I remember when I was young, I was taught that there was a place called “Abraham’s Bosom.” The way it was explained to me made perfect sense at the time. You go to heaven if you trust in Christ. You go to hell if you don’t. People go to heaven because Christ’s atonement on the cross paid for their sins. God cannot be in the presence of sin (Hab. 1:13). Therefore, those who are covered by Christ’s death can be in the presence of God. Those who are not, cannot. 

So far so good? But there is a problem: what about all God’s people who came before Christ’s death? What about Abraham, Moses, David, and Isaiah? According to the theory, they were not yet covered by Christ blood. Conclusion: they, before Christ’s death, were not in the presence of God. They were somewhere else waiting for their sins to be covered.

This “somewhere else” was known as “Abraham’s Bosom.” Think “Protestant Purgatory” or something like that. Abraham’s Bosom existed as a holding tank for God’s people until Christ’s death on the cross. Once the atonement was made, Abraham’s Bosom it was vacated as all its occupants were ushered into God’s presence in heaven.

The name “Abraham’s Bosom” came from the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16. “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried” (Luke 16:22). Notice, this parable was given before Christ’s atonement. Therefore, people have said that this must be the place, between heaven and hell, that pre-Cross saints went to.

Why there is no such thing as Abraham’s Bosom

As nice and tidy as that might sound theologically and biblically, it does not really work. There is no such place as Abraham’s Bosom.

First, the idea that God cannot be in the presence of sin is untenable.

The passage in Hab. 1:13 simply means that God is too pure to approve sin. It has nothing to do with sin or evil being in God’s presence. Here are some of the reasons:

  • After the fall, we find God walking in the Eden with Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:8).
  • Satan himself can be in God’s presence. In Job 1:6, we see Satan presenting himself before God (see also 1 Chron 18:18-21; Rev. 12:10).
  • Christians, who are still sinners (1 John 1:8), are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Obviously the Holy Spirit must be able to be in the presence of sin.
  • Christ, God incarnate, was in the presence of sin the whole time he walked the earth (John 1:14). He was even carried in the womb of a sinner!

Second, the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus does not teach that “Abraham’s Bosom” is a separate heaven.

In the parable, Christ is confronting the religious leaders’ bad theology. They were lovers of money (Luke 16:14). They believed that being rich and healthy was a sign that God was on your side. If you were poor and sick then God was not with you. In the parable, the rich man, whom all the Pharisees thought was the best Jew with great rewards waiting for him in heaven, found himself in torment in Hell. The poor sick man, who was, in the mind of the Pharisees, a bad Jew, was ushered by the angels to Abraham’s “side” or “bosom.” The idea is not ontological (dealing with a physical place), but relational. To be at one’s side or bosom represented the closest place of fellowship one could have with another. The one who the Pharisees believed was not a good child of Abraham winds up at the closest place of fellowship that there is—Abraham’s bosom. Christ was being rhetorical. The rich man is unnamed and forgotten forever. Lazarus’ name means “God helps”. The rich man dies and is buried. The poor man dies and is carried by the angels. The rich man goes to hell, “far away” from Abraham (Luke 16:23). The poor man goes to Abraham’s side, in heaven.


Saints in the Old Testament did not need a special dispensation. God can be in the presence of sin. If he could not be in the presence of sin, we are in big trouble. Nevertheless, they were forgiven in anticipation of Christ’s atonement. When David, Abraham, Moses, and other Old Testament saints died, they immediately went into the presence of God on the bases of Christ’s shed blood, though yet future.

Romans 3:24-26
“Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”

C Michael Patton
C Michael Patton

C. Michael Patton is the primary contributor to the Parchment and Pen/Credo House Blog. He has been in ministry for nearly twenty years as a pastor, author, speaker, and blogger. Th.M. Dallas Theological Seminary (2001), president of Credo House Ministries and Credo Courses, author of Now that I'm a Christian (Crossway, 2014) Increase My Faith (Credo House, 2011), and The Theology Program (Reclaiming the Mind Ministries, 2001-2006), host of Theology Unplugged, and primary blogger here at Parchment and Pen. But, most importantly, husband to a beautiful wife and father to four awesome children. Michael is available for speaking engagements. He can be contacted at [email protected]

    333 replies to "The Myth of “Abraham’s Bosom”"

    • Daniel

      Can you address where, if not Abraham’s bosom, that Christ went and preached between the crucifiction and resurrection? If 1 Peter 3:18-19 is speaking of heaven, are we “imprisoned” there?

    • Dr Michael

      Abraham’s Bosom is just the place where believers go before the resurrection in the millenial kingdom and then the New Heavens and New earth are brought down. It’s what most people mean when they say heaven. If Hades is a real place in the parable, Abraham’s bosom is. But it is not the same place as those you have mentioned above describe it.

      • Hollis

        Abraham’s bosom is almost like an allegory for the book of life but if read correctly it can be said a set apart place for faithful and righteous Jews in the grave who doesn’t die the average death of everyone else. Abraham’s bosom is like ther ark of the covenant in retrospect. It’s not purgatory. My New Testament reference are the saints who God tells to sleep a little longer; these people are the saints that are dead/sleep. The truth about the heaven and Hell is if when we die we go to one or the other Jesus didn’t have to come to die.

        • Joseph Callahan

          Well said sister. One doesn’t have to be a scholar to understand the clear meaning in scripture about any topic. But this topic the Bible is very clear….death is as a sleep, the dead no nothing, etc, they are in the grave waiting for the first resurrection……hopefully, as Paul clearly stated in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

    • Craig Bennett

      Michael; great post. I have just blogged on these parables in Luke. http://craigbenno1.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/i-have-a-problem-with-the-some-of-the-headings-in-luke-16-17-in-the-2010-tniv/

      There I make the point that the reference Jesus is making about marriage and divorce isn’t a teaching about it; rather is slapping the religious leaders in the face and telling them that they have divorced God and married money.. and therefore have committed adultery against God.

    • Thrica

      Nice. Taking parables literally never makes for good theology. I think you could go further though. This isn’t even a problem which needs solving unless you postulate an intermediate state, which Biblically I see very little reason to do.

    • bethyada

      Perhaps, Michael, they went to Sheol? This makes sense of the OT passages.

    • Daniel

      Just out of curiosity, where does Luke 16 say that this story is a parable? If it is just a parable, where is the typical explanation of the moral of that story?

    • mbaker

      How God saves has not changed. The OT saints were justified by faith, just as we are. While their covenant with God was different than ours because we were born after Christ, they still believed God and that was credited to them as righteousness.

      How much more will they be rewarded in heaven for believing God by faith alone than we are nowadays who have been born into the generations after Christ? Perish the thought of them going to Sheol. If anything we are less deserving of God’s grace than they were, who could only trust and hope in the Savior to come.

    • jnorm

      I’m gonna stick with the historical record on this one.

    • bethyada

      Sheol wasn’t for the wicked, it was for the dead. Note Samuel.

      The pit was the place for the wicked.

    • Jim

      Can anyone answer the questions which follow these verses?

      “What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his SOUL from the power of Sheol?” (Ps. 89:48).

      “But God will redeem my SOUL from the power of Sheol; FOR HE WILL RECEIVE ME” (Ps. 49:15).

      (And David’s prophecy concerning Christ): “You will not abandon MY SOUL to Sheol” (Ps. 16:10). And then Peter preached, “he (David) looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither ABANDONED TO HADES, nor did His flesh suffer decay… but He received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:31-33)

      1. The last passages distinctly speaks of Christ’s SOUL, and His body, and receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit from His Father. If Sheol= heaven, and heaven was the common destination for OT believers, then why would someone say, “You won’t abandon My SOUL to heaven”? If Christ’s soul went directly to heaven when He died on the cross, then why did the Scripture say His SOUL WOULD NOT BE ABANDONED to Sheol/Hades, and what was the significance of Peter proclaiming “He was neither abandoned to Sheol”?

      2. In Ps. 49:15, if Sheol=heaven, then why would there be a declaration that God would redeem his SOUL from the power of heaven? If all dead OT believers were in heaven, then whose SOUL was going to be redeemed by God from the power of Sheol, and be received by God? When and how was His SOUL redeemed? (As Micheal recently wrote, “Even when they rebelled, God initiated a plan to give man redemption. He gave them children and began to work through the line of one of them so that HE COULD EVENTUALLY REDEEM man who did not deserve to be redeemed.”)

      • Jerry Parks

        Three points: 1 Jesus went into paradise with the thief when He died, and He had not yet been to the Father when Mary mistook Him for a gardener. So paradise was not then in heaven.
        2. Paradise is now in heaven.
        3. Jesus led captivity captive Eph.4
        And certainly God can be in the presence of sin He is omnipresent, and Jesus is God.

      • Joe

        I know Jim reply back in 2011, but I believe Jim is just a little mixed up. How does Jim deduce that Sheol = Heaven? Sheol = Hades and Hades = Hell. Just trying to clarify.

      • Woodie Williams

        Sheol is not equal to heaven. Sheol is the grave.

    • John Edmond

      I think that some concepts in the Bible are not given enough information from other passages to hammer them out completely. Abram’s Bosom is far from Eastern or Catholic concepts of purgatory. I do think you have clear evidence of a dual chamber concept from the Bible, but I don’t think everything in the afterlife can be made clear.
      I think it is wise to back off from some things and say, “not enough information to determine.”

      • Woodie Williams

        I agree. So many times when we are not given every detail in scripture there’s a tendency to fill in the gaps with what we think is reasonable. This not a good practice.

    • Tim


      Most parables are not labeled in the original text as “parables” Most of the things that are labelled as parallels were added later as section headings. It’s clearly a parable because it fits the format of the parables Jesus told. It’s a fictional story that uses no names and is used to convey a point. The purpose of the parables is not to give base morals, although some do, but rather to provide an illustration of some aspect of our life in relationship with God. Many of Jesus’ parables were not explained in the text and are left to interpretation. Ones like the parable of the sower where jesus explained everything were not too common.

    • casey

      Jim, I think that at least some of the time Sheol is just understood as death aka the grave…not necessarily a post-death destination, which the OT seems to largely (though not completely) ignore.

    • Daniel

      @Tim: If parables don’t mention named people, wouldn’t the use of a real name, like Lazarous, and mention of a real person like Abraham indicate that this *was* a real event? Can you provide an example of any other parable where real historical people were mentioned? Even if it doesn’t start out by saying “And Jesus told a parable saying…”, it doesn’t follow the typical example like you see earlier in the chapter. Luke 16:1-9 being explained in 10-13 is obviously a parable with a meaning given to the analogy. Where do we see that in 19-31? Even when a parable isn’t specifically explained, it is often in the context of some question so there is context and not sandwichied between talk of divorce and temptation with no context given.

    • Jim

      In this case however, the Son of God who decended from heaven (John 3;13) is the One who is giving us the information. Jesus spoke often of heaven. I was looking to see how many times He referenced heaven apart from the phrase “kingdom of heaven”. There were so many that I just listed the times He made mention of the “Father who is in heaven” in just the book of Matt. alone: (Matt. 5:16, 45 48; 6:1, 9; 7:11, 21; 10:32, 33; 12:50). So if He had meant heaven, we know He was from heaven and He often spoke of heaven. But in this case He didn’t.

      But it’s where the story of Lazarus was told, and who the story was told to that is pretty amazing.

    • Ron

      “The poor man goes to Abraham’s side, in heaven.”

      Where does the parable mention anything about “heaven”?

    • Ron

      You’re right Daniel, it’s a true story and a not a parable. Because we all know that in real life, when people die, angels “carry” their immaterial souls to Hades where, although they are immaterial, seem to have bodies (bosoms, fingers, tongues, etc). We also know that the people in “heaven” will be able to communicate back and forth with those in Hades, and that the two are separated by a large chasm.

      All joking aside, this story is opened with precisely the same formula as the two that precede it:

      15:11 “There was a man who had two sons…”
      16:01 “There was a rich man who had a manager…”
      16:19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple…”

      Lazarus is named because his name means “God helps”, as CMP mentioned.

    • Dave Z

      The idea that the story must be true because it has a name makes no sense. Is there some rule that “Parables can not contain names?” Maybe someone can provide chapter and verse for that?

      Regarding the meaning, Jesus explains it: “they won’t believe even if someone rises from the dead,” which is a clear reference to the response of the Pharisees after Jesus’ own resurrection.

      As someone mentioned above, a forced attempt to call it a true story creates HUGE theological problems, not to mention missing the whole point of the story. (BTW, another problem is that the story, if true, seems to teach salvation by poverty)

      I think the desire for it to be true is based on the fact that except for this story, scripture contains virtually no description of the afterlife, other than the descriptions in Revelation. We desperately want to know what happens after death, so we’ll take what we can get, and if we have to insist this is a true story, so be it.

    • Daniel

      @Dave: I don’t know if that was directed at me or not, but I am not claiming it has to be real because it uses name. I was challenging Tim’s statement in comment #12 where he said, “It’s a fictional story that uses no names”.

    • Dave Z

      No, not aimed at you Daniel. Not aimed at anyone in particular, but it is a common understanding. I know a guy who was taught in seminary that it’s a true story specifically because of the name. But to me, that just doesn’t make sense. That’s all I meant.

    • Perry Robinson

      The reason Lazarus is named is not due to the meaning of his name. Most Jewish names had such meanings. The reason he is named is because it is taken to be the back story and the reason why the jewish leadership was trying to kill him.

      Jhn 12:10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;

      Sheol in the OT designates generally the realm of the dead. It has according to the OT, two compartments, an uipper and a lower one. Deut 32:22 The lower one is usually designatged by Hades in the NT and the higher one as Paradise in the OT, NT and non-canonical literature.

      Gen 37:35 indicates that the just and wicked went to sheol and that in the OT period heaven was not accessible to them directly. Ps 73:23-25. Hebrews makes it clear that they had not obtained yet what was promised.

      As for the story teaching salvation by pverty if it were true, this is fallacious since even if it is a parable it would do so.

    • Perry Robinson

      More over, the parable teaching salvation by poverty wouldn’t be any more problematic than the Levitical laws teaching forgiveness by giving of money.

      John Edmond, just a friendly correction, the Orthodox do not have a doctrine of purgatory.

    • Ron

      Perry, there is no indication that the Lazarus of the Lukan parable is the same Lazarus mentioned in John’s gospel.

      And can you demonstrate that the OT teaches that Sheol has two “compartments”, and that the OT and NT designate one as Hades, and the other as “Paradise”? As it is, interpreting “the lowest parts” of the Deuteronomy passage as indicating a “compartment” is a bit of a stretch.

    • […] the subject; it is a great resource. The author made a post on the basis of a comment I made on the Parchment and Pen blog in regards to my understanding of the passage about divorce in Luke 16:18 and says. This is an […]

    • Jeff Ayers

      Jesus shortly before he gave up the ghost on the cross said Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

      Then right before he died he said Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

      His body was laid in a sepulcher (grave) Luke 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulcher, and how his body was laid.

      Now, we know that Jesus being is trichotomous in nature (1 Thess 5:23- body, soul and spirit and that spirit and soul can be divided Heb 4:12 and that the body without the spirit is dead James 2:26)

      Jesus, when he died on the cross his body went to the grave, his spirit returned to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7) and his soul went to hell. Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Also see the fulfillment of this as clarified by Peter in Acts 2:27-31 and by Paul in Acts 13:35.

      How do we reconcile the fact that Christ’s soul is spoken of as being in hell and yet Christ said on the cross he would be in paradise?

      “HELL” is composed of two compartments. The burning and tormenting part and the part with Abraham and the angels and water and comfort.

      Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom….Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

      In the OT times, prior to the resurrection, everyone went to “HELL” . Which is why the JW’s want to go to the OT to prove their doctrine. But what they fail to explain is the “hell” (what they interpret as the “grave”) had two compartments with a great gulf fixed between.

      The thief on the cross who asked to be remembered was told he and Christ would be in paradise THAT day. And they were. Christ’s soul went to “HELL” but he was in the paradise portion of “HELL”. NOT the burning side. The only way you could claim that Christ was in the burning side of hell is to call the burning side “paradise”.

      NO ONE prior to the resurrection of Christ went to heaven upon death. Christ when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive (eph 4:8-10) and brought them and paradise up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

      Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

      Christ had to be the firstborn from the dead and the first to be raised up to heaven. Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Also 1 Cor 15:20-23

      No one went to heaven until Christ rose from the dead and ascended. The OT saints were in paradise waiting for the redemption to be completed.

      Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

      Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

      Jeff Ayers

    • Jeff Ayers

      The Bible does not speak explicitly to the issue of “is Luke 16 and Abraham’s bosom a parable”
      the post from Ron mocking the literalist view is easily handled:

      He mocked as if it is absurd that angels would “carry their immaterial soul” to hades.
      First, the text says nothing of carrying immaterial souls. Rather it says “carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom”.

      Second, ye do err not knowing the scriptures and the frequent use of angels to perform similar tasks as what is described in Luke 16: Matthew 13:39 … the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.Rev 14:15-19

      Then Ron continued his rant about “immaterial” bodies having fingers and tongues in hell. But Christ made it clear that a person has a SOUL AND BODY in hell. (BTW on a similar but related topic Paul speaks of one having a “spiritual body” at the resurrection. )

      Lastly, Ron finishes out his trifecta mockery of literalism with (what he feels) is a death blow: “people in “heaven” will be able to communicate back and forth”. Abraham’s bosom is NOT heaven and the text does not say so. People speak back in forth from the dead (1 Sam 28:7-20) and from heaven Rev 6:9,10. Or maybe we should allegorize, spiritualize and consider parabolic the 3 times God spoke from heaven to earth Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

      Why is it so hard to believe what the text says and ONLY consider it parabolic if the text indicates or implies it to be so?

    • Chip

      I was thinking about this just yesterday after attending a good friends funeral at a Catholic Mass. I think the core issue isn’t if there is or isn’t a Purgatory, Shoel, or some other place or state prior to our presence with the Lord but rather, what brought us to the Lord. It is our Faith with is a gift from God our Father. It is by our Faith we are saved. The details of the many diverse opinions are not essential to our salvation. In the end, believers may all be present with the Lord and discover we all had ideas that were somewhat incorrect.

    • Jay Altieri

      Wow, sorry for being 2 years late. I came across this blog and have much to offer. I hope someone is still listening.
      In the original post CMP said that God CAN be in the presence of sin, he is of course correct (sort of) since God is omnipresent. Rev 14:10 tells us the wicked will be tormented in the presence of the Lamb. The point that Habakkuk is making and that traditional commentators point out is that God cannot be in FELLOWSHIP with sin. God cannot be in communion with sin. I believe that the author C Michael Patton is mistaken for thinking that OT saints immediately went to heaven. When Satan appears before God in Job 1, it is not in accord. It is as an accuser of God’s good friend Job. In Gen 3 when the Lord is calling for Adam and Eve, they hide. Fellowship has been broken.

      That broken fellowship would continue between God and humanity until the resurrection of Jesus Christ, because Jesus is the ONLY mediator between god and man (1Tim 2:5). For centuries God dwelt at an arm’s length from the very people that He greatly loved. Abraham and all of the patriarchs did not even know his personal name YHWH (Ex 6:3). Then from Moses onward God lived behind a curtain, His holiness was separate from Israel. The root meaning of the Hebrew word for holy is set apart or separate.

      Even though God loved the patriarchs and He fully forgave the OT saints of their sin, they were not yet redeemed. Having a promissory note for salvation (you will not leave my soul in sheol or the grave) is different than HAVING salvation. Today we posses spiritual Life as a current gift.

      I’m running out of allowable chacters so see next post for continuation…

    • bill

      I’ve been challenged recently in my belief that a christians soul goes immediately to heaven to be with Jesus upon death.(I do not judge any brother who does. I have held that belief most of my christian life) I am now leaning towards our spirit going to heaven, our body to the grave and our soul to paradise/abrahams bosom(a very good place and not the mythical purgatory to purify souls of their sin by fire) to wait for the day when we recieve our ressurection bodies, just like Jesus did. What has caused this turn around for me. It seems from the writings of the early church that this was the teaching ie Justin Martyr, Ireneus against heresies. If you taught that you went straight to heaven upon death you were considered a heretic! How different today! Perhaps the biggest verse to get me to reexamine my position is John 14 where Jesus says I will go away and prepare a place for you…many mansions.. come again for you that you maybe where I am. He is talking about the resurrection 1 thess 4. Read and re read and you will see that they are, we are with him in heaven after the resurrection. No one comes to the Father except through me. This is literally true, He physically returns, the dead in Christ are raised and those who are alive and remain are changed in the twinkling of an eye and are caught up in the clouds and are taken to heaven by Him to the Father…..and so shall we be with the Lord for ever. As a Christian as with all Christians my biggest desire is to be with the Lord so I would prefer to believe that I go to be with Him immediately upon death. If the scriptures teach that we will not be with him in heaven until the resurrection ie John 14 1 Thess 4 then it is what I have to believe. I AM NOT ADVOCATING SOUL SLEEP. I believe we are fully conscious in abrahams bosom/paradise. Perhaps one of the biggest questions we must all ask is why do the early church writings teach this and I mean early 100 to 20ad. Any thoughts

    • Jay Altieri

      When the HS indwells a believer today it is because of the new birth. A new creation comes into existence(2Cor 5:17), a spiritual man has been born. This new being is of the spirit(John 3:6) and that born of God spiritually is entirely without sin(1John 5:18). This resurrected spiritual nature, which only possessed by a true believer, is the part of our composition that partakes of the divine nature(2Pet1:4), at least until the resurrection when our whole body will be perfected.

      During the OT this was a promise, but they did not receive the things promised(Heb 11:13). Today, after the resurrection of Jesus, we have received the spiritual half of the promise. The spiritual nature that died in the garden is reborn. We have the Name of god to call upon Him personally as Abba. The veil in the HOH has been torn down. We have fellowship with God. The promise is still not complete, someday God will resurrect our dead bodies from the dust. But for our discussion, the distinction between an OT saint and a NT saint is not their status as forgiven (David’s sin had been-past tense- removed as far as the east is from the west Ps 103:12), but our status as redeemed.

      Paul says in Col 1:21-22 that we have been reconciled by the body of Christ and thorough His death we are presented to God as holy and blameless. Wow, Praise God! There can be no doubt that believers in the NT age have communion, fellowship and presence with God.However, OT saints did not yet have the “body of His flesh.” They were still behind the veil and not yet in His presence.

      So, I agree with conclusion that there is no such thing as AB, I disagree with the idea that OT saints immediately ascended to heaven upon death. My point is that it is true that God cannot be in fellowship with sin, so unredeemed OT saints cannot be in His presence because they have no covering atonement yet.

    • Jay Altieri

      Bill, above post you make a synthesis of AB and Paradise. What is your grounds for that? Paradise is used 3x in NT.

      (2 Cor 12:2-4) Paul clearly went to the 3rd heaven and equates it with paradise. Paradise is heaven of God’s abode.

      (Rev 2:7) is metaphor. We are not saved by eating fruit from some magical tree. Jesus IS the tree of life (Rev 22:14), if we eat Him then we shall have life (John 6:53).

      (Luke 23:43) Ancient mss do not have punctuation marks. Where does the comma go? Jesus himself did not go to heaven the same day that he died (John 20:17).
      I propose in my book that comma should be after today: Verily I say unto you today, (this day that I die for humanity, this day that I look like a criminal, this day that blood drips from the brow of God’s son); You shall (eventually after redemption is complete) be with me in Paradise.
      See my website http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com for more info.

    • bill

      From Strong numbers and the fact that Jesus said to the thief tonight you will be with me in paradise. It is just the way I read and understand it and am quite at ease if people such as yourself disagree. There are bigger battles out than whether the word paradise spoken by Jesus is or is not a synonmyn for abrahams bosom.


      3857 παραδεισος paradeisos par-ad’-i-sos

      of Oriental origin cf פרדס, 06508; TDNT-5:765,777; {See TDNT 591} n m

      AV-paradise 3; 3

      1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
      2) a garden, pleasure ground
      2a) grove, park

      3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
      4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
      5) heaven

    • bill

      Abrahams bosom is mentioned the writings of Josephus Discourse to the Greeks concerning hades.

      “For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.”

      Is this discourse of Josephus Holy Scripture? Obviously not. It does however give an insight into what the jews of his day believed. The jews of his day and Jesus’s day new that Abrahams bosom was and is the place where departed saints go to wait for the resurrection.

    • bill


      “‘But I do not say, indeed, that all souls die; for that were truly a piece of good fortune to the evil. What then? The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment. Thus some which have appeared worthy of God never die; but others are punished so long as God wills them to exist and to be punished.’


      “‘It makes no matter to me,’ said he, ‘whether Plato or Pythagoras, or, in short, any other man held such opinions. For the truth is so; and you would perceive it from this. The soul assuredly is or has life. If, then, it is life, it would cause something else, and not itself, to live, even as motion would move something else than itself. Now, that the soul lives, no one would deny. But if it lives, it lives not as being life, but as the partaker of life; but that which partakes of anything, is different from that of which it does partake. Now the soul partakes of life, since God wills it to live. Thus, then, it will not even partake [of life] when God does not will it to live. For to live is not its attribute, as it is God’s; but as a man does not live always, and the soul is not for ever conjoined with the body, since, whenever this harmony must be broken up, the soul leaves the body, and the man exists no longer; even so, whenever the soul must cease to exist, the spirit of life is removed from it, and there is no more soul, but it goes back to the place from whence it was taken.’

      The above quotes are from a christian who conversed with Justin before he became converted. Once again this is not scripture but it does give us an insight as to what the early church believed and it certainly was in step with what Jesus taught.

    • bill

      The most important evidence that Abrahams Bosom in not a myth is not that the jews of His day believed of such a place and it was not that the early christians believed that christians go to this place but rather that the place was known of and confirmed as a real place by our Lord himself!

      Luke 22

      22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
      23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    • Jay Altieri

      I think Bill is correct about some of the ante-nicene fathers. JustinM (150ad) definitely believed in post death consciousness for all people (1st Apology, ch18 and Horatory Address, ch35). However, he did not believe in ascension to heaven after death (Trypho,ch80). Although he never mentions Abraham’s Bosom by name, he appears to agree with your general idea of a holding tank for conscious souls before the resurrection.

      However, the early Christians were just guys with an opinion. Their opinion is no more binding then yours or mine. You can find early Christians with about any opinion for which you look.

      Your basic point I think it is true. A belief in consciousness immediately after death was a common and pervasive idea in antiquity. Although I would argue that it came from Platonism.

      The Pharisees themselves believed in an idea of AB, as you point out with Josephus, who was himself a Pharisee. This is important and why I think Jesus used the AB language. The images that Jesus used in this story, speaking to the Pharisees, were what the Pharisees themselves believed happened after death. He apparently used THEIR own story to pass along HIS own message. To tell them the message about money (see context of this conversation in Luke 16:14) , Jesus used one of the most effective methods—their own language. Christ used parabolically their very own beliefs about the afterlife to tell them that what matters is not riches but faith in God. He used their own framework, their own beliefs about afterlife, to add his own conclusion. He could have chosen another framework to say the same thing. But few will doubt that the most effective way to speak to somebody is using a language that is familiar to him. This is what Jesus did:he spoke to them using their picture of the afterlife as a framework, adding to it the message He wanted about wealth.

    • Jay Altieri

      Bottom line: I think that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable about money, it is not a real life description of the afterlife. If it were there exist several serious problems.

      1) This story was directed in conversation with the Pharisees. According to Mark 4:33, Jesus only spoke to the crowds in parable. He would then carefully explain everything to his disciples when they were alone in private. However, the only thing the Pharisees and general public received were these enigmatic parables. Why would Jesus be teaching the Pharisees doctrine about the afterlife? Did he give to them, not only the clearest, but the only passage of Scripture that details the concept of a two-compartmented hell between death and the resurrection? Is he unveiling to them this mysterious “truth,” which is never explained elsewhere to his disciples, and is even apparently contradicted by OT passages? Do you really think Jesus gave this revelation to the Pharisees, his archenemies? In Matt 7:6, Christ himself advises against such action. Again in Matt 13:11, Jesus is referring to the people and the Pharisees, to whom he has NOT revealed any secrets.

      2) Why is Abraham in charge of the Bosom? Abraham comforts the saved and negotiates and refutes the lost. Yet this is contradictory with 1Tim 2:5. Abraham is not commissioned to be God’s spokesman in the afterlife. Our comfort is with the Paraclete (John 14:16), not the human patriarch.

      There are other reasons, but these serve as the most compelling. This is detailed thoroughly in my book: Dead Soul Syndrome.

    • […] here as I argue against the myth of Abraham’s […]

    • Austin

      I haven’t studied this in depth, but the picture I’ve formed in my mind over the years is as follows.

      Sheol (or Hades) is the place of the dead. It is (or was) divided into the two parts – the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead. When OT saints died, they went to the place of the righteous dead in Sheol, which is not a place of torment at all. When non-believers died, they went to the place of the unrighteous dead in Sheol, which was a place of torment.

      Thus Sheol is one place divided into two chambers – the unrighteous dead, a place of torment, and the righteous dead, a place of peace. Heaven and Hell did not exist yet. Heaven was not yet open until Christ died, at which time the righteous dead were taken from the place of the righteous dead in Sheol and transferred to Heaven. Hell does not yet exist, so the place of the unrighteous dead in Sheol is still full and it’s where current unbelievers go when they die. After the judgment they will be transferred to Hell.

      • Tom M

        One point, and then one question: When Elijah was “taken” by God (fiery chariot), his apprentice Elisha watched him go – carried into heaven. With no death experienced, and still viewed by the living as alive, where do you think Elijah is right now?… There’s no body in the grave, and God did not destroy him.

        I’d be interested to read your biblical support for your answer.

    • bill

      Austin: I used to think along your lines. I have had to change for some reasons, here are a couple. Jesus told the disciples that they would be with him when he comes to return to them John 14 1-3, Paul comforts the thessalonians about those who have died in Christ, not by saying they are now with him in heaven living in peace but by telling them that they will be raised from the dead first then those living will be translated…..and then we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thess 4. The real wake up call was that the early early early church 100 to 200 ad taught that believers do not go heaven upon death but to abrahams bosom to wait for the resurrection. Justin Matyr, Ireneaus against heresies. These letters are not holy scripture I know however they do seem in keeping with the above scripture I quoted.

    • Jay Altieri

      Austin, your idea of a 2 compartmented sheol is common. I will be short with only 1 question: which side do sheep attend? (Ps 49:14) KJV translated this as grave because they were in a quandary as to which side- the good side (Abraham’s bosom) or the bad side (hades)- that farmyard animals should go. Sorry if my tenor sounds sarcastic or rude, but by pointing out the ridiculous we can see the folly of a theory. Sheol does not mean a metaphysical place for the afterlife of the dead. It is a poetic word meaning the grave.

    • Austin


      So you’re saying you believe in Abraham’s Bosom or something akin to “soul sleep,” but don’t believe Heaven is currently open to believers? Heaven will only be opened at the Judgement? Is that what you’re saying?

    • Austin


      Certainly sheol means grave – and was used both poetically and literally to describe such. But it was used in a lot of ways in the OT, to describe the grave, to describe a place of punishment, to describe the general realm of the dead, symbolically or as a metaphor, and yes – also in descriptions of the righteous after death.

      In any case, the Bible says remarkably little about where the OT saints went when they died. I’m not dogmatic about it. It’s just the image that gradually and naturally formed in my mind as I read the Bible – all the different depictions consolidated into that picture.

      I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it’s wrong and it’s so far down on the list of things to be concerned about that I’m just writing about it for my own fun and edification.

    • bill

      Austin: No brother, I don’t believe in soul sleep. I believe exactly what Jesus says which is a soul is conscious and upon death either receives the temporal peace of abrahams bosom/paradise while waiting for the resurrection or the temporal punishment of hades awaiting judgement day to be raised and then cast into the lake of fire, both body and soul.

      Luke 16:22-26
      22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
      23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
      24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
      25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
      26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

      Jesus also makes it pretty clear that He has gone away to prepare a place for us and that some day he will return and come for us and then we will be with Him in heaven, not before.

      Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

      Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

      Jesus’s prayer to the Father is that those whom the Father has given Him, be with Him in Heaven. John 14:3 and 1 Thess 4:16-18 tell us when that is and it is not at death but after the resurrection.

    • Jay Altieri

      Austin, I’m glad to hear that you remain open minded and receptive to the Biblical voice. Although I am not aware of any verse that describes Sheol as a place of punishment as you say. What passage are you referring to, please assist?
      Sheol is used 65 times in Hebrew and is translated somewhat randomly based on the biases of the translator. They did not want to send Jacob to hell, so Gen 37:35 reads grave in KJV. But in Ps 9:17 the same KJV translators were all too eager to send the wicked to hell. Point being the translators were biased when they first read the text. That feeling, I believe has filtered down through the generations to me and you. I believe it is best to be consistent, read Sheol the same way throughout. Allow our minds to be momentarily cleared of all preconceptions. Remove all indoctrinated thoughts, and let the Bible speak for itself. When studying several passages about Sheol, we must compare them to each other and nothing else. Sheol is not described as a place of consciousness, whether torment or bliss. Rather it is a place of silence (Ps 31:17), darkness (Job 17:13), and no return (Job 7:9). It is a place of no memory (Ps 6:5), no work and no thoughts(Ecc 9:10). The Hebrew prophets understood the dead in Sheol to be weak and powerless, without thought or memory, without work or action. The citizens of Sheol sleep in unconsciousness. Consider these verses: Psalm 146:4 ; Ecc 9:5-6 ; Job 7:9 ; Job 7:21.
      This appears to exclude any possibility of Sheol being a place of consciousness. It is the grave. Not literally a rock hewn tomb or hole in the ground, for Jonah 2:2 went there when he died in the fish. it is poetically gravedom. The good, the bad and ugly have a common fate in death. My point is that either Sheol means the abode of departed dead spirits in the afterlife, or it means the grave. Picking its meaning on a verse-by-verse basis to accommodate one’s doctrine is not the proper approach.

      • C Michael Patton

        Old Testament personal eschatology is very undeveloped. I would be very careful of mining systematic theology from the emotional expressions full of musing from thoughts steaming from this deficient eschatology. Soul sleep does not seem to be taught in the OT, but maybe assumed. But I could give you a lot of examples of things that are assumed in the OT that are not true. The Bible is still true But underdeveloped eschatology is not. It’s best to Find such things in the New Testament. This is why it’s so important to have an interpretive paradigm that takes into account the differences between the Old Testament and the New Testament in the progress of Revelation.

        In other words soul sleep is not a very good theology and finds little support in the Bible. However I do not believe that it is heretical

    • Jay Altieri

      at the resurrection, we don’t go to heaven. We will have bodies and remain on earth. Having a physical body in a non-physical place is oxymoron and rather self-contradictory. If anyone goes to heaven, then that indicates an intermediate state. The verse you quoted John 14:3 does not have us going to heaven when Jesus returns. Notice it says Jesus will COME AGAIN. Another words Jesus comes here to earth to be with us.

    • Jay Altieri

      I partly believe in soul sleep. Before the Resur of Jesus (entire OT) everybody endured soul sleep. Righteous saint and wicked alike, see my post above about Sheol. Theologically the reason that this must happen is that Jesus Christ is the Firstborn from the dead. Nobody beats him to heaven, nobody has life without Him. Jesus paved the road to heaven. He is the pioneer of the afterlife. Click here for a deeper study: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/enoch_and_elijah.htm All people simply died. They rested in the grave and waited for the calling of God. That call came when Jesus rose. Immortality for the OT believers must follow AFTER the resurrection of Jesus.
      With the Resur, everything changed. Now the HS has reborn our spirit and we are alive in Christ. I do not accept soul sleep for NT believers (thats us). If we belong to Christ, then when our body dies, we are spiritually in heaven with Jesus during the intermediate period awaiting the resurrection.
      Unfortunately, the Res of Jesus does nothing to change the state of unbelievers. I do believe in soul sleep for the unsaved. They remain unconscious in the grave, without thoughts, actions, emotions, or ability. At the Gt Whitethrone the grave and sea will give up the dead for the Last Judgment. They will have a fair hearing, not a kangaroo court. It will be face to face-not in absentia (Deut 7:10, Ps50:21), with opportunity to rebut Father’s charge (Micah 6:1-3, Isa 43:26), and then upon the witness of 2-3 (Deut 19:15) (Son and Spirit, and perhaps Church) they will be condemned to Hell.
      It is against the Law to condemn and execute a criminal before he has stood before the judges. (Numbers 35:12 ff +Deut 19:17-19)
      Judgment is reserved till the 2nd resurrection of the lost. For this reason, a contemporary hell where sinners are punished before their judgment is unconstitutional. I just gave you the 5min synopsis of my whole book. If you want more click my name above and check me out.

    • bill

      Hi Jay, we will have to agree to disagree.

      In response to your first point.

      Having a physical body in a non physical place is not an oxymoron and is not contradictory. We have a great example of our Lord Jesus sitting at the right hand of God in a resurrected body.

      Lu 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

      This resurrected Jesus who hath flesh and bones ascended into heaven in front of his disciples.

      Ac 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

      Ac 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

      Stephen saw not the spirit of Christ standing on the right hand of God but a risen, resurrected glorified Christ.

      Ac 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

      Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

      May I say again that this resurrected Jesus said ‘ handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”

      We now move to other examples of “flesh and bone” that have been taken to heaven that did not see death.

      Ge 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

      2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

      and in the future we have the two witnesses tha

      A Christians citizenship is in heaven not earth.

      Php 3:20 For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

      Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together…

    • bill

      in heavenly places

      In the future we have yet an other example of flesh and bone ascending into heaven.

      Rev 11:11-12 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

      In response to your second point.

      ” Notice it says Jesus will COME AGAIN. Another words Jesus comes here to earth to be with us.”

      You completely neglect the words prior to it and to do so is to take it out of context to make it fit your view. The scripture clearly says

      John 14:In my Father’s house (ie heaven) are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go(our resurrected Lord went to heaven) to prepare a place for you.
      3 And if I go and prepare a place for you,(Jesus is preparing a place for us in heaven) I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am(in heaven), there ye may be also.

      Jay I believe your confusion is that you do not distinguish between the event of Jesus coming for His bride and the other event when He returns as Warrior Messiah(2 Thess 1:7-8 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:)
      to establish His millenial kingdom. If you do not distinguish between these two separate events then you will not be able to reconcile the scriptures that I have quoted as they will be contrary to what you believe. You will either have to neglect them completely, twist or take them out of context (which you have already done with John 14) in order to fit with your view.

      Pr 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding

    • Jay Altieri

      Ok Bill, you are right, at least on the first half of your first point. I fully agree with you that Jesus physically and bodily rose from the grave. I fully agree with you that Jesus in body ascended to heaven and is still there at the right hand of the Father. So I stand corrected and should reword my original sentence from post #46: “Having a physical body of a non-divine being, in a non-physical place is oxymoron and rather self-contradictory.”
      I disagree about your observation of Enoch and Elijah, click the link in my post#47. I believe in the absolute priority of Jesus Christ. Nobody comes before him. Church tradition is wrong about their fate and does not understand the Semetic context of the word shamayim (Heb for heavens).
      As to the 2 Witnesses, and timing of the rapture, that opens a whooole nother can of worms. You have correctly inferred that I am not of a pre-tribulational rapture persuasion. I’m historic premil. I see the our resurrection occurring at the Parousia. The Witnesses go up when everybody goes up. But it is only a welcoming committee. Nobody goes to heaven. We meet and greet the returning Lord. If you are willing to listen to an opinion variant from your own, I’ve done a lot of study on this and am open to critique: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/rapture_intro.htm
      My comment about no bodies in heaven is from a post-trib platform. You are working from a pre-trib platform, so that you envision the resurrected church cloistered in heaven for about 7 yrs. Correct?
      Remember the original context of my post 46 was that if conscious personalities are seen in heaven, then that validates an intermediate state. I do believe in an intermediate state in heaven for believers only. What we are discussing now is whether physical bodies of people exist in the spirit world, celestial, non-temporal, intermediate heaven. I’m calling pre-trib oxymoronic. Only spirits of the saved post Pentecost make that journey to be WITH Jesus when He returns (1Thes…

    • Jay Altieri

      Michael I have a good word and a bad word for you. Upbeat first, you said: “This is why it’s so important to have an interpretive paradigm that takes into account the differences between the Old Testament and the New Testament in the progress of Revelation.”
      My point exactly. I could not have said it better, you have echoed my whole thesis. I believe in soul sleep for the OT believer before the resurrection of Jesus, but sentient existence in heaven after death for NT believer. As you said: there is a difference between the OT and the NT. Amen. The apex of cosmic history is the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is a turning point, a pivot point, a watershed. The resurrection changes everything.
      Now the bad word, I’ll be gentle: you said “soul sleep…finds little support in the Bible.” And that the OT contains “deficient eschatology.” Did you hover over those sheol verses from my previous post and read them? How can you read Ecc 9:10 and conclude that soul sleep is not taught explicitly in the Hebrew Scripture? To have no thought means no brain activity, even dreaming is thought. No brain activity whatsoever is flatline EEG, perhaps soul sleep is a misnomer. We should call it soul dead. Isa 26:14 no memory means you wouldn’t even know who you are-total amnesia and nobody would know you. How could Dives (Latin for Richman) ask for a favor to his brothers if he had truly been in sheol? He wouldn’t even know that he had brothers. Unless as you propose the OT has deficient eschatology. Did the HS make a goof when he was inspiring David to write Psalms and Qoholeth to scribe his wisdom of vanities?
      I agree with progressive revelation. I hope that is what you were trying to say. God reveals tidbits at a time. Like the tip of an iceberg. When you get to the end of it, the big picture is totally different than what you had imagined in the beginning. But that original tip is still there and still relevant and still true…

    • Jay Altieri

      … (continued from above) Muslims and Mormons believe in supercessionary revelation. As God continues to reveal Himself the most recent revelation is dominant and all other past revelations become void if and when conflict exists. This is a clean incontrovertible excuse to explain discrepancies between Bible and Quran. Quran trumps the Bible. Unfortunately, there do exist some Christians that use this hermeneutic between OT and NT. Most believers reject it based on Heb 13:8.
      Whatever is said in Ecc 9:10 is absolutely true at that point in time (perhaps not literally-we must allow for hyperbole and figure of speech). ‘At that point in time’ is an important qualifier. For instance Gen 2:15 obviously that situation did not last real long. There was a point in time when Adam was supposed to keep a garden. Stuff changes. However there is not any newer more important revelation that retroactively unsays what at an earlier time had been true. Ecc 9:10 is not deficient eschatology. It displays that before the resurrection of Jesus death and non existence was the fate of mankind.

    • Jay Altieri

      Michael, I’ll take your advice. You asked for NT verses with a similar teaching of a dead soul before Christ and a living soul after Christ.
      Eph 2:1, Eph 2:5 and Col 2:13 Paul repeats this 3 times. I think it might be important. Notice you had been dead, past tense, but now the believer is alive. They were not bodily dead. Before their conversion, their heart pumped and their brain was thinking. They were spiritually dead. We call it the soul, the immaterial aspect of man. All humans had been dead ever since that fateful day in Eden.
      Why were they dead? Because Rom 6:23 It does not say that the wages of sin is separation from God or life in hell. Death according to Webster is non- sentience, non responsive, no thinking, no knowledge, no action, no emotion. The dead know nothing, but I’m not quoting at your request OT passages here.
      Gloriously, stuff changes. 2 Cor 5:17 what is created when an person comes into Christ? I propose, it is a new soul.
      John 6:63 GIVES life means that before the gifting, life was not there. What is the absence of life? Ask any dictionary –that answer is death.
      1John 5:11-13 Notice the Greek verbs are present active tense. We HAVE life now. This is not a future promise. It is today for us that have the Son.
      If the soul had previously to Christ been dead, truly ontologically dead, then all of those OT verses are perfectly correct at their face value. Jesus was the firstfruits of resurrection, the very first to conquer death. But he is not the last. The very kernel of the gospel message is that LIFE is available by Jesus. Yes it means bodily physical eternal life in the resurrection per Randy Alcorn and NT Wright. But it also means Soulful life now. This means that during the intermediate period (before the resurrection) dead Christians go to heaven.

      • C Michael Patton

        Jay, I think you are defining death according to a dictionary definition rather than according to the theological definition, derived from the Bible.

        It is true death means the absence of life. However, the absence of life is defined theologically, I believe, by our relational separation from God. Therefore, as Revelation states, even those who have been resurrected and judged, will experience the second death which is a maternal death. There souls remain alive, even though they are still dead to God. This must mean spiritual death which is a relational breach between God and man. This is not an ontological death.

        And, the New Testament seems to be very clear about the absence of the body meaning that we are present with The Lord. If this is the case then there is a life without the body. This would be a relational life and a life of the soul. Therefore, I do not believe that there is ever an ontological extinction of the soul for once created people.

    • bill

      Jay as I said we will have to agree to disagree and I am only willing to listen to the holy scriptures.

      Your theory disregards a group of people seated in heaven PRIOR the the opening of the judgement seals. (Angels are never pictured seated before the throne in the scriptures, the church is) You disregard their song

      Rev 5 “9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

      According to your view these must be disembodied spirits. These disembodied spirits are pictured as conscious seated and singing. This naturally does not fit with your view of soul sleep therefore it has to be disregarded and not to be literally interpreted and yet when something in revelation does fit your view you will take it literally to back up your argument.

      Even if we put revelation in the too hard basket you still refuse to believe the plain text of Jesus coming for us so that we can be with him in heaven. You refuse to address the clear scriptures saying that our citizenship is in heaven and that we are to be seated in heavenly places.

      To finish Jay, I am “LOOKING for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Tit 2:13 that “….when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is” 1Jo 3:2 and that “Because THOU hast kept the word of my patience, I also will KEEP THEE from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try THEM that dwell upon the earth

      To those who want to be here for the worst period in earth’s history

      Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

    • bill

      anyway Jay we have digressed. This forum is about abrahams bosom. I apologise fellow posters.

      My last comment on the subject.


    • Jay Altieri

      …(continued) Figures of speech abound in the pages of the Bible, much more so than some Fundy types will admit.

      However changing the definition of words from what they originally meant to accommodate your opinion is cheating with the HGH. Death as separation was a medieval Catholic invention of Thomas Aquinas. He was smart enough to know that he had serious problems with the text, but stubborn enough to never admit Church tradition could be wrong.
      My opinion is that theological definitions are bogus. Words are words. They mean what they mean. If you discover that they blow your hypothesis, then like a good scientist you go back to the laboratory (in our case the Book) and find a new theory. You never cook the data to make it fit your pet theory.
      Are there other words in Scripture that use a “theological definition” instead of a normal useage? I find it disturbing that God would play semantic games by using words in a fashion that nobody understands. Personally, I think it is tantamount to lying. If death does not really mean death, then maybe eternal life has a “theological definition” that’s totally unexpected for a person with only basic language skills. I wonder if faith, repentance, and love have theological definitions contrary to a dictionary.
      What verses are you thinking about to redefine death away from its normal dictionary meaning into “relational separation from God”? Pls advise, this is of critical importance to support your hypothesis.
      Consider Isa 53:9 this is Messianic about Jesus. Notice the parallel between grave (Heb qeber- not sheol-this is the common word for burial place) and death. Did Jesus not ontologically die? If so, then we are not ontologically saved. Parallelism is a common feature of Heb literature signifying the synonymy of these words. Death+grave are metonyms. Does grave have a secret meaning too? …
      Sorry for cheating on the 2000character limit, you got me worked up (in a good way my friend)…

    • Jay Altieri

      The Hebrew verb ‘muth’ (translated as ‘to die’) and the related noun ‘maveth’ (translated as ‘death’) are used 1000x. It is an extremely common word. It commonly carries the standard dictionary meaning. NT Gk noun ‘thanatos’ and its related cognates (verbal ‘thanska’) also are used in the normal way. How do we know when to apply theological definitions and when to read it for what it says? Does God speak in theological code language? Do we need priests and philosophers to figure out these hidden theological definitions?

      I am proposing a standardly accepted historical grammatical hermeneutic, the words mean what it originally meant in the day of the audience. We have over 1000 examples. ONE THOUSAND EXAMPLES. I believe that the dictionary is correct. Webster has more theological insight than the philosophers. Death means the total and permanent cessation of all vital functions. When applied to a spirit it means the same thing. Go to a funeral home. Dead people don’t move, think, have action or emotion.

      Michael, To prove your point of anything other than normal language with special theological definitions to be selectively applied to certain passages, the onus of the burden of proof is on you.
      ‘Nough for now. Blessings for a Christ filled day. JAY

    • Jay Altieri

      Whoops- I messed up. this is supposed to be part 1 of 3.
      Ouch, let’s back up Michael. I think you’re a smart guy and I like your posts, but let’s start from the beginning, placate me please:
      We believe in plenary (from Latin plenus-filledup) inspiration of the original manuscripts. Another words: the text is true. Correct?
      We believe in divine preservation of the Scripture so that today the text we have is really really good. I’m not claiming some extreme right wing fundy dogma that there is zero typo errors (how many horses did Solomon have? 1 Kings 4:26 cf 2 Chron 9:25). But when it comes to important stuff, our text is accurate. Life and death is pretty dang important. You with me so far?
      We support an historical grammatical hermeneutic. A passage is best understood within the context, culture, history, and language of the author. This is standard among conservative scholars. Will you classify yourself as reasonably conservative? An HGH means that we attempt, like a good scientist, to remove outside influences, our personal and cultural bias. So that we read Scripture as it was originally intended to Israelite and Greco-Roman audiences.
      I believe that you likely agree with me so far. But I am concerned that this last point, removing our preconceived ideas, is where you fell off the wagon.
      The acceptation of vocabulary is part of the grammar. It is the structure of the language. The intent, message, and significance of a particular word meaning must be within the time and culture of the prophet. I am NOT advocating wooden literalism. The Hebrews were knee deep in hyperbole and symbolism. Matt. 23:24 but the Pharisees had eyesight vision, and nobody ever ate camels (they did literally stain gnats with gauze). John 1:29 Jesus is not really a farmyard lamb. It is a symbol of his gentleness and obedience. Rev 13:1 There will not literally be a big nasty dragonesque beast with 10 horns stomping on people in the last days. It is a symbol for an evil government.

