No, I did not say “Doubting Calvinism.” Although I am a master of typos, this blog is about something different. First, every reader needs to know that I am a Calvinist. And while the “doctrines of grace” are not the most important issues in theology, I believe in them very deeply and find that they constitute a significant portion of my hope and comfort.
Why all this snuggling up to Calvinism? Because I don’t want to look like one of those disgruntled emerging types, continually complaining about his own family. Having said that, I am going to discuss a “problem” I often (certainly not always) see among my Calvinist brothers and sisters. I am going to state the issue and then attempt to provide a timid yet substantial interpretation of the problem.
Okay, enough of the prologue. Let me get to it.
I grew up a Baptist. As such, I was quite aware of the “Baptist way” of evangelism. First, you get the person saved. Next, you make sure they know that they can never lose their salvation. Assurance of salvation was not some tertiary or auxiliary doctrine. It was something the new believer in Christ must have, now. To be fair, this is not simply a Baptist thing. It is something that can be found in the DNA of pop Evangelicalism as well. And it makes some sense. If a new believer knows that he is secure in Christ, his works and service to the Lord will come because he is saved, not so that he can be saved. This secures his belief and understanding in justification by faith alone.
Assurance of salvation. I suppose this is the subject of this post. The question is Can one be absolutely sure that they are a believer and how important is this assurance in their walk with the Lord? Many Christians don’t believe an individual can be assured of their ultimate salvation. Many believe one can lose their salvation. Catholics believe that “mortal sins” (really nasty sins such as adultery, rejection of the perpetual virginity of Mary, or missing Mass without a valid excuse) can cause a Cathlic to lose their salvation. Arminians and Wesleyans believe one can cease to believe, thereby forfeiting their seat in heaven. Therefore, from the perspective of those who don’t believe salvation can be lost, these belief systems cannot offer any assurance. The criticism would be that no one could ever be sure, until death, whether or not they are saved. After all, what if I decided to sleep in on Sunday and then immediately died of a heart attack without repenting? How do I know for sure if my faith is going to last until the end? For Catholics, the fact that one cannot be assured of their salvation is dogmatized.
If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.
Council of Trent, Canon XV of the Decree on Justification
If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end, unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.
Council of Trent, Canon XVI of the Decree on Justification
Ironically, for the Catholic, to believe that one can be assured of their salvation would be the means by which they lose their salvation!
You: I thought this was about Calvinists!
Me: Patience, my son. Patience
Calvinists believe in a doctrine called “perseverance of the saints.” Normally, we don’t like the phrase “Once saved, always saved” (even though, technically, we believe this). A little better is the designation “eternal security.” But our favorite is “perseverance of the saints.” We believe that the elect will persevere in their faith until the end. Therefore, if one is among the elect, she cannot lose her seat in heaven.
One would think this would bring a great deal of assurance among Calvinists concerning their security. Their faith is a gift of God and he will never take it back. The elect are secure.
Now, as many of you know, I have quite a significant ministry dealing with Christians who are doubting their faith for one reason or another. Jude 22 says “have mercy on those who doubt.” I don’t think we do this enough. We avoid doubters like the plague, not knowing how to minister to them. Unfortunately, many of my fellow Calvinists deal with doubters according to one of two theological clichés. If they leave the faith, they were never saved to begin with. If they are elect, they will not leave faith. End of story.
There are three primary reasons Christians doubt. The first has to do with objective intellectual issues. These doubt the Bible’s truthfulness, Christ’s resurrection, and even God’s existence (among other things). Another group doubts God’s love and presence in their lives. The last group doubts their salvation and the reality of their faith. These are always wondering if they have true saving faith or a false faith. This last group lacks assurance.
It may surprise you to know that just about every contact I have had with people who are doubting their salvation are Calvinistic in their theology. In other words, they believe in unconditional election. These are the ones who believe in perseverance of the saints. These are the ones that believe that we cannot lose our salvation! Yet these are the ones who are doubting their faith the most.
Their issue has to do with their election. Are they truly among the elect? If they are, they believe their faith will persevere until the end. But if they are not, there is no hope. But how are they to know for sure whether they are elect? Maybe their faith is a stated faith? Maybe it is false. The gentleman I talked to today was so riddled with doubt, he was having thoughts of suicide. “How do I know my faith is an elect faith?” He wanted assurance so badly, but felt that his Calvinistic theology prevented him from ever having such assurance.
