Preface:
Christ Figure: A literary technique or discovery that a person, whether they exist in reality or in fiction, parallels Christ in some way. The person or character might display one or more of the following actions: performance of miracles, manifestation of divine qualities, healing others, displaying kindness and forgiveness, fighting for justice, being guided by the Spirit, and in their own suffering, rejection, death, and/or resurrection. Christ figures are often martyrs, sacrificing themselves for larger causes. William Wallace, due to his cause, torture, and death for his country, is an example of an historical person who has been called a Christ Figure. Superman, due to his being an only son sent by his father to save the world, is an example of a character who is often thought of as a Christ Figure.
I don’t want to talk about politics publicly. It’s not because I don’t have deep-seated political views or that I don’t like it. And it is not something that I think I have no responsibility in. I do. You do too if you live here in America or some other place where your voice matters. However, I have been called to something very particular and too much revealed passion in this area can damage the opportunities that God has put before me. This is why this is only my second or third political post in nearly 15 years of writing well over two-thousand posts. However, this may, nevertheless, cause damage that I don’t like.
I have already revealed (one time) on social media that I am voting for Trump and I feel a responsibility to write about this only because of a certain well-respected theologian’s remarks about him. For many of you it is no surprise that I’m voting for Trump. As well, many of you expect that I am voting for him and it would come as a surprise if I didn’t! Others of you will be upset and angered by this and may quit following me, supporting the ministry, or using our products. I don’t want this, but I realize I am not going to make everyone happy, even many of those that I care about such as yourself.
With that said, I want to briefly make my case to why I do and will support Trump and disagree a respected theologian..
What You Do Matters Much More Than What You Say
I was somewhat taken aback by John Piper’s revelation that He is not voting because he does not want to “determine which path of destruction [he] will support” (I think that was his conclusion). He believes Donald Trump’s character is just as damaging to this country as Biden’s support of abortion. Here is some of his reasoning:
I remain baffled that so many Christians consider the sins of unrepentant sexual immorality (porneia), unrepentant boastfulness (alazoneia), unrepentant vulgarity (aischrologia), unrepentant factiousness (dichostasiai), and the like, to be only toxic for our nation, while policies that endorse baby-killing, sex-switching, freedom-limiting, and socialistic overreach are viewed as deadly.
John Piper
I have been in the theological world long enough to know that you either learn to understand that those who believe differently than you have valid reasons for believing the way they do or you harden all your categories and are content with a small circle of fellowship. I try to take the path of understanding. So, I do understand where Piper (a very gracious theologian) is coming from. And he may be right, I just don’t agree with him.
First, even if I conceded the destructiveness of Trump’s character, I don’t think we can easily judge a person’s except by what they do. What they say is much less important. I think this passage is perfect for this:
Matthew 21:28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 21:29 The boy answered, ‘I will not.’ But later he had a change of heart and went. 21:30 The father went to the other son and said the same thing. This boy answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but did not go. 21:31 Which of the two did his father’s will?” They said, “The first.”
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Jesus conceded this answer.
Jesus says here that what you do matters much more than what you say. In this case, the first son had good character. Why did he say what he said and tell his father he was not going to work in the vineyard? We are not told. I can only imagine that he was like a lot of us, expressing his true desires. He really didn’t want to work! I can understand that. Then he felt bad and went because he knew it was right. But the second son only wanted his father to think he had good character by saying the right things in a respectful way. But it is his action that mattered here.
Like it or not, Trump is a doer. He does and thinks what he says. I have been so irritated by politics since birth. I have no idea who they truly are because they play politics. I have no idea who they truly are just by what they verbally express. They say one thing and do another. Trumps introduction of relentless action on so many matters causes many of us to be refreshed in a way we did not think was going to happen in our lifetime. We like the way Trump has shaken Washington up. And it is our hope that his election causes both parties to reflect on this question: “Why do so many people like Donald Trump so much?” Then they may see the entire polluted character of today’s politics as unnecessary and counter-productive. Christ uses this parable to warn all the self-righteous hypocrites about saying one thing and doing another.
What you say is not the issue. It is what you do. Trump may say some things that Piper and others do not like, but his actions may be betraying his words about his character, just like the first son.
Burning Down the House
People who shake things up are necessary. I wish we had one in the media and in Hollywood, but we do have one in politics. This is someone who does things differently, someone who does not follow the status quo of a system tempered by a gavel of half-truths and corruption, someone who has a personality that is aggressive and forthright.
People hate Trump for his personality just as they hated Christ. I am not saying that Trump is a Christ-figure or even a Christian. I don’t know if he is either of the two. But if you define a Christ figure as “a character who possesses qualities or experiences events similar to those of Jesus Christ,” then I argue that he is. Let me explain.
Trump is progressing through Washington like Christ progressed through Jerusalem. He is breaking a mold and no one likes it. Why would they? No one really likes change. Politicians are uncomfortable with how the money-changing is done. They like the stability as it seems to create patterns for them to follow. They like their robes, their tassels, and getting their feet washed by business owners. They like Jerusalem the way it is. Trump is truly burning down the house and I am glad.
Piper seems to be scared Trump is destroying our country by being divisive. He says this:
This is true not only because [Trump’s] flagrant boastfulness, vulgarity, immorality, and factiousness are self-incriminating, but also because they are nation-corrupting. They move out from centers of influence to infect whole cultures. The last five years bear vivid witness to this infection at almost every level of society.
John Piper
This is a laundry list of claims that, as I mention later, Piper does not back up. He calls Trump “factious.” It simply means dissent, schism, or faction. Does Piper think the kind of change we need can come without turbulence? What does Piper say about William Wilberforce and the abolition of slavery in England? What does he say about Martin Luther’s rash and dissident personality at the Reformation? Were they factious too? What about Christ? Does he think that the Temple can be rebuilt without first destroying it? I don’t know.
Past Sins and Present Accusations
Piper brings up Trumps past sins. There are three problems with this:
1. He brings up his past sins to make present allegations. How could someone like Piper do this? I’m sorry, I love Piper and I learn so much from him, but I think he is heading in a wrong direction here. If Trump is a Christian, as he says he is, these sins are covered. Only Satan brings up our past to vilify our present. Not only this, but even if Trump is not a Christian, we should be very carful in defining anyone by past sins such as these. Everyone can change.
Piper continually talked about the destructiveness of Trump’s character, but he gave no past quotes or illustrations, much less current ones. It was stated as if it was a fact. That is why I think this next point is necessary.
2. Piper and many others seem to believe the media. Trump has been called every name in the book from a xenophobe to a racist. But if I take away everything the media has said, and go off only what I have seen and heard from Trump, I can’t find it. I really can’t. With just about everything, I find the opposite in his word and actions. I’m not saying that Trump is not sometimes harsh, divisive , degrading, and too quick to accept and pronounce accusations that help his agenda, I just can’t let the media create my view. Maybe Piper has seen Trump be divisive by being racist or a hater of other countries, but I think I have all the intel that Piper has (unless he and Trump are close acquaintances!) and I don’t see it.
3. Who doesn’t have indiscretions? The things he is accused of saying and doing that desecrate his character are, indeed, improper. But how many of us don’t have a sordid past (and, many times, present) such as this. We just don’t have a paparazzi of media trailing us and putting on tape all our indiscretions. I could not imagine having on tape or video the things I have said and done done, even as a Christian. They would trump Trump’s indiscretions all day long. He is a lightweight if all he has is what the media has reported. And most of you have things in your past (and present) also, right? Maybe Piper doesn’t.
“Trump is Mean and Does Not Have Christian Character”
I don’t like the way Trump treats his enemies. I would love him to be kinder, more sympathetic, and more balanced in his treatment of their positions. I cringe when he calls people liars, idiots, stupid, and thugs.” With hesitation and trepidation I gaze at my phone as it sends a message that he has tweeted. But I hate to say this, I have also thought these things about what Christ said, so I don’t really know how to think about this! Did he just call those leaders “white-washed tombs” (Matthew 23:27)? Did he just say the greatest man who ever walked the earth (besides him) was a guy calling leaders and scholars a “brood of vipers” (Matthew 11:11)? Did Jesus not call them a brood of vipers himself? (Matthew 12:34)? He did. And here are a few other things Jesus has tweeted that will jolt many of you?
- “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.” –Matthew 10:34
- “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred?” –Matthew 23:16-17
- And the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.” –Luke 11:39
- “And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” –Matthew 25:30
- “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.” –Mark 9:42
- “But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.” –John 8:55
- “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness.” –Matthew 23:27
- “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” –John 8:44
- “You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me.” 9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’” –Matthew 15:7
- “But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.” –Luke 19:27“
- Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.” –Matthew 7:6
- “Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.” –Luke 12:51
- “And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” –Matthew 24:51
- “Woe to those who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep.” –Luke 6:25
- “…but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” –Luke 13:3,5
- “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” –Matthew 25:41
This is hard to hear. There are many more, and you don’t want to look at the Old Testament and the Apostles. When the situation called for it, as long as they were in authority, they would often express themselves in cringeworthy ways!
I don’t really follow this path of most resistance myself. For one, I don’t have the authority that Christ had and I am not anyone’s elected leader. And for another, it is not my personality. But if you are God or the President of the United States, maybe, just maybe, you must talk this way to bring about change. Trump was elected to change things. Christ was killed for it. Christ had the mandate of God (being God himself) and Trump has the mandate of the American people.
Can you imagine what the Jerusalem Times was saying about Christ? Can you imagine the villain they created out of him on the Israeli Facebook and Twitter? Can you imagine the memes unbelievers would have of him? It’s this simple: people believed the media. “Christ is destroying Jerusalem and we must kill him.” The pressure was so intense that Nicodemus, a Pharisee and supporter of Christ, had to come to Christ at night because he did not want anyone to know he believed in him. Sound familiar? It is the same thing Chris Pratt will be doing when he sneaks out of Hollywood, at night, to go vote. He will have to do it in secret so that no one catches wind and crucifies him in the media. It was the same in Christ’s day. Most people caved to the political pressure of the day. That is why he was crucified by the Jewish leaders and a fearful Pilate. I feel as if Piper has done the same.
Is it possible the following is happening with Trump:
Mark 14:55 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death, but they did not find anything. 56 Many gave false testimony against him, but their testimony did not agree. 57 Some stood up and gave this false testimony against him:58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with hands and in three days build another not made with hands.’” 59 Yet even on this point their testimony did not agree.
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Sound familiar? It does happen. Look at what you have heard him say and do. Is it conceivable the media is giving false testimony?