    • Jay Altieri

      Bill, I agree that this is not time/place to dig into rapture. Some of your ideas are about the intermediate state which is directly relevant to the AB blog.
      Phil 3:20 Paul was a Roman citizen, but he hailed from Cilicia city of Tarsus. Paul did not live in Rome. Just because we are citizens of heaven does not mean that we live there. Man are made for earth (Ps 115:16). The resurrection will be bodily and physical. Here is the great part, per NT Wright (and me) heaven and earth will merge. They will synthetically combine, so that spiritual things will become plainly visible to the naked eye. We will see God (Mat 5:8).
      Eph 2:6 This seems to support my position. Remember I believe in soul sleep before the Resurrection and NO soul sleep after the resurrection. For me Res of JesusCh is key to life, even an afterlife. Note Greek verb is active aorist. It means we currently +continually arebeing made to sit WITH Jesus in heavenly places. Sitting is going on now and was in Paul’s day 55ad. This appears to support the idea that Christians go to heaven when they die. It appears that if this verse means present tense current reality as I suggest, then it contradicts your position of the soul’s conscious existence in a holding tank like AB (per JusMartr as you noted). It specifically says they are in heaven.
      As to the 24 elders, I’m not sure if they are men or angels, but I won’t quibble with your assumption that they are men. As you pointed out, Yes I would say that they are disembodied spirits of believers in heaven. This fits perfectly with my view of Death before Jesus’ advent and Life after Jesus’ advent. Remember, if you’ve been reading my posts- my theory breaks the curse the grave (soul sleep) at the Resurrection of Jesus Christ circa 33ad. The Revelation was written about 96ad, so this is well into the creation of afterLIFE for believers. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead (Col 1:18). Another words, He was the very first human to beat death.

    • bill

      Jay, in repsonse to

      “Phil 3:20 Paul was a Roman citizen, but he hailed from Cilicia city of Tarsus. Paul did not live in Rome. Just because we are citizens of heaven does not mean that we live there.”

      In isolation and when using human reasoning one could come to this conclusion. However when comparing scripture with scripture the following scriptures make it clear exactly what Paul is talking about.

      Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

      Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

      2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

      Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

      Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

      Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

      Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

      Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

      Rev 21:9….Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    • Jay Altieri

      Hi Bill, I do not understand your point. I agree that dead Christians are spiritually in heaven with Jesus. My point had been that resurrected physical bodies do not live in heaven (notwithstanding the temporary anomaly of a possible pre-trib rapture if you insist).
      I thought you believed that Christians were not in heaven per Justin Martyr? Pls clarify what we are talking about. Sorry, but you lost me at the heavenly place.

    • bill

      Hi Jay,

      Sorry I meant to add more but ran out of time and space. Hopefully I will unlose you. The point I am trying to make is that a christians calling is a heavenly one, full stop and not an earthly one. The christian/old testament saint is promised a heavenly jerusalem not an earthly jerusalem, The elect of Israel are promised that not us.

      The heavenly inherit the heavenly. The earthy must bear the image of the heavenly because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

      1 Cor 15 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
      48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
      49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
      50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

      Flesh and blood go into the millenial kingdom, and repopulate a decimated earth. Those in the millenial kingdom are blessed with long life but are still flesh and reproduce. Resurrected saints cannot reproduce as you are no doubt aware.


    • Jay Altieri

      Bill, have you read Randy Alcorn’s Heaven http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Randy-Alcorn/dp/0842379428/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1370960820&sr=1-1&keywords=randy+alcorn

      And Tom Wright’s Surprised by Hope http://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1370960876&sr=1-1&keywords=nt+wright+books

      Before we go any further, I think you would be well served with them as a background. Both books are available used on Amazon for about $7. The resurrection is bodily, just like Jesus, not exclusively spiritual in another worldly realm. It happens here on earth. In my opinion your dispensationalism has you looking at our reward dualistically. I believe that God’s people are one, there is no separation between church and Israel.

      Maybe we need direction from CMP or a webmaster, because perhaps our eternal home in the resurrection and the identity of Israel in the NT are too far off topic from intermediate state of AB to be appropriately posted here. If Michael, gives us the go ahead I am pleased to be unlosed.

    • bill

      Sorry I didn’t think we were getting off track. An earthly Israel living on an earthly kingdom is very relevant as it is something clearly promised throughout the old testament and remember that one of your points against AB was that only intermediate saints can be in heaven. I have endeavoured to show that this is not correct by showing the heavenly blessing promised to the church and the earthly promises to Israel.

      As to my belief of a literal Israel and their promises blessings, I believe because

      2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

      2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

      Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

      This includes the old testament promises to Israel

      and last but not least because our LORD said that scripture cannot be broken

      Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

      God Bless

    • patrick

      Luk.16, AB, is not a parable. No hidden meanings, but is plain. Parable is pushed because the implications otherwise lead to discussions about soul destinations after death, such are here being discussed. We must strive for unity under such conditions, but NOT compromise the Word. Souls go down whether righteous, or unrighteous (except for martys, which go up. Righteous go to AB/Paradise (Eze.’s trees of Eden went down to the depths of the earth). Paradise. All NT refs to Paradise confirm that it is AB – even 2Cor.12 (Paul briefly boasts of visionS in this passage, not vision; the conjunction AND between the 3rd heaven and Paradise, plus the repetitive phrase “whether in the body or out …God knows”, all support two separate (and very brief) accounts of visionS he received – one “up” (3rd heaven), and the other, in contrast, “down” (Paradise). The phrase “caught up”, used twice, has no given direction in the Greek, but means “seized”. Bottom line: Adam was made perfect, but was untested. Adam was ignorant of evil, so God counselled him against it. God tested Adam. Adam failed. Adam died in sin. … Christ died. Through faith in the coming Savior (Gen.3) Adam will rise again to be tested (in other words, God didn’t say, “Oh well” at Adam’s transgression, but means to take him right back to it under enlightened conditions made possible by Christ’s provision). Adam will be dead to sin, filled with the Spirit, and know good & evil. If he abides in the Spirit he will be saved. If not, he will be found in antichrist’s camp at the Lord’s 2nd coming. Salvation, which is life from the dead, is free & irrevocable. The Great Tribulation Period (42 mos., starting with trump 7) is the judgment. We must walk in the Spirit. Christ will not die a second time for sins. The souls of martyrs go to heaven, for they require no further testing (they gave their all like Christ). These and angels are the saints coming with Christ. In the mean time, righteous souls…

    • patrick

      require a place of rest until confirmation into heaven. This place is Paradise – AB.

    • Jay Altieri

      the conjunction “and” is not used within Hebrew literature (Paul was a Pharisee of Benjamin) to conjoin two separate disparate things. That is 20th century usage of the conjunction. In the Bible “and” is used for synonymy and parallelism.
      Ps 119:105 this is repetition for emphasis, not giving a bullet list of characteristics
      Isa 9:6 were two separate messianic babies born?
      Phil 2:7-8 notice the and at beginning of verse 8. Did Jesus come twice? First time born in the likeness of men AND then again in human form?
      There are hundreds of examples of this form of Hebraic parallelism.

      Point being and use of “and” in 2 Cor 12:2-3 between paradise and third heaven, does not signify an upward AND secondly a downward trip. On the contrary, it is evidence that paradise is identical with the third heaven. They are the same place.

      Rev 2:7 is metaphor. We are not saved by eating fruit from some magical tree. Jesus IS the tree of life (Rev 22:14), if we eat Him then we shall have life (John 6:53). Jesus is currently at the right hand of God, in the 3rd heaven=paradise. This is why Rev 2:7 said that tree was in paradise. Jesus=Tree of Life.
      Do you propose that Jesus AND the tree of Life are in protestant purgatory?

      What is your basis for granting martyrs immediate access to heaven, but other “lesser” Christians must “be confirmed into heaven”?
      Jesus said that anyone who thinks about adultery or murder has already committed them in their heart (Mat 5:28, Mat 5:21-22).
      So, if I think about being a martyr, does that count to get me into the presence of my Lord and bypass purgatory?
      You know the word “martyr” actually means witness, so you may have more folks in heaven then accounted for by this theory.

    • patrick

      Thanks for your comments.
      Not clear about some of your statements regarding the word AND used in 2Cor.12:3 (Gk. kai – used 1000s of Xs in the NT) between third heaven and Paradise. Are you implying it is not a part of the original text? It seems you are saying that Paul, being Hebrew, would naturally improperly apply his Greek by using it as though it were Hebrew? See 2 Cor.11:9, where “kai” is used 4 xs. Seems proper to me. I don’t disagree with your treatment of OT references with regards to AND. The Greek word “kia” is also rendered “also” many times, which I believes lends to support my 2 seperate visionS interpretation. Please help me to better understand what you are saying about the use of “kai”.
      Tree of life: was in the midst of the garden of Eden. Eze.31 states the trees of Eden were taken to the depths of the earth in ancient times to a place of comfort. Rev.22:2 states the tree of life has twelve fruits. Please specify what these 12 are in terms of a t.o.l.=Christ interpretation. Eze.47:12 parallels Rev.22 with a startlingly similar description of trees along a river, bearing fruit every month, plus other parallels. Are these figurative visions? Isa.51:3 states that Tseon will be like Eden after Messiah’s returns (compare with Eze.36:35). I have not spoken of the tree of life. You brought that up. I do not believe the Scripture supports God as using magic. I have not stated anything about salvation being linked to the tree of life. Jesus is our salvation, which is life from the dead through His substitutionary sacrifice. Please do not add to my words. I believe the tree of life is a tree in the midst of the Paradise of God (Gen.2/Rev.2). I believe that Paradise is terrestrial (albeit subterranean now)based on every passage available. No record anywhere of it being heaven (or in heaven).
      I do not know what Protestant Purgatory is. Again, are you attempting to shift the conversation to more familiar grounds? TBC…

    • patrick

      Yeshua (Jesus) is Omni-present – a benefit of being eternal. David (Psa.139) states that God’s presence is both in heaven and sheol. This confirms the special terminologies used in the NT with regards to soul destinations after death (i.e., we are never specifically told “when you die your soul goes to heaven”, which would be a paramount doctrine to be assured numerous times if this were true). Abesent from the body, present with the Lord, etc.. is a strong indication that there are multiple possible locations a believer’s soul could be directed to. Heaven (for martyrs for the word of God and the testimony they held) OR Paradise in the depths of the earth (AB) – the topic of this thread. Yes, Yeshua’s presence is in AB, while at the same time He is seated at the right hand of the Father. Do you confirm Omni-presence is a divine attribute, or not? What does this mean to you? Yes, the tree of life is in AB per Eze.31. If you do not believe in a literal tree of life, then the argument is mute. We will differ in interpretations. I think you should believe though.
      I do not consider you, myself, or any believer a “lesser” believer just because they have not had the opportunity to die for the word of God – but many certainly have. Please don’t add to my words. Martyrs are there in heaven (under the altar of souls) not simply because they witnessed for God, but because they died for the word of God. What belongs under God’s altar? Ashes of the burnt offering. Anyone who has demonstrated a love for God to the point of death (I am speaking only within a Christian framework and not any other – reference Stephen’s death in Acts) requires no further demonstartion that he abides in God’s Spirit, which is what opens heaven to souls. I will let God decide who are His martyrs. The resurrection from AB (our salvation) will produce believers that are dead to sin (think about it), filled with the Holy Spirit (think about it), AND, know BOTH good and evil (think…

    • Jay Altieri

      Hi Patrick, I agree the copulative conjunction “kai” is correctly part of the original text. The bible is NOT written in high classic Greek of the Golden age. It is written in colloquial Greek and contains many Hebraisms brought into it from Semitic languages. So I am claiming that Paul introduced well known Hebrew idiom to the Greek. You agreed with me for the OT usage of parallels. What we call the OT, was in Paul’s day just the Scripture. Scripture should always be interpreted by Scripture. Thus my idea that using OT parallels to rightly interpret NT parallels. I stand by my parallel interpretation of 2 Cor 12:2-3 wherein paradise=3rd heaven. I stand by my thought that the tree of life as used in the Rev is a symbol for Jesus.

      Note the difference in literary style between Eze 31+32 vrs Eze 40-48. Chapters 31+32 are poetry. See the white space at margins in your bible? Ezekiel was the founder in the bible of the apocalyptic poetry style. It is later used by Daniel and John of Patmos. Chapters 40-48 (about the restored temple) are not in poetic form. I think the restored temple section is more literal. Notice these 2 sections were written at totally different times Eze 31:1 11th year and Eze 40:1 25th year. They are 14years apart.
      I agree that Eze 40-48 are describing a literal millennial temple. I’m probably historic premil, so I have no qualms with a literal view of those chapters. Big river starts gushing from Zion, Dead Sea turns to fresh water, Arabah turns lush, etc. However, I do not think Rev 21-22 are literal. Revelation is a book of symbols. Rev 21:9 bride of Christ=new Jerusalem. Not literally a place in future. NJ is the church, it is sooo precious, so very expensive, that descriptions of gold and jewels hardly compare to the value of the NJ. God does not care about solid gold walls. He cares about people We, the church of redeemed saints are the precious city that the Messiah died for to possess

    • Jay Altieri

      Its bad exegesis to use Eze 31, a graphic poem about a pompous king being debased and killed, to prove literal trees are in the underworld. That is a little bit too science fiction for me. How do trees get sunlight in the underworld? Are there animals there too to eat berries and fertilize roots with dung? Is there oxygen in the underworld? If paradise is literally in a sequestered subterranean local, do you think the earth is hollow? I view Eze 31 as poetic analogy between a king and a tree, nothing literal.

      Eze31:3 big tree= Assyria. This is analogy. King of Assyria was a man, not a tree. But like a big tree his kingdom provided food+shelter for many small nations. Eze 31:4 God provided the water, all gifts come from God. Assyria grew very powerful. Eze 31:8-9 the hyperbole gets deep now. Taking this literal is a mistake, this is Hebrew apocalyptic poetry. Assyria was so beautiful and powerful, had been the standard of government of 1000yrs, that it was inconceivable that it would collapse. Like a mighty redwood tree in Calif, she was huge. Eze 31:8 Even the trees of Eden were jealous of his comeliness and treehood. Major hyperbole, trees do not have emotions like jealousy. Assyria was a highly advanced nation they excelled in engineering, military technology +astronomy. In context of the analogy “trees of Eden” probably refers to other nations of the world who were jealous of Assyria’s wealth and power.
      Eze 31:10 the tree in analogy did not really reach to the clouds and trees do not literally have a heart.
      Eze 31:11-12 describes the events of 605bc at battle of Carchemish. Assyria was defeated by Babylon. This was earth shattering (not really I’m using more hyperbole).
      Eze 31:14 says that Assyria and her kings died. Ezekiel is giving a warning to Egypt that you too will fall due to your pride and pomp. They will all go to the grave.
      Eze 31:15-17 Not ontologically about underworld. It speaks of death in poetic language.

    • Jay Altieri

      Here’s my view of Rev 21:9-22:5. The chapter break is bad. This is one continuous vision with a tour guide angel. The stated purpose of the vision in Rev 21:9 to see bride. Physical cites are not the most precious thing in the universe, people are.
      Rev 22:1 same angel, same vision. Water of life=Jesus (John 4:10-14). Salvation is by Jesus, not by ingesting magical water. Hint: whenever you see an inanimate substance (water, tree, rock, gate, etc) being a Lifegiver, then it is a Christogram. Remember this is apocalyptic poetry written 1000’s of years ago. Do not interpret as a 21st century American.
      Rev 22:2 Street=Jesus, River=Jesus, Water=Jesus, Tree=Jesus, Fruit=Jesus, Leaves=Jesus. Please acknowledge this is a Christ centered interpretation. I know it sounds weird , how could Jesus be all that stuff at the same time? Symbolism. He is not really, ontologically any of that stuff. He is a man. 12 fruit, 12 is symbolic number of completeness. Filled up with fruit. There were 12 tribes+12 apostles. 12 is the number of ALL God’s people.

      Since the whole vision of the NJ is about the Bride, perhaps these items are also viewing the church. Church +Jesus are bound very tightly. Think GkOrthodox doctrine of Theosis. We are becoming more and more like Him everyday. In the resurrection we will be just exactly like Him. Old married couples think alike, act alike, even look alike. We are becoming exactly like Jesus. Of course this is a resurrectional process, none of us has arrived yet. Point being fruit and leaves are also symbol of Church’s good works. Fruit is frequently a symbol of good works (Mat 7:16; John 15:8; Gal 5:22).
      Rev 22:3-4 no curse, this is after resurrection, hence full and final Theosis. God and Church are unified… cont next

    • Jay Altieri

      New Jerusalem vision continued…
      Rev 22:5 This is also not literal, symbolically to have no night means no darkness of sin (John 3:19-20). The literal sun will exist eternally. Ps 72:5; Ps 89:35-37; Jer 31:35-36. After creating sun +moon to rule day and night on day#4 night was called “good.” The resurrection will be a return to Edenic state, a redemption (buying back) of what we had (only better). If night was good, then night need not be destroyed with the curse of sin and death. Only metaphoric night as a hiding place of sinners will be destroyed, not literal night.

      Be careful not to confuse the new earth (a literal physical planet for eternity where we live in the resurrection) with the New Jerusalem (an allegory for the righteousness and preciousness of the Church).

      Rev 22:14 Tree and Gate, both are symbols of Jesus. Jesus is the door to the Church. John 10:7.
      Rev 22:15 Remember symbolism of this passage. Dogs are not evil animals, there will be dogs, wolves and other canine creatures in the New Earth (Isa 11:6). Dog=evil men. Dogs will NOT have eternal life, they are not part of the Bride. Dogs are outside, once you understand the rich Semitic symbolism then this makes perfect sense. New Jerusalem city = church. No evil doggy men in the church.

      My bottom line point is that Rev 21+22 New Jerusalem is not literal. This is a symbol for the bride of Christ. It is an urban analogy, likening a city to a people.

    • Jay Altieri

      No Jesus is not omnipresent. God is omnipresent, but Jesus is a man. People are not omnipresent. Look around you. Do you see Jesus? He is with you in spirit by the omnipresence of the Holy Ghost (God), but Jesus is not literally omnipresent. Yes, Jesus is God and God is Trinity. Father/Son/HG, but we cannot split them apart. They exist as God in a singularity. You are correct that God is in the grave-sheol Ps 139:8. Notice Ps 139:1 directs the praise toward YHWH. YHWH is in the grave, not Jesus. Let’s not get too ruffled over the precise Christological identity of YHWH vrs Jesus. Jesus is YHWH incarnate. He is the bodily form of God. But as such Jesus gave up, put aside, some of the glory of the Godhead (Phil 2:7). At Chalcedon circa 430ad the early church fathers were talking past each other on this Christological identity and a major rift separated the church. Let’s not make the same mistake. What I am saying is that Jesus the physical bodily resurrected man is not omnipresent. Human are saved by the physical bodily resurrected man, who became the 2nd Adam for us. Without the physical resurrection of Jesus our faith is vain (1Cor 15:14). Thus, Jesus the bodily resurrected man= Tree of Life. They are not in the underworld.

      Martyrs only in heaven and all others consigned to AB until the resurrection is reminiscent of Islamic doctrine. Please check your sources about the origin of that one. I think you are setting up dual classes of believers. Those who perform and those who didn’t perform. Salvation is by grace alone. A martyr is not deserving of life, he is saved purely by God’s magnificent generosity. Your idea seems to undermine the gospel message of free grace to claim that attendance in heaven with Jesus is by good works.
      Consider John 12:26 all servants will be with Jesus. John 17:24 non-martyrs are equally “given by the Father.”

    • patrick

      Thanks for your responses. It is always good to hear another believer’s points of view on “things Scripture”.
      After having read through the Scriptures multiple times, and for the last 10 years or so having focused on many topical studies, I have thought a lot about what God’s word says, as I am sure you have also. As for me, from the beginning of my walk onwards, I have attempted to take God’s word literally, unless the passage makes it plain that something other than literal is intended. This has worked very well for me and I do not believe God is upset with me for having taken Him at His word, giving Him the benefit of the doubt that He is the greatest of Communicators, able to reach any man who is willing to believe and abide in His word. In contrast, you seem to employ an extesive interpretive filtering process (Hebrew idioms, symbolisms, apocalyptic poetical figuratisms, etc…), which has, to a large degree, prevented us from actually getting into the Scriptures. Let’s think about that for a moment. God wrote a complex book (I think we can both agree on that), and He wrote it, in part, with the intent that His word should be discussed between brothers. I do not believe He intends for us to banter over syntax, which adds nothing from the Spirit, but rather He intends that we should share what He has laid on our hearts. It is good that you are informing me that this is your methodology, and I am sure that you are not alone in that line of reasoning, but I have personally not found it necessary to apply such regimented rules of interpretation. I simply try to understand what God is saying within the context of verse, passage, chapter, book.
      It also occurs to me that such a sophisticated approach might actually serve as an open door to censure God’s words. If a passage does not match a preconception, then such a filter could be employed to render it in other ways. I find the literalist approach is least likely to make such mistakes.

    • bill


      I agree with you in that it is best to interpret the scriptures literally unless it is clear that the passage, the chapter, and the rest of the Holy book says otherwise. Scripture must be used to interpret scripture and scripture upon scripture upon scripture upon scripture to establish a doctrine and not human argument.


    • patrick

      Jay, you said, “That is a little bit too science fiction for me.” I do not pretend to understand how things work in the abode of the dead, or in heaven for that matter. Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard…, but God has revealed to us that the trees of Eden are accounted for in the depths of the earth. I need to believe God is not lying to me about that, or that I should dismiss what He has said, otherwise I might not trust (or believe) Him in other things He has said, like Jonah got swallowed by a big fish, or it rained for forty days and covered all the mountains, or the Red Sea was parted and people walked through, or that God came in the flesh to die for me and you.
      There was no need for God to have added that bit about Eden going down into the account about Pharaoh being likened unto a mighty cedar. You have to admit that it is highly coincidental that Eden is said to have gone down to sheol, that Messiah was with the thief that day in Paradise, and that AB is the Jewish resting place (in Sheol) for departed souls of saints. Are you hearing that? It is a much bigger picture than you are giving it credit for, and I believe you might be missing it on account of your sytax filters.
      The Assyria being spoken of would have to be a pre-Deluge nation, according to Eze’s context. It looks as though the post-Deluge Assyria we know about was named after the former. THe pre-deluge world was an altogether different kind of world that has vanished. We have no acces to how that would functioned. The fact that the cedar reached up into the clouds is a clue for us about that world. I believe God speaks the truth all the time.
      Trees are mentioned repeatedly as kings and kingdoms. This is well established in the Scriptures, such as in this passage “so-and-so is like a tree”. Analogy defined.
      What is said in Eze’s tree passage is perfectly consistent with all other doctrines about sheol

    • patrick

      Hi Bill,
      Glad we agree! I have read some of the stuff that you and Jay have discussed. I think I’m a mutt mixture between you two. I think Jay believes that the Church and Israel are one (two into one, not replacement theology), whereas I seem to recall that you are starting to believe that believers souls go down to sheol. I believe what the church in general is missing is that much (if not all) of what Messiah has said pertains to either 1) His crucifixion, or 2) the resurrection of the dead. AB makes the resurrection to the feet on the earth in the Tribulation, where believers will be confirmed by God as being able to walk in the Spirit. This is not a works-based doctrine, but the simple reality of showing, “Yeah, I heard what you said God, and I have believed You at Your word. Because I believed I received, and because I received I now walk. Enock walked – and God took him.”

    • bill


      Yeah it is not the first thing I have changed my mind on. You know how it is you read a passage twenty times over the years and on the twenty first time something entirely new will come to understanding. When I first became a christian I was an arminian and would probably come under the tag of replacement theology. Many years of study now has me a limited atonement christian that believes in a literal israel receiving the old testament promises including temple worship during the millenium. My view always has been remain teachable and to put things to the test. As you read my latest is thinking that the souls of christians dont go to heaven. Im not a hundred percent sure that my new view is right . My prayer is that if I am wrong that the Lord would lead me to the correct view.
      God Bless

    • patrick

      That’s a very encouraging report you gave. Keep going brother! God takes us from wherever we are and grows us with His word. Keep reading! That’s all God expects, along with trust in Him.
      You might want to consider whether the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other in terms of your understanding about the relationship between Israel and the Church. I believe your view has improved immensely from that of replacement theology, but you might still be missing something very wonderful where you are now with your belief. I have a lot to say about this, but will try to remain on track with the thread.
      Romans states we (Gentiles) are being grafted into the olive tree that is Israel. Messiah is the root of that tree. That speaks of unity between the two. Ephesians is another good source to verify this.
      Romans also states that the whole creation groans in anticipation of the revealling of the sons of God (the Church), which I interpret to mean the resurrection from the dead (out of AB) to the feet, standing on the earth. One of the reasons for this earthy resurrection (aren’t all resurrections in the Scriptures earthly for goodness sakes!) is to repay the Jews for the blessing that was temporarily passed on to us. They largely rejected Messiah, and the gospel turned to Gentiles. Israel’s loss was our gain, but God wants the favor returned. With the resurrection of the righteous dead comes a huge ministry. The world will have been shaken by tribulations and many will be ready to hear the gospel message preached from our lips, particularly the Jews.
      If AB is the place from which Israel and the Church rises, then I personally believe soul sleep (which is referenced several times in the NT) is the most logical conclusion in terms of our state. We will be dead. We will be in Messiah. Time ceases. Eden (AB) is a place of comfort, not torment, not some kind of purgatory. We rest. We close our eyes in dying and you open them again a moment …

    • patrick

      later, despite any duration of time gone by.
      Please understand, this state of consciousness part, of course, is only conjecture on my part, but the Scriptures do tell us that the time is short until the Lord returns, and that He is coming at an hour we do not expect Him.
      I am not a pre-tribber because there are too many conflicting passages with the notion. Much of that doctrine forces the view that Messiah is coming back to regenerate our dead bodies, with our souls in tow behind Him, whereas I believe the emphasis is not on Him coming back for bodies alone, but to wake up our souls and form them into a unified army under the Lord of hosts. He is coming back for the Body (of souls) who are believers in Him. He will raise us to our feet and be a cloud of protection over us, guiding us just as in the Exodus. Jeremiah makes reference that the day is coming when they will no longer say, “The Lord who brought them out of Egypt,” but will say “The Lord who brought them out of the northern territory.” The seven churches of the Revelation would be considered north of Jerusalem. We don’t go up to heaven and then return to earth. We die and our soul rests in AB until the upward call is heard. In the tribulation, the fields will be white for harvest. Pray that the Lord sends many laborers into that field.

    • Jay Altieri

      I commend a literal approach most of the time. However, figure of speech is a common feature of language. We use it a lot in English too. When reading Bible we tend to pay very close attention to every word, as it is the word of God himself. This is a good thing. However, occasionally we forget the rhetorical device called metaphor. Scripture is not always written literally. I think it is quite juvenile, like a 6yr old, to believe that everything is wooden literal.

      Literalizing is usually an excellent hermeneutic and a worthy trait. However, you get into trouble when literalizing Hebraic apocalyptic literature (esp Ezek,Dan,Rev). The apocalyptic style is highly symbolic. Rev is complete with a 7 headed dragon, Jesus as a lamb, and 2 witnesses described as candlesticks and olive trees. None of that is literal. Its symbolic. Symbols describe something using the imagery of another thing. Eze’s cedar tree is specifically referenced as an allegory in Eze 31:3 “Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon.” The contrast with Eden is set up in Eze 31:8-9 when the trees of the garden are anthropomorphized to be jealous. Please check your literalism at the door, plants are not emotional.

      Eze 31:15 is still in context of the analogy set up in v3. The cedar goes to the grave. To claim that the figure of speech has ceased and now we are really talking about sending plants to the underworld is a contradiction of the gospel. The gospel message is that God became human in order to save humans. He became a man in order to save men. He died in order to rescue the dead. To extend soteriological options to the plant world is beyond the pale of Christianity, and frankly something I have never before encountered. If plants go to AB, then plants are awaiting a resurrection. If plants await a resurrection, then Jesus died for plants.

    • Jay Altieri

      Assyria means Assyria, not some mythic antediluvian civilization. Now you’re the one being non-literal. Although God frequently uses figure of speech that any teenager can recognize, He does not talk over people’s head in secret code language. I am a firm believer AGAINST Gnostic interpretations. Gnostic means that you must have special clandestine knowledge to properly interpret. This chapter is written by an Israelite prophet in the 6thcentury BC (Ezekiel) speaking to Pharaoh of Egypt. It is a reprimand, a dirge, a warning that because of his pride for his mighty kingdom on the Nile, he will die anyway and his empire will fall just like the great superpower Assyria had fallen at Carchemish. Neo-Assyria of Nineveh was very recent world history that everyone would be aware of at the time of this writing. What you are interpreting would be secret gnostic history that require “clues” to unlock. Absolutely nobody would understand. It would make this message to Pharaoh meaningless and over his head. It is no longer truly about a prideful king, it is about plants in the underworld and collapse of pre-flood world system of which zero history is recorded.

      My point being that the passage must first and foremost apply to the man to whom it is addressed. Of course, the words also apply to proud rulers of all ages, but it is originally a word to Pharaoh. It must be intelligible to Pharaoh. It must have meaning for Pharaoh. Its much more probable that Assyria means Assyria of the 7thcent bc.
      Btw, the word translated as “Assyria” is the Heb word “ashur.” It is the name of the 2nd son of Shem (Gen 10:22). He was born after the flood. Assyria was founded after the flood (Gen 10:11).

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick said “You have to admit that it is highly coincidental that Eden is said to have gone down to sheol.”
      It is not at all strange, I believe Eden died. Of course a state like Eden is not a sentient being so it cant experience biological death. I mean that figuratively for cessation of existence. Similarly John says in Rev 20:14 death+hades are thrown in LOF. They cant be tormented, since they are not beings. The LOF is a place of utter total and complete destruction.

      When man sinned Eden died. The world collapsed and caved in around him. (Not literally, that is a figure of speech). Instead of living in a garden he must toil and suffer. Paradise was lost. Eden was dead. The tree of life was lost. The opportunity to live forever vanished. Death reigns supreme.

      “Sheol” is used 65x in bible. It is used in the poetic books of Job, Ps, Prov+ Eccles most commonly. If you read those fairly literally with parallel equivalency of sheol=pit=grave, then it appears that “sheol” means the grave. Not a metaphysical location for dead people who are alive.
      The concept of life after death, another words consciousness after death, only became a possibility with the resurrection of Jesus.
      Jesus is the “firstborn from the dead” (Col 1:18). He is the “archegon” of life (Acts 3:15). That Greek word means originator, pioneer, author, inventor. Life means sentience existence. Thinking is a key feature of life. If you can think then you are alive. I reject sheol/AB as an OT location for conscious dead people, because it contradicts the gospel that JESUS is prime.
      Try reading this one: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/enoch_and_elijah.htm
      Before the resurrection of Messiah, all people simply died. Even after the Res if you don’t belong to Him, you will remain dead–ie:without thought, work or knowledge(Ecc 9:10). This fundamentally precludes any consciousness in sheol. Do you believe that literally?

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, maybe I’m confused on your position. You most recently said that you agree with soul sleep. Everyone awaits the resurrection. Time ceases. No torment, no purgatory.

      But previously in post #67, you said that Luke 16 is not a parable, you thought it is a literal real life account. In Lk16 hades is described as a place of torment. Richman and Abraham are not locked in time. They are talking and making decisions.
      Time is a measure of change. For time to cease, means that you are frozen, nothing changes. Thinking is a process and it requires time. So in Lk 16 AB/hades time is running in the story.
      Of course, if you’ve read my previous posts, I think it is a parable about money (see post #37).
      Do you think the dead non-martyr saints are conscious or not? How do you feel about the lost? Conscious or dead?

      I agree with Patrick as to rapture timing. There is a full length study about that on my website. And you have correctly understood my understanding of Israel and Church. I subscribe to Olive Tree theology. The Church has been grafted in so that we are Israel, but never a total replacement.

      Here is something else you said confused me: “I am not a pre-tribber … Messiah is coming back to regenerate our dead bodies, with our souls in tow behind Him.” Messiah is coming from heaven right? You reference souls in tow from 1Thes 3:13 and 1 Thes 4:14. The dead come WITH him. But you don’t think the dead are in heaven? Does Jesus make a pit stop in AB before appearing at the Parousia to pick up the dead souls in tow? Before you try to answer that, consider Heb 1:13 which is quoting from Ps 110:1. Jesus is currently at the right hand of God’s throne. The Throne is in heaven, not AB. Do you still contend that Jesus the human man is omnipresent? Is God’s throne omnipresent too? (that’s very non literal.) I think the best interpretation is that the dead souls of believers are in heaven with Jesus awaiting the last trump muster call for resurrection.

    • bill

      Isnt is funny brother that your not a pre tribber because there are too many conflicting passages am I am a pretribber because for me it is the only scenario that ties everything together literally. When I read the book of revelation there is no doubt for me it is a book of judgement with God pouring out His wrath on an unbelieving world. I find it hard to reconcile that God would provide a place of refuge for Israel during this time of His burning wrath as is indicated in

      Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

      Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

      and not provide a haven for His elect church.

      I personally believe believe Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’S anger.

      which ties in with Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

      I know you’ll be aware of these verses and there are many more the seem only to back it up for me. If I am wrong I will be here for the worst period ever in earths history and am in agreement with the Lord when He says

      Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

      but rather

      Php 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

      Take care Patrick and remain…

    • bill


    • Jay Altieri

      I think we should all fully agree with Bill’s recent posts. We should all remain teachable. Each of us can learn new stuff from the other guy. None of us has it all figured out. Especially on these eschatological matters of the intermediate state. We each currently think what we think because of the study and learning and other life influences that we’ve had up till this point. Hopefully we all remain humble enough to change our minds when confronted with scriptural data conflicting with our ideas. I too changed all this stuff about 10yrs ago during a study of the resurrection and eternal life. I decided that nobody has life without Jesus. Call it fruity, it is definitely contra tradition, but I’m yet to discover how its unbiblical. The ramifications are schema changing. When I truly accepted Jesus alone as prime factor of life, then no one before the Res had afterlife, because afterlife is a type of life-not bodily but still life. This is soul sleep(or more accurately soul dead). The difference between my view and yall’s idea of AB, is that I see the soul to be unconscious, w/o sentience, w/o life. From what I glean, I think Bill believes in a dull conscious existence in AB. Patrick’s idea might be closer, but he is distinguishing heavenly life vrs soul sleep based on martyrdom of the individual, instead of the resurrection of Jesus.
      My platform pivots, rotates around the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the exciting part: after the resurrection of Jesus everything changed. This is glorious, because the soul of believers I think per my studies , is quickened. We are reborn spiritually. We once were dead, but now we live. That is not just emotional hype. I’m taking it literally in the spiritman.
      However, excited as I may get over this, I realize that I don’t have all the answers. If someone can show me that life doesn’t mean sentient consciousness and death doesn’t mean extinguishing life (as CMP said in post57) I’m still open to learning.

    • Jay Altieri

      Bill, I fully agree that God will provide a place of refuge during the GTrib for the church. But I see the church as organically part of Israel, so when the woman is protected in the wilderness, it is the church being protected. National unsaved ethnic Israel will not receive God’s protection and favor until they receive Jesus Christ. People who blaspheme God by saying that Jesus is NOT the Christ have been cut off from the family of God. They are anathema [cursed-1Cor 16:22]. The word means dedicated for destruction.
      I think dispensationalism is making you see this dualistically. Church and Israel are one. Although much of ethnic Israel has been temporarily cut off. This is not replacement theology, as they will certainly be regrafted in the future. The woman in the wilderness is us.
      Try this link for protection during the tribulation: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/Rapture%2010.htm

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, you are motivating me to go back and reread Eze31 repeatedly. Thank you. More observations upon a close read:
      Eze 31:15 ‘deep’ is Heb word ‘tehowm.’ It means depths of the ocean or subterranean aquifers. God closed the aquifers over sheol. God held back the rivers of sheol and dammed up the waters. For me this is poetic, not literal. The grave is only about 6′ deep. No one is ever buried under the aquifers.
      But with a literal interpretation: are there rivers in sheol? Are these physical rivers or spiritual rivers? I’m trying not to be sarcastic, but the notion of rivers in the underworld sounds more like pagan myth (Odysseus crossing river Styx) then Bible.

      Eze 31:16 Notice the NATIONS quake-plural. In antediluvian period before tower Babel, there was only 1 single human nation-not plural (Gen 11:6).

      Did the trees of Eden physically go the AB? Or did the “soul” of the tree go the netherworld? Do trees have a soul? I guess if the trees are physically there then the rivers had better be physical too.

      I understand your pre-flood Assyria theory. It is important for this tree theory to work. From Gen 3:24 driven out of Eden till flood and fall of mythic proto-Assyria is over 1000yrs probably. Where were the trees of Eden during that time period? 1000yrs is a long time for humans to not discover it. Maybe the angel was still posted there with a sword? If regular Assyria is to be understood, then the entire tree theory has serious problems. How could the trees survive through the flood? All of Levant was well settled, how could people have not found the original location for over 5000yrs?

      I’m trying to ask serious questions and not be sarcastic. But if we want to be literal, then we must also be scientific and logical.

      Eze31:16 “all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon.” This says that Eden =Lebanon. Do you propose that the garden of Eden was in Lebanon?

    • patrick

      Jay & Bill,
      Thanks for all the comments. You know, it is very difficult to hold to the AB topic without going much wider. As such, in trying to keep as close to the topic as possible, I have only caused confusion. My apologies. Let me try to remove some confusion. As Jay I believe you both would agree, Jesus (Yeshua) is our life. There is no other salvation but through Him. The Spirit sanctifies us. Gives us truth. Teaches us and helps us to walk in Him daily. This is (in part) why we should remain calm and pleasant with one another, enjoying our fellowship since we agree in the gospel message – even under topics that really excite us, such as these we are discussing now.
      We are going to die physically one day. All spirits of men return back to God who gave them (saved and unsaved alike). Our spirits are our life, but have nothing to do with our salvation. The soul (I still struggle with comprehending the soul), which I believe to be our personality with all its strengths and weaknesses, is neither alive, or dead based on what I read in the Scriptures. Abraham and Samuel speak, and yet are without their spirit. Currently, my best guess about spirit soul and body is like a molecule (analogy): The protron (+) is the spirit, our life; the electron (-) is our flesh, which is now in opposition to our spirit; both proton and electron are surrounding a neutron (our soul), which is the all-important item that defines who we are. Souls are as diverse as planets in the universe. The soul has some ability to function on its own, but needs the other two to comprehend anything like time, touch, taste, etc… The rich man experiences lack in Hades because he is deprived and awake (yet dead!). Lazarus nevers speaks, but is no longer suffering. Abraham is an enigma, because it is his bosom (don’t ask me!). He’s the father of our faith.

    • patrick

      When we die, our flesh is buried and corrupts. Our spirits return to God. Our souls (as believers) go to one of two places – either the altar of souls (based on a decision from God whether we laid our life down for a good testimony), or AB, which is Paradise, the garden of Eden. Eden was sent down to the center of the earth as a housing for righteous souls, not because God judges plants, nor so souls could eat of the tree of life, etc… It is a temporary housing, much like that of the the Feast of Booths (Tabernacles, or Succoth). Midway through the Tribulation, at the 7th trump, after 7 seals and 6 trumps, and yet before the 7 bowls, and at the time the mark of the beast will begin being issued, the resurrection will happen. Souls will depart AB (Hades (not the grave) where is thy victory & the gates of Hades will not prevail… ); graves will be opened at the Lord’s descent with a shout. Believers in AB will stand to be confirmed that they will walk in the Spirit, being dead to sin and filled with the Spirit to overflowing. This is the end of our salvation – life from the dead – the part that Yeshua made possible for us all. But note that salvation is also eternal (which is much less mentioned), in the sense that without God, who holds all things together, everything would dissolve. Jay is correct in believing we are Israel, and that God’s hand will protect us, just as in the days of Noah, or the Egyptian plagues, or any other examples from the Scriptures. “Keep you from the hour” = “Protect you within a sphere of safety”. A “keep” is a “fortress”. He is our shield, high tower, rock, etc… There is no conflict. The 3.5 years between 7th trump and 1st bowl is not God’s wrath, but Satan’s wrath, who will have been cast down to earth with his angels, having but a short time. We, the resurrected, will be gathered to the 7 churches initially and given the same instructions as that in the 7 letters in the Revelation. Our great commission still…

    • patrick

      stands, with the emphasis on reaching unbelieving Jews, who are about to meet their Messiah. The Church is Ephraim (study him in the OT, noting also that Ephraim is not present in the 144,000 of Israel (Rev.). Jacob, while forming a cross with his arms, prophecied that Ephraim would become a “melo hagoim”, which means a “multitude of Gentile nations”. The prophets, speaking for God, say, “Ephraim is My firstborn”, etc… We are one with Israel, but Jesus, who will be leading the resurrected saints out of the northern territory (Jer.) in a cloud of glory (just like He did in the Exodus), like a Shepherd leading His sheepfold, providing all our needs miraculously, will direct us to the places of ministry while on our way to Jerusalem. Some within the flock will fall away, being found false. These are the foolish virgins (parable), false confessors who never learned to walk as Yeshua taught, seeds sown in thorny or stoney ground, washed hogs who return to wallowing, dogs returning to their own vomit, spots, wrinkles, blemishes, etc… all analogies, per the Scriptures own words – sorry Jay, but I only apply syntax as per specified – if I tell you earthy things and you do not understand, how can I tell you heavenly things? – Joh.3). Many of these traiterous defectors will become false Messiahs, as predicted. To understand the resurrection is to understand Messiah’s ministery on earth. Power will be given us like unto that which He had. We will be tempted on all points based on former life weaknesses. We must abide in the Spirit, using our power only for the spiritual needs of others. For the first time in history the Church will be unified in the Spirit, which is commanded. At His coming on the clouds out of the east (the sign of the Son of Man) every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him (that’s us). He will save His Bride from the beast, and we will all be caught up to Him in the air.

    • patrick

      Hope this helps you understand my interpretation.
      As I said before, the big picture is in Adam: perfect (filled with the Spirit/dead to sin), until tested; found missing the mark because of ignorance about evil; experiences evil – gains discernment; dies trusting in the Messiah (non-martyr death, unlike Abel); rises in the resurrection to his feet on the earth (now knowing good vs. evil, unlike before); is tested once again (no longer in ignorance), being again filled with the Spirit/dead to sin; is found to be perfect, or imperfect, based on his choice of who he will serve (God, or self); meets the Lord at His coming who will open heaven to him, or destroy his soul in the Lake of Fire.

    • patrick

      I agree about Asshur, but the mention of the name does not necessarily preclude that it is the first time someone was named Asshur.

      A pre-Flood Assyria is not a gnostic concept anymore than the land of Nod. We know about the same amount of information about either. The very passage gives us the historical background otherwise lacking.

      The holy angels and souls of the rightous martyrs are the only saints that return with the Lord. We who resurrected, and who are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet Messiah and the martyred saints and angels in the air. Group hugs and high fives!

      Yeshua ia not just a man, but also shares the Godhead. This makes Him Omnipresent. I would hope that you do not believe Yeshua is merely a man! He set aside His glory to come down, and did not consider it robbery.

      I believe that the souls of the dead, righteous, non-martyred, saints are asleep in AB, just as the OT indicates. Lazarus never speaks.

      I am confused about the rich man speaking. The OT states what you are saying, that the dead know nothing. This indicates (also as you have said) may indicate a paradigm in the underworld, but not with the righteous souls, but the unrighteous. Note Isa.14 – the souls in the Pit are stirred up and speak. Sheol stirs them up, right? They therefore can be roused under the proper conditions. What do you think? (Hope you won’t say Isa.14 is poetry and therefore not valid in a literal sense).

      I agree with all you say about Israel and the Church being one, with this caviot: in the resurrection, the Church (being comprised of both believing Jews & Gentiles) will know her Messiah, but the remaining Jews who will believe will be treated distinctly until they do believe. The manner of protection will therefore be distinct for each. Also, this does not mean that saints will not be martyred (beheaded) during the Tribulation. The promises to the Church are to be shielded from God’s wrath, not Satan’s.

    • patrick

      Sheol & the grave are distinct. “Deeper than sheol, who can know it?” and like passages state that sheol is at least beneath the moorings of the mountains. It is the abode of departed soul, as referenced repeatedly in the Scriptures (You will not leave My soul in Sheol, nor allow Your Holy One to see corruption…”)

      Speculating, Eden sat upon pillars that made it stand in the waters (of the sea) and out of the waters (of the Deep). When the fountains of the earth were broken up (Gen.7?), this was precipitated (no pun intended) by the sinking of Eden, which later caused the earth to literally blow apart, releasing the Deep and thereby covering all the high hills by 18 cubits. With the sinking of Eden, landmasses converged to cover Eden and keep the spinning world in balance (I covered the Deep at its descent – Eze.31). This caused the cataclysm of the Deluge. The converging of landmasses formed many mountain ranges (what science calls the older ranges because they appear to be heavily eroded). While these mountains formed the violent waters of the Deluge washed much away. Later, in Peleg’s day (2 gens after the Tower incident) God separated the earth, which formed all the newer looking mountains. That’s just my speculation – I wasn’t there, but it makes sense to me.

      Rivers in sheol? Trees need water, but I don’t know about rivers.

      There were evidently nations before the Deluge. I don’t see an issue with that, seeing the “bene elohim” and their offspring would have almost certainly have formed nations. Sons of Cain vs. sons of Seth, etc…

      I believe only men are said to have souls, not trees.

      It is quite possible that the 4 angels loosed in the Revelation are the same cherubim God posted to guard the tree of life. Note Euphrates is in proximity to both. Can the tree of life die? I think Eden may rise again, according to Isa. and Eze. Another reason to believe AB = Paradise, because Eden rises back to the face of the earth (Rev.2:7).

    • Jay Altieri

      Thanks Patrick, You have a good attitude. You are definitely correct that Yeshua is our life. As you know, I take this very seriously. Life is a precious gift of God. Many people are flippant and caviler about its exclusivity with Yeshua. Life according to Webster means “the ability to function; the force of animate beings; organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism and reaction to stimuli.” Another words as far as people are concerned-thinking is the baseline of life. If a being has the ability to function thought, animate its mind, and react to mental stimulus, then by definition that being is alive. This is true for spiritual beings (angels, demons, deceased believers) and physical beings (all people, animals, plants). Afterlife is defined as spiritual life after we bodily die. Afterlife is a type of life. Spirits can be alive just like bodies can be alive.

      As you said Yeshua is LIFE. Acts 3:15 Author is a good translation. Jesus wrote the book! The Greek word is archegon. It means pioneer, inventor, the very first beginning. Jesus is the inventor of life. He holds the exclusive patent. Nobody owns the product that Jesus invented without His blessing and consent. Jesus is the pioneer toward afterlife. Sentient existence in the spirit realm is a type of life. As pioneer, Jesus blazed the trail through the thicket of forest. No one had been there before Him. He was an unprecedented explorer. A conquistador for He conquered all and gave us LIFE.

      My repetitive point is that before the ministry of Jesus, nobody had spiritual life. He is the prime factor of existence.

    • Jay Altieri

      The distinction between body/soul/spirit has caused much confusion. MHO here: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/Body%20soul%20spirit.htm
      In a nutshell: body is flesh and bones- no debate on that. Plants, animals and people all have a body. It is purely physical life.

      Soul (Hebrew nephesh/Greek psyche) should best be understood as “being.” Personality, as you said, is very good. I would add mind, emotions, thoughts, will power. Animals and people have soul. Plants do not, they have no thoughts and are only body.
      Soul is the software, body is the hardware. Soul is the control panel for body. The body allows the soul(mind) to interact with its environment.

      Spirit is a non-physical parallel structure analogous to the body unique to people. Animals do not have a spirit. Angels and demons are spirits, so it is similar to theirs. It operates in the spiritual realm, which is like a fourth dimension, another realm, but very real. Bodies operate in the material realm, hence spirits operate in the spiritual realm. The spirit is a vessel, like the body, but non material. The both are vessels that hold soul/mind /personality.

      The spirit allows the soul(mind) to interact with the spiritual environment. God is a spirit, so the only way to communicate with God is through the spirit.

      Now the confusing part. In English our words are mixed up. “Soul” is biblically used for the mind (Gk-pysche), but in English we call the immaterial aspect the soul. What we call “soul” is more correctly spirit. There is a total difference between soul and spirit. Even on this post, we have been playing loose with the terminology of “soul.”

      Without a mind you have no self awareness or existential reality. Body and spirit are vessels that hold the mind.
      My theology is that the spirit of unsaved is dead. The spirit before Christ’s resurrection was dead.
      Soul is mind, spirit is immaterial. Read link above if interested further.

    • Jay Altieri

      Thank you for a direct answer to many of those tough questions. Gen 4:16 nod should not be capitalized. They should have just translated the Heb word ‘wandering.’ Same word used in Ps 56:8. Cain entered the land of wandering. He was a nomad. Homeless hobos don’t settle down and have cities, so transliterating the word into a place name of an established settlement was a mistake.

      It seems odd that you think non-martyred saints are unconscious, but wicked sinners have mental faculties. Why are the wicked blessed with knowledge and understanding of self awareness, but not the righteous? The wicked are snuffed out(Prov 13:9)

      Yes, you called it; Isa 14:9 is poetry. If reading ESV, notice all that white margin surrounding the stanzas. Kings in the grave do not really have a throne. They do not talk or have wisdom (Ecc 9:10). Isa 14 and Ecc 9 are in direct contradiction if you insist on wooden literalness of both. Remember I believe that death has been overturned by the resurrection of Jesus for ALL who partake of his flesh.
      Notice also Isa 14:18- sheol is paralleled with the tomb.

      I find it odd that you think Lazarus was sleeping. It says that he was on Ab’s bosom/chest. This posture requires an elbow to prop up into that place. Does Abraham have a dead/sleeping guy laying on his chest? The expression is derived from table manners of the ancient near east, possibly tangential but non contentious article here involving table manners and historical context: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/anointed_by_sinful_woman.htm

      Dives (Latin for Richman) apparently thought that Laz was awake and sentient, for he asked for Laz to be sent on an errand. Ab said ”No can do, but Laz is now comforted here.” Again this seems to point to sentience of Laz. Point being in the parable, I think Laz is awake. However, remember I think it is a PARABLE. My point is that I see an unfortuitous distinction in your system where the wicked are conscious and the saints are not.

    • patrick


      Do you believe Adam had spiritual life prior to the fall?

