The issue of alcohol and the Christian is an incredibly volatile subject causing great division and stern judgments on both sides. I have been deeply affected by this issue myself, as I have many friends and family members who are controlled by alcohol. I am not a teetotaler, but I rarely drink. I don’t like wine. Some beers are pretty good. I like tequila. But if the consumption of alcohol were made illegal, I would not even really notice.
There are so many different positions out there with regard to this issue. Let me try to name a few:
- Those who abstain from alcohol and believe that this is the biblical position for everyone.
- Those who abstain from alcohol but don’t believe this is a biblical mandate to enforce on others.
- Those who drink alcohol only for “celebratory” purposes (i.e., Lord’s table), but don’t get drunk.
- Those who casually drink wine or beer, but abstain from “hard liquor” and don’t get drunk.
- Those who casually drink alcohol in order to feel “merry” or “tipsy” but don’t get drunk.
- Those who drink alcohol and get drunk occasionally but are not “drunkards” (i.e. addicted).
Outside of this, all Christians would (or should) agree that being addicted to alcohol is expressly forbidden in Scripture, as it relinquishes control of our faculties to alcohol rather than to the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18). Paul warns Timothy about such abuses with regard to the qualifications of a deacon (1 Tim. 3:8) and elders (1 Tim. 3:3).
I am not going to discuss here which of the above positions is correct. However, I do want to discuss one passage of Scripture that infuses the debate over alcohol with great passion. It is the subject of Christ and his relation to alcohol while here on earth. Most specifically, I want to ask the question of whether Christ, during the miracle at the Wedding of Cana in John 2, turned the water into wine, unfermented grape juice, or something else. Here is the text:
John 2:1-11
On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples. 3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” 6 Now there were six stone water jars there for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. 7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he said to them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast.” So they took it. 9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom 10 and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” 11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.
This question raised by this passage does indeed contribute a great deal to the overall debate. For if Christ turned the water into an alcoholic beverage, then his participation in the issue certainly does not bode well for those who preach that the biblical position requires Christians to abstain from alcohol altogether. He would have been serving as a bartender, if you will, at a celebration where abuse of alcohol certainly may have taken place. More than that, there is no reason to doubt that he himself would have drunk this wine.
Yet some maintain that the wine Jesus produced was a non-fermented type of wine called “new wine” (kainos neos). In this case, it would be like grape juice. Others believe that the wine Jesus created was watered down so much that one would have to suffer a severe bladder problem in order to get drunk. However, neither of these interpretations are supported by the best textual scholarship, and seem to be driven by a desire to maintain a rigid teetotaler position.
New Wine is Unfermented Wine?
R. A. Torrey does a good job of representing the position that the wine Christ provided was unfermented “new wine.”
“[Jesus] provided wine, but there is not a hint that the wine He made was intoxicating. It was fresh-made wine. New-made wine is never intoxicating. It is not intoxicating until some time after the process of fermentation has set in. Fermentation is a process of decay. There is not a hint that our Lord produced alcohol, which is a product of decay or death. He produced a living wine uncontaminated by fermentation. It is true it was better wine than they had been drinking, but that does not show for a moment that it was more fermented than that which they had before been drinking” (Difficulties in the Bible).
However, there are significant problems with this argument. New wine was fermented. Its ability to cause intoxication is well represented in the Scriptures (Is 49:26; Hos 4:11; cf. Judg 9:13; see “Wine” Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels. 1992 [J. B. Green, S. McKnight & I. H. Marshall, Ed.], 870, Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press).
The happenings in Acts 2 represent this well. Having received the gift of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, the Apostles are speaking in tongues and sharing the Gospel with the people. Some people are amazed, but others accuse the Apostles of being intoxicated.
Acts 2:13:
“But others, mocking, said, ‘They are filled with new wine’.”
How could the Apostles be accused of being intoxicated from a drink that is not fermented? There is no indication, either in the culture of the day or in the Bible, that there was such a thing as unfermented wine. Wine is wine because it is fermented.
Some scholars have attempted to contrast the two Hebrew terms for wine in the Old Testament to make a case that one was unfermented grape juice. However, the evidence does not support such a conclusion. Leaning heavily on C. Seltman, Wine in the Ancient World, the Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible draws this conclusion about the term that is purported to refer to grape juice:
(1) The Hebrew word is found in primarily neutral contexts; (2) often that particular word is found in contexts definitely including a fermented beverage (e.g., Gn 27:28; Hos 4:11; Mi 6:15); (3) the Ugaritic parallel to the term in question refers with certainty to a fermented wine (4) the Septuagint equivalents refer to fermented wine; (5) fermentation in the ancient Near East, unlike Greece, took only about three days, and (6) the Mishna provides no such evidence of the practice of having unfermented wine. There seems to have been no attempts to preserve wine in an unfermented state; it may have been a near impossible task.
It would seem that, for the Hebrews, there is no way to use the term “grape juice” as a substitute for wine. The article concludes: “A careful examination of all the Hebrew words (as well as their Semitic cognates) and the Greek words for wine demonstrates that the ancients knew little, if anything, about unfermented wine.
Watered Down Wine?
Some make the case that the wine used in the New Testament was so watered down that it was nearly impossible to cause one to get drunk. Norman Geisler make such a case:
Wine today has a much higher level of alcohol than wine in the New Testament. In fact in New Testament times one would need to drink twenty-two glasses of wine in order to consume the large amount of alcohol in two martinis today. (“A Christian Perspective on Wine-Drinking” Bibliotheca Sacra, Issue 553, 1982).
