How Much is Too Much? Alcohol and the Christian

I am a soft teetotaller, and I am proud of it! 😉

I guess I fall (or rather, used to fall) in another category. I would drink only occasionally, primarily because I like good beer. However, I’ve never been drunk or even what I would defne as tipsy. I’ve felt a few mnor physical effects from drinking beer on a couple of occasions (e.g. light headedness) but never anything mood, emotion or behavior changing.

I think the Bible is not as specific as many might believe. I’d probably fall into (no pun intended) the “gospel-driven – tipsy” category, though I do not think the Bible forbids the “social drinking – drunk sometimes” position. Eph. 5:18 is aimed not at the folly of drunkenness, but at the superiority of being filled with the Spirit. To focus on the drunkeness aspect is to miss the point.

I’m Soft teetotalism. I was raised around alcohol and for me personally the following fits:

Abstinence is a lot easier than perfect moderation…..

I’m a “soft” teetotalist. Other than nyquil, I don’t like the taste of alcohol. I guess I’m odd though because I don’t like coffee either. I don’t have a problem with others having a margarita with their nachos though. As long as it isn’t in excess, I don’t think there is an issue.

Let me add this – here in California, we’re going to vote on a proposition to legalize marijuana this fall. Right now, it has a very real chance of passing. So the question has already come up in our church. If it passes, will it be OK to use marijuana at all (ignoring “medical” use), and if so, how much? Different drug – same question.

Some say no, because pot is “pharmakeia,” meaning mind-altering. But by that definition, so is alcohol. For that matter, so is caffeine, but we have big pots of it brewing in the lobby every Sunday.

Of course, even if legalized here, the fact that marijuana use is still a federal crime may provide a simple answer for now, but hey, we live under an administration advocating all kinds of “change” so who knows what’ll happen in the next few years. At some point, the alcohol discussion will add the marijuana aspect and churches will have to deal with it.

Daniel:

Just out of curiousity, what do you drink? You said that you don’t like coffee too! (I know this is not THE place to ask this!!)

I’m a soft teetotaler. I got drunk early on in my salvation and made a vow to God that I’d never drink again. But I think it’s fine for Christians to drink in moderation.

Soft Teetotaler here.

I don’t mind if other Christians are having a few beers or glasses of wine, but I prefer a cold Diet Dr. Pepper in my hand. Plus, I know my habit of constantly drinking what is in my hand till it is gone and immediately refilling whatever it is. For me, it’s a cautious thing I do, but I don’t mind being around others who aren’t getting drunk on an “adult beverage”.

I’d have to agree with Casey, and I think the poll is incomplete. I drink a beer nearly every day, but am never tempted to drink too much, nor do think there is a defined amount. Self-awareness is learned through practice, and knowing when you start to lose control is the line for you. That can be found in community as you engage with others and humbly acknowledge their helpful feedback on your behaviors. Being filled with the Spirit should generate a desire to be mastered by no lesser loves… queue the grace of God here.

Credit to Dave: Over a beer, a couple of friends and I have talked about the marijiuana issues as well. In Europe, I guess, there are places where marijiuana is cultivated in varieties as numerous as coffees here. You go take a drag on your favorite blend at any corner shop. SO, we are driven beyond the “issues” in practice, to the principals at the heart of God’s commands. And in the Gospel centered life, Christ is the center. We want no other master. So, what does it do to you? Are you in control of yourself, able to function normally, make sound judgments, etc? Anything can become our master, but many things can also bring glory to God when used in their proper place. Without the Gospel center, every love is a usurper.

I tend to follow the George Herbert (1593-1633) 3rd Glass rule:

Drink not the third glasse, which thou canst not tame,
When once it is within thee; but before
Mayst rule it, as thou list; and poure the shame,
Which it would poure on thee, upon the floore.
It is most just to throw that on the ground,
Which would throw me there, if I keep the round.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/herbert/temple/3p.html

with occasional modifcations of the rule with the “Luther drinking to exhiliration” allowance. (I was looking for another quote, but this is the one I found.)

“If you are tired and downhearted, take a drink; but this does not mean being a pig and doing nothing but gorging and swilling… You should be moderate and sober; this means that we should not be drunken, though we may be exhilarated.”

– Martin Luther, Sermon on Soberness and Moderation

All in all, I know that I am sinning when I drink more than I would if my wife were with me.

Ps… the idea of drinking simply to enlarege you sphere of witness seems out of order. Either you have freedom to drink, or you do not… but to use drink as a gateway to witness seems really odd.