      You gave me some food for thought regarding body/spirit/soul. I meant to say before that (using my molecule analogy) that the body (-) is dead, the spirit (+) is the life, and the soul (neutral) is neither dead or alive, which is difficult for me to comprehend.

      I would personally capitalize Nod, as I believe it was a place. Cain “dwelt” in the land of Nod. Note despite God’s pronouncement that he should be a wanderer and a vagabond, Cain went right out and built the city of Enoch (Gen.4:17, named after his son). He did not wander, but lived in the land of Nod.

      Only the unrighteous souls speak, except in the case of Samuel, who was disturbed by witchcraft, and Abraham (the anamoly, it being his place). I could be wrong that the righteous sleep, but that’s what the NT always indicates. I don’t understand how people can just ignore that. My thoughts about the righteous sleeping, while the unrighteous are awake, run as follows (we are getting a little deeper now and this is NOT Scriptural, but my own reasoning – so it’s probably wrong!): Anyway, there are two basic types of souls at rest in AB; 1) true confessors of Messiah, and 2) false confessors of Messiah. This is based on the free gift of salvation (life from the dead) being an irrevocable gift from God. Once you have it you can’t lose it. 1) rests because he receives comfort in so doing, while 2) is kept comfortable so that he will not be in a repentant state of mind when the resurrection comes upon him. 2) is a Pharisee type that Yeshua spoke strongly against (those who think they see but are really blind). These are the future defectors from the faith. God wants them reserved for His wrath. The go tthrough the Tribulation unprotected, miss the rapture, receive the bowls and are then thrown in the Lake of Fire. God doesn’t want these awake and thinking repentance. Also, righteous souls rest because there are both Christians…

    • patrick

      souls, as well as souls that haven’t formally accepted Messiah as Savior (such as many Jews who truly love God, but despise Messiah based on biases they have too often heard). These should not be conversing until the resurrection.
      The souls of the lost are in the torments of Hades (torment means conscious by definition, I think) – by the way, you can’t torment a dead body so sheol is not the grave – because they are deprived of all the material things they loved.
      OK, this is where it gets really dicey for me, because I actually wonder some times whether God might want some of the lost to be awake so that they might actually gain a truly repentant attitude and be saved in a resurrection scenario. I can’t justify them rising prior to the GWTJ, but God can do anything He wants – He the God of narrow escapes. This is just a nagging suspicion ,and I can’t really defend it.
      Those souls that simply hate God will be awake, reserved for judgment. All souls remain unliving though.

      The last enemy to be destroyed will be death – won’t happen till the GWTJ. Death is still alive and well for now (if that makes sense).

      I picture Lazarus sleeping on Abraham, both of which are dead for now, or whatever disembodied souls are. See, it’s very confusing. I picture the rich man wanting Abraham to wake Lazarus up and send him on an errand. Funny how opposite conclusions can be reached!

    • Jay Altieri

      “abode of departed souls” is a phrase that you will not find in the bible, it does however appear in Plato’s Phaedo discourse.
      Patrick may very well agree with this, but the whole idea of “life” after death, another words conscious sentient awareness after death is not an OT Hebrew notion. The OT displays death as the end of the road. Sheol is a place of unconsciousness based on Ecc 9:10, Ecc 9:5, Ps 146:4, Ps 115:17, Ps 6:5, Ps 88:10-12, Isa 38:18 and similar genre of verses. Hover your mouse on those verses to read them. There are many of them. Hebrew prophets understood the dead to be weak and powerless, without thought or memory, without work or action.

      Gen 25:8 Tells us the ultimate fate happened to Abraham too. He was human, a son of Adam, a man under the curse of sin awaiting a redeemer. Abraham died. There are serious theological problems for you to permit Abraham to be alive in the bosom. Was Abraham first born from the dead, instead of Jesus? Was Abraham not under the curse of sin and death?

      Instead of making classes of people per your system (wicked are alive, saints are asleep, Abraham is an anomaly), I see a universal curse. The curse is death, it is caused by sin. Absolutely nobody is immune. But there is a silver lining.

      Ps 16:10 notice it says not leave my ‘nephesh’ this is mind(psyche per LXX). When you read ‘soul’ you are thinking spirit, but biblically it should be rendered thoughts or mind. David’s personality will not remain stuck in the grave of unconsciousness. He expects a resurrection when Messiah(holy one) sees no corruption. For the record, David was not a martyr, he lived to a ripe old age.

      So in the OT death is unconsciousness for all. This is why the story of Dives and Laz must be a parable. It is contradictory to OT death curse, thus if it causes a logical contradiction, it must be non-literal.

    • Jay Altieri

      However, in the NT something changes. John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47; 6:54. They all say that Christians HAVE eternal life. They all use the present active tense in the Greek. Those who believe currently posses and actively hold eternal life. New life is granted here and now. This has enormous theological consequences as described in my book, Dead Soul Syndrome, but the point for here is that we have LIFE. Life is defined as consciousness. Life is capability of reaction to stimuli. Life is communication, thinking, action. It is contradictory oxymoron to say that someone is alive and also without thought or work.

      What changed between the OT and the NT? Praise God the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the pivot point from the grave. It baffles me why that is so hard for people to accept. It is all about the Resurrection of Jesus. There are no exceptions. God does not create systems with an anomaly. His systems are perfect, complete, without hiccup. They are universal for He is not a respecter of persons. They revolve around Jesus Christ.

    • Jay Altieri

      Yes, I believe Adam had spiritual life prior to the fall. The spirit (colloquially but improperly called soul) died when he swallowed the fruit.
      I think your molecule analogy has problems. P+N are large particles at the center of an atom. E are tiny particles that spin around the exterior shell. Maybe P+N are similar enough to each other, but E is totally different type of particle. E can be stripped away quite easily, but separating Ps+Ns from the core requires nuclear physics and extreme energy input. That is why they are called ‘elements’, the quantity of P+N are basically immutable. I do not think man was created in the image of matter.

      Instead man was created in the image of God. God is a trinity. 3 persons of God are equal, in perfect balance. Grk Orthodox church uses an equilateral triangle to display the interrelation. The 3 are distinct separate ontological persons, but unified, indivisible and coequal.
      Not atomic matter, but God is the correct model for body/soul/spirit.

      The 3 are equally important. Many times you hear people putting down the body, talking smack about the body as if it is evil. But God created body and said that it was “good.” So, Yes, I believe Adam had spiritual life prior to the fall. He was a perfect representation of the Trinity. Good and perfect in all 3 aspects of his anthropology. But then, Adam and Eve screwed it up. When they sinned the spirit component immediately died. Dead means without function, no response, incapable of action or thought. It became a spiritual corpse.
      Of course the body and mind continued to live at least for a while. When the body died, then the mind (soul/nephesh/psyche) vanished for the software had no dwelling place.

      The new birth, a new creation, being quickened are all describing the resurrection of the spirit component. Read the body/soul/spirit link that I sent. It is a long paper, so I’d recommend printing it and read on the couch. I can only take a couple of pages on a computer…

    • Jay Altieri

      As to non-mayrtrs not making the heaven cut, consider the words of Jesus in John 17. This is known as the high priestly prayer:
      John 17:9 he prays for everyone that belongs to God. This is a believer specific prayer, but not a martyr specific prayer. ( I feel silly saying that because martyr means ‘witness’ in the 1st century, not the way you are using it as sacrifice)
      John 17:11 and again in John 17:13 Jesus is going to the Father. Jesus is going to heaven.
      John 17:20-21 again not just for the 12 disciples, but for ALL believers of all ages.

      Here is the punch line in John 17:24. Jesus asks that ALL believers, be where He is. We are to exist with Jesus. Jesus is in heaven, so ALL believers are in heaven. But it gets better, Jesus wants all of us to “see his glory.” The word for ESV “see” or KJV “behold” means to be a spectator, look at, to view attentively, to perceive with the eyes, to enjoy the presence of one.

      You cannot see his glory if you are asleep or unconscious or dead. Remember we are the bride of Christ. We are married to Jesus. Is Jesus married to a dead person? Is his bride asleep and unaware? Are only those who sacrifice their lives granted vision and consciousness? All of the fathers of Israel: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph- all died in old age in peace. They were not martyrs. Are the patriarchs still awaiting their redemption, while others who sacrificed more get an early on?

      I think John 17 says that ALL Christians will be in heaven with Jesus to be at His side and recognize his glory.Brother Patrick this is good news, I am proclaiming Life for Christians. That is the good news of the gospel.

    • patrick

      I appreciate many of your points made in the last quadruple thread. I am not really sure I disagree with much that you are saying (but I will comment on a few things in a moment). As I have said, the topic death and the dwelling place of the dead is very confusing to me. It is the most challenging study I have ever undertaken (no pun intended). I have tried to explain that I cannot fathom death, as it relates to the soul. It is similar (for me at least) to that which Paul stated in 2Cor.12:4 regarding his seizure into Paradise. It is inexpessible. Domains such as sheol and heaven go beyond the comprehension of man. Yes, the OT view is just as you have presented with the provided passages. No dispute there, although , as I said earlier, Sheol can stir up its dead (souls), and I believe that the context of such passages is to focus on the soul’s cutoff-ness in relation to the land of the living. They simply can’t perform or learn or progress in any way. Things that the living can do are simply impossible for souls. And yet a consciousness (I know that this is where I will disturb you – with the mention of some form of consciousness after death, but what I am saying is I can’t comprehend this part) that belongs to a different plane of reality from what can be comprehend seems to exist in sheol. Maybe it could be explained as hunger pains for unrighteous souls. Some inexpressible longing that manifests itself somehow. I believe we are arguing semantics to some point and should move on. The soul, apart from the spirit is dead. Let’s agree on that. If you want to go deeper, that’s fine, but I think we’re at the end of the line Scripturally on the topic and entering into mere speculation. It is a hidden truth. Sheol is hidden from our eyes.
      Psa.16:10 is strictly Messianic – you cannot try to make it apply to David based on its clear context.

    • patrick

      I’m a little confused by your statements about Yeshua’s teaching on Lazarus & the rich man. You say it conflicts with the OT presentation about sheol, but then make reference to a paradigm that Messiah caused, which seems to make the teaching possible. It seems contradictory to some degree.

      I see the resurrection of Yeshua as the only action that could make resurrection possible for man. I don’t think souls woke up when He arose. Joh.1:4 states that in Him was life and the life was the light of men. This is from a Creation time reference and so places Him, from the beginning, as the Creator that brought life. When man fell, I don’t think it meant something was taken away from God in terms of His power that He only received back after He rose. Is that what you are saying?

      God certainly makes anomalies. The universe is full of them. That’s why we have the word, silly.

      The molecule analogy I used only goes so far. To take it farther than I said is too far. I believe Abraham is dead, not living. I appreciate your interest in this topic. I defer to you. I’d like to read some of your stuff when I have time.

      I agree that soul/body/spirit is a portrait of the Trinity, I don’t think they are co-equal though. For instance, Yeshua Himself stated that He did not know everything the Farther knows (the day or the hour). By definition, as Ambassador to this world, Yeshua had to be less glorious than the Father. John falls down in His presence in the Revelation, but he would have been consumed in the presence of the Father. That’s why Yeshua said that no one has seen the Father but the Son. Similarly, the Holy Spirit appears to be in complete subjection to the Father and Son. He doesn’t even appear to have His own personal pronoun. I believe they are in unity though, but distinct in glory. Yeshua is working for the Father until He can put all things under His Father’s feet. The Spirit abides with us (least glorious of the Trinity – although still awesome).

    • patrick

      I believe martyrs go to the altar of souls because their conduct has verified the genuineness of their faith. The altar speaks of sacrifice – they are under it, where ashes fall. This accounts for the manner of their deaths – that plus their statement about avenging their spilt blood. You actually agree with me that they were slain, don’t you? In terms of “not making the heaven cut”, I believe all Christians (all Israel) will make the heaven cut. The distinction being made here between martyred and non-martyred souls is that one bypasses the resurrection into the Tribulation because it would be redundant to send them there, while the other still requires demonstration that walking in the Spirit is their real eternal choice. The point is ALL of Israel shall be saved. Again, I will allow God to choose who His true martys are.

      In terms of the Joh.17 passages you referenced, I interpret these as referring to a future gathering of all Israel, such as is described numerous times in the NT with regards to His second coming. The testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy – Rev.19:10. The dead in AB will arise and see Him at His coming. No contradiction.

      We will be joined with Yeshua after the Sabbath Rest (Millennial Kingdom), when those who escaped from the nations and enter the kingdom on their mortal feet (the nations to be ruled, as referenced in the sheep and goat judgement). This requires one last shifting of these mortals, which will take place when the Devil is released to deceive one last time. Those remaining after the battle of Gog will also take part in the Marriage of the Lamb to His bride. This may be of interest to Bill, as he had stated that he believes that the Jews will be performing Levitical priestly duties in the Millennial Kingdom, which I support. They will be performing it for mortals – especially for those nations refusing to come up to observe Succoth, which will commemorate the resurrection wilderness sojourn during the Tribulation.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick said:The soul, apart from the spirit is dead. No I don’t agree with that. The word soul biblically used (Heb nephesh/Grk psyche) means mind or personality (that was your word-I like it). Animals have nephesh. Gen 1:24 (KJV living creature). It is just plain wrong to say that the mind is dead apart from spirit. What about Hitler? All unsaved people have soulish life. Isa 66:3 the evil man’s nephesh (KJV soul) delights in abominations. NT also uses psyche same way. Acts 14:2 evil minds=psyche. The same word is translated soul/life/mind/heart. This is the Greek word used in the LXX for nephesh.

      The mind is alive until the body and spirit are both dead. If one or the other is alive (body and/or spirit) then the soul can live. When they are both dead, then the soul perishes. The aforementioned paper has graphic images to display that idea.

      What unbelievers lack is spirit life.
      Where you would be correct would be to say that the soul/mind/personality cannot live independently. It must have a body or spirit vessel.

      Yes, Ps 16:10 is a messianic psalm predicting Jesus. But it is also a personal psalm of worship written by David. Ps 16:1-2 are David’s words. This is his psalm, his poem, his prayer, his worship. To strip David out of the equation, because 1000’s of years later we now realize the messianic implications, is nearsighted. There is a dual focus, a dual fulfillment, both for David locally in the 10th Century BC and for Jesus. Messianic prophecies frequently have a dual fulfillment. example Isa 7:14 Immanuel child is a short term military prophecy given to Ahaz. The historical background of these prophecies is frequently overlooked due to overshadowing of Messiah. Understandably Jesus is more important than David or Ahaz. But Jesus is not the arrogant “give me all the lime light” kind of guy. Jesus is happy to share the prophecies with the original referent. My study here: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/isaiah_7.htm

    • Jay Altieri

      Yes, Yeshua taught on Lazarus & Dives. Yes, Messiah caused the paradigm by his resurrection that would allow Ab+Laz at least to exist and talk and think. But the timing is not yet. When Jesus walked the earth during his ministry, he had not yet been resurrected and glorified. He was a rabbi, an obedient servant, but the economy of the OT was still in effect at that point in time.
      Most of the gospels are telling the story during the OT era. Temple was standing, high priests officiating, OT economy was in place. All human spirits at that point in time were dead in the grave without sentientence, ever since Adam. Because the redemption contract had not yet been ratified by God. The contract had been negotiated and approved since before the foundations of the earth, but they had not yet had title closing.

      John the Baptist was an OT prophet. During his ministry Jesus was an OT prophet (THE Prophet of Deut 18:15).
      After Jesus rose from the dead (Paul tells us that without resurrection everything is a waste of time and bogus hoax), Jesus ascended to the Father and they inked the deal for redemption. Jesus bought the cosmos back. He paid for it with himself. I’m not positive on the exact timing:Definitely after the resurrection, probably at the ascension, or possibly at Pentecost. Somewhere in that time period, is when I am proposing that EVERYTHING changed. It is all about Jesus. When life for his people was paid and guaranteed, He was not slack in giving it to us. At that point, I propose that Christ opened the grave, and called forth everyone who had died that had had saving faith. Only his sheep know his voice (John 10). The unsaved remain in the grave. They were not given the gift of life. But they will encounter a future resurrection for judgment and condemnation. The unsaved have no intermediate state.

      So to answer your question, the confusion is on the timing. Before the Res, Gospels speak in the OT economy. After the Res Acts/Epistles/Rev are NT economy.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, I think you are correct that we getting toward the end of discussable thoughts here. But not quite there yet. I’m going through your comments and trying to be comprehensive.
      You said: When man fell, I don’t think it meant something was taken away from God in terms of His power that He only received back after He rose. Is that what you are saying?
      Huh? Pls restate your question. I don’t understand.

      I might take this back upon further meditation, but I think God does not create anomalies. An anomaly is an abnormality, something that does not behave according to the system rules. God creates with mathematical perfection. He doesn’t round off, so there is zero margin of error. We observe anomalies in nature due to the fall. Congenital birth defects, disorders and mess-ups in planetary motion, inexplicable strangeness in planetary gravitational forces, or anything generally out of whack is because the cosmos, the entire universe is cursed and groaning under the burden of human sin.

      If you discover an anomaly in my theology, than I take that as a logical fallacy. Logic is like math. It is perfect and complete. An anomaly means that my system is wrong, out of kilter, requires change improvement. I propose zero tolerance for anomalies within theology of life and death. The curse of death came in Gen 3. It was upon all naturally born humans from Adam (Jesus exempt due to virgin birth).
      No anomalies. Everybody had a dead spirit. Nobody had an afterlife. The lot of man was the grave. His wages were death. Death means no consciousness. It was universal. Jesus was divine, so he alone was exempt from the curse. And he beat death and conquered the grave. He shares his victory with his wive, his younger brothers, his co-heirs. (I’m being poetically parallel that means us, I do not intend that he had 3 or more classes of people). I reject anomalies in theology. It means that you are harboring a mistake.

    • Jay Altieri

      I don’t have a problem with Millennial temple with commemorative sacrifices either. I’m probably historic pre-mil in my eschatology.

      I won’t quibble over your glory scale of the Trinity. However, the reason Yeshua didn’t know certain stuff, is because at that point he had not yet been glorified. He came as a servant. A slave to the Father. Slaves don’t have all the answers, they just simply obey. After the resurrection(or possibly at the ascension) Yeshua was given ALL authority. He was coronated king of kings, lord of lords. Today, Jesus certainly knows the timing of his Parousia. See my study here: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/obedient_servant.htm

      Thief on the cross is an example of a non-martyr Christian in heaven during the intermediate period. I know that we will have a problem here, but I see paradise=3rd heaven. Jesus is in 3rd heaven during the intermediate period. Thus the thief is in heaven with Jesus during the intermediate period.

      I do take issue with the traditional punctuation of ‘today’ in that verse. No commas exist in the greek mss. I think it should properly read “Verily I say to you today, (this day that I hang on a cross, this day that I look like a criminal, this day that I am paying for humanity). You shall be with me in Paradise.” I punctuate it this way because Jesus did not go to paradise that same day himself either.
      In John 20:17, he tells Mary that he had not yet been to heaven. Jesus was in the grave. Jesus was dead for those 3 days. Jesus had no consciousness himself for those 3 days. Jesus suffered the curse of death for us. The curse is lack of sentience, lack of thought, lack of soul(psyche/mind). If Jesus was not truly dead, then my sins are not truly paid for. It must the just for the unjust. There must be an even trade fair swap. If Jesus never spiritually died then we don’t get spiritual life.

    • patrick

      Not sure if my comments are being posted – the app does not show me my latest posts. I will check back later.

    • Jay Altieri

      We have talked about literal vrs figurative. Consider the conflict between Ecc 9:5; Ecc 9:10; Ps 115:17 and the parables wherein dead people are talking.

      Luke 16 Dives knows that Laz is on the other side, he remembers that he has brothers back on earth, he has wisdom that he is in a bad place. Abraham is aware of the great chasm, he remembers about Law of Moses back on earth, he has wisdom that people won’t listen to a dead man. Both of these guys know all sorts of stuff. They are not silent, lots of talking. This is a direct contradiction to above verses.

      In Isa 14 and Eze 32 dead people are talking, again not silent. They know that the king who just joined them is a great warrior from earth. Ps 49:17 + 1Tim 6:7 Proclaim that you can take no material possessions with you to sheol (the grave), yet these kings have thrones (Isa 14:9) and swords (Eze 32:27). The dead kings know that they had been slain. They recognize the king of Babylon/Pharaoh when he arrives. In these passages dead people know stuff, they have wisdom, they own possessions, and even rise from a seated position (action, work is being performed).

      To avoid a contradiction and logical fallacy (unless your world view allows for anomalies without error) at least one of these genre of passages must be non-literal. Either the Poets and Prophets of Ecc/Ps/Job/Isa etc are speaking literally and dead people are truly dead without thought or consciousness AND the stories are parables.

      Or it is the other way around. The stories are literal and the prophets are figurative. CMP has suggested in an earlier post that the OT contains “deficient eschatology” (see post#50 and my reply). Perhaps you could solve the contradiction by saying that these OT prophets used hyperbole. Ecc 9:6 would mean that they are not real smart. Ecc 9:10 means that they are dull. Isa 43:17 (KJV extinct) would mean not faring well, but still in existence.

      Continue next…

    • Jay Altieri

      My point is that they logically cannot both be literal. Something has to give. I have chosen the first option. I take the prophets at face value. Dead means dead. Extinguished means gone. No thoughts means no sentience or consciousness. This forces me to logically accept the stories as parables. Luke 16 is about money and righteousness. Isa 14/Eze 32 are about prideful kings:bigger they are the harder they fall.

      Many people choose the second option. The stories are literally true, and the rest of the OT must be partially allegorized, somewhat non-literally accepted, or not consistently applied. I hear lip service that Abraham was dead in the bosom, but you think he was talking. I hear you say that the unsaved are spiritually dead, but then you turn right around and say that they are being tormented. You can’t have both.

      My selection of which is literal and which is figurative boils down to a fundamental theological rule. Jesus is prime. Jesus invented life and owns the patent. Human were created with physical life and spiritual life. At the fall, spiritual life perished and returned to pixie dust (so to speak). Physical life started its decay and ends in death and ultimately also returns to dust. We are blest with physical life for a short time period. It is a gift. Nobody had afterlife until after Jesus paved the way. Today, nobody has afterlife without acceptance of Jesus.
      The traditional selection of which is literal and figurative is guided by a cultural assumption in the immortality of humans.
      Point being everybody has some literal and some figurative interpretations, your fundamental platform will guide how you select.

    • Jay Altieri

      It appears to me that your cosmology is quite complex and I would say highly mythic. From what I understand you envision at least 3 locals of the spirit world: heaven-abode of god and conscious martyrs; AB-abode of sleeping non-slain Christians(not really dead because they occasionally wake up for some reason, then fall back to sleep); and Hades-abode of conscious wicked currently being tormented. By complex I mean that you have several compartments for afterlife residency, You should consider invoking Occam’s razor.
      Mythic means the stuff of legend. It really can’t be documented, but cannot be disproved either. It is traditional, but unsubstantiated.

      My cosmology is much simpler and does not require as much substantiation, because I reject 2 of those 3 as fictitious locales. I accept only Heaven. Heaven is real. It is the abode of God and now after Resurrection it is the abode of all dead saints (OT and NT). You cannot travel there in a space ship. It is in another dimension, a spiritual dimension. That is it; my cosmology is raw, clean, simple, uncomplicated. The cosmos is divided in half heaven/earth; up/down. Nothing else. AB and Hades are make believe from parables. Similarly in the rich fool with a big barn whose life was demanded that night (Lk 12:16-20), the barn is not a real place. You can’t go to the barn, it is make believe setting for a moral story.

      If everybody in AB is unconscious, why even propose a “place” for dead spirits to go to? Is it a big mausoleum? If they are truly dead, wouldn’t it be cleaner to say that they have decomposed and returned to dust, awaiting the resurrection? Return to dust was the promise of Gen 3:19.

    • Jay Altieri

      The conscious sinners in Hades being tormented during the intermediate period is particularly troublesome.

      First, consciousness is a sign of life. These people do not get life. The wages of sin is death. This has been a serious bone of contention for me all through these posts. I consider Jesus as the exclusive source of Life. I consider it heretical (contrary to the gospel) to claim that man has autonomous Life apart from God. No one ever quite has the audacity to directly claim that, however their doctrines belie their claims.

      Second, why are the sinners being tormented and punished before the Judgment? Numbers 35:12 + Deut 17:2-6 say that a man accused of murder shall flee to the city of refuge until he has stood before the judges and had a fair trial and is legally convicted based on the testimony of 2-3 witnesses. It is against the Law to kill him until due process of trial has been performed. This is in accord with our sense of fairness. Innocent till proven guilty is a biblical percept. This was the God given law of Israel, and we know that the Law is holy and just.
      The Judgment has not happened yet. Acts 17:31 Be it known that Jesus has been appointed!
      Rom 2:5 this day of wrath will be revealed at the Parousia (Coming) of Christ.

      So if the Judgment has not happened yet, and if the Law prohibits execution of the offender until after the Judgment, then an intermediate contemporary Hades as a place of conscious torment for sinners is unconstitutional, unbiblical and impossible.

      If I have misunderstood something, pls explain.

    • patrick

      I do not see my comments being posted. When I try to resubmit them the App responds that I have already posted them. Not sure what to do here. I would like to address your comments, but am not able.

      Is there a web manager that can address the issue?

    • patrick

      Yeshua said, ” The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” Oddly enough, this is from Luk.16 and just prior to the story of Lazarus and the rich man. It could be that a paradigm happened, but the opening of the door would have occurred with John’s preaching of the kingdom – it is at hand! So if you take the paradigm approach, which I have considered and am not against, then the story stands as truth when Yeshua spoke it.

      Where does the Scripture identify consciousness as life? It may sound a silly question, but in terms of disembodied souls, you may want to think on that. I made a prior post that I do not see that gives the Scriptural definition of life.

    • patrick

      You said, “Christ opened the grave, and called forth everyone who had died that had had saving faith. ”
      If this is true, then please comment on Acts 2, as it pertains to king David. Particularly Acts 2:34. This was post-crucifixion, post-ascension, day of Penetcost. David has not ascended. Period.

    • patrick

      You are correct about anomalies. It was a poor choice of words on my part. I agree with you about anomalies not being a part of the Scriptures. Abraham seems to be an exception (not an anomaly) to the rule regarding the dead souls in AB because it is his chamber. He would be the caretaker. His portrayed righteousness, aside from believing God, seems to focus all around his hospitalities and kind treatment of neighbors in a gospel fashion (love). When we read about Sarah’s death we get one verse. When we read about the acquiring of the tomb from Mamre, we get a whole chapter. Note the presence of the field and trees were included with the cave. I believe there is more being described here than just the family burial plot. I believe there is also a message about AB going on here.

      Based on what you said about the belief that the righteous saints graves being opened, doesn’t king David qualify as an anomaly?

      Also, Mat.27 states that graves were opened and many of the dead went into Jerusalem. Did Job, Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc……. enter Jerusalem? I don’t remember reading about this anywhere, like in Josephus, for instance. Should have caused quite a stir, don’t you think? I believe those resurrected were the recently deceased – like Lazarus (the brother of Martha and Mary), whom Yeshua raised from the dead. According to Acts 2, the fact that Yeshua ascended alone proves that God has made Him our Messiah.

      Also, do you confirm that Isa.53 is poetry?

    • patrick

      The unrighteous dead speak from sheol when it is stirred up. I do not claim to understand precisely what that means, but, poetry or not, God speaks only truth. Messiah spoke only truth in Luk.16. Isa.53, if you say it is poetry, is actually quite factual in every respect – and important to be understood literally. So who is the all-knowing one that determines what to accept and what to reject? I accept it all, but there will be difficulties that are encountered because of unawareness about spiritual realms on my part. If sheol can stir up its dead unrighteous souls so that they can speak in an incomprehensible tongue that is not according to this world, then so be it. I don’t see the problem. It matches Luk.16 to a tee.

    • patrick

      This business you raise about thrones and swords in sheol is another matter altogether. I believe the concept about the unrighteous dead’s place in sheol is that every man, in this present world (the land of the living), digs a mini-pit for himself within the Pit according to his works. This is emphasized repeated in the OT. We are also told that the nations are gathered under their respective king in sheol. I don’t claim to understand exactly what that means (I have had several kings rule over me). It may be an angelic reference, as angels (malukim) are mentioned several times as being over nations – Mishael, the prince of Persia, etc… In terms of thrones in sheol, I do not believe a personal chair left the surface of the earth, but a place of distinction is given to kings. The Lord causes the basest of men to rule over the affairs of men. In terms of those with swords resting under their heads, I believe these are a special class of individuals – the nephilim, and/or perhaps their sires. These are those which caused great terror in the land of the living. These lived by the sword evidently (such as this ancient, pre-Deluge Assyria mentioned in the same passage). These perished in the Deluge. These, along with the antediluvian people were literally wiped from the face of the earth – with all their possessions – in God’s wrath. No traces left. Swallowed like Korah and his family/possessions. This is what the whole chapter is saying. Everything, across the board, has been interpreted literally with no anomalies.

    • patrick

      Nothing has to give, but the understanding that when you die, your spirit returns to God, your body corrupts in the grave, and you soul will rest in the presence of the Lord in Abraham’s Bosom. You will await the upward call of the Lord and be placed in the Great Tribulation with God and all the holy host of heaven on your side.

      This consciousness thing seems to be a sticking point with you. You know, in Noah’s days, God said he would destroy the earth, and everything that has breath in it. Later He said he would spare Noah and his family and two of every living creature. Then later He said He would spare seven each of clean animals. This does not mean God was wrong at any point, it means He is telling us precisely what happened. Similarly, if the righteous OT writers say that there is no consciousness in sheol, they were only writing what the Spirit revealed to them. But that does not necessarily mean that Abraham would have to also be unconscious, or those souls disturbed by witchcraft, or those souls in the place of torment, or angels (who do not die, but are evidently in the abode of the dead) who are bound in chains (Why bind a sleeping guy?) – you see what I mean? Our Sovereign God speaks in His own way.

      Give it to me literal. You know, one thing I learned from the garden of Eden episode is that the serpent likes to challenge what God has said. Give it to me literal and the truth will make the way. So narrow an explanation that one path remains.

    • patrick

      The Scriptures are not legend. That is where I read and get my substantiation about these things. I suppose I could say similar things about some of your beliefs being post-Modern. The modern church began the dissection of God’s word through the blossoming of the scientific method as viewed from a Darwinian vantage. There was no need (or sanity) in adding ages to the word of God, unless evolution, which rejects the Scriptures, is desired to be inserted. But many dull Christians compromised their beliefs because they did not want to appear silly by holding on to outdated notions in a modern world. Science has continued to pollute our world with its infantile notions for the last 200 years, and in its wake the post-Modern church has emerged, scissors in hand. Now nothing can be known for sure. If you make sheol a fictitious place, you are rejecting an important portion of God’s word. To claim that it is make-believe from parables is incorrect. Much has been said about sheol/hades and it is not possible to diminish its condition to the grave. I grant you that the OT treatment of sheol/grave is messed up in most versions of the Scriptures due to bias (righteous go to graves while the unrighteous go to sheol), but we still have the word of God if we don’t mind digging. Now I know you are a digger because you don’t just say the things you do without having dug deep. So few seem to do so.

    • patrick

      I believe you have magnified the unconsciousness soul beyond reason. You, or I, cannot possibly hope to understand spiritual realms and be able to give any extensive explanations for them. Maybe you should try viewing all the writings of Solomon as poetry and see what that leaves you. Man was created body/spirit/soul. The body dies when the spirit returns to heaven. The soul departs at the same time and ceases further development. The flesh corrupts. Disembodied souls do not have consciousness like unto our own because they are not hooked up to a function brain with sensory receptors. Disembodied soul are dead (they have no independent locomotive ability, nor breath, nor blood), and are in need of a spiritual world, which sheol and heaven are.

    • patrick

      You said, “The conscious sinners in Hades being tormented during the intermediate period is particularly troublesome.” Aside from what I have already said about your sticking point on consciousness (that’s where you always jump off), this concept of pre-judgment torment bothered me for a long time as well. I basically wondered what’s the rush? Why not wait and turn them into the LoF after judgment? This is where that nagging feeling I mentioned in a prior post came in. It is none of our business, and certainly not anything to be preached, but my suspicion is that God wants those sinners to know what is coming. God could be priming the pump to save more souls, but it may require a tremendously fiery ordeal for them to be saved. He would have to literally wear them out in the resurrection in order to validate them, possible as mortals entering the Millennial Kingdom. No one should be preaching such a means of salvation, for it is not Scriptural, but if God’s love is as intense as stated, and some children cannot learn without the rod of correction, then He may have another way lined up for such. You would tell your kids not to lie, but you already know they will. But we need to listen to Yeshua. I don’t really want to say any more than that about that topic except God, in His infinite love toward the unjust, might justly punish them in order to save them. In a sense, we too get punished every day. I chose God, but still feel the trials of the world.

      Another possible explanation to the dilemma is that they did it to themselves. By pursuing evil they left their soul in a damaged/underdeveloped state that is prone to torment.

      Execution of the soul happens in the LoF, not sheol.

    • Jay Altieri

      Good catch about David. I drew from John 5:25. It says that only those hearing the call live. Many dead are unsaved and deaf to call of shepherd. Jesus said time for this resurrection is now (circa 30ad). When Jesus rose, He raised the spirits of the saints.
      Notice John 5:28-29, Jesus said soon (2000yrs and counting) ALL the dead rise from the mnēmeion. Thats simple Gk word for grave/tomb/sepulcher. It is literal, so this is now speaking of resurrection at the Parousia.
      Notice contrast between 5:25 and 5:28-29. V25 only some hear, v28 all hear. V25 they given life; v29 they given life or krisis (damnation) based on acts.

      So there is a resurrection that follows Jesus’ resurrection. I think this is supported by Eph 4:8. When Jesus ascended, he took with him the captives of the grave (sheol). They were prisoners in greatest jailhouse of all time. He didn’t take everybody, only whom he is giving a gift. What is the gift of God? Eternal life. Of course at this point, it is only a spiritual gift of life, there is a pause between the spiritual res and the bodily physical res.

      Acts 2:29 I think is referring to the body of David. Notice the word mnēma (grave), this is always used of a literal physical sepulcher. The discussion on Pentecost day that Peter is preaching about is the literal bodily physical resurrection of Jesus that had happened less than 2 months ago. Peter said that David has not bodily risen, since the tomb was as yet undisturbed. They are not talking about the intermediate period.
      Acts 2:34-35 Again I think this is in reference to a body resurrection, not a spirit resurrection. A lot of scoffers in Jerusalem were debunking the foolish idea that Jesus’ tomb literally opened and he walked out. Peter says that David did not bodily go up to heaven and sit at the right hand of God. But Jesus actually, literally with a body did just that. The bodily resurrection of Jesus is the topic of this passage.

    • Jay Altieri

      I think that life involves consciousness is self evident, but excellent question for the exercise of concordance flipping. In Hebrew chai and nephesh are the two words translated as life. They are paralleled in synonymy in Job 33:18; Job 33:20; Ps 88:3; Ps 143:3. In Gen 1:20; Gen 2:7; Jer 38:2 they appear side by side in a double whammy of living lifeforms. Sort of redundant but definitely expresses that life is alive. Do a concordance search, these words are used together in over 60 verses.

      Dictionary definition of consciousness is perceiving, knowledge or awareness: capable of or marked by thought: having mental faculties. My statement that consciousness is indicative of life is interpretive. I don’t think Bible ever says that straight up as that word is not used, but it seems intuitive that they go together like peas in a pod. Only living things are conscious.

      Bible says that life is animated. It moves+runs, its active. When applied metaphorically to inanimate objects, we understand living water to be not stagnant. Movement and quickening is only possible by conscious beings.
      Ps 119 uses a verbal form ‘chaiyah’ 11x over. It is translated as quickened, having action. Again idea of movement.

      Life +seeing are associated in 10 vrs, eg Job 7:7. Sight is organic process that requires brain power to process.
      Brain power is consciousness. Its movement +action on a mental level(not muscular). Again idea is relationship between life and motion/activity.

      Isa 26:19 gives the idea that living is related to being awake. Dan 12:2 shows that awake is the opposite of being asleep. Sleep, as you have pointed out, is a euphemism for being dead, because of the sedentary, non-active, non-responsiveness of sleep. Being conscious and being awake are reasonable synonyms in English.

      Eze 18:24 ff displays the obvious that life is the opposite from death. So whatever we determine “life” means, then “death” must be antithetical. Common sense, huh?

    • Jay Altieri

      Luke 16:16 is about persecution for the name of Jesus. Its freqntly misunderstood due to poor translation of KJV. The Grk word biazotai is better translated in the parallel text (exact same word) of Mat 11:12.
      It is ridicules to think that people can forcefully barge their way into the kingdom. You only get into the kingdom if the Father draws you, never based on your aggressive zealous work.

      Instead of storming the kingdom and capturing it by righteous zeal, it means that they are storming AGAINST the kingdom. The kingdom suffers violence is much better translation. Another words, the Jewish nation (and whole world) hate Christ. They persecute believers, they rally to fight against the kingdom. These are strong verses against a pre-trib rapture, that we will be whisked off the earth never to face persecution, But I don’t think it has much anything to do with our talk.

      The shift in universal eschatology, the watershed between grave and heaven occurred at the resurrection of Jesus Christ. John was a precursor, heralding that event by about 3 years. Why would John’s preaching open the grave? Only a risen Christ has that power.

      I fully agree that the “story stands as truth when Yeshua spoke it.” The question is what truth is He driving at? Is he revealing to the Pharisees, his arch enemies, about heaven and hell? Jesus advised against such in Mat 7:6.
      Or is he telling the Pharisees “who loved money” (Lk 16:14- the context of the parable) that riches do not equate to righteousness?

      I too have had problems with posting. Once I totally lost a long winded, detailed study. Now I write it in a word processor, save it to my pc, then copy paste. Thank you very much for your interaction on this topic. Most of what we’ve said is in my book, its not like I made all this up last night. I’ve been studying it for 10yrs now. Always learning more too. You’re very knowledgable and scripture savy. Thanks.

    • Jay Altieri

      Ok, When I said “Christ opened the grave at his resurrection” I meant it metaphorically. Of course today the bodily resurrection has not yet happened (Maranatha Lord). Literal cemeteries are still intact and full of cadavers. I meant it in the poetic vein of sheol and hades as figurative expressions for the grave. I speak in terms of my own theology. When encountering folks of a variant theology, our own words can be misread, sorry for the confusion. My bad.

      “spirit returns to God” comes from Ecc 12:7. I think it is a biased backloaded translation. It should say “the breath returns to God who gave it.” It is itself a quote from Gen 2 “man formed from dust” and filled with the “breath of God.” It would be better to use the simple meaning of rauch as breath/wind. To say that the spirit as in the immaterial ontological being of the 4th dimension, returns to God would be saying more than you intend. In context Ecc 12 is about ALL people good bad and ugly. Do you propose that the spirit of the wicked are in heaven? When I say breath returns to God, I do not mean to be hyper literal that exhaled air goes to heaven. Life is a gift from God to all creatures, even animals. When we breath our last the life vanishes.

      What is the message of AB at Mamre?

    • Jay Altieri

      Mat 27:52-53 is a cool verse. Of course, I think it occurred AFTER the resurrection of Jesus, because I am hung up on Him being the firstfruit. V53 specifically says “after.” I agree probably recently deceased. Saints that the living would recognize. Definitely quite a stir! If Isaiah walked down the street nobody would know who he was. But if Uncle Joseph that we buried last year suddenly walked into the temple grounds, people would freakout. But just like news media today, it makes a big stir, and then people forget by next week. This would be in agreement with Abraham’s lesson that even if they return from the dead nobody will listen. I said temple grounds because the text says “holy city” I don’t think they made a beeline to the marketplace or the Roman garrison. They went straight to the temple to worship. Some people think that these saints were raptured and taken to heaven physically after they were resurrected, or some say ascended with Jesus 40days later. I don’t think so. I think they died again shortly afterward (like next day or 2). For a final and glorified resurrection they will have to wait with the rest of us per Heb 11:40. We are all perfected (completed, glorified, theosified) together at the same time. Like Lazarus, they would have received normal unglorifed nonperfect bodies, subject to re-death. Not actually Lazarus though, he lived quite a while.

    • Jay Altieri

      Yes Isa53 is poetry. Poetry does not mean that it is fake or not true or to be discounted. About 50% of the OT is poetry. It means that it may use more figurative language and not be wooden literal. ESV +NIV and other newer translations designate poetic sections in stanzas with lines indented. There is usually a big white margin on the printed page. This is a modern conveyance. The mss do not have indentations or scansion of Hebrew lines. Scholars may differ on stanza lines, but the general idea is valid. Hebrew poetry (Job, Ps, most of Isa) is recognized from regular prose (like most of Joshua or Chronicles) by parallel repetition in balanced lines. These stanzas would be easier to memorize in an oral society then flat out prose chapters.

      For figurative language, see v6+7 we are not really sheep we are like sheep. Messiah is not factually a lamb, he is like a lamb. This is analogy, not literal. In both cases the word “like” or “as” in not in the Hebrew text, translators provided it to make comprehension for English readers. This is obvious enough that people don’t get hung up on Jesus factually being a farm animal, buut they do get hung up on people talking while dead.

      Look at all the repetition in Isa 53 (also in Eze 32+Isa 14) almost every verse is a balanced couplet. Modern Americans hate poetry, so this doesn’t usually go over well, but as a society we need more training and appreciation in the fine arts. Our God is a master bard.

    • patrick

      I agree with your interpretation of Joh.5, that this is speaking about two distinct resurrections – I agree that there was a resurrection in 30(ish)AD, and that they were only recently deceased people (still having intact eardrums), like Lazarus (Mary & Martha’s bro.), who subsequently died again. So, based on your interpretation that ALL the righteous saints ascended somewhere around that time, you believe David did not rise from the dead bodily, but his soul (although I think you said spirit) only ascended along with all the other OT saints? OK, then what is the purpose of the dry bones resurrection pertaining to the WHOLE house of Israel (Eze.37:11), and why is their hope cut off? Are you saying that souls that went to heaven have to return to suffer the Tribulation on earth? Yeshua said that once He gathered us we would be with Him forevermore – right? Please comment.

    • patrick

      I think a lot has been made of Eph.4:8 concerning this fantasy ascension of souls into heaven. Let’s be reasonable and first admit that to base such a critical theology on such a vague verse is highly suspect. I say “vague” in the context that you are trying to make it say something that simply isn’t there, thus making the verse obscure. It shows that there is scanty evidence, otherwise you would have something more explicit. Secondly, a good hermeneutic to remember here in rendering this verse might be to take the verse and put it in the context of the chapter. “…and GAVE gifts to men” (the latter part of Eph.4:8) certainly is addressed in the same chapter – don’t you agree? “He GAVE some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers … for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” (Eph.4:11-12). So, if the gifts are mentioned, how about this “He led captivity captive” business? I think so! Read the rest of the chapter (Eph.4:12-32). When He ascended He led sin captive BY SENDING THE HOLY SPIRIT TO MAN. Remember, Yeshua told His disciples that it was good that He should depart so that the Comforter might come (Joh.16:7)? Yep, and when the Spirit came it made it possible to set the captives (the LIVING Church) free from the bondages of sin (the captivity). When He ascended, He led sin captive, and gave gifts to men. The whole of the remainder of the chapter speaks of “how it was before His ascension”, and “how it now is after His ascension”. Again, compare the captivity referenced in Eph.4:8 with that of Luk.4:18, when Yeshua read from Isaiah’s scroll in the synagogue. And who were the captives to whom liberty was proclaimed? To the LIVING, not the dead (Luk.4:20-21)…

    • patrick

      Is Eph.4:8 really the best you can do to prove the ascension of souls up into heaven? Even the verse itself says “When HE ascended”, not “When THEY ascended”. A matter is established by two or more witnesses, so what other passage can you bring to bear in support of the ascending souls interpretation?

    • patrick

      I appreciate your insights. I have gleaned some things from you and am thinking over old things in light of these. Very interesting. I still haven’t budged on doctrine though, but am starting to see how you see it too.

      Just because two words are used back-to-back does not make them synonomous. “red ball”, “living creature”, chai nephesh”. I don’t get it. The fact that living is being applied to nephesh in the concordance definition could be somewhat misleading. The two words, “chai” and “nephesh”, used in conjunction frequently could be mistaken to mean souls are, by definition, living; but in actuality the soul is living because it has received God’s breath. It is the Spirit that makes alive (Joh.6:63). You had mentioned the common confusion between nephesh and ruahk that too often takes place – is this to what you were making reference?

      If I were you, I would ask myself about the implications of the use of “consciousness” in light of absence of much Scriptural support – I mean, what does it do to your doctrine if you subtract it out of it? Does it make it ineffective, or weaken it significantly? If so, then I would start looking for motives behind relying on the conscious aspect of life.

      The animated/vigorous part of chai (life) comes from the ruahk (spirit), not the nephesh (soul). Note that it was the Spirit of God (not His Nephesh) that was hovering (moving vigorously/ hovering/energizing) the face of the waters in Gen.1. The Hebrew definition for spirit includes this aspect of animation or locomotion.

    • patrick

      I understand living waters to literally mean living waters.

      I interpret Job 7:7, speaking of sight and life, as meaning when he dies his soul will go unconscious. Sleeping people can’t see. A sleeping soul is a dead soul (that’s the part that confuses me – I can’t comprehend, but that is what the Scriptures say repeatedly).

      Isa.26:19 is a big resurrection passage. The souls of the righteous dead (non-martyred) will be raised from sleep (death) out of AB. Note the terrestrial aspect of the resurrection in the passage – to the feet on the earth, as I have been saying. Souls need to stay on earth, not yo-yoing up and down.

      Dan.12 is also a resurrection passage. Israel (including the Church’s non-martyrs) evangelizing the world in the last days. These verses tend to support soul sleep, just as defined throughout the OT and NT. Apart from the ruahk, the nephesh is dead (asleep – you know, Joh.11:11-14, “Lazrus sleeps – let’s go wake him up/Lazarus is dead” – see also Acts 7:60, Acts 13:36, 1Cor.7:39, 1Cor.11:30, 1Cor.15:6, 1Cor.15:18, 1Cor.15:20, 1Cor.15:51, 1The.4:13, 1The.4:14, 1The.4:15, 2Pet.3:4) because the ruahk is the soul’s life – the presence of the spirit makes the nephesh chai. The life is in the blood. The blood needs breath (ruahk). Try stop breathing and see what happens. It is not your personality that throws the fit – it’s your spirit! If there is such a thing as a living creature, and there is certainly also such a thing as a dead (mooth) creature (nephesh)…

    • patrick

      I can go so far with the life/consciousness thing, and you make a good point about sleep/death and conscious/alive, but the parameters for life, according to the Scriptures, are having a body that possesses independent locomotion that is brought on by the breath of life (spirit) flowing through a network of contained blood. This affords us having a nephesh begin to develop from the womb up until the spirit departs, where further development is restricted until the Spirit re-enters our regenerated bodies and further development commences again. We keep our nephesh because it has all our discernments about good and evil.

    • patrick

      Breath, spirit – it’s all the same – ruahk! The spirit has no good/evil nature. It does have an angry aspect to it, but that is not a sin (Be angry and do not sin). The spirit of the wicked returns to God just as Ecc. states. In the future, at the GWT Judgment, those spirits will be given back to their respective souls so that they can be judged while alive (see Rev.20:5) – the dead will live again in order to be judged. There is nothing wrong with their spirits – they remain imperishable and strong. But the nephesh dominated the spirit by insisting that the flesh should remain weak through unrepentant sins and thus “wasting their lives”.

      Before I answer anything about AB and Mamre (actually it’s not Mamre, but Ephron – sorry), I will first ask you a question: How old is the earth?

    • patrick

      Isa.53 is poetry: That why it says “all we LIKE sheep”. See, I shouldn’t try to take that literally because the Scriptures have already made the distinction that it is not literal. Actually, when you think about it, you are making a very good case for my “literal insistence, unless otherwise specified” approach. Think about it. If Isaiah is hear waxing poetically, and we have to watch out for figurative zingers popping out without warning, as you say, then why does he say LIKE sheep, instead of saying ARE sheep? You see, at the one and only point where we know that, historically, this passage departs from the literal, the figurative exception authorization flag is waved!

      Score one figurative point for Patrick with high fives all around! The crowd literally goes wild!

    • Jay Altieri

      I’m not dogmatic about how old the earth is. I wasn’t there and can’t say that I know. I’m ok with Gen 1 being non-literal and I’m ok with it being a normal 7 day week. Don’t know. Perhaps each “day” was an age. Or perhaps there is a gap of millions of yrs between each literal 24hr day. Or perhaps (my favorite-if you’re making me pick) perhaps there is a gap after 1:1 +before 1:2. Or perhaps the whole deal was straight up 7normal days.

      I like the gap because it appears to treat the text seriously (how can there be millions of yrs between plants created on the 3rd day yet sun not till the 4th?), but it also reconciles geological and natural evidence. Grand canyon, light years of star rays, fossils. I don’t buy the flood made the GC in 40 days, I don’t think God implanted fossils as a red herring to fool us. The rocky earth is probably very old, but not the current system of created life. I do generally think that Adam (literal first man) was created about 5-10k yrs ago. I reject Ussher’s chronology, I think there are gaps in the genealogy, they didn’t write down every single guy, just the highlights.

      Patrick said that wicked’s spirit remains imperishable (#142). What about returning to dust? Was that just figurative?Did God only intend the body but not the WHOLE man to return to dust? (Job 10:9; Job 17:16; Job 34:15; Ecc 3:20). The curse of sin was spirit death as well as body death. My understanding is holistic.

      Ecc 3:20 hey I just found a new favorite verse. I was looking about return to dust and I discovered that in the OT ALL men go to ONE place. According to v19, animals go there too.
      Subdividing the fate of the dead at the time of Solomon into Hades and AB is inaccurate, they are together in ONE PLACE (the grave). Either this verse is mistaken or Luke 16 is a parable.

      Pls post back at me, right quick. I was reprimanded for multiple posts. I’m supposed to only do one at a time.