Conclusion
I am not too divergent in my politics (maybe a bit more libertarian than some), but I believe that most conservative policies are correct when it comes to upholding our constitution. And I believe in our constitution. With that said, I am still a one-issue voter and I have no problems confessing this. The issue of abortion is paramount. If you just switched the two candidates beliefs about this one thing, I would support Biden rather than Trump. Let me go further . . . I would support Bernie Sanders over Trump. I believe the president can do something about abortion. It is already progressing faster than it ever has since 1973. Piper believes that Trumps attitude is destroying the country while witnessing first-hand life literally being given the the most helpless by Trump’s appointments and support.
I love John Piper dearly. I don’t know him and don’t remember meeting him (though I may be wrong). And I am sad that the only thing I have written about him is this. I just don’t believe what he said in his post is true or responsible for a critical thinker and felt the need to respond. I believe we are in a time of political transition and things will always get messy when change is introduced.
I will continue to take note of my own imperfections and listen to and consider what those of you who disagree with me say. If this has done nothing to convince you to vote for Trump, that is okay. I don’t even know if that was my goal. Nevertheless, we can all agree that God is on the throne no matter who is the president and he will always accomplish his will. Therefore, I will not panic no matter who is elected. I will rejoice at His will being accomplished.
147 replies to "Could Trump Be A Christ-Figure? A Response to John Piper About Trump"
[…] Could Trump Be A Christ-Figure: A Response to John Piper About Trump (C. Michael Patton, Credo House): “I don’t know if Trump is who the media says he is, I can only go off what I hear him say and see him do. Take away the accusations of xenophobia, racism, and misogyny and what do you have? An alleged sordid past with women (me too) and a present of enacting the policies I agree with.” The title is so provocative and I almost didn’t read it, but I found it genuinely interesting. The title is over-the-top, though. […]
Superb Analysis Mike. Appreciate you penning your thoughts and winsome rebuttal of great pastor John Piper’s thoughts on the 2020 election.
My goodness, it has been such a long time since I have heard from you. How are you!
Hi Michael,
Thanks for remembering me. It’s been quite some time since the Parchment and Pen days. I really enjoyed interacting on that blog. I remember fondly your stories about the Avengers, your time with Chuck Swindoll, your story about your dad and his Fire Insurance on the wall, your deep felt pain over your sister (was it Angie?), the frequent contributions by pastor bchodge and myself on the issue of the Authority of Scripture on the presenting issue of Egalitarianism, and so on, and so forth. It was the heyday of Christian blogging.
I don’t peruse blogs as much, but I happened to see this one.
I’m very fond of John Piper (Desiring God was a terrific read) and I’ve read several things penned together with his close friend seminary professor Dr. Wayne Grudem.
In fact, Dr. Grudem wrote an excellent article about why he supports President Trump here:
https://stream.org/letter-to-an-anti-trump-christian-friend/
I have wondered whether the anonymous friend that Dr. Grudem is writing to is, in fact, John Piper, lol.
Anyways, I met someone who knows you in real life. His name is pastor Scott Rodgers. Does he ring a bell?
Keep up the great ministry work, Michael!
Michael,
There certainly are a lot of detractors to Trump, and you knew that there would be Christians disappointed in you and the millions of other Christians that do support Trump.
I believe, as you do as well, in God’s Great Grace and Tender Mercies. Here is a story that I just read today about President Donald J. Trump identifying as a nondenominational Christian rather than as a Presbyterian:
https://religionnews.com/2020/10/23/exclusive-trump-confirmed-a-presbyterian-now-identifies-as-non-denominational-christian/
Christians should extend grace for the lost sheep that Jesus rescued while leaving the other 99.
Comparing Trump to Christ is way out of line. Yes, Christ used harsh words against the Pharisees, but He never lied, He never committed adultery, never told dirty jokes, etc…
While I understand people voting for Republican for their platform, but to say Trump is a Christ figure?
Are you nut?
You have to see what a Christ Figure is. It is not that uncommon to call people such, even when they are not a Christian. I created a preface that might help.
Exactly. The man of the house is a Christ figure to his wife and kids. A pastor (who is supposed to always be a male) is the Christ figure to his congregation.
You must have forgotten the first part where, if trump was redeemed by Christ then his sins were and are washed away by the blood of Christ. Do you not believe in this? Were your sins cleansed by Christ when you accepted Him? Do not dwell on a persons past when Christ has already forgiven them. Do we all suddenly become perfect once we are believers? No we all continue to sin in some ways. Even you are without sin. Do you harbor hate? Thats sinful too.
The words Christ or Messiah are not exclusive to Jesus of the Bible. Which is why I think Michael gave the preface he did. Here is one definition: ‘The Hebrew word “Mashiach,” meaning Messiah, means “the one anointed with oil.” The custom of anointing with oil is a ritual act designed to elevate those designated for priestly, royal or sometimes even prophetic roles (such as the prophet Elisha).’ (https://mfa.gov.il/MFA/IsraelExperience/Religion/Pages/Image_of_Messiah_in_Judaism_and_Christianity.aspx).
While I too don’t draw a parallel of the characters of Jesus and Trump, I do see a parallel of Cyrus and Trump. I also see Trump as performing and having performed a prophetic role. He, like Cyrus, recognized Israel’s right to Jerusalem. God’s anointed or appointed leaders aren’t always people of great character. In fact many have very shady pasts. However, God does use them and in fact he appoints them. I believe what Paul writes in Romans 13:1 “…for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God” (NIV).
Christ and Messiah are titles. When combined with Jesus the son of God, it identifies Jesus as THE Messiah who was foretold in the Old Testament . But many can and have been considered Messiah’s and not equated with being Jesus Christ. So for this reason I don’t think it is out of line at all.
Thanks for posting. I heard about Piper’s comments but haven’t heard them yet.
I am beyond weary of the foolishness in the Church over Trump. America is a Gentile nation and does not belong to the Church. God’s man is always in the White House, whether for blessing or for judgment.
Daniel 2:21, I Tim. 2
There’s no evidence Trump’s a believer, but as someone has remarked, the election is not like sending a valentine to someone you love, it’s about what’s best for our country.
We must keep our priorities in order: spiritual first, civic duty second.
Believers must vote conscience, even if it means not voting.
But it’s not possible for a true believer to vote for the Infanticide party.
The Left is godless, anti-God, and supporting infanticide, corruption of the family, and special rights for sexual perversion…among other things.
Maranatha!
Duane, you summed it up concisely and truthfully. Thank you
Excellent! I, too, had thought of Jesus’ parable about the two sons and which one was truly the obedient and faithful one. Actions do speak much louder than words. Thank you for writing this!
Michael. I think your reply is excellent and balanced. I love Piper as well, but he makes great boasts of how he does not own a television, and that makes me question his sources of information. Over the years, I, who am very politically engaged, can tell that Piper is not listening to the news or watching Trump by some of the uninformed comments he has made. He is obviously getting scant reports, probably using information gathered from others to inform himself, and in a word, he is simply wrong. Piper has demonstrated in the past by his comments that he is ignorant of what is happening politically. However he does get his news, it is clearly from an unreliable source. If he were more engaged he would realize that there are two very different streams of information out there and he is getting his from the wrong one. One of the things we should all be thankful for is Trumps ability to expose what has come to be known as “Fake News.” Piper is out of bounds to claim that Trump is unrepentant as you mentioned. Must Trump make his repentance known to John Piper in order to satisfy the angels in heaven and be worthy of Piper’s vote? Piper seems to think that a vote for a candidate is some sort of favor or full endorsement of his entire life. In things that I have read, Trump HAS repented of his past. Perhaps he is a baby Christian and he has not fully matured. (have any of us reached full sanctification?) Neither I, nor Donald Trump, nor John Piper have. This is not for me to ultimately judge anyway. Again, I love Piper and I too continue to learn from him, but I do so by listening to him directly and not through second hand information about him. He should learn to do the same. I don’t blame Piper for not owning a television, but he should know at the same time that he is very limited in what he learns by not owning one and should take that into account when making comments such as those you addressed.
Very good comment.
Neil, your whole response to Piper is based on the assumption that people must own a television in order to view footage of Trump’s speeches. Does not the computer you typed on, connected to the internet, enable you to do the same thing, at any time of the day????
One does not need a television in order to be informed.
No. My argument went way beyond television ownership. You should read my whole post. My point is that he is quite proud that he does not own one and that leads me to conclude or at least infer that Piper stays away from the daily junk we are fed via all forms of media. He is smarter than that. He wouldn’t put down tv only when he knows that we get our information from all sorts of places beyond tv. Piper is not a fan of other media platforms either. I believe he uses Twitter. But he has also acknowledged that social media is also full of junk. I know he is active on social media, but what has that proven to be, but an arm of the Democrat Party!
Although I agree with the op ed, … might not Piper own a radio?
You question Piper’s sources because he does not own a television, and I question the views, rather, info people have because they depend on television. I also don’t own a television and haven’t since 1996. My first thought, and many thoughts on the articles that Piper writes about events, is that he needs to lay off the TV. Apparently that isn’t the case and he is using second hand, third hand info from others. The best source today, after the advent of podcasts, for truthful news with the added benefit of detail is through these podcasts. One can categorize each area via podcasts. Piper lacks info on many subjects not related to theology because of his dependence on third parties. He also emotionalises to much, not only in his sermons, but in his views.
Good information and comments!
Thank you so much! I needed this. I was disappointed and found myself not being in agreement with Piper’s post. My daughter had sent it to me as in “see?”. But I just didn’t “see”. Now I “see” through this post which I’m in agreement with.
Thank you, Michael. That was courageous. I agree with you, except I think that democrats are wrong about many more things, not just their support of abortion. I’m interested in how the “Stage of Truth” looks in the post-post-modern world we are in today.
Love it! Me too! It is changing at a rapid rate.
Becky, you bring up an important point that I failed to mention in my initial post….Abortion. What is mind-blowing to me on the Piper issue is that he, (as all Christians should be) is 100% pro-life. So is Trump. And this issue is one of the most, if not the most important one in this coming election. Piper is saying (maybe not intentionally) in his article that he would rather see Trump lose and allow the abortion industry to kick into high gear…which it WILL DO under a Biden administration, than to hold his nose, vote for the man who is so horribly compromised in his view and see to it that Trump continues on his path to making abortion more and more difficult to happen…and maybe even end in large part. Again, if he is not a tv owner but is so informed as others have implied in this conversation, then how has Piper missed the last two…and it looks like a third PRO-LIFE Supreme Court nominee? No Christian should excuse bad behavior and we should hold those who aspire to higher office to a high standard, but to throw the baby out with the bathwater on such a crucial issue as life is just pure blind ignorance on Piper’s part.
Neil, yet another excellent, well-thought out review of yours; thank you brother.