Isn’t this ironic? I have never had a call from an Arminian (or any other believer in conditional election) about this. In my experience, it is only Calvinists who doubt their faith in this way, with such traumatic devastation. Why?
I have my theories. Let me share them, but I am interested in your thoughts.
Here we go (close your ears Baptists): I think we make too much of the doctrine of assurance. I don’t know if it is paramount for a believer to always be absolutely assured that he is a believer. John Hannah, one of my favorite profs at Dallas Seminary, said one time in class, “I am ninety percent sure I am saved . . . but I am only ten percent sure of that.” He would say things like this, knowing it would disturb most of his Evangelical students’ foundations, causing them to think more deeply. I thought if John Hannah is not one hundred percent sure he is saved, how can anyone be? I did not know whether to rethink my Baptist upbringing or take John Hannah out into the hall and share the Gospel with him. Eventually, it caused me to rethink my understanding of assurance. I don’t think there is any reason why we have to be absolutely certain we are saved at every moment. When we present the Gospel to someone and they say they have trusted in Christ, we do them a disservice to force assurance upon them. After all, how do we know that their faith is real? We don’t. Instead of assurance, maybe we should give them some of the Hebrews warning passages. Maybe we should speak to them as Christ spoke to the seven churches in Revelation: “to him who overcomes . . .” Maybe we should encourage them to “test their faith” (2 Cor. 13:5). Maybe we should warn them that there is a possible disqualification. (1 Cor. 9:27). This may not fit into your thinking, but we all know there is a faith that does not save (James 2:19). Why not bring this up?
You see, people in our tradition often believe it is anathema to test your faith. To even bring up the possibility of our faith not being real scares us. Why? Because if it is not real, in our sometimes distorted thinking, it is God’s fault and there is nothing we can do about it. We are either elect or not and all that can happen if we examine our faith is bring about the terrifying possibility of reprobation.
I think, for so many of us, the issues are as black and white as they can be. We are caught up in this modernistic ideal of absolutes. Either you know with one hundred percent infallible certainty that we are saved – or we have no certainty at all. But I think our certainty is relative to our situation. The question is never Are you elect? That is a question only for God. The question is Do you believe right now? If you do, you can know you have eternal life. Could you be wrong? Could your faith be false? Could your trust in the Lord be like that of the second and third soils of Christ’s parable? Those that sprung up quickly but faded away? Sure. But the solution is not to divine the mind of God to see if you are elect. It is to persevere in your faith. Arminians know this. They live with this every day. Therefore, they don’t call me falling apart about their assurance. They know how to test their faith and they do all they can to keep it. Calvinists often just get paralyzed in fear thinking they are not among the elect and have their hands tied. When, truth be told, we should respond very much like Arminians with regard to the stability of our faith. We do everything to persevere (which I would love to expand on, but I don’t have the space). Our theology demands that when we do persevere, we know that it was God who would not ever let us go, not us who would never let him go. Therefore, we understand our faith was not of ourselves. But this fact does not help much in situations when our faith needs to be tested. We simply do not have a magic decoder ring to determine if we are truly elect.
You ask me: Michael, do you know you are saved? My answer: yes. You ask me: Michael, do you have assurance? My answer: yes. You ask me: Michael, why do you believe you are saved? My answer: because today I am still believing. But I have to test this all the time, as I am not infallible. I could have a false faith, but I don’t believe I do. This ninety percent assurance will have to do. The witness of the Spirit I have today is enough for today. Tomorrow I will examine myself again. But my assurance does not have to be absolute and comprehensive. While the Catholics went way overboard on their “anathemas” (I mean, come on, guys . . .), I do think they are right to warn against any necessity of infallible assurance. Once we learn to test ourselves, the times of doubt will lead to productive action, not paralyzing fear.
867 replies to "Doubting Calvinists"
Indeed I would have to agree generally with the TOA, but thankfully many Roman Catholics – over the centuries – have experienced the present grace of God In Christ, even with their poor to bad doctrine. Both Christ and His work are one or found together!