    • Jay Altieri

      I respect your interpretation of Eph 4:8. Sounds like you are saying that the “gifts given to men” were the gifts of the spirit given to the church. Correct? For my view, in addition to Eph 4 how about Luke 9:31, but read it in Greek. It says that they were talking about His “exodus” that He was about to perform. Most Eng translations read this as death, but when any Israelite hears the word “exodus” (which literally means departure) they cannot help but think of millions of people in a place of bondage breaking out and departing to a place of liberty. I propose that this exodus is the ascension from the grave after the res. of Jesus.

      My theory is that at this time soul (mind) and spirit(immaterial aspect) both ascended with Jesus. This is the calling of John 5 for which for you agreed mentions 3 events (1 at v 25 and 2 at v29). But you are seeing v25 as being the temporary resurrection of recently dead folks per Mat 27. Correct? The res of v25 is followed up in John 5:26. Does Jesus give a temporary bodily reanimation to die again only with a few select recently dead people? Also note John 5:24 the verse just before, they HAVE eternal life, they pass from death to life. But are you saying that the life being specified here was only temporary and these people died again? It bothers me that it would only be a select few, it bothers me that they would have died again. I see John 5:25 as more universal and eternal.

      For ascension from the grave, how about Ps 30:3 and Ps 40:2. Mark 4:32 tells a parable about the church. It says the church ascends in greek, although this is a parable, it may be a subtle poetic hint. 100s of times Scripture speaks of people ascending to Jerusalem. This is geographically accurate, Jeru is up on top of the mountains. You must walk up hill to get there. Jeru is also a metaphor for heaven in Heb 12:22, we have come there. The very next verse Heb 12:23 appears to vouch for spirits in heaven.

    • patrick

      Regardless of the way “press” (biazotai) is used in Luk.16:16, I do not believe it changes the context of “The law and the prophets were until John (the Baptist)”. The verse still denotes a dramatic demarcation from the OT economy (or interpretation). John’s message of repentance was the same as the OT message of the prophets, but he, unlike the former prophets (who were searching for when and what manner of time Messiah would come – 1Pet.5?), was saying the kingdom of heaven had arrived with the Messiah and His ministry. The violence done against Him and John by the religious faction during the process does not change the fact that the Paradigm had already come according to the Word. Had they not persecuted them this would not be evident, but these two were preaching a radically different interpretation (obviously) of God’s commandments than what the status quo preached. The fleshy law was revealed under the light of true spirituality. The Pharisees, not recognizing their Savior, nor desiring to lose their own authority, therefore reacted with violence toward Messiah. I’ll grant you that Yeshua’s death and subsequent resurrection had its own dramatic impact on the spiritual world, but to say John and Yeshua were under the OT economy is not correct other than to say Yeshua came to fulfill the law – but the law He fulfilled was to love the Lord with all His heart, soul, strength, and His neighbor as Himself, which, of course, was only the revelation of the parameters Old Covenant in the light of Messiah, which makes the Old Covenant New.

      I was reprimanded for multiple posts as well. Unfortunately, I am still several posts behind your latest 2 posts when I was (rightly) asked not to multi-post. I suppose we have been rather hoggish with our prior content. I think it denotes a certain zeal for the word of God on our part though. Michael was very polite in his request.

    • patrick

      The story of Laz & the rich man stands as truth in every respect. I believe Yeshua revealed truth to the Pharisees so they should be held under condemnation (I wouldn’t say they were arch enemies – we wrestle not against …). You should check the Harmony of the Gospels for the order of events around this story. Yeshua, almost certainly, was speaking the story while His friend Lazarus (Mary & Martha’s bro) was dead. When Yeshua then departed for Bethany, he went to raise Lazarus from the dead. The Pharisees, after just having heard Yeshua’s story, would have put the 2 (story & resurrection) together & actually realized that He had predicted to them what He was about to do in terms of Laz. He was actually telling them (hardening hearts?) that they would not believe even if Laz was raised from the dead. The Pharisees, we are told, were lovers of money. The rich man’s own lifestyle & personal testimony (he marginalized Moses and the prophets), was pointed right at the Pharisees. The Pharisees certainly would have identified with the rich man – a righteous soul, in their eyes, blessed by God with an abundance; conversely, they would have identified Laz as a sinner having been cursed by God. When Yeshua explained that Laz rested in AB, while the rich man languished in torment, well, they would have flipped out! These guys were always busy justifying themselves in the sight of men, but their doings were an abomination to God (they marginalized Moses & the prophets by making their own set of laws that made them rich – such as permitting a man to divorce his wife – a thing which Moses originally instituted because men compelled him to do so). They would have quickly understood the implications Yeshua was making, thus the Pharisees also plotted to kill Laz. This is no coincidence – the two Lazarus’ being mentioned in such close proximity. Yeshua locked them in on their path to destruction (He knows how to reserve the unjust until the day of judgment to be punished).

    • Jay Altieri

      Varied thoughts from previous posts+questions:
      Heb 12:1-3 is actually a great metaphor when viewed in greater context. Jesus is the runner who first completes the marathon, but instead of going home, remains at the finish line to encourage the other runners to cross it and enjoy their own prizes. Is our prize death without thinking? Or do we currently HAVE eternal life (present tense genitive possessive)?

      Also consider Col 3:4, this is very similar to 1Thes 4:14, saints appear WITH Christ. In short all of the resurrection verses say that we will break forth from the grave by the power of Yeshua, yet 2000yrs later it has not happened. I see the already-not yet tension so common in the NT at play here. The soul+spirit have been redeemed but the body still waits.

      Dry bones of Eze 37 is figurative for the regathering and salvation of national ethnic Israel. I am not replacement. Currently the bones of Israel have lost hope (Eze 37:11). This is because they reject Messiah and followed after the heresy of Talmud. Paul tells us this is for the benefit of Gentiles.

      But God has not reneged on his promise to Abraham, eventually the bones (figurative for the unsaved nation) jitter and come together, and are built up over a period of time (long enough time period that Eze can watch and record). This is not the actual resurrection at the coming of Christ because that event happens in a twinkle. Eze 37:8 the bones had regathered but still had no life, definitely not the resurrection at the Parousia. Possibly this is where we are at today, Israel is regathered in her land but is without Jesus’ life. Then God breathes on the dead body and “all Israel shall be saved” per Rom 11:26. I don’t think this vison is applicable to the intermediate state.

      Patrick, if you click my name you can find an email on my website, and we can take some of the tangent issues off Michael’s AB blog. We’re burning a lot of characters with stuff that may not be relevant.

    • patrick

      Ussher has all generations (excpt Cainan, Luk.3:36) until the Egypt Captivity, which we know the duration of. Time given in yrs btwn entering Palestine and Sol’s temple dedication. Succession of kings is right on, comparing Kngs and Chrns (2 sep dating systems used). Dan’s 70 wks takes the chron to 1st Advent. Milnial Reign is 2nd Sab Age (the 1st at Creation) w/ 6K yrs (6 ages) btwn Sabs accounted for perfectly (per above) according to literal Scriptures.

      Wicked spirits imperishable: Adam returned to dust 70 yrs prior to 1st Sab Day’s end, as God said. Spiritual death – oxymoron. Where is spiritual death mentioned? Do fallen angels die? Man’s spirit is as it should be (but needs God’s Spirit to perfect/receive back glory) – man’s soul is the problem – it has the will that rebels against God. Self-awareness came at the fall (eyes opened) due to loss of glory – that’s as close as I get to “spiritual death”. I believe “spiritual separation” is a better term. Flesh, after the fall, went weak. Man fell immediately after eating, but Gen.2:17 refers to returning to dust. 1 Day = 1K yrs. Adam died 930 yrs & w/in the (litrl) Day. Only the body goes to dust. Spirit came from God, not dust. Soul forms thru experience while alive – not from dust. Spirit/soul involve no phys matter – immaterial – things not seen are eternal (2Cor.4:18).
      2k words 2 small!

      1 place: Sheol – big cave w/ compartmnts – 1 key opens/shuts. Yeshua said “the gates of Hades won’t prevail” – will the Church smash the gates and attack? Those gates are for keeping things in, not out. “Gates will not prevail” means the Church (souls) will come out of Hades (AB) one day – Messiah has the key. Place of Torment/AB (combined) occupies less space than planet earth, where all graves are. Your 1 PLACE (grave) is bigger than my 1 PLACE (Sheol). Ecc.3:19 just states both man & beast die. Both feed the dust w/ bodies, but I don’t believe Scriptures make clear the locale of animals’…

    • Jay Altieri

      Ok, you agree Isa 53 is poetry and I agree that it is flagged with simile language (prepesitional kaph). But the point is that sometimes poetry is evocative. It is not always “flagged” as you say. Sticking to the sheep simile (because everyone understands that people are sometimes likened to sheep for their following habit) look at 1Chron 21:17; Jer 25:34-36; Eze 34. My point is that flagging is not mandatory, you need to read context and use common sense. Common sense tells me that kings didn’t take weapons of war down to sheol with them. Some non-literal unflagged language is occurring. You need to use common sense, not blind literalism.

      I like your suggestion to use biblical language. We won’t go wrong if we stick to the vocab of Word. At your bequest, I will drop “conscious” and go with “thoughts”+”knowledge.” Before the Res people had no thoughts after death per Ecc 9:5 and Ecc 9:10. This prohibits Ab and Dives from talking, also prohibits dead kings from gossiping in Ez32 and Is14. After the Res believers live even though they die (John 11:25-26). Notice the believers NEVER die. Even though the body dies, the person (soul-personality) does not die. I don’t think this change in vocab changes anything in my thesis. It might even be more strict, as some level of thinking is requisite even in sleep and coma within the subconscious.

      In post 124 you said sheol stirring the dead to speak (as in Ezek32) matches Lk16 to a tee. Not really. In Eze the dead in sheol are talking to each other+to the king of Babylon who just joined them. In Lk16 the dead in hades (Grk translation for sheol) are making an international roaming call to AB.

      In post 125 you said about thrones in sheol ” a place of distinction is given to kings.” This is contraindicated by Ecc 9:2. Death is the equalizer of all men.

      Do you agree that sheol and abaddon are synonymous?
      See Job 26:6; Prov 15:11; Prov 27:20

    • Jay Altieri

      You have mentioned dead people returning to suffer the GTrib. This does not fit within my system at all. I am post-trib rapture/resurrection. The dead rise at the same time that the living are caught up (1Thes 4:16-17). It all happens at the Parousia, the glorious Coming, which is AFTER the tribulation. Nobody has a reincarnation for a second chance to prove themselves during the GTrib.
      Today is the day of salvation (2Cor 6:2). No second chances.

      Yes, when Yeshua returns (after GTrib) all believers will be bodily resurrected and bound forever to Jesus. Not literally with a rope, but we will be at His side always. This seems to preclude a resuscitation for second chance at martyrdom during the GTrib.

      When saints are resurrected they are given an immortal body, perfected and like the body of Jesus. Such a body cannot die, so it wouldn’t make sense sending them into the GTrib to become martyrs. They are unkillable.

      Are you advocating a resurrection/reincarnation with a mortal body to prove themselves via martyrdom? What verses do you draw that idea from? It doesn’t sound correct, but I’ll listen if you have Scriptural backup.

    • patrick

      The manner of His exodus: Luk.9:31 is likely in reference to the manner of His death, as also used in 2Pet. He was opening of Scriptures to them, same as He did for those spirits whom He went and proclaimed to in Sheol (1Pet.). Note that “spirits” here (1Pet.) is highly irregular (only place where spirits are in Sheol other than bound angels), but the passage is in reference to men, not angels. These are those to whom no law ever came – antediluvians – who were only then brought under the law by His proclamations to them. Their spirits were trapped under the water of the Mabool. The Mabool was specifically designed to be a spirit-catcher – No AB at that time. AB was established about the time men started dying in mass after the Mabool.

      Joh.5:25 & Mat.27:5 are likely the same. Yeshua gave a temporary res as a last call to convert Jews/reveal that forgiveness was yet extended. Compare w/ John 5:20-21. No time is reckoned in AB. Personally, I believe when we die it will be as if no time has passed before we stand resurrected – it won’t matter if you’ve been in AB for 6k yrs, or 6 secs – it will all seem a short time from death to res.

      Ascension from the grave: Psa.30:3 & Psa.40:2: Psa.30 is a bad translation – word rendered “grave” is actually “sheol”. Translators have really botched sheol/hell (SH#7585) with grave (6900 – kevura) in the OT. This is the major problem in untangling what the Scriptures actually say. Psa.40 is not necessarily in ref to death. Great res. chapter if taken figuratively.

      Nowhere does it say that anyone ascends to the NJ. The NJ comes down. We will ascend up into atmospheric clouds (part of the shamayim) at the Rapture to meet Him. Before that time, we WILL ascend to that literal OT city in the res, being led from the north country (Jer.). Jerusalem has always been God’s earthly seat, even in Gen.(Melchizedek). The NJ will make it official again.

    • patrick

      Is 1Chr.21:17 poetry? But see 1Chr.17:7 – David tends 1 flock, then another. Jer.25:34/see Jer.23:2-4; Eze.34/Eze.34:31. You say it is childish to be a literalist – so with a child’s faith I believe every word from my Father. To comprehend spiritual matters, locales, etc… using earthy perspectives (common sense) is impossible (John 3:12). To explain the spiritual using the earthly, most difficult. Trust in the Lord … lean not …

      Consciousness & Ecc.9:5&10: Solomon advised epicurean living (Ecc.8 & 9:6&7), displayed no wisdom in disobeying God’s marriage ordinances, unwisely pursued strong drink, was a hedonist pursuing the fullest life, built himself a better house than the Lord’s, built temples to foreign gods, his many wives led him astray, he feared death (it meant he would lose all he had under the sun), did not believe in afterlife; He, like all Israel after the flesh, misunderstood wisdom (he’s an antitype of the covering cherub, making the same mistakes). Solomon had fleshy wisdom – Pharisees embraced his ideas. As Sampson “after the flesh” had great physical strength, but was weak in self-control (spiritual strength), so Solomon was given great earthly wisdom (managerial skills), but lacked spiritual wisdom (brotherly kindness). Rehoboam’s bad decision proves that. My point: Solomon was not spiritual; he only understood the “here & now”. His emphasis, therefore, was on the present – enjoy life. I’m not taking his afterlife advice any more than I would Job’s friends’ advice – all unrighteous souls will be turned into the LoF. The smoke of their TORMENT will rise 4ever & ever.

      Death is the equalizer: These kings on thrones may not be men. I personally believe them to be nephilim &/or their fallen angel sires.

      Sheol & Abaddon are not the same. Sheol = the abode of Death & the dead. The firstborn of Death is Destruction (Destroyer/Abaddon). The words “destruction” & “corruption” are highly confused in English translations. They…

    • patrick

      are equivalent.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick said “mistaken to mean souls are, by definition, living; but the soul is living because it has received God’s breath. It is the Spirit that makes alive.” You seem to be saying that nephesh is only alive because of the spirit. I disagree. I am saying that nephesh is by definition living. Animals are said to have nephesh (Gen 1:20; Gen 1:30; Prov 12:10), but God didn’t breath on them. Animals have no spirit, only man is tripartite made in image of God. Patrick said “vigorous part of chai (life) comes from the ruahk.” Chai is also used of the animal world (Gen 1:20; Gen 1:25; Gen 6:19; too many to list- KJV translates chai as beast 73x). Animals do have breath, as mammals breath air with lungs, but they do not have spirit. Thus since animals have nephesh and animals have chai, but animals do not have spirit; then nephesh does NOT derive its life from spirit. Point being life and nephesh in people is not dependant on the spirit. Rauch and nephesh are 2 different things, I don’t see the connection that you are trying to make. What verse leans you to think that nephesh w/o rauch is dead?

      Patrick said “A sleeping soul is a dead soul.” Again I totally agree, except the “sleeping” part is metaphor. It is a euphemism. These are those unflagged figures of speech, not literal sleeping. Sleeping people still have thoughts and knowledge. It is illegal to kill and bury a sleeping a sleeping person. Where did you get the mooth nephesh from? I can’t find it. I feel that is oxymoron.
      Patrick said “spirit has no good/evil nature.” I disagree the spirit part of man is Godlike and without sin. Gal 5:17 As the flesh is fallen, the
      spirit of believers is not prone to evil. 1Pet 1:23 and 1 John 3:9 exemplify that sin does not come from the spirit. However, this is only applicable for believers, because only believers have a living spirit as a new creation. The spirit of the rest of humanity is literally, ontologically dead.

      Sorry, i’m way behind on…

    • James-the-lesser

      Now, if you develop this tripartite insight theologically into traducianism, you are well on your way in understanding this on-going process which will enhance the meaning of First Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” (ASV)

    • patrick

      pst 148 – Do we HAVE eternal life: Whom he foreknew… The perfect pattern of who we will be in Messiah (conformed to His image) is predestined – a done deal. This is the only way to get over the eternal aspect of our lives as far as I know. I can handle everlasting (beginning, but no end), but it is difficult for me to grasp my own eternal nature, unless it’s God’s foreknowledge of me. Eternal & everlasting are used interchangeably in Scripture. Not sure how to handle that one, because, to me, there is a HUGE difference. What is your take on that one?

      Excellent question about 1Thes 4:14! I take 1&2Thes as tribulation books. The Thessalonians were upset because of martyrdoms going on. Only until you acknowledge those resting under the altar in heaven can you realize Paul is smack-on correct. Martyrs return with Messiah. A good indication of who God considers His witnesses under the altar! Graves are yet to be opened, but the 7th (last) trump will sound one day and THEN will be brought to pass the (OT) saying, “… oh HADES, were is your victory? (1Cor.15:55)” In other words, Hades will prevail over dead (non-martyred) Church souls until the the last trump sounds.

      YOU are part of the dry bones, because YOU are a part of Israel, right? Don’t go Replacement on me now! If those (dead) bones ever rejected Messiah, then they never were a part of Israel, don’t you agree?

      God hasn’t reneged on His promise, but those souls are in AB – awaiting the promise. He’s not slack. The twinkle is the amount of time it takes all to receive the Spirit. Bodies are reassembled, God calls for souls and breath, And bam! in a twinkle we are awake & standing. Much of what you have said figuratively I would not necessarily dismiss – I believe there is a figurative aspect as well, but the literal holds the meat & potatoes. The figurative, to me, is like icing on the cake. First the literal, then the figurative that complies.

      I am a few posts behind you – hope you can…

    • patrick

      You said, “dead rise at the same time the living are caught up”. See warning in 1The.4:13-15. The dead PRECEDE the living. Not by only a twinkle(!) – that’s the split-second needed to receive the Spirit. Check out the word “then (epeita)” in 1The.4:17. Epeita can means 2,000+ yrs (1Cor.15:23). “Twinkle/then” lends immediacy that conflicts w/ “by no means precede”. Watch out! Paul just warned you (see also 1Pet.4:12): Yeshua descends in clouds w/ a shout & trump blast; Shout raises bodies – bodies are reassembled (bone/sinew/flesh) & stand on earth (fleshy/dead to sin); Trump raises souls from AB – souls enter bodies (still no life). Spirit descends in a twinkle (Eze.37:10); We will not see Messiah (yet) – only a cloud w/ glory (think Exodus); We will have authority like Yeshua had while bodily on earth; Martyrs will have bodies (also standing in the valley of bones) that will be caught up into the cloud; Mid-Trib confirmation time for God’s house, where judgment begins. The GT IS the judgment; Time to do His will, walk His walk. The testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy. Rapture happens before the Bowls (3.49yrs after res). 2nd chance? Born again!

      Yeshua appears in cloud 3.5yrs before the GT ends as Shepherd of His flock + He alone tramples the winepress. If we die in the res (Rev.2:10) the 2nd death will not harm us (Rev.2:11 – explain your view on this). This is our immortality. If martyred, we will be caught up to the cloud to join the Lord & martyred bros. Our bodies won’t be dead, even if beheaded – the preferred method (Rev.20:4 – how do you interpret if you aren’t present on earth w/ the beast?) No mortal bodies. A viable army of God, formerly separated across time, is assembled w/ unity commanded (GT helps unity). The Bride’s righteous deeds are done on earth, making herself ready for the Groom; Ruth in the field; Sign of the Son of Man; morning star rises in our hearts; When we see Him we will be like Him; Enter the Promised…

    • James-the-lesser

      Clearly the use of “fallen asleep” is just another way of saying, “died.” 1Thes 4:14

      Concerning: The word “then (epeita)” in 1The.4:17. Epeita can means 2,000+ yrs, and tying it in with (1Cor.15:23). Excellent point, Patrick!

      Soul sleep is at best a myth, and at worst heresy. 🙂

    • Jay Altieri

      Good insight small james.

      I think we might have levels of agreement. Maybe you can expand your thoughts from #156, we are listening. I am traducianist, but perhaps not in the traditional way. CMP mentioned this on a different page, I commented about a month ago here:

    • Jay Altieri

      Hello Patrick, I’m way behind in commentary to your posts, sorry. Varied thoughts here:

      RE#125+153 Nephalim as special class of individuals? Isn’t this a distinction among the dead that my previous post said is unbiblical. How do you justify? Everybody is equalized by the grave, even Nephalim assuming that they are human. Now if you believe in hybrid human/demon as Nephalim, then why did they die? Angelic beings are not cursed with death under Adam. If Nephalim were wiped out “without trace” in the flood, why are they back again in Numb 13:33? Instead of this sci-fi nephalim business, I prefer nephalim as humans with great arrogance.

      When you say that the flood was caused by Nephalim (who are a different race of nonhuman), I think you refuse blame. You are passing the buck, you are pointing the finger at somebody else (demons?). I think it is much more biblical to say that the flood was OUR fault. Humans, my ancestors and yours, rebelled against God. We were proud, giants in ego, because of the sin of Adam (not Nephalim/demon sires) the world was destroyed.

      RE#126 pls define ontologically, the difference between body/soul/spirit in your theology. I’ve given detailed description of my schema, how do you define these? You appear to be blending soul+spirit.

      RE#144+149 Compartments in the 1 place. Ecc 3:19-20 which compartment of the one place do animals go to? Notice in Ps 49:14 sheep go to sheol. Do farm animals go to the happy side or the nasty side? I think this is the grave. One place for ALL humans and beasts. No metaphysical dimensions are intended, you watch too many movies 🙂

      RE#147 “Yeshua revealed truth to the Pharisees”? Contraindicated by Mk 4:33-34 ONLY parables to the public; Mat 13:11 Truth NOT given to Pharisees; Mat 7:6 bad idea to give them truth.

      You never told me about Mamre and AB. Thanks for your study+thought on all this. Although we disagree on many details, we can agree that Jesus is Lord.

    • patrick

      Nephilim = hybrids. Demons aren’t fallen angels. Use of “bene elohim” (sons of God) always refers to malukim (angels), including Gen.6:1-4. References in Jude & Peter give full support. Fossil evidence of giants is suppressed, but well documented in many historical writings, such as Josephus (including myth), as well as fossil evidence. Megolithic structures indicate either advanced tech that has been lost, or superhuman strength involved. They were a special class of men – very violent according to all that Scriptures provide. Sethites marrying Cainites would produce no special men, just bad marriages as we see today. Being part human, they were mortals & subject to death. Several possibilities exist in terms of why they reappeared (which Gen.6:4 affirms): Naamah (Gen.4:22) of Cain’s lineage (last generation before Mabool) may have been Ham’s wife. Not sure why she is mentioned in the genealogy otherwise. Midrash states Ham’s wife was impregnated prior to embarking with the result being the birth of Canaan, whom Noah cursed. Either way, all post-Mabool giants stem from lineage of Ham, & specifically Canaan. Fertility rituals, based on concerns about decreased longevity after the Mabool, would have arisen to try to improve man’s genetic stock. Proliferation of giants would have been a natural result. Many references in OT about giants according to their tribes.

      All the world (especially man) was wicked – not blame-shifting. But God required a pure strain of man to survive to bring His Son into the world.

      Body/soul/spirit: I posted that before, but it didn’t show up (remember?) – I will try again if I can find it. Soul & spirit are very closely associated (Heb.4:12) like joints & marrow (tendons & bones).

      I don’t know where animals go. Scriptures don’t address. These views are older than movies.

      Truth to the Pharisees: Nicodemus was not of the 12.

      Jesus IS Lord, brother!

      You are not addressing my questions to you!

    • Jay Altieri

      Are you actually up to date? I’m still way behind, will catch your ques in order.
      RE#146 JohnBap+Jesus not under OT economy? I appreciate that you are trying to reconcile dead people talking in Lk16 with no talking or thinking fromEcc/Ps/Job. But saying that Jesus+JohnBap were not under the OT economy is wrong approach.
      Why did Jesus (Mat 8:4) tells lepers to go show to priests+make sacrifice per Lev 13:16-17; Lev 14:3-4? Why was Jesus circumcised on 8day per brit Milah? Why was Jesus presented in the temple at 40 days per Ex 13:2? (FYI on Pidyon Haben -http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/candelma.htm) Why did He obey the Sabbath per the Law(but not per the rabbanim)? Why did He keep the festivals per Lev 23? Why did He keep kashrut per diet laws?
      How can you claim that John+ Jesus were not under the OT economy? Changes to this economy come AFTER Pentecost when Peter sees a sheet with a bunch of critters, and Paul tells Galatians not to cut it off and Romans not to fret over day of the week.

      Lk 16:16 “until John” John’s message started in 29ad (Lk 3:1). We know from concrete Roman sources that Tib ruled from 14-37ad, so 15th yr=29ad. Jesus gets bapt + starts his ministry about then. What the verse says to me is that the prophets of old had a vague expectation of messiah, but no details. John actually had a name +face. HS revealed to John the details that Jesus will bapt w/ HG (Mat 3:11). That is a Pentecost prophecy 3.5yrs early. That Jesus was God’s lamb(John 1:29). This is particularly insightful. A lamb is an animal of sacrifice, lamb’s die to atone for sin. John was the 1st of OT prophets to get the big picture. He was the 1st to preach the good news of Jesus salvation from death. Jesus’ resurrection changed the paradigm, not Johns’ preaching. It must be ALL about Jesus, claiming that it is about John is near idolatry, for he is just a man.

      Patrick, Pls email me jay at drymalla dotcom. Blessings.

    • Jay Altieri

      RE #146Timing of Lk16 about same as John 11, I’m ok with that. I too have coordinated the harmony and see no obstacle here. But it’s not relevant, Laz Bethany does not equal Laz beggar. Laz Beth was wealthy, not poor. He was buried in a cave tomb-very high class 99% of Israelites were buried in hole in the ground. Only the rich have a rockcut family tomb. Also John 11:19 Jews come to grieve and console. Pharisees were respecters of persons, they would not come to poor house. This is a prominent family. Laz of Beth has sisters and a household (John 12:1-2), while Laz Beggar has no one, dogs are his best friend. Mary uses expensive lotion (John 12:3), poor beggarly families would not have access to nard. My point is that Laz Bethany and Laz beggar are NOT same person. I think you conflate stories just because they have the same name.

      RE#149 You said:Adam died with in 1st 1000yr day. Now you’re being non literal. When God said in that very day you will surely die, I think He meant it literally. Same daylight hours as planet circles the sun, Adam’s spirit died. You think ‘day’ is metaphor for an age of 360,000days (Hebrew calendar of course). In order to be literal instead of having said “in this yom you shall die”, God should have said “in this aleph you shall die.” Aleph is Hebrew for 1000. Moses used it in Pentateuch many times. Why does Moses now use yom, when he meant aleph? Patrick my friend, you made a big deal about being literal, and now you’re being figurative. I think that many people have bought the lie of the devil in Gen 3:4, you shall NOT surely die. People claim that the spirit of man is still alive.

    • patrick

      God did breathe life into animals (compare Gen.2:7 with Gen.6:17). The latter vs. makes no distinction between man & animal, but lumps them under the same umbrella – “ALL flesh wherein the breath (ruahk) OF life (chai)”. They definitely have spirit (ruahk) if they are alive. Spirit OF life; spirit = life.

      I agree with you in terms of the soul/spirit/flesh as a component of man being in the image of God (Father-soul, Son-flesh, Spirit-spirit), but the defining & unique (non-animal) characteristic, according to Gen.1:27 & Gen.5:3 is actually the outward form of man; He made us in His image. That word (image – tselem) is the same used for a “graven idol” and means a representation, phantom, likeness, semblance, image. Yeshua chose His image before the foundation of the kosmos. He came as Ambassador from the Father bearing our likeness. He is the Seed. He could take our place of punishment because He was like us in appearance. The Last Adam. The bene elohim (malukim) are also in His image. Cherubim and seraphim are not & should not be lumped into the same class, although they are part of the heavenly host (but not angels/malukim). The malukim are our fellow servants and of our brethren the prophets (Rev.22:9) – also made in God’s chosen image.

      You are correct about spirits being good – I mis-spoke – what I meant was that they are all the same (good). Even the unrighteous have good spirits (as I was saying), albeit repressed by their fleshy-natured nephesh.

      Maybe I should ask you, what function does the spirit serve? Have you checked out Job 33:4? Please comment. I feel it’s pretty important to understand the Spirit is the ordained life-giving part of the Godhead. Yeshua received the Spirit at His baptism before any miracles, such as raising the dead, could be performed.

      You make several good points regarding Lazarus’ family background. Thanks! I believe my argument still stands regarding the Pharisee’s reaction whether these 2 were the same,…

    • Jay Altieri

      RE#149 For spiritual death see Rom 7:9 Paul was physically and soulfully alive. Eph 2:1 people in Ephesus were physically and soulfully (of the mind) alive. They had been spiritually dead. Eph 2:5 quickened us-animated us-brought us to life. Not dead in body. Not dead in soul See Rom 2:9 I like KJV “every soul [psyche] of man that does evil” Thus evil people have a soul. As we have previously discussed, this is self evident because soul means living.

      Again Col 2:13 Paul is preaching to bodily living people. They are dead in spirit, which is an equally real ontological structure analogous to the body but in a different dimension.
      1 Cor 15:44-46 notice difference between Psychikos (soulish- of the mind) vrs pneumatikos (spiritual -of the spirit). KJV translating psychikos as ‘natural’ is bad. That makes it sound like the body. This is the soul- the mind, personality, ego. Everybody has one, even Hitler. But only believers have the spirit-because spirit is from God.

      Thus is disagree with your statement “man’s spirit is as it should be.”

      #149 I agree gates of hades keep people inside. The grave is inescapable and permanent (Job 7:9 come up no more). But that’s not the end of the story, the hallelujah part is that Jesus conquered the grave. By Him we can live. Except you think that Jesus has not yet fully delivered on the promise. Not yet released the prisoners. I say that Jesus has ALREADY conquered death, you think that victory is still future.
      Correct me if I err, but it appears to me that your Jesus is too small. He is not yet Lord of Lords, because in your system AB still stifles believers who are the bride and wife of Christ. In my system, yes the body awaits resurrection, but the person is with Xp.

      #159 I disagree with James Les about soul sleep as heresy. I think it is incorrect for the NT believer, but I wouldn’t call it heresy.

      I’m not sure I’ll ever catchup. Pls email for some tangent topics (adam’s generations, mid trib…

    • patrick

      … or not.

      JohnBap+Jesus not under OT ecomony: Yeshua came to fulfill the technical requirements of the law, as you have well documented. As I stated earlier, in this sense you are correct about Yeshua belonging to the OT economy. John was only His herald (Isa.40:3), so it’s still all about Him, not John. New perceptions about the paradigm came only after the ascension/coming of the Spirit, yes, but the Spirit was upon those men prior to that also (Luk.10:1-24), when they cast out demons who were subject to them (pre-crucifixion). THere are some very interesting statements made in this passage. Yeshua was slain before the foundation of the kosmos. This has significant meaning. The formality of conquering death in the image of man was essential to the end victory – man being born again into new life, which, in the big picture sense, is the resurrection of the dead in Messiah. Melchizedek came before Aaron. Messiah has always been Chief Priest of the former. That’s the everlasting priesthood. Aaron’s order was temporary, like Adam’s tunic of skin. Messiah’s order is permanent, a covering in glory, predetermined before the foundation of the kosmos. The OT ecomony (the parameters of love, graven in stone and leading to condemnation) are swallowed up by the former order. Messiah was merely continuing on in his ministry as High Priest of the former order in order to fulfill the technical requirements of the latter while in the flesh. He does not change.

      I am very interested in carrying on this exchange, as it helps me sharpen my focus on what I believe, plus we are sharing in harmony. I hope you are benefitting as well. I would be very concerned that if I were to go to your alternate site that the exchanges would become tedious, due to the vast amount of words I am fully confident we are both able to generate when it comes to the Scriptures.

      I am still 2 or 3 posts behind.

    • Jay Altieri

      RE#153 no poetry in 1 Chron 21:17. My point was that it uses figurative language without flagging. You were claiming all literal unless flagged. Poetry and prose may both be either literal or figurative, but statistically poetry goes figurative more frequently. I’m not down on your being literal. Overall, Literalism is a good thing. When taken to ridiculous length, it is little too wooden for my taste, I love metaphor and hyperbole. I think we should be literal UNLESS specifically flagged as you say OR the context is impossibly non-logical. EG: transparent gold in NJ is an internal contradiction-logical impossibility. If God made some new element that was like gold but transparent, then it would not be gold, it would be something else. Thus making God a liar by falsely calling it gold. Thus, since God don’t lie, it must not be woodenly literal. Notwithstanding my concerns over literalism, there are bigger issues at stake than that. Ironically, you take death as figurative. You say that people are dead in Sheol, but then next post you say they are stirred and talk to each other. Which is it? For me, death means the permanent and total cessation of life. For you it is more like a coma. The wages of sin is coma? I find it very odd that a literalist takes death so figuratively. Perhaps you disagree with my definition of death?

      If Sheol and Abbadon are not the same, then where is Abbadon? Who is there? What is it? I think you got cut off by the 2000character Nazi. Firstborn of Death? Like Death is a real guy? Not in my bible. Sheol is the grave, not a grave, but poetically for gravedom. Abbadon is destruction/corruption/ decay all of which are fair translational ideas. What happens in the grave? Bodies decompose. They go together, Abbadon is in literary terms called a metonym. It uses a key feature of the grave to describe the entity.

      I agree let’s keep the relevant stuff here. Although id love to hear from you for a proper introduction?

    • Jay Altieri

      #165 Unsaved have good spirits? Would God punish the righteous alongside the unrighteous? (Gen 18:23) Maybe He should just punish the wicked’s body +soul if they are bad, and not punish their good spirits? This is highly dualistic. Man is ENTIRELY wicked, holistically every part of man is bad. Man does not have a good bone in his body, or appropo for our talk he does not have a good spirit in his constitution. Only exception is the born again believers, who are given a new creation, a new birth, a new spirit.

      If you agree that spirit is good +sin does not come from the spirit, and if agreed that wicked are without goodness holistically en toto, then it follows that unsaved have no spirit.

      Only man is made in tselem b’elohim. God is a spirit (John 4:24). Tselem of God is not a physical manifestation. It cannot be reproduced iconicly. Gorillas and human look very close, are gorillas made in God’s image? Of course not because gorillas have no spirit.
      Spirit is godimage. Rauch/pneuma can have 2 meanings: breath or spirit.

      You ask what is function of spirit? Short answer is for communion with God. Have you read my paper yet? Body+spirit are analogous. Body has senses (sight, hearing, et al) that enable the person (psyche-soul-mind) to interact with its environment. Body provides sensory data for mind (personality) to act+react to the physical world. Spirit is similar structure but in spirit world. Spirit allows psyche to act+react with spiritual world. God is a spirit, so a spirit is necessary for communion with God. For seeing God, for hearing God an operable spirit vessel is needed. It is impossible for unsaved to understand spiritual things (1Cor 2:14), because their sensory collection apparatus of that dimension is broken.

    • patrick


      1k yr day: Non-literal? As I have already said, there is often a figurative side to the Scriptures that I have noted. Lit first, then fig, if present & noted. I am approved to take 1k yrs = 1 yom from Scriptures. Within the word (yom) an age may be implied with a supplied indicator, which is present (Psa.90:4 & 2Pet.3:8) as a 1k year Day’s duration; the death of Adam (he did not die spiritually, for spirits, by definition, do not die – but the flesh & soul do!); Personally, I can live with the 1st 6 Days being 24 hrs (the eve & the morn a day, n), however, that phrase is not used (oddly enough) for the Creation Sabbath. No formal closure is ever given for the 7th Day (an exception).

      Let me challenge you w/ the following: After a week cycles through, a new wk starts all over, right? Now apply that principle to the Scriptures, only use 1 day = 1k yrs for each Day (& Ussher’s literal chronology). The Creation Sabbath would have ended about 1k AM (Anno Mundi). Adam died at age 930 yrs, because God told Adam, “In the day you eat of it…”, which is a big check-in-the-box for proceeding, as I see it. But move ahead – The Mabool, then, came (literally/Ussher) in 1,656AM – a bit past the middle of a new 1st Day. NOW, what does Gen.1:2 (Day 1) figuratively have in common with Gen.8:9, in light of Mat.3:16? If you can assemble this conveyance, then you will find a consistent pattern throughout the Scriptures that indicates God “declaring the end from the beginning” (Isa.46:9&10). There are 7 ages to be discovered (figuratively out of the Creation Days) that represent the true dispensations of God. These foreshadow 7, 1k historical yrs that follow the Creation Days, consistently & figuratively outlined throughout the Scriptures, that tells us God’s general timetable, concluding with the 1k yrs reign of Messiah as the 2nd (7th Day) Sabbath Rest. You only get this with Usher’s chronology, but I believe you have already dismissed this as being childish.

    • Jay Altieri

      Yes Ps 90:4 & 2Pet 3:8 do speak of 1day=millennium. But not Gen3. It is not good exegesis to claim that since yom is figurative in Ps90, then it is ok to use it figurative in Gen3. Each context must stand on its own. Example: since Jesus is called a lamb in Rev 5:6, maybe lamb in Lev 14:13 is a reference to human sacrifice. If lamb was used that way over there, then it is ok to interpret lamb that same way over here.

      This is bad exegesis and totally runs bulldozer over the context. In context, Peter’s point is to be patient for the 2nd Coming. Ps 90 speaks of the eternal nature of HaShem. They are not revealing a code language to decipher the hidden meaning of prophecies given thousands of years ago in Genesis.

      God’s warning in Gen3 of Adam’s impending death was delivered directly to Adam. Adam was the referent and the object. God+ Adam were talking about boundaries and limits of human behavior. Hence, the terms and words that God used must have had sense and meaning to Adam. Or else God is a trickster. God was not talking past Adam or over his head in a cryptic riddle to which mankind would not have the key for several millennia. The Lord is not a God of riddles. God speaks the plain truth.

      Thus, Adam’s body death is not intended. God is speaking about a different sort of death, but still a literal one with which Adam would surely die the same day that he sinned.

    • patrick

      Spiritual death: Rom.8:6 speaks of carnal vs. Spirit-MINDED, which pertains to soul, not spirit. Carnality produces WILLful sep. from God (REJECTing Him in PREFERENCE for PLEASING the flesh) leading to physical death, but being Spirit-minded puts the mind (soul) in SUBJECTION to the Spirit by DENYING the flesh. Rom.7:7&8 speaks of KNOWING the law & evil DESIRES (soul), leading to death. Even Rom.7:9 speaks of the “commandment coming”, which indicates CONSCIOUS RECEPTION of the word. Paul HEARD & PERCEIVED what was evil & was thence forward ACCOUNTABLE. These are all soul-ish things. The spirit is our life – breath – animation, & that’s it – Isa.38:16. Yeshua’s spirit returned to God at the moment of death (Luk.23:46 – He breathed His last) – nothing to do with His soul. The Holy Spirit, by grafting with our spirit, gives us eternal life – see Jhn.6:63, Rom.8:2, Rom.8:10, Rom.8:11, 1Cor.15:45, 2Cor.3:6, Gal.6:8, etc.

      I believe you posted earlier that no one was spiritually alive between Adam’s fall & Messiah’s res/ascension; in Rom.7:9 Paul states that he was once alive until the law came (pre-salvation), & then he died – doesn’t this contradict your statement?

      Col.2:13 speaks of TRESPASSES (no doubt some conscious). 1Cor.15:44-46 – note the links between spirit/life. Adam was a soul who quenched the Spirit; Yeshua was a soul who gained the (life-giving) Spirit. I agree, “natural” is a bad trans, & had not known it, so thanks! I had taken it to mean fleshy, but the verse still reads good per my interpretation. The Spirit (big S) is from God, but every man also has a spirit (little s) from God, until they die – 1Cor.5:5.

      My Yeshua is your Yeshua – He’s not too small – this type of talk leads to divisions bro. He has the keys to Hades & Death & will use at the right time. Victory is still in the future like Rev. states.

      Why does Rev. make a distinction about the souls under the altar, vs. all other souls that you say are already in heaven?

    • patrick

      no poetry in 1Chr.21:17: My point:”sheep” are flagged as “God’s people” in this vs. The Scriptures therefore are saying that we may apply a fig. meaning to sheep refs wherever a lit. meaning does not otherwise make sense. What I am hearing you say is that YOU get to decide when to invoke the fig. meaning option. Dangerous. If we leave this up to men, we will not be able to agree on much & wicked men will (already have) come in & dissect(-ed) the word to no end. Man can’t possibly hope to be left in charge of such without resulting dire consequences. The conservative thing to do is to let God be our sole Instructor/Interpreter. You have to admit 1Chr.21 does indeed clear up your frequently ref’ed sheep issue – right?

      In terms of your “impossibly non-logical context” fig. invocation principle, I believe it is a dangerous usurpation on your part. I have noted several of your prior comments, such as “too sci-fi for me”, or “you watch too many movies”, etc., but we are dealing w/ spiritual realms here. I have already admitted my own ignorance to certain aspects of these realms (how can dead souls speak, etc.) because earthly principles just do not seem to always apply. They are shrouded in mystery because the principles of the phys. (logical) world just do not always apply there. But you seem to be saying, “Well, since I know nothing about translucent gold, it must be fig.” Perhaps God has refining abilities that go far beyond our own phys. world’s tech. Perhaps 24k isn’t as pure as gold can be. Perhaps real pure gold is indeed translucent.

    • Jay Altieri

      #170 “spirits do not die” How do you interpret Eze 28:18-19?
      Eze 26-27 are addressed to the city of Tyre. Your walls will collapse, the sea will beat you down, etc. These are fulfilled.
      Notice Eze 28:2-10 is addressed to the PRINCE of Tyre, not just to the city but it specifically references the prince (nageed). The prince is a man (Eze 28:9). This would be Ethbaal3. He died in Nebuchadnezzar’s attack per Josephus.

      Eze 28:11-19 is addressed to the KING (melek) of Tyre. I propose that the king is different than the prince. 2 different Hebrew words.
      The KING of Tyre was in Eden, was a covering cherub, Here is an odd one: he was created the same day as all those pretty stones. What day were rocks created? Not 6th day. This king had been on the mount of God among the stones of fire (v14). That is heaven of God’s abode. There are no stones of fire on Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Ethbaal never went to Jerusalem and certainly never went to heaven. Do you agree that this is talking about Satan, not some human? Dan 10:20 mentions prince of Persia as a demon too. So there is precedent for spiritual powers being called ruler of cities.

      Eze 28:18 ESV has very poor translation. Hebrew verb is imperfect-Future tense. I will consume you with fire. I will turn you to ash. This did not literally happen to Ethbaal. But it will happen to Satan and all unsaved. Ash (Mal 4:3).
      Eze 28:19 the verb is hayah- to exist-to be. Satan will not exist forevermore. This is the Universalist Hope. Eventually God will be all in all. The Spirit of God will be brimming overfill in all being that remain in existence.

      Thus, either Eze28:11 is Satan and spirits can die. Or Eze28:11 is Ethbaal and that man was in Eden and performed asGod’s covering cherub.

    • Jay Altieri

      I agree with Ussher+ straight forward bib chronology from Abraham forward. Ab was from Ur. We have early bronze (Akkadian period) archaeological evidence in Iraq substantiating a date circa 2300bc. That fits very well with Bible dates, Exodus early about 1450bc, United Monarchy in 11thCbc, etc. These are conservative dates, I am not a minimalist. I think we fully agree. My doubts are before 2300bc. Ussher takes literal approach to adding numbers from Adam to Noah+Ab. I think that is a bit simplistic, and I probably see gaps in genealogy, Flood till Abram leaves Haran at 75old (Gen 12:4) =465yr (lunar). This isn’t enough time to disperse at Babel, build pyramids+ have a dozen dynasties at Sumer/Akkad.

      I am not particularly opposed to the 7day=7epocs/dispensations. Remember I said that possibly 6 days of creation were literal 24hr days with evening +day, but not contiguous. Maybe there is a gap of abillion yrs between day 1+2. Enough for dinosaurs+fossils. Then another gap of billion betwn literal days 2+3, enough for Grand Canyon erosion. We can be both literal+geologically responsible.

      Carry forward to 7 dispensations. Ussher 4004BC =1AM. Today we are past 6000, should be in 7th day Millennium, but we are not. Perhaps there are gaps. But as I said before I don’t see relevance toward the intermediate state with this line of talk. Email me to continue.

      #149Yes, fallen angels eventually die in LoF. Currently fallen angels are spirit(immaterial essence) and soul(life), but no body. They are not governed by covenants given to man. They are not partakers of curse on Adam of death, nor of Jesus’ gift of eternal life. You said demons are not fallen angels? Pls clarify. What are they?

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, I’m almost caught up.
      RE#152 spirits in prison (1Pet 3:19) Never does the bible refer to man as a spirit. Saved men HAVE a new spirit, but they ARE a soul. Angelic beings (Good+bad) ARE spirits. Pneuma is used for demons+angels many times. Evil/unclean pnuema is used 54times (I counted).
      If pneuma in 1Pet 3:19 are human then this is first +only. If they are demons, then it fits with huge body of evidence. My book covers this.

      I see where you are going with Mabool as a spirit catcher because no AB yet. This is a classic dilemma for literal AB advocates. If it is ABRAHAM’s bosom, where did the righteous go before Abraham? What happened to Able+Seth? They did not get “caught” in the flood. Where did you get the idea that flood waters “catch “spirits? Bible reference pls.

      #165 breath of life Gen 2:7 and Job 33:4 the breath is neshamah. Sometimes it is related to rauch, which simply means wind. In Gen 7:22, as you noted, the 2 words are hyphenated to show synonymy. Also for synonymy see Job 4:9 neshamah=rauch. Nothing spiritual happening here, just air.

      I’m hung up on your idea that “unsaved have good spirits” (165). And “spirits never die”(170). So your theory is that Adolph Hitler had a good spirit; that he was spiritually alive. You think that Hitler was a spiritual man. You think his good spirit was approved by God. You think his spirit returned to God when he shot himself in the head inside the bunker, so that Hitler’s spirit is now with God in heaven. Common Christian sense tells us that is not true. The HS should be tugging on your strings about now telling you that something is terribly wrong with that idea. This point is a keystone. It is foundational to our disagreement.

    • Jay Altieri

      #172 Rom 8:1 “walk after spirit” is a better translation. Should not be “walk after the Spirit.” No article in Greek. Small s-your personal spirit, not HS. Same construct is used without article in Rom 8:4+9. Theseare saved people after Pentecost.

      Rom 8:2 THE Spirit of life is correctly capitalized.
      Rom 8:5 I would probably split down the middle. “people living after spirit (small s) dwell upon thoughts of THE Spirit (big S).
      I agree with you that the thinking and minding and living and walking are all functions of the psyche. Notice that the unsaved can’t walk after spirit (because it aint there). Saved have an option, sometimes we focus on the sarx, when we should be focused on pneuma.

      Rom 7:9 Whole paragraph is a personification of inanimate behaviors. Sin is not really alive. It is not even a thing, it is a verb. 7:8 Sin jumps at a chance? Sin lies dead? Don’t take this literally. Sin is not a bogeyman being that can jump or die. Major analogy here. Rom 7:3-4 Mr. Law is also personified as a tough demanding husband that allowed Mr. Sin to abuse his wife. Mr. Law is a good guy, but totally unforgiving and a stickler for detail. When his wife (humans) make a mistake about every day, he permits Mr. Sin to beat the tar out of her. Rom 7:6 the wife dies, so that she is legally no longer married to Mr. Law and is able to escape that weird household, where Mr. Sin waits in the basement to ambush her. The dead wife is able to marry another dead guy-Jesus. But He is not dead anymore, so they both LIVE happily ever after.
      That is my paraphrase of Rom 7. Pls don’t get too literal. These characters living and dying is part of the story. Not literal unless you are prepared to advocate that Sin and Law are real beings.

    • patrick

      Abaddon: I take death as lit. Script. literally says that dead souls (separated from their spirits) are stirred up in Sheol. I have no authority to challenge God’s word just because it doesn’t make perfect sense to me. His thoughts are higher than mine. A body not moving/breathing is called “dead”, but we can’t see the soul. The spirit that enabled animation has departed, which also enabled the soul to record/process info. When the spirit left the soul stopped perceiving & it was taken by a 3rd party for safe keeping. The soul can’t learn any more, but can still be activated – I don’t understand, but that’s ok! I’ll just have to trust God on that 1 & proceed. Predest. vs. free will must be fig. because it’s illogical to assume both – right? No!

      Where is Abaddon (a fallen angel)? The Bottomless Pit, where he’s king; Shakh-ath = destroying angel that God uses in judgment over nations. The locusts he commands are spoken of in prophecy. I believe they are shade (consuming) demons, who pick up where the saweers (corruptors) stop. Shades bring the living to death’s verge, but don’t kill – only the personage of Death does this. Death is an enemy, not only a condition. He is as real as the seraphim, who have something to do w/ his release as 1 of 4 horsemen. Zec. has some to say about these.

      Do dark spiritual realms (including corruption) interact w/& govern over the phys. world? Corruption certainly was never part of God’s Creation. Could Death be king over microbes (known) as Ab. is king over locusts (unknown)? Science doesn’t understand much (except making stuff) because 1 of its fund. assumptions (no God) prevents it. Science only explores phys. realms, & dismisses spiritual realms because they are non-logical (like beliefs in God). Our heads are puffed up w/ science facts that move us away from considering spiritual realms. We don’t want to look silly before the world, and so doubt God words.