However, this does not seem to be the case. Geisler is assuming a mixture evidenced by some ancient Greeks. Homer writes about a water to wine ratio of 20 to 1 (Homer, Odyssey 10. 208f). However, this may be because the wine was so strong! The Mishna, which represents a better accounting of the Hebrew usage of wine, assumes a ratio of two parts of water to one part wine. The Talmudic sources speak of three to one. Wine often would contain 15% alcohol. Even if it were mixed with three parts of water, this would put it at 5% alcohol. This is a higher percentage than much beer today! Pliny, the Roman Senator writing in the first century, spoke about wine that could hold a flame. For this to happen, it would had to have been in excess of 30% alcohol! No wonder some speak of adding twenty parts water.
Not only this, but wine diluted with water was symbolic of spiritual adulteration. Isaiah 1:22, speaking to the infidelity of the nation of Israel, says, “Your silver has become dross, your best wine mixed with water.” Just before this, God gives this rebuke: “How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.” The nation had gone astray. It is not seen as a good thing to have diluted wine.
Further (and most importantly) the story of Jesus at the wedding does not support a conclusion that the wine Jesus made was either excessively watered down or grape juice. After the head waiter had tasted the wine Jesus made, he went to the bridegroom and said this: “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” What Jesus created was “good wine.” According to the waiter, the custom was to serve the “good wine” first; then, when the people had “drunk” much of the wine, they served the cheaper wine. This word for “drunk” is methusko, which means “to become intoxicated.” It is the same word used in Ephesians 5:18, “Do not get drunk [methusko] with wine…” (see also Luke 12:45; 1 Thes 5:7; Rev. 17:12). The only testimony we have about the state of the wine Christ created is the headwaiter’s review of it, and he suggests that it is the type that can intoxicate (i.e., it was fermented). It is very difficult to draw any other conclusion.
Added to this, there is no reason to believe that Christ himself did not drink this fermented wine. It is evident that He drank wine at the passover (Mark 14:23). In fact, Christ seemed to have made a habit of drinking wine. According to his own testimony, he drank wine that others abstained from.
For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!” (Luke 7:33-34).
John the Baptist took a Nazirite vow and abstained from alcohol. But Christ did not. He explicitly says that he came “eating and drinking.” Because of this, others accused him of being a drunkard.
The implications for all of this are important in the discussion about alcohol and the Christian. Christ, in celebration of the Kingdom, produced an alcoholic beverage that could intoxicate. Christ was a bartender! This certainly does not solve any of the problems associated with alcohol. The problems are tremendous. But to be controlled by alcohol is not a modern problem. This problem has been around since ancient times. However, this does not mean that God forbids things that have the potential to be destructive. We must be careful that we don’t legislate God. It is not unlike issues of gun control, sugar consumption, or tobacco. All of these have potential to hurt people, all of these have a history of hurting people, all of these have people who attempt to force moderation or abstinence, but none of them are forbidden by God. We must be careful in what we attempt to forbid, even if the legislation is for a good purpose. The solution for problems associated with alcohol is not a mandate for abstinence, but education concerning its dangers.
181 replies to "Did Jesus Turn Water into Wine or Grape Juice?"
So John was to be held to a higher standard than Jesus? Drinking was ok for him but not John. The Bible constantly tells us that a Christian needs to be sober and not given to strong drink. But if people want to get buzzed or socially drink or unwind and not push it then I guess go for it and play with fire. I just can’t see Jesus giving people the opportunity to sin.
“what I was saying is if the Bible says Jesus didn’t drink wine or strong drink and drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God, then why would his first miracle cause people to sin.
not sure how then alcohol is a gift from God.”
Aaron, firstly, as Chad has already said, the Bible nowhere says that Jesus refrained from wine and strong drink.
Secondly, you seem to be confusing drinking with getting drunk. Does everyone who has a sex end up having sex with someone of their own sex or an animal or some other sinful situation? Does everyone who has money end up being a greedy person, someone who would kill to keep it? Does everyone who eats become a glutton? Does everyone who is given authority abuse it? I’m assuming you’re a reasonable person and the answer to these is a resounding NO! So then why is it that you think people cannot drink alcohol without getting drunk?
Thirdly I’ve written an essay on the topic, showing very clearly from the Scriptures (not from my imagination) that not only is alcohol (wine, beer, strong drink) a good gift from God, but that He even commands His people to participate in consuming it in His presence. If you are willing to look at the Biblical evidence, send me an email at stegokitty at gmail.
The Lord bless you and keep you.
Stego,
This topic is not a big deal for me. God had its seek him and have the Holy Ghost lead us to how God wants us to live. That is the key, having God show us, not us showing him how we want to live. so my concerns are people who want to still get drunk using scripture to tell God this is why they will drink instead of asking God to convict to them if he is fine or “blessing” them with alcohol and how much they can have and what type(s) of alcohol. I know God doesn’t want be to drink so I don’t try to find scriptures to justify it.
Aaron, I wholeheartedly agree that we are not to tell God how we want to live but are to submit to His will. I don’t see anyone in this group (including myself) who wish to get drunk, nor to get God’s approval of getting drunk, nor of making excuses for getting drunk. You appear to be assuming that neither I nor anyone else here have sought the Scriptures on this matter. I just told you that this is not the case, and the Scriptures (that very Word of God which tells us how we are to live) support my position. You may be right that God does not want YOU to drink … not in this life, for whatever reason. I have no idea what God wants you to do concerning alcohol. And you have no idea of what God wants the rest of us to do about alcohol. Let’s let the Lord Himself speak:
“And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,” (Deut 14:26).