Calvinism is incompatible with any assurance of salvation. This explains why: http://evangelicalarminians.org/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-13-salvation-assurance/.
Portions of that post could give the impression that Arminians don’t have assurance of final salvation either. But I know the author agrees with me on the qualification I give here:
Arminian theology does give substantial assurance of future final salvation, simply not absolute or unconditional assurance whereas Calvinist theology can give no present assurance and therefore no future assurance whatsoever and be consistent with its own doctrine. In everyday life, people have substantial assurance of future benefit which is nonetheless conditional on their continuing to meet the condition for that future benefit, for example continuing to consent to receive it. So Arminians can have solid assurance of present salvation, and substantial assurance of future final salvation, which is contingent on them continuing to meet the condition, which is faith. Put another way concerning future salvation, we have full assurance of future salvation on the condition of faith. And wonderfully, God promises true believers the ability to persevere in faith and that nothing can tear them away from him. So with present salvation we have the absolute assurance that God will enable us to persevere unto final salvation and that God is for us. He simply does not guarantee that he will *make* us persevere. Arminian theology gives far more assurance than Calvinism: In Arminianism, full assurance of present salvation, and substantial assurance of future final salvation (i.e. full assurance on the condition of faith) vs. in Calvinism no assurance period.
Now many Calvinists have assurance *despite* their theology. But the important point is that it is despite their theology, which puts their theology at odds with Scripture, which teaches that we can know that we are saved.
TheOldAdam: “There are many who believe that they are saved…but who are not.”
For example, some baptized Lutherans.
Let me let me restate/elaborate one of my points: in everyday life, assurance of a future benefit is almost always conditional on at least the continuing free consent of the receiver of the benefit. Hardly anyone ever thinks of such assurance as minimal or meaningless. It is simply a given that receiving a future promised benefit remains contingent on consenting to it. Here’s an illustration: if one is on a train that the company assures will get you to your destination (and it has never failed a customer), one can have assurance that one will arrive at the destination (and assurance is accordingly greater with the reliability of the one promising the result; in salvation it is God, so assurance is absolutely certain). But that does not mean that one cannot decide to jump off the train. The company’s assurance to take you to the destination does not include forcing you to stay on the train. So saying Arminians don’t have absolute, unconditional assurance for final salvation verges on being a red herring or perhaps irrelevant instead. It is not the type of assurance people ever normally have with respect to future promised benefits. The link I gave shows that Calvinists don’t have such assurance from their theology anyway. But it is good to underscore the very real and profound assurance of future salvation that Arminian theology gives in harmony with biblical teaching from which it is draw and that Calvinistic theology can never deliver.
Irene: “Is the Calvinist Gospel Good News?”
Charles Spurgeon: “Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.”
Read the rest.
I have not read thoroughly through the comments, but if a person is thinking “how can I know I am elect, it’s just a lottery”, then that person doesn’t understand Calvinism. I have heard it explained many times by Calvinists like Mark Driscoll and RC Sproul that if you have a real love for the God of the Bible (as opposed to a god made in our image), then you are elect. I find that insight very helpful. God will not cast out anyone who comes to him in faith and Calvinists recognize that the natural man cannot come to God in faith without being regenerated and given faith. At the same time, I completely sympathize with doubting your salvation. It’s just an issue all Christians have to deal with. Thanks for continuing to provoke great discussions Michael!
Is the Calvinist gospel good news? It was for me.
@ Jay who wrote “If they don’t believe the assurance of the Holy Spirit,they aren’t going to believe you. Tell them to join an Arminian Church. They will feel better after they are told they are in charge.”
Jay, I have served in an Arminian denomination since the mid-80’s and I have never heard that preached or even implied.
The problem I found with my old alma mater is that they forbade the reading of any literature that did not promote dispensational Calvinism. When I finally graduated and got out into the real world and was free to read the works of Arminians, I found that most of what I was told and taught was complete caricature.
I humbly posit you have fallen into the same error.
Greg said: –To know that the King of the universe chose you to be His family even before He in the beginning created the heavens and the earth? What, pray tell, could be better news that that?–
That is indeed good news, but Calvinism certainly has no exclusive claim to that statement. Lutheranism, Catholicism, and I’m confident Arminianism, also teach that.