    • Jay Altieri

      Ok, I’m trying to understand your theory of body-soul-spirit. You accept a tripartite view of our constitution.
      Body (Soma) is physical animals and people both have.
      Spirit (rauch/pneuma) is breath/animation, since breathing is indicative of life. Again animals and people both have. Nothing metaphysical with spirit, it is just air/wind/breath. When you and/or beast dies, the air stops moving. The gift of life returns to God. This is nothing more than the animation force, thus Hitler had spirit in your system. Spirit is always good, because spirit is life, life is from God and God is good. Hence spirit is good.
      Soul (nephesh/psyche) is personality/mind. Animals and people both have soul. This is the immaterial aspect of creatures. We have pointed out verses wherein animals have both nephesh and rauch.
      So what is the difference between man and beast? If spirit is not the image of God, what is?
      Did I get the above correct for your system? Before I attempt to critique it, I want to make sure I’m not fighting a straw man.

      #157 eternal vrs everlasting: In NT eternal +everlasting are both equally translating the same Gk word aiōnios. So there is no difference. It is only perceived in English. It is the same Grk word. Man was created, so we are not eternal is the past. I have no objection to your idea that our conception in god’s mind was eternal, but I wouldn’t go around bragging that man is eternal because of that. Instead man is appointed to death, to return to the dust. Eternality is available, even better-we can become godlike, joint heirs with the Son, theoticly grown into his image. But the availability of this option is only upon God’s conditions-faith in Jesus. Not everyone gets eternal life, it is a gift.

    • patrick

      Unsaved have good spirits?: Yes, that is what I believe. Their spirits (which return at death to God who gave them – who does not give wicked gifts) are good because they are performing their function – invoking animation (via breath) of the body. If they were not good (not wicked, but defective – bad) then there would never have been the possibility for life (animation). The spirit of a man is more than just air; it is a life-force. It is the soul that God will punish with an everlasting punishment, not the flesh (which is dust) or the spirit. The soul is wicked. The flesh obeys the soul, except in extreme survival conditions (hunger, pain, etc…) where the spirit actually insists the soul tend to the needs of the body, lest the spirit depart from it. This is the really close association between soul and spirit I was speaking of. The spirit has some limited form of emotion and will that pertain to matters of life and death – it can actually trump the soul. Try to will yourself to stop breathing – no way, because the spirit (which is your life force) will override your own will (your soul). If it is not the spirit trumping the will, then what is it? Why can’t you will yourself to stop breathing? God doesn’t have bad breath. Born again believers have a better than good Spirit, because they received the Holy Spirit, which grafts with our own spirit and brings together what was prior to separated (spirituall sep.). Sometimes I wonder if you aren’t totally subtracting our own spirit (little s) as if it plays no part, or does not exist. You never answered my question: “What function does man’s spirit serve?” If the unsaved are breathing, then they have a spirit. Do you have any Scripture that states otherwise? I’d like to see it.

      I thought you said you do not like it when people degrade the body (you said, “Man does not have a good bone in his body”).

    • patrick

      1day=1kyrs: The lit. words in Psa.90/2Pet.3 are 1day=1kyrs. You gave the fig. meanings, not the lit. Literally, they mean what they say. Figuratively, they say what you have said they mean. I can apply the lit. Psa.90:4 figuratively to the lit. Gen 3-Gen.11, just as believers rightly do with Messiah’s lit. death account & a lit. Passover lamb sacrifice (Col.2:16-17). The fig. connection is there & was intentionally done by the HS for both. It does not alter the lit. (like lambs being slain) – it is simply an overlaying of significant info (seeing Messiah inside the Passover). I have in no way altered, or ignored, the lit. meanings, as I have said, and figuratively all Scriptures consistently run historically parallel with the Creation Days w/ a 1day=1kyrs condition, even to the point of giving parallel indicators for each age (Spirit hovering over the waters/Dove had no resting place for the sole of her foot – Spirit = fig. dove – both Day 1s, etc.) The farther 1 pursues this theme the more 1 receives confirmation. I didn’t say “code language to decipher the hidden meaning of prophecies”. God said He declared the end from the BEGINNING. That is specific, lit.: “In the BEGINNING was the WORD” – Logos – a declarative Entity (God SAID, “Let there be light”, etc.) There is nothing cryptic, nor is there anything that forbids this in the fig. realm. I take what has been explained literally, & apply it where it belongs.

      Adam didn’t die spiritually – he quenched the HS in him & became spiritually separated from God (his spirit apart from God’s Spirit). Man has his own spirit apart from the HS, which I suspect you may be unwilling to see – Gen.41:8, Deu.2:30, Job 15:13, Pro.16:32, Eze.3:14, Dan.5:20, Dan.7:15, Mal.2:16, Luk.1:47, Act.7:59, ROM.8:16, 1Cor.5:5, etc. Adam lost his Spirit-glory coat – 2Cor.5:4-5 – Adam was ashamed in God’s presence. He realized he was naked right off. He died physically within what Moses has literally said to be a day to God.

    • Jay Altieri

      Hello Patrick, I made a mistake and need to adjust what I said in post #169. Rauch as used in OT always means air, wind, breath. You had made the comment +you’re correct- that animals have rauch. Animals have lungs (at least vertebrates). Nothing metaphysical about rauch in Hebrew Bible. That revelation does seem to come later in NT, but rauch in OT didn’t originally mean immaterial essance. Israelites were a temporal people, they had a hope for a resurrection, but no thought of an afterlife. Many scholars have noted this. At that point in history I think they were correct. There was no afterlife yet, because Jesus had not yet paved the road. I printed out ALL 378x rauch verses as they appear in OT. I think you could insert wind/breath every time with good exegesis. “Spirit” is probably eisegesis. A metaphysical element is not in the text. Gen 1:2 wind of God blew over the deep waters.

      Wind is invisible. We can feel its power+see its effects, but we cannot see wind. Jesus plays on this in John 3:8.
      So if rauch just means breath with a life force; maybe you are not tripartite? What is the part of man that is reborn (John 3:3)? What becomes a new creation (2Cor 5:17; Gal 6:15)? I see an actual entity, an object, a person, a being. Whereas you are seeing a force but no ontological personhood.

      Pneuma appears 384x in NT. I have also printed out and studied every verse. By my counts, 231x it references the Holy Spirit. 55x it means an evil spirit. 4x it is angels. 6x it is Jesus. 25x it could simply mean breath as in OT rauch. This leaves 73 interesting verses for pneuma of men, where I think it is deeper than just breath/life. 69 of those 73 are in the epistles (post Pentecost). 4x in John gospel (John 3:5-6; John 4:23-24). Never, not once, does it speak of pneuma of unsaved.

    • patrick


      I agree that the covering cherub of Eze.28 = Satan, on the basis that if this were not Satan being described, then someone “wiser” might be a more suitable candidate as God’s adversary. I believe the big picture w/ the heavenly host (as well as w/ mankind) centers around the question “Who is worthy?”, per the several proclamations to this effect in the Rev. God’s authority/sovereignty has been challenged – and if He was not challenged by His “supreme” creation, then His undisputed worthiness will not truly be established by this current confrontation. It is also logical that the most likely candidate would be the one who saw that none were more qualified than himself. The fiery (pretty) stones are probably linked to a means of cleansing atonement, per Isa.6:6-7, which probably has something to do with the slaying of the Lamb before the foundation of the kosmos, since coals should not have such properties in and of themselves. The entirety of these statements is merely speculation on my part though. I also get a feeling from the Eze.28 passage that the stones were involved in Satan’s trafficking.

      Prince of Persia is an angel, not a demon. The two are quite distinct in interests and behavior. Angels preside over nations, while demons possess whomever they can. Spirits cannot die – see Rev. 20:10 for Satan’s everlasting punishment. The ASH portion of Eze.28 probably has to do with his change from cherub to nawkhash prior to Eve, as the trafficking does not appear to tie in well with her temptation, plus he is already in serpent form when found in the garden. Mal.4:3 is the winepress judgment on Edom.

    • patrick

      Why do you imagine gaps it pre-Deluge genealogies? Pyramids show evidence of flooding (pre-Deluge). I don’t know about a dozen Akkadian dynasties, 40 yrs apiece seems reasonable though in terms of kings – if your numbers are correct. What is your source? The only reason to put gaps of billions of yrs between Creation Days is if you want evolution, which rejects the Scriptures anyway. God does not speak of billions anywhere, plus, this approach makes God’s creation haphazard/full of errors on His part with death present long before the fall, which does not match His omniscience/justice. How do you justify? Job was able to describe 1 land & 1 marine dinosaur in his days, including behavioral responses, but science states dinos died millions of yrs prior? Much evidence is present that shows man was contemporary w/ the dinos. Since Mt. St. Helens science has changed its tune on the amount of time involved in laying down mud layers. Check it out! Science still assigns millions between layers in the GC, but for no good reason. Geologically speaking, science has a treacherous history of distorting the facts to fit their theories. Recommend you check out creationscience.com, among other web sites. The church still has some 250 yr old repenting to do (Dan.9) concerning doubting God’s word. Today we are past 6,000 yrs from 1 AM, but this is because you fail to attribute the 1st (Creation) Sabbath as 1k yrs in duration, as I have previously said (no eve/morn statement). Absolutely no evidence of angels dying in the LoF from Scriptures, but just the opposite. They are immortal (Luk.20:36), which, by definition means they cannot die. Origin of demons is indeterminate. Personal speculation has to do with attempts on the heavenly hosts’ part in rearing their own offspring (forbidden fruit), which God never authorized.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, you are definitely helping me to fine tune my ideas. Thank you. You had brought up the idea of muth nephesh. I found it, you are correct: Lev 21:11; Numb 6:6; Numb 19:11-13;and Judg 16:30. So instead of nephesh meaning life (that’s chai), nephesh means mind, personality, consciousness. Nephesh can die. I have no problem with that. As a Conditionalist, I think the only way for your nephesh to live is by God’s gift. All humans receive the gift of temporal life. Believers in God receive the gift of Eternal life.

      During the OT (before Jesus’ resurrection) all nephesh were breathed out in death awaiting redemption or judgment. Redemption has come. Judgment is still future.

      Muth nephesh is not a problem for my thesis, but I do need to revise my definition per your correction. Nephesh does not simply mean life, it must mean mind/personality. 2Sam 14:14 when they died, their nephesh evaporated. It was poured out like spilt water on dry ground. Impossible to regather back into the cup. This happened to everybody (righteous and wicked) for God is no respecter of persons.

      Gen 9:4; Lev 17:11; Lev 17:14 say that nephesh dwells in the damim (blood). How does that work with our definition as personality? Mind is in the brain, no? Yet no kasrut law against eating brains. You can’t eat the blood, because the nephesh is in the blood. How does that fit with nephesh=mind personality?

      BTW, for modern gentile purposes I interpret this as we should not eat living animals. Cooked blood (boudin, black pudding) probably ok. Allow the oyster on half shell to wait 30min after shucking for it to die. Possibly oysters don’t even have nephesh, since they have no blood as vertebrate do.

      Pls provide more info (by email would be good since this is totally not relevant + I’d hate for you to spend your 2000# on irrelevance) about difference between fallen angels and demons. I have not studied that topic. Thanks.

    • patrick


      body-soul-spirit: In terms of man’s spirit it’s not just air/wind/breath I’m thinking of. The spirit is a fusion of the several portraits drawn in the Scriptures. It is a life force that comes from (& returns to) God. It is like the wind (invisible) & is in charge of respiratory life (I’ve never had to define it w/ such detail, so I may retract certain things after reflection – I’m shooting from the hip). I would venture to say that all the spirits of mankind are virtually the same. They have limited emotion.

      Analogy: The spirit is like a highly protective mom that scolds her kid (soul) when he is tearing up the house (flesh). Mom is bonded to the kid through certain emotional ties, making the 2 very close, & difficult to distinguish most times. She’s super-sensitive about the house because it falls to pieces quite easily now. In the beginning the first houses were very strong structurally (glory from the Spirit), but not anymore. The spirit is a guardian that wants to remain in the house & be with her kid, who knows carpentry, but is lazy & destructive. It breaks her heart to leave him, but she is eventually forced to go & live w/ her Dad/Landlord (God), while the kid is incarcerated for vandalism until his trial. Everyone (good & bad alike) has a mom. Only the kid can decide if he wants to repair the house. Some kids like the house the way it is, some come to see it really needs restoration. The latter accepts his circumstances & works to improve the house structurally with superb lumber, all supplied by the Landlord.

      Don’t take me too literally on all this. Also, there are aspects I didn’t touch on in terms of the conversion experience.

      As I said before man is distinct from animal in that he bears the image (form) of God bodily, like the malukim (angels in man’s forms). Messiah came in the form of a man to liberate man (Philippians 2:7-8).

    • patrick


      Ruakh/Pneuma Occurences: Very interesting findings you bring forth, & very well explained. A lot of work on your part, no doubt. Thanks!

      But let’s see – you said “Israelites … had a hope for a resurrection, but no thought of an afterlife,” which seems to be self-contradicting. “Hope of res” vs. “no thought of afterlife”? Please explain, including your def. for afterlife, & w/ a caveat about the 2 shining guys speaking w/ the pre-cruc. Yeshua on the Mt. of Trans. I don’t believe you can replace ruakh w/ breath for the following OT vss: Gen.4:18, Deu.2:30 (the wicked!), Prov.16:32, Eze.3:14, Dan.5:20, Mal.2:16. These seem to be metaphys. refs. Please address. Gen.1:2, when linked w/ Prov.8:22-28 (in light of Isa.11:2 (compare w/ Rev.4:5)) give a much broader OT understanding on spirit, don’t you think? Please comment.

      Based on these observations I personally suggest (at least initially) you look at your NT pneuma findings as being info that OVERLAYS the OT teaching, not supersedes it. I say this because the NT would be obliged to make a superseding statement if your interp. is correct. How is John 3:8 to be understood TODAY? I believe it pertains to the future resurrected/changed in Messiah. Apart from 1 another flesh, spirit, & soul are not persons – there is only 1 person formed from the comb. of the 3 (Here, oh Yisrael: The Lord thy God is One (Achad, a compound unity, not an absolute singular). We are such as well, an achad. Each sep. member needs the other 2 to make 1 functioning person.

      I believe that John 3:3 is referring to the res. rebirth in its strictest sense.

      “New creation” would be in ref. to a changed heart (soul/spirit combo) that no longer rebels against God/has a new grafting, but thinks/lives for the benevolent Savior/King.

      1Cor.5:5 – Do you believe this man was truly converted? Ref. to him being like “leaven” makes me doubt this greatly. He has a man’s spirit, unless the HS is in need of salvation! Not!

    • Jay Altieri

      #184 you think pymds were built before the flood? No way archaeologically. We’re fairly certain who the kings were of giza pymds. Kufu, Kafre +Menkaure were all kings in the 4th dynasty of oldkingdom (OK). Their cartouche on statuary in mortuary temples. Boats of reed are buried at giza. Before the flood it had not even rained yet. Boats were not well used, hence Noah’s ridicule. Reed would not survive flood. Sphinx is from Kafre (some dispute). Statue has great detail even hyglph writing. That would not survive flood.
      OK (3rd-6th dyn)has yielded up many temples, stela, grave goods, even papyrus, pottery, etc. Way to much physical evidence for post flood period.

      No way biblically either. There were no nations before the flood. Mankind had not yet dispersed. Mitzraim is the Hebrew word for Egypt. It is also guy’s name, he was son of Ham +founder of Egypt. Ham was on the ark, so Egypt was founded after the flood and after Babel dispersion. Babel occurred in the days of Peleg, when the earth was divided. Peleg did not witness Pangea geological division of continental drift (that is reading into text modern ideas), he witnessed division of humanity at babel into tribes/nations.
      Note that Gen 10 (Nimrud empire builder of Assyria) is not in chronological order. Gen 11 Babel must come first before Babylon and Assyria are nations that need unification under one empire. Nimrud is proposed as Sargon Great in current issue of JETS, good article. If interested I can email it to you.

      I said doz dynasties of Akkad quickly w/o counting. This would include Sumerian. Google it. Jemdet Nasr period is most famous due to large horde of cuneiform tablets at ziggurat unearthed WW1 era. I think excavated by Langdan. His translation of Gilgamesh still definitive, 80 yrs later. Harriet Crawford probably best known modern arch. in this field. Ziggurats are mud brick and cuneiform are clay. Both would dissolve if pre-flood, Sumer/Akkad are post flood.

    • Jay Altieri

      #162 Heb 4:12 division of soul/spirit? This is an oft mistranslated verse. According to most English translations, the Word of God severs, divides, separates psyche from pneuma. They had been closely knit, but with God’s sharp filet knife, He cuts them in half. At least that is how most English versions so translate.
      I think that is incorrect. The word merismou [divide asunder] is only used 1 other time in NT, also in Hebrews (same author). To better understand how the word is intended, we should study other instances of the word. Consistency is important. I reject the idea that Bible uses the same word in totally different ways. Especially not only 2 chapters apart, when the word is still fresh on your tongue. Heb 2:4 God bears witness of the truth of salvation message by displaying miracles in the apostles. He performs diversities [merismois] of the Holy Spirit. Most translations correctly understand this as GIFTS. Literally it means diversity. Not divisions of the HS, for certainly the HS does not cause division-but unity.

      God does not divide, He is a combiner. 1Cor 1:10 divisions [schisma]; Titus 3:9-10 dissensions [eris]+ stirring up division [heretikon].
      My point is that merismou from Heb 4:12 DOES NOT mean divide asunder. In Heb 2:4 it means various and sundry gifts(tongues, healing, prophecy, etc) given to different people at different items. Diversity, variety, distinction, complementarian. Jay’s amplified targum of Heb 4:12 The Word of God pierces like 2edge sword the thick foggy minds of people to distinguish the differences between psyche and pneuma.

      Similarly, the Word can distinguish (not break apart) the purposes between joint+marrow. Unfortunately these 2 Greek words are unique to this verse. I’m not convinced joint+marrow are correct, but I don’t know.

      Patrick, I think our talk is furthering the intent of this verse. We are not chopping out soul from spirit, but hopefully we will illuminate their meaning.

    • patrick


      Notice that the unsaved can’t walk after spirit (because it aint there): Or perhaps the spirit is there, but is repressed by the soul/flesh because of rebellion.

      Rom.7:9: Paul said he was once alive and then the law came and he died. The law would have come to him before Messiah’s death. Isn’t this in conflict with your statement that no one was spiritually alive before the HS came to men after the ascension?

      Sin is alive in the embodiment of sin – antichrist. There are many antichrists, and always have been. There are principalities and powers of darkness according to the NT. I believe sin is a power of darkness, same as death. Sin is also a noun, such as in Jhn.19:11. Sin in a man is a driving force that destroys his life and relationships. As such, it is a power. The pervasiveness of sin in an unregenerate man leads to a final outcome, like a disease. Diseases are only known by their symptoms, which are only physical manifestations. There must be a spiritual force behind the physical symptoms. In the spiritual realm we are not looking at non-living entities, but living – Eph.6:12. To underestimate this is a serious mistake. Science does not address the spiritual aspect, but deals only with the physical world. The pervasiveness of this world view is undermining our spiritual understanding about just such matters.

    • patrick


      So instead of nephesh meaning life (that’s chai), nephesh means mind, personality, consciousness: Correct. The soul apart from the spirit is dead, but not like the body apart from the spirit is dead. The body is matter, whereas spirit & soul are immaterial. The body is mortally dead apart from the spirit, but the soul does not deteriorate – ever. Our understanding about mortal decay of flesh does not apply to the soul, which opens the doors to a murky, unseen world. The word “hell” is German, and means hidden. The hope of grasping this realm’s workings without experience would be highly unlikely. Example: If you precisely understood the world and all things in it, but had never seen it, would you ever have realized that the surface of water would be reflective? No. It would be quite alarming to you, initially, to find this out. This is what we are up against in our hopes of understanding the matters around a dead soul.

      Gen 9:4; Lev 17:11; Lev 17:14 say that nephesh dwells in the damim (blood): I do not believe this is necessarily true, but I wouldn’t want to argue against it due to the close association between spirit & soul. Gen.9:4-5 may be speaking about the “blood of the soul”. I believe the spirit inhabits the blood, but of the 3 (body/spirit/soul) God is primarily interested in the soul, & so the emphasis. It may be like asking, “Isn’t the blood part of the flesh?” The answer is yes, but the blood seems to be the link between all 3. The blood feeds the body, including the brain. Spirit is in the blood’s air, interacting, animating, etc.

      I will forward my reasoning regarding demons are not angels, but need to refer to my notes first.

    • patrick


      Yet no kasrut law against eating brains: The OT issue is not about the eating of particular parts of the flesh, but about clean/unclean creatures, and the drinking of blood. The blood courses throughout all the (edible) parts of a body. I believe we can eat any part of any creature today, if it is received with thanksgiving. We still can’t drink blood though, because of Acts 21:25.

    • Jay Altieri

      Yes, I did answer about function, see #169.

      #183 Mal 4:3 was written 150 yrs AFTER Edom fell. Mal was during Persian period circa 430bc. Edom was destroyed by Babylon about 575bc. Reference to Edom+Esau is Mal 1:3-4, is typological for the wicked. Edom has become figurative (I know how you dislike figures of speech) for all wicked people. I have an extensive Edom Powerpoint study on my website if curious.

      Rev 14:11 and Rev 20:10 both draw from Isa 34:10. Sorry, Not literal. Isa is saying that Edom will be destroyed and the wasteland will smoke forever. Southern Jordan is not still smoldering. The symbol means that the destruction will be absolute and total. There will be nothing left, but ash. This is called hyperbole. It is an exaggeration for emphasis. Edom is not still burning but it is utterly destroyed. Likewise Satan and wicked will not be tormented forever, but will die.

      #184 Luke 20:35-36 Believers in the resurrection don’t marry and don’t die=to the angels. Angels don’t marry and they don’t die. Read both verses. Evil angels broke the rule, according to your own belief, they married. Consequences they die. I don’t have a problem with fallen angels attempting to procreate with each other and make baby angels. By such, the broke the law (no marriage for angels) and fell. Soon, they will reap the consequences and die.

      But I do have a problem with angels hybridizing with humans. My biggest problem with partly-human hybrid people is how it affects the GOSPEL. Jesus only died for the sons of Adam (1 Cor 15:22). If Nephalim were not fully human, then Jesus didn’t die for them. But Jesus died for ALL people (Rom 5:17; John 3:16), thus all people are human. If Nephalim came through the flood and infected the Canaanites with non-human DNA, then are there still Neph Today? Maybe the Taliban? That was sarcasm, Taliban and ALL people are 100% human and need a savior. Belief in non-human hybrid people undermines the Gospel.

    • Jay Altieri

      By your definition, spirit is the life force of animation and is only operable with a body, then what is a ministering spirit (Heb 1:14) or an evil spirit (used 55x)?
      I’m figuring that our personal spirit is analogous to the structure of an angel or demon. They are spirit beings. Do you see our spirit analogous to them?
      You said if the unsaved are breathing they have spirit. This is true in the simple windy sense of pneuma eg: James 2:26- nothing metaphysical this verse is just noting the obvious: If he is not breathing then he is not alive.

      I find this breathing idea to be the norm in the OT. But elsewhere in NT I think there is more to pneuma than just breathing. Consider Jude 1:19, read it in Greek. No def article, it actually says they have no spirit. Translators mistakenly added THE, which is not in Gktext. Unsaved have no spirit per Jude 19. Obviously have breath, so this means something deeper and I think metaphysical. It is the spiritual inner man (Eph 3:16) they are lacking.

      If pneuma is life force of animation only (I think that is a function of psyche), and if believers have the HS superglued to our life force, then why do Christians get old, decrepit, weak and waning in life force? If we have a supernatural life force bound to our own life force, shouldn’t we live strong and healthy forever? But life slips away with old age, even for Spirit filled believers. Why?

      If life force is a function of psyche (per my idea), then all humans have the same power. Christians die of old age just like anybody else, because psyche is the same. Granted we have a clean mind, they have a dirty mind, but no HS superglued into our nephesh. HS is superglued to our pneuma, which I see as not related to life force. I see spirit as vehicle for relationship with non-dimensional space (spirit realm).

      Rom 8:6 those thinking about sarx have death, those thinking about pneuma have life/peace.
      How does this fit with the idea of unsaved have perfectly ok spirit?

    • patrick


      I retract my statement about the pyramid being pre-Mabool. You are correct. Sorry. As I also stated, the Mabool wiped away all evidences of man. Although the presence of boats, statues, pottery, etc. does not necessarily have anything to do with pyramid dating itself, as such items (even engravings) could have been added at a later time. I will disagree with you about whether there were nations before the Mabool, but agree with your comments about Mizraim.

      To make the statement that Peleg did not witness the continental drift but instead witnessed the dispersion of the Babelites is questionable. Peleg came 2 generations after the confusion of tongues. The meaning of his name also becomes irrelevant according to this statement, & so I disagree. The scenario I am proposing is that 2 gens before Peleg there was the dispersion of peoples that populated a solitary landmass (Pangae), and only afterward could continental separation have occurred. There are huge difficulties with the migrations of all creatures (including man) if this were not so. I am not necessarily saying the continental drift was the mechanism that caused the division of land masses. Drift does not account for the relatively short duration of the event. Modern ideas are always used to interpret the Scriptures. The world is not flat! Something certainly happened to get the dry (land) from its original state per Gen.1:9 (solitary) to its current geography. Please explain your view.

      I agree w/ your observations about Sumerian/Akkadian cultures being post-Mabool. These cultures are referenced in Scriptures as such. I do not believe I ever commented to the contrary.

      Heb 4:12 division of soul/spirit?: I believe the interpretation of Heb.2:4 “gifts” implies unique gifts are given to unique people, which is a division of gifts. That would go hand-in-hand with what Eph.4:11-12. God is involved in dividing, separating, cleaving, etc., as well as gathering, joining, uniting, etc.

    • Jay Altieri

      Hello Patrick, #181 I agree when you said Adam “quenched the HS.” However, many people have a common misunderstanding of “quench.” It does not mean repressed or separated. Quench means to put out, extinguish. Firemen quench a housefire by adding water. It stops the burning process prematurely while the wooden fuel source is still available. Quenching alters the outcome of the fire.
      Isa 1:31, Jer 4:4 say that God’s wrath cannot be quenched. Another words firemen are NOT able extinguish God’s anger. It will burn its course, until it is satisfied. God’s judgment upon sinners as unquenchable (Isa 66:24 et al) does NOT mean that it will burn eternally with conscious torment. It means that people cannot divert, extinguish, derail God’s intent.
      Isa 34:10 Edom (Southern Jordan) is not still burning today.
      Jer 17:27 the palaces of Jerusalem are not still on fire today.
      Ezek 20:47 the forests of Israel are not still ablaze today.
      These were never quenched, but in due time they ran their course and naturally ceased without proactive extinguishment.
      If firemen “repress or separate” afire then it is contained, not quenched.
      Thus, I agree that Adam extinguished the rauch within himself. As you say, Adam lost his glory coat.

      #183 Satan destroyed or turned into a nachash?
      Eze 28:18 remember Hebrew verb is imperfect (not yet complete). How does that fit with satan changing from cherub to snake? That happened long time ago-perfect tense. Also 28:18 says that the change into ash happens while people watch. Another words satan is publicly executed and humiliated in the process. I don’t see any connection between ash (efer) and snake(nachash). Pls explain.
      Being turned to ashes is a long standing warning to the wicked (2Pet 2:6). I take it literally, they will cease to exist as people (nephesh)

      You did not address Eze 28:19 satan will exist no more. How do you see that one?

    • Jay Altieri

      Excellent selection of rauch vrs.
      Gen 4:18- check ref-no rauch; Deut 2:30 + Dan 5:20 Sihon+ Belshazzar’s breath were heavy, difficult, harsh+fierce. This is idiomatic same as hardening the neck.
      Several vrs speak of evil peopl difficulty breathing. Josh 5:1- Amorites lost breath. Apnea of courage; 2Chron 21:16 Philistines are agitated. These do not refer to the metaphysical-immaterial spirit. That spirit is peaceful, good, wholesome, above anger and reproach. The immaterial spirit comes from God. Perhaps it even is a part of God (I accept Grk Theosis) Spirit is not fierce, cowardly, and belligerent, thus these verse idiomatically mean breath.
      Prov.16:32-notice the parallel. Slow to anger > mighty. Controlling your breath (tongue/words) > conqueror. Fits very well with proverbial wisdom and also with Jam 1:26. What does this mean if it really does mean controlling the spirit?
      Eze 3:14 is an interesting verse. This is Ez’s calling. God tells him that he will be a prophet to a stubborn rebellious people (Eze 2:3). I want you to go on a failure mission, no one will listen or obey, but I want you to do this thing. Ez is bummed out. If it had been me, I’d ask: Why can’t I have a job like Daniel? Ez got stuck with a sorry job. Then God tells him to eat a scroll of lament. This is probably to learn and synthesize the message of destruction +exile that Ez was to repeat. Ez is not a happy camper. 1st he is overwhelmed by the glory +power of God. 2nd he gets an impossible assignment where God TELLS him that they won’t listen. In 3:14 God teleports him over to the Kebar river area. Ez is bitter with hot displeasure on his breath. But the power of God prevailed and Ez obeys.
      Interestingly Isa was enthusiastic “here am I send me!” Ez is bitter at his assignment. The fact that his rauch was bitter and mad at God is evidence that we are not talking about spirit, this is breath.

    • Jay Altieri

      You had 1 more rauch vrs worthy of comment. Mal.2:13-17 need to read as paragraph. They are wailing, moaning, crying, and praying loudly at the altar. These are breathy actions. Air is expelled across the larynx as they wail and cry. Yet they are hypocrites because they divorce their wives while they are praying and making sacrifices. Guard your breath, let your voice be in accord with your actions.
      As I said rauch OT vrs all seem to indicate breath/wind. This includes voice as speaking is air based.

      #I83 Eze 28:13 l liken the pretty stones that were the cherub’s covering to the breast plate of the HP in Ex 28:17. Interestingly, satan’s covering has 9gemstones+gold. High priest’s covering has 12+gold. They are identical except the 3rd row of the breastplate is absent on satan. I have no idea what that means, but I suspect it does have meaning.

      Sorry, but I don’t see the connection with Isa6. Perhaps you can explain further. The covering cherub hovers over the mercy seat (Ex 25:22). This was satan’s original job before the fall. The breastplate of judgment (Ex 28:15) so called because it was only worn on Yom Kippur, when the HP was drizzling blood on the mercy seat. So there is a mercy seat connection with these gems stones. Whereas the atoning coals come from the golden incense altar. Different piece of temple furniture.

      #190 is the spirit (metaphysical nonmaterial aspect) repressed (your word) or dead? I can’t find “repressed” in bible. But state of being dead even while still breathing is clearly taught (Eph 2:1, Col 2:13). Likewise from #187, new creation only means a “changed heart”? Whereas I understand an entity ontologically comes into existence upon salvation which had not previously been there before.
      For me, your version is watering down what the text actually said. Ironically, I who love metaphor and symbolism, take these more literally than you who’s preference is for literalism. Funny, huh?

    • Jay Altieri

      #186 you said spirit has limited emotion. Consider the following:
      Gen 26:35 grieving spirit; Gen 41:8 troubled spirit; Gen 45:27 spirit perked up; Ex 6:9 anguished spirit; Numb 5:14 jealous spirit; 1Sam 1:15 sorrowful spirit; 1Chron 5:26 stirred up spirit; Job 20:3 understanding spirit; Ps 34:18 humble spirit; Ps 106:33 provoked spirit; Ps 142:3 overwhelmed spirit; Prov 11:13 faithful spirit; Prov 16:18 proud spirit; Ecc 1:14 vexed spirit; Ecc 7:9 hasty spirit.

      My point is that rauch appears to be significantly more than just limited emotion. OT rauch has the gamut of human feelings. This is evidence for me that it is not speaking (in the OT) of immaterial spirits, but about ourbreath/language. The words that come from our mouth reveal the thoughts of our nephesh. You had said once before, I agree that rauch +nephesh are very closely related. All of these feelings and thoughts come from the mind+heart.
      Isa 26:9notice parallel between nephesh and rauch. Both are meaning life/thoughts. Again in Isa 57:15 rauch +leb (heart) are paralleled.
      Here is one without theological significance, but funny: Job19:17 his wife thinks he has bad breath. Always about AIR.

      I will agree with a metaphysical new spirit in the NT which is ALWAYS good/pure/godlike, but I don’t think it was ever expressed in the OT. Sometimes rauch in OT has bad thoughts (eg: proud spirit in Prov 16:18).
      So I’m thinking that the rauch of man is common to all humans. It is source of life+breath. It utters words,feelings, emotions of both good +evil. In the NT, this basic meaning is still evident, but another new definition for pneuma is born. NT includes the OT definition, but also stretches the envelope. A metaphysical immaterial aspect of man that transcends the body and communes with God. This new and improved spirit meaning is unique to man, animals have breath only but not spirit. It is the image in which man was created. Something happens between OT+NT causing paradigm shift.

    • Jay Altieri

      Mat 10:28 Some people have observed that this verse only has 2 parts of man, not tripartite. It only mentions body[soma] and soul [psyche]. Why? When evil rebels kill the body of a Christian, they have no power to kill the psyche. Psyche is best understood as mind/heart/personality/being. This is good evidence that Christians are not bound to soul sleep. When they kill the body the mind still lives. I think this is because Christians have another structure, an immaterial one, the spirit. When the body dies the spirit still holds the thoughts and consciousness of the individual. This body death and continued life of the mind (via the spirit) is what happens now in the current age to all testifying Christians. I agree with your martyr idea within the strict Greek definition only. Those who bear testimony of Jesus, whether or not they are actively put to death because of it.

      Eschatologically, after the Last judgment, unbelievers will be condemned by God and cast into the LoF (Gehenna). The text says that God destroys body and mind. What about the spirit? This is where it gets interesting. Remember in my thesis, the spirit of the wicked is dead, non existing from birth. They have no spirit (Jude 1:19). God will judge and destroy that which rebelled. He will not create a new spirit and then destroy it for sins which the spirit had no involvement. Unsaved people are never given spirit, which is God’s nature. Not even in the final resurrection, they will be judged as they had been in life. This is fair and just. To create a new component that had no culpability in the lifetime of sin and then to destroy it for the mistakes of the other components would not be justice.

      So my interpretation of this verse is 1) Christians don’t die just because the body dies. 2) Unsaved are judged in the fashion in which they sinned. How do you reconcile this passage with body-soul-spirit?

    • Jay Altieri

      Ham marry Naamah? From Cain to Naamah is 6 generations. From Seth to Noah is 9gen. Possible since they lived so long, but unlikely +pure speculation.
      Gen 6:9 “pure in his generations” does NOT mean genetically 100% human. Parallelism: righteous man=blameless generation. God does not care about genetics, he judges the mind/attitude not the body/chromosome. Giants+midgets are all good if they honor God. Same word ‘blameless’ is used in Gen 17:1 for Abram.

      Gen 6:5 man=Hebrew word adam. Adam’s name means man. Wickedness of Adam caused the flood, not nephalim.
      LXX consistently translates Heb ‘adam’ into Gk ‘anthropos’. Both words mean MAN.
      Acts 17:30 only anthropos are called to repent. Acts 22:15 we only witness to anthopos
      1Tim 2:4 god only wants anthropos to be saved
      Thus Nephalim, if sired by demons are not adam/anthropos/men. As such they are not sinners under this covenant and are eligible for salvation under this covenant.

      Herein lies relevance toward AB blog: #162 you appear to think Nephalim go to Sheol in Eze32 and do the talk, because they are exempt from silence/noknowledge clause since they are not fully human? Creative. However Eze 32 says that the kings in Sheol are from Asshur, Edom, Elam, Tubal and the north. You’ve explained the pre-deluge Asshur idea, what about Edom+Tubal? Were they also secret unrecorded pre deluge civilizations? Edom was children of Esau-post flood. Tubal was son of Japheth in Gen 10:2 table of nations. Or do you think Ham’s post flood hybrid offspring infiltrate these nations with nonhuman beings? I previously was concerned about impact upon gospel message by non-human people, please clarify your thought.

      All the mighty in Sheol were slain by the sword, not drowned in Mabool. Eze 32:31 Pharaoh sees+feels good. Pharaoh has feelings +thought while he is in sheol. Is Pharaoh Nephal?

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, I’m getting ahead of you and almost caught up. Hope all is well.
      #178 Abaddon =shakhath. Agreed. Shakhath is a highly poetic word. I equate it with sheol (grave), bowr (pit), abaddon (corruption). Hebrew poetry is strongly parallel. The repetition shows synonymy. They all speak of death. They all refer to the same place-the grave. It is a place of unconsciousness, no action or thought or planning. No one worships God or prays from there. No afterlife, just death.

      The angel named Abaddon in Rev 9:11 is not dead. He and all of his grasshopper buddies are quite alive and pissed off. He is never said to be in sheol/bowr/abaddon/shakhath. But he is named after that place. Death is his hobby. He loves to kill. Ironically when he is released from his prison (bottomless pit/tartarus) he will not be permitted to kill, only to torture those with the mark. I take this as fairly literal and future. A bad bunch of demons/fallen angels will hurt unbelievers during the GT. I have a study on website about scrolls/trumps/vials, if interested. You won’t like it because it is a highly symbolic interpretation. Feel free to critique but not in this blog.

      Bottomless Pit (abyss) is not a place of no thought. It is different from sheol. It is a real geographic place. Demons in Luke 8:31 did not want to go there. Only angels/demons are in there, no people. The occupants of abyss appear to have mental faculties. These are the angels to whom Jesus preached shortly after the resurrection.
      shade (consuming) demons? saweers (corruptors)? Verse? Pls clarify. Perhaps you meant sayir (hairy goat) idol in Lev 17:7.

      Yes, I agree that dark spiritual realms interact w/& govern over the physical world. If there was an evil angel over Persia, then I bet there is today an evil dominion over USA.

    • patrick


      Mal 4:3 was written 150 yrs AFTER Edom fell: Pls read Isa.63:1-4. This is the description of the LATTER DAY winepress judgment spoken of in Rev.19:15. Mal.4:3 is the same. I do not consider your quoted statement about the fall of Edom incorrect, but Mal.4:1 is speaking about the last days as well! What the prophets spoke on (millennial) day 3 will be brought to pass in its FULLNESS on (mil.) day 6 (sometime “today”). If you fail to make the determination that mil. ages are being acted out after the Creation pattern that God declared from the beginning, & if you fail to see that the Creation Days are laid out in the pattern of the menorah (1&4, 2&5, 3&6, 7, or 3 symmetric branches about 1 center branch), then you probably will not realize this (about which I am guessing will be difficult to convince you). The Spirit’s 7 Natures (Isa.11:2) are laid out exactly in this same manner (note the conjunctions “&”), which is precisely backed up by Rev.4:5. Prevailing Spirit Ages (dispensations) are thus so pre-defined. Much of what the prophets spoke only came to pass in their day (3), but only in partiality, which is totally glossed over by the church. The FULLNESS of what the prophets spoke on day 3 will ONLY come to pass on day 6. The church wants prophecy to be consigned to the past because of “modern” reasoning. Even the events spoken of in Mat.24 by the Messiah are largely consigned to the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD, by our most popular “scholars”, which to me is heresy. Edom is Esau – he who despised his birthright & lost his blessing. This has both literal & figurative meaning. The perpetual smoke will commence just prior to the mil. kingdom. Edom will be the location of the LoF – the place we should call Hell according to our current understanding per the common church teachings. What portions of prophecy came to pass on day 3 serves as credibility for the prophet, plus gives us a mini-scenario from which to build latter day event upon – 2Pet.2:19.

    • patrick

      Excellent selection of rauch vrs: Sorry for the misprint – Gen.4:18 should have been Gen.41:8 – Pharaoh.
      Deu.2:30 – qashah (hardened) is also used in Exo.7:3 (God hardened Pharaoh’s heart) & Exo.13:15 (Pharaoh was hardened about letting us go). Does not sound respiratory to me! This is an angry man that his set his jaw against doing something.
      Dan5:20 – tequef (hardened) is also used Dan.4:22 – ” it [is] you, O king, who have grown and become HARDENED; for your greatness has grown and reaches to the heavens, and your dominion to the end of the earth.” This vs., applied to the same person, & regarding the same event, sounds less like breath as opposed to a conscious stubbornness.
      Josh.5:1 – Amorite kings – no ref to ruach, but “heart”, which I take as “guts” or “bowels”. They were afraid at the sight of Israel’s crossing of the Jordan into their land. We have all had that gut-wrenching sensation that makes us want to check our shorts. My guts don’t breath, nor does my heart.
      2Chron 21:16 – the spirit of the Philistines were stirred up. Again, to read hard breathing is not what is being conveyed, but they were upset. Again, anger is the chief emotion that pertains to the spirit of man.
      Prov.16:32 & Jam.1:26 – The tongue & words may be related in the former vs., but that is always the case when your ruakh gets agitated.
      Eze.3:14 – You give an interesting explanation. I agree with the content of your argument, but Ez is not bummed out – he is furious! Again, the one emotion attributed w/ the spirit of man (as I have been saying), which links it with the soul.

    • patrick

      Mal.2:13-17 – Not buying. Take heed to your breath is entirely missing the point. God is soundly warning them about the consequences to setting their wives aside. Same is the AB verse against the money-loving Pharisees. God’s wrath is coming upon such.

      I also did the breastplate study. Made my brain hurt. Can’t figure out how/if that vacant row of stones relates. Evidently there are “nine” tribes of the heavenly host? But, that aside, whether the precious stones (Eze.28:13 – those used to cover) are the same as the fiery stones (Eze.28:14,16 – those walked amongst) seems doubtful to me. Those fiery stones may be coals, but I wouldn’t argue that point after looking at the word for fiery itself (Looks like I need to re-open that study). If the fiery stones are coals, then I would guess them to be altar coals (sacrificial or incense). Since incense is prayer-related (Rev.8:3) and Isaiah’s lips were cleansed, I would say these were incense coals.

      repressed spirit (metaphysical nonmaterial aspect): You are probably correct about repressed not being in there. Sorry. But first you have to answer my Rom.7:9 question from Post 190, before I make my response. That’s only fair, and it seems like I have asked you this more than once. Zero anomaly tolerance.

      new creation only means a “changed heart”?: The change of heart I am speaking of is not a run-o-the-mill changed heart, but involves the grafting of the HS with our own metaphysical spirit, which, if you look at it from a broader aspect, is a new creation.

    • patrick

      Angels (As) & demons (ds) are treated distinctly. Fallen As (FAs) are never refed as ds or vice versa. No d is ever refed as being in heaven, but only on earth. A’s are freqly refed as being in heaven. Satan (S) & his FAs fight against Mishael & his As. The battle is in heaven – S & his FAs are cast out. Are ds in heaven? 2 types of OT ds – saweers & shades. What determines the type of d a FA becomes, if ds = FAs? The refs to As indicate their man-ish appearance, not goats, locusts, women, etc. FAs had children by women – no d is refed as doing that. Ds come out the mouths of the dragon, beast & false prophet. If S has a d (FA), this is odd. Gabriel was delayed by the prince of Persia (evidently a FA). Ds are never refed as princes, but As (Mishael). FAs are concerned w/ offspring (sons of God cohabiting w/ women, long hair a covering), or w/ securing realms (heavenly domains & nations) to rule. FAs want to see who’s greatest, pitting nation vs. nation – w/ the stronger god prevailing. No d is ever interested in earthly realms, other than a human host. Ds are concerned w/ possessing men (spirit’ly, phys’ly & ment’ly). No FA ever entered a man as is mostly the case w/ ds – except S, who entered Judas; but S was a cherub, & so is unique, not being in the form of an A, who are in man’s image. S draws 1/3 of the As to himself. His army is woefully small, him being on offense. If ds don’t = FAs, then this helps balance the 2 armies’ sizes (powers of light vs. dark). If there are 2 separate d classes (saweers & shades), & each is prop. in # w/ 1 another & = in # to the FAs, then this balances the 2. If God’s army is 3xs the size of S’s, then where is the glory? Doesn’t God need to show that His righteousness beats great odds? Do d-possessed men actually produce giants when they mingle w/ women? If ds = FAs, then why, when the sons of God (ds) cohabited w/ women because they saw they were beautiful, do ds also possess men?

    • Jay Altieri

      Rom 7:9 Thought I already answered in #177. 0anom!
      #186, good analogy. I like it. Definitely helpful for explaining your perspective. My twist also with non-perfect analogical thought: I would say that Mom is dead. The kid is an orphan living in the house by himself. He doesn’t know anything except trashing the place. He thinks trashing is normal. One day the kid gets old +dies and is held for trial by the Landlord as you said. Another kid who lives down the street, also an orphan with the same problem of a dead mom, meets a glory-kid named Jesus. Miraculously, mom comes back to life. Kid shapes up his behavior. Mom +Kid live happily ever after with Landlord.

      One difference would be you said that all moms are basically the same. Mom is a commodity. Everybody has mom. All moms are alike. No so for my system. My mom is different from your mom, just like my house is different from your house. The orphan kid, tragically never knew his mom. This is where the analogy falls apart- my orphan kid never even had a mom. In your analogy kid+mom are both PEOPLE(soul+spirit are similar structures)

      A better analogy for my system would be 2 HOUSES. Body+spirit are analogous structure. Soul(mind) dwells therein. Every Kid has a valley house, but the termites in the valley are bad. Kids that meet the GloryKid Jesus, receive a Mountain house too. Kid has 2 houses, one in the valley and one in the mountains. GloryKid is our roommate in the mountains.

      #190 “Hope for res” vrs “no afterlife.” Resurrection is the bodily final state. OT prophets anticipated this Job 19:25-26; Isa 26:19; Dan 12:2.
      Resurrection is the reanimation of the body. This is the promise to Israel and the hope of believers. It will be eternal life in the redeemed new earth. Sin+sinners will be extinct.

      Afterlife is an intermediate state before the resurrection. It is where dead souls go. My point was that OT prophets believed in the first but not the second.

    • patrick

      Can’t post my reponse to your “spirit has limited emotion” post. The upshot is that some of the words are a condition (not emotive), but that most of the remaining emotive words are anger-based, except for pride & humility, which I need to account for in terms of pride being a bad aspect that the spirit can develop (as opposed to my former statement that all spirits were good, and essentially the same – wrongo!) So a spirit can learn bad things, though it starts out good. Thanks!

    • patrick


      A few brief observations about our views on man’s spirit:

      I have read that you believe man’s OT spirit was merely non-metaphysical breath. I have read that many people in the OT suffered from breathing problems (usually accompanied by a state of agitation) & that this was merely a physical condition as opposed to a SPIRITual one. I have read about the emotional OT breath that is troubled, perked up, anguished, jealous, sorrowful, stirred up, understanding, humble, etc. & all the while you emphasize that the OT spirit was just breath. You have likened our NT spirits to that of the spirits of demons &/or angels that were in existence before OT times, which were & are metaphysical, non-breathing creatures, but it seems after all that man’s spirit is not really his own (nor did he ever even have breath according to Jude), but is the HS, which does not attach with us in any way.

      However, on some points you have shown me certain aspects of the words in play for spirit & soul that do not fall precisely in line with my own interpretations. Yet, it seems you have similar problems concerning the above items. Perhaps we need to discuss the potential that we are both somewhat in error & that the real truth (as often is the case) lies in the middle-ground between 2 views?

    • patrick


      Your quench = my quench, but God’s fury toward sinners, after His warning, will not change – ever. He will not wake up 1 day & say, “I have changed My mind!” God doesn’t change – no shadow of variation in Him. A week after the GWTJ God will not say, “You know, I may have been a little too hard on those depraved souls. Let’s turn down the heat a little.” They will have been found (in the GT) to have been violent, cruel murderers & sorcerers who willfully accepted the Satan’s mark, trampling the cross of the Messiah & counting the Spirit of God as a common thing – which is an unpardonable offense. God will not be changing His mind about Satan either. 7K yrs & His attitude is still the same. 4ever means 4ever. Edom will be burning 4ever. The concept might be that the new earth will have a new core that Edom will be turned into. The new place of the dead returns to the center of the earth.

      Eze.28:18 – I don’t get too hung up on tenses when it comes to God – Rom.4:17. What is an imperfect or perfect verb to Him who is & was & is to come? If the dragon is turned to ash (dust) in the LoF, then the prophecy is fulfilled, but I wonder about efer & afer – is there something going on there? “Afer thou are and to apher thou shall return”, and “you shall eat afer all the days of your life”, and “seeking whom he may DEVOUR”. The dust eater turned to efer? What’s your take on Satan’s trans in form? Nawkhash & taneen are an interesting pair of seemingly interchangeable words, but I doubt that nawkhash, who are poisonous, were ever a part of the original Creation. Transmogrifications seem to be an early-on theme in Gen. This matches the effects of sin, & goes to show the effect the spiritual can have on the physical – much as I was saying about disease.

      Eze.28:19 – after he is turned into efer Satan “will be a terror no more.”

    • Jay Altieri

      #195 Peleg, I don’t think this has any relevance to AB. I feel a little guilty for consuming Michael’s blog disk storage space talking about this. I wish you would email me for these off base conversations, besides I want a personal introduction of who you are. Patrick, you have forced me to rethink, clarify and detail much of my thesis more than my book even includes. Now I’ll have to do a 2nd ed. Thank you, that is a big complement, most people are not as detailed and analytical. Even if we disagree on some points of theology, we are obviously kindred hearts. I love your most recent idea that perhaps we are both wrong. I’m sure I’m wrong on many things. That’s ok. Being wrong helps us to learn and grow. Only a problem when ego gets stuck on our idea. Thanks for your help, Let’s keep learning.

      Back to Peleg-I can’t resist. There are 2 evangelical opinions, both consistent with the text for extent of Mabool.
      1st-your idea: Global. preflood Pangea was small, tight, and flatter. Kangaroos (Austr only) and raccoons (NorthAm only) could easily walk to ark. After Mabool, they scattered to respective regions. After that the continents broke up. Continents didn’t break up during flood, (or kangaroos would be trapped w/ Noah). Overall, your idea is probably consistent w/ text, but has serious problems with history and common sense logic, which I will be happy to detail for you in an EMAIL.
      2nd theory toward which I lean is that Mabool was regional. It was centered in ANE, it wiped out humans (save Noah’s family). Koalas, orangutans, Kodiak bears unaffected. For study of the hyperbolic language about “all high mountains covered” see my study here:
      You said that Peleg was 2 gen after Babel incident. How do you figure that? Genealogies give us names of people but do not benchmark events. Except for Peleg being born during the “Division”, which I think is the Babel incident, self referencing with Gen 11

    • Jay Altieri

      #187 1 Cor 5:5 That is a tough one, but in the end I disagree. I concur with your observation about him being leaven, but note also 1Cor 5:10+11. KJV says this man is “called a brother.” That is a little sarcastic translation as if he is not really a brother but he falsely purports to be one. ESV is a little better. He is named as brother. This word is a verbal cognate of a powerful word ‘onoma.’ To have a name in antiquity is to have character, being, personhood. I don’t have characters to fully develop the significance of naming in Scripture, but would recommend some independent study. To have a name is to have existence and reality. Notice in Eph 5:3 the same scenario, using much of the same vocab. Paul is writing to real Christians in Ephesus. Apparently it is possible for fornication to be named among true believers.
      Thus, my conclusion: I think the guy in 1Cor 5:5 is a born again believer, albeit backslidden and at risk for spiritual death. So his spirit is alive, at least for the moment. Spirits died in the past, so they can die again if you DONT nurture it and if you DO poison it.