I would like to subscribe to the “Gospel Driven Christians, tipsy sometimes”. I like the good flavors of a micro-brew. I wish I could enjoy it more, but I feel it not God honoring if buy it weekly and keep it my refrigerator. God would want me to better use my money for other things. I feel convicted to make sure I give to the church with some sacrifice—. (If only I would do the same about sugar products!) Very rarely I consume to bring me up to tipsy. I am aware of the broad range of consciousness functioning of my own behaviors. I wake up from sleep, barely able to function. Sight is not working, balance is impaired. Hearing is barely there. (I can hear the alarm clock, just that I dream so realistically, I must distinguish from my internal input thoughts from external stimuli.) I sometimes short my sleep 3 or 4 hours so I am aware how I face life with not the full resources. The effects of the beer alcohol falls in line with my normal ebb and flow of my regular functioning. It is minor compared to my daily waking. It falls in line with the effects of a couple cups of coffee, which i also like. I am a sinner who comes to God every day! So you can see how I do not understand that some Christians think alcohol is an intrusion of sin in ones life that is above the normal. (I am a Christian who realize I sin, even as I embrace Christian sacrifice. God is So Holy!)

Some of you guys may give me Christian advice!–
Rob.

Have to agree with JSH and Casey. I’ve never had more than a full glass of wine, nor more than one beer. I’ve barely had enough alcohol to feel its effects beyond a little relaxation. I do so semi-regularly—probably once a week, on average—because I like the way a good beer or wine tastes. For those who struggle, I advise them to abstain, but I think Scripture clearly teaches that alcohol is a good thing that can be put to bad uses. (We might say the same about many other things, including sex, food, and even exercise.)

The marijuana question is an interesting one; the primary argument I’ve heard against it is that it is impossible to use without the rough equivalent of drunkenness. My experience being nonexistent (the whole illegality thing was more than enough for me, but the smell alone would have done it, too), I wonder if the argument is valid.

I put down “Social Drinking Christian”. I enjoy alcohol and the effects of alcohol. I have gotten carried away on occasion. As for how much is too much, is there a hard line for every individual?

As CMP (and JSH) points out, the core question (if one chooses to drink) is where is the proper limit. How much is too much? I find it handy that the government has given us a guideline: 0.08% Blood Alcohol Content. At that point, alcohol has a measurably detrimental effect on our ability to make sound judgments and such – to some extent, alcohol is in control. If I have one beer over a period of 15 minutes or so, I can feel it. My limit is 2 beers, consumed slowly. At that amount, though I can feel an effect, I am not out of control. (I can tell the difference- in my pre-Christian days I was all too familiar with “out of control.”)

I assume that if our proposition passes this fall, some sort of Blood THC Content standard will be put in place for marijuana consumption and will be used to determine impairment for driving or whatever.

I’ll have a drink now and then, though I don’t particularly see what’s so great about alcohol. I did play a trick on my friends once; made them think I was drunk for hours. Wonder what that counts as…

In any case, I think this is a good time to bring up one of my favorite scripture passages on the subject. During Pentecost, when the apostles were speaking in tongues, they were accused of drinking too much wine.

Notice Peter’s reply in Acts 2:15
“These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!”

Always makes me laugh a bit. I wonder what Peter is implying about night time…

Dave Z,
The governments limit is for driving a car which requires that you’re reflexes and concentration be as fast as possible. It is not the point at which you’re stumbling over yourself or likely to do something you wouldn’t sober (in other words you’ve lost you’re inhibitions). It is simply that point at which their is a significant decrease in your ability to react when driving a vehicle.

Now if fairness I’ve maybe been legally intoxicated two or three times in my life and quite frankly don’t like the feeling (I’m tall and clumsy enough completely sober), but I don’t think the governments limit for driving a car is the proper line to draw as to when something becomes drunkeness for Biblical purposes.

YMMV 🙂

Dave Z,

Eph. 5:18 is aimed not at the folly of drunkenness, but at the superiority of being filled with the Spirit. To focus on the drunkeness aspect is to miss the point.

(I see there have been multiple comments made since I started this comment of mine. So maybe this has already been discussed. Haven’t had a chance to read them yet. My phone rang a bazillion times while I was trying to comment, so it was a long process getting it done.)

I think I will have to disagree with you on this one. Certainly there is a contrast here between being drunk with wine and being filled with the Spirit. However, as I understand it, the sentence, Do not be drunk with wine, is an imperative, a command. So I don’t think we can say it is missing the point to say that Paul is not focusing on the drunkeness aspect here. This whole section is talking about what is approved and what is disapproved in God’s sight.