Jay said: –Is the Calvinist gospel good news? It was for me.–
Well, sure it is if you believe yourself to be elect. But look beyond yourself. What about those who wonder about the spiritual fate of their fallen away loved ones? Is Calvinism good news to them? Oh, nothing can keep them from God you say? Yes, if they are chosen. But if they are not among God’s chosen, is there hope? Is there any prayer, any sacrifice left for them? Is there any persuasion, any teaching, that can help? Is there any love or mercy to affect their heart? We would cry to God to help them but Calvinism denies us even that hope. It is not good news for everyone.
FACT: “eternal security” was unknown to Christians for 1,500 years after the Church was founded.
FACT: we are called to have a relationship with God, the Holy Trinity
FACT: a relationship where 1 of the participants doesn’t think that they have to “actively participate” is called “dysfunctional”.
The word of the Lord:
Matthew 24:12-13: And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
2 Timothy 2:12: If we endure, we shall also reign with Him.
Matthew 7:21: Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Matthew 19:17: But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
Philippians 2:12-13: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
1 Timothy 2:13-15: For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
Hebrews 2:1-3: Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?
Hebrews 3:6: but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Hebrews 3:14: For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end
James 1:12: Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
1 Peter 1:9: for you are receiving the goal of your…
It is not good news for everyone.
If you are not one of the elect, it is probably the most terrible news possible.
Greg, I think you are the one not getting it. Should we only be concerned about our own souls? That is not mercy. That is not love. I am not just concerned about what happens to me. I care what happens to the souls of other people. I would be in despair for them if I thought Calvinism were true. Calvinism isn’t just bad news for those not elect. It’s bad news for Christians who love others as themselves. Thank God it’s not true.
“If you are not one of the elect you couldn’t care less.”
So that somehow keeps it from being bad news? It doesn’t change the news for the non-elect from being, “you’re fated for Hell and there is nothing you can do about it and you never could. You never had a chance.” God making it so you won’t believe the news hardly turns it into good news or makes it much better.
“God neither forces anyone to be saved . . .”
According to Calvinism, God irresistibly changes the will of the person *against the person’s will* (i.e., the unbeliever hates God and does not want God to change his will and cause him to become a Christian). That amounts to forcing everyone who gets saved to be saved.
Plus, let’s remember the point that Calvinism itself offers no cogent assurance of salvation due to unconditional election combined with the fact that according to Calvinism one can only know one is elect if he perseveres until the end. (That’s why Michael hears from Calvinists doubting their salvation rather than Arminians.) Again see http://evangelicalarminians.org/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-13-salvation-assurance/ with the qualification I make above in comment 47 and expand on in comment 49.
Ha Greg, you might be surprised at how much I have read. This is a subject that has been greatly discusssed on many blogs for quite a few years now. Including here.
You say He doesn’t force anyone to be saved and that one that is not elect could care less. All great and good–until you realize that according to reformed thought, a person that is not elect can not and will not desire God because it is only when God regenerates a person that that becomes reality. And He deliberately refuses these folks that grace.
So, it follows then that the non elect have no chance whatsoever of desiring Him. And of course, they were non elect before their conception and birth. Before they had any opportunity to do one wrong thing. Created with no hope and no possibility whatsoever of desiring Him or of salvation. They didn’t ask to be born with a sinful nature. They didn’t ask to be born at all. But they were. And before they took their first breath they were doomed to an unending eternity in torment in hell. VERY good news for them indeed!
Greg, I really wonder if Calvinists always take the time to think through the implications of their doctrines. For the elect, the way you understand predestination is good news. But for the rest of humanity, to be born non elect with absolutely no hope from the first breath taken is bad, bad news indeed. Put yourself in the shoes of such a person for a moment. Think what it will be like to find yourself in that eternal torment. Do you think it is going to be lessened in the least because in this life “they could of cared less?”
Do you have children Greg? Have you thought about the possibility that you have fathered them with no hope that they will ever be in heaven? That God decided at some point way back in the distant past that your child will spend eternity in hell with no possible way of escape open to them? That idea simply horrifies me.