Thank you for your willingness to write this. I would make some other arguments in addition to what you have written. I was disappointed in Piper’s statements as well, even though I usually agree.
I don’t think our focus should be on the personality of the leader as much as what they stand for and what they plan to accomplish. The difference between the two main candidates creates a stark contrast that Christians need to consider. If for no other reason, our primary concern should be which candidate will allow us the freedom to continue to spread the gospel? The answer to that question is obvious.
This was a great read. I too was troubled by reading Padtor Piper’s article earlier this week. I respect his view, but I really disagreed with his arguments.
I am not a citizen of the USA,so have no vote in next month’s elections. However, I believe that the USA is very important on the world stage. I totally agree with what you have posted. Like you, I have a high regard for John Piper (and others!). However, I have discovered that there os no man whom I can follow 100%. Not even John Piper is infallible!
I also agree that the big subject is the murder, in their mothers’ wombs, of tens of thousands of children. Indeed, as I try to stay abreast of USA politics, I have concluded that the Democrat Party has an ingrained culture of death. I would add another big subject – Israel. the current POTUS has shown himself to be very pro-Israel. The Democrats are the polar opposite!
Your concluding comments are also spot-on. Almighty God is still on the throne. The nations may conspire, and the peoples plot; but “He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord has them in derision.” (Ps.2:4). On that fact, our hearts may be steady.
Blessings, and shalom.
Terrific article. Very thoughtful. I agree with most of your conclusions and sentiments.
I would add, Daniel 2:21 makes it very clear, it is God alone who establishes kings and deposes them. Voting is important, especially in a democracy, but God is Sovereign as it comes to the leadership of countries, not that we can totally understand His will at times; although we know that in the end, it is all for the glory of God.
There is no doubt the presidency of Trump was established by God, just as there is no doubt the presidency of Obama was established by God, however contradictory this may sound as these men and their ideologies couldn’t be more opposite . The election of these men are not capricious events which God did not have a hand in, and He will have a hand in this election.
If Trump’s only purpose as president, for one term, was for the establishment of Jerusalem as the recognized capital of the chosen people and to further global focus on God’s Holy City, then it was a smashing success. After decades of lying, deceitful politicians breaking and purposefully not enacting their commitments to placate the religious right, Trump will be eternally commended for doing what he said he would do in this regard. Yes, there is a lot of wood, hay and stubble in this man’s life (like us all), but this was an act of gold, silver and precious stones.
Abortion is a notable and admirable issue to be a one-issue voter. I too am a one-issue voter. My vote goes to those who are philosemitic. Those who understand, agree with and support the Abrahamic covenant. Those who support, without wavering, the nation of Israel and THE HOLY CITY, Jerusalem. Those who confess that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no man comes to the Father except through Christ. Trump has confessed his belief that this is true, Biden does not believe the same.
If Trump loses this election, it will be because he did the job he was called to do and then really fumbled the ball with his “deal of the century” which is an abomination and contradictory to the Abrahamic covenant. On the other hand, Biden is no friend of the Jew and the democrat party has become increasingly antisemitic.
It will be interesting to see the outcome. Rest assured, it is in God’s Hands. Let’s pray that we as evangelicals have as much fervor, and more so, in preaching the Word and making disciples until He comes as we have in our political process.
Well said!
Everyone has to stand before the Lord for what they have said and what they do – you have not changed any minds because at this point most of the country if they are voting know whom they are voting for. I did not vote for Trump and my conscience before the Lord is entirely clear. I am not taking sides with you nor Pastor Piper however I have to be able to stand before the Lord and my (not yours or anyone else’s) conscience has to be clear.
I totally understand and respect that. Thanks for commenting.
Excellent article. It is an excellent example of what I have been preaching (I am a Baptist preacher) for years, “intellectual honesty.” Too often, in critical thinking or analysis, we do not give the other side of the argument “credit when credit is due, condemnation when condemnation is due.”
Now, that being said, as you pointed out in that list of quotes of Jesus against His enemies, Jesus was being “intellectually honest.” Matthew 23 has Jesus complimenting (?) the “scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.” Whether or not that was their proper place or they assumed that position is another question altogether. But, Jesus did say that the people were to do as the “scribes and Pharisees” told them to do, BUT “not do as they do.” Jesus, then, pronounced “Seven Woes” on them. Thus, Jesus gave credit to His enemies, but also condemned them. If one were to look at the list of quotes above, one would then find that Jesus proceeded to give credit to the opposition, then roundly condemned them. Jesus did not play favorites. In fact, every time Jesus spoke, He offended someone. In most cases, it was the religious leaders.
The Scripture says, “Speaking the truth in love.” Sometimes that truth will be very harsh even when one is speaking the truth in love.
Overall, this is an excellent analysis and rebuttal to John Piper’s arrogant display of political stupidity. I have lost all respect for Piper. He is both theologically and politically confused. I pray no one pays his diatribe any mind.
Interesting how you care so much about the unborn while literally thousands and thousands of unbelievers are driven away from Christ because of the evangelicals’ support for Trump. Talk about loving strangers while immigrants and refugees are shunned by his administration. Loving and witnessing to the living is just as important as opposing abortion. Witnessing to the unbelieving world has become so much harder. If abortion is the single most important issue for you as the end to justify the means which corrupt the soul of a nation, then you are not a discerning Christian.
So we accommodate our views in order to bring someone to salvation. I will tell you what is driving MORE people away from the church, the doctrine of Hell. Do we accommodate this too?
You people still can’t use the word “illegal” in front of “immigrants” can you?
Trump upholds the law of the land concerning entry, including the extra restrictions placed on it by the 9th Circuit in the 2016 case of Flores v Lynch. That case was raised because under previous, more lax, interpretations of the law traffickers had been able to gain access to children under Obama.
Now it appears, with that more strict application, more than 500 children have been spared the depredations that result from such trafficking. Or are you one of those people who believes a Coyote is just an animal?
Thousands of unbelievers are not being driven away from Christ by evangelicals supporting Trump. That is simply an attempt at guilting people into accepting your claims uncritically.
We have seen the true face of the Democrat party over the last few months. BLM/Antifa have destroyed billion in property, and killed dozens. Aaron Danielson and Lee Kelter, Trump supporters murdered by Democrats.
Anyone who votes Democrat at this point can only be considered woefully ignorant, or hopelessly evil.
You’re ignorant and racist.rapped in your love of trump, his lies Willingfully ignorant in your fox news facts. Wake up! You can’t serve two masters and most of you people serve trump. You ignore the racism because if doesn’t affect you. You ignore the kids in cages. I could go on and on but what’s the use. You are wrapped in our love of trump, his lies, and racism.
Jason,
Just wondering if you are Christian?
If so, do you think that these immigrants are also “illegal aliens” in the kingdom of God simply because they are born in another country outside of US? In another word, are you a citizen in the kingdom of God because of where you are born?
Ask yourself, do you put God’s kingdom first or do you put the “US kingdom” first? Those laws that you are quoting, are they as important to you as God’s laws? which one comes first?
These immigrants are searching for a better life for themselves and their children, just as the Jews was in the desert coming out of Egypt. Would you not do the same if you are in their shoes? Why do you oppose them when the Lord says not to?
“The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”
Leviticus 19:34
I have seen many unbelievers being driven away on this point, and I can’t blame them for doing so. We all need to reflect why we place so much importance on our physical citizenship over our spiritual citizenship.
Well done! I also love the man, but Piper himself causes much “divisiveness” within the church because of his Extreme Calvinistic doctrine, Selah!
Good response Michael; thank you for making a clear one.
Heartbreaking!
Thank you for a true and balanced analysis. The parallels of media and Powers-that-be opposing Trump is compelling. In many ways and on many issues I agree with Piper. Here’s where he shows his limitation in arriving at a faulty conclusion. He should vote, he must vote for the candidate that best supports constitutional freedoms. He must not give himself a pass on citizenship’s responsibility to the Republic or to the Kingdom.
Really what, to use a good old Southern expression, Knows how “to cut the mustard,” or how to “shuck corn.”
You say in one place that we can’t use his past against him, but then we can only judge a person by what he does and not what he says?
First of all, you can’t have it both ways. We either judge him by what he’s done or we don’t.
Anyone can say they’re a Christian. We judge a person by their fruit. There is nothing in his life to indicate that he has had any kind of conversion, quite the opposite in fact.
I find it hard to believe that people can’t find any evidence that he’s a horrible person aside from believing a mainstream media narrative. He has been accused of sexual assault by at least twenty five women since the 1970s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct_allegations
His racist business actions since the 1970s are also well documented. He’s also set up fraudulent businesses such as Trump University. These aren’t media fabrications nor the actions of a decent man.
I also reject the notion that what he says is somehow unimportant. I’ve read somewhere that out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.
Unless you want to believe that everything the “media” has reported has been fabricated from thin air, his racist and other bigoted views against essentially anybody who isn’t him are well documented. What kind of person says what he has about John McCain? He’s more than just a jerk. He’s a malignant narcissist who will question the integrity of an election process and threaten the stability of a nation to benefit himself with no remorse.
“There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.”
Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV
This describes Donald Trump to a T. No man or woman of God needs to or should vouch for him. He’s an antichrist and a false savior.
I understand if people feel the need to vote for him as the lesser of two evils, but he’s not worthy of the kind of defense you offer.
I respect this a great deal and thank you for committing. I will continue to consider what you say.
Fake piety! Just like Pence. Meanwhile turning a blind eye to what trump is doing to America. White evangelicals wrap themselves in the cloak of “we are better than them because we are against abortion”. But you’re okay with racism. You’re okay with kids in cages. You’re okay with the trumps ugly rhetoric. You’re okay with over 200,000 dead because trump lied.
Amen to that!
AMEN and HALLELUJAH, Judy!!!
How anyone, much less a professing Christ-follower and minister, could have the temerity even to *joke* about Donald Trump being a “Christ figure” defies all logic and comprehension. This is quite possibly (in all sincerity) the most blasphemous thing I’ve read/heard in my lifetime. It was bad enough to hear some misguided, overzealous Republicans liken Trump to King David (?!), but it is eternally and infinitely worst to suggest that a profane, pagan, dishonest, self-serving quintessential playboy and textbook egomaniac who boasts about literally everything, including grabbing women by their genitalia, in ANY way or by any stretch of the imagination resembles even remotely the absolutely righteous, sinless, sovereign Savior and Lord of all creation!!! God have mercy on His Church and this godless nation. I plead with you sincerely to repent, Mr. Patton, and either delete this article or, at the very least, change the egregiously blasphemous title.