Paul also calls being drunk with wine, excess, dissipation, debauchary depending on the translation you read. Verse 11 of the same chapter reads, Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them. Is not something that is dissipation or debauchary probabably classified as an unfruitful deed of darkness? It would certainly seem to me to to the case that it is.

(I see many comments have been made since I started this comment, so this may have already been discussed. Haven’t had time to read them yet, so don’t know. My phone rang repeatedly while I was commenting, so it was a very long process.)

And now I have two statements in my last comment about all the phone calls I got and not being able to get the comment finished for ages! I thought I put that note on the end of the comment and didn’t see it, so I tried again. Oh well, some days I just can’t win!

Hard Teetotaler. No further comment needed 😉

Hmmm….I don’t seem to fit in any of the categories either. Right now, I’m in seminary and signed that I would not drink. I don’t and it’s no big deal.

In the past I might enjoy a beer or two every few months or less. That’s about it.

It is interesting to see the differences between the comments and the poll. It would seem that those in the poll who say “tipsy sometimes” don’t comment here even though, right now, they are in the lead.

I guess it is obvious from my last comments that I don’t believe that a Christian should ever drink to the point of being drunk.

I am not a teetotaler though as I don’t understand Scripture to say that one is never to drink any alcohol at all. I usually have a small glass of wine at Christmas and Thanksgiving and maybe at my husband’s office Christmas party. But that is where I usually draw the line.

I can certainly understand why some Christians choose to not drink at all with the Biblical warnings regarding it and the danger of possibly being a stumbling block to others or if they have had problems in the past with alcohol themselves. And I am not really sure what I think of the “beer for evanglism” thing. I think there may be times when it has a place. It certainly seems to me that this whole thing is a very sensitive issue and one that all of us need the leading of the Spirit on in every circumstance so as not to fall into a trap or cause someone else to stumble.

We Australians treat beer drinking as a national pastime. The weird thing for me is that as a non-Christian I never enjoyed alcohol, but in my later years as a Christian I began enjoying a glass of beer with my meat and a glass of red with my pasta.

At work we go out to lunch in Pubs often (the cheapest places to get a decent steak) and I don’t have a problem having a glass of beer. I do it because I enjoy it not because I want to be accepted by non-Christians. I always stop after the second glass though because my body tells me it can’t handle any more, not because of moral convictions. Beyond that I start getting a headache rather than lightheadedness or feeling ‘merry’.

Taste ways, I prefer a low-carb beer (no redeeming value, I know) and if I’m driving I’ll only drink the lite variety not full-strength.

I’ve been around ‘non-alcoholic Christians’ many times and I’ve learned to respect their sensitivity so I’ll happily drink juice or whatever they serve.

Our inner city church has an outreach to people from the fringe and a few of those that have professed faith in Christ won’t touch alcohol (even in communion, so we had to change it) because they are recovering alcoholics. Some of them proudly count the number of days ‘they haven’t touched the stuff’ and tell us about it. That is their evidence of ‘victory’ over their past addiction.

Well how’s this then…

I actually make my own beer and meade!!!, it’s very rare that I get drunk. I even swap beer with the Pastor (Anglican) and rarely go over without some type of offering of alcohol. Church events normally that involve food at someone’s house, normally involve beer. It’s always done in moderation…

I did my time in churches who got appoplectic about alcohol, and then I read what the bible said for myself and got over it 🙂

So I would fit in the Tipsy category, though that rarely happens, usually only when we break out the meade!!!!

-Paul-

@ cherylu,
I am not a Greek scholar, so I have to depend on those who are, and I probably get that wrong too, but as I read various commentators, I get the impression that Paul is speaking in a general sense, to not be controlled by drunkenness, but by the Spirit, and that should be on a continuing basis. The inverse then would be that we are not to be controlled by alcohol on a continuing basis. I think that’s different than crossing the line now and then. Robertson’s Word Pictures puts it thus: “…intoxication, Forbidden as a habit …”

I’m not arguing for drunkenness. OTOH, I think it should be discouraged, but if someone in my church gets drunk once or twice a year, I’m not going to get all worked up about it, though I would make a little mental note to make sure things don’t get out of hand.

Rereading Michael’s article, I see that he mentioned the Greek in this verse as more in agreement with your understanding, Dave Z. So I may very well be mistaken on this.

Any other input from Greek scholars on this Eph. verse?

Even if the Ephesians verse is proved to not condemn occassional drunkenness, I can’t help but think that when we are to be, as Christians, controlled by the Holy Spirit, to give ourselves to the control of a “liquid spirit” can not be right. People who are drunk, for instance, are not always known for their self contol! Should we as Christians indulge ourselves in this even occassionally? It doesn’t seem right to me whatever the ultimate meaning of the Ephesians verse is.