To be created/conceived/born as one of the non elect is a…
Greg you are not listening. As C.H. Mackintosh has said, “A disciple of the high school of doctrine [extreme Calvinist] will not hear of a world-wide gospel–of God’s love to the world–of glad tidings to every creature under heaven. He has only gotten a gospel for the elect.” If the reformed preacher were really honest about it, he would need to preach his doctrine along these lines: “Christ may have died for your sins. If you are one of God’s elect, then He died for you, but if not, then you have no Saviour. I cannot tell you that Christ died on the cross for you because I don’t know this for sure. If you believe the gospel then this proves that you are one of God’s elect, and then it is proper to speak of Christ dying for you.” What an insult to the God “who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1st Timothy 2:4). The Apostle Paul was not so handicapped when he preached the gospel to the unsaved Corinthians. He clearly proclaimed that “Christ died for our sins [yours and mine!].”
If Paul could preach that message, so should we and so must we!
About the original post,
Michael,
I know you are intending to help people suffering from anxiety over their salvation, but this approach sounds not so good. I wonder if you have had success with this in the past? Or is this more of a proposal?
If I were a doubting Calvinist, I don’t think it would help me. I would think: He’s told me
1) it’s not essential that you dwell on this doctrine, so just don’t think about it.
2) instead of thinking about it, act like an Arminian.
How is that a good way to calm the doubting Calvinist? Sounds like it’s more likely to make him paranoid and confuse his identity.
Trouble is, we are at heart ‘unbelievers’…and we are pretty much determined to stay that way.
“Lord I believe, help me in my unbelief”
‘Faith in our faith’ is not the way to go for REAL assurance.
Our Lord knew (knows) this. So He gave us the external Word and sacraments…tangible, in real time, that we could have assurance outside of anything that we do, say, feel, or think.
It’s there. But our reason just won’t let many of us take advantage of that gift.
Arminianism never changes. You can read Calvin’s Calvinism and hear the same old arguements. Since they hate election so much,do they believe in election? Absolutely. They elect themselves.God sends Jesus to make it possible for everyone to be saved.The fact that there were multitudes in hell when Jesus came does not penetrate their thinking.So Jesus comes to save all those who have elected themselves and all those who He has eternally known He would never save.The big shock comes after Arminians die. They then find out that if Calvinism were false,they would be burning in hell with the rest of the rebels.They then find out that Amazing Grace,not their Amazings decisions-works- saved them.Clark Pinnock is your normal Arminian. He stated that if Calvinism were true,that God would have a lot to answer for. The arrogance is amusing. Well,Clark is dead now. I can’t wait to find out How God handled his accusations and withering cross examination.
Jay,
So can you tell me how Calvinism is good news for the reprobate? That one that was born so depraved that he couldn’t turn to God and that God determined to leave just as He was?
@ Jay: Clark Pinnock is your normal Arminian? Wow. Talk about setting up straw man arguments. My church is solidly Arminian and has no truck with open theism.
Jay, I see that you are a very angry man and incapable of normal discourse, but before I leave this conversation, I would like to thank you for reminding me why I turned my back on Calvinism and have never looked back. The great joy that you find in the eternal damnation of the non-elect (and those that don’t dot their theological i’s and cross their scriptural t’s like you) is in stark contrast to the tears of Jesus Christ who wept over Jerusalem (Luke 19:41-44).
Not angry at all Allan. Still waiting for an answer to my statements. Quite sure you can’t answer them. Your the angry one. You can,t stand to hear that God won’t play your free-will game. He refuses to be your puppet and you don’t like it. He tells you he will give grace but won’t allow sinners to claim it.You want a god who is your servant rather than your master. Your not content to be clay in the hands of the Potter-a mere creature who is dust in the balance.The apostle Paul has already given God’s answer to the complainers such as yourself. Who art thou O man,who replieth against God?
Jay,
Alan did answer your statements. He pointed out that they are inaccurate portrayals of Arminianism (straw man arguments). The tone of your response to him tends to confirm his observations.
BTW, your reference to God’s answer misconstrues that passage from Romans 9. Here’s a better explanation of that passage: http://evangelicalarminians.org/an-apparently-not-so-brief-response-to-c-michael-patton-on-rom-9/.