      You think John3:3 is future of the bodily resurrection? So you are saying that we are not born again today? It hasn’t happened yet? Rebirth occurs at the Coming of Christ? Ouch, what do we have today? Only a 2000yr old promise, yet unfulfilled? I see this totally differently. After Pentecost, upon salvation the believer is reborn. His pneuma is re-created as new creation. It is an ontological birth in the spiritual dimension. As I said baby spirits can die, so it is important to feed it. For present tense re-generation, see 1Pet 1:3; 1Pet 1:23 both use the word anagennao. Peter uses very similar words from Jesus’ vocab, but this time it is present tense. We are reborn now.

    • Jay Altieri

      #191 Agreed that ‘hell’ mean hidden. The Nordic baggage of that word very heavy. Hel was daughter of chaotic Loki in Viking myth. She shares name with underworld. She presides over unclean halls of shameful dead. Vikings thought heaven+hel were like giant buildings. Val hall is best place reserved for valiant warriors who fall in battle; Thor is there +plenty good beer. There are 9 halls to heaven for virtuous and 9 halls to hel for cowardly. Exactly as you said, in medieval English and German hell came to mean hidden. To hellen onions was to keep them in shallow pit.

      #195 you said that Mabool “wiped away all evidences of man.” But going wayway back to post#85, you were thinking that Neo Assyria of Eze period was named after the pre-deluge mythic civilization also called Assyria. It appears to either be wildly coincidental that they share the same name or the remembrance is an evidence that survived the flood.

      #204 Agreed that hardened breath is idiomatic for “set his jaw against.” I think we are saying the same thing here. My point is that rauch in OT means thought +emotion. Sometimes it is good thought, sometimes it is bad thought. Which by definition, a priori, is from nephesh. In OT I do NOT see tripartite psychology. Which is evidence that in OT 3 parts didn’t exist, only after Resurrection did pneuma gain metaphysical definition.

      Changed heart-new creation means grafting w/ HS? How does that fit with new birth? When you mix 2 preexisting ingredients (think cake batter) it comes out a new item. This is grafting as in Rom 11 olive tree. Israel is preexisting, gentiles are attached. However, new birth language seems more distinct than that. Birth bring something from nothing. What you are describing is a gameo (marriage) of spirits, not a gennao (birth)of spirit. Pun intended. 1John 3:9 our spirit BORN of god, then after that event, you are correct in that we are MARRIED to Jesus. I think you are skipping a step.

    • Jay Altieri

      #180 Unsaved person can’t hold their breath too long proves that they have a spirit? Maybe I didn’t understand your point, but people can’t hold their urine after a certain time, or their farts either. How do these bodily functions (breathing/peeing/pooting) have anything to do with metaphysical spirit?

      #203 We have much agreement. I fully agree with Edom as figurative for endtimes beast, you would like my Edom PP on website.
      I’m ok with Edom as LoF, I agree that LoF is a literal geographic locale. A trash pit (Gehenna) wherein all is turned to ash. You need to read my book, this is covered. However, I disagree that a perpetual burning Edom will suck into the center of the earth. Edom would be a pimple on the face of the NHNE. I like your creation days imaging menorah branches. I understand +do not object. I also like Isa 11:2 =7 spirits of Rev 4:5 =7dispensations. I’ve not studied this, but don’t object. If you have link or reading resource for further studydetails, pls direct. How would you ordinate the 7?
      7= of YHWH
      1+4= wisdom +understanding
      2+5= counsel+might
      3+6= knowledge+fear I’m not sure what any of that means, but possible parallels are interesting.

      I’m definitely more skeptical when this is stretched into 7k time epochs. 4thM= 1adtill 1000ad=understanding. This was millennium of late roman empire, Gothic invasions, dark ages, Islamic birth+ expansion. Only event qualified as “Understading” during this K is Constitintine’s conversion of the West.

      #206 FAs +Ds. Interesting theory. I’m not sure if they are different or same. If you have full length study link or paper that you have written, I’d be happy to review. I don’t have a dog in that hunt and don’t think it is applicable to this AB blogtopic, but am always willing to listen and learn.

    • Jay Altieri

      209- you are on target, brother. I fully admit that I aint got all the answers. I acknowledge my difficulty with OT rauch. OT rauch clearly has pride/trouble/no courage/etc. Yet my theory requires metaphysical spirit to be perfect and godlike image, so as you’ve pointed out my interpretation of OT rauch as purely temporal and not spiritual seems a little contrived. I need to polish that, but I think the nugget is there. Although my position is not JUST physical air breath, definitely has emotion, thoughts and close overlay with nephesh. The way that I figure it, this is all that they knew, because in my thesis man’s spirit had been dead since Eden.

      I do think NT pneuma continues with that same definition many times, eg: Luke 8:55 breath returned; James 2:26 no breathing is dead. But as I’ve said many times, something schema changing and metaphysical happens (Resurrection of Jesus) and a fresh coinage of the old word is introduced.

      I need a slight correction on my rauch study in OT. I’ve been saying that rauch doesnot have a spiritual metaphysical definition. That is not exactly correct. What I want to say is that rauch doesnot have a spiritual metaphysical definition as applied to HUMANS.
      The rauch of YHWH is used about 78x. An evil rauch (demon and/orFA)is used 14x. These are both spiritual metaphysical beings.
      I think the metaphysical aspect was poorly understood by ancient Israelites, it is undeveloped and never applied metaphysically to men.
      But none the less, there is an undertone of spirituality /metaphysical sometimes associated with the word. This gives the NT author a springboard for clarification and application of the pneuma with a metaphysical meaning as directly applied to believers.

    • Jay Altieri

      Quench. Agreed that God never changes. Think of sin as a debt. If I owe Him $100, then He will collect $100. If I owe him $500 then He will collect $500. If Jesus pays my debt for me, then I owe nothing. I am square with God, yet the debt has not been quenched. It was paid in full by Christ (Xp).
      If the sinner does not allow Xp to pay, than the onus of debt is upon yourself. Sin has wages. It must be paid. God always pays a fair and level wage, so that when the debt is paid it has not been quenched (prematurely extinguished), but neither does he exact punitive costs. God carries level scales. Not too heavy-not too light. A precise reciprocal of torment for sin will be levied in LoF.

      However, paying off a debt is totally different then buying into life. Eternal life cannot be bought. It is not for sale. This is the beautiful part. Jesus pays for my sin, as a legally binding contract with the Father, AND he gives me a gift of eternal life. Soo generous.
      The wicked however, do not receive the gift. They pay every last penny for their crimes and then they are snuffed out 4ever.
      You really need to read my book.

      Your no quench means that God’s anger is eternal. Not so, see Ps 85:5, Ps 103:9, Jer 3:12 . It means that somewhere in the cosmos exist wicked who are still acrimoniously cursing God. Not so, see 1Cor 15:28. It means that pain and suffering will be an eternal feature of the New Cosmos. Not so, see Rev 21:4.

      Eternal torment on the right wing says that God will punish and torture sinners 4ever. Universalism on the left wing says that ALL will enter heaven. Conditionalism is in the middle of the road. Sin+sinners will be exterminated. Justice will be had, evenly fairly, without vindictiveness. Then for eternity, every atom and every wisp ofspirit will be in unison with God. Total unity of the cosmos.

    • patrick


      I apologize for getting behind (I think about 8 posts), but work has been really crazy of late, and I have my daughter’s birthday coming up to boot! I am not ignoring you and will resume the posts when things settle down for me a little. Until then, God bless (and please don’t bury me in post sheol – my nephesh would be in agony – ha ha). See ya!

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, don’t worry about getting behind. you’ll catch up soon enough. I’d still like for you to email me with a personal introduction exchange of who we are and where we come from, church/education background, etc. That sort of stuff probably shouldn’t be on the internet. According to the dates on the posts, we’ve been at this since June 24. I’d like to know more about with whom I am conversing. Are you in the US? Are you in jail? Are you in the same building as me? Please email me at jay at drymalla dot com.

      Ok now down to business:
      Your 208″spirit can learn bad things” interconnects with my #200- Mat 10:28 “spirit is not judged.” If the spirit learns bad things then why is it not destroyed along with body+soul? Individual personal spirit would have culpability and should be punished, yet scripture teaches (Gal 5:17) that metaphysical spirit is always pure and just-juxtaposed to the flesh. It is not present in the wicked that get killed per Mat 10:28.

      In post155, we agreed that spirit is always good. 1John 3:9 real life experience confirms that legitimate Christians DO sometimes sin, so I interpret this verse to mean that such sin never comes from the spirit (that which is born of God). Also 1Pet 1:23 we have incorrupable seed. You had previously said that being born again (John 3:3) was still a future promise of the resurrection, I must disagree. We are born again now.

      I like this you said in 209 trying to understand my thesis:”seems after all that man’s spirit is not really his own, but is the HS.”
      Maybe I need to develop that? Perhaps instead of a personal spirit, what we are given is actually a piece of God?

      Rom 4:17 Thanks that is a good verse for me to add to my repertoire. God calls into existence stuff that doesn’t exist. This verse appears to backup what I’m saying. God created something new +fresh in the faithful that had not been there before. I think it is the regenerated, reborn, re-created pneuma.

    • Jay Altieri

      Efer+afer, you have excellent points. I think there is definitely a close association. I suspect the words are related. Consider: Gen 18:27; Job 13:12; Job 30:19; Job 42:6.
      The destiny of man (and also of disobedient spirits per Eze 28:18) is to return to the ashen state. This means utter destruction of everything that is you, holistically even nephesh[mind personality]. All of the sinner is disintegrated, decomposed, atomized. Another words, they don’t exist anymore. Even the pneuma (in case of FA only) is turned to pixie dust, which I’m likening to a spiritual version of physical ash. In my system the human spirit disintegrated long ago, it is only by a resurrection miracle that we have one today.

      Do you have fireplace at home? Take a big oak log. It weighs much. It has bark, wood grain, billions of cells of cellulose and plant fiber. Burn it overnight. It turns to ash. A fine powdery substance. Chemically it is very different from wood. Ash is almost pure carbon, whereas the wood was a much more complex organic molecular structure with lots of O2 and N3.
      Modern science cannot turn back the process. Turning wood into ash is easy with a match, but turning ash into wood is impossible (except for God via resurrection).

      My point is that if Satan and all the wicked are turned to ash, then the remaining pile is not Satan and/or the wicked anymore. It will be irreversible, the consequences will be eternal, for there will never be any resurrection from the 2nd death. This is good news, all sinners all sin all evil will be utterly destroyed and the cosmos will be safe and pure throughout eternity.

      210- 4ever means 4ever? Basically what you are implying is 4ever as used in Scripture means 4ever as defined in modern west.

      I blogged about this elsewhere here: http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/06/folk-theology-twenty-urban-legends-in-theology/comment-page-1/#comment-98169

    • patrick


      Still loaded at work, but thought I would try to get a quick response out.

      Mat.10:28 only mentions body & soul: Yes, because men fear having their bodies destroyed, but the LoF will destroy the soul (not the spirit because there aren’t bad human spirits, although I still owe you an explanation about “proud” spirits – on my to-do list). When the body dies the soul is dead, but it’s not like body-dead. Soul-dead & body-dead are very different. Soul dead seems to be the lack of input – if at rest in AB, lack is not experienced because the soul sleeps; if not at rest, then in the place of torment, than lack will drive you crazy. If under the altar of souls (persecuted to death) then not sleeping or lacking, but awake in a great place of joy.

      Are you saying the spirit is just a “Christian soul bucket”? Please provide refs, if so.

      Which Old Testament human spirits returned to God who gave them, as stated in Eccl., and according to your interpretation?

      I believe martyrs are those who are killed for the 1 of 2 reasons GIVEN in the Rev. There really can be no question about that – can there?

    • patrick

      I had some time last night, and thought I might try some new verses on you. Please interpret the following in light of no spirit of man prior to around the time of the ascension of Messiah:
      Num.16:21&22, Num.27:16, Prov.16:2, Hos.9:7

      Also, here’s one:
      Heb.12:22&23 – if the spirits of just men are made perfect, is that the same as them (spirits) coming back into existence with the good confession? It doesn’t sound so to me. Made perfect kind of sounds like its functioning, but not on all cyliders until the HS comes in.

      1Pet.3:18&19 in light of 1Pet.4:6 – if not the spirits of antediluvians, then who? Angels are not DEAD, as 4:6 states, and these are definitely pre-Mabool spirits!

      1Joh.4:1 – NT false prophets have spirits? Comp. w/vs. 5. I suppose you’ll say these are demon-possessed, but it sounds like just guys to me. Are they saved?

      Rom.7:14, Rom.15:27 & 1Cor.10:3&4 – why would God give Israel “spiritual things” if they were spiritually dead. Seems kind of futile, don’t it?

      I haven’t read your latest posts yet, so hope I’m not missing something there, but, I WILL GET TO THEM SOON, and looking forward to it. Hope all is well. God bless you.

      Rom.7:14 –

    • Jay Altieri

      Christian soul bucket: yes I like that. Thanks. Yes that is the idea. We agree soul=mind personality consciousness. I get it from dichotomy between OT death of being vrs NT with Christ (Phil 1:23; 2Cor 5:6-9) ,seeing His glory (John 17:24), Live even though dead (John 11:25), +many others. Adam DIED the same day he sinned vrs Jesus (2ndAdam) makes ALIVE.
      Body is a soul bucket too. Everybody has a physical soul bucket for about ave70yrs. Christians have restored to them what Adam had before the fall, an immaterial soul bucket. But Eden is only partially restored (Already-not yet tension) someday in resurrection, we will get deathproof body too.

      I think you are confusing the Greek word ‘martyrios’ used in NT with the English word ‘martyr.’ Gk word simply means having testimony, being a witness, it is a legal word from a jury trial. By the 3rd cent it became apparent that if you were a testimony for Jesus- they killed you. English word means to die for Christ. Biblically, you cannot rule out from under the altar Xp’s (Chi-Ro) like me+you who are Witnesses but are not Killed. Your interpretation is superimposing a 4thC definition onto a 1stC text.

      As for Ecc 12:7 see post 133. Ecc 12:5 olam bayit (eternal home) is the grave. Man is granted 70yrs(Ps 90:10). 70 is a drop in the bucket-nothing in terms of the world (Jam 4:14). But the grave is forever (Ps 49:10-11; Job 7:9-10; Ps 78:39) Job 17:13 says sheol is my ‘bayit.’
      Silver cord loosed, golden bowl broken, pitcher shattered, wheel busted: all 4 sayings are parallel for when body dies, which is context of whole chapter. Must ignore New Age garbage about silver cord being life giving linkage to astral self. It is same as wheel busted. When you’re dead you can no longer praise God (Ps 115:17; Isa 38:18).

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, I’m fixen to be away from wifi. I’ll read and ponder your wisdom but probably not post back much. Pile it on deep as you dare and I’ll reply to everything when possible. This is your chance to get caught up. If you email me I’ll give you the whole story.
      But 1quick answer, while I’m here. 1Cor 10:3-4 Israel received MIRACULOUS food and drink. Pneumatikos= pertaining to the spirit. God is a spirit, thus pertaining to God. Manna, quail, water were all of God.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, are you still out there listening and thinking about the intermediate state? There were numerous posts from August to which I never heard your thoughts.

    • Gary Wentz

      Blessings in the Lord to all here.

      This has been an interesting thread to read. Thanks to all contributors.

      It seems to me that the Bible says very little about these things; but that doesn’t stop us from expounding much about them. I hope that none of us is putting too much emphasis on the little things, only to miss the big picture.

      May I take this opportunity to share a theory of mine?

      I see that life exists in 3 realms (but not for us). They are:
      1. The physical realm (the time, space, matter universe we are in)
      2. The spiritual realm (the place where angels dwell – what Paul called the third heaven)
      3. The Divine realm (that place where created beings cannot go; where God alone dwells)

      Think of these as concentric circles, with the physical in the middle; then the spiritual; then the Divine. The angels can pass between their realm and ours, but we cannot (not without divine intervention) and God, of course, permeates (or inhabits) all three.

      I hope that this is biblically consistent.

      My take on the discussion at hand is that if the physical realm is so vast; why can’t the spiritual realm be even more vast (if vastness is a characteristic of it)? Who can say with certainty what divisions or chambers or regions it is made of?

      It seems to me that one of the most profound differences between our temporal state and our eternal state is that we will have perfect knowledge on the other side. I think it is this knowledge that makes all the difference in what Paul calls being in the presence of the Lord. Perhaps it is having an awareness of his presence that we cannot relate to here. ie, when we have shed our sinful bodies and moved on to the next realm, could we not simply be acutely aware of our Lord’s omnipresence?

      Personally, I have no problem with some sort of intermediate state (whatever that is) between this body and the next (which Paul calls a mansion in comparison). I think that there is much more to the reality than we can…

    • patrick


      Still working long hours, but need to catch up some.

      Ham marry Naamah?: Yes, there’s a difference in the # of gens between Cain’s line and Seth’s, but it appears both line are up to 1656AM. Naamah and Ham were the last gens before the Mabool. The difference in gen #s may be an indication about slower giant maturity toward reproduction, or the debit placed on Cain’s line due to a lack of available girls taken. God does care about genetics, that’s why He put discreet boundaries on all kinds (seed within itself). The nephilim are fallen ones – no redemption possible. Might be a soul issue. Do angels have souls?

      Kings in Sheol: In terms of Eze.32 & nephilim speaking from sheol theory, see Eze.32:21 & Eze.32:27 (the mighty are the neph). Most of the kings you sited are NOT the mighty, but some are: Edom is Esau. Esau took Edom (formerly Senir), reckoned mighty in Eze.32:29, from the Horites – giants.
      Kings of the north and Sidonians are reckoned mighty. Sidon was a giant town. The Caucasus (sp?) region (north) is definitely known for giants historically, but don’t think Scriptures ref. I don’t assign any post-Mabool nations as pre-Mabool, unless I am cleared to do so from the Word. But look at the names of places in America – did we name any of our places from past places? I think it would be similar, but wouldn’t want to argue the point. The point is the neph MAY be the mighty who speak from sheol.

      Is Pharaoh nephal?: Mizraim was a son of Ham, & several refs to tall Egyptians; monolithic structures only from the early kingdom, which is otherwise weird (cultures usually aspire to grand works, not start and quickly fall off). Pharaoh means ‘great house’, and Egypt is a figurative portrait of death (not the world as most commonly taught). So I would say ‘Yes’ to nephal.

    • patrick

      #178 Abaddon = Shakhath: Abaddon is not dead – correct – angels do not die. I believe it can be inferred that he is indeed is in Sheol, both from Rev.9 and Job 28:22. Where do you think he hangs his hat? I’m surprised you didn’t relegate him to being just a metaphor. Way to go, bro!

      Bottomless Pit is a sub-compartment of Sheol for spirits only. Shades and saweers – need to look that one up for you. That’s going way back, have to check my notes. Sayir = saweer (I have my own handles, as I write a lot, and have assigned names). Shaggy, tempestuous, sea goat, which is a class of demon. Lends support to sinning. Shade – devouring demon related to disease, though doctors don’t seem to comprehend; best represented by the plagues of locusts mentioned several times in the Scriptures. I also assign the women with wings (Zec.) as demons – call them Astrals. Related to sorcery/divination, etc.. I’ll dig up more for you on this topic when I can.

      All nations are under the jurisdiction of angels. Today, only Israel stands under the watch of a holy one. At least that’s my take on the matter. I don’t remember America that well – seems like a dream that had already faded when I was born back in ’60. It died around the time of the Civil War by my reckoning, maybe a little earlier.

      I live in Indiana, within a 200 mile radius of Indy. Never seen prison. Never got caught! Haha. Am an aero engineer. Been saved since ’90. Don’t have the internet at home – too much distraction/not reliable, so post from work at lunch or after.

      Hope you are still around. I’ve missed the exchanges.

    • Jay Altieri

      Hello Patrick, We have both been away for awhile. Good to have you back. I was on vacation for a couple of weeks. We went to Iceland. Yes Iceland: volcanoes, glaciers, waterfalls, seals, stunning scenery. Email me and I’ll send you a picture.
      #221 Num 16:22; 27:16; Prov 16:2 are interesting because they are among the few verses in the bible that use the plural ‘spirits’ (rauchot). YHWH is the god of the spirits of all flesh. Usually the plural rauchot is used about the 4winds eg: Dan 11:4; Jer 49:36, etc. Sometimes multiple angels eg: Zech 6:5; Ps 104:4.
      I think “harauchot lekal basar” (I wish we could do Hebrew font) is best translated the breaths (pl) of all flesh. That sounds funny in Eng because our word breath is both singular and plural at same time. The meaning is that God is giver of life to all creatures (all flesh types). Satan does not have power of life, only God. Satan cannot even resurrect a bug! Thus the dispensational theory that Satan resurrects the Antichrist in the last days (head would healed per Rev 13:3) is foolishness.

      Prov 16:2 YHWH weighs the breaths (pl). Not meaning air from respiration, but thoughts from talking. You are accountable for what you say. See also Prov 21:2 God weighs the heart; 1Sam 2:3 weighs actions. For God to weigh an immaterial metaphysical spirit would be silly. Are big+tall spirits better then skinny spirits? NLT +NIV have good translation-God weighs the motives.

      Hos 9:7 is probably speaking of demons. “The prophet is a fool, the man of the spirits(pl) is crazy.” Clearly not speaking of God’s prophet or God’s Holy Spirit. Must be demon spirits(pl).

      Good to have you back with stimulating questions and thoughts. Be blessed in Yeshua.

    • patrick


      Regional Mabool: I disagree w/ a local Mabool (Heb word is unique). GLOBAL. The geolog rec confirms, despite science’s musings. Young earth. Clams everywhere up & down the fossil record. Cambrian EXPLOSION. No organisms before, & mostly fish besides clams. Fossil evidence of death on such a wide scale would otherwise make death natural, not a judgment. If natural (per science), then the gospel is silly. 600′ deep mudflow covers the US – all laid down at the same time. To get a fossil a body must be buried fast, & deep, to prevent decay. Also needs the right minerals & watery conditions to assure deposition to replace bone. Nothing accounts better than a global water cataclysm, because fossils are everywhere. The ark’s specified size was overkill if your proposal is correct, but the given dimensions are comparable to a modern (stable) barge, unlike Gilgamesh’s cubic descriptn. Sunken monoliths are worldwide, almost always off continental seacoast shelves, etc… What is ANE (center of flood)? No pre-Mabool “high mountains” as today, but more like what we would call hills. Much evidence exists requiring major mountain ranges to be considered as young. Good read: Ages in Chaos, by I. Velikovsky. Although I don’t agree w/ his theology, he respected the OT & was ostracized for it by science. He gave the global evidences, which really pile up. Several other Christian scientists have similar works, but Dr. V has the best collection, w/ refs. He was multi-disciplined.

      Peleg was 2 gens after Babel incident. How do you figure?: Nimrod founded Babel. Peleg is 2 gens after Nimrod (you have to use the gospel gen, which includes Cainan). Peleg’s name is associated w/ both earthquake & water action. The Scriptures state that in “Earthquake’s” days the earth was divided – Gen.10:25. Not the diaspora from Babel, when man was scattered across, Gen.11:9 – 2 gens gives man enough time to travel far away, animals had even longer.

    • patrick


      You think John3:3 is future of the bodily resurrection?: In the strictest sense, yes! I fully agree with you about the present tense of being reborn – if I didn’t I would not be saved! Upon a good confession of Messiah, we are repeated told we are immediately given the Spirit. We are currently in a state of being nurtured & equipped by the Spirit, which is extremely important & not to be glossed over. We are students, or disciples of Messiah. The Spirit is given us as a seal and a guarantee – 2Cor.1:21-22 & 2Cor.5:4-5 – but to imagine that we are FULLY born again & not account for our resurrection, and our final deliverance from the sin nature would be ludicrous, in my opinion. For some strange reason the Church seems bent upon masking this concept from view. We will stand on our feet to be confirmed in the resurrection under a state of duress. Death is our release from sin, but resurrection through Messiah is truly REBIRTH into new life, and the focal point of our salvation. At that time we will be dead to sin, abiding in the Spirit, shunning all former sins that so easily beset us today. When Paul stated, “that which I will to do…” he was addressing our CURRENT situation, but there is coming a day when “that which we will to do, that WE WILL DO,” through the indwelling Spirit that bodily clothes us with His power and glory. Yes, we are reborn now and figuratively “see” the kingdom of God, but YES, we will be reborn in the resurrection and THEN literally “see” the kingdom of God. Rom.7:24-25 indicates that the flesh must also be dealt with. The last enemy to be overcome is death.

    • Jay Altieri

      #221 Heb 12:23 Grammar, grammar, grammar. Notice assembly of the firstbornS is plural. Prototokon not Jesus (He is singular in person), this is many. It don’t mean firstborn chronologically, that was Jesus. It means that their spirit is firstborn before the flesh (body res). This agrees perfectly down to the conjugation of the genitive adj with my theory. The spirit of believers is born first at salvation and spiritual regeneration, then at the Parousia+resurrection the body is reborn too.

      Notice that these spirits are an assembly/company/church. To have a congregation of spirits strongly implies they are awake +conscious. There is no church of dead unconscious people in the grave. Sheol is a place of solitary loneliness, not a place of communal assembly.
      Notice that the verb enrolled/registered/written is perfect tense. Past tense and completed action. Since the body res hasn’t happened yet, it must mean the spirit’s new birth.

      “and to the spirits (pl) of righteous people who have been perfected”
      The root verbal ‘perfected’ =’telos’= aim, event, purpose. God’s goal was redemption/salvation.
      The verb is plural, masculine and perfect (past) tense, meaning that the goal is fully complete.
      Put it all together and what we have= God’s plan of redemption of these many human spirits, now found innocent through Jesus, is fulfilled and complete. Notice it does not say the souls (mind) of righteous people, because that would require body resurrection for completion.The whole passage is a comparison Sinai vs Zion. Law=death, but Jesus=Life. Do you think these perfected spirits are dead?

      Sorry, but your notion that to be completed there must have been an incomplete spirit preexisting to start with is not supported by the text. I humbly suggest that is only in your head. God’s completion of His plan is not contingent on our preexistence.
      Thus, yes I agree with your 1st thought: It is “same as them (spirits) coming back into exist with the good…

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, I feel that you have taken 1Pet 4:6 out of context. There is nothing about pre-flood nephalim in the passage. Step back for a moment and do a speed read of the entire book. Forget your pet theory momentarily. The book of 1Pet is about suffering for the sake of Jesus, while we eagerly await His return. I wish pre-tribbers would do a speed read, but that is another blog. 1Pet 4:5 the wicked will have to account for every action, God will judge every person at the last day. Not just those who are currently alive at the time of the Parousia; the dead will also be judged. The gospel was preached (evangelizo) to people who are now dead. Of course they had been alive at the time of hearing it. This was written in the mid 60s. Peter has 30years of memories, people who have died, and still Jesus has not yet comeback.

      Peter used same phrase in Acts 10:42, where he was commanded to evangelize living people of his own time.
      “judged in the flesh as men are so judged” means that they died. Death is the judgment given to men, because death is the wages of sin. This death happens after the evangelizing. Notice first they were evangelized, then they died bodily. But because they had been evangelized, their spirit (inner man) lives. NLT has the best translation of this oft bungled verse: “That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead–so although they were destined to die like all people, they now live forever with God in the spirit.”
      I prefer a small “s” indicating a personal spirit. Pneumati (in the spirit) is opposed to sarki “in the flesh”. The flesh of man dies, but the spirit of man can live. The life of the spirit is not universal for all humans, but is contingent upon acceptance of the gospel as presented earlier in the verse.

      This is the comfort of 1Pet 4. Although we are persecuted and hated, and will likely die for our faith, know that our spirit lives on.

    • Jay Altieri

      A refute to the notion that dead people from before the flood have been evangelized post mortem:

      If they die as unbelievers then they died as wicked sinners, correct? Consider Ps 115:4-8
      The idols are made of wood. Wood logs have carved ears, but cannot hear. Notice Ps 115:8 the people that make idols (implicating ALL sinners- your modern idol may be money or sex) will become as the log without sight, hearing, taste, smell, touch.

      Pre-mabool sinners are dead. Also non-Christians who died last month are dead. None of them can hear or respond to the gospel. According to Rom 10:17 without hearing it is impossible to be saved.
      Thus the opportunity for repentance is only available to the living, for the dead cannot respond. TODAY is the day of salvation (2Cor 6:2).

    • Jay Altieri

      As for 1Pet 3:18-19 partially answd in#176-spirits=demons, not human.
      Notice that Christ goes to “spirits in prison” AFTER he is quickened by Holy Ghost. The holy ghost does not teleport around with dead cadavers. He makes alive. Quicken means to make alive, to resurrect, to animate something. So after Jesus was resurrected, THEN he went to the prison house of demons. Point being-many people think Jesus did this during those 3 days while he was dead. That is silly since dead people can’t DO anything.
      The word preached=kerusso. This not sameword used 1Pet 4:6 (evangelizo). Kerusso means proclaim as victor, a herald. What was Jesus proclaiming? His resurrection! Conquering death and sin! Crowned Master of Universe to whom ALL authority has been grntd! This is further evidence that event occurred AFTER the Res. Paul says that w/o Res all is waste time. There is no victory w/o Res. Preaching doesn’t necessarily mean sharing of the gospel. In this case, I think no option for salvation- because it was giving to FA+Ds.

      I associate 1Pet 3:19 with 2Pet 2:4 tartaroo (prison with chains) and with abyss (bottomless pit) Luke 8:31, Rev 9:2, Rev 20:3 and Jude 1:6 (under darkness). See my book at the end of chapter 1 for a review of these verses.

      The way I’m seeing it, a long ago these demons did something extra bad and got locked up in solitary confinement. No roaming about, they are chained. They are cutoff from rest of spirit and temporal world, so they had no clue what Jesus had accomplished. Satan+Legion and all the other regular duty demons probably had it figured out shortly after Easter morning. After the resurrection (possibly after Ascension), Jesus went to Tartaroo (2Pet2:4) in the spirit (1Pet 3:18) In the spirit another words it is not a temporal locale. Possibly it is chamber of LoF. He proclaimed God’s victory over creation. These prisoner demons would be sentient beings “under the earth” to fulfill Phil 2:10.

    • Jay Altieri

      For reasonable explanation about the “spirits”of 1Pet 3:19, Try this link: http://www.jba.gr/spirits-in-prison.htm
      My only critique is demon-human sex.

      RE#221 Good catch on 1John 4:1-3. 2possibilities: Either pneumata are breaths (preaching-witness) of the prophets (both false +true) which need to be tested. Or maybe these spirits are angels+demons which guide the human witness. Personally, I prefer the angel+demon guardianship idea but it could go eitherway w/o contradiction. False prophets do not have an inner man living spirit because they are not saved.

      #226 Abaddon. The Heb word used 6x (eg: Job 26:6) is synonymous with sheol, qevar, bowr. They all mean grave/death in poetic fashion. Rev 9:11 speaks of an individual badass FA of that name. Not Satan, but some other guy who has been locked up since days of Noah (see my post about preaching to spirits- Abaddon was presumably one of those spirits). The angel named Abaddon is not in sheol, (although he is named after that place) because he is alive and sheol is not a real geographic locale- my position is that sheol is poetry for state of death.

      Abaddon the bad FA is currently in the abyss, tartaroo, under darkness. This is a real place with demons locked up, possibly it is a chamber of LakeFire. So our only difference is that you are ascribing it to sheol a metaphoric place of death, no action, no thoughts, no behavior.

      Agreed on modern medicine and politics denying spirit world involvement. Disagree that modern political nation of Israel is protected by angels. Holy angels encamp among the righteous only (Ps 34:7). Ps 91:11 believers only have guardian angels, notice the antecedent to “you” as given in Ps91:1.

      Modern nation of Israel does not dwell in the shelter of God. Jewish religion denies the messiah, as such they have become anathema (1Cor 16:22).

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, hope your having a good day.
      If Naamah was a hybrid giant and if Ham married Naamah, then Naamah got a boat ride on ark, so that Canaan/Anak and later descendants could still be hybrid giants. In #162 you said purpose of mabool was to wipe out nephalim. Did God fail his purpose since Naamah got past?

      My thought is that mabool was judgment on MEN (adam is Hebrew word for man), not on mystic hybrid demon/people soulless creatures. Have you been watching Doctor Who again? 🙂

      God’s discreet boundaries of seed within each kind is a good point. Are humans and angels of the same kind? 1Cor 4:9; 1 Cor 13:1; lists angels +men in contrast, they are different kinds.
      Ps 8:5 man is different kind from angels.
      Heb 1:13 Angels do not sit on Christ’s throne, but humans have that permission (Rev 3:21).
      Heb 2:5 Angels do not have dominion over the world, but humans do (Gen 1:26).
      Thus my conclusion, angels and people are of a different kind. Hybridization between different kinds is not possible.

      You ask: Do angels have souls? Although I don’t think the Bible gives a direct answer; Yes, I think they do. Our definition of soul is mind/thoughts/emotion/being, so obviously angels+fangels+demons and all other creatures have a soul. God is specifically said to have a soul in Lev 26:11; Lev 26:30; Isa 42:1; Zech 11:8; Mat 12:18; Heb 10:38.

      Perhaps what you meant was did Nephalim have a spirit? FA+Ds are a spirit, so if they had been sire, did Nephalim have a spirit? My theory is that before Christ nobody had spirit and there is no such thing as a hybrid.

      BTW Patrick, If you don’t have email at home, you could try a web based gmail or yahoo account, Its free. Then you could email me.

      What is your church affiliation and training background? You are quite knowledgeable, I’m impressed with your studies.

    • patrick


      Hey! You are swamping me when I am down! No fair!!! Try & show some restraint here, will ya?

      You stated: ‘#195 you said that Mabool “wiped away all evidences of man.” But … you were thinking Neo Assyria … was named after a pre-deluge civ. It appears to either be wildly coincidental that they share the same name or the remembrance is an evidence that survived the flood.’ Explan: The HS, speaking thru Eze, recalled pre-Mab Assyria – revelation. Noah’s sons would also have recollected it & told their kids. This would account for the reuse of the name. Pre-Mab Asshur may have been a hero among post-Mab men.

      In OT I do NOT see tripartite psych: I do, because all 3 are ref’ed. To me, the spirit is related to our survival instinct. The spirit strives to keep our BODIES alive, reacting to perceived threats – evidently sometimes w/ pride. I still maintain the Spirit-grafting scenario (intro/union of 1 spirit w/ the Other), because I still see the OT refs to spirit as mostly metaphys.

      God Born vs. HS grafting: 1John 3:9, NKJV reads ‘Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; & he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.’ I still sin. The chapter, to me, deals w/ life after our res – see 1John 3:2. Note also in 3:2 that He will be revealed. Does this happen when we die & go to heaven, or when we see Him coming on a cloud? When is Messiah revealed (1Cor.1:7, 1Pet.1:7, 1Pet.1:13)? The res is to the feet on earth. Our ultimate rebirth into new life: when we STOP sinning. Our grafting w/ the Spirit restores the Adam-severed spirit connection so that our eyes are opened to God. Adam’s fall produced eyes opened to his lack (his realized nakedness/shame due to NO MORE Spirit glory). The opening of his eyes did not kill his spirit, but blocked his connection w/ God so that he could comprehend evil. Reconnection allows the Spirit to renew our mind/soul (Rom.12:2), but spirit glory only comes after res.

    • Jay Altieri

      ok, your turn go again.

    • patrick


      I wasn’t being mean when I said you should show some restraint, but I think you posted me 6 Xs in a row! Low blow bro. I see Gary is interested in our posts – why not see what he has to say while I try to whittle down my backlog. You are a VERY curious fellow.

      Unsaved person can’t hold their breath too long proves that they have a spirit?: I never said that, you did. Don’t marginalize me or I’ll hold my breath till my spirit pops out! I was attempting to make the point that a man’s spirit, which animates his flesh, allowing the soul a means of getting around to experience life, is emotive when it comes to survival. Other spirit functions were severed when Adam disobeyed God: his spiritual access to God, along with his Spirit-provided glory. Both are now blocked. Salvation based on confession of Messiah cures the former right away, but the latter only comes when we see Yeshua at His revelation in the clouds.

      I fully agree with Edom as fig for endtimes beast: Edom is the grapes that go into the winepress of God’s wrath, and the lion’s share of the geog of the LoF. You could say that the beast will be cast into “Edom” (the Lof), but the beast is not Edom. I won’t argue whether Edom becomes the new earth’s core, as I can’t support it. Merely musings. I will say that it has to go somewhere, because it is 4ever.

      I like Isa 11:2=7 spirits of Rev 4:5=7dispensations: I haven’t heard anyone else mention this. It’s my personal belief.

      How to ordinate the 7?: Try 2Pet.1:5-7. Virtue (Fear of the Lord) through love (Spirit of the Lord). Love = 7, for it stands alone in Isa.11

      Not 7k time epochs, but 7, 1k yr epochs. The epochs aren’t laid out per our millennial dates, as you presented. Place Dan.9:25 at the 3,500 year mark working backwards & forwards & I suspect you will have it, but I wouldn’t trust to 517BC as being the correct hard date for when Dan’s clock started.

      FAs +Ds: You got my full condensed sermon on why Ds are not…

    • patrick

      …FAs in #206. See ya!

    • Jay Altieri

      Yes i got an email about Gary but oddly his post never showed up. Gary If your still out there, please try again. Feel free to jump into any thoughts or questions that look interesting.

      Your turn. Please catch up.

    • Jay Altieri

      Gary, I found your post up at 225. Guess I overlooked it. I thought it never got posted, but I did get an email. The post date is 10-1, but my email date was 10-3.
      Oh well, thanks for reading and listening to all this between Patrick and myself.

      I like your 3 spheres idea. I would clarify that in the divine sphere nothing really ever happens. Having an exclusive God sphere means that He is above creation, outside creation (contra pantheism). There was a point in eternity past when time nor matter existed, but God was there.
      I agree with your spiritual and physical spheres, but I would clarify that in the beginning before fall, they were holistically united in 1. God did not originally create the spheres disjointed and invisible. That is result of sin. When Adam sinned the spiritual world was rent away from the temporal world. When that happened, Adam’s presence in the spirit world ceased (died). This is the crux of one of our debates on this blog. Now we see darkly into spiritual things, as through a bad mirror, but in the restoration of all things, these 2 spheres will be merged. NHNE will again be like before the fall. The 2 will be synthetically recombined, so that in the eschaton we will have good knowledge of both halves of the universe, but we will never be omniscient.

      Currently, as physical bodies, we have a pretty good handle on the physical sphere, but we lack sorely in comprehension of the spiritual sphere. I suspect dead saints with Jesus during the intermediate period have exactly the opposite problem. They probably understand their own spirit realm well, but have a foggy notion of what goes on down here. Thus praying to saints is sort of worthless.

      The intermediate state is a reanimation of the inner man within that spirit realm (the ALREADY aspect), the synthesis of the 2 realms at the final resurrection will provide the NOT YET aspect.

    • patrick


      The way that I figure it, this is all that they knew, because in my thesis man’s spirit had been dead since Eden: If the Scriptures were merely the writings of men, then they would be useless, but the HS inspired men w/ truth, whether they understood spirit, or not. Breathing is a function of the spirit, just as animation, for the breathing must take place in order for animation to continue. I believe God, by grace, gave the first man his own spirit, & fellowship, through that life force, w/ His Spirit. The outward manifestation was glory, which served as a protection against harm (death) – again, even God’s Spirit is motivated to keep us in/raise us to a new life. If we had no remnant of our spirit left we would be both physically & spiritually dead. I also believe God can be witnessed in the Creation in this way: The Father represents space (in Him we live & move & have our being); the Son represents matter (He was seen & handled by men) – He is Ambassador to man, being the son of God and the Son of Man; the Spirit represents time – He energized the universe & started it in motion – He is the Comforter and Nurturer who raises from the dead. We have similar components w/in our own personages – we have a soul (mind), a body, & a spirit. W/out the spirit we would all be physically dead, & time would cease for us. In terms of OT understanding of spirit, consider the presence of demons – relatively little activity witnessed in the OT – only commentaries from above. But, when Messiah appears, THEN the demons have light shown on them – they are revealed in the presence of the Son of Man. So too, the spirit of men was also newly exposed & understood.

    • patrick


      The wicked … pay every last penny for their crimes and then they are snuffed out 4ever: You use the word quench in assoc. w/ paying a debt, which I am not familiar w/. Refs? The more Scriptural definition is that a debtor remains in prison (here, the LoF) until every last penny is repaid. Of course there is no means for repayment, because the man already rejected the help of the only Man that was willing to bail him out (pay His debt). As such he’ll never get out of his prison. 4ever. & God doesn’t change. Your view of paying for sins & then being snuffed out seems to indicate the snuffing out is better than the rendered payment. Your refs to God’s cessation of anger are all toward Israel, and so, are out of context. Israel has no part in the LoF. Israel is on a circuitous route to meet their Messiah in order to gain the Gentiles in the meantime. You say there will be no more death, but the LoF is the 2nd death. All things will be put under the Father’s feet immediately after the GWTJ, but men are cast in during the GWTJ – this places the duration of debt paying down to a very short time. Nowhere does it say that men will be cursing God from the LoF, but it does say tongues will be dissolved. No more tears deals with physical bodies, not souls in torment – souls can’t shed a drop. God does not punish/torture, but offers deliverance from punishment/torture. God saves.

    • patrick


      In terms of church affiliation, I suppose I would be most oriented toward Baptist because, in my opinion, they have the best overall doctrines, but, as you may have surmised, I do not follow all of their teachings. I am ashamed to say I’ve found little comfort in any church so far. As a result I continue to study at home, and teach my own family. I see my foremost duty as a father is to make sure they understand their spiritual choices, and equip my children to defend the Scriptures against modern science. My background is that I have read the Scriptures multiple times (once out loud), and for the last 10 yrs or so have turned my attention to topical studies. What about you?

      If the spirit learns bad things then why is it not destroyed along with body+soul?: I am still digesting the “proud spirit”, and haven’t come to any final conclusions yet. Before I met you I believed all the spirits of men were good, but oppressed, but now I am facing off with spiritual pride – the pride of life (spirit = physical life)? I have only found 3 verses on the subject: Prov.16:18, Prov.29:23, & Dan.5:27. If you were to believe that every man has his own spirit (I know, but play along), then what would you say about a prideful spirit? Should it be classified as good, or evil?

    • patrick


      You had previously said that being born again (John 3:3) was still a future promise of the resurrection, I must disagree. We are born again now: I never said we weren’t born again NOW – I believe we are, but the testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy, and, in its FULLNESS, we won’t be officially born again until we are raised from the dead to new life. The Scriptures bear this out by telling us to reckon ourselves dead to sin based on Messiah’s finished work. Well, if it’s telling us to reckon, and we know there is a literal time of reckoning coming when we WILL experience bodily death, is there no significance to that? We NEED a post-death body experience to be truly set free from sin into new life. Perhaps you’d like to take a stab at what Gal.4:19 really means. I find no difficulty in assigning our true born again experience on the day I’m raised to new life from the earth’s womb – Psa.139:13-15

      Perhaps … what we are given is actually a piece of God? Ok, so you and Shirley McClain have a lot in common. Come on bro, you’re scaring me! That comes at the marriage of the Lamb, when the 2 shall become 1.

      Rom.4:17: “…(as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he (Abraham) believed – God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;” When I quoted this vs., it was to say I do not get hung up on tense, but I suppose you could apply it to your theology concerning spirit, although Adam had it first (I.e., not something new, but very old).

    • patrick


      Efer+afer: Some of the verses you quote seem to use both terms as a colloquialism. I do not believe disobedient (immaterial) spirits will be reduced to ashes, but only the material dragon. Eze.28:18 therefore eliminates the possibility of the dragon being metaphysical. When you look at the Hebrew word for taneen (great sea creature), one of the meanings comes out as “a mercenary” (see Strong’s). The terms nawkhash and taneen are used interchangeably for Leviathan and Rahab (yes, I know it’s an epitaph for Egypt). The idea I have is that at some point early on, perhaps even during the latter days of the Creation, a taneen was induced to allow Satan to enter into it for some sort of compensation for assisting him in his rebellion. The physical aspect of ashes being the endpoint to the anointed cherub suggests some material manifestation of Satan, as we see in Gen.3. Also, since man’s soul & spirit are immaterial, I would not apply the efer/apher aspect on them either. Bottom line: the verse is applied to an immaterial cherub who has some material-related judgment to his form. Odd, until you find out in the Rev that the serpent of old = Satan.

      4ever means 4ever?: Whether modern or ancient, I believe “perpetual” can be understood as an acceptable trans regarding olam, but I do not disagree that it can also mean a long time. Have to take it verse by verse. Also, Rev.14:11 uses the Greek aeon, which also conveys “perpetual”. Not buying your bread here. You wouldn’t wat to tell your friends, “Hey, even if you don’t accept Messiah as your Lord & Savior, it will only hurt for a minute!” Can’t accept this. Let’s keep the fences up so the children with straying tendencies will be safer.

    • patrick


      Christians have restored to them what Adam had before the fall, an immaterial soul bucket: If this theory is correct, & the Ecclesia has already received back what Adam had, then why do we not appear to have received back our glory (as Adam obviously had) at the time of our good confession toward Messiah? Also, if I am truly overflowing with the HS (having no spirit of my own), then I feel somewhat disappointed based on the lack of power & dominion I have on earth right now – some things which Adam also had prior to falling. You must give an account to this, & concede that we “aren’t all that” yet. To ME, the resurrection of the saints will be the time to show BOTH of these attributes, since that is when they will be fully bestowed. This is the difference between mercy drops (now, before the latter rain) and showers of blessings (then, when the HS is poured out upon our dead corpses). Yeshua came to die on our behalf AND to show us the way to live our lives. Our current attempts to model Messiah (in this body of death) are often pathetic at best. Why is the HS so comparatively diminished in our lives from , say, a Paul? But, IN THAT DAY we will be dead to sin (like Adam was), FILLED with the HS (unlike today – yes, we currently have a connection w/ the HS, having been sealed as a guarantee, but this is primarily for our sanctification), & unencumbered w/ worldly responsibilities concerning families & estates. In that day it will be confirmed whether we use our Spirit-power for our own selves, or for others; we will cure the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead. I see none of these things evident in my life now. Please explain your views on these things.

      Martyrs: Come on bro, haven’t you read the Rev? It says specifically who the martyrs are! Rev.6:9, Rev.6:10. Rev.6:11, Rev.17:6 !!!!!!!!!!! You have to ABANDON that witness stuff. My 4th century view is the same as the 1st century view based on what I read – What do the sited vss say? How could…

    • patrick

      … it be any clearer for you? What will happen when you finally accept that fact??

      Golden bowl = head, silver cord = hair, grinders = teeth, mighty men = shoulders, foundations = legs, singers = voice, etc… – all refs to old age, not death.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick , in your system soul death is an anomaly. #220 you said soul death is NOT like body death. Dead souls can think, have limited emotion, take minor actions. It is a paradoxical system.

      My theory is straight forward +seems to me more logically consistent. Before Xp everyone died (none had life), because He is firstborn from the dead. AD only those who receive the gift have life. There is no life (of any sort, definition or caliper) without Xp.

      Seems to me that you and most Christians are living with an internal contradiction. I don’t understand how to define death as anything other than ontologically dead. Grammatical semantics and acceptation of vocabulary prohibit anything else. (See posts 57-60 for a refresher about this.) Fundamentally, I think perhaps the issue is that you are stuck on the immortality of the soul. Soul death, spirit death must mean something else besides what we understand as dead (incapable of response to stimuli and no internal function), because you have been taught that souls are immortal.

      Welcome to the world of Conditional Immortality, where only God is immortal (1Tim 6:16). Humans have inherited death from Adam our father. However, we can be adopted into the family of God and receive His inheritance of Life. Afterlife and Eternal life are a gift which the wicked do not receive.

    • patrick


      1Cor 10:3-4 Israel received MIRACULOUS food and drink: The word (pneumatikos) does not mean miraculous, but spiritual. You also did not address the other 2 vss (Rom.7:14, Rom.15:27) in relation to why God would give Israel “spiritual things” if they were spiritually dead? The OT is full of meditations by men filled with the Spirit, and are you saying all this was lost on everyone until Messiah came? How could Noah, Abram, Moses, Samuel, etc.. be considered righteous without a spiritual aspect to their lives? Are virtue, humility, mercy, sacrifice, LOVE spiritual traits, or just attributes all people are completely bereft of until they come to Messiah? If Adam’s ruach died (which word you always attempt to render as “breath”), then why did he continue breathing for 900+years? Are you treating the word consistently? Heb.12:22&23 – whose spirit is being made perfect here??

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, #229 yes, there is likely a future body resurrection element embedded in John 3:3. Much NT theology has an “already-not yet” tension. My point was for the contemporary spirit birth here and now upon salvation. This is the point that you had been denying. An actual birth of the spirit NOW. As I understand your position you think everybody already has a spirit, in which case nothing is actually born now. My point is that the spirit birth is ontological, in which case there had not been a pre-existing spirit. But that certainly doesn’t deny a future fulfillment also. I have no objections to your thoughts, bodily resurrection is key and fundamental to eternal life.

      #237 you said”spirit is related to our survival instinct. Spirit strives to keep our BODIES alive, reacting to perceived threats.”
      So animals have a spirit? Beyond just breath, you think animals have a metaphysical self inner-cat?
      This have ramifications for salvation of animals and their presence in heaven or hell. Please explain.