This is only one instance, but I use it because of how blatant it is that God not only prescribes and approves of buying and drinking alcohol, but says to do so with rejoicing, in His presence.
For you to do so would be sin, as you cannot with a clear conscience, but I can and so can others.
Do you agree or disagree, and if the latter, why?
And tell me what it is that you disagree with concerning the verse I just quoted (even from the KJV in case anyone wanted to give me any lip for using a “lesser” version).
if God uses that scripture to show someone it’s okay for them to drink wine, beer, or spirits then I am sure God will also show them the NT scripture that says Drunkards shall not inheret the kingdom of God. so then it’s all on that person to control themselves.
I realize nobody here wants to get drunk but there are people that always want to party and get drunk and yet still be considered a Christian. so those types of people always look to this discussion and say good Christians think it’s okay for me to get drunk and bypass asking God about it.
but again for me it’s not a big deal so thank you for your responses but I don’t feel the need for us to continue going back and forth since both of us are convicted in our own ways. if people want to know for themselves if it’s okay for them to drink and ask me I will tell him exactly what I believe but yet so love God will have to show them.
Aaron: ” I realize nobody here wants to get drunk but there are people that always want to party and get drunk and yet still be considered a Christian. so those types of people always look to this discussion and say good Christians think it’s okay for me to get drunk and bypass asking God about it”
Someone like that would be a reprobate, and would be looking for an excuse to get drunk. It doesn’t matter what you or I or anyone would say to that kind of person, no matter how much love and Scripture you give to them. It’s also highly unlikely that someone like that would even be in a theological discussion group. That’s not what anyone in this discussion has been trying to do. While I don’t think the “Jesus is a bartender” line is very appropriate, you and I are required to agree with what the Lord Himself says He will do for His people as a blessing: “On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.” (Isaiah 25:6)
and … “And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, ‘The old is good.’” (Luke 5:39)
And I’m wondering if you’re going to be honest enough to agree that God, in the Deuteronomy passage says exactly what I suggested.
Stego,
Why are you trying to convince me? why do you have to feel right? I am not upset but like I said over and over its not a big deal for me but u need to feel u are right. I wont admit u are right because my opinion means nothing and I don’t want to use valueable prayer time to ask God what a NIV or whatever version u quoted means. I read the kjv and it only says ‘wine’ not ‘well-aged’ wine. so obvsly our discussion will stop here since im not getting into the difference between our bibles. God convicted to me to read and follow his guidance from the kjv. so I realky don’t care how others interpret other versions because it leads to disagreements over not important things like this.
hope im not coming across as mean or upset but I’ve tried to end this debate because we are getting nowhere.
God Bless and Happy Good Friday
Aaron, actually you’re coming across as obstinate and “wanting to be right”. This isn’t about ME wanting to be right but declaring what the Scriptures clearly say and teach. And the KJV does NOT only say “wine” it says ” And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined”.
Notice the two descriptives “on the lees” and “well refined”, BOTH which mean fermented, well-aged wine. In fact it means wine that has been purposefully treated in order to bring about MORE fermentation. Even a quick search for the definition of the word brings us this “Lees refers to deposits of dead yeast or residual yeast and other particles that precipitate, or are carried by the action of “fining”, to the bottom of a vat of wine after fermentation and aging.”
Yet another shining example of why the KJV is not a helpful version because people today don’t even know what they’re reading.
And you haven’t addressed the verse that I DID quote from the KJV where God says to the people of Israel to buy strong drink and to eat and drink before Him with rejoicing.
Why is it so hard to admit that (perhaps) you’ve misunderstood the character of God and of His good gifts? I’m not trying to convince you to drink. I don’t want you to at all. You can’t as you haven’t a clear conscience of it. What I want you to do is to receive God as He is. and not as you think He ought to be.
Stego,
As I have said before, I know God does not want me to drink so that is all I care about. I don’t care if he is ok or not ok with others drinking. I read the Bible as my roadmap. I see it as my contract with God. My relationship with God is laid out in the Bible and how the Holy Spirit leads me to live. So in it states what God does in our relationship and what I do. Therefore, I don’t read it, or furthermore ask God about his contract with others, especially with things that have nothing to do about making or missing Heaven.
More specifically, our relationship contract with God is mostly found in the NT-where it says Drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, Christians are to be sober and not given to strong drink, etc. So God’s relationship with his children in the OT regarding wine has zero effect on me or others. Jesus came and died for us and set up a new relationship and new covenant in the NT. The temple’s veil was torn in two meaning the common man now can have a more intimate relationship with Jesus.
So since I read the Bible, mainly the NT to define my walk with Christ and if I come across something I fully don’t understand I look up words in the dictionary, find their Hebrew and Greek meaning and most importantly pray as to what God is showing me. So I really don’t care if someone is right about an OT scripture and if it shows them they can drink. I am not losing sleep (but am using my time) about trying to find out this drinking debate.
If all you want is for me to tell you that you are right, than I can say if what you are telling me God has convicted to you, than sure, you are right concerning your relationship. But I don’t take people’s word how they view scripture or how they tell me God has revealed them to me without me praying to God first. And sorry if this is insulting, I am not taking the time to pray on if this scripture means OT people can drink.
I will never discount the OT but I honor God’s NT…
There is NOTHING in the New Testament that tells Christians to avoid “strong drink”.