Jay,
I haven’t seen any one that is a Calvinist answer (other then Greg’s, “they don’t care,”) how Calvinism is “good news” for the greatest share of humanity. Assuming we believe Jesus when He said that there are “few” on the road to life and many on the road to destruction, we then must assume that the “good news” only applies to a few people if we believe the Calvinist understanding of the Gospel.
How do you deal with “loving your neighbor as yourself” if you know that the largest percentage of those neighbors are on their way to hell and there is nothing you, they, nor any one else can do about it? And the only one that could, the one that is known as “the Great Physician,” has deliberately chosen to not do anything about it?
In my opinion, the Calvinist understanding of the good news is an extremely painful theology. The only ones that it is good news for are those that believe they are one of the elect.
You know, if I had been a Calvinist when I was a young married woman, I am not at all sure that I would of ever wanted to have children. I don’t know why any one would want to bring children into the world knowing that they may very possibly be a person that has been doomed to eternal destruction before they were ever conceived.
Lora. You are exactly right.Arminian churches are filled with sinners who prayed the sinner’s prayer and were never saved.The reason is simple. God saves according to His purpose and timing and not man’s.He also does not take orders from men.I was raised a Catholic. Hard to find a Church more deceptive than that one.An interesting survey of the SBC board was taken in 1993. They surveyed 350,000 baptized in SBC churches in 1993. They found out only 9% joined the Church for spiritual reasons.Over the years,surveys indicate that 90% of those who think they are being saved are being deceived.
I am not a Calvinist nor am I an Arminian. I reject both titles and theological systems. They both are the heretical and cult-like systems of fallible men. I choose to call myself a Biblist, or simply a “Bible believer.” I identify myself with my Savior and His word. I take no pride in the fact that I am saved, yet I am eternally grateful. I am awed by the truth that the Lord Jesus Christ died on Calvary’s cross for my sin. I am deeply and eternally grateful to God who loved this blind sinner that much! I totally reject the idea that I received salvation on any merit of my own! I was, as God said, a sinner, dead in trespasses and sin, sold unto sin, a child of sin, and with no righteousness of my own. I was saved by the sovereign act and plan of our loving God, who came to the earth, incarnate in man and totally paid my sin debt. I did not merit salvation and was totally in bondage to my sinful nature. I absolutely had no spark of divinity in me. Yet, God loved me, His created being, and suffered for me while I was yet in my sin. He illuminated my heart and provided the way that I might received His gift of grace and salvation. I did nothing to merit my salvation, but my gracious Creator offered His grace to me and I believed Him. I am not going to try and put Almighty God in a box and systematize God’s act of saving the sinner. I am just going to believe His very Word and thank Him for loving me, the sinner that I am, and forgiving my sin and giving me eternal life.
Btw CMP, Greg says for some reason he cannot post on this particular blog? He wrote me to tell you.
Btw, it seems to me there are some doubting Ariminan’s here too! 😉 And Reformed Theology/Divinity, as Calvinism also and included, is a real study (note Infralapsarian cherylu).
@Don: My greatgram was a PB (really an Irish “Brethren”), so I know this whole history pretty well! I see you quoted CHM. She was among the “Kelly” Brethren, then later she died with the so-called Open Brethren. And oh yes she was a great affect on me (though I was raised R. Catholic), in fact now, (since the mid 90’s, and after Gulf War 1) I am a Historic Pre-Mill and a PD, that’s Progressive Dispensationalist! But still an Evangelical Anglican and certain Reformed. 🙂
Btw, my last name is Darby (but no relation to JND however). Note I have preached a few times at an Open Brethren Conference (mid 2000’s). But not here.
Patton: “Therefore, from the perspective of those who don’t believe [e.g. the Arminian] that salvation can be lost, these cannot have any assurance.”
This is not accurate. There is assurance of present salvation. Whether one will be ultimately saved is irrelevant. As long as one is assured of his present position in Christ, there is no need to concern oneself about the future: “Do not worry for tomorrow…”
Fr Robert,
So you refer to infralasparianism. I honestly don’t see how that solves the bad news problem. So the decree of reprobation was made after man fell into sin rather then before. That does not in any way change the results for any individual man today. He is is still born doomed to hell with nothing he can do to change the situation.