      You said in ref to #218that 1John 3:9 is about the body res when we no longer sin. I’m ok with that. Good observation.

      #239You seem to have 2 functions of spirit in your system 1) it controls breath and animate the body ( Believers, non-belv, and animals ALL have a good operable spirit) 2) it has a metaphysical spiritual dimension of communion with God (only believers have an operable system, non-belv have a living but blinded one and ?animals). Is that correct?
      For me spirit is only that metaphysical stuff. I think your mixing in functions of soul and body.

      have a great weekend filled with Yeshua.

    • patrick


      Num 16:22; 27:16; Prov 16:2 … use the plural ‘spirits’: Ezr.1:3-5 states that God moved the spirits of men to go & rebuild Him a post-Exile house, or contribute money to the cause. Did He make them asthmatic until they departed/contribed? There are 2 many refed OT breathing disorders by your view – what’s the sig? It also seems odd that God should foreordain the mere word for natural breath (ruach) be equated to His HS! Standing back & looking at this (in my opinion) should cause us to say, “Well, either there is a direct connect between a man’s metaphys spirit & his breath, or God is repeatedly confusing understanding on the issue.” Life isn’t natural. No, it’s supernat. Do we agree that life doesn’t come by nat processes? If supernat, then by God, who is Spirit. Adam was animated into life that came from God’s breath. No doubt the HS, BUT after Adam rebelled, he didn’t cease to breath until 900+ yrs later! He lost his glory/eyes were opened right away, but he still understood GOOD. No HS, no breath, no good? No! Something endured a while longer. Man’s ruach made it possible for man to remain a living soul. &, even today, animation ceases when the breath departs. Coincidence? No. Any man’s spirit (little s) is a supernat force, that causes him to have locomotion so that his soul can comprehend the world, both good & evil, for as long as the supernat spirit-breath abides w/ him.

      Prov 16:2 YHWH weighs the breaths (pl). Not air from respiration, but … You are accountable for what you say … For God to weigh an immat metaphys spirit would be silly … NLT +NIV have good trans -God weighs the motives: You mean you have a trans that removes the God-inspired word & replaces it w/ 1 that matches your desired meaning. Only folks w/ itching ears would alter God’s words. You are only following man’s interp, not God’s words. Who is the One who has it all figured out correctly?

    • patrick


      #221 Heb 12:23 … assembly of the firstbornS is plural: Ok, it’s plural and there’s an assembly, as you say. I agree. But the passage reads, “But you have come to Mt Zion & to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly & church of the firstborn(s) who are REGISTERED in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, …” The first group that “you have come to” is a company of angels – multiple spirits; the second group listed is the church of the firstborns who are “registered” (written in a public record – Book of Life? – not currently staying) in heaven. Hmmm. I wonder where they are now? For you see, nothing is being said of souls, as you say. What souls are referenced here? None. Where are they?? Why aren’t they there? Currently, this appears to be a 100% spirit place. Paraphrasing, the passage MIGHT be better understood to say, ” But you have come to … the heavenly J, where there are currently abiding angels (spirits), to the place where the souls of the church are registered in the Book of Life, to the place where God the Judge (Spirit) of all currently is, to the place where the spirits of the righteous who have been made perfect through the HS now reside, …” The term “the spirits of just men” is “the spirits of (Gk) dikaios (the righteous)”. So I will ask you again: Whose spirits have been made perfect (COMPLETE – like through a union w/ the HS)? It certainly cannot be angels, because God does not take hold of such. That leaves men, or animals (which would just be very strange to apply, given the context of the chapter). “YOU have come …” Who has come? The context indicates those who are accounted sons of God, & they have come to hear Yeshua, the Mediator of the New Covenant (vs.24) …

    • patrick

      … But then you state: “God’s plan of redemption of these many HUMAN SPIRITS, now found innocent through Jesus, is fulfilled and complete.” What!? Many human spirits? You?? So mens spirits were dead (which to me is oxymoronic), but have been made alive (not “made complete”, as it reads, but evidently “raised from the dead”). Personally, I do not believe spirits can die, they merely leave the body/soul & return to God. But let’s pursue that. Where do the dead spirits of men reside while souls are still in the body? How is a spirit raised from the dead if it has always been dead? You couldn’t exactly call it being revived, resurrected, redeemed, because these all imply prior life. If it has never been alive until the Spirit comes, then what is the connection between the HS and a man’s spirit who has received Him? Is the HS like the stork that brings a baby spirit to man? Is it born again, or just being born for the first time? Such a man must enter into NEW life, not the ONLY life. The Spirit comes with a bit of Himself? But then there is nothing to be made perfect (complete) – is there? It sounds like a grafting out of the HS, as opposed to a grafting. Please go over this w/ me again. I thought I understood you, but greatly doubt that now.

    • patrick


      I finally got around to you on my backlog of responses. Welcome to the discussion. I think the Scriptures have a lot to say about the spiritual realm(s), but as I believe Jay said before, from man’s perspective, it’s like trying to glimpse something through a distorted piece of glass. I would basically agree with your 3 concentric realms, assuming the outermost circle you describe is eternity. In that we are told that the High & Lofty One inhabits eternity – Isa.57:15 – yet we often see angels and hosts about Him, I IMAGINE that He is sitting on a throne in the 3rd heavenly, while His (the Father’s) mind occupies the only aperture into eternity. I have come to understand eternity as the mind of God. But the manifestation of God must be in the 3rd heaven, where there’s an innumerable company of spirits, even evil ones, such as Satan, who stand before the Father to accuse the saints, as refed in Job 1 and Rev.12:10. Eternity is, and always will be, Sovereign ground, where God has absolute control; the 3rd heavenly is like a neutral zone that God enforces control over, and the universe is a territory occupied where open warfare is raging. Actually, I take the earth & sky as the 1st heaven, our solar system & beyond as the 2nd, the 3rd is beyond that, and eternity is not a heaven at all. Inside the 1st is another inner realm, broken into sub-compartments, designated for captives (living angels/dead souls). All within (even Christians) will continue to be detained until the last days.

      The mansions you speak of, to me, are New J dwellings Christians will receive when Messiah returns to receive us to Himself, not when we die. “When you die you go to heaven” is never stated explicitly in Scriptures, which, if it were true, would be a huge oversight in my opinion. Special terminologies are always applied to post-death Christian destinations, which need careful consideration.

    • patrick


      Patrick, I feel that you have taken 1Pet 4:6 out of context … a speed read of the entire book: I will try and do so tonight and let you know.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, thanks for the personal background info, It is always good to understand with whom we are visiting. Many of my personal details are on my website, about me page. Click my hyperlinked name in this post. #244 Quench- back on my #216, I said that a debt is NOT quenched. Debts for sin must be paid in full either by Jesus or by yourself. Quench means to prematurely put out. Debts are exacted, never quenched. I believe that God is fair for the penalty for sin. A 75yr life does not incur infinite debt. It is some finite amount. You should read my book.

      Israel as a nation will always be God’s people corporately, but individual Israelites live or die based on their own righteousness (imputed by Xp). Thus the anger ceasing quotes are valid. Many Israelites will be destroyed (Heb 3:17).

      Hypothetically, to play along, per #245: pride is always a bad thing. We are created from dust and stand before the eternal majesty of omnipotence. Pridefully considering yourself anything bigger than a spec of ash is presumptuous in His presence.

      #246- I think we agree on the born again thing. We are born again NOW, but perfectly/completely re-born again at the BODY resurrection.
      Which brings us back to my original observation: If we are born again now, what aspect is born? To be born means to come forth into existence. My point is that the spirit is ontologically born.
      Agreed on Shirley McLain and a piece of God. I withdraw that comment and thought from #218. The spirit aspect of man’s tripartite nature is man’s spirit. Although it is without sin and perfect. Only believers have a spirit, unsaved are totally without spiritual understanding.

      In #256 to Gary, you spoke of Satan currently be in heaven accusing the saints. I don’t think so. Try this and comment (you too Gary)

    • patrick


      1Pet 4:6 out of context: I read 1Pet. In terms of your ref to me believing the verse is in ref to pre-Flood nephalim, I never meant to imply that. My post #221 states “spirits of antediluvians”. Upon thinking on that, I suppose you could include the neph in that class of people, so sorry for the confusion. I take antediluvian to mean pure-bred men, not nephs. In that light I do not believe I am out of context w/ the vs. You said so many good things in your post, so let me comment. 1Pet. is about suffering, but I might add it is more rightly about showing how confirmation of salvation (both to the Christian himself & to the world observing him) is best demonstrated through patient sufferings for Christ. Multiple examples are given. In that you know we are called to suffer for Him I greatly rejoice! 1Pet. is about suffering while we await His return. Yes! As a matter of fact this book takes you into the res of the dead. We will see Him come, and suffer for His sake until He comes, being dead to sin & having all His 1st Advent powers – Joh.14:12. Every person will be judged. Yes! And, to defend my contextual interp of 1P4:6, that includes the antediluvians (no nephs). They had received no law from God – Rom.5:12-14, Rom.5:20. The anted’s had to have sin defined so that they would be brought under condemnation. The anted’s also needed the gospel proclaimed, so that they would have a chance to escape the judgment. These guys may be bad, but no law, no condemnation. The res will be their judgment. Can they walk in the Spirit? Our judgment is the res. I’ve never met anyone who understood that. What works you do will determine which camp you find your way into (C’s or AC’s). When Yeshua returns there will be no question – you will either have a mark, or you won’t. I do not follow your Acts 10:42 parallel – the 2 phrases refed are not the same, although I don’t nec. disagree with your interp of what Peter meant.

    • Jay Altieri

      You know it is getting hard to find our old posts for reference of what we are debating. So I’ll try to include post # for easy crosschecking.
      Remember back in #113 we thought that we were getting toward the close of this topic. What a joke!

      Heb 12:23 (#231+254). I’m ok with registration in BookofLife. Thanks. You are using this verse to say that spirits return to God in heaven, but souls await the resurrection. By your theory even spirits of wicked return to God in heaven. But they don’t get registered? Where are the wicked spirits? Don’t they have a large assembly too? How come only spirits of just men are here?
      Then you said spirits “not currently staying”, I thought your idea was that ALL spirits go to heaven?
      You correctly note that Heb 12:23 doesn’t mention souls in heaven, but Rev 6:9 does have souls in heaven. I know that you think it is only those who gave their life for testimony of Jesus, so only a few limited first class souls currently make the cut. 2nd class souls must wait?
      However, as you point out “the spirits of (Gk) dikaios” is ALL redeemed by Xp. Not just martyrs (4th C definition- the Greek word means witnesses). So are only martyrs =righteous? We’re not righteous too?

      I don’t think God plays favorites. Our FAITH gets us into heaven, not our actions or which century we were born into. My point is that ALL spirits (and souls although not mentioned in this verse) of believers are in heaven before the resurrection. Unbelievers don’t have a spirit, so their soul(mind) is in the grave awaiting judgment.

      You ask if our spirit(small s) is a new creation and without sin, then how is it being made perfect in Heb 12:23? Does that imply that it was previously imperfect?
      I don’t see a problem with the new creation being perfect to start with and being called made perfect. That is how it was made.
      Heb 10:14 we are prefect NOW, even before the resurrection our righteousness as imputed by Xp is complete.

    • Jay Altieri

      #255 Perhaps we still have a misunderstanding about new birth. I thought I was clear, but apparently not so. Sorry for bungling the words. Adam’s spirit died. No man ever since had an individual spirit at birth(save Jesus). Upon Good Confession (GC), we are given a divine gift of new spirit. I’ve never said that the spirit is re-born, for it is the first time that particular human spirit ever existed. It is a New Creation per Paul. Jesus calls it a new birth. Peter calls it born again. Not that the spirit is born a 2nd time, but that the person is born a 2nd time.

      You asked “Where do the dead spirits of men reside while souls are still in the body?” Spirit don’t exist for unbeliever, so they don’t “reside”anywhere. For the believer, they reside in the heavenly realm and inside your body, cohabiting with the HS.

      “How is a spirit raised from the dead if it has always been dead?” Correct, it is a new creation(Gal. 6:15, 2 Cor 5:17), something brought into existence (Rom 4:17). It is made alive (quickened) by the HS (Eph 2:1).
      Dead does not necessarily mean raised up. Stone idols are dead, but they never had life.
      You could (and I sometimes do) speak of the GConfess as a metaphorical resurrection from the dead of mankind’s spirit. Corporately, but not individually.

      You are correct that my 231 could have been worded better. The spirit is a gift. It is a new creation in the image of God’s HS, both of which are given to us as an token of our inheritance. It is born afresh for that individual, but reborn for mankind. It was perfect (without fault) when it was created. The plan of redemption is complete since Jesus has sat down Heb 10:12. Project complete.

      152/176 Going way back: Please explain mabool as a “spirit catcher.”

    • patrick


      A refute to … dead people … evangelized post mortem: Rom.4:15 & Rom.5:13 require that the anted’s be under some form of law, or they can’t be charged w/ sins, & therefore would escape God’s final judgment. How do you handle that if they never received law? Only Adam trespassed God’s law pre-Mabool. The anted’s are, I admit, unusual when it comes to treatment, but God pre-judged them based on laws that had not been fore-delivered to them. Unusual. That’s why their souls were in Sheol somehow still retaining their spirits. That’s about as detailed as the Scriptures get about it. I won’t consider doctored translations that replace/add/paraphrase. These change what is clearly written into another message, because men think God can’t choose His words very well. That’s a big deal, & should raise no small amount of trepidation for those who follow such lines. “What God meant to say was…” Whoa!

      To say the vs means there were living men who got saved, but later died, is entirely out of the context of the verse. Why would the statement be appropriate at that point? Peter here is stating that even though the anted’s (no law/understood no gospel) won’t escape the final judgment, even they still have hope. We ALL die as wicked sinners because that’s our wages. Duh! Messiah’s work redeems from death. How will He redeem the anted’s based on their situation of no law/gospel? Peter addresses this quite nicely. They retained their spirits in Sheol. Unusual, but necessary. It may seem nice & fuzzy to believe Peter was offering his readers some comfort over Christians who were already dead, & people who were wondering where Yeshua was, but look what that vs is sandwiched between: The Gentiles will be judged for their lusts (before), but you guys be serious, watchful, prayerful lovers (after). God’s love will cover the sins of even a great multitude of (antediluvian) Gentiles.

    • patrick


      My extremely condensed, somewhat lacking on side comments, but directly to the point, version of 1Pet.3:18-4:8
      ” Messiah suffered for sins that He might bring us to God. Being made alive by the Spirit, He also went & preached to the spirits in prison, who were once formerly disobedient , when Divine suffering waited while the ark was prepared. Since Messiah suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves! For he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. Live for the will of God! The will of the Gentiles: lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, abominable idolatries. They will give an account to Him who’s ready to judge the living & the dead. This is ALSO why the gospel was preached to those who are dead: that they might be judged like all men in the flesh, but live in the spirit! The end is at hand. Be serious & watchful in prayers, and above all, have fervent love for one another – for love will cover a multitude’s sins.

    • Jay Altieri

      #253 Ezra 1:5 God stirred the spirit of people. For background,see my #199. God stirs their breath, meaning thoughts. In OT I see a lot of overlap between nephesh and rauch. These emotions come from the soul.
      Lots of stirring of rauch in OT: 1Chron 5:26 Pul of Assyria; 2Chron 21:16 Philistines; 2Chron 36:22 Cyrus; Ezra 1:1 Cyrus; Jer 51:11 Medes; Hag 1:14 Zerub.

      I see these verses as idiomatic for “got him worked up”, not literally about his metaphysical inner spiritman. That notion does not exist in OT, you are putting words into mouth of prophet. It is not what he meant. 2Pet 1:20 says Scripture means what it was originally intended to mean. You must get inside the head of author to know what he meant. You must wear his shoes to walk his path. This hermeneutic is called “historical-grammatical“approach and is readily accepted by all conservative scholars. What you are doing is called “reader response” approach. That hermeneutic claims that OT prophets wrote in code language that nobody of his own day understood. It was written for ME. 2500years later, it is all about ME. I understand it because of my 20-20 hindsight. RR is a bad approach, very self serving. HG attempts to understand the history and culture of the period in order to get a feel of what had been intended.
      The Iron age Israelites did not think about metaphysical spirits, thus those verses are likely idiomatic for God perking their interest in something.

      256- “captives (living angels/dead souls). All within (even Christians) will continue to be detained until the last days.”
      I’m still having a problem with this theology. Even after the resurrection of Jesus, our older brother (Heb 2:11), and our betrothed bridegroom (2Cor 11:2), you claim that Christians are still captive to death.
      Regardless of our status as hyper-conquerors (Rom 8:37), we are detained until the finale?

      Shabbat Shalom for a great weekend.

    • Jay Altieri

      Ezra 1:1 and genre of verse about stirred up spirit. If spirit in your paradigm means supernat force of animation, Why would God arouse the life force of Cyrus? What does mean? Was Cyrus nearing death before he was awakened in the spirit? Was his life force slumbering? It doesn’t even make any sense. My interpretation allowing for idiomatic figurative speech at least makes sense. Please explain what it means for a spirit to be aroused. Consult your lexicon, the word “stirred” means awaken from sleep. Was the literal metaphysical spirit literally asleep?

    • Jay Altieri

      #251 Rom 15:27 – Your Q:”why God would give Israel spiritual things if they were spiritually dead?” A: Not ALL of Israel was spiritually dead. God always keeps a remnant. Perhaps we are talking past each other about Israel’s identity. I reject the Dispy idea of Isr= an ethnic group of Hebrews. Israel=God’s people. Followers with faith (not DNA) are children of Abraham. Jesus’ family are those who harken to God (Mat 12:50). You +I are grafted into Israel as adopted sons. Adopted sons have all the same rights as natural born sons. Thus WE ARE Israel. Furthermore, God cuts off rebellious branches. They are piled up to be burned and destroyed. Thus many Hebrews that call themselves Israelites are liars (Rev 3:9), they are not really Israelites because they deny Yeshua. This is important for many various topics of thought. Dispensationalism affects all of us in USA. Try this link, comments always welcome: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/church%20israel.htm Since that is an indepth study, I recommend printing the PDF+reading at home on the couch.

      So back to Rom 15:27. The Jewish church was a CHRISTIAN church. Of course they were spiritually alive. Paul was not bringing an offering to the Sanhedrin, it was to James’ assembly.

      246- My stab at what Gal 4:19 really means: We are constantly growing in Christ. The Galatians were saved, as such they had HS in their heart. But they had problems (legalism, Judaic exclusivity) that was stifling their maturation. Paul was himself feeling great anguish (similar to labor pains) as the Galatians fought internal disputes. I do not think this passage is relevant to NewBirth or resurrection discussion. It does exemplify that none of us have arrived. We are still a work in progress of growing Christlikeness within us.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, 248-“if Ecclesia has already received back what Adam had, then why do we not appear to have received back our glory?” This is an excellent question. I think it is related to the Already-Not yet tension seen so frequently in the NT. Why does Paul say that we are more than conquerors, yet we still struggle every day? Why does 1John 5:4 say that our faith is victorious, yet we are still persecuted and troubled? Why has God delayed for 2000yrs for bringing back Jesus? Why are we not resurrected already?
      Rom 8:37 reminds me of the old hymn “Conquerors and overcomers now are we.” Yes we are overcomers today, yes we have a living spirit seated with Xp in the heavenlies now (Eph 2:6), but we won’t fully be completed until the resurrection at the Parousia.

      I have a modest Charismatic bent, so the way I see this dichotomy is like this: we currently have enormous power in the spirit (small s) through the Spirit (big S). I believe it is possible today for great miracles, and they still happen (but not so much in the jaded, wealthy West). Believers will heal the sick, raise the dead (Mat 10:8); and do greater miracles than Jesus himself ever performed (John 14:12). Wow, that is serious stuff. Today, especially in rich nations, the power available to us in the spirit realm is untapped. Ashamedly, I have never raised anyone from the dead though the power of the gospel. But I know missionaries in Africa who have. I think frequency of miracles have an inverse relationship to material prosperity.

      These miracles are possible because we have a spiritman within the heavenly realm. However the rent/break/tear between spirit realm and material realm is still there. That will finally be healed when NHNE comes. We currently are VICTORIOUS in the spirit realm, but we wait eagerly for the resurrection to have victory over physical. Thus I see a dichotomy between the classic Already-NotYet tension.

    • Jay Altieri

      223/251 Spiritual=Miraculous in 1Cor 10:3-4 Israel got manna from clouds and water from a rock. Manna +water were physical, real life food/beverage service. They were from a spiritual supernatural source, thus they were miracles. Paul is using a linguistic tool called synecdoche. Since you don’t believe in figures of speech, I guess you may have a problem with this. Within a literalist context, how do you interpret this verse? Was Isr’s spirit eating invisible food? What was your original point in bringing it up?

      Here is an interesting verse: Job 34:14-15 I think we agree about the meaning for the dead physically. They cease to exist (Job 14:10). They are forsaken by God (Ps 88:5). Forsake means not remembered, forgotten, having no contact. When God forsakes them, He removes his HS. When he removes HS, the dead return to dust. Because existence is only possible with God’s presence.

      I consider this divine forsaking holistically and completely. God forsakes the WHOLE man (body/soul/spirit), not just the body. So in my paradigm soul+spirit also suffer the wages of sin. The Good News is that after Jesus there is now a cure for this problem. As I understand your theory-God forsakes body of everybody and soul of post Deleuvians, but He receives the personal spirit of everybody back . So that the man isn’t entirely forsaken, only 2/3s. While AnteD’s were only 1/3 forsaken. Correct?

      As well as the intermediate condition, Job 34:14-15 has relevance for the final eternal condition. What is good for the goose…gander too. Sinners after GWTJ cast into LoF are FORSAKEN by God. He forgets(Prov 10:7) and blots out the name of the wicked (Deut 29:20).
      Forgotten and forsaken means that the HS does not abide with, does not fellowship with, with not associate with any sinner in Gehenna.
      HS is withdrawn from Gehenna. What happens when HS is withdrawn? Everyone in LoF returns to dust.
      Do you agree that HS will ultimately forsake wicked in LoF?

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, 259/262 Rom 5:13 you said”AnteD’s had to have sin defined so that they would be brought under condemnation.” Retroactively?
      If there is no law about eating bananas on Wed, And I eat 3bananas every Wed, Then 2000yrs later somebody tells me Oh, BTW, we have a rule now that you may not eat bananas on Wed, And we’re going to judge and hold you accountable for those retroactive sins.

      Is that fair? I think AnteD’s will be judged based on the light that they had been given during their lifetime. Even nature itself gives some guidance Rom 1:19-20. Conscience gives some guidance Rom 2:15. The HS whispers to everybody. So yes they will be judged, but you and I will be accountable to much more stringent measures, because to whom much is given…

      Why do AnteD’s get a second chance? How about Australian aborigines before Capt Cook landed in 1700s? How about Vikings in Iceland before Irish monks came in 900ad? How about Romans in 50ad before visited by early saints? How about Egyptians in 200BC? Or Moabites in 1300BC? How about people today that are just too busy too seriously sit down and listen?

      All humans only have this 1 life to respond to God. But the exact same sinful act performed by different people under different circumstances will receive different punishment based on their opportunity to respond. Consider: Prov 24:12; Heb 10:28-29; 2Pet 2:20-21; Mat 11:22-24; Luke 12:47-48; John 19:11.
      Christ’s comment to Pilate verifies that there exist weighted penalties based on personal knowledge. The Jewish leaders that condemned Him had the Torah+prophets at their fingertips. They should have known better. Thus they will be held to a stronger judgment.

      Also look at James 3:1. Point being that AnteD’s are not judged based on OUR knowledge and do not require continuing education classes. They are not retroactively condemned. They are justly judged based on what they had to work with. God knows.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, hope you are well. Sorry if I’m getting ahead of you. Fate of the Unevangelized is probably an entirely different string. To say that God kept spirit+soul together in conscious prison for anteDs, but not for AmerIndians, appears contradictory. Your rule is the point at which God gave a law (Noahide law: be fruitful+no murder Gen 9),
      But what good is a law if people don’t hear it? The law must be advertised so that it is available to people in order to hold those people accountable. If Moses makes a Law in Sinai, people living in China at that time are not bound by Moses’ law.

      I believe that All humans are exclusively responsible for their own behavior during life, because God gave a law in the beginning (Even before AnteD’s) that has been proclaimed loudly every day in all countries of the world. Eg: Sunrise, Sunset, Green trees, furry animals, night stars, etc. Rom 1:20 says ever since creation. AnteD’s are responsible for the nature of divinity as seen in creation. This is a small light compared to Scriptures that we have. Thus they will be judged based on what they had been given, not what we have been given.

      All humans have received some light from God. God only judges based on inform that they had. Thus some people will be judged and condemned more severely. However the ONLY forum for obedience and repentance toward God is this life. There is no reincarnation or 2nd chance.

    • patrick


      1Pet 3:18-19 … spirits=demons, not human: If true, then Pete is taking a detour from the context, per my last post. Where does it say ds are in Sheol? In the gos, Messiah’s light shows them plentifully pres on earth’s surface, awaiting a predetermined torment, evidently per Rev.18:2. If ds, then why are they punished early? No more ds on earth’s surface/all in Sheol? How do we learn their doctrines, & what about the post-ascen ds in Acts?

      Christ goes to “spirits in prison” AFTER he is quickened: Good point, & it does appear to be an ok conclus from the vs, but isn’t nec so, because I know of no other Scriptures that suppt such a seq, BUT the maj of evidence suppts those 3ds/3ns. The emph is placed on the Jonah acct by Yeshua. The OT portrayal of resting souls also matches this precisely, which you do not attach any signif to. According to this OT view of the immediacy of Sheol for departed souls, this makes a post-res return trip by Messiah unlikely. He was there, left, & went back. This issue also seems to be related to your later stmnt: ” dead people can’t DO anything “. You quote vss that suppt this, but you dismiss all vss that say otherwise. I take all the vss & harmonize. I believe the maj of vss you favor may simply be saying, “the dead are out of touch w/ the living.” Messiah (the Truth) stated that, like Jonah, He would be in the earth’s belly 3ds/3ns. If, unlike your theory, souls can functn somewhat in the earth’s bowels, which IS suppted by Scriptures, then the difficulty disappears. You run across the grain of the Scriptures on several sep subjs. Also, if Messiah’s ref to Jonah was intended to mean His soul was in a cave for 3ds/3ns, He wouldn’t have said it the way He did. Your view gens 2 much confus on 2 many topics that are otherwise clear. This is not my exp w/ the Scriptures/the way God speaks. God is very clear about things. The real diffs come w/ our own ig about spirit realms. We’re looking thru coke-bottles.

    • patrick

      … The portrait of Jonah is also an antetype for the res. In his “former life” J believed, but ran from God’s will. In death (while underwater) J went down to the mntn moorings. Altho J couldn’t see, he still knew God wouldn’t forget him. Spit up on the earth’s SURFACE after 3ds/3ns (the res),& despite suffering due to his new red-tinted body (Adam=ruddy), he went & preached to Gentiles. The Gents saw/heard this suffering red man & repented. God provided all his needs. J wanted God to judge the city for all his people’s shed blood, but God was merciful.

      1Pet 3:19 = 2Pet 2:4: The burden is on you to prove ds = fas. We are given plenty of info to know better. 2P2:4 are the fas from Gen6 – they departed from their appointed habs & went after strange flesh (women). Perfect descripts. “Cutoff from the temporal world” – this is a good obsrvatn, & goes w/ what I said earlier about interpreting your pet vss (that dead souls are out of touch).

      What was Jesus proclaiming?: The law to anted’s. 2P2:4 – Pete is talking about fas. The way I see it is that procreation was the issue w/ the angels. Man had it – they wanted it. A few got it on earth w/ women, nephs being the result. Most got it w/ idols they made that came to life, like in the Rev (“image” being a collective noun – many images). These may be 1 class of ds. “Angel babies” from images that were later destroyed. Spirits looking for images to possess. Study the collection of Heb words for “sin” – all the word meanings tell a story. An angel’s ability to proc may come from Myst Bab (“I will not know loss of children, or widowhood”). The false “qn of hvn” in the prophs speaks the same. She’s every false goddess worshipped: goddess of fecundity. Sorceress, lust personified, seductress, market city, false relig, etc.. A prin of drkns. The spirit of materialism in all its forms. She’s a princess (Venus), as well as today’s super-action fighting babe (Ishtar).

    • patrick


      Abaddon … is synon with sheol: I disagree Ab=Destruction=Corruption, not sheol. Not in Sheol? He’s in the Bottomless Pit, which is a subcmprtmnt of Sheol. He is a fallen angel. He is the angel of the BP.

      Disagree that modern political nation of Israel is protected by angels: Not angels, but angel – Mishael according to Dan.12 – read it.

      Mish is top-dog angel w/ myriads under him. God keeps perpetual watch on His land. Messiah’s seat will be there in the mil kngdm. Satan wants the land back to break the prophesied return of the Jews, but God will continue to protect. Wake up! So many latter day vss that focus directly on the place. Satan would rather see it nuked from the map – but for God’s will. The NJ will come down there – our future home, sweet home. You don’t think He’s watching over it? The Eklesia is PART of Israel, but not replacement. They meet Messiah near the end – some are true Israelites/some are not.

      Naamah … got a boat ride: That would be the idea, which is supported by Gen.6:4 in terms of the presence of giants after the Mabool. This is one possibility, and I can’t prove anything here – speculation only. God wiped out the purest lines of the neph under this theory. Yes, Mabool was a judgment on men. Man’s fault, he was wicked only continually, yada, yada, yada. No argument there. A lot like today (w/ no giants – yet).

      Humans/angels not the same kind: See prior post on Mystery Babylon. You mean hybridization between different kinds is not possible FOR MAN TODAY. We are talking potent sorcery here my friend.

      Angels have souls? Interesting. Why are they just refed as spirits then? I agree they have all the personality traits I use under nephesh. See, here’s another weird one about the spirit realm. I’m telling you, we don’t have a good handle on it!

    • patrick


      You said, “Adam’s presence in the spirit world ceased (died).” Now that is an interesting statement! I believe I can go along with that!! That’s probably exactly correct!!! I don’t think Adam’s spirit died, but his presence definitely expired in the spirit world. I consider that your genius statement of the week! Let me think about that for a while. This could be the common ground we’ve been throwing stones at each other for! How exciting!!

      Whatever happened to Gary? I feel bad it took me so long to get back to him.

      No way we have a good handle on the physical “sphere”. We still haven’t learned much in my opinion. Afterall, we are going to destroy the earth eventually.

      The only dead saints w/ Yeshua (in heaven) are under the altar of souls – those class A murdered guys, as you like to call them. Praying to saints is not “sort” of worthless – it’s “totally” worthless. One Mediator between mand & God, bro, not a few. God is jealous about such stuff. Do you pray to dead guys?

      reanimation of the inner man within that spirit realm: See, you believe in grafting too! We have too many semantics issues.

    • patrick


      To say that God kept spirit+soul together in conscious prison for anteDs, but not for AmerIndians, appears contradictory: Does it? The AmerInds received the law through Shem. God told Noah & sons to do no homicide. Yeshua said not even to hate. This is one of the chief reasons longevity dropped right after the Mabool. If it doesn’t live 900+ years, then it has received some law from God. The Chinese got the law through Shem too. In terms of the Mosaic laws, you are correct. The Chinese aren’t under the ML until they hear it.

      All humans are exclusively respon for their own behav: Agreed. But, in sin my mother conceived me. I came out yelling into this world, not at peace.

      God gave a law in the beginning (before AnteD’s): Which was? Rom.1:20 is saying that every man knows a Creator exists, but some try to suppress this fact, which is excusable. What a man reckons his Creator expects from him is not covered under Rom.1. Some might view a storm, fire, flood, etc.. &conclude He is a God of wrath, & respond accordingly. Some might see furry animals & expect that He is cuddly. God overlooked this up until the Appian Way missionary (Acts 17:30-32).

      There is no reincarn or 2nd chance: On the contrary, I would say there is a reincarn for believers, called the res. It puts the Spirit back in a man who is DEAD to sin – just like pre-fall Adam! The only diffs are that 1) the res’ed man will KNOW good from evil (the main reason for this present age), & 2) he will be thrown into great trib, which will serve as his judgment. Knowing good from evil, & being born into new life that gives him the chance to FINALLY wage a decent fight, WHICH WILL HE CHOOSE – the GOOD, OR the EVIL? Messiah won’t be dying a second time for him, should he freely decide to defect from the faith like Adam did. That’s why martyrs go the heaven, while others remain in Sheol. The “class As” have already been judged – & they passed! No need of further testing.

    • Jay Altieri

      247- Pretty much agree on use of rahab/levithn/tananeen/neckesh/dragon.I have no problem with a literal neckesh having been created as big snake dragon animal that was hijacked by Satan. Later that specie died out. However memories of it lingered in myth about dragons in China+all around world. Perhaps that animal was Leviathan of Job 41:19-20 it breathed fire. Dragon? Thus animal that was used to deceive Eve was (maybe) same dragon animal spoken of by LORD from the whirlwind unto Job. You should be proud of my literalism here. I’m ok with that. However these are probably not dinosaurs, those fossils are much older. It is possibly a modern dragon that cohabited with humans and went extinct.

      But other passages are not literal. Instead of literal 7 headed monsters, I see metaphor. Isa 51:9 +Ps89:10 use of rahab is borrowed from Ugaritic myth. She had 7heads. Ps 74:13 headS(pl). Rev 13:1 picks up with rahab in prophecy. Not a literal animal that will terrorize earth in endays, but a metaphor based on Isa 27:1 et al for a government that will terrorize believers. See my Islam in prophecy study: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/islam1.htm
      Thus when Isa 51:9+Ps 89:10 speak of God destroying rahab, this has not yet happened. It is prophetic of final battle of the eschaton between Antichristic beast +Messiah. Ainein Theon. Iesous kyrios estin!

      Job 7:12 is direct reference to Ugarit. KJV has a bad translation yam=name of Ugarit’s diety. There is no reason to lock up the ocean. That doesn’t make sense. Thus it should read “I am Yam or Tananeen, that you[God] must incarcerate me?” Most important detail here is Job has early date. Ugarit prominent 2ndMilBC Age of Patriarchs, Captivity+Exodus. Liberal scholars think Job was written during Exile, but I think much earlier, probably during captivity.

      Relevance of all this to our blog: Not all dragon references are literal. Some are metaphoric, spiritual. Opening up possibility of spirits being destroyed.

    • patrick


      If there’s no law about eating bananas on Wed … : Have you not read how Jonathan unwittingly ate honey after Saul had cursed any1 in his army who ate before evening? After Paul realized who he was addressing, did he repent of his insult aimed at the chief priest AFTER that CP had him struck unlawfully? The Mabool came w/out prior law. You can get a ticket for jaywalking, even if you don’t know it’s illegal, etc..

      The HS whispers … So they will be judged …: Then what’s the sig of Rom.5:13 & like vss?

      … you will be accntbl to more strngnt measures : I’ll never be judged based on law. I’m under grace. You know this, but may be confusing chastisement & damnation.

      Why do AnteD’s get a 2nd chance?: Every1 must 1st be brought under condemnation of law, & then hear the gospel & decide. True, or false? ALL Vikings must hear. I doubt your doctrine covers this. Is it fair? This huge heresy maintains that certain societies in time need never have heard the gospel. Wrestling w/ this will help you see my view. Do YOU believe that SOME need not hear the gospel? I believe every1 must hear – even the anteD’s. Some peoples will hear in the res. Rom.10:14-15

      Consider: Prov 24:12; Heb 10:28-29; 2Pet 2:20-21; Mat 11:22-24; Luke 12:47-48; John 19:11: These vss suppt my view. Luk.12:47-48 is worth noting: Both servant-types KNOW their Master, but 1 didn’t hear His instrctns. Beatings are not damnation, but are the conditions under which servants live. He who didn’t hear will receive fewer stripes. He is the one who will rise, having believed in his Creator, but never hearing of Messiah spcificlly. All are called to SUFFER for the Master. Those receiving more stripes will be chastised for knowing their own unfaithfulness, not for lawbreaking.

      Christ’s comment to Pilate … wghted penalties based on persnl knwldg: Messiah told P his sin was a result of others’ sins, & His suffering was despite P’s jdgmnt.

    • patrick


      in your system soul death is an anomaly: No, you are dismissing all vss that state the “anomalies” are there. “Every word of God” bro – got a problem w/ that?

      I don’t understand how to define death as anything other than ontologically: Use the Scripture’s complete def.

      you are stuck on the immortality of the soul: Guilty as charged.

      1Tim.6:16 – are angels mortal?

    • patrick


      the contemp spirit birth … is the pt that you had been denying: I already answered this 1. I believe at the time of confession the process of sanctified renewal begins, which is a new birth caused by our grafting (reconnection) w/ the HS. I have been thinking about our new common ground a bit (Adam’s presence in the spirit world ceased, or died). New analogy: At the point of confession, the “spiritual umbilical cord”, originally severed by Adam & defectively passed on to all men, is spliced back together. We don’t get the glory coat Adam had right off the bat, but we do have newborn eyes that are opening to the spirit realm. Like Paul, scales pop of our eyes? We develop, gaining strength to see more clearly (focused) aspects of the invisible realm through the provided teachings, which nourish us. Adam could see it fine, being fully developed – both spirit’ly and phys’ly, but we are starting in the phys hole – trying to climb out. The phys world retards progress due to constant bombardments of materials/needs/distractions. In the res we will be able to see the spirit realm because we will be fully clothed. The clothing is different from what we understand phys’ly. This glory provides all – our food, protection, needs, etc.. When Adam lost that, then he quickly identified his great lack – his bread from heaven was gone, the rivers of water flowing from his belly dried up, he was cold & hungry, thirsty & naked. The phys world pressed in & he ceased from the spiritual. He started to acquire for himself instead of receiving what God provided. Leaves for coverings, fruit instead of fellowship, etc.. He forgot about the spirit realm.
      I would say Adam performed a spiritual self-lobotomy (still breathing, but no recollection of spirit-side), but you seem to think Adam performed a spiritual self-beheading.

    • patrick


      A 75yr life does not incur infinite debt. It is some finite amount: “The wages of sin are death.” Would you say that’s perm, or temp? If you are preaching temp, then you are talking about purgatory, which I don’t do. If you pay your debt, you get to go free. I know you believe you will go out of existence after you pay, but that’s not the way your system should work. Once you pay, you get restored; you say that once you pay, you cease to exist. Why is that? That’s not the way it should be, if man can pay his own sin debts – is it? Not really sure why “quench” is so relevant here – seems like you are trying to introduce it to make your point.

      anger ceasing quotes are valid. Many Israelites will be destroyed: I disagree. Those who experience God’s wrath do so 4ever.

      Prideful spirits – 2 types, as I see it. The 1st is based on youth (like a kid who calls me an old geezer); the 2nd is based on materialism (every1 look what I have). I guess this could include knowledge as well, since it can puff up. Time always takes care of the 1st, and no one can take it with them concerning the 2nd. If you take your smarts, you won’t feel as smart then. I suppose spirits can pass through a challenged phase, but when they go back I think they revert to what they were when they left God. Just musings here.

      the spirit is ontologically born: see prior post analogy – does that help?

      Satan currently be in heaven accusing the saints: Rev.12:10

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, some new fodder for thought: please explain 1 Thes 4:14 within your paradigm. God brings the saints WITH Jesus when he comes. is Jesus bringing a tub full of unconscious spirits? Does this include the soul (conscious mind) only of martyrs who died for the testimony of Jesus? Or is this including all who sleep in Christ?

      What do you think happened to Enoch and Elijah? Before answering that question, read this: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/enoch_and_elijah.htm
      Comments welcome. Have to run have a good weekend.

    • patrick


      even wicked spirits return to God … Where are the wicked spirits?: There are few insights given. I still don’t think men’s spirits are wicked, but only unrepentant souls. I admit, I do not have difficulty imagining angels (spirits) in heaven, but struggle w/ the spirits of men (no soul attached) being there. I doubt angels have souls – they don’t seem highly emotional. For them to be pure spirit seems natural, but regarding man, it’s his soul that defines him. I don’t picture men’s spirits floating around & interacting w/ angels in heaven; I picture them as stones (crystals) in the NJ walls, some full of light, others not. It could be that the “wicked” spirits (your term) are sent back (recycled) into other men (at their births) until the full (predetermined) # of spirits adorn the walls w/ their light. The day of the Lord draws nearer as more of the NJ is completed, & is hastened as the Eklesia fulfills its commission. Don’t ask me to defend this, as I cannot. Mere speculation.

      “(spirits) Not currently staying”: This ref I made was to the SOULS of registered men. Sorry for the confusion.

      only a few limited 1st class souls currently make the cut (Rev.6:9). 2nd class souls must wait?: I don’t understand your repeated denial that the souls under the altar belong to men murdered for their faith! The passage is very CLEAR:

      ” When He opened the 5th seal, I saw under the altar the souls of THOSE WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN (shaphazo – butchered) for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried w/ a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge & AVENGE OUR BLOOD on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; & it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants & their brethren, WHO WOULD BE KILLED (apokteino – inflict mortal death) AS THEY WERE, was completed.”

    • patrick

      … Since these are the ONLY souls mentioned in heaven, I understand your extreme desire to make them include every dead believer, but that is simply NOT what the passage clearly states. This is an emotional issue, more than likely. I see it all the time. No one wants to believe there can be any other place for souls to rest. Even unbelievers despise Sheol, but the Scriptures are very clear. I don’t think I can go any further w/ this topic until I can get an acknowledgement from you that these are murder victims. I do not understand your prior defense of this verse. Please reconsider your argument. Please bring on your vss that support

      I don’t think God plays favorites. Our FAITH gets us into heaven, not our actions or which century we were born into: It doesn’t matter what you think, what matters is what the Scriptures say. Please provide your vss that support “when a believer dies his soul immediately goes up to heaven.”

    • patrick


      Upon Good Confession (GC), we are given a divine gift of new spirit: Ok, so, since you believe we never had a spirit before (wasn’t essential to our moving around, breathing or fleshy life), & now we do have a spirit after our GC, is this the HS, or not? Everything I read in the Scriptures seems to indicate it’s the Spirit that comes, not a spirit. I believe this would take you back to Shirley McL (everyone gets a little piece of God). You say we get both the little s & big s, but I don’t understand why it wouldn’t simply be big S required here? I believe I need the little s for animation, breath, fleshy life & for an instilled sense of separation from God (sense of something missing – anger), but you seem to need the little s only to be like a little buddy to the big S. Where did the little s manifest from? Supporting vss that specifically state we get a little & big s at our GC? Sorry if I’m making you repeat yourself. My bad! Gal.6:15, 2Cor.5:17 & Eph.2:1, which you site, don’t speak of a new little spirit. I question your use of Rom.4:17 in the context you are placing it in – it refers to Abraham’s old body being rejuvenated (as well as Sarah’s) so that Isaac (who God spoke of in the present tense BEFORE his birth) could be born.

      So re-born, new birth, born again expressions don’t create a snag for you based on the metaphorical res from the dead of mankind’s spirit? Hmmm.. But you have said in the past that man had no life until Yeshua ascended. No?

      I still think I take issue w/ “spirits of just men made perfect”. “Unjust men made perfect through spirits” would make more sense to me according to your theory.

    • patrick


      You must get inside the author’s head to know what he meant: By reading everything he said. I only need the HS to interpret.

      hist-gram approach vs. reader respns: Please provide your supporting Scriptural refs. I don’t need a man btwn me & the word, telling me what it means. It might as well be written in Latin in that case. The Scriptures are clear. Men that interpret according to the HGA were not there when the texts were written, so they’re just as apt to be wrong as right. The word is for ALL times, espec last days times. God knew what to write & how to say it for ALL times. If He can’t get that right, then who should I trust? He would cease to be my God if I couldn’t understand/believe/trust Him at His word. He has magnified His word above His name (Psa.138:2)! We need to study.

      Regardless of our status as hyper-conquerors, we are detained until the finale?: Yep, unless we’re “class A’s,” as you say. The whole body needs to be assembled in unity. The end of the age is harvest time – do you want to go into that field? Unfulfilled paradigms have to take place. The end time is the focal point. The Eklesia needs to be confirmed after receiving its res perfection. If they defect (like Adam did) then they’re spots & wrinkles. The bride makes herself ready, & the saints’ righteous deeds, are done on earth, not in heaven. Yeshua said He was going to prepare a place for us & that He would COME BACK FOR US. That’s His 2nd coming! Adam’s failure granted us knowledge of both good & evil; when we rise we will retain that knowledge. When Adam failed (being evil-ignorant), God didn’t say, “Darn! Guess I’ll try something else.” God fully intends to take us right back to Adam’s pt of defection, BUT He’ll equip us WITH knowledge of evil, AND a new body (DEAD to SIN & FILLED w/ the HS). He hasn’t changed His mind since Adam. He takes us thru trib, not around it. He’s coming at an unexpected hr.

    • patrick


      Why would God arouse the life force of Cyrus?: In the exact same sense that the Scriptures read, Cyrus was stirred up to take action for God’s people. God laid it on his heart, or He made him vigorously desire to do this thing. It is a spiritual condition that drives a man, just like when the Spirit came on an OT man. A zeal like John the Baptist had. Surely you understand what I’m saying? What God didn’t do was to make Cyrus gasp for breath.

    • Jay Altieri

      271you ask”Where does it say Ds are in Sheol?” I never said that. I think sheol is poetic way of saying grave. Nobody is in a mythological sheol. Some Ds or FAs or whatever they are (I don’t make distinctions, but am not opposed to your calibration between these evil spirits) are in Tartarus (2Pet 2:4). Pls reread #234. I agree that the vast majority of Ds+FAs are on earth and teaching men evil doctrines, only a small minority are locked up in Tartarus. Tartarus is not sheol. Tartarus is a real place within the spirit realm, possibly a chamber of LoF. LoF is not yet populated by anyone human or spirit, because it utterly destroys and turns to ash. I didn’t say anything about torment or corporal punishment. It says they are held in chains under darkness, I interpret this as solitary confinement in a tiny cell. They didn’t make bail, for whatever crime they committed. I do not believe corporal punishing may be inflicted until AFTER the last judgment. That applies to punishment of D/FAs too.

      FAs of 2 Pet 2:4 did not go after strange flesh. You are mixing up your verses. Jude 1:7 strange flesh is about homosexuals in Sodom. These are people, not D/FAs.

      So you think Abaddon is in Abyss which you consider to be a compartment of Sheol and Gen6 FAs are in Tartarus? You don’t find the similarities a little too coincidental? Where exactly is Tartarus?
      Did you say that demons are the children of FAs? This is way outside of Scriptural purview, I have no comment.

      You mention Jonah in 271-2. You said “In death while underwater.” I think we agree, except I think dead means really dead, you appear to think it means separated from the body. Try this short study: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/jonah's.htm
      You also mentioned Jonah’s ruddiness. What? Detail please.

      If D+FA can’t die and cease to exist, then sin will remain in the universe for eternity. Yet Jesus came to do away with sin of the cosmos(John 1:29)

    • Jay Altieri

      #271 Where was Jesus for those 3 days? You appear think he was conscious and alive in sheol/ab and took field trips to preach to spirits of men, who have no ears, but apparently can still hear. No soul but they still think and respond. They have no body but were still alive and functioning?
      Ironically, you don’t see any contradictions in this.

      I think Jesus suffered the consequence of sin. He experienced exactly what all people get. Death. Check any dictionary, death means the total and permanent cessation of function. He was body dead, spirit dead and soul dead. All aspects of anthropology (B-S-S)are subject to the curse. Jesus got, what we deserve= cessation of function on EVERY level. So my theory, is that Jesus was in the grave for 3 days, poetically called sheol. There is no good news to preach during those 3 days (even if he could) because w/o resurrection, it is vanity. There is no gospel hope of salvation for anteDs (even if they were alive soulfully), because w/o resurrection, NT is a liar(1Cor 15:17).

      273-Dan 12:1 Michael as guard of YOUR people Israel. Yes, but who are Daniel’s people? Rabbinic apostate Jews who blaspheme God + claim that He has no Son? Or believers in Mosiach? Read my Israel +church paper. WE are Dan’s people. Agreed that Eklesia is part of Israel, not replacement. However before Parousia it is major part. All prophecy must be faith centered not gene centered. Agreed that in end genetic Isr will come to faith. In the meantime they are cutoff. Thus Michael stands over the Church and Believing Israel(very small).

      274- agreed praying to dead people is totally worthless, I was toning down my words to be polite, not knowing where Gary landed on these things. Only guy I pray to is Jesus who once was dead. I don’t think dead saints can hear you, even if they could they are impotent to do anything about it.

    • Jay Altieri

      269/77 bananas on wed. 1Sam 14-Saul’s oath was not binding, just Saul talking big. Jonathon was not punished. Beside that wasn’t retroactive, it was eating in ignorance to his father command. You said that Jesus preached in order to bring the law to AnteDs.

      Acts 23:5 do you think Paul is apologizing? Or is he using sarcasm: A true high priest would not give such an order based on Deut 25:1-2.
      Ananias was a Roman patsy not from the line of Aaron. Paul made the same whitewashed tomb analogy toward the Pharisees in Acts 23:3 as Jesus had made in Mat 23:27. It was not sin, when Jesus said it because He was without sin. Thus it was not sin when Paul said it either. Thus Paul is not apologizing, he is using sarcasm to expose the hypocrisy of the bogus Sanhedrin court. On other occasions Paul made caustic statements with a smack of sarcasm: Gal 5:12; Phil 3:2.
      Paul certainly knew who the HP was. Paul was from a wealthy family in Asia(they were Roman citizens); he half grew up in Jerusalem; he trained at the feet of Gamaliel, a member of Sanhedrin. Thus although never a member himself, Paul would be familiar with these men. It is not that he didn’t recognize the HP, but he didn’t recognize the behavior as high priestly.

      John 18:22-23 has a very similar situation. I think Luke (author of Acts) is drawing a parallel between Jesus and Paul. Both were persecuted by ungodly wolves posing as sheep.
      My point is that no retroactive condemnation is proved in this passage.

      275/85- all unmartyred believers resurrected and put into GTrib. You mentioned this long time ago. I let it slide. Do you have a study link for that before I comment? Who teaches this? I think I disagree, but before I open my mouth I need to hear you out. Is there a name to this doctrine? Give me books, teachers or websites of this persuasion. I’ll listen.