Aaron: “So God’s relationship with his children in the OT regarding wine has zero effect on me or others”
And: “And sorry if this is insulting, I am not taking the time to pray on if this scripture means OT people can drink.
I will never discount the OT but I honor God’s NT…”
How can you insult me with such a proclamation?
The only one you offend is God.
You have basically said “If God has thusly dealt with people, and it offends my sensibilities, then I will not study nor pray about it, as I will have God in the image that I have prescribed for Him.”
And you’ve displayed a clear disregard for the meaning of words (God does not tell you the meanings of words through prayer — that’s why He gave us Webster)
God does not change.
There is zero indication in the NT that anything concerning alcohol has changed from the OT, because in fact Jesus turned water into WINE (not grapejuice, as the context of the wedding forbids any such absurdity).
This is about someone who refuses to back down from a wrong conclusion about God.
Your responses are idolatrous and very disturbing.
ok then. we are at a good stopping point, lol. I know who I am, read the Bible as God’s roadmap for me and will lead others to have God show them how to live. if people want to drink and find scriptures where God is ok with it but realize God demands people to be sober since drunkards won’t go to Heaven, God bless them.
yes the OT is our school master and shows God’s patience and the NT doesn’t discount it, but I first pray for God to direct me in a standard, decision, etc then read the Bible so God will convict a scripture. I dont make up my mind as to what I want to do then find a scripture to support it and ask God if it’s ok. not saying people here do that, but others do. also since God planted me in a church, a lot of my answers during sermons.
so once again, sorry if I came across mean or uncaring. I don’t look to website discussions for my answers so I should’ve posted my beliefs here.
Sorry I meant to say I should not have posted my beliefs here.
Wow. I am really late to the party I see. Did I miss it? Given the 5 month period of threads, it must have been a great party! I didn’t intend to be here, but in my ‘drunken stupor’ from googling “the history of wine” (huge Cali Zinfandel lover here, albeit not to the extent of father Noah perhaps) I somehow stumbled on a link and ended up in this party room. I must say up front that I loved the blog article. Great work!
While I can’t say I loved some of the resultant replies, I must say I haven’t laughed so hard in a long time, as hard as the “holy laughter” of a Charismatic “Vineyard” member who swallowed the Holy Spirit, feathers and all!
I need to get out more, out of the clicks of my own denomination’s blogs that is, realize again that people really do have some ‘interesting’ notions and ‘methods’ of interpreting Holy Scripture, or lack thereof. What do I call it? Eisegesis from a modern-day pharisaical teetotaler ascetic point of view? (Albeit when confronted with clear scripture then we’ll retreat to a disregarding, defiant, subjective, Gnostic posture of “Well, G-O-D may spell ‘God’ to you, but it spells ‘Dog’ to me!) Do they know what a metaphor is? Or reading things in their context? Or of letting Scripture be its own interpreter? Of speaking where Scripture speaks and being silent where Scripture is silent? But oh, they’re just “Bible Believers” unlike me. I just believe the argument really boils down to who has the right hermeneutic, if they have one at all.
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that some of the posters would be indignant with the blog author for calling Jesus a bartender. Yeesh, to think that I bartended whilst attending seminary in order to pay tuition! Just what connotation do they think the labels for Jesus of “Carpenter’s son”, “of Nazareth”, had for the people during his days of visible tabernacling among them? And Galilean fisherman/tax men as followers, and ex-prostitutes as groupies?
I’m gonna try to make this short. It’s late and I’m tired. There is NO way that God wants us to drink alcohol. If during the efforts to interpret a scripture it contradicts other scripture and teachings of scripture, then you are NOT interpreting it correctly. Jesus would have cast more stumbling blocks at that wedding than anybody in history if it was alcoholic. Furthermore, no one really knows if their gonna be an alcoholic until they are one. Jesus would NEVER want anybody in that unwise position, drinking until they found themselves to be an addict. The Bible teaches us to be wise. Drinking IS NOT WISE. It is a sin to be unwise. Jesus was not unwise. To top it off, it is shocking how some on here have moved the goal posts, so to speak, to now the strongest drinks available is supposed to be alright. Then the goal posts were moved on how messed up you have to be before your really drunk enough to be a sin. JUST LISTEN TO YOURSELVES. It’s inevitable though, once you start accepting that Jesus was a wino that things get out of hand.
Chris:
Pages and pages of biblical exegesis with the weight of the evidence being on wine being a regular and approved dietary staple used in moderation and your rebuttal is “THERE IS NO WAY…LISTEN TO YOURSELVES!! I JUST KNOW IT CAN”T BE!!
Really?
Chris, I am sorry but you are guilty of eisegesis – reading your own narrative into the Bible. You may not like or agree with the view that wine in moderation is acceptable, but there is overwhelming evidence that this is what the Bible teaches. The belief in total abstinence for Christians only began with the temperance movement and has never been part of historic christian teaching, including that of all the great reformers.
No folks. It doesn’t add up. You all are supporting your views the way you claim I am. And Chad, when I said listen to yourselves, I was referring to the people on here, and I’m not going back to see who they are, that says that you can get really drunk before your sinful. Also the ones that says basically God approves of Vodka, whiskey, ever clear or whatever. Contradicts other clear teaching. Proverbs 20: 1 and Proverbs 23: 31. You can’t crawl over those and say wine or any alcoholic beverage is permissible. So one has to go back to the drawing board and figure out what the Bible really says. Overwhelming evidence it’s ok??? Hardly. Abstinence began with temperance movement? No, it begin at least as far back as Proverbs. The reformers? They were learning after a long period of doctrinal darkness. They didn’t get everything right either. Maybe we should think of the temperance movement as a sort of reformation as well.