It seems to me most here have lost focus on the consequences of alcohol and even alcoholism. Bloodied and mangles bodies, jail time, puck, urine, defenselessness, no recollection, dt’s, property damage, domestic violence…

Sure Luther slurped his beer and slept with his wife. He threw ink wells at the devil too. So what?

You compromise yourself when you do drink and offer only an excuse to those who are looking for one.

Amidst your giggeling and laughter there is real unobserved pain.

I haven’t drunk in 17 years. The last words out of my mouth back then were “God damn it.” He has.

Vladimir

Urine is a consequence of alcohol? Dang, guess I should have paid more attention in biology!

Vladamir, no one is denying the dangers of alcohol, but potential danger is not the same as unavoidable danger. Think of the destruction caused by fire – people burned beyond recognition, or even killed, houses destroyed, etc. Here in Southern California, fire is a devastating force, wiping out entire communities. But I bet you have a hot water heater in your house, and a stove. Maybe even a fireplace. Your car runs on fire and much of our electricity is generated with fire. Should we eliminate all those things because fire carries the potential of harm? No? Then why should we avoid alcohol? Many good things are dangerous when abused.

You are right in noticing that many of the comments do not focus on the consequences of alcohol, but instead focus on what God has said. Personally, I think that’s the proper focus. The simple fact is that scripture does not forbid alcohol. So, based on scripture, I have to disagree with your assertion that God has damned it.

How about this suggestion?

The verb μεθυσκεσθε (methuskesthe) is parsed as ‘second plural present passive imperative’, so that would imply a continual or habitual action, not an ad hoc ‘lapse of judgment’ type of behavior.

IMO it is hard (if not impossible) to make a biblical case for ‘occasional drunkenness’ being ok. It is clear from 1 Tim 3:8 and 1 Tim 5:23 that small quantities are not considered prohibitive, so we end up with a similar conclusion to ‘love of money is wrong, not money itself’. Therefore, it is the excessive use of alcohol that is wrong both in terms of quantity and frequency (getting drunk AND getting drunk often).

However, my understanding is that the context and the authorial intent is not an ‘occasional vs regular’ practice but the broader ‘lifestyle’ orientation toward feel-good drinking fests. I would agree that Paul’s intention is not to highlight the sinfulness of drinking but the superiority of the fulfillment that comes from ‘being filled with the Spirit’

My disclaimer is that if you don’t agree ‘ask an expert’ as I only speak with a layman’s understanding.

Sorry, the reference I made to the verb μεθυσκεσθε (methuskesthe) is in relation to Ephesians 5:18.

Drank daily 35 years. Clean and sober 8 years 4 months. The worst thing that my alcoholism(believe me there were many catastrophes) did to me is that it disabled the ability to be in contact with God. It made me unavailable to give love to people or to receive love they may have offered. And now a day at a time through the wonderful healing power available through Jesus if I am available to receive it, I can be His servant and servant to all. What a glorious liberation from self crucifixion! And resurrection as well.

I put myself down as a social drinker, although the times I’ve gotten drunk haven’t been all that social.

I put my hand up to occasionally self medicating. Once, when I was struggling with a depression that had an easily identifiable cause (family tragedy), I used bourbon and beer to allow me a ‘time out’ from the struggle. It was a deliberate and controlled surrendering of control 😛 I always knew the work would still be there when I sobered up, and I didn’t do it often (about once every two weeks for 4 months) but it allowed me that space, a ‘weekend’ away from the emotional pain and a rest from the trudging head-miles I was doing.

I didn’t discover Proverbs 3:6-7 (Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish; 7 let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.) till a bit later, but I can say those proverbs make a lot of sense. Wise words.

Apart from that I drink for the taste and only one or two. The taste tends to be dulled after that.

BTW, it appears God doesn’t mind a bit of a tipple from time to time:
Numbers 28:7b ASV: … in the holy place shalt thou pour out a drink-offering of strong drink unto Jehovah. 😉

Here is an interesting article on this subject. http://blogs.chron.com/believeitornot/2010/07/pour_one_for_the_pastor_evange.html

Yeah, Johnfom. There is a guy in my church whose ex-wife is trying to win sole custody of their 7 year old daughter, and he’s just devastated. One day a court decision went against him and he bought a bottle, sat at home and got drunk. One time occurance, and I’m not worried about it.