FYI, I am very proud of Dr. John Piper for writing the article you attempted to rebut. I’ve been praying and waiting since 2016 for a highly respected Christian leader to have the courage (WHY is this even needed??) to speak the biblical truth about Trump while ALSO condemning the evils of the sin-promoting Democrat Party (although I wish he had done so more directly and more strongly in the closing paragraphs). In their blind loyalty to a political party, Christian leaders, relatives, and friends whom I love and respect(ed) have either ignored, downplayed, or—in the worst-case scenario—*defended* the sinful words and actions of Donald Trump over the last four years as if pride, boastfulness, lying, vulgarity, reviling, etc. are no big deal, and it’s been grievous and distressing to witness. Thus, I praise our holy GOD for leading John Piper to remind the wayward American Church what the Scriptures clearly teach about these very serious sins (i.e., so serious that they have the power to destroy souls for eternity and keep people out of the kingdom of God) and for calling the church to repentance.
The world doesn’t need another savior, folks; that job has already been filled by the One who rules the universe from heaven and who turns the hearts of “kings” wherever He wills. Spiritual awakening and biblical revival/reformation are the *only* real hope for this nation and the world, NOT politics. May all Christians be united in praying earnestly and frequently for both.
Jeremy. I don’t think you know what a Christ Figure is. If you research it, maybe your problem with the post will be alleviated. I actually made a preface that explained. When Obama was in office there were questions of whether he was a Christ Figure. Anyway, I am sorry I disturbed with this.
As well, it sounds like you really believe the media and feel as if a President shouldn’t have indiscretions?
I appreciate your comment and wish you well. I only have time to check this blog comments on the first day and occasionally after. You are a rockstar my friend. Hope you do well.
Judy, why are you repeating slander from the mainstream media as though it was a fact.
Trump has not engaged, at any point, in racist behaviour. For all his many faults racism is not one of them.
The claim that, in the 1970s, his father’s firm engaged in some discriminatory rental practice in a fraction of the 14 thousand apartments that they owned had nothing to do with Donald Trump.
http://www.newstandardpress.com/did-trump-not-rent-to-black-people/
On the contrary, Donald Trump has been very supportive of the Black community. In the 1980s he supported Jesse Jackson for President, and let the NAACP use Trump properties free of charge when they could no longer meet New York rents.
In the 90s he argued for the opening of Palm Beach clubs to Black and Jewish people, leading by example with Mar-a-Lago.
http://www.newstandardpress.com/the-donald-and-the-blacks/
In 2012 Donald Trump supported John McCain in his presidential bid, and McCain lost. When McCain attempted to drag Donald Trump onstage, Trump called him a loser, because he was. Trump always treats people the way they treat him.
If you haven’t been keeping abreast of the real story, and it’s apparent that you haven’t, yes, most of the accusations against Trump in the mainstream media are fabricated, either from completely misrepresenting something Trump actually said, or simply making it up, like the libelous efforts of the Atlantic.
Two decades ago Trump, in the process of telling a self-deprecating story about how he struck out with a woman, assured a young celebrity that there would be groupies who’d “let you do anything”, and now that gets regurgitated free of context at every opportunity. It’s been nearly 20 years. Get over it.
Meanwhile Biden was credibly accused by Tara Reid of doing exactly that, and you give him a free pass.
That was a good source argument. I’m keeping it!
Jason, that is…truly astonishing. You have drunk the Kool-Aid. Might want to see a doctor.
Trump’s comments were made when he was almost *60 years old* (15 years ago, not 20). How many people have you ever known in your life who’ve said things like “Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.”? And “Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.” I’m going to guess…not many. Tell me…what context are we missing? Also, it’s a fact that he’s been accused of sexual misconduct by 26 women, many of whom did so before he was a presidential candidate. I bet you’ve got some great excuses for that. The Michael Cohen payoffs…nothing to see there, right? Cheating on his first wife with his future second wife in a public manner, then divorcing her for a former nude model. No problemo. Fine christian character in action.
re: McCain, you’re the one leaving out key info:
“After Trump recalled McCain saying something that Trump considered an insult to him and his supporters, “I said, ‘Somebody should run against McCain,’ who has been, in my opinion, not so hot. And I supported him for president! I raised a million dollars for him. That’s a lot of money! I supported him. He lost. He let us down. But he lost. So I never liked him much after that, because I don’t like losers.”
Amid audience laughter, the moderator, Republican pollster Frank Luntz, then interjected, “But he’s a war hero!”
***Trump responded, “He’s not a war hero. He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren’t captured.”***
Later that day, Trump retweeted, with seeming approval, a web post headlined “Donald Trump: John McCain Is ‘A Loser,’” that recapped his exchange at the summit.””
Yes Judy. All of this and more!
Jesus Christ could say harsh truths without an iota of hypocrisy. Not the case with Trump. As for abortion, do you really think Trump can turn this nation away from this horrible sin? He cannot, and you must know that. If we who are Christian had fulfilled our mission to be salt and light in this nation, advancing Christ’s Kingdom among us, being disciples and making disciples, we would not be calling on our political leaders to wipe away this awful practice or to take away the demand for it.
Yes, I do. Look at what has already occurred. He will have appointed three justices to the SCOUS and many states have had the courage because of this to ban much abortion. If he wins again, I think abortion will be gone in the next decade. If Hilary Clinton was elected, just think of the position we would be in. How am I wrong?
I’m not sure he can stop it, but he can hold its advance and as you say he has perhaps made progress in turning the tide by degrees at least.
To Kathy, should we who were unable to influence Roe v. Wade etc – who have inherited the legacy left to us by an uncourageous (un-salt, un-light) Christian community simply accept the evil as status quo and failure of bygone Christians? Should we abdicate? Or should we, as much as it depends upon us do whatsoever we can, in the prayer closet and at the ballot box, to rectify the horrors of the current situation?
Planned Parenthood has received increased federal funding since 2015. Trump’s presidency has not been able to slow that tide in the least. Whether or not they are trying, the point is that it hasn’t worked. SCOTUS nominees may help. Although Gorsuch and Kavanaugh have both demonstrated in a short time that their decisions are not clearly on the conservative end. Note the Louisiana funding decision. If “actions” matter more than words as you say (which I find is a rather biblically specious claim given the overwhelming emphasis on the tongue, words, lips, etc…) then the actions of the two new justices have lacked and the ability to stop funding to PP has demonstrated a lack of results.
Dear Michael,
You and John Piper have both significantly contributed to my spiritual growth and I thank God for both of you!
I read Dr. Piper’s article a few days ago and it shook me up. I’ve been thinking about it ever since.
His article challenged my thinking to a degree, but I feel it confused me more than challenged me — confused me more than it informed or instructed me. I feel like I need clarification on his points. Like you, I came away wondering how much his views were influenced by the mainstream media and not by facts.
If I am understanding what he says in that article correctly I find myself wondering how we could ever have the comfort to vote in any election. I am not aware of any candidate in any election that was entirely free of the charges that Dr. Piper levels at the current candidates.
I write to you today to thank you for writing your article. It has helped me weed through some of the confusion Dr. Piper’s article created. I will be sharing your article with others. I wish the best to you and to Dr. Piper and I am thankful for the men of God that you both are.
When this election is over a sinner will be at the helm of our nation– but you, Dr. Piper, and I all agree that over that elected sinner will reign a holy, righteous, and sovereign God. What a blessing, what a cause for celebration!
You are welcome. Love your last paragraph.
This is beautiful.
I had the same confusion over Piper’s opinion & was relieved to read this post clarifying the other side of conscience. Im convinced that 4 years of evil & slander have hidden the miraculous window God gave His children to preach the gospel & produce fruit.
I join you in celebration.
Worthy is the Lamb!
You don’t need to apologize for disagreeing with Piper. He just a man.
Brother, you have a right to vote for anybody you choose. However, I observed a few things you wrote about Piper that warrants a comment. You ask hypothetical questions about what Piper would say about Wilberforce, Luther, and the Temple. You question Piper’s views as similar to Christ’s accusers at his trial. Those are straw men arguments (ad hominem too) used to question and dismiss the substance of his views and his orthodoxy. Really? Let’s compare. Piper, from the sweat of his brow, edited or wrote several exegetically sound books defending the classical Reformed view of Justification (Variegated Nomism, Future of Justification, Justification of God). You have provided a much user friendly platform to study Theology. Thank you for that, but the gulf between you two is far and wide.
Joel, thank you so much for your kind comments. Definitely, we can disagree and I am ready to change my mind. While I am passionate this, I don’t hold this too closely to the center of my beliefs, so it is easier to change. Please tell me how they are straw men and ad hom? I can’t think of what you may mean.
I too would like to understand Joel’s remarks better.
For what it’s worth, I didn’t think you were hard on Dr. Piper in this post, and I thought your comments regarding bygone Christian leaders were valid. In general, Michael, I have learned a great deal about how to be Irenic from you and Roman in the Theology Program and I’ve always appreciated the way you present yourself. This article and the reply to Joel M. are no exceptions.
Thanks. And Joel, I would like to hear your comments as well.
It was not Piper being accused of making up fake nrws, but the media.
Thank you for your post. Strong Christian leadership is desperately needed right now as it relates to Christians and politics. Dr. Grudem is also speaking out persuasively in support of Trump.
Thank you. I respect Dr. Grudem and would like to see his views as well, so I am going to go google that right now.
Thanks. Shalom!
Hi Michael, I very much agree with your sentiments. Well done. Greetings from New Zealand.
Thank you so much for this reasoned response! As a Libertarian I didn’t vote for Trump in 2016, but I gladly voted for him last week! #StopAbortionNow
Thank you, Michael. That was well-thought out and expressed. God is still on the throne. God bless you.
First of all, I am not a US citizen. As a Christian spectator from abroad I am appalled by the strong support for Trump among white evangelicals, and the damage it does for the Christian witness in the nation. Turn back the time a decade or so and it would have been unthinkable for evangelical leaders to voice support to a presidential candidate with a fraction of the character flaws that Trump not only shows, but brags about.
The abortion issue alone is of course a strong argument on its own against voting for any candidate from the Democrats. So I could understand Christians who said they feel they must vote for Trump, despite all his serious flaws. But I certainly cannot understand Christians who views Trump as some kind of heroic, almost messianic figure, and that deny or make excuses for his long and ongoing pattern of terrible behaviour.
Trump is a full blown narcissist, a compulsive liar, a man who brags about his terrible way of treating women, a man who insults and mocks disabled persons and war heroes, and as President he has mishandled the Covid-19 pandemic in a disastrous way, just to mention one of the most concerning issues.
To me it is a mystery and very disturbing that C Michael Patton writes that the only source for claiming Trump has serious character flaws is “the media”. Have you never read his tweets, listened to his press conferences and speeches? Are you buying in to Trumps “fake news”-campaign so much that you no longer believe your own eyes and ears? And could you give any example that makes it credible that Trump is a Christian by any biblical definition?