Guess I’l say a bit more. I am 55 years old. I have observed people since I can remember. I have observed drinking people most of this time, even though I tried to avoid drinkers. It is my experience that people that drink, at some point are going to get drunk. Even if it’s by ‘accident’. I think most on here will agree that’s a sin. I have watched as social drinkers turned in to full blown alcoholics that would be drunk well before noon. They never recovered until their dying day. People such as this also set the pattern for generations to follow in their family. Like a curse. Even if you are right that alcohol is not totally forbidden, Romans 13:14 pretty well would forbid the use of it as making provision for the flesh, as a drinker is likely to go to far.
Chris, I see the best way to reconcile the contradictions is to take the verses in proverbs as referring to alcohol in excess. That requires far less creative thinking than saying that God’s people were drinking unfermented grape juice when the text says wine. People become addicted to sex and money as well, but we don’t ban them completely.
Opps. let me finish…. a dinker is likely to go too far, not only for themselves, but for the making of provision for the lust of the flesh in future generations as well. I know that pretty much everyone on here is set in their opinions. You folks are not likely to change, neither am I. It’s obvious that some on this page has more formal education than I do. That doesn’t make them right. I think all would agree on that. After all, there are atheists with more education than all of us. Everybody on here would agree that they are wrong or you wouldn’t be on here would you?
Get out your Strongs. Mines in storage. I think you will find that the word translated as wine in the verse in question is something like ‘fruit of the vine.’ That can be either. So it is not so clearly fermented wine.
Also reference Matt 9:17. Makes it about as clear as can be what new wine and old wine is. Don’t know much else to say if that’s not adequate.
Chris, the phrase “fruit of the vine” is used by Jesus in the synoptic gospels, it is from the Jewish blessing for wine, which always refers to fermented wine, not grape juice.
Education in itself doesn’t guarantee correctness, but lack thereof is more likely to produce a wrong answer. If you were ill, who would you want to be treated by? A fully qualified physician, or someone who’s hung around hospitals and read a few medical books?
Many heresies and false teachings begin when uneducated people read the Bible and arrive at conclusions which cannot be supported from the original languages or historical context.
On the subject of alcohol, there is some disagreement amongst theologians and I would never say that the answer can be given with absolute certainty, however the abstinence case is very much a minority opinion and I regard the scriptural support for it as very weak.
I realize it is a minority opinion. I don’t think the case for abstinence is weak though. If the Bible had totally forbid it any stronger, then it could never have been used for any medicinal purpose, which it sometime was in Biblical times. That may be why it seems weak to you. Take the whole council of God, not just look for a loophole for permission. Would have said that a little different, but best I can do right now. LOL. For me, it is not in the character of God to permit alcoholic use for recreational purposes, which is basically all it’s used for these days. Recreational for this discussion would include relaxation.
Chris,
“And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,” (Deut 14:26).
The problem is that you’re voicing your opinion versus we, who are voicing what the Scriptures clearly teach and what, historically is the necessary interpretation.
Just in this one verse God makes it CLEAR about His not only having noting against the right and lawful and good use of the good gift of alcohol but that He approves of such in His presence, even in a holy convocation.
The case for abstinence isn’t weak, it’s absurd.
Your observance of people abusing alcohol and claiming that thusly one cannot rightly partake is as ridiculous as saying “I’ve seen many people abuse (cake, sex, money, power, bacon, etc.) and therefore this is the only way that the use of it can be done, and therefore it’s sinful, so no one should call himself a Christian and eat cake, or bacon, or get money, or possess authority/power, nor have sex, except only to produce children.”
Fundamentalism infused with moralism = the destruction of Christianity and of all reason.
This isn’t about looking for a “loophole of permission” but of the entire council of God which teaches not only (as per the verse above) that it’s “okay” and even approved to partake of the good gift of fermented drink, but that to forbid such is to fall into the error of “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.” (Col 2:16).
I’ve written an essay on the topic, though no doubt someone who has made up his mind about what God MUST be like (like himself) would not be interested in such. I’ve attempted to post it here but it’s too long. IF you want to surprise me, ask me and I’ll send it to you in email.
Yeah, send it to me. [email protected]. So does that verse in Duet mean I can hire prostitutes as well? Whatsoever my soul desires.
Shawn, I know you were trying to make a point, but you were putting a lot of words in my mouth.
Chris, you said “Yeah, send it to me. [email protected]. So does that verse in Duet mean I can hire prostitutes as well? Whatsoever my soul desires.”
Please notice that you didn’t actually address what the verse says plainly. And then you followed it up by an absurdity. There is not and cannot be a right and lawful use of prostitutes (in their normal line of work), seeing as the 7th commandment forbids any sexual activity outside the bond of marriage. And that is why I was able to take such liberties with “putting words into your mouth” because it’s precisely the sort of things you’ve proven to say … as per your previous comment. There ya go.
I’ve sent the essay to you in email.
Hopefully you’ll read it and be willing to be wrong if indeed you are … which you are.
And Chris, I wasn’t aware that one could (unless he was a cannibal) eat a prostitute. So once again, your rebuttal fails to hold water.
“And Chris, I wasn’t aware that one could (unless he was a cannibal) eat a prostitute. So once again, your rebuttal fails to hold water.”
While I have been agreeing with Shawn Hare…I really wish he hadn’t written that last sentence…..
