a “quality of life.” We owe the present day concept of an “eternal” Hell to the Dark ages.
Because neither system can explain the enigma of an eternal Hell, the Calvinist especially appeals to “mystery,”
i.e., “God has not seen fit to reveal why He has ordained an eternal Hell.” I think the real explanation is that He didn’t. Thanks for listening. Brother Stumblefoot
Tiribulous– I do get a bit weary of all this. I wonder if Michael had you in mind when he blogged about “theological legalism” and the cruel criticism of some Christians.
But now to get to the subject of aion/aionios vs. eternity:
The believer will live “eternally” because he/she is given
“immortality,” according to the Bible. Our living eternally is not diminished if we discover that “Aionios” does not translate as “eternal.
Best understood, i think, is that aionios life, if or when not used in a literal sense as “an age,” then it refers to a quality of life. (see John 17:3) If aionios simply means eternal, then by definition and according to your concept of Hell, then people in Hell have eternal life, because they’re there and alive forever.
The KJV speaks of “everlasting fire,” “everlasting punishment,” “eternal damnation,” “everlasting destruction,” “eternal judgment” and “eternal fire.”
All of these are from aionios in the original Greek, and it seems most natural in their contexts to see them as
relating to an age. For instance, Mt.25:46 (a favorite of the traditionalist) finds it’s context at the coming of our Lord Christ to judge this world and to set up His 1000 year reign, clearly related to “an age.”
The traditionalist seems to feel that if aionios does not translate as eternal, then believers have lost their hope of living forever, and in fact that God Himself would be mortal, if aionios is translated according to it’s meaning, and not according to the meaning Jerome gave it in his Latin Vulgate. But that is not so, the word immortality give us that assurance.
I just do not understand the love affair some traditionalists have with an eternal Hell. Are you so hardened that you have no concern for even one soul in an eternal Hell, when in fact, according to your concept, billions who have never heard the gospel (including non-elect babies, according to some) will be there…
If God unconditionally elected all sinners to eternal life,would there be any complaining. It’s not Unconditional Election that men hate. It is selective Unconditional Election.The fight against God’s election will continue till the second coming.
Jay: If I picked you up right, then I think you have made a good point. And surely, If He really is all powerful, all knowing, compassionate and good to all, then the “elect” may be the ones He is saving now, a “firstfruit” of those who will ultimately be saved.
The traditional advocate of an eternal Hell has taken certain presumpions to be adequate defense of their position, and has not really looked at the array of arguments the other side has.
I would propose that if we are unable to completely demolish every argument for a traditional Hell, we can at least, violently shake the the timbers of the structure.
Brother Stumblefoot
The fact of the matter is , eternal conscious torment is unbiblical . Universalism is also unbiblical .
The Bible teaches annihilation . Eternal death . The wages of sin is death . The Lake of Fire is the second death . God will kill both the body and the soul in hell .
The ultimate fate of the unsaved is that they will perish for eternity . Some will suffer more than others , scriptures make this clear . But in the end they will cease to exist . They will suffer eternal destruction . Death itself will die , and it will be no more .
In the end there will only be life , forever !
Darius– (The Mede, I assume?)
I can happily co-exist with those of you who are anninilationist, that was the first rung of the ladder for my ascent out of the depths of the eternal hell gloom. But I really think there is a much better case to be made for an ultimate reconciliation than many of us have ever recognized.
First, let me say that we really don’t have any choice but to
recognize God’s sovereignty and ability to do what he wishes and purposes. It is all through the Bible. That being said (and I assume, agreed upon) then I list here 8 scriptures that seem to indicate His purpose, His intent toward a universal reconciliation. A couple of them may not be so specific, yet they do seem to carry a benevolent intent toward His creation.I do not even here touch on all those verses that speak of His love and grace, which scriptures must weigh heavily, if love and grace are to be taken seriously, if they really have any teeth in their meaning.
Lk.9:56, Lk.19:10, Jn 10:10, 1st Tim. 2:4, 2nd Pe. 3:9,
He 2:9, He. 2:14-15, I Jn 3:8.
Now we have a list of scriptures that seem to speak of the all inclusiveness of His salvation: Jn.1:29, 3:17, 4:14, 4:42, 6:33, 6:51, 8:12, 12:47, 17:21, 17:23, Ro. 4:13,
11:15, 2nd Cor. 5:19, 1st Tim. 1:15, 1st Jn. 2:2, 4:9, 4:14. I must urge the reader to see these scriptures for what they say, not for what they are usually interpreted to say. Other scriptures we might look at are I Cor. 15:22, Ro. 5:18-19.