You can certainly disagree with Piper, but to defend Trump in this manner in just mind blowing. Yes, Jesus had some very harsh words for the religious leaders, like he certainly has for many of them today. The audacity to compare the holy words from our Lord with the arrogance, the lies and the foul mouthed attacks from Trump against anyone who dares to oppose him, against any journalist with a serious question, is shocking. How is it possible for a renowned Christian leader to sink so low? I am profoundly disappointed.
Actually Trump did not mock a disabled person any differently than he’d mocked able bodied persons including Ted Cruz and even himself.
http://www.newstandardpress.com/did-trump-mock-that-disability/
And he mocked John McCain because, after Trump supported his losing campaign in 2012, McCain tried to drag him onstage.
http://www.newstandardpress.com/hero-because-he-was-captured/
According to Dr Birx, even if COVID had been handled perfectly there would have been about 200,000 casualties. According to Dr Fauci, if nothing was done the casualties would be about 2,000,000. The actual numbers are much closer to the former than the latter.
There are no journalists with serious questions for Trump. Just a bunch of leftists who want to use “gotcha” questions against him, like the “have you renounced white supremacy today” routine that they use.
Never mind that Trump has opposed racism and white supremacy for longer than many of them have been alive.
http://www.newstandardpress.com/the-myth-of-trump-and-the-kkk/
Frankly you’re an example of what Thomas Jefferson described when he said that a man who didn’t read the papers was better off than one who did, because the former is merely uninformed, while the latter is misinformed.
Agreed! Thanks David. The PRO Trumpism among Christians is very disheartening.
Response to Michael Patton. Apprecoate your logic. Like you to consider afew other things that this ” doer” did or did not do that you are unaware of. 1. Three most prestigious medical journal condemn Trump for the way SARS-CoV-2 was handled and blame others for his own incompetencency. See links below that showed how he and his administration ( henceforth I will address Trump as he or Trump). Note –he single handedly diminished the stature and ability for CDC capacity internaltionally and domestically to be ineffective. Lancet Jan 24, 2020 reported SARS-Covid-2 . CDC and chinese scientists “worked with us to quickly make information about this new epidemic outbreak and the disease it caused fully and freely available to an international audience.” Nothing was done till March. Read the last paracraph from Lancet. For the First time in over one century this journal has been apolitical. First time they are against this administration. His “America first will leave America not only look down globally and eventually we will be left behind. He withdraw rom Paris agreement a commitment by countries across the world to curb climate change and global warming. Reason-draconian financial and economic burdens the agreement imposes” on the US. He is a business man ?…how about negiotiating the deal? Instead act like a dictator..my way or highway.- Withdrawal fromTranspacific Partnership. This was initially led by the United States, the TPP was aimed at tying together the economies of 12 countries in what would have become the largest trading bloc in the world. With his” America First” policy, reversing decades-old trade policies, hoping to bring jobs back to the US. TPP consist of Japan, Vietnam, Brunei, Singapore, Malaysia, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Mexico, Peru and Chile are the other members of the pact – all located on the edge of the Pacific Ocean. Under the agreement, the member countries would have gradually removed import tariffs and by 2030, goods would have flowed into their ports without any restriction. Besides boosting trade and economic growth, the pact would have helped increase wages and uplift working conditions for labour in countries like Vietnam as all members were required to follow common regulations. Together, these countries make up 40 percent of the global economic output and one-third of its trade, making it the strongest economic partnership. Withdrawal from UNESCO. He punish foes and friends alike if they do not do it Trump’s way. He walk away from Iran nuclear deal. JCPOA . Deal agreed by Iran and five permanent members of UN + Germany 2015, endorsed by UNSecurity Council Resolution .This is a binding agreement tha all states have to comply. America is under an even more obligations as it has insisted that all countries must abide by the binding decisions of UN Security Council. Here comes Trump not only violate Internalation Law but add injury by threatening any countries that do business with Iran will have sanctions impose on them. We are able to do that because of SHIFT banking system. Problem is we have weaponised our dollar against friends and enemices not to mention violate and broke International law. Scary part is our allies are threaten and are in a legal dilemma. So France, Germany, Englandecide to set up their own Trade Exchanges = INSTEX a new channel for non dollar trade with Iran to avert US santions. This topic is beyond the scope of discussion. The essence is when Trump weaponized US $ against friends and enimies, these countries will look for alternatives and when the dollar is no longer the dominant global reserve currency we the Americans will be the Biggest loser. Biden on the other hand understand the workings globally. This is not to say he will make things right. Personally, I believe We are in a Euthyphro dilemma . John Piper sees that and refuse to participate in that. Praying that the Lord will bring up citizens that are able to do: good governance .
see link below to qualities.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31140-5/fulltext Lancet journal. Worth your time reading article about 5 min read. Filled with facts that most of us are not aware and how our lifes been compromised.by irresponsible handling of current pandemic.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/369/6510/1409.full.pdf Science editor stated –Trump Lied about…these are Strong words not taken lightly.
https://www.gdrc.org/u-gov/g-attributes.html qualities to good governance
Thank you for considering John Pioper view as well as mine.
Could not Trump be a Nebuchadnezzar-type figure?
– Proud; arrogant; wealthy; one who thinks he can do or say whatever he likes because he’s the most powerful person in the land; one who attempts to shut down anyone who opposes him….
He’s seen more as a Cyrus by many in the Christian Evangelical world, including many Evangelical leaders.
I am speechless! To Michal Patton and all others who have confessed Donald Trump as your savior, and your Christ, and moreover have compared Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to him (Trump), confirms what I felt when he was elected, and what has been revealed by your own words. Trumps presence in the world is not about Trump, it is about YOU. You were correct when you stated that Trump did not hide what and who he is. Your demise has deen sealed by your own lips as they reveal what is in your own heart. Trump was placed in office by God’s will. Not for judicial appointments and the eradication of abortions, but to uncover and expose those who profess to the world to be of Christ, and is not. May God have mercy on all of you. Trump’s mission is complete, his place was set before our time. Could you not see the wake of destroyed souls, and men of great stature, he have left in his wake? Trump is not of Christ! He is of the seed of Satan. Tricks, lies, and deceit. For the great light of truth has been shown on your own inner- darkness. REVEALATIONS! Is why Trump is here. God’s Gracious Mery Be Upon you.
The hysteria of people like yourselves is why America is rapidly descending into civil war, and why Democrats have murdered Trump supporters like Aaron Danielson and Lee Kelter.
Also it’s Revelation. No “s”.
I was not referring to the scriptures.
The term I wrote (revelations) is a verb, not a noun. That darkness I spoke of, is truly manifest within you. You cannot hide it, or control it. It controls you.
Totally do not see what you see. If you cannot recognize the most prolife president we’ve ever had, or if pro choice matters more to you than the unborn, I would question your Christianity.
Your article grieved me to my core. We are actually a lot alike. I’m a follower of Jesus. I take the Word of God seriously and His great commission personally. I am fiercely pro-life. I am not a Democrat. I have been blessed profoundly over the years by the teaching of John Piper. I know of your ministry and have been blessed by it. And yet I have quite literally lost my breath in reading your article. I wish you had simply said “I care enough about defeating abortion to vote for a President who displays the antithesis of Christlike characteristics” and left it at that. I understand the desire to defeat abortion at all costs. But as Christ followers we cannot defend evil (or outright embrace it) to advance our agenda – even when that agenda is good and right. Christ would not have done it. He would not have us do it in His name.
I agree with you when you said “ I have been called to something very particular and too much revealed passion in this area can damage the opportunities that God has put before me.”
Friend, you have done the very thing you aimed not to do. Drawing parallels from Trump to Christ is a dangerous undertaking that will not serve the gospel. I’m saddened that you felt this damage was necessary.
Your point that actions matter and words don’t is not supported by the 10 commandments themselves as 2 of them are verbal in nature (don’t take the Lord’s name in vain, don’t bear false witness).
Trump’s words are not a harsh (necessary) presentation of the truth – they are a constant spewing of hate and evil. He has not shaken up Washington with his goodness but his immorality. People don’t dislike him because he’s brought change to politics. They dislike him because he breeds violence and represents the worst in us. The factions Trump has created are nothing like the others you mentioned who stood for Christ. Piper’s assessment of Trump is not only due to his past sins. His ongoing, blatant and flagarant present sins are displayed on the news each day – not because of “fake news” but because of his own words that he allows to be captured on video and in print.
“Who doesn’t have indiscretions?” And “ you must talk this way to bring about change” sounds eerily similar to the voice of Satan in the garden. Justification of sin is never a good place to land.
I don’t know if you will grieve over your words at some point in the future. But if you do, I pray the Lord would tenderly and graciously deal with you as He did Peter after He denied the Lord three times. (To be clear, I’m not implying you have denied Christ by your article.) Peter was wrong and his wrong cost him and he grieved over it. The Lord restored him and used him for incredible ministry. I pray the same for you. That the Lord would use you and your ministry for His glory. Prayers for you in the hard and painful days ahead.
Tearful,
I am so sorry you felt this way and it was me who drove you to your first response. Mostly, I am so sorry you have been driven away. We do disagree about Trump and I certainly could be wrong. But, for many of us, we tentatively believe that most of the stuff about Trump’s present disposition, aim, and spirituality are falsehoods (I don’t like to use the word lie casually).
I hope this does not distance us too far. This will more than likely be my last political post for a while. Unless Piper responds(!) or someone in my area unexpectedly writes something new, this will be my last post for a while on politics… It is absolutely exhausting. More than theology!!!! Again, thanks for the comments and you could be right.
What violence has Trump created?
It is not Trump, nor Republicans, who have torn apart the country over the last few years.
It is Democrats who riot, who commit arson and vandalism, who commit murder.
It is Trump supporters like Aaron Danielson and Lee Kelter who lie dead, murdered by Democrats.
Their deaths will not be forgotten, nor forgiven.
I for one have no need for the psychological manipulation, call it what it is “witchcraft”, that you seek to use against Michael and others.
I agree with you, Tearful, and am thankful that you articulated what was in my heart with such compassion. If Donald Trump, the man who said, “Grab ’em by the p****y” and then brushed it off as “locker talk” , who called John McCain a “loser” because he was captured, the man who separated immigrant parents from children and then lost track of over 500 of them and says it’s ok because they are in facilities that are “so clean” and are “well taken care of”, whose idea of denouncing extremist right wing racist groups is to tell them to “stand by and stand down”, just to name a few, is your idea of a Christ like figure, then we have very different ideas of what Christ-like is. All of the above are not fake news, but direct quotes.