Way too many double entendres going on there
Chad, I didn’t intend any “double entendres”. I believe my response to Chris is quite valid. I suppose one might be able to make a “double entendre” of just about anything, hence the “that’s what she said” office/workplace jokes.
But I was being completely and literally serious. Chris was using prostitution as a means of sand-bagging against actually addressing the verse I’d posted, when the verse is clearly talking about what one eats and drinks “before the Lord”. Jews (and Christians) are not in the habit of eating human beings, and therefore, contextually to bring up anything that is neither food nor drink, and present it as a means of rebuttal (really against what God commanded) it simply doesn’t work.
Nothing new to add. Just wanted to keep the comment thread going until He comes back to tread the grape juice press of the fury of God the Almighty.
My feeling on the whole matter is that if we spent as much time blogging on the benefits of being filled with the Spirit as we do on whether or not wine is wine or just plain grape juice we would all be much better off. I’m just saying. 🙂
Let’s say Jesus DID make grape juice. You teetotalers still have all your work ahead of you, explaining why Jesus didn’t break up the party at Cana, roust out the drunkards, and basically go all “cleansing the Temple” on them. Why didn’t he lecture them about their sin of drinking? Tell them to “go and sin no more”? Why would he even be seen partaking in this debauchery?
One other point: It’s always the very people who claim that the King James Version is the only inerrant translation of the Scripture who turn around and say wine doesn’t mean wine, day doesn’t mean day, generation doesn’t mean generation, King of Tyre doesn’t mean King of Tyre, and so on.
wow. The excuses you people make for drinking are amazing! Proverbs tells us to not even look at wine! Someone on here said that Jesus liked to have a good time. No dear, that is what you want to think. The ancient Jews had several ways of preserving grape juice by the way. What does the bible say about he who gives strong drink to his companions? Look it up! You really need to do more research. You are accusing Jesus of encouraging something that causes sin
mel: “Proverbs tells us to not even look at wine!”
Reference please? But I won’t hold my breath, since there exists no such verse in the Bible.
“You really need to do more research”
Really? How do you interpret such verses as this one:
“… then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep OR WINE OR STRONG DRINK, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.” (Deut 14:25-16)
And this is but one of many verses in the Bible showing that wine, beer, and strong drink are good gifts from God, just as are wealth, health, sex, authority, food, etc., all of which are abused, but no one goes about saying we need to stop participating in them because of their abuses.
IF you’re actually willing to hear the Scriptures speak, rather than your own emotions, I’ve written an essay on the topic, one that is FILLED with the Word. Let me know, and I’ll send you a copy in email.
Funny, God is telling people to have at what they lust after for. That makes sense.
Let’s not forget we are flesh. We want to please ourselves. So if we live after the flesh we will find scriptures that will ease our consious. We will pretty much tell God, “Stop convicting me of this, you said here I can do it.”
Let’s not forget God will always back down when we prove we want something. His will never overrides our will. His still small voice will never be louder/stronger than your own will.
But my wife and many others had sins, habits, and most importantly, the desire for drinking, drugs, sex, etc leave her life INSTANTLY when she got saved.
But I guess God “trusts” others with drinking and other things so it’s ok for them. “Work out your own salvation”, huh?
“God, for my salvation I will do this for you and this for me.”
Why do “Christians” want to drink? Are they missing out? Do they miss it from their old life, before they were saved? Do they want to fit in and not be peculiar?
What happened to Come out and be ye separate, touch not the unclean and I will recieve you?” Are we convincing ourselves that alcohol is a clean thing?
Pick up a beer, wine bottle or spirit and think about what it represents. What part of it would please God?
But Shawn, if you are not abusing alcohol, when is it ok to use? For “health” reasons? Culture, celebration? What happens if you accidently get buzzed or drunk? Oh well, God forgive me, give me the strength not to drink so much next time?
….drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God, but I guess you can get buzzed or kick back with sinners you are “trying to win for Christ so I must appeal to them and be like them to win them.”
I have no doubt that Jesus made real wine, there really shouldn’t be this debate. My question is what kind of wine? assume red, but what grape? what was popular or common to that region at that time? Would he have made something common to that region at all or did he dip into his personal cellar and pull something special out?
Aaron,
There are so many problems with what you posted, but I’ll try and keep this as simple as possible.
But first I must ask, Are you going to address the Deuteronomy passage I posted in my previous response?
I also posted it elsewhere, but it’s been summarily ignored by “teetotalers” far and wide. It’d be nice if you’d address it in an honest manner.
You also said “But my wife and many others had sins, habits, and most importantly, the desire for drinking, drugs, sex, etc leave her life INSTANTLY when she got saved.”
Um, your wife lost her desire for sex?
I feel sorry for you, bud.
That’s really too bad.
And your question to me about “abusing” alcohol is a display of conflating terms. There’s a difference between someone getting drunk by accident, and a drunkard. You DO know that, right?
As for how much is okay, that’s like anything else in life. It’s going to depend on the situation. If I’m at home, it’s okay for me to have a little more than I would in public, for the simple reason that I’m not driving. However, I tend to not care much for anything but a single beer or glass of wine or gin and tonic or brandy in the evening if I’m by myself. My wife doesn’t care for the taste of alcohol, so that’s that.
But like anything else, be it money, or sex, or power, or food, or drugs (prescription even) — ALL of these can be abused. There are more people abusing sex than abusing alcohol, but I don’t see Christians crying for other Christians to stop having sex … Oh … sorry about that. I forgot that your wife lost her desire.