I suppose now you will say that man made the choice to sin and so he deserves hell, right? That is the way the conversation usually goes. But what also seems to be forgetten in the usual conversation is that you also keep telling us that man was born in total depravity so that everything he does is tainted by sin–indeed he can not do anything that is not and he can’t seek or even desire God.
So when it comes right down to it, he was born with a fatal spiritual birth defect that insures he sin and therefore deserves death. But the birth defect itself is certainly not the fault of any individual man. It was inherited. Indeed, he didn’t even ask to be born! But besause he was and he is left in that state by the only One that can change it for anyone, he must spend eternity in eternal torment.
Where is any good news for that man?
Fr Robert,
I don’t see what difference whatever form of lasparianism you believe ultimately makes to any individual man.
I suppose you will say that God in infralasparianism reprobated men after the fall. That he was dealing with already fallen mankind when he made his decrees of reprobabion. And that any man goes to hell because he sins and therefore deserves it.
However, what seems to be ignored in these conversations is the fact that Calvinists are also very fond of reminding us all of the time that man is born with a totally depraved nature. That he sins because he is a sinner–that everything he does is tainted with sin and that he cannot do anything that isn’t. Indeed, he can’t even desire or turn to God in the condition he is born with.
So, basically he is born with a terminal spiritual “birth defect”–totally doomed to sin and therefore will assuredly
deserve hell. And there is nothing he can do about it, and nothing anyone else can do about it to help him. And God, the only One that could do something about it, has refused to help him. He didn’t ask for the birth defect, but he inherited it anyway. He didn’t even ask to be born, but he was. And now because of the birth defect that he was born with that rendered him certain to sin, he must spend eternity in horrible torment in hell with no hope of anything else for him from the moment of conception onward. (Sorry to keep repeating myself here, but it seems there are aspects of this that Calvinists never seem to see and implications they never seem to grasp.)
And this is supposed to be “good news” for this man?? One Calvinist that I was discussing these things with, agreed with me that it would of been better for this man to have never been born. But this is where Calvnist understanding has relegated most of mankind.
This is what I think of when I hear “good news”. It’s paragraph NUMBER ONE in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
“God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.”
The Good News I learn in the Catholic Church is that God calls everyone. Makes a path, through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, so that everyone who doesn’t reject his promptings and grace may become his child. And even if we fall away after we have believed, he will forgive! as the father forgave the prodigal son. Not only that! he loves us so much, and is so sovereign, that he can actually make us holy! not just called holy, but actually holy! From his infinite power and love, we receive power to be sons of God.
Hope for everyone! Joy to the world! What a wise and powerful God we have!
I pray that Calvinist Christians aka Reform Christians aka simply Biblical Christians have immense patience with those who have a persistent, unrelenting, caricatured, and distorted understanding of the Doctrines of Grace.
After a large number of good-faith attempts, it’s okay to cease, and to let them maintain their strawman understanding.
So, TUAD, what IS the strawman perception that I am putting forth? I have gleaned what I have said from your own writers and from conversations with many of you on this blog and quite a few other places down through the years. Nothing that I have said is not something that you folks aren’t putting forth yourselves. The only difference as I see it is that I am drawing conclusions from those statements that you (all of you) have made that for whatever reason you aren’t making.
And for the record, I did read some of the e book that Greg linked to yesterday. Didn’t read a lot, but nothing I have understood to be Calvinist belief was changed in the slightest by what I read there. And this isn’t the first time I have read anything written by this author either.
And still no one has has answered how this is “good news” for the reprobate. If you agree that it is terrible news for him and only good news for the elect, would someone of you, anyone of you here just speak up and say so?
Truth Unites
You did not answer Cherlyu question?
Cherylu,
I don’t mind going where you seem to be wanting to go, but it will take the direction of this thread away from the original point of CMP’s post. If CMP is okay with that, then I’m okay too.
Although a number of doctrines are intertwined, almost inseparable really, it seems like your comment is about the Doctrine of Limited Atonement.
Or do you want to talk about the Doctrine of Total Depravity and the Doctrine of Original Sin?