    • Jay Altieri

      277- Jaywalking liability: interesting details from ever reliable Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat
      There are no fake excuses at the GWTJ, God knows what you knew. Human courts can’t excuse ignorance-because we don’t know for sure who is lying, but I think God DOES excuse for valid ignorance. Another words I don’t think Noahide law via Shem finds AmerIndians culpable. Likewise, anteD’s are not culpable for laws given afterwards or toward other folks. The only law that they are judged by is in creation, yet many still died because of their willful arrogance toward the Creator.

      You said:”Every1 must 1st be brought under condemnation of law, & then hear the gospel & decide.” I disagree. They already are under condemnation of whichever law they received Rom 5:18. Even under the simplest laws of creation, we screw up. The gospel is God’s willing to pardon those who seek him, but that repentance must come during this life.

      It appears that you support a second chance for all who have not had a crystal clear opportunity with the specific criteria of the gospel.
      Whereas I think it doesn’t matter what details of knowledge that you know in your head, it matters about your faith and heart condition. We are not saved by the amount of knowledge that we have. Abraham knew nothing about Jesus or Messiah, but he is father of our faith. Your position is held by scholars such as Gabriel Fackre. Whereas, I agree with John Sanders, my position is called inclusivism.

      I’ve read this and recommend:

      #280 is good question. I’ve answered this more fully here: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/purgatory%20hell.htm

    • patrick


      why God would give Israel spiritual things if they were spiritually dead?” A: Not ALL of Israel was spiritually dead: I thought you said everyone was spiritually dead prior to Messiah’s ascension? We are talking OT context in 1Cor.10, so who was spiritually alive in Moses’ day? Please explain.

      I agree that Israel = God’s people, not just an ethnic group. I also believe the doctrines regarding the ethnic group needs to be handled very carefully – even with trepidation! Here is why: The grafting of the Eklesia into a living olive tree (Messiah being the vigorous root) is important to comprehend. BUT, note also that unbelieving natural branches can be grafted back in(!) IF they cease in unbelief. The teaching says that there is a living (spiritual) olive tree that once had a full set of natural branches, but branches were cut out. Branches were then taken from a wild olive and grafted in their place. Those wild grafts are warned not to boast against the removed branches, because God is able to take the wild grafts back out again. The passage also says that those natural branches can be grafted back in if they start believing. Be very sure that you are not boasting in your “Israel” theology!

      Ok, please state who the full set of branches were in the living, spiritual, olive tree. Please also explain who in particular was grafted out of the tree, and what their current state is (dead or alive). Please state who the natural branches are, and how, being under grace, they can be grafted out again. Please also state an example of who, among the natural branches, could be grafted back in again, and why.

      many Hebrews that call themselves Israelites are liars (Rev 3:9): Don’t mix Jew and Israelite – they are not the same! A Jew may or may not be saved. Right? You aren’t claiming to be a Jew are you?

    • patrick

      Gal 4:19 – The Galatians were saved, … had HS … But they had problems … stifling their maturation. Paul was … feeling … anguish: Paul was feeling phobeo – fearful, terrified, scared enough to run away from something – Gal.4:11. Those courting the Gals wanted to exclude (ekleo – shut out) them (Gal.4:17), and Paul didn’t deny that it could happen. He had his doubts about them (Gal.4:20). No, he was terrified for them. Free will enters in (Rom.11:22, Col.1:23). We all have the right to walk away. But what do you think?

    • patrick


      the Already-Not yet tension seen … won’t fully be completed til the res … we currently have enormous power … thru the HS. I believe it’s poss 2day for … Believers (to) … raise the dead (Mat 10:8); & do grter miracles than Jesus … (John 14:12): Interesting stuff! Setting aside, for a moment, your Afr missnaries who raise the dead (as I persnly don’t know any1 who recntly raised the dead), let me suggest a diff interp: The entirety of Yeshua’s words are prophetic & speak to the res day of the body of Messiah. THEN EVERYBODY, frm least to grtest in the Eklesia will be miracle wrkers (not just a few class A’s). Paul, Pete, Jims & John, etc.. also had HS pwr. They were part of the former rain, & wrote about it. They acted like res’ed men, which means they would go to their deaths for Messiah’s sake. They all thot He was coming soon. The LITERAL former rain comes on the land of Isrl to prep the soil for planting (softened dirt tills easier/germs sown seeds readily). FIG’LY, this points to the Pentecost HS outpour that preped for planting the Church. The latter rain brings on harvest after a long, dry summer. Fig’ly this is the last days HS outpour that includes the res & the vast subseqnt conversns (inclding many res’ed Hebs!) for Messiah, brot about under HS pwr. U see, the Church is largely ineffectual 2day(!) ’cause we r merely learning to walk/talk, so only the dopes join. After a hard summer, we will all be assembled (prior to separated by time) into 1. Get that! A united body – not in heaven, but, as commanded, on earth. Yeshua’s 2nd Parous starts the res off, but we still don’t see Him (He’s up in a shek cloud like during Exo). Here’s our Shepherd, we’re His flock (get it?). The Eklesia’s least will be like David, the grtest like the Angel of the LORD. 1 will put 10k to flight. We will see Him coming on the cloud 3.5 yrs later – IF WE CNTNU IN THE FAITH! This places = emph on His teachings, not just His deeds/salv plan.

    • Jay Altieri

      Ecc 12:7 spirit returns to God. I think this simply means that life was originally a gift from God, so at body death, He takes life back. Nothing actually goes to heaven. This is figurative way of speech. But you seem to think rauch actually goes to heaven.

      Heb word for return means to come back again, to turn around and return from where you had previously been.
      Do you propose that all these spirits were originally in heaven and get doled out into bodies? Then when body dies spirit goes back into the warehouse in heaven? Did you actually say they may get re-issued to a different person? Wow, that is Eastern. Perhaps there are a limited #of spirits, +they just reincarnate over +over? Let’s work this out:

      You believe that all spirits are good. But you also believe in eternal conscious torment. So at the GWTJ, the good spirits (which have been in heaven+maybe recycled around to other people) are reunited with the body from the grave and the soul from Sheol.
      But which person to they go to if they’ve been recycled? This was the Sadducees puzzler for Jesus in Mat 22:28.

      Then the whole person BSS is tossed into LoF. Why are you punishing the good spirit?

      278- 1Tim 6:16 God exclusively has athanasia (no death). This means that intrinsic nature of God is unique. No other being in cosmos has immortality outside God. Because God alone is eternal, in primordial past only God existed. Everything was created by his word. Everything exists for his pleasure. Yes I think this includes angels too. Angels receive immortality (no death) as long as they maintain their first estate (Jude 1:6). Humans receive immortality as long as they put trust in Jesus. Outside of God’s covering wing, death will come to all.

    • Jay Altieri

      279-I’m ok with everything you said. Your Lobotomy vrs My Beheading is about correct. Consequence of sin isn’t just blindness+ lack of realization, it is death. Cessation of being, consumed, cut off, destroyed, devoured, and perish. That is the biblical language. It never speaks of death as separation.

      282- Do angels have soul. Remember ‘soul’ is translation of nephesh/psyche. We have agreed that these words mean mind, thoughts, will, emotion. Although I’m coming up short with verse using both psyche and angelos together, I do see these traits of soulishness in angels (including FAs): 2Cor 11:3 cunning; 1Pet 1:12 longing; Job 38:7 joy; Ps 148:2 praising; Luke 2:13 praising; James 2:19 fearing; Rev 12:12 wrath; Rev 12:17 anger; Luke 8:28 begging; 2 Tim 2:26 willpower. Where there is smoke there is fire. Where there exist soulish traits there must be a soul. I think angels have personality. That is the definition of soul. We have pointed out verses that animals have soul, men have soul and God has soul. Why would angels not have emotion or thoughts?

      284 correct I think the spirit element of man is exclusive for interaction within the spirit realm (2nd circle per Gary). Man’s spirit has nothing to do with breathing or life. Those are functions of nephesh/psyche (soul). Numerous OT verses using rauch are lapping over with nephesh in metaphor, seemingly ascribing one to the other. You have pointed out that this may be a weakness in my theory. Duly noted.
      Upon the GC, we have an ontological birth of spirit within spirit realm(new birth) New birth is small s spirit for the HS is eternal and cannot be ‘born.’ He always was. Additionally, separate deal, we are given gift of HS to come into us.

    • Jay Altieri

      Where exactly does HS reside inside of us? I propose in the soul (mind thoughts psyche). In Mat 4:24, Mk 5:2, Mat 15:22 and many other vss, people are said to HAVE a demon (evil spirit), or to be POSSESSED, meaning controlled. Evil possession is opposite but similar to HS possession. (Except HS doesn’t override your thoughts. He is a gentleman)
      My theory is that pre-Jesus Res nobody had a spirit, so this possession must be in the mind. If you do a thorough autopsy, you will not find spirits (Holy or evil) in the flesh, so this possession must be in the mind.

      Lk 8:30-33 Legion entered into pigs(a legion is 6000 soldiers). Animals don’t have metaphysical spirit, only the breath life. Pigs do have a mind, thoughts, fears, willpower. Pigs have soul, Ds entered the soul.
      Notice in Mk 5:8 Ds come “out of the man.” Same word as in Mk 5:2 Jesus came “out of the ship.”
      Mat 8:16 Ds are “cast out”, so they are inside, just as the HS is inside.
      Mat 12:44-45 Ds DWELL in the house.

      I think a demon in an unsaved person (still happens bunches today) is like a parasite inside their mind. I totally believe in D possession today. But the HS is more complete. Instead of a parasite inside your mind, HS FILLS believers-Acts 2:4; 4:31; 9:17 pimplemi. HS isa complete coating across your entire mind. Rom 12:2 renewed mind.

      Likewise Pharisees and unsaved people can be Filled(pimplemi) with confusion Acts 19:29; envy Acts 13:45; indignation Acts 5:17; madness Lk 5:26; wrath Lk 4:28. All these emotions come from the soul-mind. Probably these were demons of envy, madness +wrath.
      This appears to be further evidence that spirit (holy or evil) dwells in the soul/mind.

    • patrick


      1Cor 10:3-4 … how do you interpret this vs?: First, I believe in figures of speech. The passage is a small portion of a cautionary passage to the Church. Basically, it points to the res (here patterned after Exodus events). Messiah’s message about eating His flesh/drinking His blood is clearly being alluded to here. Manna – His body/water from the Rock – His blood, is being transposed back on Exodus Israel. Just as they figuratively ate & drank these spiritual provisions from Messiah, so too have we. We are warned to be sure not to offend God as they did – they are our examples of how not to act. It is very easy to glimpse the res in this passage (vs 11). We will be tested (judged – vs 5) as (all vss 1-4) Israel was tested after being baptized out of death (Red Sea crossing). Note the Rock “followed” them – an indication that when the cloud is in the rear of the camp, testing ahead is coming. Adam failed, Israel failed, the risen members of the true Eklesia will not fail because they will be operating at Adam’s original level PLUS the knowledge of the consequences of sin.

      God forsakes the WHOLE man (body/soul/spirit), not just the body: Even the body is not forsaken forever. Yeshua’s body wasn’t, & neither will ours be. God didn’t forsake the souls of the OT righteous – Psa.139:7-12. God didn’t forsake their spirits (Eccl). The AnteDs souls & spirits were not forsaken – they had a place to wait to hear. Only the flesh/souls of the wicked will be forsaken in the LoF.

      HS is withdrawn from Gehenna: Scary thought! The HS won’t be in there. The people thrown in will never have experienced the HS. So you think the HS will abide w/ the wicked in the LoF until they have paid their sin debts, & then depart from them?

    • patrick


      probably not dinosaurs, those fossils are much older: On what do you base that statement?

      Instead of literal 7 headed monsters, I see metaphor: We are qualified to take this figuratively – both from Daniel and the Rev. Odd that God repeats the figurative link.

      rahab is borrowed from Ugaritic myth: Have you read much about this? Reading recommendations?

      God destroying rahab … is prophetic of final battle … between AC beast & Messiah: Will disagree here, but don’t have anything conclusive on this yet – needs more study on my part. Refs to Rahab are past events, bur refs to Leviathan are prophetic. Seems like you are mixing the 2. On what grounds?

      Job has early date … probably during captivity: I would say more like circa Tower of Babel.

      Have a great weekend – God bless!

    • Jay Altieri

      284 “a little buddy to big S” I like that. Thanks. Youre correct that I cant cite a spcf verse that unequivocally states my thesis. There also is no such verse for Trinity, young earth, immortal soul, ecclesia confirmation after res, and most of your suppositions either. A more fair question would be to ask me for supporting documentation leading into that theory, which you have supplied for me, thanks. I think the new creation vss lend evidence that something came into being that had not been there before the GC. I take this literally that the spirit is created afresh in new birth. You take it metaphorically that your mind is refreshed. I see an ontological birth+creation, you dont.

      285 you said “I don’t need a man btwn me&word, telling me what it means.”
      Patrick my friend, that is short sighted +little bit arrogant. We stand on the shoulders of bible scholars + students who went ahead of us. We listen to our brothers&elders. We know that God speaks to them as much as He speaks directly to us, so if you only need”the HS to interpret” directly to yourself, then you will miss out on 95%of the conversation and what He said. If you seriously believe that, then why are you bothering to talk to me? God should split the skies open +reveal it directly to you, so that you know everything.
      We agree that Scripture is final authority. And that everything written about it is opinion and commentary. And that lots of commentary is flat wrong, so that we must be discerning& always prayerful. Agreed that we need to study +responsibility for our beliefs lies on ourselves. But your lack of regard for history is disconcerting.
      Hist-Gram studies the context +history of a period to understand how people think. Grammatical studies take language seriously. If God inspired the Bible, he inspired the words too. We accept PLENARY inspiration, it is FILLED UP withGod’s inbreathing. You said that you don’t care too much about verbal conjugation

    • patrick


      expln 1The.4:14 …. God brings sts WITH Jesus … is Jesus bringing … unconscious spirits? Does this include the soul (conscious mind) only of martyrs who died for the test of Jesus? Or is this including all who sleep in Christ?: The Scriptures define the following as sts: OT Israel (presumably believers), malukim (angels in the form of men, presum holy ones), and the Church. Per my view, Messiah brings His malukim, as well as the martyred souls under the altar. The spirits of the martyrs come w/ their souls. The spirits of believers never go unconscious, just as the souls under the altar remain conscious – & angry. I believe the expression “those who sleep in Yeshua” in the vs is in ref to the departed souls of Thessaly loved ones (martyred or not). Messiah’s intent is to return for the remainder of the body, whose souls are still resting in Sheol, to confirm their faith in Messiah thru testing. In terms of class B spirits, these would also be in tow, but, as I said, believers’ spirits don’t go unconscious (only souls sleep). Messiah will descend to the clouds w/ a shout/trump call, & the dead in Him (plus BC Israelites – yep!) will be raised. Class A’s receive glory-bodies that are caught up to the cloud, whereas class B’s have their spirits carried by the HS to newly assembled bodies (sinew/flesh on bones) standing on the earth, just as Eze. states.

      What… happened to Enoch & Elijah?: Enoch was trans’ed/Elijah was taken up in a vehicle. Personally, I believe Enoch = Melchizadek, but have no proof to bring to bear other than no one has ascended into heaven but the Son. Elijah would be a similar situation, but, being 1 of the 2 “sons of fresh oil,” he & Elisha are positively id’ed as the 2 Witnesses; besides their strikingly sim names, both provided “fresh oil” to widows. I’m also tempted to say Elijah = JB per Messiah (Mat.11:14), despite JB’s denial, but not sure what He meant : “willing to receive it”.

    • patrick


      Ds or FAs or whatever they are (I don’t make distinctions, but am not opposed to your calibration between these evil spirits) are in Tartarus (2Pet 2:4): But failing to make this distinction causes the 2P2:4 vs to come under scrutiny. Because I distinguish between the 2, FAs (angelos) are the only spirits in Tar. No Ds are ever refed as being in Tar, unless you count locusts in the Pit as Ds. Do you? Because if you do, THEN THEY DON”T LOOK MUCH LIKE ANGELOS, DO THEY! Regardless, locusts are not said to be in chains of darkness, but are rather locked behind a gate, & their release is not their judgment (but 2P2:4 explicitly states these bound angelos’ will only be released at the time of their judgment). No, the only detained FAs (no Ds) in Tar (aka BP, aka Abyss) that we are informed about comes from Peter/Jude (see my Jude comment below). These can only be the FAs of Gen.6 per my view. You, on the other hand, have Ds/FAs that are stuck in TAR for no known reason, it would seem, while a plethora of others are still free to run the face of the earth.

      FAs of 2P2:4 did not go after strange flesh. You are mixing up your verses. Jude 1:7 strange flesh is about homosexuals in Sodom. These are people, not D/FAs: I do not believe it is I who am mixed up. The passage is stating that, just as the men of S&G went after strange flesh, so too these FAs went after strange flesh (women in this case). Read it again:

      Jude 6&7: ” And the angels who DID NOT KEEP THEIR PROPER DOMAIN (matches Gen.6 descrip well), but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting CHAINS UNDER DARKNESS FOR THE JUDGMENT (& therefore the same angelos as 2P2:4) of the great day; AS Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them IN A SIMILAR MANNER TO THESE, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after STRANGE (Grk: heteros – another) flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. “

    • patrick

      you think Abaddon is in Abyss … a compartment of Sheol & Gen6 FAs are in Tartarus? You don’t find the similarities a little too coincidental? Where exactly is Tartarus?: Yes to Abad in Abyss. Abad is Corruption/Destruction, who is occasionally let out to run rampant on earth – particularly during the death of the 1st born in Egypt. Does not sound like everlasting chains to me. Other FAs are there because the BP is evidently the place for living spirits. Tartarus, or rather, the Abyss, is defined as a chasm of surging water (spirit-catcher). Its locale, like Sheol, would be in the depths of the earth, but just where I cannot say.

      Did you say that demons are the children of FAs?: Speculation on my part. Not the nephilim offspring of FAs, but spirits that manifested from an unholy practice likened by the Scriptures as adultery/fornication/sexual immorality/unfaithfulness to God – namely, idol worship. You see, I do not believe these handles are just arbitrary analogies, but that they carry more significance than most would believe. I believe that Mystery Babylon (the great whore) is behind all this.

      You also mentioned Jonah’s ruddiness. What?: Jon.4:6. What do you think it means? Jonah was burnt by the digestive juices of the fish.

    • Jay Altieri

      286 cyrus stirred in spirit. I agree, my point is that all of those emotions and verbs that you list come from the psyche: take action, vigorously desire, driving a man, having zeal. Those were your words. If it includes thought and action, then by definition, a priori, it must come from the psyche. I think you are playing musical chairs with the definition of spirit and soul, which makes this very confusing. My point has been from the beginning that frequently metaphor, figures of speech are used. If you take it woodenly literal it will off kilter the very meaning of the words, in which case nothing has meaning.

      291- my comment that not all Israel was dead was in #266 ref to Rom 15:27. Your taking what I said there +applying it to 1Cor10:3-4 from post 268. I’m not sure if that is a fair crossover, but anyway Yes Israel with Moses was spiritually dead. Even Moses was dead, because Jesus was the firstborn. If you want to come down hard on me for believing that Jesus was prime, unique trailblazer, the first human (after Adam’s short stint) to be in God’s spiritual presence, then weigh your words carefully, Because so many other doctrines are affected by the Primacy of Christ.
      Spiritual means (get your dictionary out) of the spirit realm, not physical or worldly. It comes from the root word meaning breath. Breath invisibly animates the body as (this is now simile-metaphor) the spirit realm (Gary’s 2nd circle) animates the physical realm (1st circle)
      In 1Cor 10:3 it is used to mean miraculous/not physical. They did not eat invisible food. It never says that ancient Israel was spiritually alive, I think you read that into the text.
      In Rom 15:27 Israel has received non-physical blessings again. It is speaking of believers (Rom 15:25), the blessing they were given is salvation by the gospel of Christ(Rom 15:19). Although again it does not say that they were spiritually alive, I think following Jesus they are.

    • patrick


      Hope you are sitting down.

      Where was Jesus for those 3 days? You…think he was conscious…in sheol/ab…& took field…trips to preach to spirits of men, who have…no body, but were…alive & functioning?: As Yeshua stated, He was in the depths of the earth those 3 days. I believe Him. Do you? I’ve said that He preached law & proclaimed grace to anteD spirit/souls (you believe in living flesh/souls). The anteDs ALL BELIEVED IN GOD, He wasn’t a Lawgiver, & so no Judge. They had a Creator that initially had little-to-no expectations of His creatures.
      Digression: God gave no demonstration of His Sovereignty, besides setting a cherub guard against return into Eden (perhaps He was viewed by the majority as the reclusive Grouch-King). God, to the anteDs, was essentially a King with no apparent teeth (like the world today sometimes portrays) a feeble Old Man w/ a long white beard: He told Adam he would die in the day he ate of the tree, but Adam endured another 900+ yrs; He said a seed would come to crush the serpent, but it didn’t come; He told Cain he would be a vagabond, but Cain immediately went & built a city to live in; the 1st ref to the cursed earth comes at the time of the birth of Noah (1,056AM), or 56 yrs into the new Epoch Day 1 (& was obviously a new thing based on Lamech’s words), because God only did good during His Mil. Sab. rest – so no Gen.3 curses came until 1k yrs after the eviction – so the majority of anteDs probably viewed God as slack, as some count slackness …

    • patrick

      … They told Him, “Depart from us!” (Job 22:15-18). They did not fear Him at all because of His disregarded goodness. Even Abel, w/ his acceptable sacrifice of blood & death, probably didn’t understand what it was he was offering. Did He really comprehend that his acceptable sacrifice represented God’s Son’s future bloody atoning death? More likely, in my view, he was repeating what God Himself had already done when He initially clothed his mom & dad – slayed innocent animals. Man really took animal sacrifice (& even human) & ran w/ it because THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND GOD. Able probably understood his offering as a covering (clothes) to prevent shame, instead of a sacrifice (innocent shed blood) to cover sins. Who of the anteDs understood God, & what was their basis of understanding? Men later began to call on God’s name because they saw the consequence of having demanded His departure – something came in to fill the void (FAs). But these were not reclusive/slack, but social/vigorous. They taught man many wicked things that persist to the present. Man was wicked after the fall, yes, & perhaps even more so than today, but only because the earth remained un-cursed for 1k yrs, leaving man more free time to develop evil. They, like we, needed condemnation/restoration. And God’s Deliverer, prophesied to crush the serpent’s head, would provide both – but not in their days! God responded to the few who called on His name about the time of Enoch (1st Melchizadekian priest because no laws were yet given, save to Adam), foretelling them of a coming judgment. These began to understand (like Yeshua’s disciples) that the things their Creator spoke about were not things that would immediately come to pass. …

    • patrick

      … At that point in time it can clearly be seen that the purebred men of Seth’s righteous (God-fearing) line clearly began to dwindle – 2 occurrences of 180 yrs between gens instead of 65 yrs – Noah waited 500 yrs before he had triplet sons that would carry over into the new (cursed) world, complete w/ God-given laws. The 1st age (dispensation) closed. God has therefore gone on record (w/ preserved anteD witnesses) that sinful man cannot live on a good (un-cursed) earth & rule himself w/o God. The results lead to a hedonistic violent race of man bent on destroying themselves & the world. The latter end of this same dispensation also demonstrates God’s worthiness over that of malukim, who would turn mankind into an horrific mutant & unredeemable master race in order to establish who is the mightiest ruler (their view of worthiness) among them.
      End Digress.
      As Yeshua hung on His cross He took on all the sins of the world, but, oddly enough, He was innocent of any personal sin. He was prime in this way: that He was the first to be sinless in a sinful world. That made Him the only potential key to reopen that long shut door to the spiritual realm (lobotomy, not beheading). My view sees Death trying to take Him, but not successfully; although Yeshua should have died for 1 single lie, yet the wages of sin kept futilely washing over Him in billows over His head – but He would not die (drown). He completely emptied the 1st Universal Bank of Sin of all its funds & still endured upon His cross. …

    • patrick

      … Then, after plundering the strong man’s house, He freely surrendered His life BY HIS OWN WILL (no one takes My life, but I given it up freely – the Father has granted Me power to lay down My life & to take it up again, etc..) in order to
      1) deposit His 1st follower in AB (aka Paradise), as promised, & spend the day among those fellow resting souls now basking in the Spirit’s life-giving presence,
      2) deliver the law/grace messages to the anteDs, probably in Tartarus (living spirits imprisoned – similar to FAs, who no doubt also heard the messages as well – things which angelos desire to look into?), so the AnteDs would finally understand the goodness & severity of God,
      3) secure the keys to Hades & Death, probably from the place of torment, in a glorious show of triumphant invincibility & a new living hope,
      & 4) confirm to God & all creatures above, on & under the earth that Yeshua indeed, & alone, was worthy to become the Messiah.
      All in all a busy itinerary for the Son of God/Son of Man, whose body was all the while dead (but incorruptibly preserved & awaiting His res), whose spirit He commended back to God (which caused His soul to depart from His body), BUT, BY GOD’s SPIRIT (1Pet.3:18-19) yet abiding in Him, His still CONSCIOUS soul descended into the depths of SHEOL to do all the things He is precisely attested to have done there in that real spiritual realm.

    • patrick


      who are Daniel’s people?: Genetic Israelites. Dan.12:1-2 is clear. The actual wordage is, “the sons of your people” and it also says, “your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book”, so its just Daniel’s kin. The next verse clears it up further in that some of his people will awake to everlasting life, while some will awake to EVERLASTING (not temporary and then Poof! To ashes) contempt.

    • Jay Altieri

      291- I fully agree with your olive tree comments. You will like my church-Israel study.
      Then you ask several questions:”Who were full set of branches in the living, spiritual, olive tree.” Rom 11 never uses the word “spiritual”, so your question is biased and not right. The olive tree is a symbol for God’s people (Israel).The roots were the OT saints:David+Hez, etc. It never says anything about them being spiritual. The branches are NT saints (both Hebrew and gentile). Read my paper to more fully answer the rest of your questions: http://www.deadsoulsyndrome.com/church%20israel.htm

      Biblically a Jew and an Israelite are identical, although there may be a difference in modern lingo. Jew being a religion +Israelite being a nationality. Jew is a contraction of Judah, which is synecdoche for all Israel, first used in Persian days. It is freqly used in Neh+ Estr. After the exile, all the tribes returned or at least a remnant to qualify as quorum. Sorry, no 10lost tribes.
      By NT period, Jew meant a person from Judea with a strong nationalistic sense.
      The word is used in Acts 9:22 and John 11:8 referring to men of the unsaved nation. This is where the semantic problem starts. Jew can mean someone from Judea, which would include rebellious Pharisees, or it is also frequently pictured as God’s special people. That 2nd use is NOT equivalent to the 1st use. The same word is used in 2 diff ways (homonym). God’s people obey, thus it rules out the apostate rabbinic Pharisaic types.
      Rom 2:28 Paul plays a PUN game with this homonym. Rev 3:9 is an excellent example of this pun. These were ethnic/national Jews but they opposed the gospel, so Jesus calls them fake-jews. Yes, I am a Jew, a son of Jacob adopted into the tribes.

    • Jay Altieri

      The Jew-Israelite question brings up a very old post, that I was going to let slip, but I see here the relevance. Scroll way up for review to #157. No we are not part of Dry Bones. I believe that you are mixing your metaphors from Eze 37 +Rom 11. Olive tree is portrayed as body of God’s people. Some are grafted in and become Israelites, others are cut off to die. The body of Christ is never displayed as dead rattling bones. True Israel (God followers) are full of life+spirit. In Rom 11 unbelieving Jews are branches “cut off” from the olive tree. This is reminiscent of many sins in the Law for which a person was “cut off” from his people (Ex12:19; Lev 17:4, etc).

      The Heb word for cut off is karet ; it means death. There were numerous sins in Torah eg: idol worshiping, adultery, eating blood, copying temple incense recipe, and big bunch other sins. They all carried the death penalty. You don’t cut someone off and they still live elsewhere in exile or in separation. This is capital punishment and justly so, for the wages of sin is death. So in NT when Paul uses cut off language in Rom 11:22, I think it means death for those branches. Life is only available in Jesus. Pruned wood is destroyed in the fire (Mat 3:10).

      This is where Eze37 starts. The 2 houses of Judah and Isr (Eze 37:16-17) will return, those cut off dead branches, and receive life. So no, we are not part of the dry bones+ unsaved Isr is not part of Rom 11 olive tree (yet).

    • Jay Altieri

      308-Dan 12:2 Are believing gentiles written in the book? Of course they are. Thus Daniel’s people are God’s people. Not genetic Israelites but true Israelites.

      It does not say that some of YOUR people wake up to everlasting contempt. Genitive case (possessive finial kaf) is not used.
      A multitude awakes from the dust, this multitude includes Daniel’s people and a bunch of others too. Those written in the Book of Life (Daniel’s people+Michael’s people) receive eternal life with a glorified body. Many others awake [1000yrs later at GWTJ] for everlasting contempt. This fits perfectly within my paradigm. “Contemp” is better translated “abhorance.” The word is only used 1other x in Bible.
      Isa 66:24 notice the wicked are loathsome-abhored-contemptable to all MANKIND. Not to God, but to people.

      Mankind retaining a memory of the failed rebellion is again seen in Rev 14:11 does not say that sinners burn forever, it says that the smoke (memory?) of their torment is forever. I think some symbolism is involved. It means that the righteous will remember to never again rebel against God. The individual people involved in that rebellion will be totally forgotten. Their name will not exist, for it was blotted out of existence like Haman’s name at Purim. So The everlasting contempt is in the mind of the righteous.

      God’s wrath will pass. He will mete out justice and be satisfied. God will not go through eternity with a chip on His shoulder or His panties in a wad. As if He were still brooding over those unsaved rebels. Instead, I believe that His wrath will be satiated by blood, the blood of the wicked. Then His wrath will pass: Ps 30:5; Isa 54:7-8; Ps 78:38; Isa 12:1; Hos 11:9; 14:4; Mic 7:18

    • patrick


      bananas on wed: I think Saul’s oath was binding, & why Jon died. J was a righteous man, but this is a minor point. Your comments on Paul’s conversation w/ Ananias (HP) were interesting, but I see no sarcasm here. Paul would have been “out of touch” w/ the priesthood for a while. Priests rotated the HP position, so it may not have been apparent to Paul to whom he was shouting. I find it odd, though, that the HP would not be known on sight by dress, seat, etc.. Paul had no more angry words for him, & was out of line per the law. He was penalized for not knowing, but accepted correction. I don’t believe Annas=Ananias. Do you?

      all un-martyred believers res…into GTrib: That’s what I believe Scriptures teach. This is the core fundmntl diff I have w/ church doct. Nowhere is, “believers die & go to heaven” stated in Scripture. There are passages that may seem to indicate this, if 1 does not pay attention, but all such passages ALWAYS use special terms. Isn’t it odd regarding the lack of directness about a topic of such fundamental import (& comfort) to the church? It should be clearly stated several times, if true. There are other passages that make this doct impossible, but scholars(!) have given alternate interps to such. Church doct teaches salvation = eternal life (EL). Whereas I have no doubt that salvn can certainly LEAD to EL, I believe salvn = life from the dead. Huge difference. Yeshua came to redeem man from a certain & otherwise inescapable death. His res is the work. In so doing, He will take us all right back to Adam’s origl test that he failed. He takes us thru trib, not around. You can’t see my “born again” because you “die & go to heaven.” My “born again” (in its most literal sense) comes near the end of the age (harvest), when we will rise & fulfill the lion’s share of our ministry! No longer disciples (as today), but apostles. As I’ve said, ‘bring on your “die & go to heaven” verses.’

    • patrick


      Jaywalking…There are no fake excuses at the GWTJ, God knows what you knew: Why did God give law? We needed no tutor, & God & I both know I broke His Creation laws – whatever those are! That vs doesn’t apply. Rom.1:18-21 states the context (who & why they will experience God’s wrath). But you said it – God DOES excuse for valid ignorance (about His law). “Where THERE IS NO law, THERE IS NO condemnation.” It’s not to say the Father will dismiss sinful acts committed in ig, but to say that God won’t allow the excuse of me saying that I was ig about WHAT HIS LAW SAID. Sin entered the world ONLY thru Adam breaking the 1 law, not some random “Creation law” oopsy. That much is clear. &, “sin is not imputed when THERE IS NO law.” What are you going to do w/ that? I get a free pass? When Paul states, ‘Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned ACCORDING TO THE LIKENESS of the transgression of Adam …,’ what is his meaning? That He punished anteDs anyway, because they all knew they were sinning? I don’t think so. Rom.5:18 can’t stand up w/out 1st being prefaced by Rom.5:14, to put it in context. “Nevertheless …” Something funny was going on pre-Mabool. & law #2 (to ALL men) came just after. Coincidence?

      you support a 2nd chance for all who have not had…opportunity w/ the specific gospel criteria: If they hadn’t received a law from God (anteDs), God wouldn’t have been able to condemn them. If some haven’t heard the gospel, then they haven’t yet rejected Him. If salvation is life from the dead, & not dying & going to heaven, then, like Lazarus, who got a 2nd chance, evil men will die again by rejecting Him. Laz wasn’t raised because Yeshua had already died – He was raised as a sign. Thankless lepers were cleansed. Big deal? You raise them up before a GWT; I raise them up so all will witness the clear choices made. Lot of Adams, ready to fall again. You will see it and marvel.

    • Jay Altieri

      Patrick, You admit to a belief in an immortal soul. You do realize that phrase is never found in Scripture? I’m still puzzled with your ideas, as I suppose you are with mine, let me try to get your theory straight:
      Humans are B-S-S. When we die, the spirit which is always good, returns to heaven (contra John 3:13), except Bible speaks of prideful spirits but they are still good anyway. Disembodied +disensouled spirit has limited emotion and function(apriori, logically confused with our agreed upon def of soul). Dead body has zero emotion and function (Agreed). Soul=mind (Agreed). Soul is in Sheol without spirit or body. Soul has no consciousness for most of the time, although mind is never dead, it is in a coma. Except at odd times they wake up and talk (contra Job 14:14). Soul has no body to communicate and no spirit for communion, How do they talk? Neph +Abbadon are also in Sheol, but since they are not human they are awake all the time.
      AnteD’s are the exception to everything. Their spirit did not go to God (Ecc 12:7), instead it went with its soul to Sheol, so Jesus could preach to them while he himself was dead, which is an exception to the exception.
      Resurrection of Jesus did not effectually change anything, same system applies before Easter as afterwards.
      Being a believer does not effectually change anything, unless you are literally martyred. Even those who die in Christ (Contra John 11:25-26) will die again at GTrib.
      How did I do? Do you notice any anomalies in this teaching?

      292 Gal 4:17 I think means possibility of losing salvation is real, but not easy, I know some Xp’s that think every time we mess up we lose salvation. They’re always going down front to get re-saved. That’s silly. But others, believe in eternal security, that no matter what you do-you can’t lose it. That too is biblically incorrect. There is a ditch on both sides of the road. I’ve written on this somewhere and will look for a link, if interested.

    • Jay Altieri

      283/312- un murdered Christians in heaven. We talked about this a long time ago. I think thief on cross is an example of unmrdered belivr in heaven. Paradise=3rd hvn per 2 Cor 12:2,4. Rev 2:7 Jesus is the tree of life (not magical fruit). Jesus went to the Father in hvn. Thus, Paradise =hvn. Note that I do not think Jesus or thief went to paradise/heaven that same day. They died and went to grave in unconsciousness only that day. But later, after Res together they entered heaven.

      Also I think 1 Thes 4:14 “those who have fallen asleep in Jesus” return WITH Him displays that all spirits ofsaints are in heaven not just martyrs. Thessalonians had been itchy for the Parousia, people had died (yes many were martyred, but surly some of them had plain died natural deaths). Paul tells them this for comfort.

      Then of course, there are the std vss used by Evangelicals to support immediate translation of a Christian’s consciousness (soul) into heaven. I’m sure you’ve already considered these, we’ve probably already mentioned them: Phil 1:23-24; 2Cor 5:6-9; John 11:25; John 14:19; 2Cor 13:4; 1Thes 4:17 EVER be with Lord; 1Thes 5:2; Tim 2:11; Rom 14:9 (being Lord involves consciousness). If you want I will exegete each of these for you.
      Possibly the strongest is 1Thes 5:10-Even if we’re sleeping (dead) you are living with Jesus (in Spirit). Notice that this was addressed to greater Thessalonika. It was meant to be a circular letter. Churches copied it and sent mss down the path to other churches. Another words is is for ALL believers, not just murdered.

      Baal cycle Ugarit tablets are at Claremont CA. They were excavated in 1929 by Schaeffer.
      Bill Schniedewind, UCLA, an old college friend of mine has written on this. Google it.

    • Jay Altieri

      However, having said that all true believers after Calvary Res “go to heaven when they die” (where Jesus currently resides), you are correct that this is not emphatically point blank stated. As such soul sleep for Christians is not a terrible doctrine. There are much more important topics to debate. If you die today and go to heaven for a few decades or even if Jesus tarries for 1000yrs, that is a drop in the bucket compared to the final state of eternity. The Big Enchilada is the resurrection for eternal life. We will live forever in a glorified body upon a restored earth. This is where I am concerned with your martyred in the GT idea.
      Christians get resurrected to die again? So the resurrection is not a glorified body immune from death per 1Cor15?
      We get another mortal body for a 2nd chance?
      Then after we are martyred in the GT, we get resurrected again? This time permanently.
      I find no biblical support for a temp resurrection during the GT.

      The way I see it: at the Parousia (post GT) Jesus appears, comes, is made manifest for all to see. He comes with great pomp and glory, the parade of a king. Dead bodies of Xp erupt from the grave to meet their own spirit+soul who are returning with Jesus. B-S-S merge to form a holistic person with Glorified Body (GB). Those who are still alive (currently with B-S-S)are transformed into a GB of the resurrection.

      These GBs will be like Jesus’ resurrected body (Phil3:21; 1John 3:2; Rom 8:29). We know that Jesus’ resurrected body is immune to death Rom 6:9. He cannot die, thus if we are to become LIKE Jesus at the resurrection, we will be immune to death.
      This is the whole point of the resurrection.
      So, I have problems with your idea of resurrection for the purpose of re-dying during GT.

    • patrick


      Dan 12:2…A multitude awakes from the dust, this multitude includes Dan’s people & a bunch of others too: I agree, but the passage itself is particular to Dan’s hereditary people. Just because it is exclusive to Dan’s kin doesn’t mean there will be no others included in receiving everlasting life/condemnation. Interesting you place the conventional 1k yrs between the res of the righteous & the wicked here. I place them as simultaneous. The wicked inside of Israel & the church must be judged 1st. Correct? Judgment begins at the house of the Lord. The wicked pretenders (both hereditary Israelites & those w/in the Church) will be cast alive into the LoF toward the end of Messiah’s 2nd coming (post-Armageddon), because both will have defected from the flock, & be wearing the mark of the beast. These are taken, along w/ anyone else bearing the mark & thrown in alive. The post-millenial kingdom GWTJ (Rev.20) involves mortals (the nations) that entered into the mil. kingdom, but either died for their wickedness, or were swayed into siding w/ Gog, plus all those (non-res’ed) wicked souls that rejected God during the (current) age of grace. As such, these are judged by works (i.e., “books”). The BoL only seems to be opened as confirmation that none of the names were ever entered.

      Mankind retaining a memory of the failed rebellion is again seen in Rev 14:11: “And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST and his image, AND whoever RECEIVES the mark of his name.” Note the present tenses involved, not past.

      Interesting that you believe the wicked will not suffer forever & ever, but those who haven’t heard the gospel won’t get a second chance, whereas I maintain the wicked will suffer forever, & God will give those who haven’t heard the true gospel a second chance. Which interp provides more grace to the righteous, & more wrath to the wicked?

    • Jay Altieri

      Saul’s foolish vow+Paul’s smart talk. Even if Saul is binding and Paul is wrong, these are cases of breaking an existing law out of ignorance. The whole AnteD topic (Bananas on Wed) is about retroactive laws. ie: creating laws after the behavior has been performed.
      Noah+Moses made laws AFTER AnteD’s were already dead. Jesus bringing law to AnteDs is a retroactive judgment which is not fair. Saul+Paul are not relevant.

      Jesus preaching MLaw to men is unnecessary. Rom 5:18 adam’s sin results in condemnation already. But that condemn is different for @person. This is why I don’t think 2nd chance is needed. God is gracious +some of them may be saved anyway. Some have a stiffneck others relatively humble. God knows+will judge justly. Agreed that God overlooks many sins + in the end, I think a few aborigines and other unevangelized will be saved +achieve the Res. Script says that some (a remnant) from EVERY tongue, every nation will be saved (Rev 5:9; Rev 7:9). This includes AnteDs. Thus even if their nation never heard the gospel (eg:anteDs, pre-contact Inca, pre-Capt Cook Polynesians), the humble will be saved. God judges based on the attitude of the heart, not the memory banks of the brain. He doesn’t need to resurrect them for a second chance, because he already knows what their heart is. Graciously a remnant will be saved. Heb 9:27 ONCE to die. No 2nd chance. No 2nd martyrdom in GT.

      297 will HS be around LoF until the wicked have paid their sin debts, & then depart from them? Consider Rev 14:10 Jesus is there. HS is the Spirit of Jesus (Acts 16:7; Phil 1:19). “Abide” however is not the correct word. But yes, He will be in town till the party’s over. Jesus will not enjoy seeing His enemies suffer. He is not a sadist, vindictive, punitive, nor spiteful. Justice will be served. Capital punishment with equally balanced reciprocity will be achieved. Then their flame will go out (Prov 24:20) and eternity will ENTIRELY be glorifying to God

    • Jay Altieri

      317 more grace and more wrath? God’s grace is abounding (2Cor 9:8). It overflows our limited capacity to comprehend (1Tim 1:14). Another words His grace is soooo huge, we can’t understand it. His grace is only limited by Himself, +He is infinite-has no limits. Thus His grace is limitless+infinite. Grace is a personality trait of YHWH, it is His character. Thus grace is eternal, as is agape. Afterall, grace is the manifestation of agape. They are closely related. Love never ceases (1Cor 13:8), so grace never ceases. I am hesitant to debate any theory that stretches my mind as to the boundless magnitude of God’s grace.

      However, I don’t think your theory of 2nd chance is more grace. It is another test, which you yourself say many will fail. Tests come with condemnation, thus it is not grace.

      MORE wrath is not just, fair, level balanced, honest scales (Prov 16:11). God is not looking for more wrath. He is looking for reciprocal equivalency. Wrath is not a character trait of God’s nature (see #311 for wrath ceasing), so wrath is not eternal and infinite. The finite measure of wrath must be balanced equal +opposite to the crime. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth will be the standard. The Eye+Tooth command from Lev 24:20 is about balance of reciprocity. This is Newton’s 3rd Law of Physics. It is true for motion within the universe, as it is also true of justice for sin.

      So, dear Patrick, I dispute both of your charges. You don’t have more grace, you have another test. You definitely do have MORE wrath, but that is precisely why the theory is unbiblical.

      PS- How do you handle reciprocity within your paradigm? Do you admit that equivalency is a biblical standard? (some traditionalists deny it all together). Be blest and may God’s grace overflow within you life.

    • Jay Altieri

      300 it sounds as if you are proposing a dual consciousness. The spirit is awake in heaven and the soul in sheol is sleeping but not dead, sometimes stirred. Do the 2 separate consciousnesses ever conflict? It sounds schizophrenic. How can they both be the seat of thoughts? Do you propose that bodies have consciousness in and of themselves?

      The way that I see it: soul is the exclusive seat of thoughts/emotion/consciousness. So anytime you read about thoughts/emotion, it a priori must be referencing soul. Body +spirit are vessels that contain soul. Body +spirit are analogous. Body is physical, spirit is immaterial (of Gary’s 2nd circle)

      If martyrs are in heaven with soul+spirit, were OT martyrs in heaven too? Abel? Isaiah (traditionally sawn in half)? Zechariah from Lk 11:51? Were OT martyrs immediately in heaven, beating Jesus to the punch? Before answering that, pls review my Enoch+Elijah paper.

      301-Yes, I consider locusts in the Pit as Ds. We are never told what FA or D actually look like. Who knows? Some weird looking cherub and seraph have animal traits. Obviously locusts are not literal insect. Those are harmless. These are Ds.
      2Pet2:4 KEPT UNTIL the judgment is misleading. All it says is that they are ultimately not going to go scotfree. They WILL be judged. It does not say that they must sit in prison entire time till then. Compare Acts 25:21 same word Paul is KEPT for hearing of Sebastos, (ESV note “in custody” not in text), but he still makes some side detours enroute (Crete, Malta, etc). Thus FA in 2Pet2:4 are eligible for a romp. Furthermore note that to be KEPT doesnot always indicate a prisoner. Saints are KEPT by God (1Thes 5:23 ), yet we not not bound in a jail. Believers KEEP the Word of God’s law (1John 2:3), yet the Word is not hostage. I like KJV translation as “reserved ” better than the modern translations.Idea that FAs in 2Pet 2:4 KEPT for judgment, requiring immobility isnt founded by word study in Greek.

    • F Patricia McEachrane-Gross

      When Adam was created, he became a living soul (being); when Adam died and the breath given to him by God left his body, he became a dead soul (being).
      This is hardly understood, even among Christians. Great confusion exists because most of the world has accepted the lie of the Serpent to Eve when he said “You surely will not die!” even though God clearly expressed otherwise to Eve and to later generations (examples: Ezekiel 18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.” Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”)
      Jesus must have had a hurting heart as He was telling the story of the rich man and Lazarus, as He tried to show, by using the ridiculous, how far the “teachers in Israel” had strayed from the truth about God .
      Satan has perpetuated that lie about the immortal soul since the Garden of Eden and many have been detrimentally influenced by it, whether Jew or Gentile, believer or unbeliever. He is ramping up the influence of the lie with the increasingly significant impact of New Age and spiritualistic ideas on Christianity.
      We no longer interpret the meaning of the word “soul” according to the context in which it is used. It’s incredible to read discussions about where “souls” might be after death but I shouldn’t be amazed because it’s par for the course to go to funerals and hear about people who have gone straight to heaven (believers or unbelievers). Ironically, no one seems to have gone straight to hell at a funeral, although one would assume, according to common non-biblical belief, the wicked also receive their reward at death – eternal lives, writhing in agony.
      Whatever happened to God’s clear Word? Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” When our Savior hung on the cruel cross, did He not demonstrate the agony the unbeliever will feel when separated from God at the final judgment? Did He not accept on our behalf,the wages of sin in His sinless body? If the wage of sin is eternal burning in hell, why did Jesus not experience that at the cross?
      But for those who accept the enemy’s great lie, “You surely will not die,” they have to accept the immortality of the soul in heaven or in hell. They dare not accept the beautiful truths of God’s Word:
      “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” Romans 6.
      50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 15
      I am thankful for this Visual of my Savior giving me the gift of immortality at His Second Coming – it’s one of the most beautiful descriptions in the Bible and one of the strongest weapons of defense against the strong delusions that are about to overtake this world – “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:24. MARANATHA!

    • Henry Vongxay

      I have to define first the definition of saved as written in the Bible.

      (Matthew 1:21)
      “She [Mary] will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

      Jesus recognizes that we are born into slavery. Man is only concerned about eternal life, but forget to address the underlying problem, which is sin. Heaven is something that we walk into when we walk with Christ. If we walk with sin we walk to eternal fire. Sin is the main issue of humanity, bottom line. Jesus came to deal with it.

      In todays culture, we have connected having eternal life with the term “saved,” but it is referring to saved from slavery, or the hold of satan.

      (John 5:4)
      “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin”

      This is the very important concept that is not understood. When we die, we are free from the bondages of sin. In other words, we are no longer slaves to sin when our mortal bodies die. We do not have to wait until our mortal bodies die to be set free from sin. God/Jesus provided a means to be saved (set free from slavery) through baptism.

      (Romans 6:3-7)
      “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the father, we too may live a new life [meaning on earth and heaven]. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like him. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin – because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.”

      Jesus also tells us,

      (John 8:36)
      “So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” [From the bondages of sin]

      For those that do not think that baptism has any significance, you are wrong. It is the response and action we take to the gospel we heard.

      (Acts 2:38)
      Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”

      (Mark 16:16)
      “Whoever beleives and is baptized will be saved [from sin], but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

      Baptism is not a work, so the concept of salvation though faith by grace still holds. We were told to repent and be baptized. Repentance and baptism is a response to the gospel. If you categorize baptism as a work, then you are saying that repentence is also a work and saying that we do not have to do anything.

      With that said, there is no good arguement for the non-existance of Paradise or Abraham’s Bosom.

      In the heart of earth, Hades/Paradise or Abraham’s bosom, there is great chasm. Lazarus and Abe would not be about to communicate if Abe was in heaven.

      Also, one the cross, Jesus said,

      (Luke 23:43)
      “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

      Guess what, that day, Jesus did not go to heaven. He did not ascend for another 3+40 days. Abraham’s Bosom is Paradise, not heaven. When Jesus went to defeat Satan, he went to Hades/Abraham’s Bosom and took all from Abraham’s Bosom.

      (Ephesians 4:7-10)
      “That is why it says:
      ‘When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.’
      (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than add the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

      I pray that this clears up things.

    • Jenna

      Wrong, wrong, wrong. We clearly know that nobody goes to heaven. We find clearly that the one one to do so was the one who descended from heaven (John 3:13). All the dead will be gathered from the dust, some to eternal life in Yahshua, some to perish (Daniel 12:2; John 5:29). Y’all need to read what’s right there in your Bibles (and not some ol’ Not Inspired Version–the NIV) and not just parrot back what someone has told you. You’re understanding of Roman Churchianity is complete–and completely wrong.

      • Jerry Parks

        Jenna, what do you do with the statement by Paul: “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? 2Cor 5:8

      • Woodie Williams

        John 3:13 was spoken by Jesus before His resurrection. 1 Cor. 15:20, Col. 1:18, Rev. 1:5, speak of Jesus being the first born from the dead. The reason is that He (Jesus) might come to have first place in everything.

    • Woodie Williams

      Jenna, also look at John 14:3…in which Jesus says He is preparing a place, will return, that where I am you may be also. If that place isn’t heaven (and it is) then that’s ok because I’ll be with Jesus.

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