As I’ve said before, I’ve written a little essay on the topic of the Christian and fermented drinks. It’s absolutely chock full of Scripture. I’m happy to send it to you, if you’re willing to read it. I use gmail, and my name is stegokitty.
Cheers!
Shawn,
My wife got saved when she was in her early twenties before we met. So now obvsly we have a healthy sex life. If God is fine with you drinking, go for it. I just know he doesnt want me to. But I dont feel I am missing out or cabt relate to sinners. I am sure you are wise enough not to try to convince people like meto drink but oobviously you had enough of a desire to drink that you researched on it. God will judge us individually so if others he has convicted not to drink and they do, they will be judged no matter if they remind God of your essay or not.
I am still curious why Christians would want to drink. Again, if it’s to fit in withsinners, then they are fellowshipping with darkness. Alcohol represents to many bad things. For me it’s unclean so I will touch not so I can be recieved.
I really cant picture Jesus kicking back with a beer or spirit since he died to take the power from alcoholism and heal diseases it brings. If you think he would drink I guess it wouldn’t be around my wife since he took drinking out ofher life wwithout her even asking. All she was praying was the sinners prayer but it does make sense sins get washed while praying that prayer. But are you arguing God is good with her drinking again as long as she doesnt get drunk? That means he would be good with her swearing as long as it was every now and then.
But I am not trying to convince you since you want to drink and like I said, I am sure you are not trying to convince others to drink. But send me some essays on things that really matter and will save souls. I am sure you just didnt write essays on it’s okay for Christ-like people to drink, lol. You probably have a good deal of knowledge on how to win sinners to Christ, recieving the Holy Gjost, and spiritual gifts so I’d like to read those. Send me links to those blogs please.
I absolutely do not believe that Jesus served fermented wine to a group of people who had already been drinking for hours…. which means some of them were probably buzzed. That would mean Jesus would have done something that would likely cause some people to stumble. That would violate His own word which says do not cause anyone to stumble.
Also, there are numerous other scriptures that I believe show that Jesus did not drink alcohol or serve up alcohol like a bartender to others. And the fact that so many people believe that He did is kind of amazing to me.
That is not to say that drinking is a sin. Getting drunk is a sin, yes, we all agree on that. But drinking in and of itself is not. And I think God allows each of us to figure out for ourselves, as Christians, whether or not it is wise to drink. But it is undeniable that there are a number of scriptures that warn about drinking. (not just getting drunk, but just drinking period) So I don’t believe Jesus would set an example of drinking alcohol and handing out drinks to others.
Hi Lily,
I notice that you (conveniently?) left out all of the “numerous verses” that supported your position, namely that Jesus did not drink alcohol, nor serve it to others (in both the wedding feast at Cana, and at the Last Supper with His closest disciples); and conspicuously missing are the “undeniable number” of Scriptures that warn about drinking alcohol.
I also must wonder if you’ve ever had a drink in your life. I’m not asking this to be a “smarty” but because quite often it’s those folks who end up making the claim (from their emotions, NOT from anything in the Scriptures) that Jesus did not (and would not!) serve real, fermented wine to people who were already buzzed. I challenge you: try and hand someone who’s been drinking real wine a glass of grapejuice and I can guarantee you ONLY one reaction — them spitting it out immeidately.
They’d have to be so smashed that their tastebuds were dead in order to think that fresh grape juice was fermented wine.
But let’s just let the Word speak for itself:
“When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.” (John 2:9-11 ESV)
The Master of the feast notices that the finest AGED wine was being served AFTER the “okay” stuff, which is not how it’s done. You serve the good stuff FIRST, and then when everyone’s tied on a good buzz and their tastebuds aren’t quite as accurate, you can bring out the lesser stuff.
And Jesus did this to MANIFEST HIS GLORY. What’s His glory? That He is GOD, the Creator, who created a world that appeared to be millions of years old,…
Shawn we get it. You really like drinking. Maybe you were a big partier before getting saved and had no problems letting God clean drugs, sex, smoking, swearing out of your life but you wanted to hold on to drinking so you found all these scriptures. Good for you.
If people ask you would you give it up for God if he asked you probably dodge rhe question and say God would never ask me to give up something he is ok with and you do it in moderation.
Speaking of dodging questions, please respond to me and give me links to studies about actual, eternity changing, important things. Like the gifts of the Spirit, healing, separation from the world, tithing/giving, You know things that move the heart of God, not pleasing the flesh.
Aaron,
This has nothing to do with whether or not I participate in drinking alcohol. It has to do with TRUTH. I’M not the one(s) denying the CLEAR teaching of the Scriptures. You, Lily, and others are quite busy IGNORING the Scriptures, and substituting your emotions.
I haven’t “dodged” anything. This is (yet another) emotional outburst from someone who hasn’t really got a supported position other than his wife’s life experience.
And I SENT you the essay I did on the Christian and alcohol. Did you read it? Probably not. This conversation is about the Christ, the Christian, and alcohol — it’s not ABOUT the gifts of the Spirit and “eternity changing” things, though it is important. It’s always important to think rightly about God, which apparently is only important to you, so long as God fits into the neat little box you’ve prepared for Him.
So really your entire final paragraph is a dodge, hidden in a self-righteous challenge.
Shawn, supportive position? Do not drink to excess, drunkards shall not inherit thekingdom of God. Do not give over to strong drink. I have no desire to drink so I guess I dont have to find a reason God would be ok with it.
But if I let my flesh start to take over and want to dabble in porn, or flirting with women (or men) or whatever, I will be sure to contact you and find truth in the Bible.