Philosophically, we win the argument, hands down. What loving Father would, before begetting children, sit down and devise a disciplinary system for his children that included eternal suffering for breaking the rules, if he had any way at all to prevent such suffering. Our God has a way, it is the cross!!
Fact is, I did find some mistakes in the list of scriptures I gave. My apologies, I don’t like to do that. For instance, I listed John 4:14, but it should have been 1st John 4:14. John 8:12, and 10:10, also 1st Tim. 1:15, are not conclusive of Universalism, but they appear to at least lean in that direction, but again I mentioned that a couple may not be specifically in my corner, so give me a pass on those three.
When I looked at Lk. 9:56, in my ESV,I was really taken aback–All I saw was “And they went on to another village.”
Now what on earth does that have to do with Universalism?
OK, I then discovered the statement I had in mind was in the KJV, the NAS, italicized in the Amplified, and missing entirely in the NIV. I’ll give you a draw on that one.
But when our Lord came to seek and to save that which was lost, are we forced to conclude that He put His hand to the plow, and then turned back? Does Our God intend to do things He is unable to complete? Can he not bring anyone He wishes to faith and repentance, even after death? If He cannot, then why do we pray for Him to save a loved one or friend? “The King’s heart in in the Lord’s hand, as rivers of waters, He turneth it whither He wishes.” “With God, all things are possible.” “He is able to do exceeding abundantly above all we ask or think.”
Now if He CAN draw anyone He wishes to Himself, and then if He does not, then are we sure He really has any meaningful love (with real teeth in it) for man whom He has created. And if He were so callous and cavalier about His offsprings, then are we sure we would really love Him, or would we just worship Him out of fear.
Bettr and wiser men than Brother Stumblefoot have seen the reasonableness of this argument. Even some who do not agree with my conclusions, at least agree that the arguments for an ultimate reconciliation for all are not simplistic.
Where is everyone?
Brother Stumblefoot
I’m coming upon this three years late, and from a somewhat different theological perspective. I just want to say it’s really cool that, although I disagree that /we know/ that not everyone is saved (I have no idea who is “saved” or if that’s even a thing), I agree so thoroughly with the following:
“He is saying, ‘Listen. There are some things that are good questions, but I have seen fit to withhold the answer. I am good. Trust me when I say I love everyone. Trust me when I say I know what I am doing. Trust me that I know best. Can you trust me?’ … In the end, I just encourage all of us to trust him. This is what faith is all about friend. He does know what he is doing, even when we don’t have the answers.”
Thanks for writing this blog, it’s very thought-provoking.
I think the question is not only a fair one but an honest and introspective one. Obviously from all these posts there are many who are searching for this answer that the Bible does not clearly answer. It clearly answers that it is unknown to those who struggle with the question and to those who do not struggle the Bible is clear. The potter example is a great model of what God does with His clay. Works it for common use and for special use.
I am one who struggles daily with all these differing scriptural explanations. I struggle with them because to me they are not clear one way or the other. Perhaps I am not one who is to understand these at this point in my life. Perhaps there is a day that is coming when it will all make sense and even then if it makes sense is it true?
I can not even tolerate in my own mind the existence of a loving but punishing God who created this universe and called it good then to have a date set to have His son return to take with Him a chosen sum and to destroy the rest. For as much as I study and as long as I have studied these scriptures mine ears have an obvious unwanted film that does not allow “The Word” to get through. There are always thousands of persons or thoughts that object to a scriptures meaning.
Our world is not only full of people who do not live by the Word but thousands who spend time daily in it that are so confused and mixed up one has to wonder what Life is all about. I for one study or ponder daily for many years and who is genuinely confused by many scriptures and their meanings. Do I deserve damnation because I don’t get it right? Studying the culture of days past is very helpful in understanding the times the Bible was written. It also has been misused and misinterpreted and printed into newer bibles with many newer translations. Words are explained many different ways. It is no wonder the confusion of it all.
Take the word eon from the Concordant Version. Eon does not mean eternity or eternal. It means a period of time. This is a severe and critical error and is being taught to teach the doctrine of Eternal Damnation/Torture. Who wants to hear about eternal damnation? Eternal destruction but not eternal damnation. That does not fit in my heart of what a compassionate loving creator would do to any of His creation. Tell me who wants to believe in a God who would do this to
His creation who never asked to be created in the first place? I believe this is where people begin to fall away from the Word. Those who teach and preach this doctrine are indeed causing people to either put their fingers to their ears or are causing others to preach the same. No people do not want to be destroyed and sorry if I offend anyone but if it’s God’s business to destroy then so be it, I do not desire to love this God. How could anyone?