Hi Michael,
Please forgive me for writing a post that doesn’t agree with you. I generally don’t like conflict of any kind and I also don’t always feel that I have anything of any substance that’s worth saying (perhaps it could be argued this is one of them). But this a first for me in writing a response to anything I’ve read.
As somebody living in the UK I really struggle with the concept of supporting Trump – believe me I know we have our own political problems over here. But as an outsider looking in, Trump’s actions seem to be truly offensive to the the gospel. I’ve been an avid reader of the news this last year and unlike the arguments levelled at John Piper I’ve literally watched hours and hours of him speaking and there doesn’t seem to be anything humble or Christlike about him. The opposite in fact seems to be displayed. His narcissism, the lies, he refuses to denounce violent actions from those he considers to be his supporters and thereby promotes hatred.
His actions if anything reveal a man who has no intention of following Jesus only whatever path leads him towards power and money. A Christian should be displaying the fruits of the spirit in some measure that would be visible at least occasionally. But he doesn’t seem to have any idea of what dying to self means, it’s a foreign language to him.
To compare his rhetoric as Christ like is simply astounding to me. His character is self serving which is the antithesis of Jesus. As an outsider it looks like he’s willing to take a stand against abortion because he knows it will get him votes. Which is why he’ll hold a bible up outside of a church after moving peaceful protesters with tear gas and brutality. How he looks to his supporters seems to be of more importance than the well being of all of the citizens he’s elected to protect.
Abortion is truly an abomination!! And it shouldn’t be allowed to continue but if he is the champion being held up to the world by the Republicans as an ambassador of Christ, God help us all.
I’m currently reading Alex Motyers exposition on Isaiah and I’ve just read a paragraph where he says that ‘none of the kings under whom Isaiah ministered were fools politically, economically or militarily. It is not however these factors which make for national well being or security. For all their worldly wisdom the country sickened unto death under them.’ Reading this paragraph was what prompted me to write. Looking at what is happening in America (and in the UK) the country is as sick and divided as it is possible to imagine. Trump is politically savvy enough to know how important an issue abortion is. But the damage he’s doing to the nation is growing like a cancer that’s eating into the very precious souls of those who need a leader to take a moral high ground on lots of other issues as well as that one too.
God will have the president in power that He choses and we all agree that nothing will thwart that! But reading some of the posts that people are leaving on here about John Piper, a humble man of God, makes me sad. And I know that wasn’t your intention but Trump’s legacy seems to be one of division and hatred even between brothers and sisters.
God bless you.
I don’t know who you’re getting your news from.
Trump decries violence by every political faction, not just the right. Meanwhile Democrats and their media mouthpieces ignore all left-wing violence, even to the extent of pretending it simply doesn’t exist.
Democrats have rioted in the streets for six months now. They’ve done billions in property damage, and killed dozens.
Trump supporters Lee Kelter and Aaron Danielson lie dead, murdered by Democrats.
It is not Trump that created the hatred in Democrat hearts. He merely revealed it.
Good afternoon Jason and thank you for your response. In answer to the question of where I’m getting my news from there are a number of sources however it’s the live commentaries or interviews where I’ve watch Trump first hand that have made an overwhelming impact on my opinions.
It’s interesting to me that any negative views made about the president are automatically assumed to be categorically wrong because they don’t fit the narrative of some right wing Christians. We can all be guilty of living in our own echo chambers but surely when faced with truth and comparing right from wrong, we can’t ignore the fact that the emperor has no clothes.
As president it’s not enough to say that he didn’t cause something. Although some might disagree with your statement and suggest that there’s an argument to say he did.
Perhaps I’ve missed something, not been informed correctly by the media I’ve been reading. So please do show me if you will, some evidence of Trump proactively promoting peace and unity within the US during his presidency as I can’t think of anything off hand.
Are there any interviews that I might have missed where he displays some evidence of the fruit of the Holy Spirit? After all we are called to exhibit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness gentleness and self-control in our daily lives and I would sincerely like to know if I’ve been misled.
Sadly I have witnessed outbursts of anger, dissension, division, many allegations of sexual immorality, slander, and selfish motivation. His twitter account alone is legendary for what the bible calls the works of the flesh and as far as I know that’s not being run by any left wing media outlets.
As for the hatred in the hearts of the Democrats I believe you may have misunderstood what I meant. There seems to be as much hatred on the right as there is on the left.
Looking forward to your reply.
Please also know that I am not angry, but deeply saddened by reading this. May the Lord have mercy on us all.
Amen!
The argument that Superman is also a Christ figure is all you need to know that you totally missed the point. By the same token, Hitler and Mussolini (as holding the royal office), are Christ figures. Then what, does it mean Germans and Italians would have been wrong in calling out their respective leaders’ character flaws? Even if Trump is a Christ figure by whatever superficial logic you use to justify your point, that argument is in no way a legitimate counterpoint to Piper’s position. Your argument, in my opinion, is just a superficial way of saying that you have already granted Mr Trump diplomatic immunity for any and all of his character flaws, no matter how destructive and un-Christian they may be.
Read up on Superman as a Christ Figure. When the movie came out in 2006 AND 2013, the studios had major campaigns to churches and had the advice of theologians. Many churches preached using Superman as a Christ Figure. I know because I was a pastor who engaged this at the time. The studios hired theologians to write workbooks and bible studies using Superman.
The Count of Monte Christo was also a Christ Figure. Maybe you are defining differently than me?
Please allow another comment on this. Through the partisan Mueller probe, Donald Trump, his family, and campaign were subjected to the most intense investigation of any president ever. Mueller got crickets. Now, a laptop, emails, photos, and whistleblowers are pointing to widespread corruption among the Biden family including Joe Biden himself. Every accusation that John Piper has used against Trump can be leveled at Joe Biden, including the name-calling. And it appears that Joe was making millions from the Chinese, Ukraines, Russians, etc peddling his influence. China gave $70 million to UPENN. UPENN then gave Joe Biden almost $1 million of that (all from public records). Joe Biden helped a Chinese military contractor buy a Michigan factory that makes military parts- this was approved by the Obama/Biden administration. Joe has possibly put himself under the thumb of the Chinese Communist Party. How does this measure up for Joe, John Piper? Meanwhile, as you point out, President Trump has appointed prolife judges, eliminated federal support of Planned Parenthood, etc. to make Trump the most prolife president since 1973. If R.C. Sproul were still alive, he would have given Piper an earful. I saw them both on the same stage answering questions where Sproul said he would never vote for any candidate, not even for dog catcher, who supported abortion. Sproul would call Piper out. Thank you for having done so.
I am an outsider, an Australian, who watches events in your country with great interest and at times disbelief, and at other times thankfulness.
The church I attend has lots of American students as part of our College, and I am amazed at how many think it is their CHRISTIAN duty to vote anti democrat because of the one issue that you raise. It is an equally contentious issue amongst Christians in this country. I am thankful and pleased to see 2 Christians like yourself and Dr. Piper helping to educate And encourage a more thoughtful Approach.
To an outsider looking in, I still cannot see how so many Americans are so pro life on this issue yet so opposed to life on others and so accepting ofthe 220,000 + COVID deaths or so accepting of all the black deaths because in reality black lives do not matter in practice.
Please help my outsider ignorance
The quest
Thanks so much for your comment. Good to hear from an Australian. I would say more than anything that black lives do matter. But you should watch this: https://youtu.be/piwaBO6U43U. It expresses exactly what conservatives believe about black lives matter.
In 2019 American police had hundreds of millions of interactions with the public. During those encounters they killed about a thousand people in the execution of their duties. Of that thousand, about fifty were unarmed. Of that fifty about thirteen were black. Even then some of those killings were lawful because the deceased attacked the officer.
The Black Lives Matter movement is a myth based on a lie.
We only have to look at their current heroes. Jacob Blake, for example, was wanted for sexual assault, he digitally penetrated a woman, stole her keys, and was about to make off with her car and (it appears) children when police arrived. After fighting with them, including shrugging off two taser shots, he appeared to be reaching into the car when the officer shot him.
If you look at all the names BLM wheel around, with only one exception they died while committing a crime, in most cases a violent crime. Breonna Taylor died during a tragic interaction between her boyfriend, who shot at police, and the police who shot back, but it was a tragic accident, not evidence of police targeting Black people.
In regards to the COVID, what you have to understand is that the United States is a huge country. Typically 7 to 8000 people die every day. Provisional numbers suggest that the death rate under COVID is actually lower than it’s been in previous years.
Also, Americans are a proud independent people. Unlike the Australians, who are used to unquestioningly doing what the government tells them to do, Americans don’t. Americans do not readily accept the kinds of restrictions Victorians do. If a governor tried to give orders like Dan Andrews has, it’s very likely he’d have been unseated, shot, or possibly hanged. Of course freedom comes with risk.
Well reasoned, well stated.
I found Piper’s (he is from Minnesota) statements to be wholly out of line. Huh? Words are worse than the active killing of babies in the womb!? I don’t think so. Which is worse, hating or killing. Many Christian “theologians” have this sad thought that Jesus says all sins are equally bad. No. He doesn’t (as your wise use of Mark 11:55ff shows). Jesus talks about weightier matters of the Law, and graver matters of injustice. If a person were to tell their spouse they were disgusted by them and hated them, this would be a grave sin. If they took out a pistol and put three rounds into their spouses cranium, well, this is a more grievous sin, and graver still since it involves a grave.
Do I cringe at Trump some times? Yes. I’ll go further, I don’t think he is terribly bright. I find his manners troublesome. But his accomplishments and the good he has done for the USA has far, far out-weighed his limitations. Who knows but that he was raised up for such a time as this.
He so richly and abundantly gives,
JJ
I learned a few good things from Piper. I’ve also learned he has a disconnect with reality which, to me, makes him a mixed bag. Learn from Piper’s theology, not from his narratives on anything else. Odd how God blesses people. Like with Piper… solid theological insight. But clueless on how to apply it.
You claim that T’s good actions are more beneficial than his harmful words. My problem is that I see so very little beneficial actions. And I do wonder why anyone likes him so much. Then I see among his supporters right-wing extremists who want bring back Jim Crow; people who yell in the face of the police and innocent protesters with loaded automatic weapons; and people who seek to protect police who abuse and murder innocent blacks. It is then I can’t help but believe that with so many followers like this that they do really love him and make up an influential portion of his popular base. A Christian cannot love someone like T who says the hateful things he says. Certainly there is a sense in which all Christians should love him. We can love someone in the sense of seeking their best without feeling any emotional attraction toward them. In this sense we can love our enemies. Christians living under Hitler could say they loved him in that sense while still seeking and praying for his death. We shouldn’t seek T’s death yet we should still pray that he will face the justice he deserves for the evil he has done. Even if T has not committed so many horrible deeds (which you don’t seem to notice), you don’t seem to notice that his words have caused very great harm. Read James again; do you not realize that our words can sometimes be far more harmful than our actions?