Or is it simply the Doctrine of Election and the Doctrine of Predestination, including “Double Predestination”?
What specifically do you want to focus on? Also, I will also probe you and any other Arminians about your alternative explanation to whatever you object in the Doctrines of Grace; namely your subscription of Libertarian Free Will and how you think it address doctrinal issues.
Your alternative explanation will be subject to the same biblical and theological scrutiny. It’s merely the same approach in discussions with atheists. If the atheist denies theism, the atheist is obligated to provide his alternative explanation and have it subjected to scrutiny and critique.
Fair enough?
@Truth Unites,
Caricatured? What part? Please refute the idea that Calvinism leaves hopeless those who love their fellow man, those who care for and ache for the souls of sinners, fallen away, non-elect, etc. What recourse have we in the world of Calvinism? Can we plead for mercy for the non-elect to Almighty God? To no avail. There is no recourse, no mercy, no acceptance, no home for the non-elect. This would be hard enough for them to bear in this life, but through eternity? Thinking about it now is like a nightmare.
Yes, there will certainly be people in hell. But those will be there through their own choosing, their own rejection of the grace of God. For any individual, we may yet have hope and recourse to the mercy of Almighty God. Except in Calvinism. In Calvinism, people are made to think that God leaves them helpless and hopeless.
If a Calvinist is fearful, he gets advice like CMP gave above. Don’t think about it and keep busy. That’s the answer? Really?
It’s even worse than that in Calvinism Irene. For Calvinism teaches that God unconditionally decreed the sin of the reprobate (and the sin of the elect too for that matter) and their rejection of the gospel etc. So not only does God leave them helpless and hopeless in Calvinism; he also was the ultimate and definitive reason they were sinful, helpless, and hopeless in the first place.
TUAD,
I am not trying to go into the whole issue of Calvinism here in all of it’s points. I am simply asking, and I am not the only one that has, how you can so glibly say that Calvinism is “the good news” when for the greater part of humanity it is not good news at all.
One more time, how can Calvinism be seen as “good news” for the reprobate? Or can it?
(Q) Irene: “@Truth Unites,
Caricatured? What part?”
(A) Alan Loewen: “The great joy that you [Jay, a Calvinist] find in the eternal damnation of the non-elect (and those that don’t dot their theological i’s and cross their scriptural t’s like you) is in stark contrast to the tears of Jesus Christ who wept over Jerusalem (Luke 19:41-44).”
And not just is it “good news” for the reprobate, but also is it “good news” for those who love the would-be reprobate?
Is anyone else have a horrible time getting comments to post here today?
Irene, you have said that very well.
And TUAD, you are still completely avoiding the question. Just this question. Not a debate about all of Calvinism.
Re: TUAD’s comment (#86),
How is Alan’s comment a caricature of Calvinism? It seemed to be his perception of one Calvinist’s comments here in this thread, not as representing the stance of Calvinism.
Re:#86,
So, Truth Unites, (and/or Jay),
You mean you DO weep for the bad news the non-elect receive in Calvinism?
Cherylu: “One more time, how can Calvinism be seen as “good news” for the reprobate?”
Go to comment #50. What do you read? Click on the link and read the entire essay.
Once you’ve done so, let me know. Thanks.
Irene: “Re:#86,
So, Truth Unites, (and/or Jay),
You mean you DO weep for the bad news the non-elect receive in Calvinism?”
“Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?” (Ezekiel 18:23)
Irene (and any other ill-informed non-Reform folks) every Biblical Christian I know echoes the Lord their God in this verse from Ezekiel.
Truth Unites
Answer the question in your own words if you believe this is what the Bible teaches. Is this God’s truth or this what you have read about Calvinism. Support your beliefs with the Bile rather than outside sources.
Cheryl’s I have had the same issues with posting.
I sent a quick e mail to Michael Patton letting him know there are problems with comments. At least three of us are having trouble here now that I know of.
Re: #92,
Truth Unites,
You said you echo the Lord in Ezekiel. So you are not pleased with the fate of the wicked.
If you are not pleased with the fate of the wicked, and Calvinism declares their fate sealed, then the declarations of the Calvinistic Gospel must not be good news for them.
Can you say one way or the other?