You have a typo in your reference. What you meant is Proverbs 31:6. I only mention it because I almost did the opposite recently. A friend’s daughter was getting married and I wanted to remind them of Proverbs 3:5-6, but just wrote from memory and so wrote Proverbs 31:6. Thankfully, my wife caught it in time. I’m sure the bride and groom would have puzzled a while over that one.

Dave Z wrote:

“Urine is a consequence of alcohol? Dang, guess I should have paid more attention in biology!”

Yes Dave, they piss it all away. Your analogies are shallow and flippent.

A bar is for the lonely and lost. They seek validation among the inane. Their talk is hollow and monotonous. If you want a cheap lay or occupy your time with vain amusements, well then go suck on a suds or validate vodka’s 300 year tradition. The one I follow is far more weighty than that.

Vladimir

Here’s a link to another article, probably based on the same survey. I’m posting it in part because of the articles linked in the “Related” frame on the left. Interesting stuff.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100625/poll-2-in-5-evangelical-leaders-drink-alcohol/

Further:

Yes they give morphine to the war wounded and terminally ill to keep them from thrashing and reeling with pain and yes alcohol can be used as an antiseptic to a wound. But in reality your only hiding and avoiding reality.

If your going to hide in a bottle, then call it for what it is.

As the Scripture says:

45But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master(B) is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and(C) get drunk, 46the master of that servant will come(D) on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.

Vladimir

Yeah, Vladimir, shallow and flippen [sic], that’s me. Probably from drinking too much, huh?

Vlad, disagree, but please do so with respect.

Ahh the dangers of taking ones personal convictions and seeking to make them normative for the entire Christian community absent a clear Biblical mandate to do so. Reminds me of some people in the Bible…..

Seriously though I’m not denying that it is wrong to get drunk, nor am I denying that alcohol in excess can lead to some really bad and sad stories. Yet the Bible chooses to not make blanket pronouncements against drinking alcohol, only against drunkenness. If you feel that it is wrong for you to drink that’s fine. God has obviously laid something upon you’re heart and it would be wrong to ignore that. However, when you seek to make that normative for all Christians and accuse those Christians who do drink of sinning you have crossed a horrible line and are really no better than the Pharisees. You are making up you’re own law and then expecting everyone else to follow it.

From what I understand, total abstention is almost exclusively identified with American Evangelicalism (Well, and Islam. And Mormonism). It always makes me suspicious when a position is only held or primarily held by a small slice of Christianity. Would not the Spirit teach the same to all, especially on such a controversial subject? If alcohol is nearly always wrong, why aren’t the scriptures unambiguous? I mean, think about Paul addressing the Corinthians – he scolded them because at their Lord’s Supper, some got drunk, some went hungry. What a perfect time for him to say “What do you think you’re doing having alcohol to begin with? Use new wine or water and no one will get drunk!” But he didn’t. I think it’s because the problem wasn’t alcohol, but a lack of love towards other believers.

I think Christian calls to abstinence can be traced directly to the Temperance Movement of the early 20th century. At that time, alcohol became directly linked to unrighteousness in the minds of believers, and that attitude lingers today. They even got the name wrong – they didn’t call for temperance, but for total, legislated abstinence. Prohibition. (Which didn’t prove to be such a great idea) That’s the same era that said playing cards and dancing were wrong. When I was a kid, someone in church scolded my mom because she let her kids play Monopoly. The problem? It uses DICE!

I’m with Tom. I recovered when I had Hepatitus C and it was when God forgave me and led me to Jesus Christ.
To go into a bar to evangelize is about the most lame excuse I’ve heard. If you are really walking with our Lord , the last thing you would do is dishonour Him by becoming intoxicated. “Be ye Holy as I am Holy”.

Finished dinner just a bit ago. Had tacos. My wife brought me a beer, which I enjoy with tacos. So now I better go debauch. Either that or work on my sermon for Sunday.

‘Night all!

Well, y’all know that the reason Peter, James and John fell asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane was from drinking the wine at the Last Supper Seder (at least two and maybe four cups were in use during the 1st century).

‘Tweren’t no Welch’s Grape Juice, that’s for sure. And it hopefully was something better tasting than Manischewitz or Mogen David Concord.

Just finished our small group dinner. We may be baptists, but we did enjoy our Molson’s Canadian (token Canadian in the group, we drink it as our way of outreach to our more northern brethren) Nobody go drunk, but we had a great time being with each other.

But we did avoid dancing and card playing.

This time…

I’ve personally seen the absolute worst of what alcohol can do. God has graciously used that experience to make me believe that one should be a minimalist in the use of alcohol. Just not worth the problems it can cause. If it’s a problem, than there are plenty of other beverages one can have and still be available to witness in a tavern if that’s what you are called to do.