You say that T does not deal in “half-truths and corruption” but is “aggressive and forthright.” Yes, he is aggressive, but he is not forthright. When he says something egregious he often tries to cover it up and say he really meant something else. And he is corrupt; I’ll give you a list shortly. As Piper says, he is factious. All liberals, all BLM supporters, anyone seeking police reform he automatically lump with Antifa; all protesters are rioters and looters. To T these are all the enemy who need to be locked up or worse. He encouraged violence against protesters at his rallies. That’s not factious? Obama would try to get into conversations with protesters at his rallies and speaking engagements. T ridicules and demeans reporters before they can even speak. That’s not factious?
You mention Piper bringing up T’s past sins which you say are gone since he’s a Christian (1). But T said he never repents. You cannot be a Christian without repenting of your sins. So his past sins are still with him. If you can find T even saying that he no longer believes something he once said, that would be enough. But he doesn’t even do that. He never repents and he never regrets. If God does not remove our sins, then we are defined by those sins. That’s who we are. That’s why the lost are lost.
You say that Piper talked about the destructiveness of T’s character but gave no examples. I’ll give some in a minute. Jesus did call some people fools, whitewashed tombs, wicked, vipers, sons of the devil, and hypocrites; but these people did accurately fit those descriptions. T denigrated people who clearly do not deserve it but who merely oppose him or question him or do not look like him or have the money he has or come from the same country he comes from. Someone who out of loyalty to his country exposed his treasonous acts, he called a traitor. Yet all the man did was tell us what T said to the leader of another country. An elderly man had a concussion after he was knocked down by the police. He just wanted to ask the police what they were doing and T called him an Antifa. You say T must speak harshly to bring about change. His kind of speech only brings about division and hatred.
You complain the media has created T into a villain he really isn’t (2). Yet most of what we know of T we know because of what we have seen him do or say. Nobody has to twist his words; we hear them from his own mouth. We have more than just accusations of xenophobia, racism, and misogyny. He never denied the claim by witnesses that he called Haiti and African countries sh**hole countries and asked why we don’t have immigrants from northern Europe. That’s not racism or xenophobia? (Remember that the biblical standard is that we just need two witnesses to confirm an accusation, even for religious and civil leaders.) He never denied calling certain women fat or ugly. One lady in particular he called “Miss Piggy.” Do you not remember what he said about Carly Fiorina? Do you remember how he said he would love to yell “You’re fired!” into a certain woman’s “fat ugly face.” None of that’s misogyny?
You say the issue of abortion is paramount for you. It is for me too. It is the only reason I never voted for Obama. I would almost be a one issue Republican if I thought T could end legalized abortion. But like Piper, I think the evil T has done and which we know he will continue to do if reelected is so great that it would equal the abortion issue. If it were just a matter of stopping abortion vs the evils T has committed, then, like Piper, I would refrain entirely from voting. But let me tell you why in fact the abortion issue pushes me over the line to vote for Biden. Here let me just repeat an argument I’ve posted on my FB page and in response to Michael Brown’s pro-T argument.
WHY NO CHRISTIAN HAS THE RIGHT TO VOTE FOR TRUMP
T is committing crimes which no Christian can support. He is still tearing children from their parents’ arms, locking them in cages, and separating them permanently. He is not merely committing private sins which harm virtually no one (if there is such a thing). The border atrocities are not private sins. No Christian has a right to vote for a man who allows this. He eventually made an executive order purporting to stop the separations but then continued to do so under cover. We know that if reelected he will continue this policy. If you think this is a comparatively insignificant misdeed, read the followingcomments by Lauren Dasse (Executive Director, Florence Immigrant & Refugee Rights Project):
“We met a terrified six-year-old blind boy taken from his mother at the border. All he did was beg for his mother. If we cannot represent him, he will stand in front of a judge and represent himself, since there is no public defender system in immigration court, even for children. So will the 12-month old baby we met—stripped from her inconsolable mother’s arms. So will the 58 other children living in that children’s detention center in the middle of Arizona right now, all under the age of 10, all afraid and desperate for their mothers and fathers.”
This must be stopped, but it will not until T is removed.
If you are pro-life as I am and you think the abortion (AB) issue is a tie-breaker, then if you recognize that both candidates advocate evil, shouldn’t this lead you to refrain from voting from either? If Hitler and Stalin were our only candidates, wouldn’t we be obligated to vote for neither?
I think there is one other factor which should push us over the line to vote for Biden, however. We know that if T is reelected, AB may or may not eventually be outlawed. Even if we get a pro-life judge added to the SC, nothing may change—ever! The last 40 years has shown us that just having purported pro-life presidents or a pro-life court will not end legal AB. And even if Roe v Wade is overturned, this only means that some states will have legalized AB and some will not. Those seeking abortions will simply go to the states where it’s legal. On the other hand we also know that if T is defeated, the border atrocities will stop immediately. I cannot base my vote on what a mentally unstable man might do if he is lucky enough to have the opportunity to do it. Even if I thought he were fully sane, I cannot side with what he might do that is good as opposed to the evil we know will definitely continue.
If you want more reasons a Christian cannot support T, here’s my partial list:
God does not honor
• an arrogant and hateful man
• an adulterer, rapist, and child molester [1]
• a man who tears babies from their mother’s arms, many never to see each other again [2]
• a man who imprisons children and adult asylum seekers and refugees in overcrowded cages, languishing in filth, unprotected from cold and heat [3]
• a man who swindles other businesses out of tens of thousands of dollars [4]
• a man who tries to force people from their homes and property [5]
• a man who encourages violence against protesters at his rallies
• a man who steals from the poor to give to the rich with a near two trillion dollar tax break to the super-rich
• a man who steals from the poor by cutting off their only income, social security [6]
• a man who calls those who give their lives for their country “suckers” and “losers” [7]
• a man who ridicules Christians who pray for him [8]
• a man who swindles people out of their money with fake charities and a fake university
• a man who considers his followers “disgusting people” [9]
• a man who gives needed medical supplies to government leaders who support him but withholds them from those who do not praise him [10]
• a man who thinks of Africans as from “sh** hole countries,” calls immigrants “animals,” and says all Haitians have AIDS
• a man who sends asylum seekers back to their home countries and to almost certain death [11]
• a man who seeks to remove health care from the poor [6]
• a man who honors world leaders who murder the innocent and murder their political rivals
• a man who honors men who fought to keep slavery alive
• a man who ridicules the handicapped and women who do not meet his standards of beauty
• a man who stokes racism and division and violence by supporting racist and militant right wing organizations
• a man who admits police brutality and abuse of power yet does nothing to stop it and often encourages it
• a man who sells out our allies (the Kurds) to be slaughtered to advance his profit (to benefit his properties in Turkey)
• a man who would rather have a dictatorship than a democracy if he cannot be elected by popular vote [12]
• a criminal who seeks reelection to avoid prosecution [13]
REFERENCES: Most of the allegations above are well known and supported by credible witnesses and some are uncontested. I could mention many more. Some of the articles mentioned below (the numbers in brackets) do not cover many of the claimed instances of abuse which have occurred under that topic (e.g., 1, 4, 11). [1] For the latter two allegations in this endnote I present only one case, though I think this constitutes very compelling evidence according to biblical standards (2 Cor 13.1). For charges like this, the reader will need to judge for oneself. “Lawsuit Charges Donald Trump with Raping a 13-Year-Old Girl.”https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/06/23/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit/ [2] “Family Separation Under the Trump Administration.” https://www.splcenter.org/news/2020/06/17/family-separation-under-trump-administration-timeline#2020 [3] “A Crime by Any Name” https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/border-facilities/593239/ [4] “A Brief History of Trump’s Small-time Swindles” https://theweek.com/articles/783976/brief-history-trumps-smalltime-swindles [5] “You’ve Been Trumped Too” https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/aug/12/youve-been-trumped-too-review [6] “Robert Reich Reacts to the RNC” https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2666717246938296 [7] “Trump: Americans Who Died in War Are ‘Losers’ and ‘Suckers’” https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-americans-who-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/ [8] “Trump Detests Christians” https://www.rawstory.com/2020/09/trump-detests-christians-and-he-deceived-pastors-and-mocked-them-after-they-left-trump-tower-michael-cohens-disloyal/?fbclid=IwAR3rciA3LzduznmaaXZXbrIDFoxGa6oMSeCDPEuABDFGJEH6vPoFVK0ZEOI#.X1eHZQ-zjvI.facebook [9] Ex-White House aide Olivia Troye, “disgusting people” https://www.the-sun.com/news/1493113/trump-supporters-disgusting-covid-shake-hands/ [10] “How Trump Turned Ventilators into a Form of Patronage” https://www.vox.com/2020/4/10/21215578/trump-ventilators-coronavirus-cory-gardner-colorado-jared-polis-patronage [11] “Asylum Seekers Say U.S. is Returning Them to the Dangers They Fled” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/world/americas/immigration-guatemala-us-asylum.html [12] He does not care if he is legally elected or elected at all so long as he is president. He has even asked his followers to vote illegally (to vote twice) to keep him in power. This is democracy? [13] https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/11/trump-2020-criminal-prosecution-1055291
You say you love John Piper. I hate what I consider to be his heretical Calvinism (creating an evil God who ultimately created some people merely to eternally damn them), yet, given my earlier definition of Christian love, I think I can say as well as you that I do still love this man.
So like any fair assessment i looked up (past and present) sources…and i have to say wow really? you use vox.com and rawstory.com…
based on this i would have to say no….your sources are what is stoking the fire of hate…Its quite the opposite if you would actually look beyond these places. To vote biden is anything but christian…love of murder of children, destruction of humanity in terms of what a family is (only man and woman united), racism like a famous quote “you ain’t black unless you vote for him”……supporting those who hate…
Johannes, you assume some of my sources are dishonest yet you offer no evidence. Like most people who are interested in theology who visit pages like this, I’m not usually interested in politics. So I’ve never heard that Vox or Rawstory are questionable.
You think the biblical view of a family is a man and woman united. I agree but I don’t think it is ours to tell those who disagree what they should believe or how they should live. When we think they are doing something wrong or harmful, it is ours to seek to persuade them; it is not ours to seek establish a society which will force them to live as we think they should live.