Again, if you want to drink, the Bible really doesnt say you cant drink and you know getting drunk is dead wrong. People who dont want to give up drinking or want to start drinking I guess have you to thank. And I guess God will be pleased with you for leading them to the truth?
But please show me studies on you wrote on important things. Like I am sure you had a follow up study on people with drinking problems using the Word for delivernce over alcohol demons.
BTW, I know tone is lost in email so dont take anything I type as anger or sarcasm. Lol, just to have a little fun with this, can you see Jesus handing out E-cigs, swimsuit magazines, R rated movies since they also all lead to sin? lol
so I have no desire to read your essay because I am sure you make it clear getting drunk is wrong and sinful. we both agree the bible doesnt say you cant drink as long as you dont get buzzed or drunk and scripture talks about wine and people prove or disprove it’s alcoholic wine. again, who really cares other than people who want to be a Christian that drinks.
So not sure what you are trying to convince me of other maybe the wine Jesus turned from water was alcoholic and therefore was telling everyone it’s ok to drink as long as they dont get drunk. I honesty dont care whay the answer to that is because he shed his blood to defeat alcoholism and all addictions. He was offered alcohol and drugs while on the cross but refused so he can be in his right mind and be sure his will was not being overpowered by substance.
Different topic, when people call you a bigot or hater for being against homosexuality, how to you defend yourself, God, and the Bible? I simply say it’s just another sin. Not worse than others but God’s word doesnt change just because society has. Society cant bully God into want they want. I still get hated but Christ said we will get hated for his sake. How do you handle it?
“But if I let my flesh start to take over and want to dabble in porn, or flirting with women (or men) or whatever, I will be sure to contact you and find truth in the Bible.”
Wow. You do realize that slander is breaking the 9th commandment, right?
The rest of your ignorant rant is part and parcel of your wicked slander, and your refusal to let the Scriptures actually mean what they say and teach as a whole, and not as a bunch of isolated verses.
And as far as your second response goes, it actually sounds as if you were drunk when you wrote it. The first paragraph is incoherent.
Sadly, the very same sort of reasoning that you use for not reading my essay concerning this issue, is the same kind of reasoning (or lack thereof) that those who promote the notion that homosexuality is okay.
And it appears that you’re in the “all sin is the same” crowd. I’m not. While it’s true that every sin deserves God’s wrath and curse, it’s also true that some sins in themselves, and by reason of several aggravations, are more heinous in the sight of God than others.
I’d go on, but why waste my time? You’ve already proven that you don’t care about what’s really true, just whatever is convenient to your own scruples.
so we’ll agree to disagree. not sure what truth you are trying to push or think im letting myself being blind to. Jesus served alcholoic wine? Really dont care to know because I dont want to drink. So what if your essay convinces me it was alcoholic wine Jesus was serving? Why would that then matter to me? Will you then try to get me to drink? Probably not but again, who cares?
So as I take a drink of my latte, have a cold one on me, and Jesus.
” Jesus served alcholoic wine? Really dont care to know because I dont want to drink. So what if your essay convinces me it was alcoholic wine Jesus was serving? Why would that then matter to me?”
And there it is, folks. See it doesn’t matter what Jesus did, because Aaron doesn’t find any pleasure in it, nor in knowing it. Why would it matter to you?
Truth matters, regardless of whether you find it to be personally satisfactory or not.
I guess things like Christ’s deity aren’t really all that important either, since there are Arians who claim to believe on Christ as their saviour, and don’t need for Him to be God to do it …. nor does it matter that God is actually sovereign over His own creation and has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, because there are these weak-minded, self-elevating Christians called Arminians who find no pleasure in thinking about the necessity of sovereign grace in salvation … and the list goes on and on, with people professing faith in Christ, who don’t see the value in believing that which is inconvenient to their own sensibilities.
I’m not trying to convince you to DO anything other than to consider the whole counsel of the Scriptures. Even in the end, I don’t WANT you to drink. It would be sinful for you to do so, as your conscience doesn’t allow it. But I DO want you, as a fellow Christian, to think rightly about God.
So I’ve really nothing more to say to you unless and until you read the essay. That is, unless you bring some more (unrepentant) slander against me.
Come on man, slander? I know this Christian alcohol thingnis your thing, uour passion, maybe you think it’s your calling, but we are on an obscure website and not in the national media. So I am not slandering you. Most people here disagree with you anyways so there really is no slander.
You talk of truth. The Holy Spirit leads and guides in all truth. The Holy Spirit lead and guided me many years before drinking age (I am sure you believe Christian young people are sinning if casually drink as you say Christ did or let people- befoee the young Christians reach 21….
100s of people in my church and other Penecostals are like my wife and God took all desire and addiction to drink after getting saved. So that is the Holy Spirit leading me and guiding me in all truth. That and the scriptures I already quoted. So that is why I have no desire to hunt for scriptures that make it ok to casually drink. The truth for me is God doesnt want me to. For me, convincing myself its ok to have a beer, glass of wine, or spirit-as you do, would be me going against God. That is why I really dont care if you and others are lead by rhe Holy Spirit to the truth that Jesus handed out alcohol to sinners or religious people. Me not believing God bartended doesnt mean I dont think rightly about God. God saves and delivers from sin. he holds the keys to death and hell and the kingdom of God (apparently with a beer in his other hand, lol (whoops is that slander, lol?)
So again, what else about God are you passionate about and write essays and defend? This alcohol thing really cant be it.