this is the most honest and sincere post by a “Calvinist” ive ever read. most of those who hold to limited atonement will never admit feeling this way. I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian, but I do believe “if God can save anyone, then anyone can be saved.” for me, the “elect” is a GROUP, not an individual. I believe in corporate election. for example, lets say God CHOSE an unknown baseball team to win the world series. that settles it. THAT team WILL win. God did not choose any other team, and all other teams will battle God’s team for the prize. they are striving to enter the door, but will not get in. then in the locker room before the game, some team members ask their coach why doesn’t everyone win? the coach says because God chose us and not them. our winning brings Him glory–some of us don’t even know how to play baseball. our ability doesn’t matter. God only sees the uniform we wear, and He gets great pleasure by seeing THE enemy cringe at a bunch of nitwits with no talent or ABLITY, beating the pants off all the other professional teams. God chose a team full of people who cant even tie their own shoes properly, and still we will win—we will win because the trophy has already been won, this game has already been played.–and the Champion has the right to give the trophy to whoever he wants to give it to. so who did God choose??? he chose the TEAM absolutely–but notice He did NOT choose who the players are. the players who think they have all the answers, and who have “trained” and learned the game will never want to be a part of this team, once they see that anyone is welcome to be on that team—once they realize that all their self effort at becoming a good player means nothing on this team, they will laugh and walk away. they have condemned themselves. so the greatest becomes the least. the losers become the winners. once you realize thet youre a loser, we, welcome to the team!
I like the way you worded your position, but I don’t think corporate election is the teaching of the Bible. Well, let me clarify that; I do believe in corporate election; that God does indeed choose a group. However, that group is made up of individuals whom he has chosen. Corporate Election ONLY exists as a byproduct of Particular Individual Election.
As far as your view of corporate election goes, I think it comes up short in recognizing that there really is an effectual call, a call that DOES THINGS TO PEOPLE, a call that is not an invitation but a divine command that creates out of the nothingness of human ability. This is the call that Paul so often refers to in reference to believers.
“We know that all things work together for God for those who love God and are called according to his purpose”
God has a purpose relating to Christ, to give Christ a bride to rule and reign with who will love and be with Him forever, to the praise of the glory of His grace. This theme is prominent in John’s gospel. The Bible reveals that the purposes of God are from eternity. When God calls a person according to his purpose; heaven, hell, and the hearts of men bend to that call. When God called Abram, he went. When Jesus called his disciples to him, each and every one followed him immediately. When Christ called forth Lazarus, out he walks. When God called Paul; he was forever changed. And when God calls forth the dead on judgment day; all will come forth to receive their due.
There is a call from the the conscience to follow Christ. There is a call from reason for sinners to run to Jesus and be saved. There is a call from wisdom to seek God and truth and find immeasurable blessing. There is a call from history to repent and embrace God’s appointed messenger. There is a call from Scripture to believe the Gospel.
Despite all this, unbelievers remain unpersuaded.
But the call that comes from God himself has yet to be resisted. Who can wrestle with his maker? Who can deny the eternal love of the father when he has purposed to bring them to Christ to be made new? When God calls his children home, they come, every one of them. And of those given to Christ, not one of them will be lost, but all shall be raised up at the resurrection day unto life everlasting; carried through the final judgment under the cover of the perfect sacrifice; brought into the very fellowship of the eternal Trinity by the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world for a people yet to be born, but each one already known and loved and chosen in and with Christ.
Verse 9 of 2 Peter is frequently quoted to the exclusion of the rest of the whole chapter, repeatedly, seemingly everywhere I encounter discussions of this nature.
I am tempted to quote the whole chapter here. It draws a stark contrast between the readers, believers, who are referred to as ‘you’ and ‘dear friends’, and ‘they’, who are scoffers and ungodly.
v1-3 addresses the church (you, dear friends) and calls them to attention
v4-7 describe these scoffers, (they), their behavior, their deliberate unbelief, and their final destruction.
v8-17 again addresses believers (again, ‘you’ and ‘dear friends’)
And so it is to believers, as contrasted with the world of scoffers and unbeliever’s that God is patient toward. “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead — He is patient with *YOU* (readers, believers, )— , not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
Implications aside, there is no warrant whatsoever to say that 2 Peter 3:9 is inclusive of all people. None at all. It is very plainly a statement to the readers, to the believers, to the church; exclusively.
In fact, according to the chapter, God’s attitude toward unbelievers and scoffers is one of a patient waiting for their final destruction; a patience which promotes sober mindedness and behavior fitting of those whom God has called out of the world and into his kingdom, out of darkness and into light, out of sin and death and into righteousness and eternal life.