Johannes, it has been about a week and you still have offered no evidence that Rawstory and vox are dishonest sources. Evidently for you just reporting the facts is stoking the fires of hate. I noticed one of the Rawstory articles just repeated statements from Cohen’s book. Is this what makes them dishonest? Your Toddler-in-Chief calls any writing that dares to criticize him “fake news” and thinks that constitutes serious criticism. Evidently you do too.
Amazing. Not one word you just said was true.
Trump has no violent white supremacist supporters. Even the most well known white nationalist in the country, Richard Spencer, is voting Democrat this time because “at least they get things done”.
In 2019 American police had hundreds of millions of interactions with the public. During those encounters they killed about a thousand people in the execution of their duties. Of that thousand, about fifty were unarmed. Of that fifty about thirteen were black. Even then some of those killings were lawful because the deceased attacked the officer.
The Black Lives Matter movement is a myth based on a lie.
We only have to look at their current heroes. Jacob Blake, for example, was wanted for sexual assault, he digitally penetrated a woman, stole her keys, and was about to make off with her car and (it appears) children when police arrived. After fighting with them, including shrugging off two taser shots, he appeared to be reaching into the car when the officer shot him.
If you look at all the names BLM wheel around, with only one exception they died while committing a crime, in most cases a violent crime. Breonna Taylor died during a tragic interaction between her boyfriend, who shot at police, and the police who shot back, but it was a tragic accident, not evidence of police targeting Black people.
Trump has strict border controls because the 2016 Flores v Lynch ruling says that adults cannot be housed with children. That ruling came into being because the laxer enforcement under Obama allowed child traffickers access to children.
It appears more than 500 children have been spared that ghastly fate under Trump.
The hatchet job by The Atlantic was a lie, as attested even by Trump critics like John Bolton. It says something for your “honesty” or lack thereof, that you’d refer to it.
The tax cuts were for everyone, and if Biden gets in and cancels them you will realize that. Too late of course, but you’d get what you deserved.
He called members of MS-13 “animals” and they are.
Trump told his supporters to mail in vote, and then go check that their votes had been counted on the day, and if they had not, make sure they voted. That’s expected given his distrust of the mail system for handling sensitive material like votes (and given the incidents of ballots being thrown out that have come to light since, he’s right to be concerned).
Robert Reich has regularly threatened Trump supporters.
Aaron Danielson and Lee Kelter are Trump supporters, murdered by Democrats, by people like you.
We will not forget. We will not forgive.
Jason, most everything you said (that I understand) is false. (Some I don’t even know what you are talking about. What is this “hatchet job” by the Atlantic monthly to which you vaguely allude?) But to seek to refute all of your claims would take us both into hours of deeper investigation and documentation, argument and counter-argument, which I know neither of us has the interest in entering (at least I don’t). So let me dwell on a couple of points that are beyond question. T has separate families, sometimes literally tearing babies from their mothers’ arms, and will continue to do so if reelected. Many have been permanently separated. I’m pro-life but I’ve shown that nothing of any substance will change if T is reelected and a pro-life judge is added to the SC. Those two points alone requires me to do all that is in my power to seek to depose T and they should do the same for any conscientious Christian.
Nice Jason. ‘We will not forgive’…
So, not a Christian I gather. I drips out in your approach on this page.
Jason, in my last post I said I can’t respond to all of your claims so I just mentioned one of the undeniable atrocities T has committed. I’ve gotten a little more time so I’m going to see if I can respond to some more of your bogus claims. Here’s one and maybe I’ll have time to respond to more in the future.
You said, “He called members of MS-13 ‘animals’ and they are.” You were denying that he said this about all immigrants.
Here’s what T said in May 2018.
“We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — we’re stopping a lot of them— but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people, these are animals, and we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before.”
Notice he didn’t say MS-13, just “people coming into the country.” So he did not call MS-13 animals, he called all immigrants bad people and animals.
The press secretary and then later T himself tried to do some damage control by claiming he was only talking about MS-13, which he did not say at all. T even said “And if you look a little bit further on in the tape you’ll see that,” which was an outright lie.
NPR further commented, “Despite evidence to the contrary, Trump has repeatedly insisted that illegal immigration to the U.S. is contributing to a wave of crime. During the 2016 campaign, he famously referred to immigrants from Mexico as “bad hombres” and said most were ‘drug dealers, criminals, rapists.’ ”
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/17/611877563/during-roundtable-trump-calls-some-unauthorized-immigrants-animals
Mike I so agree with your comment. I trust that God is sovereign and appoints leaders according to the closeness the people are to God. I see Biden as a judgement against America and Trump as a object of Grace being extended to America to return to Him as our God in whom we trust. My actions will be to pray, petition, praise with thanksgiving and vote. May God be Glorified in all!
Politics can be so divisive even among believers or “believer”. i did a quick overview of the article because of the title since i recognize the name due to the pastor of our fellowship & others have quoted this person. It has troubled me as of late due to others in the fellowship saying things about the president that don’t really line up with scripture such as speaking evil or bringing reviling accusations (Jude 9). It seems as though the past sins of a person should bear weight for whether someone is fit for any positions.
With that said, God is in control and puts whom He wants and also like the rivers of water turns the hearts of kings wherever He pleases.
The man is not an idol or should be looked to as one but what he has done while in office all the while being attacked literally nonstop by the so called ‘educated’, media, politicians and unfortunately those of the church is a testament of God’s grace. i pray people would continue to pray for the man and for God’s mercy on the land in which we reside. however it turns out.
Johannes, political and religious leaders should be subject to “reviling accusations” according to Scripture (1 Tim 5.19). Jude 9 is speaking of angelic beings, whether good or evil.
Brilliant Truth filled and courageous analysis….all along trumps political trajectory i have noted that only a light shining in darkness could inspire such kneejerk mindless venomous relentless attacks….i am a jewish believer and the attacks on trump are eearily reminiscent of the reactions i elicit when i attemt to share the gospel with my fellow jews. The disproportionate violence of these irrational reactions are spiritually telling….bless you michael. I am so grateful for you and all you do and for you great integrity
The persecution of New York Jews by de Blasio and Cuomo have a lot of them looking favorably at Trump.
As they should. His father, Fred Trump, was a staunch supporter of his local Jewish community, and Donald grew up with them.
Please explain, Jason. What “persecution” has occurred. Links?
I guess history does repeat. If only we had learned more from history when the Church in Germany saw reason to support Hitler. I just think – wow!
Hi Mis, it does sound like you’re believing much of the media. Why do you think Trump is like Hitler? People use the Heather card and all kinds of arguments try to in the argument. We usually call it the argumentum nazium. The funny thing is that every time people use it it’s usually because they don’t really have any fax to back it up and I know that what they have learned could very likely be wrong In their subconscious. I would really love to hear an argument that you can make that Trump is like Hitler back it up with statements he’s made from his own mouth.
You again reveal the poor approach you have to both logic and the disingenuous nature of your responses.
I never said Trump was like Hitler, but that for you was an easy way to dismiss the need to reflect upon history. The correlation is that you are ready to ignore words and actions of an individual (Trump) because you believe they will give you what you want. You keep asking people to give evidence of Trump’s godlessness, which shows you to be intentionally ignorant or insincere to your critique of those who hold a contrary view.
Imagine the 12 disciples were constantly acting against God’s law (moral/actual) and Jesus just let it slide. He called out sin. Trump lives it, allows it, encourages it and you….let it slide.
Please don’t ask ‘give examples of what Trump has said’. Why? The lies on Covid-19 alone…”it is going away’; ‘we are rounding the corner’… Lies.
So much power imbalance also. Read Micah and consider what Micah would say about the approach of Trump to power and powerless. Why the intentional blindness to such obvious evils?
“You again reveal the poor approach you have to both logic and the disingenuous nature of your responses.” You are probably right. I will take this into consideration.
But I do think you’re expecting the president to act like a pastor. Of course as the post said there will be indiscretions. I expect that of even the most godly people. You could find things that they have said or done, or say or do, take them in the context you want or sometimes in context and destroy them. I don’t believe what people say about Biden. I take everything into consideration. And all I’m asking you To do is to take into consideration what I’ve said in the post because it all could be correct. It may be wrong, but it could be correct. You cannot say it’s as clear as you think it is with so many good people dividing over it. Both sides have their points in both sides could be right or wrong. Can we at least concede that?
No…not in any way am I casting Trump in the mode of a Pastor. That would never cross my mind. What church would keep a pastor who lies, repeatedly. Who mocks others – constantly. Gosh – why would you even suggest as much?
Indiscretions – yes, they appear throughout the political spectrum. But you were the one who made a case, reflecting upon Jesus – to support Trump. You invoked an image of Jesus, to justify support for Trump. How is that possible, without the same mindset of the church in Germany, ignoring all that was apparent abut Hitler – but being willing to look past that because they saw in it their own potential political, social, economic gain.
History repeats. It is sad you have been such a strong supporter of it – to the detriment of your standing in the field of biblical teaching.
Mr. Patton,
I am neither as bright nor as thoughtful as others who’ve commented on this article. But I am very thankful to have read it. Your thoughts and perspectives have helped me to identity and voice my own. In the end, I stand boldly alongside you on 2 points:
!. Abortion is a tragedy treated as a right and is an issue worth standing for above others.
2. We move through the history of this nation looking forward to the city built and designed by God.
God is on The Throne.
Rejoicing with you,
Anne
Thank you, I too needed this! Also, there are some brilliant and informative comments.
Thank you Michael for this post.
Since 2016 I have been so aggravated by people who seem to think that God can forgive anyone but Donald Trump. When Obama was President we would hear from Christians over and over to pray for him. They reached out to Obama and gave him the benefit of the doubt. BTW, talk about arrogance, Trump can’t hold a candle to Obama on the narcissist scale. I was so disappointed with many Christian leaders who instead of taking an opportunity to reach out and pray with our new President did nothing but judge him and bring up his past. I have a pretty wretched past but by the grace of God I am forgiven and set free. I would hate to be constantly judged by who I used to be instead of who I am today, and have been for over 20 years. It was a bad witness. Thankfully, there were some Christian leaders who did reach out and have had a relationship with him as well as influence in his administration, which is full of amazing Christian leaders. Those are the people he has chosen to surround himself with. Compare that with our former President.
I marvel at the abuse DJT has taken and still he moves forward, many would have crumbled long ago. It takes character to put up with constant abuse, and lies. He has my respect.
It astounds me at how many people have Trump Derangement Syndrome, it is real. And like most syndromes, it affects your ability to think clearly and logically. I believe Piper has TDS and nothing Trump could do would change his mind. He just does not like Trump. So sad, Christians of all people should at least think things through and be willing to find the good in someone instead of riding the cultural wave of hate.
Thanks again for a well thought out article, I am grateful for your ministry.